I have had bad experiences similar to yours. The lesson I have learned is to never allow anyone into my home that I do not know well. It comes with age. Glad you are safe.
I came of age as a gay man in the midwest in the late 70’s and early 80’s. At that time there were no less than 4 serial killers of gay men active in my area. Two of them you have heard of I’m sure: John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer. The other two are less known, but they actually got their victims from gay bars that I went to. Larry Eyler and Herb Baumeister. Between the four men they killed at least 82 men. (If you haven’t heard of the last two they are both in Wiki. My point is that danger is always there around the gay community. Whether it is serial killers, gay bashers or just really disturbed people you still have to be careful. I survived these guys, and I also avoided getting AIDS despite being sexually active for a few years before tests were available. I count myself very lucky, and I never take that for granted. Be safe everyone. And anytime you are going to meet someone always let someone know where you will be, and when you should be back. And remember to practice situationsl awareness at all times. And drinking is always dangerous in excess. Please be safe . We are meant to survive but it is up to us. 27:46
I’m 41 and ALWAYS have this in the back of my mind, so I’ll NEVER take a drink from someone I don’t know.. I’m very untrusting about a drink having something put in it that’ll either drug or temporarily paralyze me where my life could be jeopardized. I’ve heard about the past serial killers and most recently, the killer in the Netflix documentary “Don’t fu@k with Cats!” Too many young gay men are way too trusting of not realizing that their life could be snuffed out in as fast as one bad mistake. I’m glad to see I’m not the only one that thinks about this stuff.
ALWAYS trust your first instinct. It’s the hardest thing ever, because we always want to “try it”. When I haven’t listened, I get hurt (mostly emotional). You’re very self aware for a young guy !!! Thank you for being so open. Alcoholic,nervy, too comfortable too soon.
Humans are the only creatures that don’t listen to their instinct. We worry about hurting someone’s feelings and will push ourselves right into the fearful situation that our instinct is warning us about. With other animals, the first feeling they get, the immediately run. It’s quite interesting that we’ll run right into the situation our instinct is warning us about. Our instinct is what nature gave us to protect our lives so it’s important that we listen to it and learn how to use it.
Thank goodness, you did not become a statistic. Hope yyou learned a serious lesson from this. Stay safe, stay healthy, and by all means, stay alive, and beautiful.
You are so beautiful and your voice is so sultry. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I guess it was a lesson learned, believe me it could have ended much worse. Always trust your gut🙏🌟💫
I'm so sorry this happened to you and that the commenters have also let you down. A similar situation happened to me in the 90s. I can't speak to how you felt but I would advise you not to be either embarrassed or ashamed because somebody else behaved shameful and embarrassing. When my incident occurred all I was thinking was how to diffuse this situation and get myself safe. I lied like crazy to this a-hole to get him out of my apartment and thankfully it worked. Sending you online hugs.
It was so nice hearing your thoughts. I am the same way where I don't like giving up my power. That takes trust and safety for me to willingly give that up. Nice to know I am not the only one.
Admirable of you to be this revealing about yourself and this experience. It reminds us to try and respect the instinct the self-preservation. And for anyone who may be Dom top, hopefully some compassion for what you went through and that they won't assume everyone is looking for what they have to offer.
You are a man an intelligent and strong one (by looking at you) and you put yourself in a questionable situation. I appreciate that you mentioned, correctly, that a woman would be more vulnerable in a similar situation. I hope that other folks who listen to your story will learn from it.
That was a horrible situation but I’m glad that you’re ok. That’s the reason why I stopped using it years ago. Probably best to meet someone on a night out where you just click immediately.
I think your final insight is the closest to the truth: whatever he had going on, it was his issue, not yours. You don't have to participate. If you're dealing with a friend on the phone or texting or at work, you can walk away, not engage, not answer a text. But in your own home, you have to deal with it immediately; you can't ignore it. I think you did a good job defusing and moving things along. I get an idea the embarrassment might come from: your friend's story. She had the wisdom to (a) set up a first meeting outside the home and (b) insist on driving herself there instead of accepting a ride. You know that you can still have your grindr experiences, not be a nun, but be like your friend and be safer about it. I know I regret years later the chances I took; nothing bad ever happened, but they were risks that in hindsight weren't worth it.
Your intuition likely saved you from a violent event. His reaction asking if you felt unsafe and being disappointed confirms your intuition sensing danger. That guy was probably a sociopath and you were very lucky because it could have gone very bad.
Yes I was thinking the same. And assuming he was(although it's hard to say just from that for sure) people on the pathological narcissism spectrum (narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths) often elicit what called "the uncanny valley" response in people. They have the same reaction to narcissists as they do to very human-like androids. People aren't sure why they feel that way but something just feels "off" . They are sensing that the narcissist is a fraud and not a real human being at all. Others often cannot articulate what it is they don't like about the narcissist - who usually seems to be the picture of friendliness and sincerity - they just know they don't like it. Narcissists have a pretty severe empathy deficit. Empathy is the understanding of the reality of other people's emotions and the ability to understand how these emotions impact other people, how they make others feel. Narcissists can not read understand or interpret the emotional states of other people accurately. Narcissists are studying your reactions, since they lack empathy they have no other way to gauge what any of the things that you're saying or doing mean. Narcissists generally cannot read or interpret these reactions very well at all and due to the level of projection that they're engaging in they appear to only interpret things through the lens of what they themselves are thinking and feeling anyway without consideration for any other Factor at all. They watch reactions and they interpret these through their own emotional and self-referential lenses and they tend to believe that they are far more accurate regarding this than they really are. It is common for them to assume the other person is lying about or doesn't know their own feelings and motivations than it is for them to even consider the possibility that they themselves could be wrong. Their interpretation of things is based on projection of their own emotions, fears and insecurities. There is no one who fears weakness and helplessness more than an abuser. Very little if anything else their perspective lens is entirely self-referential entirely. How they become versed in manipulation is practice and mimicry. The type of manipulation narcissists engage in most often is the very basic emotional manipulation that even little kids know how to engage. You don't need to understand how something works to do it. People prove that every day when they drive cars. Narcissists don't need to understand people's emotions to use them. Children can be very manipulative in the same kinds of ways and they don't understand how it works either with a child's limited experience and understanding of things. Narcissists brains have attempted to compensate for these deficits in ways that mimic normal functioning as much as possible, such as observing reactions in place of empathy. They engage in mimicry and imitation, often without ever understanding why they are doing the things that they're doing because their only real goal is to give the right response and keep up the charade that they're not having the enormous amount of difficulty and that they're the same as everybody else. They do what they have seen other people do in similar situations or what they have learned works. This is why their responses are often offbeat or inappropriate. They don't appear able to truly read and understand emotional states to innately respond the way that people with empathy do so. As a result of that they often miss the Mark or get it wrong. Think about how you process things when you're talking to somebody just in a regular conversation. Odds are you're not spending all of your time frantically trying to read their expressions and interpret their body language to look for cues or racking your brain for what the right response is to whatever they're saying so that you can seem like you understand and you're just like everybody else. You're just talking and because you have empathy all of that is happening automatically for you and transmitting information to your brain without you even realizing it. You are able to rely on your perceptions in this area to the point that you don't even need to pay any conscious attention to them, that's just happening for you automatically. For people who don't have empathy this does not happen. They have to often consciously and intentionally attempt to translate what they're hearing and seeing into some kind of understanding of what's being said and how the other person feels. Narcissists struggle enormously with mentalization, which is the understanding of the mental states of the self and other people. A process that helps us understand the motivations behind the behavior of ourselves and others. We can use the skill of mentalization plus our empathy to try to understand ours or other's behavior and if we ask them what's wrong and they decide to tell you you can use the skill of mentalization and your empathy to have that conversation and really be able to understand what they're telling you and where they're coming from. Narcissists cannot do these things. They Instead try to consciously translate what they're seeing and hearing and are projecting onto and reading into these things as well, which means that not only are they attempting to translate and interpret something that they really have no understanding of it all in the first place, they are superimposing their own fears traits feelings insecurities and whatever ever else on top of that and because their perspective is almost entirely self-referential they assume by default that everything is about them. Lack of empathy is not caused by a lack of emotions as narcissist have emotions. Psychopaths not so much, but most narcissists do have their own emotions. But having emotions does not equate to understanding emotions. Narcissists generally don't understand or connect with their own emotions either. Asking them questions about their emotions or attempting to try to talk about these things often just goes nowhere. Narcissists often struggle with even admitting to feeling emotions as well, especially those that are perceived to be negative like anger. There is every possibility that many narcissists are not really able to recognize connect with or even name their own emotions, This is very much like a child and narcissists do have arrested emotional development so it makes sense. Even those who may seem able to superficially discuss or engage with their own emotions often flounder when it comes to any real discussion about them. They can engage in emotional manipulation without understanding or even recognizing the underlying emotions or other mechanics involved. It's similar to when you use a remote control. They've learned which buttons to push based on observation and experience, this allows them to achieve desired outcomes without any real emotional Insight or understanding at all. They're following a learned pattern. Often they can't seem to make any significant adaptations to their manipulative structure or pattern based on the situation or people involved with remarkably few variations. They're unable to read people and their reactions to adapt. They're acting according to learn behaviors and patterns not any innate ability to read and interpret other people or to even understand the reality of the situation or other people or themselves. Studies that consistently demonstrate the same thing over and over again people with high levels of narcissism cannot read or interpret the emotions facial expressions or body language of other people accurately and this leads to massive miss interpretations and misunderstandings on their part. This is made worse by the fact that many narcissists not only engage in projection along with this, but they mistake projection for empathy believing themselves to be seeing and feeling the emotions of other people, when in fact these things belong to them and are just reflections of their own emotions, fears, traits and insecurities. Because they are sure that they are feeling other people's feelings they cannot be convinced that they're wrong. They can feel it they're therefore it's true because narcissists opperate off of feelings and not facts. Not only are narcissistic people unreliable narrators in reading others, their perception is clouded and self-referential and their motives are self-serving and often hidden. They do not see reality, they do not see you, they cannot read you and this person's whole goal is to create and uphold their own narrative. They are acting out a movie in their heads and they are reading this script from that movie not you, they are in a different reality than you.They interpret your actions and reactions according to that, not according to actuality. Everything they do and say is toward that end, whether intentionally or otherwise, whether it hurts other people or not. It's not to get along better or improve relationships or to offer honest feedback in order to help you. It's not to resolve anything or to understand things better. It is for that one reason and that reason only. Their perception of you, themselves, just basic reality is totally compromised and should essentially be completely ignored. You can't take what they say about you seriously and allow it to get into your head. You will be swallowed up in their single-minded pursuit of identity and importance. Their manipulation are just targeting other people's ego's need for validation and to feel special, which every person is vulnerable to that. .
You have nothing to feel embarrassed about. I am proud of you because of the simple fact, you acknowledge that you made a huge mistake by letting a total stranger in your house by trusting him and sadly to say a lot of people repeat the same mistake over and over again putting themselves.In bad situation .By you making this video I’m quite sure you are helping a lot of people to maybe think twice before allowing a total stranger into their home . Because as gay men I think we forget the possible danger that we could come across simply because it’s a gay dating app, not realizing that there are a lot of bad actors with bad intentions. So thank you for bringing up this awareness.
Don't feel ashamed, you followed your instinct and managed to keep yourself safe. There are some dodgy people out there. Its best to get some idea of expectation before meeting up even with meeting people from an app.
Allow someone to talk for 5 minutes and they will tell you exactly who they are. And when they do, believe them! The world is full of sociopaths and you encountered one. I'm glad it didn't escalate when you stood up to him. Thank-you for sharing your experience and calling him out in this video.
Lmao, he’s the psychopath?? I would’ve thought the psychopath was the one who thought that having manners, and asking a guest if they want a drink is an indication they want to vandalize your bathroom! Dear lord, what planet are you ppl on? Who didn’t get what they want and is now attempting to psychoanalyze here? A generation that’s too afraid to walk out the front door without a helmet should not be running around and calling ppl too aggressive There’s a difference between FEELING threatened vs BEING threatened
@@SeeburgMusicROFL THANK YOU!! This guy is out here accusing ppl of being a psychopath because they dare come over to his place and forgot to worship him. Idk, maybe hooking up with a stranger on grinder isn’t his thing. But why blame the stranger?? Maybe, just maybe, it would’ve been nice to actually ask someone if they want a drink?? Instead of making a half hour attempt at psychoanalysis - and then accusing the other person of attempting psychoanalysis 🤦🏻♂️ I can 100% have sympathy for someone who is shy, or uncomfortable, but I would give this dude a reason to be uncomfortable for running around and telling ppl I was going to vandalize his bathroom 🙇🏻♂️ Ppl have serious problems that need to be addressed, and need to figure out something better than TH-cam, to address them
Your videos are always so...interesting, Keven. 🙈 A normal Grindr user haha. With experience you'll get better at vetting online hook ups so they are more fulfilling for you 👍🏼. I'm glad you feel like sharing with us. 🏳🌈 Looking forward to the next hook up story time. ✅ Yeah, this was sorta weird for both of you.
