Ford EEC IV Distributor Pick-up or Faulty Ignition Module - Part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- In this part 2 of 2 series, I will be reviewing the captures taken from the old distributor on the smartboard with my class. Then we install the new distributor, briefly show the waveforms live, then return to the classroom with the good captures and compare them to the bad. To join my classes online, sign up for ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdan... There is a 14 day free trial.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 22 (available at www.scannerdanner.com)
Symptoms
- #2 cylinder misfire
- intermittent misfiring from other cylinders
- run okay at WOT and idle
- no misfiring with Spout connector unplugged
Fix
- replace faulty distributor pick-up assembly
Tests shown
- how to verify weak spark with an in-line spark tester
- how to test the PIP and SPOUT signals with a lab scope
- how to test coil primary current to verify a dwell time problem
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On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
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Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC.
In this part 2 of 2 series, I will be reviewing the captures taken from the old distributor on the smartboard with my class. Then we install the new distributor, briefly show the waveforms live, then return to the classroom with the good captures and compare them to the bad. To join my classes online, sign up for ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html There is a 14 day free trial.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 22 (available at www.scannerdanner.com)
Symptoms
- #2 cylinder misfire
- intermittent misfiring from other cylinders
- run okay at WOT and idle
- no misfiring with Spout connector unplugged
Fix
- replace faulty distributor pick-up assembly
Tests shown
- how to verify weak spark with an in-line spark tester
- how to test the PIP and SPOUT signals with a lab scope
- how to test coil primary current to verify a dwell time problem
I'll bet the fuel economy noticeably improved!
I wanna thank you danner I was starting to really hate turning wrenches and diagnostics but since finding your videos and a few others you have inspired me to keep pushing and learn more to better myself and get my skills down pack! So from someone who was ready to say screw this and walk away thank you! You’ve opened my eyes and changed my view on things
Thats awesome Jay! Thanks for sharing that with me.
First off hope family is doing well. Second thank you for taking time and posting these videos. Last year I was having issues with my 87 5.0. Had three mechanics over to try to help. Had bad miss off idle and car would fall flat around 2-3000 rpm. No one could figure it out. After watching a couple (a lot) of your videos I was able to borrow an oscilloscope from auto tech teacher and diagnosed the issue. It ended up being the pick up in the distributor. Without you videos I probably would have not figured the issues out with my car. Thank you.
Before I watch this much anticipated video, very happy everything worked out for the family. GOD bless and take care.
First of all, lot's of well wishes & prayers for your granddaughter recovery🙏
Stay Blessed Danner Family❤
It's probably been since the mid to late nineties since I did one of those distributors, but at one point we quit putting in reman distributors and started getting all the parts and doing them ourselves. Had a lot better luck that way. Never had a come back on one with quality parts done in the shop. Man, I'm really feeling old now.
way to go paul , you esplained more then i learned in 1987 when I graudated from the ford EEC4 training program .
Very cool. Proof that you can use modern tech to diag any year vehicle drive ability proble. So stoked to hear about the good health of your new granddaughter. My best wishes to every generation of your family
Very KNOWLEDGEABLE
Sir ScannerDanner
Thanks 👍
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
As a owner of this system I'm confident I can properly diagnose it now. For that it means a lot...thank you again!
I was getting some good feedback on the Mustang video so I thought I'd be good to give you guys a but more on this system and why I was so focused on the clipping of the PIP on that Mustang
Hi Paul. I hope the baby's doing well. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post a video.
Fantastic stuff Danner hope all is well with the family keep up the good work 👍
Thank you for all this info, I always take notes from every single video.
These EEC system video list help me alot with my sons 87 mustang, thanks for sharing.
Hello Paul
Glad everything is well now 🙏
Boy I remember the eec iv system.
Worked at a Ford Dealership in 1981
Last year of the Pinto and First year of the Escort. LTD with the Variable Verturi Carburetor. 😆.
👍👍
Excellent intro for undrestanding part2 of ford mustang. Thanks Mr. Danner.
