@@gammashift 24:05 I know you mean well and you're being extremely polite, but the expectation of an update whenever contact is made is extremely intimidating to smaller creators.
28:35 just want to note that they couldn't retire after HK because Hornet was part of the kickstarter campaign. They are literally still on the kickstarter arc which is crazy to think about.
yeah but they couldve just added hornet as a playable character or having a tiny side quest as hornet and retire but they decided to make an entirely new game instead
@@diegoalanis6283 Yep, that's all true but I wanted to clarify that the end of HK didn't mean the end of their obligations like the video made it sound
@@Tubeytime Technically, they're not obliged to produce anything with playable Hornet; they just have to make a good faith effort, and spend the Kickstarter funds on legitimate project expenses (which includes feeding the programmers). Considering that they spent through the Kickstarter funds and then some even before Hollow Knight itself released, they have satisfied their Kickstarter obligations. Of course, there's nothing stopping them from doing more - and no reason they shouldn't take their legally non-binding commitment seriously - but them doing so is because they want to, not because they're required to.
@@rmsgrey You're wrong. "Technically" they MUST meet their exact promises for every tier goal reached. Failure to do so is a crime called fraud. In fact people have made the original kickstarter item, but failed to deliver on bonus goals, and were then hit by a lawsuit that they lost. Kickstarter isn't a donation site. It's a public funding site with rules and anyone using it is subject to the law. It is a legally binding agreement. They DID have to make a playable Hornet or they would be at risk of a lawsuit that held solid ground against them.
Silksong'll come out some day, and it'll probably be great. Yes there's the creator's trap of never ending up releasing anything. But For my money, as a creative, I'm very happy to see people being able to work on their things in the way that they want. Team Cherry has been granted that opportunity, and that's fantastic. Despite the sometimes unfair levels of pressure some people put on them, knowingly or not, I hope they're having fun. I'm excited to see what will come of it, whenever it releases. I have enough games to play in the meantime.
In my opinion, they should only release Silksong once their studio is on the verge of collapsing. They should keep improving, expanding, and iterating on the game so that whenever it finally does come out, it is as good as it can possibly be.
This is basically how I feel about it, they can take whatever time they need, they already made ONE genre defining game, let these mfs cook however long they want.
Getting mad and accusing the devs of different things is beyond stupid but the general dissatisfaction with their communication is understandable. They released trailers, gameplay, had a demo, appeared on gamepass and advertising. Set so much up like they were ready to release soon then just . . . Stopped The issue isn’t the silence, but the massive wave of hype they created only to drop off the face of the earth
What do you even want from them. They've said it over and over again, they're working on it. They clearly don't want to give more screenshots or footage as to not spoil the game, so there's not much they can really give us besides reassuring us that the project is still alive. At this point the hollow knight community would only be satisfied if they just give a release date, which clearly that's not gonna happen right now.
@penultimania4295 They literally have? Did you forget all of what they said in 2023, and also they've literally said that THIS YEAR. I don't think you've looked hard enough. They said something like 2 months ago at a convention and EVERYBODY ignored it.
@@mrholeio3060 Yeah I wonder why they ignored it. Maybe they should do an official fcking update on Steam or any of the official channels? Bunch of scrubs.
I heavily respect the fact that they don’t want to interact with ravenous fans since it’s become very clear as of late how toxic the gaming community at large is towards developers, but part of me wishes team cherry took the Toby Fox approach and wrote tiny newsletters that gave us an idea of where they were at with development without actually showing too much from the game.
Yeah, that's completely true. Also, they probably told Leth not to say anything, and I respect that just because of the same thing. Some people are so toxic, if Leth responded there would be hundreds insulting him, and he has nothing to do with the delays.
Idk about this take tbh. The reason the fans are so pissed is because of team cherry’s communication style. A few updates every year would really go a long way, just so that people know that the game is actually gonna come out eventually and will be good. Obviously there are ‘ravenous’ fans that take it too far, but every fan base has those, and they should be shamed
@@Cucardo This still redounds to Team Cherry's fault though, because that environment was created by their silence. Granted those people will always exist and trolls are ever present. But they have definitely exacerbated those problems.
yeah, i have always been very worried that when Silksong releases, people will be mad because its not perfect or its not exactly the game they were expecting.
I'm sick of game studios pumping out sequels right after getting success with a game. Them actually taking rhe time they need to make it exactly how they like is refreshjng as fuck. Sad that it I can't play it yet, but if we want a game as good and most likely wildly better than hollow knight, we need to let them cook.
I am going to choose my words more carefully going forward when assessing indie-developed projects, too often I end up talking about them with the same critical tone I use for the big-budget super-studios with comparatively infinite resources. Also I know all too well the pain of waiting on The Winds of Winter, haha. I'm resigned to the delay, I no longer expect it to release during GRRM's lifetime, and if it does, well, it'll be like Christmas morning, whatever day it is!
@@insertjokehere212 It's been like that forever, if he couldn't have finished during quarantine where he was locked inside his home, I doubt he's ever going to finish it, especially with his reaction to HotD, I'm pretty sure he's just given up at this point
I'm not angry at the devs or anything, because I've done software engineering. I understand scope creep very well, it's why one of the hardest parts of development isn't the actual coding - it's figuring out how much you can do within a given time frame. Team Cherry being an indie studio means they thankfully don't have to answer to big investors, but it also means they aren't required to set a deadline for themselves either the way other software developers would have. It means if they decide on a whim "Hey, why don't we add this to the game;" they can just continue to put off the release. I am almost certain that there is some form of the game that is effectively "complete" that they could release, but their standards are so high they don't want to. I'm certain the final release will be amazing, but the biggest issue is the total lack of communication. They don't need to engage with fans about when it'll be done - just show them it's being worked on.