If someone makes you feel uncomfortable, it's a red flag. Don't overthink or overanalyze your feelings at the time you have them. You have every right to end and exit the social interaction based on your feelings of discomfort (regardless of the immediacy of the timing when you experience that discomfort).
@@KevenTalksyeah sure, but instead of expecting him and the world around you to ‘pick up a hint’ and leave, maybe you should speak up? At least as much as you are here?? Seriously You sound way too sensitive and if you need this much security, maybe you shouldn’t be having randoms over. Think about this.
@@basedmoho2062 I told him I didn't feel comfortable, stopped immediately, and then proceeded to have a conversation with him. This was my retelling of that event & making sense of it.
@@basedmoho2062 I disagree. People do the best they can do based on their experience. He is clearly sensitive, nothing wrong with that. It isn't about what he could do, it is about what he will learn how to do as time goes on. I personally have handled things totally different than I did a decade ago. One isn't better than the other. I just have a different level of experience under my belt.
@@MrjustinR I mean, why is he more deserving of this magnanimous compassion of yours, than the person he invited over, and eviserated on TH-cam? It appears your mercy is rather Inconsistent & biased
You get that power move socially too from people who have dominant personalities and see others as submissive, even non-sexually. If you don’t go along with it, they assume it's some kind of fault in you and try to impose their ‘psychoanalysis' on you. It's their way of staying 'in control' when they've been rejected. 😂
It's a pretty gross quality. What's interesting is they aren't smart enough to realize you pick up on it, so then you have to play along. I played dumb long enough to get him out.
Dude, your first mistake is to think that inviting anyone who is a totally unknown stranger into your personal space may be safe in our 21st-century American society. First, meet up in a public space among other people, like a restaurant. There, you can safely feel the other person's energy and decide if you're interested in more. Stay safe and be happy!
@@johnconstable8512 Antonio, here. Horniness gets blamed all the time. Might as well say, "The Devil made me do it!" Stay safe by being wise and responsible for yourself, everybody!
@@littleceaser7268 In life, we all can pick up some energy from other people. In the end, we are all adults and have to decide what is in our best interest period. No regrets.
I really enjoyed this story. You were getting red flags from your gut instinct trying to look out for you. Always trust your gut. That was also smart how you thought some of these situations out, in the moment, with what reaction was best to keep this guy calm. Always remember too that if you start to feel like things could be escalating or say the guy stayed in the bathroom for a long time where he might’ve been about to pull something on you, you can always walk out of your place. You can yell in that you’ll be at the front door when he’s finished. Yes, it leaves your belongings in jeopardy, but they can always be replaced while your life can’t. People like that are also less likely to do something in public. PS. The gay serial killer in Canada was killing gay men he met in apps by “dominating” them and handcuffing them to the bed. Once he had them handcuffed, he’d strangle them and there was nothing they could do. The sick bastard would then take a photo modeling with each “trophy” he had killed, just like humans do with deer. You 100% made the best decision with stopping him in his tracks as soon as he started that “domineering” talk.
Thankyou for sharing your experience. I'm glad that it ended up OK for you. Of all the dating apps, THAT one in particular has been the most challenging for me. I've been called a 'time waster' for asking how some-one's day was. I've been blocked after asking how long it will take them to get to my place. I've been on the end of conversations where guys insist that they want to meet - but won't commit to a time or place. I've asked completely 'normal' questions and got responses in a tone like it was a complete inconvenience to answer. I don't use it any more. I don't need to be treated that way. There are other apps.
I hear you. On these apps, there's a lot of projection of people's own traumas and past grievances. Very unfortunate. It's even palpable in this comments section!
I’m really glad I watched this to the end. You give a very complete set of thoughts. And I’ve met people on Grindr who have turned out to be absolute best friends, some with a sex aspect and others somewhat unexpectedly without sex but still a friend totally true. And I’m talking about people I’ve had to my house or hotel or rented apartment, whatever. I’ve had certainly more good experiences than bad. And the few bad ended up more along the lines of “I’m sorry, i think you should leave.” I did have one pre-Grindr experience where I hooked up with someone in a restaurant and then he wanted to come back to my hotel. Something just didn’t feel right but I took a cab with him back to the hotel. I’m not quite sure how I slipped out of it, but I think I said something like, just hang on a minute I need to check on something as we were getting out of the cab. I went straight to my room. He didn’t know what room I was in and probably couldn’t have gotten there without a key anyway. Sometimes you just have to work on instinct in such cases.
Thank your for sharing your experience. This guy putting it on you as you're the one with a problem, is an example of gas lighting. It's a technique narcissists use in not taking any responsibility in a situation. Narcissist have a difficult time with empathy, meaning they have none. A casual hook up is an example of someone USING someone else to get the sexual satisfaction one is physically craving. I believe it's important to feel a connection with someone before having sex with them. This angle of approach comes after many years of experience using people for sexual gratification.
This is scary. Please be careful. I will not judge you or your situation, but I do worry about you. I will say this your instincts were warning you, You have to trust them. You felt and sensed something was not right. When you were telling the story, it was just scary and creepy. Be honest with yourself and your dates in the future. Please do not invite people you do not know to your house. Something was just not right. You do not know what was going to happen and he lingered around for too long also. I am thankful you are here able to share.
I had a very similar situation to this, albeit the person did show more warmth than the person you're describing. I also liked him quite a bit, and felt bad I didn't communicate my boundaries as well as I could have, so he took it as me being completely turned off by him which wasn't necessarily the truth. 😅 But boy do I feel this story and for you, you have no clue. ❤ We also didn't discuss stuff in the way you did, we just both sort of read in between the lines of our behavior and awkwardness, but didn't pressure each other for final answers. I also get the projection thing you were talking about. I could also sense this guy projecting a lot of his own stuff and trauma onto me, as a person that used to also do that to others, I picked up on it.
The major issue here is you allowed a complete stranger into your home based on a brief text conversation. But given this fact, you were right to try and diffuse before it escalated into something more dangerous. PLEASE never put your safety at risk like that again.❤
I had scary experiences with guys on that app too. It’s so weird to have anyone come to your apartment and you’ve never met… don’t know what he’s capable of, or his record or anything. I still have nightmares about one guy who came over and wouldn’t leave one dark winter night back in 2020 😬 He was totally different from his profile and I was truly scared.
Dude I feel for you, man the world is complicated and so are many people! Glad nothing extreme happened. I don't know if since you guys are younger the protocols of communication with Apps have somewhat enhanced the inadequacy in many, although selfish and self absorbed individuals have always existed.
@@KevenTalks Keven I wonder if you would of just flat out said to him "man what is this fuck by numbers?" and if you(him)can't let it happen organically then just leave. Sorry Keven, don't mean to be a Day after Quarterback(sorry for the butch reference, Lol!).
The downside of random hook up culture is that you have a guy on the couch who you don’t know anything about except what he tells and shows you. It sounds like you handled this graciously and are willing to assess what happened and the role you played in it.
Watching your video is like re living an experience I had recently. Your whole experience is like what happened to me. He too asked to go to the toilet and was there for about 10 minutes. I also heard him try to make a phone call which extra freaked me out.
People are so different. It is possible that in talking with you that he was trying to build trust. Talking to somebody and asking how they are feeling is something some people like. IT could have been a general interest in trying to relate. Still, you have to trust your guilt.
@@KevenTalks I hear you and don't get me wrong, you have to trust your gut. I will say after watching a bunch of your stuff, I thought it was interesting. I def had a different view, for example on the guy that had the dentist appointment. At first, I felt he was pulling your leg, but he wasn't. I don't see a reason to be so hard about it. Everybody is different, I guess I am making this comment just to say that sometimes we are hard on each other, and I am not sure if we always have to. I personally find the more open I am, the easier it is to get to know people. I try (and it is tough) to not put too much judgement on these things. Again, Just an opinion. Always trust your gut when in doubt. Enjoyed your videos.
I navigate Grindr by just being direct. If the hookup isn't what I expected or it just feels off, I ask them to leave. Saying you don't think there is much chemistry between you is perfectly valid given only communicated on an app. Trying to psychoanalyze a stranger is a loosing battle. You just don't know what their intensions and history are. From your story though it sounds like the guy has issues. I've had guys try to convince me that I agreed to their fetishes when I never would have.
I have a habit of letting people get too much of my time / not standing up for myself firmly (that's part of the shame). At the same time the fear I was feeling made me go into "fight or flight" mode - so I didn't feel I could be 100% candid or direct with him either. What you mentioned about fetishes is gnarly! People are nuts and may use these opportunities to play mind games.
Right on. At any point we all have the right to say it is not working or to walk away period. Remember not everyone is looking exactly what you are and vice versa. It is okay to say no and be done.
One of the beautiful gifts we have received from nature as gay men is a very good intuitive sense. LISTEN TO YOUR GUT guys! If your gut signals you, pay attention immediately!
Gay men are hardly a great sample of the population to demonstrate overly developed good intuition, and many gay men who have it learned from experience. We all get enough of that after all. No front.
Keven, be assertive right back at him from the start as soon as you sense it from them. Have an exit plan like my roommate or brother is going to be home in X number of mins. Got to go! Finally, let a close friend know that you are having someone over as a safety net and to call you if they don't hear from you at a preset time. Take Care.
I think the woman friend you talked to about this was correct that the guy had a power complex and your instincts about him were right. When you failed to go along with his domineering behavior, his reaction to pseudo-psychoanalyze you was an attempt to retain dominance by trying to convince you that there must be something wrong with you since you did not want to participate in fulfilling his fantasy. Don't let his bad behavior and mind games make you think that you did anything wrong nor that you have any reason to feel guilt or shame. Your trying to diffuse the situation rather than possibly anger him was a natural, instinctual reaction in that potentially unsafe situation. Perhaps he would have been OK if, in response to his pseudo-psychoanalysis, you had said that regardless of the reasons, it is clear that we wanted different things for this encounter, so we should just call it a night and part with no hard feelings. Or, perhaps that might have set him off as you feared. Who knows? In the end, your attempts to diffuse the situation worked and he left without incident, and all it cost you was a little extra wasted time feeling uncomfortable and ill at ease. Don't let the encounter cost you even more wasted time feeling unwarranted shame. If there is any shame in this situation it is not on you, it is on him for his behavior.
Back in the day I met-up with a guy who seemed so normal, so nice, so friendly. We went out to lunch and within the hour, the whole date was creepy. He was so demanding, so dominant, and it was clear, there weren't going to be any safe words. It was all him. I was medium build, strong and wiry but I knew I couldn't handle him. He was big. (Hence the attraction to begin with). So I excused myself to go and pee and then literally snuck out the side door of the restaurant because I was so scared of him. Watch your back guys and be safe.
In an ideal world we could invite anyone over and have a good time but I could never feel comfortable 'hosting' someone I don't know in my own personal space. I cherish my privacy too much and don't trust people until I get to really know them
it is so easy to meet people in "real life." I saw my future life partner in a club. So handsome. When I saw him in front of another club I went up to him "You wouldn't look at me." He replied "I didn't see you." Said I "Would you like a drink." He moved in within 3 weeks (how lesbian, right?) and we had a wonderful life together for 18 years until he passed. I miss him to this day, but I still meet other people in the same fashion. Dating apps are simply creepy
When do you really get to know somebody though? I've known certain people for almost two years and I still dont really know who they are and what they are capable of.
I wish people would stop starting with negative judgements. We start doing risking things the moment we get out of bed in the morning. Keven is right we cannot live in fear of strangers. We simply need to be prepared, if things go south, to keep ourselves as safe as possible. You can meet great people on line and you can meet some real duds. Such is life. One thing I will say is we must listen to our gut feelings...if we sense something off we need to listen just as Keven did. Keven, it is wonderful that you have shared this experience with us.
We take chances all the time, especially when libido and alcohol are involved. I understand viewers' feedback of course, but I don't think it's totally realistic either. "Why would you use Grindr?!" Either way, I could've "vetted" the guy better. Honestly he seemed nice enough, and he WAS. But it felt like a surface niceness if that makes sense.