Old school, made a lot of money working on these systems. Kind of miss them....kind of.
Take a breath pal. The family emergency has settled 😄 and you nailed the waveform.
As you well know, electronic circuits can fail in bizarre ways and quite often do, making known good traces invaluable.
On another note, its a distraction when something with only four variables operating in linear fashion can beget data overload. Gotta KIS keep it simple. Turn coil on at a given location, turn it off at a certain time, produce a consistent spark.
After establishing voltage supply level
I first noticed that the dwell time was intermittently breaking down in the primary leading to what would no doubt be a cylinder misfire. Since there was no reason to suspect coil turn-on location and unpluging the spout changed the dwell (advance timing). The two remaining variables were inside the distributor.
Game over. I love getting paid flat-rate. 😄
When you mentioned someone told you to see if it was soft, the pickup coil is encased in epoxy. If the coil overheats, the epoxy will soften and become discolored. I have seen the same effect on ignition modules for coil packs. The board is encased in epoxy which is clear, if it's milky and gooey then it's bad
Currently at 7:30... I believe the pickup is causing the computer to advance (way too much) on that cylinder (varies which one) which along with insufficient spark caused by the coil not having time to saturate magnetically (thus giving weak spark/low current/voltage). Hope pickup fixes it... still watching. If I had one of those I'd disassemble and provide the circuit (pia, but interesting).
Cheated and fast forwarded... I suspect the 'stator" has metallurgically changed magnetically of there's a bad connection beginning (increased resistance at time due to vibration) inside the poted pickup from a manufacturing poor solder joint in it. The later more likely imo.
Car sounds good SD! And you are a hero for teaching. God bless and hope your granddaughter (sry if wrong family member... old and memory) has recovered.
Hi Paul,
I just noticed something else besides the digital summing which doesn't seem to be very important: the duty cycle in the charging and discharging is awkward in the faulty device. It seems to be some 60 off and 40 on. During the charge event for the synchronization it becomes even more unbalanced with a 85 off and 15 on, thus the weak spark. The computer seems to compensate for something and reduces the duty cycle drastically.
With the coil replaced the duty cycle is 50 to 50 which is logical to be as there is no rush in charging or discharging.
Cheers!
Excellent video and explanation of this problem. It almost seems like the Hall Effect pickup has a problem resetting after the sinc signal passes it.
Your good at explaining this and thank you for sharing your knowledge 😀👍
SD finest again. Keep up the good work
Also check the capacitor on the coil. If its not filtering the ignition noise it will feedback to the TFI (AKA ICM) and the PIP and SPOUT with carry that noise and cause a misfire as well. Especially if your ECU has poor power and grounds. Check that the ECU had full power with a test light that has about 2 or 3 amps of current on the power and then flip and test the computer ground to the hot. Weak voltage to the ECU will cause headaches and the rest of your tests. After checking just read the signals again on the PIP and SPOUT and see if the noise still gets on those lines check the coil capacitor and see if its a weak cap if you have a capacitor tester. The original capacitor was 233nF (Nano Farads) and I put on a 650nF Capacitor actually from a dodge fuel injector electrical capacitor. Worked better to get rid of noise a heck of a lot more. Vehicle ran better but still had a random misfire but not as bad as before. Changed the TFI and was back in business. Plus added ground lines to engine to the body and to the ECU to make sure it had strong grounds everywhere. Had a complete new distributor right out of the box fail (ICM) WAI Global brand - Do not recommend buying that brand. Spend extra and get the cardone and the motorcraft TFI distributor mounted then cap and rotor. You might spend extra on it but in the end you have a better chance it working instead of an off brand China part
It would be cool to make a bench test device 😂 a motor spinning the distributor, access to the pip and tfi internals, and a pcm.
Unless an engineer had the answers that is.
I wonder if that low spike is a magnetic/electrical flyback voltage. Old or poorly "reman" components that arent properly insulated, shielded, ect could act like a lighting rod correct?
