I also saw a shoot interview where Holly claimed that WWF set Bart Gunn up to fail against Butterbean because they were pissed off at him for knocking out Dr Death.
+Kael2450 Well, he wasn't the most polished physique around but he was pretty much Dr. Death with boxing experience. He hit like a mack truck in his prime and it practically took a truck to knock him down.
It is further evidence that the WWE was pissed at Bart Gunn for winning the thing. Most of the guys he knocked out ended up having good if not great careers after the Brawl 4 All. Godfather wasn't the Godfather at the time of Brawl 4 All, but soon got the gimmick and got over. Bob Holly became Hardcore Holly and got over pretty well, Steve Blackman didn't lose in but was injured in Brawl 4 All but had a good run as Hardcore Champion with Shane McMahon and Bradshaw became one half of the APA and then WWE Champion. Bart Gunn got the holy hell knocked out of him at WrestleMania XV and I hardly remember seeing him again.
The Godfather was definitely the Godfather at that point. He even offered his hoes to an opponent if they chose to lose by default. Pimpin' aint easy. And Steve Blackman and Bob Holly never really had good careers in the WWE. They never made it past curtain jerker to maybe mid card status.
"Bart Gunn got the holy hell knocked out of him at WrestleMania XV and I hardly remember seeing him again." That's because JR shit canned him either that night or a few days later.
That myth that McMahon and the WWE had a grudge against Bart Gunn is just that, a myth. Ever hear the old saying 'don't put your eggs in one basket'? Successful wrestling promotions live by that rule, never wrap the promotion around one wrestler, Fritz Von Erich did that in WCCW with his sons, when they fell the promotion fell. Yes, they probably had big plans for Dr. Death, but shit happens, wrestlers come and go, promoters need to be able to adapt or they perish. The Brawl was a legitimate in-house tough man contest but poorly made, the promoters had no idea what to do with it after it was all said and done. And the problem with Bart was that, while he was a perfectly capable wrestler, and the winner of the contest, he had no charisma, Billy was the talker in the Smokin Gunns, and Cornette was the voice of the New Midnight Express, they couldn't really do anything with Bart, and what little they could do was shot down by his humiliating fight with Butterbean. Best just to give him his severense and pretend the Brawl never happened. Side Note: when you think about it, losing to Butterbean wasn't that humiliating. Regardless of Cornettes colorful description of him, Eric Esch was the standing super-heavyweight boxing champion, equally as tough as Dr. Death but with a hundred times more boxing experience and a punch that would knock out you and everyone who looked like you. There weren't many people around who could stand up to Butterbean in his prime.
How can Cornette and the interviewer forget that Steve Blackman was in Brawl for All. Jim mentions that you can't take down someone with boxing gloves but Blackman took down Marc Mero 13 times in 3 minutes. He even outboxed Mero despite the fact that Mero was a golden gloves boxer. According to Bob Holly, Blackman would have won the tournament hands down and even killed ButterBean at Mania but he had to pull out due to a busted knee while training
This whole Brawl For All debacle shows how sorry of a “writer” Vince Russo really is. He’s such a creative genius (or so his fans & followers want us to believe) but he couldn’t come up with some kind of gimmick or storyline for Bart after this?He couldn’t repackage him as Triple G or 3-G (Golden Gloves Gunn), make his finishing move a massive KO punch (it worked for Big Show and Lacy Evans), give him an IC title run, or even a Hardcore title run to capitalize on his BFA win?? GTFOH! Eric Bischoff and Jim Cornette talked about Russo’s “crash TV” thought process and how it had little or no complete start-to-finish storylines or concepts, and this is a prime example of that ...
corny has a poetic eloquence and cadence at swearing that is breathtaking a true virtuoso i hated him so much when i was a kid in the early 80s and i love him 2x as much now
john smith I don't know his background, but all the boys knew that Haku was a legitimate bad-ass; nobody f---ed with Haku. He's been in some pretty famous, well-documented bar fights you can read about, if you're willing to do a little research.
+john smith I think he might have some traditional MA training. Dunno about any MMA. I remember seeing him breaking boards with kicks in one of the WCW storylines. Hacksaw JD tried to hit him with a 2X4 and Haku just broke it with a kick.
I never liked Cornette's wrestling character with his little tennis racket, and always talking about his mother. But now, I think he's the greatest mouthpiece in wrestling. This guy tells it the way it is. And what's even better is, he's right. I love the analogies he comes up with. "They looked at me like I had flaming terds hanging out of my mouth." How GREAT is that?
would've been fun to see a Dr.Death/Austin streetfight at wrestlemania, but i think they would have to educate the fans quite a bit on exactly WHO Dr.Death is, even then.