I disagree, and as the video said- they can give an estimate, but then overshoot it, and have even more anger directed at them. The more you engage with fans, the more they feel entitled to engage back. I'm sure Team Cherry have received all sorts of nasty harassment and death threats because that's how people allow themselves to act online, especially to public figures. No communication = less anxiety & harassment. I'm glad they're keeping quiet for now. Fans are not entitled to communication.
@@Abby-ug4xcBut communication =/= giving an estimate. They could at the very least put out an annual statement literally just confirming they're still working on it. It doesn't even have to include any sneak peeks. Even if everyone already knows they're working on it. Just give people something.
@@machinegirl0324:05 should explain why they don't. Like... _you_ might not expect that, but of the countless numbers of fans at least several hundred _will._ Edit: Also, they have Leth give confirmation that they're working on it. The video even mentions that.
@@ApexGale They promised a second playable character, not a huge sequel. They couldn't make hornet playable because she's too tall. So they could've used Zote, or another character. A sequel is way more than the backer promise
Not even a game like this can remain a passion project for this long. It will sooner or later turn into something negative in your life I think. That's my 2 cents but I might be totally wrong. Maybe they took some years off at some point, who knows? I wish them well too.
You know i just made a comment that boils down to "c'mon guys, why do you care so much, your love for the franchise is not going to lessen if you stop stressing about not getting coms" but this one is pretty funny, i endorse this behavior if we're doing it to apple
Video was well paced, well edited and informative. The voice commentary was clear and articulate. Very high quality for someone with only a few thousand subscribers man your underrated.
So basically, stop talking about Silksong or even forget about the game. Just wait for however many years it'll take for them to release it. I'm sure the moment they say a release date, we will all play through Hollow Knight one more time and start the journey of Silksong.
I feel like I’m the one silksong fan not mad at team cherry for not communicating. They are professional developers, and I’m happy that they are developing their next game. I don’t need updates on development or any sort of status update.
wow this video is very insightful, i hope more hollow knight fans can see this vid, it definetly changed the way i looked at this situation. Thanks for this great look into other situations, and how this seems like nothing particularly new for the indie gaming industry. Have a great rest of your day/night!
It is funny to spam Silksong at games showcases, but I have never understood people being actually angry over it's development time. We live in a time where there are so many amazing games coming out every year, big and small. So many that I probably will never be able to play all the ones I want to before I die. Now I am not 13 with all the time in world so it's easy for me to say that, but even so.
Because it's been nearly a decade and a game of HK quality and length does not take this long. Not to mention they hyped everyone up then just went silent for years.
@@mentholnewport Sounds like you didn't watch the video, because it explained very well why it and other similar games take so long. There is zero legitimate reason to be angry with them. They're humans working on a passion project and don't owe fans anything lol
Yeah exactly. There are so many amazing games, even lots of great metdroidvanias released in the past few years. Far too many to play in a lifetime. Tunic is a great one surprisingly few people know about
we r not agry because of the time the game is taking, we r mad because there is 0 communication with the fan base. It s silence radio, 0 informations for years
@@25andromede Wdym zero information. Their PR guy gives occasional updates But there are other ppl saying zero would be better than just a little bit, so no one is going to be universally happy until tit's released
I think an interesting similar situation is the release of Geometry Dash 2.2. It took almost 7 years to come out with just an update, and it's been almost a year now, but the developer (Robtop Games) also spoke about all the pressure when the update kept taking longer and longer.
by the time he dropped the update game died out and i had no interest in playing it. cus i grew up 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ also he only dropped one level. kinda underwhelming
the update actually had loads of content, and the game did not die out lol. the community is literally bigger than ever. the update included a bunch of new platformer levels (an entire new way to play the game), a new gamemode, and the changes to the editor were huge
I have no issue with the time they’re putting in. But why declare its release when it’s so early in development? Why post a trailer when it’s still years before we even get a demo? That was their biggest mistake because those two tools are generally used to hype up a game SOON to come out. Think if we had an announcement for silksong then a year or two later we get a trailer and within the next year we have the game in our hands. Think of the hype that we would have kept. Instead it’s been dragging on for so long and overshadowing the devs, the community, and every other game that we look past because we’re just waiting for news on silksong or we only give credit to it as a “patch till silksong.”
honestly, thats producers fault, nintendo and xbox are the ones that work with having a deadline to release their games, so nintendo seeing the success of hk in switch they obviously pay team cherry to give them a demo and probably they make the trailer for the nintendo direct, but team cherry its an independent company they dont need nintendo and xbox anymore so they just develop the game while xbox and nintendo keep making these false deadlines because they work that way
@@Hector-wj6jn Precisely. Also, let's be realistic -- is there anything Team Cherry *can* say that is not gonna result in people being *more* mad at them. The longer time goes on, the more likely people are going to react badly to any news that aren't Silksong's actual release date. For every person who says "if they only did this" there are still at least a hundred who will respond to that exact thing with vitriol and death threats and accusations of being a lying sellout.
Thing is, they kind of _had_ to announce Silksong early because of the kickstarter promise that Hornet would be playable in the original game. If they hadn't announced it, "When Silksong?" would just be replaced with "When Hornet Story?" At least this way we can at least understand why it's taking so long.
They had to announce it because people were anticipating the DLC for Hollow Knight. If they didn't release it they would've been accused of not following their promises.
