Reflections on the Outpouring - Dr. James Thobaben and Dr. Jason Vickers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.พ. 2023
- Asbury Theological Seminary’s Dr. James Thobaben, Professor of Bioethics and Social Ethics, and Dr. Jason Vickers, Professor of Theology, discuss the outpouring of The Holy Spirit at Asbury University.
This is an informed conversion, and yet a controlled, hesitant conversation. The thing that thrills me about this revival is how the 1970 revival spawned ministries, and cast their vision for the future. The thing that humbles me about it is this: Might there be a work that God is trying to complete that wasn't fulfilled in the last revival? And what work might that be?
Good closing words.
Thank you for this insightful dialogue. I enjoyed it immensely, as I been also blessed by the outpouring/revival in Hughes and around your beautiful campus. As you were speaking, it occurred to me that the Lord is the first one that made the pilgrimage to Hughes Auditorium in response to the students' hunger and humility. Unlike when God came down to speak to the people of Israel on the fiery, quaking mountain, so much so that even Moses said "I exceedingly fear and quake", He has come down to Hughes in a very gentle, loving yet purifying way. No one needs to be afraid, we just want to be as close to Him as possible. While His presence comes through the phone to a great extent, it does not replace the tangible love substance that escorted me from the foyer through the doors when I attended last week. I thought, "oh wow, what is that, have NEVER felt this before. Well, only when I was dramatically converted/born again. " I answered, "so this must be characteristic of a true revival. " I know this is inconvenient for the campus ( I have only been once to allow room for others), but I hope and pray we don't kick God out prematurely. I trust your leadership to be guided by the Holy Spirit, as they have been. This has been such a great light shining in all the darkness, and I am thankful it's reading to other youth across the country and world. Just read a post that a group of Gen Z s are having all night prayer in Ireland, for example. There was another group of teens at a church in northern , Ky that had been struggling with suicidal thoughts. A man of God who had attended your revival went, prayed over them, and they were wonderfully set free
Interesting comments on community. And such a hunger to be with the Presence of God. I like your comments on hospitality, as well. I do hope you all are helping guard against outsiders coming in to take advantage of this.
Such a good conversation - thank you! Just a thought - the very path of the pilgrim is indicative of community…the path itself was formed through the communal experience of the pilgrims who previously passed that way…
OK the closing comment was the best...."This is one of those times when a theologian needs to know when to stop talking...."
There will be more of this. But as I looked for about 20 minutes today of a person there with his family on the lawn there is screen's up now and full worship band inside. Just praying it doesn't become a spectacle. And Man trying to create order and a system to the situation doesn't squash the control of the Holy Spirit and salvations that could be happening.
SO many wonderful points of engagement!!! Thank you for such a stimulating reflection! I'm very interested in the information re pilgrimages. I would love to hear more on that topic, particularly in the context of the current revival there. I also loved the discussion re real presence...it's something I used to stress with my students. Thank you, again, for providing such a wonderful discussion... Grace and Peace to All!
Correction: as I have been blessed. Didn't have on my reading glasses.
This is what a true renewal means to me. The Holy Spirit is sometimes "noisy" but sometimes she is quiet. And she is often gentle. I like that. The fact that God is using a school associated with a mainline denomination and Calvinism seems significant to me. This hasn't started in the Pentecostal Movement like some would expect.
Calvinism?
There has been all types of mainstream religious denominations used to break the barriers of being customary and letting the holy spirit truly lead beyond man's agenda.
The great Welsh revival there has been Methodists revivals with evidence of speaking in tongues, congregational, azusa Street revival. Only the holy spirit can truly usher in these things.
When the Helper comes, He will guide you in all Truth. John 16:13
If someone listens all the way through the video--which for me was a blessing, they'll understand my copy and paste of the following which I posted in the comments of a Juicy Ecumenism blog piece. I will also make the connection at the end of this comment.
Jesus fulfilled the OT Law” because He made available NT Graces [sic, for plurality emphasis] whereby His brethren could obey NT Laws (yes, I count a half dozen or so) by the S(s)pirit-not by the flesh and not contained in fleshly ordinances.
Chief among those Graces is the available fullness of Agape Love, of course, because “if you [truly] love Me you will obey my commandments,” thus coming full circle back to the aforementioned.
“Then I will sprinkle clean water upon you…a new heart also will I give you…and I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statues, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.” Ezek. 36
30, oops, 40 years ago I lay prostrate on my tile floor weeping profusely on end, torn between the pain and hatred of finding out my estranged wife joined herself to another man, and Truth. As Grace would have it, in the perhaps weeks or months prior I had been dissecting the Corinthian definition of Agape Love, resulting in a 3 or 4 page outline. That night on my floor “God [had] grant[ed me] repentance to the acknowledging of the truth” I was not walking in love as commanded and defined by God. My inner conflict resolved, God instantaneously delivered me from hatred and immediately replaced it with the fullness of His Love for ALL and all equally-yes, even for ‘him.’ (Tell me that that’s not like walking into a wild west saloon declaring oneself the fastest gun.)
Fast forward 20 years when I came across a website whereupon was posted the material of the...Wesley Heritage Library CD (careful, there are 2 with similar titles, one better). When surfing heritage testimonies from John’s days (yep, we’re on a first name basis), to my amazement I read of others who also experienced the Holy Spirit instantaneouly dropping into them the all-encompassing, full completeness of God’s Agape (contrary to mass teachings declaring Fruits are gradually grown)....
(Oh, and that contemporary saying declaring love is not love until it is given away: WRONG! God’s Agape is an existential state of being, given away when and to whom He ordains it.; when not, a repose, not being a doormat as Satan’s fears would have someone believe.)
END OF COPY & PASTE
The two professors--to whom I extend much thanks--mentioned a correlation they sensed between the recent A.U. outpouring/revival and the mid-1700's Wesleyan Revival. I recently came across what was arguably credited as being Wesley's most famous quote. To para. and cond., he said for the believer to love all others everywhere and everyplace and all the time. This obviously is dichotomous to what I claimed above is correct doctrine concerning Love's expressions by the matured-in-it Christian.
I make this argument here because, while I also do hope and pray that the event at A.U. leads to something more, it must not morph into those so affected that it results in Christian self-righteousness. This would lead to pride, result in Christian arrogance, surface as haughty countenances, and Prov. 6:16-17a warns of how such would finalize itself in God's hatred.
God manifests His Presence to anesthetize the believer with His Love for and acceptance of them, so He can prepare them for what He wants to reveal is still in their heart that stands between His fullness and them. He will then offer godly sorrow & remorse, then epentance, then deliverence, and finally a holy replacement such as the fullness of some Fruit of the Spirit (Joy or Love or....).
ALL BY GRACE, so "that no flesh shall glory in His Presence."
Jesus said, "Apart from Me [Grace], you can do NOTHING [of eternal signifigance--and reward]."
I.e., anesthesia must precede heart surgery, otherwise we couldn't bear the pain.
roman Catholicism is not Christianity.
I myself am not Catholic, neither would know how to properly define and confine "Roman Catholicism." I DO recall many years ago when studying the history of how Mainline denominations were affected by the charismatic renewal, I came across a "lay priest" Ralph Martin and his Renewal Ministries ministry in Ann Arbor, MI. I sent for their free booklet. I read it. I could not discern anything whatsoever wherein it differed from my born-again evangelical Protestantism theology.
God is not bound by our errors--we ALL have some.