@wsymphony Yes, I know that They made him pretty famous in Japan, though, people cared for him there (and alot of people in other countries, including USA who imported AJPW tapes to see him and others) Well, whatever, it's too late either way, the "Brawl For All" is already passed and Dr. Death is sadly not alive anymore
@CombatSportFan Jim went on record saying that he would be willing to return to TNA as long as he could get behind the creative department (which more or less boils down to "Russo being gone" and Ed Ferrera never returning).
Blackman was injured, and he disappeared off of WWF TV for awhile after his last appearance in Brawl for All. Godfather and Steve Williams disappeared for months to rehab their injuries as well. Severn kept on going after he withdrew from the competition.
i pretty much agree however, Bart Gunn went on to be a hell of a draw in Japan as Mike Barton because of the big steve williams knockout. even though he never had drawing power in the states Bart Gunn became a helluva big deal in Japan for a while. so it's safe to say he ended up getting a good run from it.
Ken Shamrock was in WWE but was in developmental training at the time and they didn't want him competing because he was an actual MMA fighter and they didn't want him to dominate the contest.
I like how they reward Gunn's victory with making him box butterbean. Thats like taking a test for a job and then the employer says "good, now you have to fight the company tiger."
@diceCasden As part of Marc Mero's attempted push, they put him up against Butterbean in '97 (see, uh, In Your House 19). Worked match - Didn't go anywhere. That was what got the idea for Brawl for All was only around for 3 months in '98 (Marc Mero lost again in a real match). And it's because Gunn won the Brawl for All that they put him in Wrestlemania 15 in a real boxing match against Butterbean.
@Un1c0RnArmy Both Brawl for All and Junkyard Match are Wrestlecrap inducted. JYM is what I thought of when Jim Cornette mentioned all the guys WWF hurt with this Brawl for All. In the Wrestlecrap Book of Lists they said, "WCW had no buildup for the match, spent a lot of money on a poorly lit match and legitimately hurt many wrestlers and got no extra buys for they're PPV, man we loved WCW."
Can't believe they forgot that Dan Severn was in this and pulled out adter beating Godfather in the first round since he hated having to wear the gloves. A Williams vs Severn "boxing with takedowns" match would have been fucking bizarre and morbidly fascinating.
@DevilTakeMe Which was smart because a few guys did get injured in it. I think Savio retired after because of an injury facing Darren Drozdov, ironically about a year before his injury.
I can't even imagine how the scope of the WWE would have changed had Steve Williams fought Stone Cold, and Bart Gunn became a huge star. Just one of those things to think about.
Shamrock wasn't in developmental, he was already on the main roster. He was on the roster since the summer of 97 I believe, that's when he feuded with Shawn Michaels and DX
@GoodMicWork Dan Severn was simply worried that an injury in "Brawl for All" would ruin his MMA career (not that he did much MMA after pro-wrestling). Not really much to tell there.
Takedowns were allowed in the Brawl For All, though. I watched a handful of matches from it and Steve Blackman won a couple of matches based on takedowns.
Thats the craziest thing, if instead of making it a "Shootfighting" tournament, just made it a worked tourny where they told people to be a little stiff and make it look real good. They could've put ALL of these guys over as legit tough guys, determined the match outcomes, then gave Dr Death a HUGE push and he would've had a massive following.
Story 1 would assume that it was a work in some way, and all points would note that no, since they wouldn't have let Dan Severn compete in the first place, since he was the one with MMA experience. Story 2 is much much more likely. Severn was also noted to be unhappy with the rules, which were also confusing. He had to figure out how to take Godfather down while wearing boxing gloves, and for a wrestler like Severn, that was probably outright irritating.
I remember watching this, and thought it was neat (because shoot) and then Bart Gunn vs. Butterbean I was like what the fuck just happened because it was over so soon. Really the best part about Brawl for All was its theme music, that was pretty cool.
@oldvitor I never understood why people hate on Billy Gunn's promos. I've always loved the way he talked. He was loud, clear and concise and spoke with a lot of energy. And most of all, he was entertaining. Such an unrecognized talent IMO.
Williams was being built-up as an incredible tough-guy who wrestled undefeated for a decade in Japan and was ready to break into the WWF. You build up a monster with that, similar to Ken Shamrock or closer to Vader, whomever. Williams came in with a reputation like that. If Brawl-for-All was a work that established someone like Williams as a "legitimate" tough guy, then you have started that monster off from the start.
The WM fight against Butterbean actually took place more than 6 months after Gunn won the Brawl for All. For whatever reason, the WWF kept Gunn off TV and failed to capitalize on his victory. Anyway, there was no way Williams was being pushed to headline a PPV against Austin. He was washed up by then.