You really can't level any criticism at Team Cherry at all when you understand this is only their second game, they've only beem developing games for a decade, and they are a tiny team, whereas even multibillion dollar companies like nintendo, with huge teams and resources, and over FOUR DECADES of experience in the industry, cannot competently manage a project or predict how long it will take with any degree of accuracy at all. I mean look at Tears of the Kingdom. That was a franchise they've been making games in since the 80s, and they're ALWAYS delayed REPEATEDLY, and yet every new game, they think they know what the release date will be, amd they're wrong. Again and again. That was a game where they basically already went through the exact same development cycle with BotW, and they STILL could not figure out what they were doing or how long it would take. That was a game where they already had the entire game engine pre-existing from the last game, almost the entire map pre-existing from the last game, and the majority of the assets pre-existing from the last game. And it was fuck up after fuck up, delay after delay. Again, a multi billion dollar company, four decades in the industry, and a game they had already made once, in a series they've been making and remaking since the 80s. No clue what they're doing. To wonder why Team Cherry is taking this long or saying nothing is frankly laughable.
Personally, I hate how contradicting gamers are sometimes... Like games these days have been released way too early in an unfinished state... so they are angry they didn't take the time to finish it... Then you get devs who are so passionate about their project that they REFUSE to release anything until it is perfect. Yet, so many people are constantly rushing them. The reason they are silent is to prevent any time expectations from arising. Once they show something, people want more. And more. And more. Until they can't keep up. Or if they release information people will speculate and rush them further. Or people will get angry there is no release window, etc. They are isolating themselves to nurture their project to the best state it can be in.
no, as a game dev myself i do find it absolutely fucking retarded they don't have any main outlet for talking to their community in any way this has taken a very long time and absolutely should have at least constant guarantees from a PR rep that they are still working hard to make the game as great as possible Toby Fox has had newsletters on the development of Deltarune consistently for the past like year and a half and it has only served to healthily nurture the community's excitement while also setting boundaries and realistic expectations on what timeframes for release are. There is literally no reason for why Team Cherry cannot do the exact same other than simply put laziness.
Yeah, every game should be Duke Nukem Forever. A delayed game is always great, they absolutely _should_ spend 10 years constantly changing and expanding the scope of the game to something a team of 2 will never be able to complete.
I think the anticipation for Silksong got to a point where it's impossible for Team Cherry to not feel the pressure to stop adding things and concentrate on releasing. Remember, they planned to release during the first half of 2023. I would not be surprised if they were in Bug-Fixing mode since then. I imagine they are way more wary when it comes to bugs (hehe) affecting the reception of the game this time around compared to when they made Hollow Knight and were unknown.
@@le_gus001i mean that’s about how long that should take especially considering the giant size of this game and the small amount of people working on it
Another big factor is that since consoles (and Nintendo especially) make it extremely hard for indie games to maintain parity with patches due to the certification process, and since the Switch version is so important, they have to iron out as many bugs as possible before releasing it. Significantly more than if they weren't simultaneously releasing it
I honestly think the best thing you can do as an indie dev to keep your community happy is having a healthy modding community. I understand there are definitely restrictions to this (console), but i still think its a very important part of a games community.
Even though Hollow Knight is one of my favorite games of all time, I don't mind waiting for Silksong for a couple reasons. 1) I am completely willing to wait for the amount of time needed to fix most bugs/glitches or errors in the game to make sure it has a fantastic launch 2) The creative process is slow and takes a long time to not just come up with ideas, but to then actually execute on them, creating the drawings and music, making the gameplay feel fresh with that idea, piecing that together with your whole game, and making it flow for story. Its a lot of work and Team Cherry is one of the few dev teams I have seen that actually has so much passion for what they are doing. For the interviews they have done and Matt has done, you can tell they love the work they are doing, and they want this game to be amazing. The Indie's Gamers Podcast is great because hearing his passion for TC working on their project is awesome. My only major complaint that I think most people have is the silence, however not them just being silent, but rather preparing us for an amazing launch with game pass and showing us a cool demo back in 2019 and really hyping our expectations, only to say they had to delay to keep working on the game (which is completely fine) but then not updating the community about anything. Very few updates around holidays in their discord or one off Tweets. They have chosen to be incredibly silent after preparing us for many years of hype to then kinda just back out quietly. A lot of people say the amount of pressure they are under must be tremendous, and it absolutely is, but part of that is their own doing with the direction they took to advertise the game and give us a release window with xbox. However I do know that working under that pressure can be very difficult, or maybe they even feel none and are truly just in the zone pouring ideas out of their heads. They were infact out of money right when Hk released. They had an okay launch, got amazing marketing, and continued to update and expand the game to make it one of the best indie games to date. Now they have the time and money, which means they get to truly put their strengths to the test and deliver a beautiful project, and I cant wait to be ready to buy it day one, no matter how long it takes. Much love HK community and TC
Another thing to note is that a small studio has a team dynamic which makes it hard to fit more people to fill roles that the established team doesn't fill, and if you engage with the community, that is a whole set of roles. As a contrast, consider something like Hades 2. I'm on the discord and playing the early access, and it definitely does serve their process to use early access and engage with the fans more consistently than Team Cherry did, but despite not being a AAA studio, Supergiant Games still has more people just wrangling the community than team cherry has period, and they need that despite having a development cycle which is MUCH better than TC's for the purpose of keeping impatient fans satisfied.
Silksong will come out when Team Cherry are satisfied with what has been made. It will be at minimum just Hollow Knight but a bit larger and with a new playable character and that is already good enough. There are other wonderful games, metroidvania or otherwise, that can be played in the meantime.