Hmmm... what you didn't say was what was on his Grindr profile. I'm a submissive bottom and I love these take charge kind of guys. I seek them out. I love feeling disempowered and existing to serve their sexual desires and needs only. You sound somewhat more versatile, with a preference for pleasing each other. I guess that the dialog on Grindr wasn't clear enough as to what the expectations were? Did you check his "tags"? Did you do a search with your own "tags"? Am I wrong? Was this guy really that creepy? I know that I've never been in a situation like this. Grindr can be great but you've got to know the desires of the other guy. You got lucky, in a way, and you're clearly rattled about it. At least you're safe now. It's a great learning experience. I wish you the best.
He described himself as a "dom top," but beyond that, nothing was remotely unusual or alarming. I always thought "dom top" just meant a guy who enjoys being in charge in the bedroom (AKA a top, but maybe a bit more verbal or something). Verbal is fine, taking charge is fine, but there's a limit (for me) - I don't like when sex becomes about 1 person's needs or desire. If I had indicated I specifically wanted that dynamic, it would be different in my IMO. Am I wrong?
@@KevenTalks Of course you're not wrong. Feelings are neither right nor wrong in a moral sense. Your feelings are your feelings. They are valid. I guess next time, zero in on the "dom" part of top and ask more questions about what he means about being a dom. Also, ask him not to edit his thoughts. This way you can decide if he's right for you or not. For me, I would definitely be attracted to a "dom top." I would even swipe past a guy who says they are only a "top." It tells me they are somewhat versatile. Going forward, maybe there could be something in your profile that more specifically states your preferences? I wonder too if, when you met this guy, you did not vibe on an attractive/chemical level? It's impossible to force being attracted to someone. It's there or it's not. As a thin, weak, submissive bottom, I've got to be very careful. I try to meet guys in public first, usually in the day for coffee, just to be sure. Guys have said that insisting on meeting first isn't submissive. Then again, it's 2am and I've got to protect myself. For me, it's crazy to have sex with a guy you've never met before and the other guy shouldn't be upset about it. Sure, once we meet, and if everything goes well, have your way with me.
Someone that lacks empathy and compassion totally is a narcissist or phycopath. Gotta be careful. They also don't read social cues as well as you and I. They don't even understand their own feelings let alone someone else's.
I'm still unsure whether with a personality type like his, it's better to be absolutely direct or handle like I did. It seems in retrospect he did have a harder time picking up on cues - yet in the moment, I felt if I was too blunt, he may be reactive. Perhaps that's just my own paranoia - not sure.
This is why i never use apps. What you did Keven, was like having a new car delivered to your house before test driving it...I want to see how shiny the paint is first! Better luck next time.
I think your lucky that he didn't hurt you .. he could of been a complete nutter you have to be very careful who you let in to your home if I were you id make sure you never see him again over the years hosting and traveling for hook ups ive had cases where ive stopped the situation because my gut didnt feel the situation was right there are a lot of crazies out there just be careful xx
@johnm5229 I've heard so many stories over the years... bringing strangers home is very risky. One guy's house was completely thrashed because the other guy couldn't take no for an answer.
@@-az-1236 It is why, it is better to meet at a neutral place and go from there. Never should anyone be in a hurry to bring anyone home or have intimacy. In addition, if someone wants quick meaningless sex, there are bathhouses. The options are there for each person to explore what they feel comfortable with.
Or Maybe don’t bring a stranger into your house if you are THIS sensitive and incapable of being assertive enough to ask them to leave besides ‘taking a hint’ This guy was expecting his guest to vandalize his bathroom!! Did you see any indication of this poor guy behaving in a way that would justify such paranoia?! God forbid he was offered a drink! I’m in shock by this generation
I totally understand your reactions. I HATE power games. It for me is a BIG turnoff as it was/is for you. It's unfortunate that your reaction is shame. You have no reason to feel that way. The guys was creepy and domineering; it's definitely NOT you! The conversation you reported was totally off and not appropriate for the circumstance. We learn from our experiences so learn, remember and if you encounter someone else like this you'll see the red flags and end the session and thrown them out! 🙂
Being vulnerable is something that makes us all feel uncomfortable, and in the right situation, it can be the beginning of becoming good friends if there is not attraction on both sides, or it can allow for mind blowing incredible sex. Sometimes it can happen instantly with the right person, other times, a good horizontal friend can turn into something that can last for several years and gets better as the 2 people trust each other more. The jerk-wad you are discussing here tried to intimidate you and force you to do something that you were not comfortable with doing. You always have the right to change your mind, and tell the other person, NO! This isn't going to work, or tell the other person that he needs to leave, or leaving his place if you sense something is off, unsafe, or of you get bad vibes. I learned a long time ago that I should trust my instincts, they are almost always correct. You did great! Don't take BS from anyone. I also wanted to comment on the issue you mentioned about shame, there's no reason why anyone should feel shame for being who they are. God does not create heterosexuals full-time. I know I was created as a gay man. Anyone else who wants to argue about that can walk in my shoes for a while, or see and be what I experienced. There were several people who tried to impose and put guilt and shame on me when I was younger. At some point later on in my life, I saw many of these same people who who they really are. Many of them are nothing but hypocrites, and preach one thing but practice something entirely different. They tried to preach their values, but often times their value system is based on trying to focus on someone else, or point the finger at someone else as a diversionary tactic, because they don't want others to notice who they really are. Many times they people like that don't want to look at themselves. I am very thankful and relieved that I didn't end up being like them. That's another thing, stay away from organized religion, the majority of OR is complete and total BS. It took me a long time to have clarity and to be comfortable in my own shoes, but it was worth it. I hope for the best for you as you continue in life.
First, I should say I am in my early 50s so most of my dating and hooking up was very analog. Meet at bars, parties, going about your day, etc. and after some conversation you may want to go to one of your places if there’s a spark or desire to date. I’ve done tons of online dating where you eventually meet in person at a bar or for coffee. But I’ve not made the recent transition to Grindr where strangers show up at your door for sex. I am so uncomfortable with that and can’t ever imagine wanting to open my front door to a stranger and just start having sex. Now I know I’m older and that this is how younger guys meet now but I just think its ruining whatever joy or thrill there is when getting to know someone, even if its an hour or two, before the pressure of having to immediately start having sex. In addition to the emotional side, it’s also just risky cause you never know if you’re going to get a psycho. In your case, thank god he didn’t turn out to be violent. I just think he was a dominant alpha who likes to talk out the role after he’s gotten a buzz with some drinks. Him asking for a drink wasn’t unusual in my eyes cause lots of folks turn to a drink when they get home, visit a friend, have sex, etc. You weren’t compatible in terms of your flirting or sexual chemistry, and I think that’s all it was at the end of the day.
It doesn't matter if you've known someone five minutes or five years. I had someone i was hanging out with socially for almost two years decide one night that we were going to be more than friends. Instead of listening to my intuition and leaving, I spent several hours trying to diffuse the situation assuming he'd just had to much to drink and needed to sober up. That evening ended with sexual assault.
Seems like he wanted to be serviced and order the other guy around and be verbal. He realized that’s not your vibe and he didn’t like that. Some people are into that sub dom thing. You are very analytical and that’s fine. He needed alcohol asap in order for the hookup. You are in touch with yourself. I don’t think it was a terrible experience.
I'm sorry you had to go through this and most of all, I'm glad you were OK. Unfortunately I think this is more common than you might think. Many men have an immature understanding of reciprocity in human relationships, coupled with an intensely conditioned fear of vulnerability. They'll marshal every intellectual and emotional resource so as not to appear "weak." I also think patriarchal, heteronormative attitudes have trained many men to view potential sexual partners as merely conquests or objects to be dominated. Just like women are objectified as objects of power and control for some heterosexual men, I think the same thing happens in the context of sexual connections between some men. I've actually seen the inverse happen with some closeted gay men who are married to women - they make themselves into extremely submissive objects for the men they hook up with to "dominate" and "control." The opposite of the idea of wanting to possess the other. I'm reminded of a song from the musical Falsettos, where the wife of a closeted gay man who divorced her and came out is remarking on the damage men can do. She sings,: "I'm tired of all the happy men who rule the world/happy, frightened men who rule the world/they grow, of that I'm sure/they grow, but don't mature/I'd like a chance to hide in that world/I'm listening to these men who aren't quite men yet, but not boys make noise/they roar and throw their knives/their toys are people's lives/they fight too hard and play too rough/they sometimes love but not enough/my heart will beat at will, but still/it's crazy how they're acting/it's stupid, my response/it's silly how I love them, so dumb how I anticipate their wants/but as long as they amuse me, that alone is what's required/I'll explore what I'm feeling/ except what I'm feeling is tired, so tired/so tired of all these happy men who rule the world/happy, frightened men who rule the world ... " I think you may never know why this person did what they did. As upsetting as I'm certain it was, and beyond all the messages you are receiving about how you should or should not have done various things, I hope you'll take this opportunity to reflect on what you do want out of these kinds of connections. I won't judge you for bringing someone to your house, as that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do if you're in the mood for sexual connection. There's no inherent shame in that, despite what the Monday morning "quarterbacks" on here are telling you. But since you have a friend you can talk with about this stuff, have you considered letting your friend know when you've invited someone to your house? Not going into details, just a heads-up so that - for example - if things start to go south, you can give your friend the heads-up that you're feeling unsafe. It may sound far fetched, but I now wish I'd had that kind of "buddy system" in my 20s. I went out quite a bit and there were a lot of visits to houses of strangers I'd just met. Nothing ever happened, but I was in a couple very dicey situations very early on when I was far too young to defend myself. Lastly, I'm not sure if this is helpful - but I think you are in Miami? I've had an overwhelmingly negative impression of the gay dating and hookup scene there, especially from friends who live there. Gay friends have described some extraordinarily hurtful and unhealthy experiences they've had while navigating sex and dating. Some actually shocked me with how callous and cruel the people were. I'm not sure if you are tied to Miami but the men in other cities seem to all be of better quality in other places. I know that doesn't help you now, but if you are considering a move, I think just about every other major US city has nicer and kinder gay men. I know some wonderful gay men in the Miami/FLL area, but I (and they) get the impression that their kind and empathic natures put them in a minority there. Best wishes to you, and thanks for sharing this very personal experience.
Sounds like he may have had some psychopathic traits. There's some videos on TH-cam about some of them. Not everyone with these traits are the evil people in films who may harm you but I'm glad you got out of the situation. They can have insincere charm, be manipulative and don't feel empathy or emotion like we do. It sounds so creepy, what you went through. Trust your instincts!
Similar thing happened to me with a guy in a group of friends that we both have in common who’d I’d met once before. We were all out and he asked if I was gonna buy him a drink then told me he was staying at mine as he lived too far away. I thought it’d be ok as my other friends know him. He acted just like this and when I went to the toilet he left without telling me. This guy talking about the pet store was basically saying he’s the pet who’s been brought back home and now the buyer regrets it and he’s annoyed about that
@@KevenTalks I know! Especially on Grindr, you can never have a conversation, it makes me think all gay guys are uneducated even though I know they’re not!
This kind of situation is exactly the reason why I always meet for the first time in a busy neutral space for a coffee, to just get a gut reaction if this person is a good egg (or not). Then either one of you can invite the other to your house.
I wish I’d been able to have the presence of mind that you had when I met a stunning guy through an app. After mutually enjoyable foreplay, we agreed to have intercourse. He was not very gentle entering me, but I let him continue. This couldn’t be correctly described as rape because I gave consent and never withdrew that consent. But the sex was rough. In our talks, he never suggested that this was his style. And there were days of pain. I should have been assertive, but I know that I let him do this because I felt that he was gorgeous, way, way out of my league. That can be an unfortunate dynamic that sadly happens a lot.
I agree and the other one 'sniffes' is even worse... people can tell exactly where you are on a map. How creepy is that? I wish there was an app where you could choose who looks at your profile and pics and if you like them, they are allowed to message you. I get some really strange, awful messages that I wish I could unsee on grindr...