Thanx again S.D.Always interesting to watch your videos.
I don't understand how with the spout unplugged, you get square waves that you'd expect from a hall effect. Yet when you plug in the spout, they both get altered. Is it possible the circuit design loads the hall effect sensor and puts some higher than anticipated current on the signal wire? Maybe the spout loads the pip signal and pulls it down somehow? Either way, this a good learning experience where I probably would've called an engine computer also. Thanks for taking the beating for us!
I wish I could answer intelligently but I can't. I only know how to spot it.
@@ScannerDanner I meant to add to my original post... an amp clamp on the spout/pip can answer the question. Too bad the car's probably gone by now...
I believe Paul ScannerDanner mentioned that the SPOUT signal was being monitored at the output pin of the CPU #36 (in my case '86 GT), also keep in mind the SPOUT connector was disconnected when he showed the Graph form of a Clean SPOUT signal and a Clean PIP signal, therefore the Spout connector is in between the CPU output Pin #36 and the input Pin #5 on the TFI Ignition Module. I believe this input pin #5 Circuitry is causing some type of an excessive load on this SPOUT signal when it's connected. That's why when the SPOUT connector is connected , the SPOUT signal becomes distorted, etc. Also, when the TFI module receives no SPOUT signal (SPOUT disconnected) it uses the PIP signal which is at base timing !! During the time the PIP is being used, the engine is at base timing and since the PIP is clean square wave, the engine has NO misfire.
This was like 20 years ago but I remender
A old Nissan pickup truck,
with some hard starting issues and some noise coming from inside the distributor ( bearing noise, rusted bearing) decided to rebuild the distributor with new bearing.
Engine started like champ for like 10 times,
After that was crank no satrt .
Of course no scope back then just multimeter and test light, power and signal everything is there but stills crank no start.
But if we push the truck down hill and pump the clutch she start right away and ran smooth .
Long story short new distributor fix the hard start and crank no start weird issues.
I have some videos on that system, with scope captures, that would most likely explain your issue
@@ScannerDanner that would be awesome to finally solve the mystery 😀👌😄
Given the way a crank sensor works and fails typically, I think the vast majority of use confused as to why this particular system, this condition can be present so consistently on the same cylinder repeatedly. Typically when we see a crank sensor issue, it would effect every cylinder equally. I would love to hear the explanation of why this happens, and how.
Me too! 😅
1989 Ford Bronco ii) eradic ignition waveforms, I tested the Motorcraft condenser on the side of the coil, it failed. I replaced it and what a difference. I think the voltage spikes were negatively affecting my performance?
In the mid 70s a customer had a Grand Torino with intermittent rough running. A timing light showed his timing bouncing between normal and too far advanced in a back and forth pattern. I had to pretend to be someone far more important than I was to speak directly to Ford's engineering department. The engineer admitted that although something he would never suspect, that it was a remote possibility a malfunctioning ignition control module could cause irratic timing fluctuations. I replaced the module and the problem was gone. Now on your vehicle, is it possible the pickup wheel is becoming gaussed in one area? Maybe a bent distributor shaft? Since a partially magnetized piece of metal can't be detected without equipment, it would make sense that a reman distributor could have the same flaw out of the box. A magnetized part trying to work in a magnetic field could effect the module's interpretation of the trigger.
Just thinking out loud.
bernie thompson had a crank tone wheel magnetized causing an errant pickup and miss
Thanks for share team Danner .
I think it's just a chip timing failure in icm. Coil dwell start timing is consistent in a good module, and gets confused from the spout in a bad one. Sync pulse causes timing error when spout on. Is misfire always #2? Very unusual problem and I'm glad you shared this diagnosis!
It is not an ICM issue
Danner, Back in the day, I learned to never use aftermarket ECC IV components, just for this reason. I go back way too far. LOL
I always wondered why, And your Explanation was very informative. Thanks and Prayers for your Family.
