At 62 I moved yards of river rock and bark dust with a shovel and wheel barrel. I'm no beast but months of doing kettlebell swings made it easier and I had no back or any other pain afterwards. Forty years ago I would have felt it. For me, it's the best exercise there is.
Yup. Kettlebells have really made me strong in the day to day tasks. I got very strong with barbells but the kettlebell seems like it gives great endurance for playing basketball with the kids, doing heavy yardwork, helping the neighbor bring a mattress upstairs, etc.
Value is in the eye of the beholder. Personally kettlebells are one of my favorite things to use. People who don't like them oh well. Everyone is different and I hope people find what works for them. I really appreciate Dan because brings common sense to an industry full of dogmatic thinking.
Variety. I do barbell work. Dumbbell work. Kettlebell work. Bodyweight work. Nothing can replace the KB Clean and Press. Amazing exercise. KB Front Squats are brutally hard. I'm not big into the ballastics and I think that's what Rippetoe is suggesting
Mark has certainly got a result he wanted. People talking are kettlebells useless. I’ve been training for 40 years. Training with kettlebells for the last 15 years. They are fantastic piece of equipment for all round fitness. I don’t want to be a bodybuilder or power lifter. I want to be mobile strong conditioned. I 54 years old and fitter than most people half my age I know. So kettlebells are not useless only of benefit if used correctly like anything else. Seems some people just enjoy getting an effect by saying something negative
I trained a young power lifter many years ago on hardstyle swings and clean/press. His DL went from 485lbs to 515. Squat 425 to 435 and bench 315 to 335. Why did it happen?? Pavel explains it. Unfortunately today, people are not training to be healthy. They try to validate themselves on being on the forefront of training. I have yet to meet someone like Pavel.
This post convinced me to subscribe. Hearing that kettlebell swings are tackles is convincing me to look into it. I'm still playing Rugby at 56 and I need to get back that scary tackling I used to have.
@@DaveCollins123 Yes, it's a tool, and it happens to be the the most EFFICIENT one if someone wants to get big and strong. Allows for maximal/incremental loading
@@DaveCollins123 This comment just tells me you've not spent years meaningfully training with both implements, to reach a conclusion countless others have
I was coached by Scott Abel many years ago, and used dumbbells a lot, and dumbbells are my first choice. Barbell, dumbbells, kettlebell. They are tools not a religion. I use them all.
I’m team Pavel on this one, inasmuch as he’s said that these two exercises work well enough as general physical prep that the average human will be strong/mobile enough to handle most any sport at a competent amateur level PLUS have time for work/life.
I would love to see you and Mark do another podcast!! I have done training based on recommendations from both of you and I think it would be a very good conversation.
Hi Dan, I read a great article several years back on Dragon Door of SHW powerlifting champ Donnie Thompson being introduced to Kettlebell training and him crediting it to not only improve but also prolong his powerlifting. I like to think if someone who can total 3000lbs finds them useful, I'm sure most of us can too 😉
Rippetoe sells barbell training at a fundamental level with a very specific program (at least he did a decade ago when I read Starting Strength). For him to admit that kettebells are useful, he would then have to tell you how/where/when to include them in his program and then you wouldn't be doing the program and it would eff up all his sh*t. I moved beyond the Rippetoe "dogma" years ago but there are some really significant takeaways I got from Starting Strength that I still carry with me today and that matters. But beyond that, he's just a guy selling some real basic stuff and in order to increase its value, he has to market it by referring to everything else as too fancy or useless, or whatever. It is what it is. IMO the best thing you can do is approach every coach/literature you're seeking education from with the attitude "there's at least one thing I will take away from this and be able to use." Even if the one takeaway is that you learn what it is you DON'T want to do, or ways you DON'T want to coach. After a couple years as a volunteer then assistant in the weightroom of a D1 football team, most of what I learned from that experience is "that is not how I want to coach when I'm in charge."
He admitted he has 12 of them in the gym. He is obviously full of crap, or admitting he is a complete moron to have bought that many if he thinks they are useless. Either way he comes off badly, which is not unusual for him, I find some of his nonsense humorous.
I don’t know the context of Rippetoes comment but sometimes a coach telling a person something has no value or they suck at something ignites a fire in people to try it for themselves. My BJJ coach did that one time when I was in a slump. I don’t talk to him for a month or more during training sessions and went to the next competition and won gold. I told him afterwards that him giving me negative feedback really motivated me to prove him wrong. Sometimes coaches are wise advocates even if it’s not what you want to hear at the time. I appreciate all your content. It has really helped me over the years. Injury took me out of BJJ and I found your work along with Pavels. I ended up getting certified through strong first a couple years ago not to really be a coach but it really helped me to be better. Thank you for what you do, sir. Much respect!
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach I can see that. At the time, I had been training for about 10 years. So I suppose he knew me long enough to try a different approach. I’m glad he did looking back cause I was on a 2-3 losing streak and just couldn’t get out of my head. I was too focused on how good everyone else was rather than focusing and being confident in what I was good at. It was a long growth process for me.. I appreciate all your content. It has really helped me over the years. Injury took me out of BJJ and I found your work along with Pavels. I ended up getting certified through strong first a couple years ago not to really be a coach but it really helped me to be better. Thank you for what you do, sir. Much respect!
I don’t understand Mark’s comment. I’ve had great benefits from kettlebell training. Even if you prefer barbell, how would you not have benefits from lifting/swinging heavy pieces of iron?
I train at a starting strength gym and some of my coaches were Rippetoes original trainees from Wichita Falls, so I was able to indirectly get some insight into Rip’s mentality. From what I gather, Rip is focused on generalized strength, especially for training novice lifters, and to a lesser extent intermediate lifters. In that context, kettlebells are very suboptimal. There’s also much more to athleticism than raw strength (speed, conditioning, balance, mobility). Additionally advanced lifters often need novel stimuli to continue strength gains. In this context, kettlebells have value, but Rip doesn’t really address these situations.