In a dating scenario, both parties usually understand they are each taking the time to get to know the other person before going deep into physical intimacy. That leads to well informed decisions to proceed or abort before you get into a wasteful or vulnerable situation. In a hookup scenario, both parties generally realize they are bypassing the prudent discovery process of a dating scenario, which means you're basically taking a mostly blind shortcut to get directly to sex. That's inherently a very hit or miss outcome. The odds of finding a good chemistry connection, when you take a random shortcut approach, are not very favorable. It's unrealistic to think you're gonna have mostly good results and exciting experiences using a methodology of not being fully informed in advance of the situation that you're getting yourself into. It's really a delusional fantasy that the hookup culture is all fun and happy games. The reality is, you might have an impressive hookup experience 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time, the hookup experience falls in the range between mundane and failure. In acting on the urge for instant gratification, it's important to realize that hookups are not like ordering custom pizza delivery. Anyone who claims it's that easy and successful, is peddling bullshit. More often than not, what shows up at the door, bears no resemblance to the pizza you thought you ordered. If you want to keep participating in hookup culture, you have to be prepared to firmly abort the hookup the moment it doesn't reasonably match what you were expecting it to be. Nobody can be compelled to do anything they don't want to do. "NO" means "NO". Period. If you don't stand firm, you're not only compromising your standards, you're also becoming an enabler for the fakes, flakes, and predators that infest hookup culture. Anyone who can't cope with rejection, is not your problem. There's only one healthy reaction to rejection: accepting it graciously and moving on promptly. Because why would you want to be with anyone who can't reciprocate wanting to be with you? If you get rejected, you should be immediately turned off by the thought of being with the person who rejected you. Your ego should not be so easily bruised. You might be a 7 on a good day, and a guy who is a solid 8 might reject you, but somewhere out there, another guy who is a solid 10 might see other qualities in you that makes you also a solid 10 in their eyes. Gay guys have very, very different tastes and preferences about the things that turn them on. There are super hot hung twinks who are repulsed by their own peers, but they think 'Daddies' are the hottest things on the planet. There really isn't a universal standard operating in both the hookup culture and the dating culture. Gay dudes are very much all over the map in terms of what they are attracted to. So, don't take the hookup scene seriously. It's very much a random series of events with very unpredictable outcomes. It is very definitely not a reliable, consistent, cookie cutter pattern of standardized behavior.
Is it possible that this man just had some degree of Autistic Spectrum Disorder? This came to my mind when you mentioned that he seemed to lack empathy.
A few other people mentioned this in the comments. Perhaps. But wouldn't an autistic person ask questions to find understanding, instead of making presumptuous assumptions? ("You're like the kid who gets a pet they don't want") 🤷🏻♂️
May I suggest that you are too nice? We can never fully understand what's going on in another person's mind; or what another's intention is... You extricated yourself mentally and nudged the guy to leave your place. That I'm sure is the best result.
When I was younger I was in a guys house and my instincts told me that something wasn't right (not sure what). But I excused myself, and immediately left the house. But I always remember being told "When entering an unfamiliar space, apart from the door you came through, always secretly scan that space for a way out, whatever/wherever it may be". On another occasion many, many years ago, in a more public place. I became aware of a guy in my presence hovering around. Many years later I found out by watching the news that the same guy from years before, was actually Stephen Port!.
When he was asking you about a pet you didn't want, that's when I would invite him to leave, telling him I wanted some physical fun, not a Freud session. Have a great night, goodbye. But then again, nobody would talk to me on Grindr so I guess at least you'll get people to talk to you and meet you? So you're lucky!
lol I agree that the pet analogy was bizarre. No one pointed this out in the comments, but it's also peculiar that his 2 analogies (gift-giving and getting a pet) revolved around receiving a present, which implies that's how he views himself. That speaks volumes, no?
I am not experienced in this area, but it seems to me that Grindr is the new dark alley....its the new batthouse. Of course, you're going to meet up with seedy danger.
Usually you exercise good judgment with hooking up (by not inviting someone to your place) unless you've been talking with someone for a few days. We all have lapses though. My biggest worry since I travel a lot is inviting someone to my hotel room and being robbed. It's just too crazy out there and you have to use a lot of precautions meeting at a neutral place first. Have you ever just gone to Hotel Gaythering for a hookup instead?
Seems like his ego was hurt because you didn’t want to play his dominant/sub game, these people can’t process they did something wrong or that there’s something wrong with them in any way, so they try to manipulate the situation to save their ego from rejection. I don’t know the dynamics for straight relationships, but at least for the so called “dominant” gay guys, they tend to be very influenced by what they see in porn, which is crazy and completely unrealistic. I think you handled that great, you’re very analytical and know when not to put yourself in more danger than necessary. At the end the day, we don’t know how he would’ve reacted if you just baldly told him to leave, the chances of getting a more violent reaction from him could’ve increased, better to de escalate and slowly reject 😅
You bring up a great point about a lot of these guys having delusional fantasies from watching porn. It's fine if that's what you're into - as long as the other party is seeking that dynamic, too.
I don't know how I would have handled this truthfully. I think you handled it well because obviously his dominating personality was a turn off. With guys like that in the past, for me, I usually call them on their bullshit and end up turning THEM out and making them submissive like this one guy who called himself "Christian Grey" (Lmao). I guess I've been lucky and never ran into a true psycho. This guy you're describing gives me the heebie jeebies I think it was best just to cut it off altogether.
This is a interesting story and has a gay man. I actually recall a date that I had just like this about eight or nine years ago and very similar experience.. He came over to my apartment and it was kind of similar and they made me feel very uncomfortable. He was asking kind of similar questions and things However, I’m very assertive and I just said I’m gonna go ahead and stop. I’m gonna ask you to leave and I’m sorry, but this isn’t gonna work for me and I appreciate you leave my apartment now. . He was upset, but he was OK and he just left Thanks for this is good to share with other people so they know that it’s not just them having. ❤❤❤❤
Seems like you had the misfurtune of meeting a narssicist. Glad you are OK. you seem like a very thoughtful, considerate and emotionally strong person. i can say i take something from you sharing this experience. I'm usually the person on the other side of this kinds of meetups and what you said about the difference between being submissive to someone and being inferior really resonated with me. i can say i know myself well enough to know i am respectful and know the difference and don't want to make my partner feel inferior but, after listening to your experience i think i will be even more attentive and communicative to make sure the other person is comfortable for sure and not just going with the flow as it were. i don't know if when you texted with that a**hole he seemed like he had a sense of humor or not. i can give u a tip from my experience. no sense of humor and espacially no capacity for self humor is a huge red flag. stay safe and enjoy and never compromise on what you like and what makes you feel good.
I don't know since I wasn't there but entirely possible if he potentially had an alcoholic drink with him and one you gave him he was buzzed or drunk. If that was the case it could explain his behavior. Also for me if that's the case for me I don't try to have a convo with drunk people or rationalize their behavior. On the flip side good for you that you are out there. Dating and especially gay men can be tough.
I realized that myself while making this video - the reminder about the drink made me realize he was potentially already drunk. Thanks for your comment Jon.
He may have been drunk, but most people don't suddenly get creepy and manipulative when they're drunk unless they already have those kinds of tendencies.
Keven you're in a sticky situation. You invited a guy over to your place for sex. You reject him. He tries to figure out why in a discussion with you. You were on the defensive the whole time. Worry about physical safety & fear of std's. You don't like his arrogance. What could you have done differently? Express these feelings to him. You (Keven) have trust issues. You do have trauma. When you first meet a guy, that's the time for brutal honesty. Which is attractive. The purpose of the wine is to loosen up. But I can't help but be shallow & think you didn't find him that sexy in person. Right now he is wondering why you rejected him. Just another flaky Grindr dude? Or what did I do wrong? Was I too confident? Why didn't he start psycho-analyzing me back? My advice is to practice talking frankly to dates. If you ask a guy if he has an STD & he does, he will block you. If he has no std, he will hook up with you. In general. Guys don't communicate clearly. Including you. Including me. Arrogant guys like to be called out on their confidence....but only by a caring lover. I don't believe you can't meet guys in Miami in person. Use this failed hookup as an opportunity to be more open. Good luck.
You had a Master mindset with you unannounced to you. He was not upfront with you about his expression and what he expected from you. That was very sloppy on his part , having a master personality myself. You just don't spring that on somebody without them having a clue. When an Alpha and a beta blend it can be quite wonderful you simply were not that candidate.
I had an experience about 20 years ago that thoroughly frightened me. The guy was dominant, and I could tell he was flirting with the idea of overpowering me, and he kept putting both hands around my throat which made it clear to me he was having fantasies about strangulation. I feigned a sudden headache and managed to get away from him. It took me a long time to get over that scare.
I am sorry that you had this kind of experience. Meeting up with strangers for sex will present many of the problems you addressed. There is never any guarantee of anything. It is like gambling. Whilst there is always the chance you could win, and win big, the chances of being disappointed are much greater. I'd suggest making it clear from the beginning, that you would prefer not having strangers in your home or to enter their home, but to rather get to know each other better. This will include likes and dislikes regarding intimacy. Having sex is one of the most personal things one can ever do, and so one cannot really judge others here, because casual sex is about instant gratification, and not about indepth psychological analysis. 👄
Goodness, that sounds scary--yours and your friend's experience. Unfortunately, canım, I can't relate to this situation because I'm a top. So, I don't know what it's like being a with a dominant man since I'm the only one playing that role. The only thing I can say, though, is that it takes two to tango. If one person is uncomfortable, it's no longer fair, just like how you have correctly explained. Pardon the personal information, but any time a bottom said to me that something is too much, I always watched the line and did not cross it, not asked him a thousand psychoanalytical questions... The psychoanalysis stuff I think has more to do with contemporary, North American culture. The fascination with psychology and this stuff has rocketed for the last twenty years, especially the childhood stuff, and so much talk has been going on about that. Fortunately for me, I don't spend much time in the secular world as I am a Spiritualist medium, and I also became Anglican earlier this year, so I am, thankfully, not surrounded by this subject. My constant topics of conversation are to do with astrology, the souls of the dead communicating, past lives, "fal" (our Turkish coffee), and sometimes the Bible and other religious stuff that are spiritual more than bossy. As for the this psychology and wychology stuff, it's not a subject you'll hear about often in those communities, unlike in the secular world of today. So, my guess--which could be wrong--is that he comes from that world, the topic is constantly on his mind, he could be projecting what his own therapist is telling him, and he's probably an alcoholic. That's the best that I can guess, other than that he has plenty of issues, but he wants to make you seem like the troubled one. All that I can say is that I am happy that you're safe, canım, and that this didn't result in a phone call to the police. Hopefully, it'll never go that route, and I especially hope that you'll never meet men like that again. Thanks for sharing.
I have had bad experiences similar to yours. The lesson I have learned is to never allow anyone into my home that I do not know well. It comes with age. Glad you are safe.
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I came of age as a gay man in the midwest in the late 70’s and early 80’s. At that time there were no less than 4 serial killers of gay men active in my area. Two of them you have heard of I’m sure: John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer. The other two are less known, but they actually got their victims from gay bars that I went to. Larry Eyler and Herb Baumeister. Between the four men they killed at least 82 men. (If you haven’t heard of the last two they are both in Wiki.
My point is that danger is always there around the gay community. Whether it is serial killers, gay bashers or just really disturbed people you still have to be careful.
I survived these guys, and I also avoided getting AIDS despite being sexually active for a few years before tests were available. I count myself very lucky, and I never take that for granted.
Be safe everyone. And anytime you are going to meet someone always let someone know where you will be, and when you should be back. And remember to practice situationsl awareness at all times. And drinking is always dangerous in excess.
Please be safe . We are meant to survive but it is up to us. 27:46
Wow. Thank you for sharing this.
I’m 41 and ALWAYS have this in the back of my mind, so I’ll NEVER take a drink from someone I don’t know.. I’m very untrusting about a drink having something put in it that’ll either drug or temporarily paralyze me where my life could be jeopardized. I’ve heard about the past serial killers and most recently, the killer in the Netflix documentary “Don’t fu@k with Cats!” Too many young gay men are way too trusting of not realizing that their life could be snuffed out in as fast as one bad mistake. I’m glad to see I’m not the only one that thinks about this stuff.
ALWAYS trust your first instinct. It’s the hardest thing ever, because we always want to “try it”. When I haven’t listened, I get hurt (mostly emotional). You’re very self aware for a young guy !!! Thank you for being so open. Alcoholic,nervy, too comfortable too soon.
Humans are the only creatures that don’t listen to their instinct. We worry about hurting someone’s feelings and will push ourselves right into the fearful situation that our instinct is warning us about. With other animals, the first feeling they get, the immediately run. It’s quite interesting that we’ll run right into the situation our instinct is warning us about. Our instinct is what nature gave us to protect our lives so it’s important that we listen to it and learn how to use it.
I thoroughly enjoy you openly sharing b/c it sheds light on our experiences ie our exchanges via the apps.
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Thank goodness, you did not become a statistic. Hope yyou learned a serious lesson from this. Stay safe, stay healthy, and by all means, stay alive, and beautiful.