Check again, Vader was still a monster for years after he left the WWF. Foley was broken down years before he was 40. DDP didn't even start wrestling singles matches till he was 38 and was expected to still perform at 45 when he first showed up in the WWF. Flair and HBK both suffered from bad back injuries that forever changed their wrestling style. Hell, HBK was balding and going cross-eyed before he was 40. Williams wouldn't have been a joke.
I am still not seeing how Steve Williams would have drawn more money than what WWE actually made. Explain it to me. Which PPV would have the Austin-Williams match take place?
That's like saying that Vader wasn't a monster who would not have had a better career if politics hadn't gotten in the way. it was the Attitude Era, where the more adult crowd appreciated good wrestling, and great wrestlers who could get into physical competitive matches, just as much as they enjoyed the "ridiculous" and over the top characters.
Age doesn't mean much if you're consistent and used properly. Vader was 41 in 1996 when he debuted and was a dominating monster and remained a monster for years. Ric Flair was in his 50s when he came back to the WWF in 2001 and was still a draw because he was still putting on some of the best matches in the company. Shawn Michaels was still wrestling in great (crosseyed) condition till he was 45. Compare to Foley, who was physically a wreck at 35 in 2000.
Yet, we can disagree, given how the style of wrestling changed during the Attitude Era from the kick-punch style of wrestling they had with Austin after his neck injury and towards much more physically competitive matches that was growing more and more popular as guys like Benoit, Angle, etc. started dominating the undercard. If we had a monster wrestler mixing it up, we might not have had a disastrous Austin heel turn in 2001.
@MrDivalover1 Are you talking about Billy Gunn? That guy couldn't cut a promo, which is why all he was ever allowed to say was one line at the end of Road dogg's promo. And he was very good at cleaning house in tag matches, but didn't really tell a great story in the ring. Which is why Road dogg was always used as the partner in peril, he was the guy that had the story telling, ring psychology, and strong promos. Billy was one of the greatest heavyweight athletes ever, but not a great worker.
Austin himself was tired of his character, not the crowd. He's said on numerous occasions that it was his own call and that he regrets ever doing it. Why? Because no one wanted to see it. Even when he was a heel, he was still getting cheered. He wasn't a Tweener like D-X, he was a outright heel.
The keyword here is MORE. There is no way Steve Williams would have drawn more money than what they did. The only thing you could get is either less or the same. And if the whole point was to draw the same amount, then WWE actually saved money by releasing him.
This just goes to show this is ''BIG'' difference between able to hand your self handle on the Street. And able to fight against trained professional, like Boxers & MMA fighters.
@calikid05 sorry yeah you'r right, i confused severn's case with steve blackman's...blackman won against mero, but could not compete in the next round due to injury.
Mero got taken down at will by Steve Blackman, a guy who had years of martial arts and amateur wrestling training. Blackman had a pretty good double leg, and it was clear that Mero didn't have much if any actual wrestling experience.
My understanding is that Severn withdrew because he didn't like the rules and that he didn't want to jeopardize his MMA career by competing in what was basically an amateur competition.
@yoyo2ma He also didn't need to do it. Dan Severn was already a legitimate MMA champion, so he didn't really need it for his career. If he didn't make it as a wrestler, he still had MMA to fall back on. For all the other guys, it was probably seen as a way to try and get over, and for some guys, it was a last chance at stardom.
Of course,they would have had to build up for 3 months or so prior to Wrestlemania 15 for a match between Stone Cold Steve Austin & "Dr. Death" Steve Williams.To announce it just days or weeks before that wouldn't fly,especially when the then-young,current generation of wrestling fans were not all that familiar with Dr.Death.
The wrong thing was that they then buried Bart Gunn. They had an angle which could have turned Bart into a star, and then they screwed that up by putting him in with Butterbean (who himself thought he was going to get a job with the WWF because he beat Bart). They screwed up with Bart, they screwed up with Steve Williams, they screwed up with Rikishi and that stupid "I did it for the Rock!" angle. These were guys who could have been made stars in an era where they really had the room for it.
@jaryd12345 Are you kidding me? Cornette's been calling Vince Russo a moron publicly since at least 2000. His stance on Russo is well established and has been for a long time.
True. Although I can't argue with Cornette about the Brawl for All tournament, I do think he was WAY overestimating Steve Williams' box office potential.
That would be because of a bad heel turn and the screw-up involving both the Invasion Angle and the incoming nWo. He started no-showing and basically kept off the radar for most of 2002. He'd only show up once in a while because he didn't like the direction the WWE was taking at that time and hated how he was being used in storylines.
We'll never know, as no one was put into "Williams' Role" - There wasn't a "tough guy" role being played up at that caliber that could possibly give Austin a good matchup. There were shootfighters in the WWE, sure - but Shamrock kept getting injured as a singles guy and Severn was a submission guy that couldn't throw a punch. Anyone else with a supposed 'tough guy' persona got beat in the Brawl for All and lost a lot of their own heat there. Bradshaw, Holly, etc.