I train Jiu Jitsu and use Kettlebells primarily as a complement to my program. It's funny because when I train with people at the Gym, they're usually stronger than me. However, when it comes to training Jiu Jitsu, that same person cannot match my strength. Some people only focus on lifting a certain amount of weight, others just want to be stronger in Life.
I used to deadlift heavy, but these days my primary focus is trail running and being "in shape" for life more broadly now I'm 32. The impact kettlebell swings have on running hard up hills is phenomenal. Deadlifts are great, but they just have too much impact on my recovery.
I feel the benefit to kettlebells to barbells is grip and core strength along with endurance, I've trained heavy 9n bars deads squats never got that grip core activation or endurance from a barbell
Great point of view!! When I was first an S&C coach I would only have my athletes do Olympic lifting along with front squats and drills. Their technique got really good, but absolute strength and muscle mass was trash. Dumped the Olympics and went to a more powerlifting style, raw numbers went up, but athleticism was poor and size wasn’t really that great. So on and so forth. Only when I began to incorporate all the tools (Olympics, power lifts, bodybuilding, kettlebells, mobility work, bodyweight work, plyometrics, sleds, sprints, etc) that Fan mentions did I really start to produce high level athletes in my program. Now I spend most of my time planning on how to include as many tools as possible without exhausting the athletes ability to recover and practice their sport.
@montemaxwell3821 I've always done martial arts mostly kickboxing and mma... I've done all physical training from machines bodybuilding style, powerlifting, bodyweight, kettlebells for over 15 yrs, for me nothing made me a better combat athlete with a mix of heavy kettlebells and bodyweight circuits... that's all I use now
I'm one of those who went into COVID lockdowns with just a kettlebell (added gymnastics rings soon after) and I definitely came out much better on the other side. I will go as far as to say that the simplicity of having just one or two pieces of equipment finally made training make sense to me, after years of faffing around and finding excuses to avoid going to the gym. I cannot see myself ever giving up on kettlebell training, although I am working to expand my toolbox as well.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach Very true! Gotta work on being better at training with other people. Now I have 4 good kettlebells, a squat rack, a decent-ish Olympic barbell and about 150kg worth of plates. I'll try to take your advice and find someone to train with.
Thank you for your holistic approach to weight training! I came to the 'iron game' out of endurance running (and I attribute going from marathon to ultra-marathon distances to starting weights with kettlebells). I run less these days, but lift more using barbells, dumb bells, and still use the kettlebells. It's refreshing to see a coach support all those training methods instead of clinging to the opinion that a single method is the best and only one every athlete should use. Specialization is for insects after all!
You're usually asked about kettlebells and barbells/olympic lifting, and that makes sense given your background. But it would be great to see a few videos with your thoughts on how/when/why/with whom to incorporate dumbbells.
That is fantastic. When I was young, we used to lift weights made out of concrete filled and coffee cans. Oddly, it was much more common than I thought as I got older people told me the same story.
When my son was a high school freshman I had him do 3 x 3-5 chins, standing press and squats 3x a week plus optionally one set of pushups AMRAP. He had 14 degree scoliosis in the upper spine and he was only 5-5 110 pounds. He started squatting with a 10 pound medicine ball held in front, and he started with a 15 pound barbell for overhead presses and doing underhand pulldowns with 40 pounds for 3 x 5. In 6 months he was squatting a 60 pound medicine ball, overhead pressing the 45, and could do 1 chin and in a year he weighed 135, front squatted 135 for 5, pressed 95 for 5 and did 20 chins and tested at no scoliosis and he made his schools varsity tennis team. He never liked working out, but he got in and out in 15 minutes 3x per week. I'd say that it was inspired by starting strength. I really think the front squats, presses and chins built up the muscles around the upper spine to straighten that out.
You have common sense and old man wisdom. Dont get a big head now 🤣 internet is mostly nonsense. From a father of many with many responsibilities and ″life happens″ stuff your work is invaluable. Respect.
Aside from achieving very specific goals, I doubt modalities matter much. Body weight, barbells, and kettlebell training all hv their benefits. I enjoy the variety after decades of pull-ups, pushups and running. Be Well!
I see Riptoe's perspective that for building overall strength, and that's all he cares about, why worry about implements other than barbells? I happen to care about other things than how much I Squat and Bench so I have lots of other things in my garage.
Kettlebells are amazing. I was strong before I bought a set. Then the kettlebells made me explosive with endurance. When I go out of town I put 2 53# kettlebells in the car and I get a great workout everywhere.
I've also heard M.R say that cardio is useless because it doesn't produce power. That's when I stopped listening. No surprise he thinks KB's are useless.
Mark also says Hexbars are useless, the reverse hyper is useless, dumbbells are useless, sets of ten are useless and the list goes on. I thought, however, he said that kettlebells make great doorstops for his gym in Wichita Falls.
Keep being " woke" John or as I like to say " being nice. Your knowledge and demeanour are a breath of fresh air in todays current climate. Thanks for everything.
Rippetoe's bombastic, often sarcastic method of delivery, along with a liberal sprinkling of dogma throughout, is what makes his persona what it is. I enjoy his content, as I do yours, but I take it in like I do everybody else's, keeping in mind that, while nobody knows everything, almost everybody has something of value to offer. I have read Rippetoe's Starting Strength and Practical Programming, as well as your book Never Let Go and gleaned valuable insight from all of them.
"If you segment yourself to just your one demographic, then you're extremely limiting your view and your creativity because training is also an art form. There's a science to it, and there's an art to it. If all you know is your own sport, then your creativity is shot." Dave Tate from Muscle & Fitness 2014
Rip’s scope is very narrow, barbells or bust. I took to KBs because of the breadth of of exercises available to do. Plus, I couldn't make a home gym with a rack bench and whole BB set.
I don’t know if Mark said kettlebells were useless - it’s just that the Starting Approach is scientific, efficient, and precise, while kettlebells fall under the category of exercise. Nothing wrong with exercise, but on the other hand the compound lifts properly executed, will develop the entire musculature. Moreover, progressive loading can be much more incremental and precise in terms of gauging progress. Add 5lbs a session for 24 weeks, and all your lifts are heavier than when you started You are objectively stronger If I start with kettlebell swings at 10 lbs, and he up to say, 75, yeah I am stronger but stronger is a very limited range of motion. Moreover there not much of an eccentric phase swings. Anyway, Mark can be an abrasive guy, but about the compound lifts and their pluses, he is absolutely correct.