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You are so beautiful and your voice is so sultry. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I guess it was a lesson learned, believe me it could have ended much worse. Always trust your gut🙏🌟💫
Sultry? Haha thank you!
I'm so sorry this happened to you and that the commenters have also let you down. A similar situation happened to me in the 90s. I can't speak to how you felt but I would advise you not to be either embarrassed or ashamed because somebody else behaved shameful and embarrassing. When my incident occurred all I was thinking was how to diffuse this situation and get myself safe. I lied like crazy to this a-hole to get him out of my apartment and thankfully it worked. Sending you online hugs.
Thank you for sharing that 🙏
It was so nice hearing your thoughts. I am the same way where I don't like giving up my power. That takes trust and safety for me to willingly give that up. Nice to know I am not the only one.
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Admirable of you to be this revealing about yourself and this experience. It reminds us to try and respect the instinct the self-preservation. And for anyone who may be Dom top, hopefully some compassion for what you went through and that they won't assume everyone is looking for what they have to offer.
You are a man an intelligent and strong one (by looking at you) and you put yourself in a questionable situation. I appreciate that you mentioned, correctly, that a woman would be more vulnerable in a similar situation. I hope that other folks who listen to your story will learn from it.
That was a horrible situation but I’m glad that you’re ok. That’s the reason why I stopped using it years ago. Probably best to meet someone on a night out where you just click immediately.
I think your final insight is the closest to the truth: whatever he had going on, it was his issue, not yours. You don't have to participate. If you're dealing with a friend on the phone or texting or at work, you can walk away, not engage, not answer a text. But in your own home, you have to deal with it immediately; you can't ignore it. I think you did a good job defusing and moving things along. I get an idea the embarrassment might come from: your friend's story. She had the wisdom to (a) set up a first meeting outside the home and (b) insist on driving herself there instead of accepting a ride. You know that you can still have your grindr experiences, not be a nun, but be like your friend and be safer about it. I know I regret years later the chances I took; nothing bad ever happened, but they were risks that in hindsight weren't worth it.
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You are very thoughtful and smart. Great analysis of an individual's pathology. And a person who is very, very off.
Thank you David.
Your intuition likely saved you from a violent event. His reaction asking if you felt unsafe and being disappointed confirms your intuition sensing danger. That guy was probably a sociopath and you were very lucky because it could have gone very bad.
Yes I was thinking the same. And assuming he was(although it's hard to say just from that for sure) people on the pathological narcissism spectrum (narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths) often elicit what called "the uncanny valley" response in people. They have the same reaction to narcissists as they do to very human-like androids. People aren't sure why they feel that way but something just feels "off" . They are sensing that the narcissist is a fraud and not a real human being at all. Others often cannot articulate what it is they don't like about the narcissist - who usually seems to be the picture of friendliness and sincerity - they just know they don't like it.
Narcissists have a pretty severe empathy deficit. Empathy is the understanding of the reality of other people's emotions and the ability to understand how these emotions impact other people, how they make others feel. Narcissists can not read understand or interpret the emotional states of other people accurately. Narcissists are studying your reactions, since they lack empathy they have no other way to gauge what any of the things that you're saying or doing mean. Narcissists generally cannot read or interpret these reactions very well at all and due to the level of projection that they're engaging in they appear to only interpret things through the lens of what they themselves are thinking and feeling anyway without consideration for any other Factor at all. They watch reactions and they interpret these through their own emotional and self-referential lenses and they tend to believe that they are far more accurate regarding this than they really are. It is common for them to assume the other person is lying about or doesn't know their own feelings and motivations than it is for them to even consider the possibility that they themselves could be wrong. Their interpretation of things is based on projection of their own emotions, fears and insecurities. There is no one who fears weakness and helplessness more than an abuser. Very little if anything else their perspective lens is entirely self-referential entirely.
How they become versed in manipulation is practice and mimicry. The type of manipulation narcissists engage in most often is the very basic emotional manipulation that even little kids know how to engage. You don't need to understand how something works to do it. People prove that every day when they drive cars. Narcissists don't need to understand people's emotions to use them. Children can be very manipulative in the same kinds of ways and they don't understand how it works either with a child's limited experience and understanding of things. Narcissists brains have attempted to compensate for these deficits in ways that mimic normal functioning as much as possible, such as observing reactions in place of empathy. They engage in mimicry and imitation, often without ever understanding why they are doing the things that they're doing because their only real goal is to give the right response and keep up the charade that they're not having the enormous amount of difficulty and that they're the same as everybody else. They do what they have seen other people do in similar situations or what they have learned works. This is why their responses are often offbeat or inappropriate. They don't appear able to truly read and understand emotional states to innately respond the way that people with empathy do so. As a result of that they often miss the Mark or get it wrong.
Think about how you process things when you're talking to somebody just in a regular conversation. Odds are you're not spending all of your time frantically trying to read their expressions and interpret their body language to look for cues or racking your brain for what the right response is to whatever they're saying so that you can seem like you understand and you're just like everybody else. You're just talking and because you have empathy all of that is happening automatically for you and transmitting information to your brain without you even realizing it. You are able to rely on your perceptions in this area to the point that you don't even need to pay any conscious attention to them, that's just happening for you automatically. For people who don't have empathy this does not happen. They have to often consciously and intentionally attempt to translate what they're hearing and seeing into some kind of understanding of what's being said and how the other person feels.
Narcissists struggle enormously with mentalization, which is the understanding of the mental states of the self and other people. A process that helps us understand the motivations behind the behavior of ourselves and others. We can use the skill of mentalization plus our empathy to try to understand ours or other's behavior and if we ask them what's wrong and they decide to tell you you can use the skill of mentalization and your empathy to have that conversation and really be able to understand what they're telling you and where they're coming from. Narcissists cannot do these things. They Instead try to consciously translate what they're seeing and hearing and are projecting onto and reading into these things as well, which means that not only are they attempting to translate and interpret something that they really have no understanding of it all in the first place, they are superimposing their own fears traits feelings insecurities and whatever ever else on top of that and because their perspective is almost entirely self-referential they assume by default that everything is about them.
Lack of empathy is not caused by a lack of emotions as narcissist have emotions. Psychopaths not so much, but most narcissists do have their own emotions. But having emotions does not equate to understanding emotions. Narcissists generally don't understand or connect with their own emotions either. Asking them questions about their emotions or attempting to try to talk about these things often just goes nowhere. Narcissists often struggle with even admitting to feeling emotions as well, especially those that are perceived to be negative like anger. There is every possibility that many narcissists are not really able to recognize connect with or even name their own emotions, This is very much like a child and narcissists do have arrested emotional development so it makes sense. Even those who may seem able to superficially discuss or engage with their own emotions often flounder when it comes to any real discussion about them.
They can engage in emotional manipulation without understanding or even recognizing the underlying emotions or other mechanics involved. It's similar to when you use a remote control. They've learned which buttons to push based on observation and experience, this allows them to achieve desired outcomes without any real emotional Insight or understanding at all. They're following a learned pattern. Often they can't seem to make any significant adaptations to their manipulative structure or pattern based on the situation or people involved with remarkably few variations. They're unable to read people and their reactions to adapt. They're acting according to learn behaviors and patterns not any innate ability to read and interpret other people or to even understand the reality of the situation or other people or themselves.
Studies that consistently demonstrate the same thing over and over again people with high levels of narcissism cannot read or interpret the emotions facial expressions or body language of other people accurately and this leads to massive miss interpretations and misunderstandings on their part. This is made worse by the fact that many narcissists not only engage in projection along with this, but they mistake projection for empathy believing themselves to be seeing and feeling the emotions of other people, when in fact these things belong to them and are just reflections of their own emotions, fears, traits and insecurities. Because they are sure that they are feeling other people's feelings they cannot be convinced that they're wrong. They can feel it they're therefore it's true because narcissists opperate off of feelings and not facts.
Not only are narcissistic people unreliable narrators in reading others, their perception is clouded and self-referential and their motives are self-serving and often hidden. They do not see reality, they do not see you, they cannot read you and this person's whole goal is to create and uphold their own narrative. They are acting out a movie in their heads and they are reading this script from that movie not you, they are in a different reality than you.They interpret your actions and reactions according to that, not according to actuality. Everything they do and say is toward that end, whether intentionally or otherwise, whether it hurts other people or not. It's not to get along better or improve relationships or to offer honest feedback in order to help you. It's not to resolve anything or to understand things better. It is for that one reason and that reason only. Their perception of you, themselves, just basic reality is totally compromised and should essentially be completely ignored. You can't take what they say about you seriously and allow it to get into your head. You will be swallowed up in their single-minded pursuit of identity and importance. Their manipulation are just targeting other people's ego's need for validation and to feel special, which every person is vulnerable to that.
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The best and most effective way is to meet at a neutral place and then see if there is any chemistry to pursue further.
@@kmarie7051You have highlighted the complexity and the intricacies of the human brain.
My sentiments exactly!
Under the influence of drugs, people are dangerous. You're lucky to be OK.
You have nothing to feel embarrassed about. I am proud of you because of the simple fact, you acknowledge that you made a huge mistake by letting a total stranger in your house by trusting him and sadly to say a lot of people repeat the same mistake over and over again putting themselves.In bad situation .By you making this video I’m quite sure you are helping a lot of people to maybe think twice before allowing a total stranger into their home . Because as gay men I think we forget the possible danger that we could come across simply because it’s a gay dating app, not realizing that there are a lot of bad actors with bad intentions. So thank you for bringing up this awareness.
Don't feel ashamed, you followed your instinct and managed to keep yourself safe. There are some dodgy people out there. Its best to get some idea of expectation before meeting up even with meeting people from an app.
Allow someone to talk for 5 minutes and they will tell you exactly who they are. And when they do, believe them! The world is full of sociopaths and you encountered one. I'm glad it didn't escalate when you stood up to him. Thank-you for sharing your experience and calling him out in this video.
🙏🙏🙏
He wasn't a sociopath, he was a horny dude coming over to get what he was told he would get, only to meet a flake. I'd have been pissed off too.
Lmao, he’s the psychopath??
I would’ve thought the psychopath was the one who thought that having manners, and asking a guest if they want a drink is an indication they want to vandalize your bathroom! Dear lord, what planet are you ppl on?
Who didn’t get what they want and is now attempting to psychoanalyze here?
A generation that’s too afraid to walk out the front door without a helmet should not be running around and calling ppl too aggressive
There’s a difference between FEELING threatened vs BEING threatened
@@SeeburgMusicROFL THANK YOU!!
This guy is out here accusing ppl of being a psychopath because they dare come over to his place and forgot to worship him.
Idk, maybe hooking up with a stranger on grinder isn’t his thing. But why blame the stranger??
Maybe, just maybe, it would’ve been nice to actually ask someone if they want a drink?? Instead of making a half hour attempt at psychoanalysis - and then accusing the other person of attempting psychoanalysis 🤦🏻♂️
I can 100% have sympathy for someone who is shy, or uncomfortable, but I would give this dude a reason to be uncomfortable for running around and telling ppl I was going to vandalize his bathroom 🙇🏻♂️ Ppl have serious problems that need to be addressed, and need to figure out something better than TH-cam, to address them
Your videos are always so...interesting, Keven. 🙈 A normal Grindr user haha. With experience you'll get better at vetting online hook ups so they are more fulfilling for you 👍🏼. I'm glad you feel like sharing with us. 🏳🌈 Looking forward to the next hook up story time. ✅ Yeah, this was sorta weird for both of you.
You seem like a very normal young man, this was a lessoned learned..
If someone makes you feel uncomfortable, it's a red flag. Don't overthink or overanalyze your feelings at the time you have them. You have every right to end and exit the social interaction based on your feelings of discomfort (regardless of the immediacy of the timing when you experience that discomfort).
I completely agree. It really is that simple.
@@KevenTalksyeah sure, but instead of expecting him and the world around you to ‘pick up a hint’ and leave, maybe you should speak up?
At least as much as you are here?? Seriously
You sound way too sensitive and if you need this much security, maybe you shouldn’t be having randoms over. Think about this.
@@basedmoho2062 I told him I didn't feel comfortable, stopped immediately, and then proceeded to have a conversation with him.
This was my retelling of that event & making sense of it.
@@basedmoho2062 I disagree. People do the best they can do based on their experience. He is clearly sensitive, nothing wrong with that. It isn't about what he could do, it is about what he will learn how to do as time goes on. I personally have handled things totally different than I did a decade ago. One isn't better than the other. I just have a different level of experience under my belt.