I really, really, *really* appreciate the kindness in this discussion -- as someone who has just recently jumped into game development and seen how *painfully* slow it can be, it is so horrible to see how unknown creators go from being dark horse successes to being attacked everywhere. I caught up on some video game kickstarters I backed a few years ago and all the comments that are upset things aren't delivered on time, even with incredible communication, is so, so demoralizing. I appreciate that, even without communication, you're out here giving people hope and able to make reasonable conclusions that don't involve death threats or hate mail. Thank you.
something i wonder about the development of silksong is if it was being developed in unity like hollow knight. Because that would be another thing to put into account; the possible delay of changing engines due to unity falling from grace during it's development. So its not hard to think they would have to port the whole game over to a new engine like gadot or make their own from scratch which spawns a whole new gaggle of challenges or with a custom engine more opportunities to expand on. Changing an engine mid development is a KILLER for even AAA company titles so if team cherry had to switch off of unity you can imagine the kind of stress that can put on development.
By the time of the unity drama they were definitely already way too far into development to switch engines lol, like 4 years for an indie studio has put them too far in to just change and learn a brand new engine
Okay, and if that were the case, why wouldn't they take literally fifteen, yes, fifteen seconds to type "Due to recent events regarding Unity, we are switching engines. This will take a lot of work"? They literally have hired a social media person and all he does is make random troll remarks in the discord once a year.
@xelith6157 because they didn’t swap from unity? it literally says on their website they are still using unity and the website was updated after everything that happened with unity lol.
Great video! Loved the breakdown of the whole situation. I'm part of the fans who didn't quite understand the minimal amount of communication, but still didn't mind waiting for when the game eventually comes out, it's really nice to understand it better now. I hope this video helps at least a part of the community understand the situation better and respect the developers more.
Guys, Hollow Knight was crowdfunded on a budget of $15,000. Hollow Knight has since sold 3 million copies at prices varying from 15-25 dollars. Lowballing it, they made $45,000,000, which is a bit more than fifteen grand. They have the budget to do literally everything they couldn't afford in Hollow Knight, but that's going to take a while.
It's been said many times, but it rings true: tough as it is to admit, the odds of Silksong actually living up to people's expectations are pretty low. There's also the potential issues of there having been so much iteration on Hollow Knight's core ideas that the game will feel very different, both in terms of combat and structure of the game. Some people will like the change, but I'm very confident that at least a small portion of the fanbase, the part that's been playing with the same relatively simple movement and mechanics religiously for 7 years now, will not. I could be wrong, I hope I am, but history and human nature don't paint a 100% optimistic picture. But don't get me wrong, I'm confident the game will be excellent-I'm simply saying that people ought to meter their expections and expect a game that likely will not be identical (or even very similar) to their experience with Hollow Knight.
I think the best thing we as a community can do is not think about it too much. Let it sink into the back of our conciousness as a cool thing that will eventually come out but that se shouldn’t get too excited about. Thats what ive been doing. I believe that they will eventually pull the trigger and release it, but i’m happy with it being a pleasant surprise when it eventually happens.
The initial fanbases of relatively unknown studios are usually positive people who see value even in unfinished things and give constructive feedback to see things grow. Once you grow too large you also get the attention of those who didn't see the process, who want everything to be perfect and available right now. I knew the making of Hollow Knight wasn't a cakewalk but I didn't know it was this rough. It is completely understandable that they take their sweet time, even if I don't like it. I only heard about the game years after release and I don't know if would have bothered back in 2017. It is now my favourite game, I have learned a lot about the light and dark sides of game development, and I wish I had the skills, discipline and courage to undertake such a project or even a smaller one.
I might add that we tend to forget how long creative endeavors take, we're bombarded every day with releases, new things and some companies are able to do that, so, I think, we start taking for granted that, and we start feeling betrayed because of the absence or delay of something we're looking forward too. I love Hollow Knight, but gladly I never felt pressured to join the voices of the people asking for, I have a huge backlog of good games to play and If not, I'm busy. Do it like that and when it comes out you'll enjoy it. Don't think about it, just do other stuff meanwhile, that won't change the fact that they're doing it.
The reason they're taking so long is because they've actually been reworking 'silksong' into 'Return of the Primal Aspids - the Primal Aspid-ening'. An insider source told me that every single character had to be redesigned into a primal aspid, including the player character.
I agree, and then when it comes out and people complain it's not SO GOOD that it gives them luscious locks and abs and a million dollars in their bank account, I'm going to clown on them so hard
In the beginning if the video, I wasn't confident you were going to make good points. The recap and particularly the brief "why Hollow Knight was successful" bit, that was very simplistic and missed a lot, had me skeptical, but your came to explain very interesting insights into indie development that I had never thought of. Thanks for the vid.
Super important takeaways you gave, and it’s horrible to hear how dehumanized authors and devs have felt thanks to their fanbase. If you have the urge to yell at a creator for a sequel, shut up and go touch grass
I feel like the recently-released UFO 50 is one of these types of projects that was just released. Literally 50 entire games that have been worked on for around a decade, worked on by ~5 people (most of whom worked on Spelunky, which assumedly helped cover finances). When these sorts of games come out, they typically are huge hits
Personally I don't really mind when games I anticipate take longer, I just know that usually the extra waiting is worth it for a more fledged out product. I want to play Silksong but I also want it to be as great as Cherry wants it to be. I also trust their vision and I think the more they interact with outside influences like fans the more of a mess it will cause for the game.