I've trained all my highschool football OL on the KB's as auxilliary exercises to the 3 big lifts. 1. It excellent for cardio without needing to run. 2. Builds the extensor group like nothing else. 3. Trains excellent technique in support of the big 3: it adds strength and speed. 4. Prevents injuries like nothing else: opens the hiops, knees, and ankles; packs the shoulders. 5. Excellent "in-season" training modality. 6. Once football players realize that the clean-squat-press is functionally the same as hitting / tackling it's a game changer. Add the swing and snatch and it's a full on total body training modality that never needs to be explained or marketed to them. Great channel !
Here's another data point. I trust my 12 and 14 year olds a lot more with kettlebells than screwing around with barbells in the basement. Dont want any avoidable collisions with reality on a bench press. Theyre not to touch the barbells without my supervision but they can train aikido and do kettlebells single file while respecting space for the work. Cheers
Do you do anything with trap bar, Dan? I'm pretty uncomfortable with barbell deadlift too, but the trap bar lets me deadlift real heavy with no mobility issues.
In other videos I've heard Dan say that the trap bar is a fine tool as well. He'd say to keep in mind that trap bar deads aren't an exact 1:1 replacement for straight bar deads.
Fact: "A kettlebell is a cast-iron or cast-steel ball with a handle attached to the top." Opinion: "Kettlebells are useless." Opinions are like you-know-what; everyone has one & they all stink.
Dan, would you agree that improving strength, especially in untrained individuals, will lead to an improvement of all other athletic qualities? Do you also agree that genetic freaks at the top don't "need" any of the icing as they're where they are because of their genetic endowment? Also, I don't think Rip would argue that including the power clean along with the powerlifts would be beneficial to train rate of force development
During my mma career i was a strict ETK guy and was stronger than all the other bantam weights i faced and trained with leading to an 8-1 record. Am i stronger now after 10 years of stongman training? Of course. Im also 40lbs heavier and don't have the stamina i had back then. I'm 39 now and in the future I'll probably do as Dave Tate recommends now and after a comp (no barbell in your hands, no barbell on your back, and nothing under 10 reps for 4 weeks.) And i think KBs would be a greta option during that period.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach I loved ETK. I'm better at programming for myself and making adjustments when I need to but my 20s self needed an idiot proof program like etk.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach Yes, in general, I agree, but for a small apartment, kettlebells and a horizontal bar, I think, may be the best solution. I'm 66 now, and I'm going on... And many thanks for the Single KB ABC. I know that many (like me) have a set of weights of only one of each weight and are looking for the optimal solution in a similar situation... With Greetings from Russia.
Dan ... Currently train every week with a STRONGFIRST elite instructor and have for a decade Have been to STRONGFIRST kettlebell and barbell certifications Attended PAVEL TSATSOLUNE seminars And I've been to the 3 Day STARTING STRENGTH seminar by Mark Rippitoe ... went with my STRONGFIRST instructor ... who was one of the strongest and definitely the fittest person in the room. PAVEL & STRONGFIRST are about Getting Stronger, Moving Better and Staying Healthy ... STRONGFIRST uses kettlebells, barbells & body weight training to help athletes meet their fitness and sport objectives. If you want to Get and Be Strong & Fit for the Game of Life ... listen to them. Rip is exclusively old school BARBELL POWERLIFTING ... if you want to hit a POWERLIFTING PR ... listen to Mark ... Just don't listen to Mark about anything else ... especially if your aim is to be healthy, strong and fit for life. He's an old rowdy, contrary Texas cowboy who's got opinions than a porcupine has quills. And he uses them the same way ... to poke folks. Tom in Texas
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach Dan ... My abuse of the written word is intentional ... i use lowercase i's (a Big i looks like little L, very confusing) ... love ellipsis (them little dot dot dots ... ) ... and use CAPS to make things POP OUT ... got into an argument with my friend Jeff who attended the Naval Academy and has a degree in English about my Abuse of Punctuation ... had to explain the Punctuation works for me, i don't work for it ... ain't my Grammar ... as an Educator it's possible that you are horrified (doubt it) by my abuses of the English system of grammatical correctness ... but since i was abused by more than one English teacher for my incredibly illegible cursive and impertinent punctuation ... it's sorta like my personal revenge. ... but my point in posting (which is a rare thing for me) is i've had the opportunity to spend some time with with both Rip and Pavel ... Rip knows Powerlifting and it's a good place to start for lifters ... got a lot of good from the STARTING STRENGTH seminar ... but Rip also makes a point to say things to piss people off and get a reaction ... which isn't so cool ... Pavel on the other hand is in a league all his own. Has an amazing depth of knowledge and simply doesn't talk trash about anyone or anything (you know them both far better than me and know this ... your readers however, might not). As far as Kettlebell training goes ... Brett Jones, head of SF Education, has developed a program called "iron cardio" based off of Pavel's Strength Aerobics ... our training group has been doing it for the past few month and all our KB Presses have increased ... and our Cardio has improved. He's made it as simple as it gets. This might make for a great post for your fans who are looking for insights into bringing kettlebells into the mix. But wait, you already know all this. Thanks for listening, enjoy your posts. t in texas
😮I guess im supposed to be suprised. Im not. Hes too dogmatic about not liking kettlebell training. Youd think hed support all forms of strength training, even if there are more than a few ways to use them. Dan you handle this great.
Kettlebell training does have value, ask any mma fighter. It just depends on what your goals are. Kettlebell training is great for the combination of cardio and muscle building.
Kettlebells are terrible if you've no idea what you're doing. Same could be said of anything. It's just a tool. Used wrong, it's dangerous. Used correctly it's superb.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach all the best stuff is hard! Mulling over starting a new life in kettlebells as my job in IT isn't going to last what with all this AI stuff taking over jobs
I think it's plausible that Rippetoe has gone way too deep into portraying his starting strength character and became kind of a schizo. and made a religion out of the 20kg olympic barbell.