@@MrjustinR I mean, why is he more deserving of this magnanimous compassion of yours, than the person he invited over, and eviserated on TH-cam?
It appears your mercy is rather Inconsistent & biased
Hook-up culture can be 100% hit or miss. The risks are super high. Sometimes it works out ok. Sometimes it's a waste of time, or worse.
NEVER have strangers in your home. Sex is fun. But know who they are. And what you both like. Then you can have fun. BE VERY CAREFUL!
I'd rather host than be in someone else's home where they could have a dungeon I dont know about.
its better to usually just hire someone. money helps skip past through the bs and flakes
@@Uranianth rent boys can mug you
@@brijmsn they usually couldnt because it would ruin their reputation
@@UranianthGood point! … If in doubt, hire.
You get that power move socially too from people who have dominant personalities and see others as submissive, even non-sexually. If you don’t go along with it, they assume it's some kind of fault in you and try to impose their ‘psychoanalysis' on you. It's their way of staying 'in control' when they've been rejected. 😂
It's a pretty gross quality. What's interesting is they aren't smart enough to realize you pick up on it, so then you have to play along. I played dumb long enough to get him out.
Dude, your first mistake is to think that inviting anyone who is a totally unknown stranger into your personal space may be safe in our 21st-century American society. First, meet up in a public space among other people, like a restaurant. There, you can safely feel the other person's energy and decide if you're interested in more. Stay safe and be happy!
You nailed it. We are all adults and we ALL have to act like responsible adults period.
the sex urge don't allow so much cautions haha
@@johnconstable8512 Antonio, here. Horniness gets blamed all the time. Might as well say, "The Devil made me do it!" Stay safe by being wise and responsible for yourself, everybody!
@@littleceaser7268 In life, we all can pick up some energy from other people. In the end, we are all adults and have to decide what is in our best interest period. No regrets.
📌 Let me sum it up in one word: you’ve experienced a true NARCISSIST , that’s exactly how they act.
😔🙇🏻♂😔🙇🏻♂
I really enjoyed this story. You were getting red flags from your gut instinct trying to look out for you. Always trust your gut. That was also smart how you thought some of these situations out, in the moment, with what reaction was best to keep this guy calm. Always remember too that if you start to feel like things could be escalating or say the guy stayed in the bathroom for a long time where he might’ve been about to pull something on you, you can always walk out of your place. You can yell in that you’ll be at the front door when he’s finished. Yes, it leaves your belongings in jeopardy, but they can always be replaced while your life can’t. People like that are also less likely to do something in public.
PS. The gay serial killer in Canada was killing gay men he met in apps by “dominating” them and handcuffing them to the bed. Once he had them handcuffed, he’d strangle them and there was nothing they could do. The sick bastard would then take a photo modeling with each “trophy” he had killed, just like humans do with deer. You 100% made the best decision with stopping him in his tracks as soon as he started that “domineering” talk.
lean in, you're not alone. your vulnerability gives others feeling the same way, strength.
🙏🙏🙏
Thankyou for sharing your experience. I'm glad that it ended up OK for you. Of all the dating apps, THAT one in particular has been the most challenging for me. I've been called a 'time waster' for asking how some-one's day was. I've been blocked after asking how long it will take them to get to my place. I've been on the end of conversations where guys insist that they want to meet - but won't commit to a time or place. I've asked completely 'normal' questions and got responses in a tone like it was a complete inconvenience to answer. I don't use it any more. I don't need to be treated that way. There are other apps.
I hear you. On these apps, there's a lot of projection of people's own traumas and past grievances. Very unfortunate. It's even palpable in this comments section!
@@KevenTalks I hear YOU! 😁 I did note an interesting amount of unsolicited psychoanalysis in the comments! 😉
@@richardg8092 It's shocking to me.
Suddenly I understand what women always talk about with not being believed, being "overdramatic," etc...
You are so good looking and so stable, you will find your love.
Always go with your instincts. Good job.
🙏
It is always a bummer when you meet someone off a social app and you are 100% not compatible! 😂
lol totally, especially if they give you a creepy vibe 🫠
Glad you're safe Keven.
I’m really glad I watched this to the end. You give a very complete set of thoughts. And I’ve met people on Grindr who have turned out to be absolute best friends, some with a sex aspect and others somewhat unexpectedly without sex but still a friend totally true. And I’m talking about people I’ve had to my house or hotel or rented apartment, whatever. I’ve had certainly more good experiences than bad. And the few bad ended up more along the lines of “I’m sorry, i think you should leave.” I did have one pre-Grindr experience where I hooked up with someone in a restaurant and then he wanted to come back to my hotel. Something just didn’t feel right but I took a cab with him back to the hotel. I’m not quite sure how I slipped out of it, but I think I said something like, just hang on a minute I need to check on something as we were getting out of the cab. I went straight to my room. He didn’t know what room I was in and probably couldn’t have gotten there without a key anyway. Sometimes you just have to work on instinct in such cases.
Thank your for sharing your experience.
This guy putting it on you as you're the one with a problem, is an example of gas lighting. It's a technique narcissists use in not taking any responsibility in a situation. Narcissist have a difficult time with empathy, meaning they have none.
A casual hook up is an example of someone USING someone else to get the sexual satisfaction one is physically craving. I believe it's important to feel a connection with someone before having sex with them. This angle of approach comes after many years of experience using people for sexual gratification.
This is scary. Please be careful. I will not judge you or your situation, but I do worry about you. I will say this your instincts were warning you, You have to trust them. You felt and sensed something was not right. When you were telling the story, it was just scary and creepy. Be honest with yourself and your dates in the future. Please do not invite people you do not know to your house. Something was just not right. You do not know what was going to happen and he lingered around for too long also. I am thankful you are here able to share.
🙏
Now this is my type of video 🎉😂
I had a very similar situation to this, albeit the person did show more warmth than the person you're describing. I also liked him quite a bit, and felt bad I didn't communicate my boundaries as well as I could have, so he took it as me being completely turned off by him which wasn't necessarily the truth. 😅 But boy do I feel this story and for you, you have no clue. ❤ We also didn't discuss stuff in the way you did, we just both sort of read in between the lines of our behavior and awkwardness, but didn't pressure each other for final answers. I also get the projection thing you were talking about. I could also sense this guy projecting a lot of his own stuff and trauma onto me, as a person that used to also do that to others, I picked up on it.
The major issue here is you allowed a complete stranger into your home based on a brief text conversation. But given this fact, you were right to try and diffuse before it escalated into something more dangerous. PLEASE never put your safety at risk like that again.❤
Its not exactly an uncommon thing for people to do though. There were hookup sites before apps were a thing, and cruising before that.
I had scary experiences with guys on that app too. It’s so weird to have anyone come to your apartment and you’ve never met… don’t know what he’s capable of, or his record or anything. I still have nightmares about one guy who came over and wouldn’t leave one dark winter night back in 2020 😬 He was totally different from his profile and I was truly scared.
Dude I feel for you, man the world is complicated and so are many people! Glad nothing extreme happened. I don't know if since you guys are younger the protocols of communication with Apps have somewhat enhanced the inadequacy in many, although selfish and self absorbed individuals have always existed.
I do think it's much harder to assess things like EQ via apps.
@@KevenTalks Keven I wonder if you would of just flat out said to him "man what is this fuck by numbers?" and if you(him)can't let it happen organically then just leave. Sorry Keven, don't mean to be a Day after Quarterback(sorry for the butch reference, Lol!).
The downside of random hook up culture is that you have a guy on the couch who you don’t know anything about except what he tells and shows you. It sounds like you handled this graciously and are willing to assess what happened and the role you played in it.
You are a great raconteur Keven! ❤
🙏
Watching your video is like re living an experience I had recently. Your whole experience is like what happened to me. He too asked to go to the toilet and was there for about 10 minutes. I also heard him try to make a phone call which extra freaked me out.
That is so crazy!
I would have handled this situation exactly as you did, right or wrong.
People are so different. It is possible that in talking with you that he was trying to build trust. Talking to somebody and asking how they are feeling is something some people like. IT could have been a general interest in trying to relate. Still, you have to trust your guilt.
100% - talking is fine. But the things he said coupled with the vibe I was feeling - didn't feel like genuine energy at all.
@@KevenTalks I hear you and don't get me wrong, you have to trust your gut. I will say after watching a bunch of your stuff, I thought it was interesting. I def had a different view, for example on the guy that had the dentist appointment. At first, I felt he was pulling your leg, but he wasn't. I don't see a reason to be so hard about it. Everybody is different, I guess I am making this comment just to say that sometimes we are hard on each other, and I am not sure if we always have to. I personally find the more open I am, the easier it is to get to know people. I try (and it is tough) to not put too much judgement on these things. Again, Just an opinion. Always trust your gut when in doubt. Enjoyed your videos.
I navigate Grindr by just being direct. If the hookup isn't what I expected or it just feels off, I ask them to leave. Saying you don't think there is much chemistry between you is perfectly valid given only communicated on an app.
Trying to psychoanalyze a stranger is a loosing battle. You just don't know what their intensions and history are.
From your story though it sounds like the guy has issues. I've had guys try to convince me that I agreed to their fetishes when I never would have.
I have a habit of letting people get too much of my time / not standing up for myself firmly (that's part of the shame). At the same time the fear I was feeling made me go into "fight or flight" mode - so I didn't feel I could be 100% candid or direct with him either.
What you mentioned about fetishes is gnarly! People are nuts and may use these opportunities to play mind games.
Right on. At any point we all have the right to say it is not working or to walk away period. Remember not everyone is looking exactly what you are and vice versa. It is okay to say no and be done.
One of the beautiful gifts we have received from nature as gay men is a very good intuitive sense. LISTEN TO YOUR GUT guys! If your gut signals you, pay attention immediately!
Gay men are hardly a great sample of the population to demonstrate overly developed good intuition, and many gay men who have it learned from experience. We all get enough of that after all. No front.
Woah this the first time this has ever happened to you? Thank you for sharing
Don’t use the app and have strangers in ur home. There’s no process to it
Keven, be assertive right back at him from the start as soon as you sense it from them. Have an exit plan like my roommate or brother is going to be home in X number of mins. Got to go! Finally, let a close friend know that you are having someone over as a safety net and to call you if they don't hear from you at a preset time. Take Care.
Self-service😂 is the answer
lol
Agree! … 👍
I think the woman friend you talked to about this was correct that the guy had a power complex and your instincts about him were right.
When you failed to go along with his domineering behavior, his reaction to pseudo-psychoanalyze you was an attempt to retain dominance by trying to convince you that there must be something wrong with you since you did not want to participate in fulfilling his fantasy.
Don't let his bad behavior and mind games make you think that you did anything wrong nor that you have any reason to feel guilt or shame.
Your trying to diffuse the situation rather than possibly anger him was a natural, instinctual reaction in that potentially unsafe situation. Perhaps he would have been OK if, in response to his pseudo-psychoanalysis, you had said that regardless of the reasons, it is clear that we wanted different things for this encounter, so we should just call it a night and part with no hard feelings. Or, perhaps that might have set him off as you feared. Who knows? In the end, your attempts to diffuse the situation worked and he left without incident, and all it cost you was a little extra wasted time feeling uncomfortable and ill at ease.
Don't let the encounter cost you even more wasted time feeling unwarranted shame. If there is any shame in this situation it is not on you, it is on him for his behavior.
Thank you 🙏
@@KevenTalks You are most welcome.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Back in the day I met-up with a guy who seemed so normal, so nice, so friendly. We went out to lunch and within the hour, the whole date was creepy. He was so demanding, so dominant, and it was clear, there weren't going to be any safe words. It was all him. I was medium build, strong and wiry but I knew I couldn't handle him. He was big. (Hence the attraction to begin with). So I excused myself to go and pee and then literally snuck out the side door of the restaurant because I was so scared of him. Watch your back guys and be safe.
Omg! Sounds quite similar.
In an ideal world we could invite anyone over and have a good time but I could never feel comfortable 'hosting' someone I don't know in my own personal space. I cherish my privacy too much and don't trust people until I get to really know them
it is so easy to meet people in "real life." I saw my future life partner in a club. So handsome. When I saw him in front of another club I went up to him "You wouldn't look at me." He replied "I didn't see you." Said I "Would you like a drink." He moved in within 3 weeks (how lesbian, right?) and we had a wonderful life together for 18 years until he passed. I miss him to this day, but I still meet other people in the same fashion. Dating apps are simply creepy
When do you really get to know somebody though? I've known certain people for almost two years and I still dont really know who they are and what they are capable of.