Great video! I've always been frustrated with people pressuring games into coming out. The truth is, the programming process is never smooth and never clear, and things always change / come up. The expectation to live up to Hollow Knight is insane, and people have to be patient if they want the best and biggest game possible.
This video was so good! It really made me understand the position the fanbase and the expectations have put Team Cherry in, and I am really happy they are going forward with Silksong. I am not sure I would in their place. I swear I will not blame any flaws of the game on them, because they deserve only respect for their hard work, no matter how succesfull or not their games are. However, I'm sure Silksong will be great, whenever it comes out. Thank you again for the well put together and informative video.
People who keep complaining about Team Cherry not communicating have clearly never worked in a creative environment. As an artist, talking to expecting fans is DRAINING. It's destructing, tiresome, and taking a lot of time you could've spent working because phrasing messages for thousands and millions of fans is very pressuring. In other words, they might not communicate simply because it would mess with their artistic flow - it happens to passionate people - and we all know they're extremely passionate and inspired because of how much they gave us despite promising much less initially. Just chill, please.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes SO MUCH THIS I'm an artist myself and the expectation and the longer one takes, the harder it is to give updates because of feeling bad about it taking so long and sometimes that just spirals
I have worked in the creative environment and all I can say is, stop over exaggerating. What the fans expect isn't a detailed update log or anything close to that. Just something like "Hey, we're still working on the game and we don't know when it'll release, it'll be awesome when it does and thanks for the continued support." See how easy that was? Didn't even take 30 seconds yet it takes them 5 years. Crowsworn and Katana Zero both sometimes release a screenshot as a form of communication. This woudn't have happened in the first place if TC just communicated a bit. The backlash is deserved.
Hollow Knight is my favourite game of all time. Silksong has been in my steam wishlist since 2019. And honestly, with all the exitement I have for Silksong, Im willing to wait however long it takes. I have plenty of stuff to do and play besides Silksong, so when Team Cherry (eventually) ships it, I will preorder it and enjoy it as much as I did the original Hollow Knight. I think the current world full of deadlines and milestones is fucked up and Im just following a simple philosophy: “I will not expect anything from anyone, so please don’t anyone expect anything from me”. Making anything, be it a game, or your work duties, or a personal project, under pressure is only a demotivator in my eyes.
Love the video, really nicely done. Thank you for giving wider perspective, hope it will help in calming down the fans. I was hesitating to click the video, thought it's useless piece farming silksong topic. But it turned out to be insightful and enjoyable. :)
"Today is November 3rd, 2024 This is Araraura, your host for today, bringing you your daily Silksong news. There has been no news to report for Silksong today. This has been your daily news for Silksong for today, November 3rd, 2024..."
My only problem is that nobody forced them to give the initial release date they said. The fact that it's as late as it is without even a second trailer, the least they could do is say something.
@ imagine being so loyal to a studio that doesn’t know or care about you, that the slightest bit of criticism from a random fan gets you upset enough to reply like an asshole.
Wdym, we got a showcase and a trailer what else do you want? And btw that trailer didn't have a release date but then afterwards Microsoft said "everything you'll see today is coming out within the next 12 months" and on a tweet thay clarified they meant it about EVERYTHING, but even then, disregard everything I've said, god forbid they do whatever they want with their game that you haven't yet payed for
@@matiaspereyra9392 I’ll never understand why there are people who get so upset at the most lightweight criticism. All I said was I wish they would give an update on the game that was supposed to come out 3 years ago calm the fuck down bro.
Someone having a similar experience was robtop (at least of what I can remember). The Geometry Dash community waited roughly 7 years for a new update, and he stated he felt that because it kept delaying, fans were expecting more, so he added more stuff, and the update was delayed again. I also think communication is an important thing. While it is of course Team Cherry's choice what to do with their game, I think it would have way more positive than negative aspects if they did some kind of "devlog" or such, and communicated openly with their fanbase through a discord or so. Occasional signs that the game studio is alive is good, but I think a few screenshots would not hurt either. And it would keep some fans satisfied, because they can see that something is happening, not just hear it. And there will always be the people who want the game out asap, but I think a majority would be satisfied with occasional updates and a few screenshots of areas, or NPCs, or anything really
Let them cook!! It's funny that those guys are true creators, won't ship a game every few years for money, instead they're like "oh wow Hollow Knight was so successful, it means we got infinite money to create the best sequel ever, so many ideas to put into it, let's do this"
The rude silksong fans really need to realize that Team Cherry isn’t remaining quiet because “they’re greedy” or “they’re evil”. The reason is the fans themselves. Even if Cherry put out a little newsletter like the fans “want”, they would still find ways to complain. By harassing people online, it’s no wonder Team Cherry doesn’t want to interact with them.
People find ways to complain about literally anything. That does not mean it isn’t something the vast majority of the community would genuinely appreciate. If team cherry doesn’t want to say anything that’s their prerogative, and they’re far from greedy or evil for doing so. But toxic fans are by no means unique to the hk/silksong fandom, there’s toxicity in every community and the developers of most things share information despite it.
Bro people were fine for the 2 years after the initial release date. They only started getting toxic after year 3 of complete radio silence, and we're on year 6 now. Team Cherry and their complete failure of PR is the direct cause of the toxicity you see now, not the other way around.