You are correct. The object was to win the prize money and face Butterbean. The angle was announced in the beginning; Cornette seems to have a mental block about that. But if you read these guys' books, almost every single one of them attempts to rewrite wrestling history to serve their own needs, so that makes him a typical pro wrestling person.
WWE should have pushed Bart Gunn after brawl for all and they could have pushed Steve Willams to. For a little while Bart Gunn was know for his punch and seemed to coming close to a big push.
this comes down to "steve williams jim rosses boy aint so tough bart is a trained boxer" he talks like everyone but bart knows how to actually fight ... as if bart goes to weekly toughmen contests
The in-ring stuff has nothing to do with anything. Austin would still have to turn heel because the fans were getting tired of him, monster or not. If anything, Austin would turn into Cena.
The Brawl for All might have been bad for business, but as an 11 year old watching all these mid-card guys fight; it was awesome. It would be awesome today as well. Imagine all the unused mid-card guys in WWE now boxing each other. Is anyone honestly going to say they wouldn't rather see Zack Ryder vs. Drew MacIntire in a shoot boxing match than the usual bs they do every week on Raw? I mean come on.
Hardcore Holly brought in an interesting input to this in his book. Apparently, JR would never shut the fuck up about how tough Dr. Death is. Management was basically rigging the cards or scores or whatever the fuck they're called in boxing so that Dr. Death would win fights if they ever got close like that. They were so confident in Dr. Death that they had already paid him the prize money before the tournament began. According to Holly, that is. Good fucking lord. JR must have been pissed.
I don't quite agree that BFA was the worse idea ever, something like Katie Vick was worse, but its certainly up there, and Cornette is spot on with every reason he gave. That whole Butterbean thing was a joke!
Yeah, when Butterbean hit Gunn it sounded like a watermelon getting crushed with a sledgehammer. I remember when the fight took place that I could hear Vince McMahon tearing up Gunn's contract after that!!
Triple H was in the WWF longer than Austin, Foley, and the Rock, and he sure as hell wasn't anyone that people cared for until he ingratiated himself into the McMahon family. It takes years to build up a guy to get to the top spots, and it took longer for HHH to get there than any of those guys. How long was Williams in the WWF and active? A couple months because the injury suffered in this terrible idea of a competition.
We're all just a bunch of young schoolgirls with shiny new vibrators and we're just grinnin'
I also saw a shoot interview where Holly claimed that WWF set Bart Gunn up to fail against Butterbean because they were pissed off at him for knocking out Dr Death.
Sure seems like it
Holly also claims it’s a work, which is convenient considering his performance
"375 Pound Human Waterbed" lol Butterbean did look like shit.
+Kael2450 Well, he wasn't the most polished physique around but he was pretty much Dr. Death with boxing experience. He hit like a mack truck in his prime and it practically took a truck to knock him down.
"Shiny new vibrators"
Lmao
Williams tore his hamstring getting taken down by Gunn, not by being mobile in the ring.
It is further evidence that the WWE was pissed at Bart Gunn for winning the thing. Most of the guys he knocked out ended up having good if not great careers after the Brawl 4 All. Godfather wasn't the Godfather at the time of Brawl 4 All, but soon got the gimmick and got over. Bob Holly became Hardcore Holly and got over pretty well, Steve Blackman didn't lose in but was injured in Brawl 4 All but had a good run as Hardcore Champion with Shane McMahon and Bradshaw became one half of the APA and then WWE Champion. Bart Gunn got the holy hell knocked out of him at WrestleMania XV and I hardly remember seeing him again.
The Godfather was definitely the Godfather at that point. He even offered his hoes to an opponent if they chose to lose by default. Pimpin' aint easy.
And Steve Blackman and Bob Holly never really had good careers in the WWE. They never made it past curtain jerker to maybe mid card status.
Frank Furter So Steve Blackman and Bob Holly were curtain jerkers or mid-card, but that is a hell of a lot more than Bart Gunn ever did.
How can you be less than a curtain jerker while still being on television?
and you were still wrong about the Godfather.
"Bart Gunn got the holy hell knocked out of him at WrestleMania XV and I hardly remember seeing him again."
That's because JR shit canned him either that night or a few days later.
That myth that McMahon and the WWE had a grudge against Bart Gunn is just that, a myth. Ever hear the old saying 'don't put your eggs in one basket'? Successful wrestling promotions live by that rule, never wrap the promotion around one wrestler, Fritz Von Erich did that in WCCW with his sons, when they fell the promotion fell. Yes, they probably had big plans for Dr. Death, but shit happens, wrestlers come and go, promoters need to be able to adapt or they perish. The Brawl was a legitimate in-house tough man contest but poorly made, the promoters had no idea what to do with it after it was all said and done. And the problem with Bart was that, while he was a perfectly capable wrestler, and the winner of the contest, he had no charisma, Billy was the talker in the Smokin Gunns, and Cornette was the voice of the New Midnight Express, they couldn't really do anything with Bart, and what little they could do was shot down by his humiliating fight with Butterbean. Best just to give him his severense and pretend the Brawl never happened.