I would just add that dead hang cleans, clean to press and snatches with KB’s are phenomenally useful for explosive fast twitch muscular development. I embraced the kettlebell in 2006 and have never looked back. I think you believe that there are many ways to use the tool.
I like those clean and press sets where I just do clean and press, clean and press, maybe up to 8s. Honestly, five rounds of that and I am pretty much finished with all i need...
Wow. First I've ever heard of you and you start with "woke means I believe in the value of human dignity in every single person." When you talk to Rip again, ask him what "woke" means.
Take Ripetoe for whats its worth,, he sells a BARBELL training program, of course he's going to sh-t on kettlebells he also sh-ts on trap bars and sumo deadlifts,, take it for what its worth , if you like training with kettlebells nothing Ripetoe says should matter lol.
Ripptoes negative attitude towards kettlebells what's the result of an accident he had with one. That caused a crushed testicle during a Turkish get up.
Rippetoe is pretty knowledgeable about training but he goes off on some weird tangents. He thinks the trap bar is garbage, for instance. As someone who has done my deadlifts with both the trap and the straight bar for years, I'd say he's dead wrong about that.
It cannot be argued that the most effective modality for significant increases in strength is barbell training. I work with a 96 year old lifter- she deadlifts; she presses; she does barbell curls. She cannot, nor could she achieve the same results with a kettlebell that we have achieved with a barbell. The kettlebell doesn't permit us to marginally increase strength and subtly present more stress. After all, that is exactly how strength is gained- stress, recovery and adaptation. My comments should be read with a great respect for Dan John. I have read his work for a number of years and do appreciate his contribution to strength training. - Adam martin (Head Coach, Starting Strength Cincinnati); Owner (Starting Strength Atlanta)
I believe Rip's point can be seen with a thought experiment. Imagine you and your genetic clone starting out as exercise beginners. Your clone starts kettlebell training. You start barbell training, and get your DL to 500, squat to 400, bench press to 300, power clean to 280, overhead press to 250, and weighted pull-ups to 150. _Then_ you start the same kettlebell training program that your clone has been advancing this whole time. After a year of you kettlebell training, who is going to be stronger overall? And who is going to be stronger at kettlebells? Rip's book might have been better titled _Start With Strength._ He has said countless time that whatever your genetic endowment, age, or goals in life, everything is better if you get strong AF _first._ And barbells, with the ability to go up to stupendous weights in 1/4# increments, is the superior tool for that job.
At 62 I moved yards of river rock and bark dust with a shovel and wheel barrel. I'm no beast but months of doing kettlebell swings made it easier and I had no back or any other pain afterwards. Forty years ago I would have felt it. For me, it's the best exercise there is.
That's nice to hear.
Yup. Kettlebells have really made me strong in the day to day tasks. I got very strong with barbells but the kettlebell seems like it gives great endurance for playing basketball with the kids, doing heavy yardwork, helping the neighbor bring a mattress upstairs, etc.
And just think if you’d of done your deadlifts and squats for months instead of swings you’d have no back pain and be way stronger…
"Wheelbarrow".
Value is in the eye of the beholder. Personally kettlebells are one of my favorite things to use. People who don't like them oh well. Everyone is different and I hope people find what works for them. I really appreciate Dan because brings common sense to an industry full of dogmatic thinking.
Agreed.
Variety. I do barbell work. Dumbbell work. Kettlebell work. Bodyweight work.
Nothing can replace the KB Clean and Press. Amazing exercise. KB Front Squats are brutally hard.
I'm not big into the ballastics and I think that's what Rippetoe is suggesting
I'm a big fan of the KB press in all its forms...
Thank you! Your integrity and honesty are very much appreciated in a field filled with hyperbole and snake oil salesman.
I appreciate that!
With the lack of flexibility from injuries and age kettlebells help me do things that just hurt to do with a barbell.
Same here...
Mark has certainly got a result he wanted. People talking are kettlebells useless. I’ve been training for 40 years. Training with kettlebells for the last 15 years. They are fantastic piece of equipment for all round fitness. I don’t want to be a bodybuilder or power lifter. I want to be mobile strong conditioned. I 54 years old and fitter than most people half my age I know. So kettlebells are not useless only of benefit if used correctly like anything else. Seems some people just enjoy getting an effect by saying something negative
That's a truth, isn't it?
I trained a young power lifter many years ago on hardstyle swings and clean/press. His DL went from 485lbs to 515. Squat 425 to 435 and bench 315 to 335. Why did it happen?? Pavel explains it. Unfortunately today, people are not training to be healthy. They try to validate themselves on being on the forefront of training. I have yet to meet someone like Pavel.
Thank you
Thank you for your balanced and nuanced takes in these times of hyperbole. Dan, you are the man
My pleasure.
This post convinced me to subscribe. Hearing that kettlebell swings are tackles is convincing me to look into it. I'm still playing Rugby at 56 and I need to get back that scary tackling I used to have.
I'm glad you did...
Man selling barbell training does not like kettlebells...SHOCK!
No one will argue that the barbell is the most efficient tool to get someone strong over a long period
@@ck-rd2ce Nah, all the body knows is resistance. The BB is just a tool like any other, nothing special about it.
@@DaveCollins123 Yes, it's a tool, and it happens to be the the most EFFICIENT one if someone wants to get big and strong. Allows for maximal/incremental loading
@@ck-rd2ce Yes. all the meatheads say that....
@@DaveCollins123 This comment just tells me you've not spent years meaningfully training with both implements, to reach a conclusion countless others have
I was coached by Scott Abel many years ago, and used dumbbells a lot, and dumbbells are my first choice. Barbell, dumbbells, kettlebell. They are tools not a religion. I use them all.
I agree very much
I’m team Pavel on this one, inasmuch as he’s said that these two exercises work well enough as general physical prep that the average human will be strong/mobile enough to handle most any sport at a competent amateur level PLUS have time for work/life.
I like that..
I would love to see you and Mark do another podcast!!