@@Cr3zant said as if 2023 wasn't one of the more significant years for silksong news. it's still very bad they barely ever say anything, but come on man
@@squiddu there was no silksong news in 2023 aside from "yeah the xbox release date was actually unconfirmed" (which was said waayyyy too late imo), are you talking about the 2022 trailer? it's been radio silent for over 2 years now
as a solo game dev, I really hate when people gets angry at devs for delaying game release. I've never got upset if the game release date gets delayed, but gets even more excited because being delayed means they're trying to polish and make it even better, pushing themselves more and more. why don't we be more patient and cheer them up? so all the voices we send them becomes their energy, passion, and motivation. they know what they're doing more than we do.
That intro story about Hollow Knight's production, marketing, and release already answers the big question a lot. Amazing phrasing! It also makes me excited for how they're going to reveal this game, when it happens.
People should be grateful in a way. Too many games that become really hyped up often fail to meet expectations because developers out of fear of disappointing fans say too much about what they want to do when it is not necessarily what they can or will do. The most toxic of the Hollow Knight community will still be mad when it eventually does come out because they deluded themselves into believing the game will be ginormous, insanely detailed, or perfect, but as long as the devs stay tight lipped about it and don’t make uncertain promises, they will make a good game that is quality tested instead of being rushed or unpolished. Look at games like Cyberpunk 2077 or No Man’s Sky, they both have passionate developers who have continued to build upon the games beyond their release, but both devs had a lot of bad pr at launch because of the chatting about all the kinds of features that sounds nice conceptually but were much harder to implement properly. Now look at developers like Rockstar and Valve, what do they have in common? You guessed it! They are both allergic to releasing video games! They have only been becoming more and more slow in development never mind announcing new stuff. However, they both share the trait of being pretty much completely silent about stuff unless they actively are trying to let people know with trailers and whatnot. I am pretty sure, the people who work at Valve signed a contract to never even think telling anybody anything they know about Half-life 3 or else they would get put into a torture chamber. And Jesus Christ, even though gta 6 was wanted for nearly a decade, only lunatics genuinely believed that gta 6’s map was going to have every gta map combined.
Valve isn't anywhere close to this bro. Valve is allergic to releasing games because they have the infinite money glitch with Steam and have fostered a work culture where games are only made when three factors are met. 1. That someone has an idea for a game. 2. They manage to garner enough support from other devs to actually set up a team to make said game. and 3. Said game doesn't blow up during development. They're able to do this because they're not a game company, they're a storefront that sometimes releases tech demos to draw more people to their store. And Half-life 3 is literally dead, it's not being developed, we have leaks that show what the game would've been and that too much time has passed and no one is working on it anymore since it can never meet either fans or devs expectations.
@@Cr3zant half life 3 is literally being developed, its in every counter strike and deadlock update. they released a game in pre alpha state that has 5 times the active players daily than hollow knight ever had. they released half life alyx in 2019 and aperture desk job (a short game) in 2022. i dont think you have any idea how valve works but whatever you said clearly shows you dont know what you are talking about
The only reason I ever got Hollow Knight was because I had $15 on switch and planned on buying undertale. I saw Hollow Knight for the same price and knew nothing about it. I bought Hollow Knight instead. I have no idea why. Probably the best choice with my money I have ever made.
Great video! I loved how you brought up examples of other indie games and the devs experience making sequels. I believe in team cherry! Perhaps they are simply waiting for the switch 2 to release next year as they know a large part of their community exists on switch. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see! ^^
Welp, why devs are afraid to talk with le community about "when release"? - because more times than not community devolves into a mass of screeching apes when confronted with the reality that things take time, besides just the well known fear about commitment anyone faces: you have a deadline and you are get more and more shidded the closer to it you are
This was such a nice, measured video. I've never quite understood why people are so mad and desperate for Silksong when before Hollow Knight came out, nobody gave a shit about this team. We're not looking at decades of pedigree from a 100 man outfit that is listed in the stock market, we're looking at artists working at (hopefully) sustainable pace for themselves. I hope more people realise that there's nothing Team Cherry can actually say at this point to explain why they jumped the gun with the Silksong demo and release announcement without it resulting in more backlash, and just chill. I also frankly would *prefer* Team Cherry not even look at the discourse because Silksong is not a Kickstarted game. It's a game being developed with funds from the sales of their previous game. They're developing Silksong essentially with their own money. People acting like their emotional investment in Hollow Knight makes them Team Cherry shareholders.
They already missed one release date that they only gave because XBOX made them. They won’t make another until the are 100% sure they can meet it. I’d say we’ll probably get a release date as soon as the game is 100% done and physical copies start being manufactured. Even if the game releases before those physical copies are ready for market.
Man, I made a video about this, but damn, your video is almost a documentary 😂 I really liked how you used other indie game devs stories as a possible explanation on why Team Cherry remains silent about Silksong, it makes a lot of sense. The gaming community has become so toxic... Also, I would say they might not be sharing anything because of NDA stuff. Silksong is a much bigger game than the original Hollow Knight was before its release. It's a much more "high-stakes" situation, so the contracts with distributors must be different now, you know?