Side Note: when you think about it, losing to Butterbean wasn't that humiliating. Regardless of Cornettes colorful description of him, Eric Esch was the standing super-heavyweight boxing champion, equally as tough as Dr. Death but with a hundred times more boxing experience and a punch that would knock out you and everyone who looked like you. There weren't many people around who could stand up to Butterbean in his prime.
I remember watching the Butterbean fight and thinking "what the fuck is this, why are they boxing?"
How can Cornette and the interviewer forget that Steve Blackman was in Brawl for All. Jim mentions that you can't take down someone with boxing gloves but Blackman took down Marc Mero 13 times in 3 minutes. He even outboxed Mero despite the fact that Mero was a golden gloves boxer. According to Bob Holly, Blackman would have won the tournament hands down and even killed ButterBean at Mania but he had to pull out due to a busted knee while training
Love Jim Cornette... you always get the blunt truth from him!
"Whe are all a bunch of young school girls with shiny new vibrators and we're grinning" The greatest/funniest words ever spoken on TH-cam.
This whole Brawl For All debacle shows how sorry of a “writer” Vince Russo really is. He’s such a creative genius (or so his fans & followers want us to believe) but he couldn’t come up with some kind of gimmick or storyline for Bart after this?He couldn’t repackage him as Triple G or 3-G (Golden Gloves Gunn), make his finishing move a massive KO punch (it worked for Big Show and Lacy Evans), give him an IC title run, or even a Hardcore title run to capitalize on his BFA win?? GTFOH! Eric Bischoff and Jim Cornette talked about Russo’s “crash TV” thought process and how it had little or no complete start-to-finish storylines or concepts, and this is a prime example of that ...
corny has a poetic eloquence and cadence at swearing that is breathtaking a true virtuoso i hated him so much when i was a kid in the early 80s and i love him 2x as much now
“In a fight, in a boxing match”😂 just how he says it!!😂
Oh, God, I'm rolling over here. It's like you can _hear_ the Cornette Face.
I wish Haku could have been in it. If it was really a shoot, there would be no doubt about who would have won.
folger1 haku is hands down the toughest guy in wrestling if wrestling was real he would be champion of the world
folger1 does Haku have any boxing or MMA type background?
john smith I don't know his background, but all the boys knew that Haku was a legitimate bad-ass; nobody f---ed with Haku. He's been in some pretty famous, well-documented bar fights you can read about, if you're willing to do a little research.
+john smith I think he might have some traditional MA training. Dunno about any MMA. I remember seeing him breaking boards with kicks in one of the WCW storylines. Hacksaw JD tried to hit him with a 2X4 and Haku just broke it with a kick.
+john smith Not sure, but he bit off a guy's nose in a bar, according to Ric Flair.
Droz, Marc Nero, godfather, Steve Williams,jbl, hawk, 2 cold Scorpio, Bob holly, one of the Harris bros.,Bart gunn, Dan severn
Savio Vega and Hawk got hurt doing Brawl for All too I believe
I never liked Cornette's wrestling character with his little tennis racket, and always talking about his mother. But now, I think he's the greatest mouthpiece in wrestling. This guy tells it the way it is. And what's even better is, he's right. I love the analogies he comes up with. "They looked at me like I had flaming terds hanging out of my mouth." How GREAT is that?
would've been fun to see a Dr.Death/Austin streetfight at wrestlemania, but i think they would have to educate the fans quite a bit on exactly WHO Dr.Death is, even then.
Same reason Severn bowed out of it after round 1, as a former UFC Champion the Brawl For All was beneath him
The upper card was Russo's thing. Austin vs McMahon, Rock and Sock Connection, DX. The man was a genius.
"We're all just a bunch of young schoolgirls with shiny new vibrators..."
LMFAO. Jim Cornette is insanely hilarious.
@wozisababe which I dont understand why blackman,mero,and severn were overlooked since they actually knew how to fight.
Dr. Death vs. Steve Austin would have been awesome!!!!
Sadly I can see someone like Nunzio (little Guido) beating Austin or HHH in a real fight
@wsymphony
Yes, I know that
They made him pretty famous in Japan, though, people cared for him there (and alot of people in other countries, including USA who imported AJPW tapes to see him and others)
Well, whatever, it's too late either way, the "Brawl For All" is already passed and Dr. Death is sadly not alive anymore
@CombatSportFan Jim went on record saying that he would be willing to return to TNA as long as he could get behind the creative department (which more or less boils down to "Russo being gone" and Ed Ferrera never returning).