@@brijmsn that's true. I still have to know someone for a while before inviting them back to my place, friends or otherwise
I wish people would stop starting with negative judgements. We start doing risking things the moment we get out of bed in the morning. Keven is right we cannot live in fear of strangers. We simply need to be prepared, if things go south, to keep ourselves as safe as possible. You can meet great people on line and you can meet some real duds. Such is life. One thing I will say is we must listen to our gut feelings...if we sense something off we need to listen just as Keven did. Keven, it is wonderful that you have shared this experience with us.
We take chances all the time, especially when libido and alcohol are involved. I understand viewers' feedback of course, but I don't think it's totally realistic either. "Why would you use Grindr?!"
Either way, I could've "vetted" the guy better.
Honestly he seemed nice enough, and he WAS.
But it felt like a surface niceness if that makes sense.
@@RBB52 makes a lot of sense
Hmmm... what you didn't say was what was on his Grindr profile. I'm a submissive bottom and I love these take charge kind of guys. I seek them out. I love feeling disempowered and existing to serve their sexual desires and needs only. You sound somewhat more versatile, with a preference for pleasing each other. I guess that the dialog on Grindr wasn't clear enough as to what the expectations were? Did you check his "tags"? Did you do a search with your own "tags"? Am I wrong? Was this guy really that creepy? I know that I've never been in a situation like this. Grindr can be great but you've got to know the desires of the other guy. You got lucky, in a way, and you're clearly rattled about it. At least you're safe now. It's a great learning experience. I wish you the best.
He described himself as a "dom top," but beyond that, nothing was remotely unusual or alarming.
I always thought "dom top" just meant a guy who enjoys being in charge in the bedroom (AKA a top, but maybe a bit more verbal or something).
Verbal is fine, taking charge is fine, but there's a limit (for me) - I don't like when sex becomes about 1 person's needs or desire. If I had indicated I specifically wanted that dynamic, it would be different in my IMO.
Am I wrong?
@@KevenTalks Of course you're not wrong. Feelings are neither right nor wrong in a moral sense. Your feelings are your feelings. They are valid. I guess next time, zero in on the "dom" part of top and ask more questions about what he means about being a dom. Also, ask him not to edit his thoughts. This way you can decide if he's right for you or not. For me, I would definitely be attracted to a "dom top." I would even swipe past a guy who says they are only a "top." It tells me they are somewhat versatile. Going forward, maybe there could be something in your profile that more specifically states your preferences? I wonder too if, when you met this guy, you did not vibe on an attractive/chemical level? It's impossible to force being attracted to someone. It's there or it's not. As a thin, weak, submissive bottom, I've got to be very careful. I try to meet guys in public first, usually in the day for coffee, just to be sure. Guys have said that insisting on meeting first isn't submissive. Then again, it's 2am and I've got to protect myself. For me, it's crazy to have sex with a guy you've never met before and the other guy shouldn't be upset about it. Sure, once we meet, and if everything goes well, have your way with me.
Someone that lacks empathy and compassion totally is a narcissist or phycopath. Gotta be careful. They also don't read social cues as well as you and I. They don't even understand their own feelings let alone someone else's.
I'm still unsure whether with a personality type like his, it's better to be absolutely direct or handle like I did.
It seems in retrospect he did have a harder time picking up on cues - yet in the moment, I felt if I was too blunt, he may be reactive. Perhaps that's just my own paranoia - not sure.
This is why i never use apps. What you did Keven, was like having a new car delivered to your house before test driving it...I want to see how shiny the paint is first! Better luck next time.
There’s a reason there’s that phrase “window shopping”
I think your lucky that he didn't hurt you .. he could of been a complete nutter you have to be very careful who you let in to your home if I were you id make sure you never see him again over the years hosting and traveling for hook ups ive had cases where ive stopped the situation because my gut didnt feel the situation was right there are a lot of crazies out there just be careful xx
....I am also pleased that you were safe....
A piece of advice... don't bring strangers in your home unless you've met them outside and know them well.
Exactly. In addition, at any point, we all have the right to say politely it is not working for me, thank you and take care.
@johnm5229 I've heard so many stories over the years... bringing strangers home is very risky. One guy's house was completely thrashed because the other guy couldn't take no for an answer.
@@-az-1236 It is why, it is better to meet at a neutral place and go from there. Never should anyone be in a hurry to bring anyone home or have intimacy. In addition, if someone wants quick meaningless sex, there are bathhouses. The options are there for each person to explore what they feel comfortable with.
@@johnm5229 Yes 💯 true
Or
Maybe don’t bring a stranger into your house if you are THIS sensitive and incapable of being assertive enough to ask them to leave besides ‘taking a hint’
This guy was expecting his guest to vandalize his bathroom!! Did you see any indication of this poor guy behaving in a way that would justify such paranoia?!
God forbid he was offered a drink! I’m in shock by this generation
I totally understand your reactions. I HATE power games. It for me is a BIG turnoff as it was/is for you. It's unfortunate that your reaction is shame. You have no reason to feel that way. The guys was creepy and domineering; it's definitely NOT you! The conversation you reported was totally off and not appropriate for the circumstance. We learn from our experiences so learn, remember and if you encounter someone else like this you'll see the red flags and end the session and thrown them out! 🙂
🙏
Being vulnerable is something that makes us all feel uncomfortable, and in the right situation, it can be the beginning of becoming good friends if there is not attraction on both sides, or it can allow for mind blowing incredible sex. Sometimes it can happen instantly with the right person, other times, a good horizontal friend can turn into something that can last for several years and gets better as the 2 people trust each other more.
The jerk-wad you are discussing here tried to intimidate you and force you to do something that you were not comfortable with doing. You always have the right to change your mind, and tell the other person, NO! This isn't going to work, or tell the other person that he needs to leave, or leaving his place if you sense something is off, unsafe, or of you get bad vibes. I learned a long time ago that I should trust my instincts, they are almost always correct. You did great! Don't take BS from anyone.
I also wanted to comment on the issue you mentioned about shame, there's no reason why anyone should feel shame for being who they are. God does not create heterosexuals full-time. I know I was created as a gay man. Anyone else who wants to argue about that can walk in my shoes for a while, or see and be what I experienced.
There were several people who tried to impose and put guilt and shame on me when I was younger. At some point later on in my life, I saw many of these same people who who they really are. Many of them are nothing but hypocrites, and preach one thing but practice something entirely different. They tried to preach their values, but often times their value system is based on trying to focus on someone else, or point the finger at someone else as a diversionary tactic, because they don't want others to notice who they really are. Many times they people like that don't want to look at themselves. I am very thankful and relieved that I didn't end up being like them.
That's another thing, stay away from organized religion, the majority of OR is complete and total BS. It took me a long time to have clarity and to be comfortable in my own shoes, but it was worth it. I hope for the best for you as you continue in life.
Well said!
First, I should say I am in my early 50s so most of my dating and hooking up was very analog. Meet at bars, parties, going about your day, etc. and after some conversation you may want to go to one of your places if there’s a spark or desire to date. I’ve done tons of online dating where you eventually meet in person at a bar or for coffee. But I’ve not made the recent transition to Grindr where strangers show up at your door for sex. I am so uncomfortable with that and can’t ever imagine wanting to open my front door to a stranger and just start having sex. Now I know I’m older and that this is how younger guys meet now but I just think its ruining whatever joy or thrill there is when getting to know someone, even if its an hour or two, before the pressure of having to immediately start having sex. In addition to the emotional side, it’s also just risky cause you never know if you’re going to get a psycho. In your case, thank god he didn’t turn out to be violent. I just think he was a dominant alpha who likes to talk out the role after he’s gotten a buzz with some drinks. Him asking for a drink wasn’t unusual in my eyes cause lots of folks turn to a drink when they get home, visit a friend, have sex, etc. You weren’t compatible in terms of your flirting or sexual chemistry, and I think that’s all it was at the end of the day.
It doesn't matter if you've known someone five minutes or five years.
I had someone i was hanging out with socially for almost two years decide one night that we were going to be more than friends. Instead of listening to my intuition and leaving, I spent several hours trying to diffuse the situation assuming he'd just had to much to drink and needed to sober up. That evening ended with sexual assault.
Thank you for sharing this. I'm sorry you went through that experience.
I was like you once then life showed me something only works if their mutual communication and respect.
Seems like he wanted to be serviced and order the other guy around and be verbal. He realized that’s not your vibe and he didn’t like that. Some people are into that sub dom thing. You are very analytical and that’s fine. He needed alcohol asap in order for the hookup. You are in touch with yourself. I don’t think it was a terrible experience.
I'm sorry you had to go through this and most of all, I'm glad you were OK.
Unfortunately I think this is more common than you might think. Many men have an immature understanding of reciprocity in human relationships, coupled with an intensely conditioned fear of vulnerability. They'll marshal every intellectual and emotional resource so as not to appear "weak." I also think patriarchal, heteronormative attitudes have trained many men to view potential sexual partners as merely conquests or objects to be dominated. Just like women are objectified as objects of power and control for some heterosexual men, I think the same thing happens in the context of sexual connections between some men. I've actually seen the inverse happen with some closeted gay men who are married to women - they make themselves into extremely submissive objects for the men they hook up with to "dominate" and "control." The opposite of the idea of wanting to possess the other.
I'm reminded of a song from the musical Falsettos, where the wife of a closeted gay man who divorced her and came out is remarking on the damage men can do. She sings,: "I'm tired of all the happy men who rule the world/happy, frightened men who rule the world/they grow, of that I'm sure/they grow, but don't mature/I'd like a chance to hide in that world/I'm listening to these men who aren't quite men yet, but not boys make noise/they roar and throw their knives/their toys are people's lives/they fight too hard and play too rough/they sometimes love but not enough/my heart will beat at will, but still/it's crazy how they're acting/it's stupid, my response/it's silly how I love them, so dumb how I anticipate their wants/but as long as they amuse me, that alone is what's required/I'll explore what I'm feeling/ except what I'm feeling is tired, so tired/so tired of all these happy men who rule the world/happy, frightened men who rule the world ... "
I think you may never know why this person did what they did. As upsetting as I'm certain it was, and beyond all the messages you are receiving about how you should or should not have done various things, I hope you'll take this opportunity to reflect on what you do want out of these kinds of connections. I won't judge you for bringing someone to your house, as that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do if you're in the mood for sexual connection. There's no inherent shame in that, despite what the Monday morning "quarterbacks" on here are telling you. But since you have a friend you can talk with about this stuff, have you considered letting your friend know when you've invited someone to your house? Not going into details, just a heads-up so that - for example - if things start to go south, you can give your friend the heads-up that you're feeling unsafe. It may sound far fetched, but I now wish I'd had that kind of "buddy system" in my 20s. I went out quite a bit and there were a lot of visits to houses of strangers I'd just met. Nothing ever happened, but I was in a couple very dicey situations very early on when I was far too young to defend myself.
Lastly, I'm not sure if this is helpful - but I think you are in Miami? I've had an overwhelmingly negative impression of the gay dating and hookup scene there, especially from friends who live there. Gay friends have described some extraordinarily hurtful and unhealthy experiences they've had while navigating sex and dating. Some actually shocked me with how callous and cruel the people were. I'm not sure if you are tied to Miami but the men in other cities seem to all be of better quality in other places. I know that doesn't help you now, but if you are considering a move, I think just about every other major US city has nicer and kinder gay men. I know some wonderful gay men in the Miami/FLL area, but I (and they) get the impression that their kind and empathic natures put them in a minority there.
Best wishes to you, and thanks for sharing this very personal experience.
Thank you for your kind words & thoughtful comment Christopher 🙏
Sounds like he may have had some psychopathic traits. There's some videos on TH-cam about some of them. Not everyone with these traits are the evil people in films who may harm you but I'm glad you got out of the situation. They can have insincere charm, be manipulative and don't feel empathy or emotion like we do. It sounds so creepy, what you went through. Trust your instincts!
Similar thing happened to me with a guy in a group of friends that we both have in common who’d I’d met once before. We were all out and he asked if I was gonna buy him a drink then told me he was staying at mine as he lived too far away. I thought it’d be ok as my other friends know him. He acted just like this and when I went to the toilet he left without telling me.
This guy talking about the pet store was basically saying he’s the pet who’s been brought back home and now the buyer regrets it and he’s annoyed about that
People are so rude! Damn.
I think a lot of people just avoid communication because they either don't know how to or are cowardly.
@@KevenTalks I know! Especially on Grindr, you can never have a conversation, it makes me think all gay guys are uneducated even though I know they’re not!
This kind of situation is exactly the reason why I always meet for the first time in a busy neutral space for a coffee, to just get a gut reaction if this person is a good egg (or not). Then either one of you can invite the other to your house.