I myself refuse to beliave Silksong will come out this year. Next year even. My only expectation for Silksong is the fact that it's going to release. Silksong needs more time if the developers say so, and what the community is doing, is basically puting pressure on Team Cherry. People want something about Silksong, because Team Cherry had been absouletley silent and didn't say anything. But they keep working on the game! Some games take 12 years to develop, and did those games became a meme cause it will never realease? No! I wouldn't rise my expectations for Silksong, because Silksong is not finished! We need to wait, we need to be patient! WE NEED TO STOP PUTTING PRESSURE ON TEAM CHERRY! They are working on the game, so it will eventually come out! Not tommorow, not this month, not this year, but it will! Silksong is been in develpment for only six years! Six years is not that much! If the fans contenue to put pressure on Team Cherry, yeah the game will take longer to come out! People raise expectations, Team Cherry wants to get those expectations, but while they do it, people rise even more expectations! Putting pressure on team Cherry is not speeding up the process, it only makes it worse! IT'S FINE, if Team Cherry don't give us anything, it's their vision! But even if you could say that you wanna know something about the game, again Siksong is been in develpment for six years only! It would be a diffrent case if it was 16 years in development, but it's not! Team Cherry needs time if they say so! TEAM CHERRY IS WORKING ON IT, LET IT COOK! You're making everything worse, you're not speeding up the process, again you're only making it worse! We need to give Team Cherry time otherwise there won't be a game! I hope that people willl start understanding that, what they are doing, is making things worse. More and more people like this, lost faith in Silksong ever coming out, so less and less people will be making everything worse. be patient, and don't put Team Cherry into pressure -To all impatient people in Hollow Knight community
This video is needed. There's a small minority of the the hollow knight community that could hopefully learn from this video. I say small cause most of yall are awesome and waiting respectfully. I think the silksong 🤡 is funny to a point but some people are taking it to far.
Sorry, love that game too, but that whole soundtrack that he was playing was still from hollow knight, gimme a minute to find the exact theme Yup, it’s just city of tears ost 👍
I had the video in the background while working and loved listening to it ! When it ended i went to your channel to see more of your content and i was shocked by your sub count, you deserve 10x more !
I'm perfectly fine with how team cherry wants to do things. It's their game and they gave us so much content for a lower than average price. They can take as long as they need and want.
Agreed. I'm perfectly fine with them taking their time and deciding on zero communication. Anything they say outside of a release date will be met with anger, so saying nothing is the best thing they can do
@@Abby-ug4xcIf they hadn't gone literally zero contact for 5 straight years they wouldn't have to worry about being met with anger. JS it's weird to not even put out extremely sparse updates that you're even working on a game that's this anticipated. Not even saying it's disrespectful or inconsiderate or anything, obviously the fans aren't owed anything. It's just kinda weird
@@machinegirl03 There have been sparse updates though. Their PR guy or whoever said they're still working on it Outside of that, there's nothing more to say until there's a release date "they wouldn't have to worry about being met with anger" jfc fans are crazy entitled
Isn't Team like main 3 people? ( or at least from what I have seen and somewhat mentioned in your video, I might check the credits again cuz I have forgotten since then ) Like I would imagine that if they are trying to make a game that has an expectation to stand next to it's previous title, and that seems pretty challenging, especially with the level of excitement people have.. I don't follow hollow knight much, I played it and it was really good! For me the next game gets out when it's gets out. Although I can understand that the wait for the next game is long and grueling for some people, I mean i have seen some stuff while browsing stuff around the game.
That's one of the most level headed analysis about indie game, expectations and entitlement in an increasingly consumerist world. Nintendo is another "victim" of this behavior with Switch 2.
@@Troutington2If Team Cherry’s lead play tester confirms that Silksong is so much better than Hollow Knight he’s gotta have some degree of credibility, I suppose
@@lucasmunozjetmore761 disappointing not because it is bad, but because peoples hopes and expectations have become so unrealistic they are bound to be disappointed
Holy shit i clicked on this, expecting it to be by some TH-camr with idk 350k, 200k subs, watched it and wanted to leave a comment about how high quality it was for the subs, then saw you have 2.95k. WHAT THE HELL, GIVE THIS GUY SUBS. Narration was clear and nice, video was well paced and edited, content was informative, it was a really good video, I cannot believe how underrated you are, may the algorithm bless you, holy shit.
Waiting for Silksong is easy. Imagine waiting for a fan game that looks and sounds so fucking good, is being developed for over 15 years, has no demo (and will never have), dev said that if the game has an official sequel, the fan game will be cancelled, and you can't even complain to the dev about it because it's a fan project; at the end of the day the dev doesn't owe YOU anything. He's not making it for YOU, he's making it for HIMSELF!
I’m not a hollow knight fan, but I want to get into the story and play it, which I am starting. For fans of the game, think of this if they keep improving and adding to this sequel, imagine how big of an indie game it could become, possibly a game of the year contender because of how much content will be shoved into this sequel team cherry seems to be taking there time to perfect 👌 this game
That is a downright shame to hear that some fans have exhibited toxic behavior towards the indie devs that have produced games that these fans supposedly love. What is wrong with people out there? If you love a product that an artist makes and you want to support that artist so they can produce more of what you've enjoyed, why would you go the other way and harass the artist or go to the extreme length of issuing death threats? Just horrid... In any case, terrific work, Indie Game Oasis. I thank you for the reminder of the significant impact Nintendo had on Team Cherry by shining their Treehouse Live spotlight onto Hollow Knight. As a lifelong Nintendo fan, I know I got excited when I saw that happen during the E3s of yesteryear, but I am not sure whether it occurred to me at the time the magnitude of how many other people out there that do not regularly tune into Nintendo's announcements tuned in for that indie showcase and got super excited for Hollow Knight and Silksong as well. At the same time, I find it interesting that you pointed to the impact Nintendo had on Team Cherry's sales and growth, but you did not bring up the fact that perhaps Team Cherry's development of Silksong has also been impacted by the inevitable shift towards the Switch's successor, and that because their development had already reached a certain timeline, it is entirely possible that they are having to spend time reconfiguring the game to run on whatever the Switch's successor will be called versus focusing on the original Switch. It is even entirely possible given Hollow Knight's incredible success on Switch that maybe Team Cherry is preparing to include Silksong as part of the "Switch 2's" launch window. (Then again, I know the "Switch 2" is heavily rumored to be backwards compatible, so this could be a moot point...but we don't know enough information about either yet...) One way or another, for as much as I look forward to playing Silksong, I am fine with waiting until the game is good and ready. I do not expect it to be "better" than Hollow Knight per se, but I do expect the world to be larger and full of new surprises. Besides - the Switch is certainly not hurting for Metroidvanias these days. There are many others including Nintendo's own Metroid Dread and other indie darlings like Ori and the Will of the Wisps that are worth players' time.