The way Cornette says 'Butterbean' here cracks me up lmao!
Blackman was injured, and he disappeared off of WWF TV for awhile after his last appearance in Brawl for All. Godfather and Steve Williams disappeared for months to rehab their injuries as well.
Severn kept on going after he withdrew from the competition.
i pretty much agree however, Bart Gunn went on to be a hell of a draw in Japan as Mike Barton because of the big steve williams knockout. even though he never had drawing power in the states Bart Gunn became a helluva big deal in Japan for a while. so it's safe to say he ended up getting a good run from it.
Ken Shamrock was in WWE but was in developmental training at the time and they didn't want him competing because he was an actual MMA fighter and they didn't want him to dominate the contest.
No sure. But this was downloaded from the whosslammingwho site.
@hustleking17 where does the AWA's Team Challenge Series rank on that list?
I like how they reward Gunn's victory with making him box butterbean.
Thats like taking a test for a job and then the employer says "good, now you have to fight the company tiger."
@diceCasden As part of Marc Mero's attempted push, they put him up against Butterbean in '97 (see, uh, In Your House 19). Worked match - Didn't go anywhere. That was what got the idea for Brawl for All was only around for 3 months in '98 (Marc Mero lost again in a real match). And it's because Gunn won the Brawl for All that they put him in Wrestlemania 15 in a real boxing match against Butterbean.
Marc Mero, he was in it too. The only one I really remember, since he was doing the boxer/wrestler gimmik at the time.
@Un1c0RnArmy Both Brawl for All and Junkyard Match are Wrestlecrap inducted. JYM is what I thought of when Jim Cornette mentioned all the guys WWF hurt with this Brawl for All. In the Wrestlecrap Book of Lists they said, "WCW had no buildup for the match, spent a lot of money on a poorly lit match and legitimately hurt many wrestlers and got no extra buys for they're PPV, man we loved WCW."
Can't believe they forgot that Dan Severn was in this and pulled out adter beating Godfather in the first round since he hated having to wear the gloves. A Williams vs Severn "boxing with takedowns" match would have been fucking bizarre and morbidly fascinating.
@HawaiianRoss Was Ken Shamrock in WWE at hat time?
It was in philadelphia which is a huge boxing town too
@DevilTakeMe Which was smart because a few guys did get injured in it. I think Savio retired after because of an injury facing Darren Drozdov, ironically about a year before his injury.
@supaTW yep, the Brawl For All ended Savio Vega's career in WWE
It was WM 14, not 15 between Bart Gunn and Butterbean (I can't believe I remember that). It was Gorilla Monsoon's last WWF TV appearance.
+TheJuliet316
no, it was definitely 15
I can't even imagine how the scope of the WWE would have changed had Steve Williams fought Stone Cold, and Bart Gunn became a huge star. Just one of those things to think about.
Shamrock wasn't in developmental, he was already on the main roster. He was on the roster since the summer of 97 I believe, that's when he feuded with Shawn Michaels and DX
@GoodMicWork Dan Severn was simply worried that an injury in "Brawl for All" would ruin his MMA career (not that he did much MMA after pro-wrestling). Not really much to tell there.
Butterbean the human waterbed. Thats good.
This Brawl for All sounds like WCW's Junkyard match.
Takedowns were allowed in the Brawl For All, though. I watched a handful of matches from it and Steve Blackman won a couple of matches based on takedowns.
Thats the craziest thing, if instead of making it a "Shootfighting" tournament, just made it a worked tourny where they told people to be a little stiff and make it look real good. They could've put ALL of these guys over as legit tough guys, determined the match outcomes, then gave Dr Death a HUGE push and he would've had a massive following.
Story 1 would assume that it was a work in some way, and all points would note that no, since they wouldn't have let Dan Severn compete in the first place, since he was the one with MMA experience.
Story 2 is much much more likely. Severn was also noted to be unhappy with the rules, which were also confusing. He had to figure out how to take Godfather down while wearing boxing gloves, and for a wrestler like Severn, that was probably outright irritating.
Wow, I'm shocked. I can't find the Dr. Death/Bart Gunn match anywhere on youtube. wtf?!
I remember watching this, and thought it was neat (because shoot) and then Bart Gunn vs. Butterbean I was like what the fuck just happened because it was over so soon. Really the best part about Brawl for All was its theme music, that was pretty cool.
@dhlfh did dr. death go undefeated for 10 years in japan after his fall out from wwf tho
@oldvitor I never understood why people hate on Billy Gunn's promos. I've always loved the way he talked. He was loud, clear and concise and spoke with a lot of energy. And most of all, he was entertaining. Such an unrecognized talent IMO.