I have done training based on recommendations from both of you and I think it would be a very good conversation.
Great suggestion!
Love your take, I can't stand the dogma. The greatest tool in training is your mind, if you close it off you're only going to limit your potential.
Well said!
Hi Dan, I read a great article several years back on Dragon Door of SHW powerlifting champ Donnie Thompson being introduced to Kettlebell training and him crediting it to not only improve but also prolong his powerlifting. I like to think if someone who can total 3000lbs finds them useful, I'm sure most of us can too 😉
It's all about the right tool for the job
Good example. My usual one is Andy Bolton, first 1000lb deadlift. Worked with Pavel and has done 92kg+ swings 10x10.
You’re a good man, Dan John. ✊🏻
Thank you!
Maybe make a video titled “The low bar squat is useless”.
It's a great lift for transitioning genders
You’re one of the best teachers, of any kind, on the internet.
Thank you!
Rippetoe sells barbell training at a fundamental level with a very specific program (at least he did a decade ago when I read Starting Strength). For him to admit that kettebells are useful, he would then have to tell you how/where/when to include them in his program and then you wouldn't be doing the program and it would eff up all his sh*t. I moved beyond the Rippetoe "dogma" years ago but there are some really significant takeaways I got from Starting Strength that I still carry with me today and that matters. But beyond that, he's just a guy selling some real basic stuff and in order to increase its value, he has to market it by referring to everything else as too fancy or useless, or whatever. It is what it is. IMO the best thing you can do is approach every coach/literature you're seeking education from with the attitude "there's at least one thing I will take away from this and be able to use." Even if the one takeaway is that you learn what it is you DON'T want to do, or ways you DON'T want to coach. After a couple years as a volunteer then assistant in the weightroom of a D1 football team, most of what I learned from that experience is "that is not how I want to coach when I'm in charge."
He admitted he has 12 of them in the gym. He is obviously full of crap, or admitting he is a complete moron to have bought that many if he thinks they are useless. Either way he comes off badly, which is not unusual for him, I find some of his nonsense humorous.
Thanks for sharing...
I don’t know the context of Rippetoes comment but sometimes a coach telling a person something has no value or they suck at something ignites a fire in people to try it for themselves. My BJJ coach did that one time when I was in a slump. I don’t talk to him for a month or more during training sessions and went to the next competition and won gold. I told him afterwards that him giving me negative feedback really motivated me to prove him wrong. Sometimes coaches are wise advocates even if it’s not what you want to hear at the time. I appreciate all your content. It has really helped me over the years. Injury took me out of BJJ and I found your work along with Pavels. I ended up getting certified through strong first a couple years ago not to really be a coach but it really helped me to be better. Thank you for what you do, sir. Much respect!
I’ve use that tool. It Hass to be used very judiciously.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach I can see that. At the time, I had been training for about 10 years. So I suppose he knew me long enough to try a different approach. I’m glad he did looking back cause I was on a 2-3 losing streak and just couldn’t get out of my head. I was too focused on how good everyone else was rather than focusing and being confident in what I was good at. It was a long growth process for me.. I appreciate all your content. It has really helped me over the years. Injury took me out of BJJ and I found your work along with Pavels. I ended up getting certified through strong first a couple years ago not to really be a coach but it really helped me to be better. Thank you for what you do, sir. Much respect!
I don’t understand Mark’s comment. I’ve had great benefits from kettlebell training. Even if you prefer barbell, how would you not have benefits from lifting/swinging heavy pieces of iron?
exactly!
I train at a starting strength gym and some of my coaches were Rippetoes original trainees from Wichita Falls, so I was able to indirectly get some insight into Rip’s mentality.
From what I gather, Rip is focused on generalized strength, especially for training novice lifters, and to a lesser extent intermediate lifters.
In that context, kettlebells are very suboptimal.
There’s also much more to athleticism than raw strength (speed, conditioning, balance, mobility). Additionally advanced lifters often need novel stimuli to continue strength gains. In this context, kettlebells have value, but Rip doesn’t really address these situations.
I train Jiu Jitsu and use Kettlebells primarily as a complement to my program. It's funny because when I train with people at the Gym, they're usually stronger than me. However, when it comes to training Jiu Jitsu, that same person cannot match my strength. Some people only focus on lifting a certain amount of weight, others just want to be stronger in Life.
That's the million dollar insight...
I used to deadlift heavy, but these days my primary focus is trail running and being "in shape" for life more broadly now I'm 32. The impact kettlebell swings have on running hard up hills is phenomenal. Deadlifts are great, but they just have too much impact on my recovery.
Thanks for sharing!
I feel the benefit to kettlebells to barbells is grip and core strength along with endurance, I've trained heavy 9n bars deads squats never got that grip core activation or endurance from a barbell
Same here...
Great point of view!! When I was first an S&C coach I would only have my athletes do Olympic lifting along with front squats and drills. Their technique got really good, but absolute strength and muscle mass was trash. Dumped the Olympics and went to a more powerlifting style, raw numbers went up, but athleticism was poor and size wasn’t really that great. So on and so forth. Only when I began to incorporate all the tools (Olympics, power lifts, bodybuilding, kettlebells, mobility work, bodyweight work, plyometrics, sleds, sprints, etc) that Fan mentions did I really start to produce high level athletes in my program. Now I spend most of my time planning on how to include as many tools as possible without exhausting the athletes ability to recover and practice their sport.
@montemaxwell3821 I've always done martial arts mostly kickboxing and mma... I've done all physical training from machines bodybuilding style, powerlifting, bodyweight, kettlebells for over 15 yrs, for me nothing made me a better combat athlete with a mix of heavy kettlebells and bodyweight circuits... that's all I use now
He is correct though that kettlebells make excellent door stops
I use my 80 as a doorstop to intimidate my runner friends and landlord.
I use 44 lbs kettle as a balcony door stopper 😄 but I also use kettlebells for rows, swings and gobletsquat
@@jeffstorey9147 haha 😄
@@KootBear to be frank, though, it is an awful kettlebell, with a terrible handle and weird proportions.