Have you diaged one that had bad pcm capacitors? The mustangs being this old are common to have caps that have dried up. Just like an old battery, its no longer taking a charge therefore not doing its job. Now the voltage it filters is not being filtered.
I have seen very strange things happen when the caps go bad...
I have not 😉
Is it fair to say that the crank senor was causing the dwell variation?
Paul, Thanks so much for this video explaining the ignition characteristics of Ford's
EEC IV system. I've been down many rabbit holes trying to fix my 90's Ford truck.
Do you remember what aftermarket brand of distributor you used as the Motorcraft
ones are as rare now as hens teeth
This was a 2016 SD Premium video my friend. Im so sorry, I have no idea
i buy all the motorcraft pip online when i can find them just to stock because of this problem,you can use aftermarket modules but not pip?
PIP in some diagram i find look like , Bat voltage true resistor in module who is ground side switched with hall sensor.
Has your prototype test light landed yet?
no sir
How do we hire you?
Is it possible that the teeth on the distributor shaft were uneven, causing a "dwell" or variance in the pickup input to the computer?
The misfire was fairly consistent on cylinders 4/2, which indicates a fairly consistent cause, timed to the firing order.
A faulty ground screw inside the distributor housing might result in a faulty signal, but not consistently, one would think.
Removing the SPOUT connector eliminated the computer variation, but even so, there was still a slight variation in the timing, as indicated by the waveforms. But, the exaggerated variation from the computer was "calmed down".
Just wondering ... you said the problem was present "right out of the box" after the previous repair when the first shop removed the SPOUT connector to cover the fault.
P.S. Either the gear teeth might have been sloppily manufactured, or (I have heard) maybe the distributor had a gear wheel made for a different part number.
No sir, this is a common issue with these and I've been seeing it for 15+ years
@@ScannerDanner OK, thank you!
Do you actually have to replace the entire distributor? Is it not possible to replace the bad sensor itself?
on these, I've always ordered a new distributor, I think because price wise, they were close to being the same
but no, you can change just the sensor
I have the tool to remove gear from shaft. Be glad to sell. Too labor intensive. Became easier to replace distributor. Kinda like diode plates I finally tossed.
I have a good question! What is the difference between the 83 through 85 distributor vs the 85 and up? I tried an 89 distributor in my 84 and had no timing advance. They look identical.
Actually 84-85 is different than 86 thru 90. Only physical difference i can tell is the style of rotor but the tone ring might be cut differently or something.
I hope the baby is doing well, Paul. Please tell Caleb they've been in my thoughts.
PS-- I've been putting some money aside for a new service cart. I'd like to use some of it towards the surgery bill. If Caleb has a PayPal account, let me know his email address (I can send it to you to give to him if it's easier).
Thanks,
Dave
Thank you so much Dave! Caleb is in good hands and has good medical insurance. Really appreciate this offer though!
@@ScannerDanner If he has a deductible, just let me know. The hockey family always has each other's backs.
There is also an interesting point from Bernie from ATS where he says that those reluctors become magnetized and they are a common failure. Is it possible that this is what happened here?
You know how many times I've heard about magnetized trigger wheels in the past week? More than I ever have in 30 years lol. Never saw one, not one time. Heard of it once, never saw it. Since Bernie did that video, I've heard it like 10 times now. I suppose it is possible my friend. Unlikely but possible.
After watching this video I thought about reaching out to another TH-cam creator. Dave Jones EEV Blog in Australia might have fun taking a stab with this phenomenon. My initial thought was the connection with the EEC and the TFM was pulling the circuit down. But I’m lost as to why the signal coming from the Hall effect is corrupted when the spout is connected.
Then it occurred to me on the 302 with the firing order and a old TSB from Ford about special wire routing of wires 7 and 8 due to crossfire when the wires are arranged in parallel voltage is induced into the adjacent wire. Have you seen this issue on other engines or is this issue specific to the 302?