Williams was being built-up as an incredible tough-guy who wrestled undefeated for a decade in Japan and was ready to break into the WWF. You build up a monster with that, similar to Ken Shamrock or closer to Vader, whomever. Williams came in with a reputation like that.
If Brawl-for-All was a work that established someone like Williams as a "legitimate" tough guy, then you have started that monster off from the start.
The WM fight against Butterbean actually took place more than 6 months after Gunn won the Brawl for All. For whatever reason, the WWF kept Gunn off TV and failed to capitalize on his victory. Anyway, there was no way Williams was being pushed to headline a PPV against Austin. He was washed up by then.
Check again, Vader was still a monster for years after he left the WWF. Foley was broken down years before he was 40. DDP didn't even start wrestling singles matches till he was 38 and was expected to still perform at 45 when he first showed up in the WWF.
Flair and HBK both suffered from bad back injuries that forever changed their wrestling style. Hell, HBK was balding and going cross-eyed before he was 40.
Williams wouldn't have been a joke.
sometimes i hate what he says sometimes i love it,but jim is always entertaining
I am still not seeing how Steve Williams would have drawn more money than what WWE actually made. Explain it to me. Which PPV would have the Austin-Williams match take place?
That's like saying that Vader wasn't a monster who would not have had a better career if politics hadn't gotten in the way.
it was the Attitude Era, where the more adult crowd appreciated good wrestling, and great wrestlers who could get into physical competitive matches, just as much as they enjoyed the "ridiculous" and over the top characters.
I laughed so bad when Jim was talking about Butterbean
think it might of been a combo of both not 100%, i seen a shoot with cornette where he said it was russo's idea and metioned Bradshaw
Age doesn't mean much if you're consistent and used properly. Vader was 41 in 1996 when he debuted and was a dominating monster and remained a monster for years.
Ric Flair was in his 50s when he came back to the WWF in 2001 and was still a draw because he was still putting on some of the best matches in the company. Shawn Michaels was still wrestling in great (crosseyed) condition till he was 45.
Compare to Foley, who was physically a wreck at 35 in 2000.
Yet, we can disagree, given how the style of wrestling changed during the Attitude Era from the kick-punch style of wrestling they had with Austin after his neck injury and towards much more physically competitive matches that was growing more and more popular as guys like Benoit, Angle, etc. started dominating the undercard.
If we had a monster wrestler mixing it up, we might not have had a disastrous Austin heel turn in 2001.
@MrDivalover1 Are you talking about Billy Gunn? That guy couldn't cut a promo, which is why all he was ever allowed to say was one line at the end of Road dogg's promo. And he was very good at cleaning house in tag matches, but didn't really tell a great story in the ring. Which is why Road dogg was always used as the partner in peril, he was the guy that had the story telling, ring psychology, and strong promos.
Billy was one of the greatest heavyweight athletes ever, but not a great worker.
It was actually Wrestlemania XIV--Bart Gunn vs. Butterbean.
Austin himself was tired of his character, not the crowd. He's said on numerous occasions that it was his own call and that he regrets ever doing it.
Why? Because no one wanted to see it. Even when he was a heel, he was still getting cheered. He wasn't a Tweener like D-X, he was a outright heel.
The keyword here is MORE. There is no way Steve Williams would have drawn more money than what they did. The only thing you could get is either less or the same. And if the whole point was to draw the same amount, then WWE actually saved money by releasing him.
This just goes to show this is ''BIG'' difference between able to hand your self handle on the Street. And able to fight against trained professional, like Boxers & MMA fighters.
@calikid05
sorry yeah you'r right, i confused severn's case with steve blackman's...blackman won against mero, but could not compete in the next round due to injury.
No mention of Brakus? Scheiße!
Maître Renard LOL This showed big muscles mean nothing
Mero got taken down at will by Steve Blackman, a guy who had years of martial arts and amateur wrestling training. Blackman had a pretty good double leg, and it was clear that Mero didn't have much if any actual wrestling experience.
My understanding is that Severn withdrew because he didn't like the rules and that he didn't want to jeopardize his MMA career by competing in what was basically an amateur competition.
@yoyo2ma He also didn't need to do it. Dan Severn was already a legitimate MMA champion, so he didn't really need it for his career. If he didn't make it as a wrestler, he still had MMA to fall back on.
For all the other guys, it was probably seen as a way to try and get over, and for some guys, it was a last chance at stardom.
Dan Severn was in it.
Of course,they would have had to build up for 3 months or so prior to Wrestlemania 15 for a match between Stone Cold Steve Austin & "Dr. Death" Steve Williams.To announce it just days or weeks before that wouldn't fly,especially when the then-young,current generation of wrestling fans were not all that familiar with Dr.Death.