And great exercise equipment
I do mostly barbell and Safety bar training but love my kettle bells. They are great for bodybuilding rows and delt work.
Totally agree!
I'm one of those who went into COVID lockdowns with just a kettlebell (added gymnastics rings soon after) and I definitely came out much better on the other side. I will go as far as to say that the simplicity of having just one or two pieces of equipment finally made training make sense to me, after years of faffing around and finding excuses to avoid going to the gym. I cannot see myself ever giving up on kettlebell training, although I am working to expand my toolbox as well.
One nice thing about more equipment is that others can come over and train, too. Sometimes, it helps to have someone to train with in a home gym.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach Very true! Gotta work on being better at training with other people. Now I have 4 good kettlebells, a squat rack, a decent-ish Olympic barbell and about 150kg worth of plates. I'll try to take your advice and find someone to train with.
Thank you for your holistic approach to weight training! I came to the 'iron game' out of endurance running (and I attribute going from marathon to ultra-marathon distances to starting weights with kettlebells). I run less these days, but lift more using barbells, dumb bells, and still use the kettlebells. It's refreshing to see a coach support all those training methods instead of clinging to the opinion that a single method is the best and only one every athlete should use. Specialization is for insects after all!
Thank you for this...
Very good balanced viewpoint from Dan. My favourite current podcast
Glad you enjoyed it!
You're usually asked about kettlebells and barbells/olympic lifting, and that makes sense given your background. But it would be great to see a few videos with your thoughts on how/when/why/with whom to incorporate dumbbells.
I get those questions but, and to be honest, dumbbells just don't get a lot of questions any more...
All my kettlebells have price tags on them from when I wanted to sell them, but now I want to keep them even though I still never use them.
That is interesting.
Love your deadlift experience!!
It was fun...
7:33 this is the most significant sentence in this whole excerpt.
agreed
For certain personality types sticking to dogma is an ego-defence strategy. And intellectual laziness.
That's the rub.
When I was in the boondocks of Panama, I used a metal pipe and 2 coffee cans filled with concrete to do TGUs.
That is fantastic. When I was young, we used to lift weights made out of concrete filled and coffee cans. Oddly, it was much more common than I thought as I got older people told me the same story.
When my son was a high school freshman I had him do 3 x 3-5 chins, standing press and squats 3x a week plus optionally one set of pushups AMRAP. He had 14 degree scoliosis in the upper spine and he was only 5-5 110 pounds. He started squatting with a 10 pound medicine ball held in front, and he started with a 15 pound barbell for overhead presses and doing underhand pulldowns with 40 pounds for 3 x 5. In 6 months he was squatting a 60 pound medicine ball, overhead pressing the 45, and could do 1 chin and in a year he weighed 135, front squatted 135 for 5, pressed 95 for 5 and did 20 chins and tested at no scoliosis and he made his schools varsity tennis team. He never liked working out, but he got in and out in 15 minutes 3x per week. I'd say that it was inspired by starting strength. I really think the front squats, presses and chins built up the muscles around the upper spine to straighten that out.
Thanks for sharing this...
You have common sense and old man wisdom. Dont get a big head now 🤣 internet is mostly nonsense. From a father of many with many responsibilities and ″life happens″ stuff your work is invaluable. Respect.
Aside from achieving very specific goals, I doubt modalities matter much. Body weight, barbells, and kettlebell training all hv their benefits. I enjoy the variety after decades of pull-ups, pushups and running.
Be Well!
That's a great point.
I see Riptoe's perspective that for building overall strength, and that's all he cares about, why worry about implements other than barbells? I happen to care about other things than how much I Squat and Bench so I have lots of other things in my garage.
I like that last sentence.
this such a great set of explanations. thank you! kettle bells are one tool in the toolbox, I just happen to love that tool!
Thank you
Kettlebells are amazing. I was strong before I bought a set. Then the kettlebells made me explosive with endurance. When I go out of town I put 2 53# kettlebells in the car and I get a great workout everywhere.
Thanks for sharing!
I've also heard M.R say that cardio is useless because it doesn't produce power. That's when I stopped listening. No surprise he thinks KB's are useless.
Again, I think they have great value...
628lb Deadlift.....whoa Dan!
Just for one...
Mark also says Hexbars are useless, the reverse hyper is useless, dumbbells are useless, sets of ten are useless and the list goes on. I thought, however, he said that kettlebells make great doorstops for his gym in Wichita Falls.
We see a pattern...
Keep being " woke" John or as I like to say " being nice. Your knowledge and demeanour are a breath of fresh air in todays current climate. Thanks for everything.
Thank you, I will. But, please call me "Dan."
I’ve gotten more shredded using KB but I was bigger using barbells but getting older I don’t go heavy much anymore
Things change as we age. But I think if we think things through it works out OK
Rippetoe's bombastic, often sarcastic method of delivery, along with a liberal sprinkling of dogma throughout, is what makes his persona what it is. I enjoy his content, as I do yours, but I take it in like I do everybody else's, keeping in mind that, while nobody knows everything, almost everybody has something of value to offer. I have read Rippetoe's Starting Strength and Practical Programming, as well as your book Never Let Go and gleaned valuable insight from all of them.
The irony of your comment (arguably) is mr rippetoes comments seemed to suggest there was nothing useful to be gained from kettlebells.
"If you segment yourself to just your one demographic, then you're extremely limiting your view and your creativity because training is also an art form. There's a science to it, and there's an art to it. If all you know is your own sport, then your creativity is shot." Dave Tate from Muscle & Fitness 2014
I'm a big fan of Dave Tate.
First deadlift over 500 pounds is crazy. Respect
Much appreciated.
Rip’s scope is very narrow, barbells or bust. I took to KBs because of the breadth of of exercises available to do. Plus, I couldn't make a home gym with a rack bench and whole BB set.
You know, cost is an issue I consider, too. I should have mentioned it. A single KB can cover a lot of training ideas.