Need a module block diagram to answer this phenomenon and someone who's knows how to read it. Generic info won't cut it imo
It's confusing when you keep saying the crank sensor needs to be replaced on this vehicle but you're talking about the PIP signal being bad. PIP is the cam signal. While they are related they are not the same. ;)
Technically it is the crank sensor, even though it is driven by the cam. 😉
I had a similar issue with a GM TBI engine in an 89 Camaro back before I knew how to diagnose this. We swapped every electrical part in the distributor and still didn't fix it. Ran great with the EST wire unplugged but terrible with it in. Ended up swapping the distributor a 3rd time to fix it (original had major shaft play, ran great but destroyed cap and rotors). Never did figure out why it did this..
I notice that with the spout disconnected the peak PIP voltage is ~12V and the Spout is ~14V. With the Spout connected they remain that way with the old distributor but pull each other to ~13V with the new distributor. I don't know if it means anything. Does the module need to see the same voltage on both? Does it indicate a faulty circuit?
Now you're making me go back and look lol got a time frame for those for me?
@@ScannerDanner @4:05 &4:20, and @34:30 & 34:50. Sorry for the delay.
Great lesson Danner.shat brand of distributor did you use
Not sure! This was from 2016
@@ScannerDanner what am I thinking. Forgot that was back then lol.sorry
@@frankjohn4302 all good my friend
I once fixed a misfire in a 1987 mercury marquis 5.0 by resetting the computer, just saying because it doesn’t make any sense.
Just replace them both
I have an 89 E150 with the 4.9, drive to the store, come out, start it, quit, start it, quit, start it, rev it up, lethargic, try to drive it home, spit, sputter, try to stall at every stop, top speed was 35 MPH, sounds like every valve is rattling, barely make it home. I thought fuel issue, gauge reads 50 PSI engine running, unless it drops off when hot, its not fuel, had the distributor replaced last year with plugs, plug wires, cap and rotor, original distributor had one of the cap hold down broken off, its not run right since, but has really degraded to practically undriveable. I am so disgusted, but I'm committed, I've put a wheelchair lift, seatbase, and hand controls in it, over $7000 worth of equipment, replaced the floor, and had the rust repairs done, I can't just throw it out. I miss my 73 E100, none of this electronic garbage, too bad it was totaled, leaving me no choices!
Disconnect your spout connector and then tell me how it runs
@@ScannerDanner Gotta send it to a shop, I can't reach it, wanted to pull the spout to see if it cleared up. Getting old, the wheelchair couldn't slow me fast enough, so arthritis set in, and last year I damaged the pump in my abdomen pulling the front apart to replace my coil springs, that surgery pretty much nipped crawling around the van. Dad found a guy who works on many of the Ford inlines, will see what he finds next week. Windshield leaked when I got it, hoping the computer is OK, as its under the heater box where the water ran down, rotting out my floor.
@@Maples01 I'm sorry my friend. I'd love to be able to help you. You're not close to Pittsburgh Pa are you?
@@ScannerDanner No, Tennessee, had gotten used to a 73 Econoline with a 302, so simple to repair and keep running, forgot what a headache OBD1 was even when new, but went after it because the longevity of the 300 6, a durable engine, tho strangled with lots of electronic garbage known to fail, wish I knew how to swap over to the later 96 ignition with the module off the distributor, away from the engine on a heat sink. I have a friend with a 96 E150 just like mine, C6 transmission, has 400,000 miles on it and neither have had to be rebuilt.
@@ScannerDanner Another shop, drove it, ran fine, but on the way to the shop even dad noticed it missing like crazy. Really mad I keep getting it back being told nothing wrong with it. Maybe the alternator isn't charging enough, I'd have trouble explaining that since no one uses the radio and wheelchair lift.
Lol only one problem these day, try finding a decent pip sensor for these cars... The cheap china made ones don't last and motorcraft is obsolete...
Good
See a used Ford with this crap for sale, run, get far away from it.
First
Get vacation for 3 months man. Its just metal crap. Try to back refund your courses. Bet you will be surprise. Slide.