I wish I’d been able to have the presence of mind that you had when I met a stunning guy through an app. After mutually enjoyable foreplay, we agreed to have intercourse. He was not very gentle entering me, but I let him continue. This couldn’t be correctly described as rape because I gave consent and never withdrew that consent. But the sex was rough. In our talks, he never suggested that this was his style. And there were days of pain.
I should have been assertive, but I know that I let him do this because I felt that he was gorgeous, way, way out of my league. That can be an unfortunate dynamic that sadly happens a lot.
Maybe its time for a new app-GRINDR sucks!
I never see anyone on Gridnr worth contacting. In my area they all come across as desperate and trashy
I agree and the other one 'sniffes' is even worse... people can tell exactly where you are on a map. How creepy is that? I wish there was an app where you could choose who looks at your profile and pics and if you like them, they are allowed to message you. I get some really strange, awful messages that I wish I could unsee on grindr...
@@ivanrodriguez268 That's called Tinder haha ;)
I had couple of times hosting & the weirdos inside your house, then it feels scary.
In a dating scenario, both parties usually understand they are each taking the time to get to know the other person before going deep into physical intimacy. That leads to well informed decisions to proceed or abort before you get into a wasteful or vulnerable situation.
In a hookup scenario, both parties generally realize they are bypassing the prudent discovery process of a dating scenario, which means you're basically taking a mostly blind shortcut to get directly to sex. That's inherently a very hit or miss outcome. The odds of finding a good chemistry connection, when you take a random shortcut approach, are not very favorable. It's unrealistic to think you're gonna have mostly good results and exciting experiences using a methodology of not being fully informed in advance of the situation that you're getting yourself into.
It's really a delusional fantasy that the hookup culture is all fun and happy games. The reality is, you might have an impressive hookup experience 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time, the hookup experience falls in the range between mundane and failure.
In acting on the urge for instant gratification, it's important to realize that hookups are not like ordering custom pizza delivery. Anyone who claims it's that easy and successful, is peddling bullshit. More often than not, what shows up at the door, bears no resemblance to the pizza you thought you ordered. If you want to keep participating in hookup culture, you have to be prepared to firmly abort the hookup the moment it doesn't reasonably match what you were expecting it to be. Nobody can be compelled to do anything they don't want to do. "NO" means "NO". Period. If you don't stand firm, you're not only compromising your standards, you're also becoming an enabler for the fakes, flakes, and predators that infest hookup culture. Anyone who can't cope with rejection, is not your problem. There's only one healthy reaction to rejection: accepting it graciously and moving on promptly. Because why would you want to be with anyone who can't reciprocate wanting to be with you? If you get rejected, you should be immediately turned off by the thought of being with the person who rejected you. Your ego should not be so easily bruised. You might be a 7 on a good day, and a guy who is a solid 8 might reject you, but somewhere out there, another guy who is a solid 10 might see other qualities in you that makes you also a solid 10 in their eyes. Gay guys have very, very different tastes and preferences about the things that turn them on. There are super hot hung twinks who are repulsed by their own peers, but they think 'Daddies' are the hottest things on the planet. There really isn't a universal standard operating in both the hookup culture and the dating culture. Gay dudes are very much all over the map in terms of what they are attracted to. So, don't take the hookup scene seriously. It's very much a random series of events with very unpredictable outcomes. It is very definitely not a reliable, consistent, cookie cutter pattern of standardized behavior.
Is it possible that this man just had some degree of Autistic Spectrum Disorder? This came to my mind when you mentioned that he seemed to lack empathy.
A few other people mentioned this in the comments. Perhaps.
But wouldn't an autistic person ask questions to find understanding, instead of making presumptuous assumptions? ("You're like the kid who gets a pet they don't want") 🤷🏻♂️
You are simply a nice guy, and this guy was a mess.
May I suggest that you are too nice? We can never fully understand what's going on in another person's mind; or what another's intention is... You extricated yourself mentally and nudged the guy to leave your place. That I'm sure is the best result.
True. Best possible scenario other than it not happening at all.
When I was younger I was in a guys house and my instincts told me that something wasn't right (not sure what). But I excused myself, and immediately left the house. But I always remember being told "When entering an unfamiliar space, apart from the door you came through, always secretly scan that space for a way out, whatever/wherever it may be".
On another occasion many, many years ago, in a more public place. I became aware of a guy in my presence hovering around. Many years later I found out by watching the news that the same guy from years before, was actually Stephen Port!.
Omg!
When he was asking you about a pet you didn't want, that's when I would invite him to leave, telling him I wanted some physical fun, not a Freud session. Have a great night, goodbye.
But then again, nobody would talk to me on Grindr so I guess at least you'll get people to talk to you and meet you? So you're lucky!
lol I agree that the pet analogy was bizarre.
No one pointed this out in the comments, but it's also peculiar that his 2 analogies (gift-giving and getting a pet) revolved around receiving a present, which implies that's how he views himself. That speaks volumes, no?
@@KevenTalksYes!
I am not experienced in this area, but it seems to me that Grindr is the new dark alley....its the new batthouse. Of course, you're going to meet up with seedy danger.
Usually you exercise good judgment with hooking up (by not inviting someone to your place) unless you've been talking with someone for a few days. We all have lapses though. My biggest worry since I travel a lot is inviting someone to my hotel room and being robbed. It's just too crazy out there and you have to use a lot of precautions meeting at a neutral place first. Have you ever just gone to Hotel Gaythering for a hookup instead?
Seems like his ego was hurt because you didn’t want to play his dominant/sub game, these people can’t process they did something wrong or that there’s something wrong with them in any way, so they try to manipulate the situation to save their ego from rejection.
I don’t know the dynamics for straight relationships, but at least for the so called “dominant” gay guys, they tend to be very influenced by what they see in porn, which is crazy and completely unrealistic. I think you handled that great, you’re very analytical and know when not to put yourself in more danger than necessary.
At the end the day, we don’t know how he would’ve reacted if you just baldly told him to leave, the chances of getting a more violent reaction from him could’ve increased, better to de escalate and slowly reject 😅
You bring up a great point about a lot of these guys having delusional fantasies from watching porn. It's fine if that's what you're into - as long as the other party is seeking that dynamic, too.
I don't know how I would have handled this truthfully. I think you handled it well because obviously his dominating personality was a turn off. With guys like that in the past, for me, I usually call them on their bullshit and end up turning THEM out and making them submissive like this one guy who called himself "Christian Grey" (Lmao). I guess I've been lucky and never ran into a true psycho. This guy you're describing gives me the heebie jeebies I think it was best just to cut it off altogether.
This is a interesting story and has a gay man. I actually recall a date that I had just like this about eight or nine years ago and very similar experience..
He came over to my apartment and it was kind of similar and they made me feel very uncomfortable. He was asking kind of similar questions and things
However, I’m very assertive and I just said I’m gonna go ahead and stop. I’m gonna ask you to leave and I’m sorry, but this isn’t gonna work for me and I appreciate you leave my apartment now. .
He was upset, but he was OK and he just left Thanks for this is good to share with other people so they know that it’s not just them having. ❤❤❤❤
Thank you for sharing that
Seems like you had the misfurtune of meeting a narssicist. Glad you are OK. you seem like a very thoughtful, considerate and emotionally strong person.
i can say i take something from you sharing this experience. I'm usually the person on the other side of this kinds of meetups and what you said about the difference between being submissive to someone and being inferior really resonated with me.
i can say i know myself well enough to know i am respectful and know the difference and don't want to make my partner feel inferior but, after listening to your experience i think i will be even more attentive and communicative to make sure the other person is comfortable for sure and not just going with the flow as it were.
i don't know if when you texted with that a**hole he seemed like he had a sense of humor or not. i can give u a tip from my experience. no sense of humor and espacially no capacity for self humor is a huge red flag.
stay safe and enjoy and never compromise on what you like and what makes you feel good.
Thanks for watching and for the thoughtful comment! 🙏
it's ok honey , you'll get used to them.
Your normal healthy. They Are broken.
I don't know since I wasn't there but entirely possible if he potentially had an alcoholic drink with him and one you gave him he was buzzed or drunk. If that was the case it could explain his behavior. Also for me if that's the case for me I don't try to have a convo with drunk people or rationalize their behavior. On the flip side good for you that you are out there. Dating and especially gay men can be tough.
I realized that myself while making this video - the reminder about the drink made me realize he was potentially already drunk. Thanks for your comment Jon.
He may have been drunk, but most people don't suddenly get creepy and manipulative when they're drunk unless they already have those kinds of tendencies.
This goes from a hook up to a therapy session
Thats why I don't hook up... I would not invite anyone over first... Have that convo at the bar.
Keven you're in a sticky situation. You invited a guy over to your place for sex. You reject him. He tries to figure out why in a discussion with you. You were on the defensive the whole time. Worry about physical safety & fear of std's. You don't like his arrogance. What could you have done differently? Express these feelings to him. You (Keven) have trust issues. You do have trauma. When you first meet a guy, that's the time for brutal honesty. Which is attractive. The purpose of the wine is to loosen up. But I can't help but be shallow & think you didn't find him that sexy in person. Right now he is wondering why you rejected him. Just another flaky Grindr dude? Or what did I do wrong? Was I too confident? Why didn't he start psycho-analyzing me back? My advice is to practice talking frankly to dates. If you ask a guy if he has an STD & he does, he will block you. If he has no std, he will hook up with you. In general. Guys don't communicate clearly. Including you. Including me. Arrogant guys like to be called out on their confidence....but only by a caring lover. I don't believe you can't meet guys in Miami in person. Use this failed hookup as an opportunity to be more open. Good luck.
Yes it would be interesting to hear the other guy's side of things. Always two sides to a story as they say.
You had a Master mindset with you unannounced to you. He was not upfront with you about his expression and what he expected from you. That was very sloppy on his part , having a master personality myself. You just don't spring that on somebody without them having a clue. When an Alpha and a beta blend it can be quite wonderful you simply were not that candidate.
I think you're right.
I had an experience about 20 years ago that thoroughly frightened me. The guy was dominant, and I could tell he was flirting with the idea of overpowering me, and he kept putting both hands around my throat which made it clear to me he was having fantasies about strangulation. I feigned a sudden headache and managed to get away from him. It took me a long time to get over that scare.
I'm sorry you experienced this. It's definitely jolting.
I am sorry that you had this kind of experience. Meeting up with strangers for sex will present many of the problems you addressed. There is never any guarantee of anything. It is like gambling. Whilst there is always the chance you could win, and win big, the chances of being disappointed are much greater. I'd suggest making it clear from the beginning, that you would prefer not having strangers in your home or to enter their home, but to rather get to know each other better. This will include likes and dislikes regarding intimacy. Having sex is one of the most personal things one can ever do, and so one cannot really judge others here, because casual sex is about instant gratification, and not about indepth psychological analysis. 👄
Meet in a neutral place the next time?
SUBMIT!
(Jk) it happens just be careful.
Goodness, that sounds scary--yours and your friend's experience.
Unfortunately, canım, I can't relate to this situation because I'm a top. So, I don't know what it's like being a with a dominant man since I'm the only one playing that role. The only thing I can say, though, is that it takes two to tango. If one person is uncomfortable, it's no longer fair, just like how you have correctly explained. Pardon the personal information, but any time a bottom said to me that something is too much, I always watched the line and did not cross it, not asked him a thousand psychoanalytical questions...
The psychoanalysis stuff I think has more to do with contemporary, North American culture. The fascination with psychology and this stuff has rocketed for the last twenty years, especially the childhood stuff, and so much talk has been going on about that. Fortunately for me, I don't spend much time in the secular world as I am a Spiritualist medium, and I also became Anglican earlier this year, so I am, thankfully, not surrounded by this subject. My constant topics of conversation are to do with astrology, the souls of the dead communicating, past lives, "fal" (our Turkish coffee), and sometimes the Bible and other religious stuff that are spiritual more than bossy. As for the this psychology and wychology stuff, it's not a subject you'll hear about often in those communities, unlike in the secular world of today. So, my guess--which could be wrong--is that he comes from that world, the topic is constantly on his mind, he could be projecting what his own therapist is telling him, and he's probably an alcoholic. That's the best that I can guess, other than that he has plenty of issues, but he wants to make you seem like the troubled one.
All that I can say is that I am happy that you're safe, canım, and that this didn't result in a phone call to the police. Hopefully, it'll never go that route, and I especially hope that you'll never meet men like that again.
Thanks for sharing.
Also... The dead inside look... No Bueno