You are an angel
I don’t know if Mark said kettlebells were useless - it’s just that the Starting Approach is scientific, efficient, and precise, while kettlebells fall under the category of exercise. Nothing wrong with exercise, but on the other hand the compound lifts properly executed, will develop the entire musculature. Moreover, progressive loading can be much more incremental and precise in terms of gauging progress. Add 5lbs a session for 24 weeks, and all your lifts are heavier than when you started You are objectively stronger If I start with kettlebell swings at 10 lbs, and he up to say, 75, yeah I am stronger but stronger is a very limited range of motion. Moreover there not much of an eccentric phase swings. Anyway, Mark can be an abrasive guy, but about the compound lifts and their pluses, he is absolutely correct.
I'm just answering a question sent to me.
Love Dan John💪
Love you back!
I've trained all my highschool football OL on the KB's as auxilliary exercises to the 3 big lifts.
1. It excellent for cardio without needing to run.
2. Builds the extensor group like nothing else.
3. Trains excellent technique in support of the big 3: it adds strength and speed.
4. Prevents injuries like nothing else: opens the hiops, knees, and ankles; packs the shoulders.
5. Excellent "in-season" training modality.
6. Once football players realize that the clean-squat-press is functionally the same as hitting / tackling it's a game changer. Add the swing and snatch and it's a full on total body training modality that never needs to be explained or marketed to them.
Great channel !
I like that....
i luv u and Rip ,you r 2 masters.🧘🙏🙇
Back at you!
So does this mean we can start referring to Kettlebells as rippetoes?
Interesting.
"...Nazareth..." 😂 Keep up the Good work.
I love Rip, but I have made good strength gains using some equipment and techniques that he calls worthless.
Good point.
Truth. I like listening to Mark talk strength and I’ve read his book. He knows his shit for sure. HOWEVER, very, very dogmatic.
Here's another data point. I trust my 12 and 14 year olds a lot more with kettlebells than screwing around with barbells in the basement. Dont want any avoidable collisions with reality on a bench press. Theyre not to touch the barbells without my supervision but they can train aikido and do kettlebells single file while respecting space for the work. Cheers
Thank you
Do you do anything with trap bar, Dan? I'm pretty uncomfortable with barbell deadlift too, but the trap bar lets me deadlift real heavy with no mobility issues.
This is where I'm at too. Big fan.
In other videos I've heard Dan say that the trap bar is a fine tool as well. He'd say to keep in mind that trap bar deads aren't an exact 1:1 replacement for straight bar deads.
Nailed it. Exactly
Pavel said hang cleans are good in his books and videos.
I've been doing them since 1965...
Fact: "A kettlebell is a cast-iron or cast-steel ball with a handle attached to the top." Opinion: "Kettlebells are useless." Opinions are like you-know-what; everyone has one & they all stink.
I thought it was just me, swing to a clean, swing to a snatch and even the front squat. lol.
Me too
Dan, would you agree that improving strength, especially in untrained individuals, will lead to an improvement of all other athletic qualities? Do you also agree that genetic freaks at the top don't "need" any of the icing as they're where they are because of their genetic endowment? Also, I don't think Rip would argue that including the power clean along with the powerlifts would be beneficial to train rate of force development
Remember: genetic freaks also face Father Time.
Dan John is prolly the best overall coach ever
Damn right
During my mma career i was a strict ETK guy and was stronger than all the other bantam weights i faced and trained with leading to an 8-1 record. Am i stronger now after 10 years of stongman training? Of course. Im also 40lbs heavier and don't have the stamina i had back then.
I'm 39 now and in the future I'll probably do as Dave Tate recommends now and after a comp (no barbell in your hands, no barbell on your back, and nothing under 10 reps for 4 weeks.) And i think KBs would be a greta option during that period.
I think that is wise advice. Your first point is interesting about ETK versus the strongman stuff, too.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach I loved ETK. I'm better at programming for myself and making adjustments when I need to but my 20s self needed an idiot proof program like etk.
He also hates trap bars.
Kettlebells are the top of the pyramid of the iron world.
Well, I would still have the barbell on top, but I appreciate your point.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach Yes, in general, I agree, but for a small apartment, kettlebells and a horizontal bar, I think, may be the best solution. I'm 66 now, and I'm going on... And many thanks for the Single KB ABC. I know that many (like me) have a set of weights of only one of each weight and are looking for the optimal solution in a similar situation... With Greetings from Russia.
Mark Rippetoe also claim that trap-bars are useless!
thats crazy!!!
Dan ...
Currently train every week with a STRONGFIRST elite instructor and have for a decade
Have been to STRONGFIRST kettlebell and barbell certifications
Attended PAVEL TSATSOLUNE seminars
And I've been to the 3 Day STARTING STRENGTH seminar by Mark Rippitoe ... went with my STRONGFIRST instructor ... who was one of the strongest and definitely the fittest person in the room.
PAVEL & STRONGFIRST are about Getting Stronger, Moving Better and Staying Healthy ... STRONGFIRST uses kettlebells, barbells & body weight training to help athletes meet their fitness and sport objectives.
If you want to Get and Be Strong & Fit for the Game of Life ... listen to them.
Rip is exclusively old school BARBELL POWERLIFTING ... if you want to hit a POWERLIFTING PR ... listen to Mark ... Just don't listen to Mark about anything else ... especially if your aim is to be healthy, strong and fit for life.
He's an old rowdy, contrary Texas cowboy who's got opinions than a porcupine has quills.
And he uses them the same way ... to poke folks.
Tom in Texas
Why the caps?
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach
Dan ...
My abuse of the written word is intentional ... i use lowercase i's (a Big i looks like little L, very confusing) ... love ellipsis (them little dot dot dots ... ) ... and use CAPS to make things POP OUT ... got into an argument with my friend Jeff who attended the Naval Academy and has a degree in English about my Abuse of Punctuation ... had to explain the Punctuation works for me, i don't work for it ... ain't my Grammar ... as an Educator it's possible that you are horrified (doubt it) by my abuses of the English system of grammatical correctness ... but since i was abused by more than one English teacher for my incredibly illegible cursive and impertinent punctuation ... it's sorta like my personal revenge.