The wrong thing was that they then buried Bart Gunn. They had an angle which could have turned Bart into a star, and then they screwed that up by putting him in with Butterbean (who himself thought he was going to get a job with the WWF because he beat Bart).
They screwed up with Bart, they screwed up with Steve Williams, they screwed up with Rikishi and that stupid "I did it for the Rock!" angle. These were guys who could have been made stars in an era where they really had the room for it.
@jaryd12345
Are you kidding me? Cornette's been calling Vince Russo a moron publicly since at least 2000. His stance on Russo is well established and has been for a long time.
@EmeraldIsleStar
So Buster Douglas,Evander Holyfield, & Lennox Lewis never put Tyson on his ass right?
True. Although I can't argue with Cornette about the Brawl for All tournament, I do think he was WAY overestimating Steve Williams' box office potential.
I felt bad for Bart Gunn when this happened. The Brawl for All gave him mad respect from the fans and they the WWF squashed him with this fight.
The vince he refers to as far as the 1 who came up with the idea
is RUSSO not Mcmahon
Russo was simply showing us what would happen if WWE was real. BART GUNN would be our World Champion lol
haha
That would be because of a bad heel turn and the screw-up involving both the Invasion Angle and the incoming nWo. He started no-showing and basically kept off the radar for most of 2002. He'd only show up once in a while because he didn't like the direction the WWE was taking at that time and hated how he was being used in storylines.
@wsymphony
Not the way WWE presented Steve Williams, they could've built him up alot better but you're right, but he certainly wasn't a "nobody"
who would favor dr.death over dan severn?
Yes,he did;he interfered in a match between Bart Gunn & Hardcore Holly when he superkicked Gunn in the face.
Was Ken Shamrock in the WWF at this point why was he not in it?
We'll never know, as no one was put into "Williams' Role" - There wasn't a "tough guy" role being played up at that caliber that could possibly give Austin a good matchup.
There were shootfighters in the WWE, sure - but Shamrock kept getting injured as a singles guy and Severn was a submission guy that couldn't throw a punch.
Anyone else with a supposed 'tough guy' persona got beat in the Brawl for All and lost a lot of their own heat there. Bradshaw, Holly, etc.
You are correct. The object was to win the prize money and face Butterbean. The angle was announced in the beginning; Cornette seems to have a mental block about that. But if you read these guys' books, almost every single one of them attempts to rewrite wrestling history to serve their own needs, so that makes him a typical pro wrestling person.
WWE should have pushed Bart Gunn after brawl for all and they could have pushed Steve Willams to. For a little while Bart Gunn was know for his punch and seemed to coming close to a big push.
I think people are misremembering this storyline, because I remember the Brawl for All was ALWAYS to determine who would fight Butterbean...
this comes down to "steve williams jim rosses boy aint so tough bart is a trained boxer" he talks like everyone but bart knows how to actually fight ... as if bart goes to weekly toughmen contests
The in-ring stuff has nothing to do with anything.
Austin would still have to turn heel because the fans were getting tired of him, monster or not. If anything, Austin would turn into Cena.
damn steve williams vs stone cold an bart gunn an bradshaw as the new midnight express would have been tight
The Brawl for All might have been bad for business, but as an 11 year old watching all these mid-card guys fight; it was awesome. It would be awesome today as well. Imagine all the unused mid-card guys in WWE now boxing each other. Is anyone honestly going to say they wouldn't rather see Zack Ryder vs. Drew MacIntire in a shoot boxing match than the usual bs they do every week on Raw? I mean come on.
Hardcore Holly brought in an interesting input to this in his book. Apparently, JR would never shut the fuck up about how tough Dr. Death is. Management was basically rigging the cards or scores or whatever the fuck they're called in boxing so that Dr. Death would win fights if they ever got close like that.
They were so confident in Dr. Death that they had already paid him the prize money before the tournament began. According to Holly, that is. Good fucking lord. JR must have been pissed.
I don't quite agree that BFA was the worse idea ever, something like Katie Vick was worse, but its certainly up there, and Cornette is spot on with every reason he gave. That whole Butterbean thing was a joke!
Yeah, when Butterbean hit Gunn it sounded like a watermelon getting crushed with a sledgehammer. I remember when the fight took place that I could hear Vince McMahon tearing up Gunn's contract after that!!
Triple H was in the WWF longer than Austin, Foley, and the Rock, and he sure as hell wasn't anyone that people cared for until he ingratiated himself into the McMahon family.
It takes years to build up a guy to get to the top spots, and it took longer for HHH to get there than any of those guys. How long was Williams in the WWF and active? A couple months because the injury suffered in this terrible idea of a competition.
Jim Cornette was spot on about that brawl for all crap.