... but my point in posting (which is a rare thing for me) is i've had the opportunity to spend some time with with both Rip and Pavel ... Rip knows Powerlifting and it's a good place to start for lifters ... got a lot of good from the STARTING STRENGTH seminar ... but Rip also makes a point to say things to piss people off and get a reaction ... which isn't so cool ... Pavel on the other hand is in a league all his own. Has an amazing depth of knowledge and simply doesn't talk trash about anyone or anything (you know them both far better than me and know this ... your readers however, might not).
As far as Kettlebell training goes ... Brett Jones, head of SF Education, has developed a program called "iron cardio" based off of Pavel's Strength Aerobics ... our training group has been doing it for the past few month and all our KB Presses have increased ... and our Cardio has improved. He's made it as simple as it gets. This might make for a great post for your fans who are looking for insights into bringing kettlebells into the mix.
But wait, you already know all this.
Thanks for listening, enjoy your posts.
t in texas
Well, it is true that you aren't 'controversial' enough to really go viral, Coach.
I will strive...
Kbells are the fountain of youth!
I’m sure hearing that more and more every week
😮I guess im supposed to be suprised. Im not. Hes too dogmatic about not liking kettlebell training. Youd think hed support all forms of strength training, even if there are more than a few ways to use them. Dan you handle this great.
Thank you.
So what's so good about kettle bells? When are the better than dumbbells? To me it seems like a fad, but I would like to learn otherwise.
I’ve talked about this many times. The one good thing is the ballistic moments you can do. Ask this question to the Podcast.
Mark is a minimalist strength coach and as a result his athletes are neither the strongest and they are injury prone, whatever.
The Ancient Greeks have a bone to pick with Mark. And that’s not what woke is.
Thanks for posting.
Useless for what?
Dan! How old you mate? Because from what you just said you must be easy, ten + years older than I thought. 👍
66
Kettlebell training does have value, ask any mma fighter. It just depends on what your goals are. Kettlebell training is great for the combination of cardio and muscle building.
Kettlebells are terrible if you've no idea what you're doing. Same could be said of anything. It's just a tool. Used wrong, it's dangerous. Used correctly it's superb.
A truth about everything
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach all the best stuff is hard! Mulling over starting a new life in kettlebells as my job in IT isn't going to last what with all this AI stuff taking over jobs
I think I replied to the wrong thing there but whatever!
Kettlebell is great if you can, most should just stick to dumbbell, it's in the name...
Haaa...I see what you did there.
Did you have a thyroidectomy done?
Give me The Biggest Kettlebells you can Find!
And....?
I think it's plausible that Rippetoe has gone way too deep into portraying his starting strength character and became kind of a schizo. and made a religion out of the 20kg olympic barbell.
He's a nutter.
555 first deadlift?
Yup. O lifting makes you stronger than you think.
I would just add that dead hang cleans, clean to press and snatches with KB’s are phenomenally useful for explosive fast twitch muscular development. I embraced the kettlebell in 2006 and have never looked back. I think you believe that there are many ways to use the tool.
I like those clean and press sets where I just do clean and press, clean and press, maybe up to 8s. Honestly, five rounds of that and I am pretty much finished with all i need...
Wow. First I've ever heard of you and you start with "woke means I believe in the value of human dignity in every single person."
When you talk to Rip again, ask him what "woke" means.
I don't know,...maybe...
I wouldn’t use Rip as a barometer of morality.
mark know some stuff but he is close minded, but he has to... in a way, he is talking to beginers who mind is all over the place!
Beginner's mind....zen mind.
I’m a fan of both of you . But. Have you considered a goatee?
Attachment to a tool is about as bad as the dismissal of one. Like you said, it's the workman. You're the tool, but hopefully not a tool.
Take Ripetoe for whats its worth,, he sells a BARBELL training program, of course he's going to sh-t on kettlebells he also sh-ts on trap bars and sumo deadlifts,, take it for what its worth , if you like training with kettlebells nothing Ripetoe says should matter lol.
That' truly could be said about many things and many people. It is a very good point to keep in mind.
Ripptoes negative attitude towards kettlebells what's the result of an accident he had with one. That caused a crushed testicle during a Turkish get up.
So silly!
Anything heavy, moved with safety and good form, is beneficial!
I think we agree then?
We do Dan!
Good to hear from you, big fan!
Rippetoe is pretty knowledgeable about training but he goes off on some weird tangents. He thinks the trap bar is garbage, for instance. As someone who has done my deadlifts with both the trap and the straight bar for years, I'd say he's dead wrong about that.
My brother finds the trap bar to be magic, so I agree with you.
👍
🙌
Rip thinks everything other than 4 or 5 exercises with sets of fahhve are useless.
It cannot be argued that the most effective modality for significant increases in strength is barbell training. I work with a 96 year old lifter- she deadlifts; she presses; she does barbell curls. She cannot, nor could she achieve the same results with a kettlebell that we have achieved with a barbell. The kettlebell doesn't permit us to marginally increase strength and subtly present more stress. After all, that is exactly how strength is gained- stress, recovery and adaptation. My comments should be read with a great respect for Dan John. I have read his work for a number of years and do appreciate his contribution to strength training. - Adam martin (Head Coach, Starting Strength Cincinnati); Owner (Starting Strength Atlanta)
😂 you said nothing.
Expertly, too.
@@DanJohnStrengthCoach your expert feelings.
Kettle bells are better than doing nothing.
We have a statement on our gym wall about like that
I believe Rip's point can be seen with a thought experiment. Imagine you and your genetic clone starting out as exercise beginners. Your clone starts kettlebell training. You start barbell training, and get your DL to 500, squat to 400, bench press to 300, power clean to 280, overhead press to 250, and weighted pull-ups to 150. _Then_ you start the same kettlebell training program that your clone has been advancing this whole time. After a year of you kettlebell training, who is going to be stronger overall? And who is going to be stronger at kettlebells? Rip's book might have been better titled _Start With Strength._ He has said countless time that whatever your genetic endowment, age, or goals in life, everything is better if you get strong AF _first._ And barbells, with the ability to go up to stupendous weights in 1/4# increments, is the superior tool for that job.
Thank you
This was a very well thought out and intelligent response.