No way Silksong has any sort of relationship going on with Nintendo bro. They at least had a contract with Xbox for day one gamepass last year, and if they care at all about maintaining their business relations turning around and going to Nintendo is gonna piss Microsoft off, and Nintendo would never allow a game being offered for free on another system to be one of their crown launch window jewels, especially for something as anticipated as Ounce.
watched tons of "Why Silksong Is Taking So Long" type of videos, this is the best one without a doubt. the amount of efforts put in this vid is wild, keep it up.
@@kristoffersonsilverfox3923 This is actually one of the reasons why Rain World gained such a following despite it's less than ideal first reviews. It was famous for having one of the most up-to-date and in depth dev logs in a modern indie game as every decision made by the devs was clearly explained on a nearly daily basis during the development of the base game.
@@yarn2350 Exactly my thoughts! It is awesome seeing the evolution of a fun little side project into my #1 favorite game, and I'm sure it'd be even more awesome seeing something similar with something as big as Silksong
One thing to add as well. The manga series bleach written by Tite Kubo is in a similar place the ice and fire series. People wanted for the bleach series to continue and pressed and pressed Tite much that during the end of the manga, he didn’t really care to much and just wanted it to be over with. Now, over a decade after the manga finished, we’ve only gotten about 5 different light novels and a single manga chapter that act as a continuation onto the story
unlike undertale, team cherry is not making any attempts to communicate, which is what most people are pretty upset with since- to them- they got a trailer and a demo of silksong back in early 2019. Come feb 2025, it'll be officially 6 years since they advertised their game and sold merch for a game they haven't released. in june 2022, xbox announced a rough release date for the game- claiming it'd release 'within a year'. (latest assumed was june 2023.) only to have Leth make the infamous in may 2023 ('hey gang...') post, stating that it's not coming out yet on the previously assumed release date, and gave us a vague 'you'll know when it'll come out when you start seeing more updates'. It has now been a year and nearing five months since the closest thing we ever had to a 'release date', and still complete radio silence. and team cherry haven't made a noise on their media feeds since 2019. If they bothered to just say something maybe once every few months, maybe fans wouldn't be so rabid or upset. What did they expect announcing a game nearly SIX YEARS in advanced, and then not say anything in between the wait?
Please don't be disingenuous. If you really meant this (and actually watched this video), then you'd realize/acknowledge that we get updates at least a few times a year
It reminds me a lot of what's happening with Playdead's Game 3 where it's become way bigger and ambitious than the devs have anticipated and are staying mostly quiet as to hopefully not disappoint their fans by building too much hype for the game
Over 7 years for a 2D game does not bode well for a sequel. Either the vision gets lost along the way or the game is actually over designed to the point it loses any real charm or originality and the longer they take, the less opportunities there are for unique creativity when you give everyone else nearly a decade to do all the things you were going to do first.
As a writer, scopecreep is a very powerful phenomenon. At first, my fantasy story was very bare-boned, and I had trouble coming up with ideas for the plot and setting. Now it's over 900 pages and continuing to grow in complexity and detail, and I desperately need to cut out a lot of content.
Dude this is such an important video, thanks for uploading it. I think it shifted my own perspective, and ive never been a hardcore die-for-it fan. Actually, i bought hollow knight this year, and im just finishing the dlcs right now, so i havent yet had to wait for years in silence, but ive always thought to myself that it was great that team cherry took their time, just so that they can produce an even better game than the previous one. Your words hit hard though, and as a creator myself (and FAR from a famous one, at that), i think that even this opinion is wrong. We should not expect silksong to be better, in fact we shouldnt expect anything out of it, even thought thats impossible. We should be glad that hollow knight exists. Striving for something better is a really fucked up and common theme nowadays. BE GLAD FOR WHAT WE ALREADY GOT Amazing video !
They're refusing to engage with the community because much of it is toxic, they are millionaires, and once the game is out it'll be great and sell well and no one will care about the delays. They, quite honestly, sound like self-realized and emotionally mature individuals.
Especially when you note they do go to lil cons n stuff to play other indies and the like. They're passionate but they're (rightfully) not comfortable engaging with the community when they have no clear release + the hype is scary. TC releasing new merch instigates tons of discussion and discourse, I feel them even tweeting "Hello!" will activate so much manic excitement that it absolutely is best they just keep to themselves. It's probably more healthy for them and I hope they're not busting their mental health or anything. Hopefully the environment is relaxed and they're just having a blast going "Oo, what about this, or what if we added this to the map! What about an ability that does this??" I will wait another 6 years if it means they get to make EVERY piece of Silksong and feel achieved in doing so ^^
i'm an indie developer and i have this same problem. i stg over a year ago i had rough-draft-developed a game, and was telling people "it will be done next week." i said that week after week. and in my heart and mind, i knew that i *could* release it in a week. but each week that past, i never released it. sometimes i would spend days changing a button or animation detail. even now, i think, "i must be able to release this by next month." but all this delay kills the soul. i don't care about anything anymore. i barely want to talk about my project (i'm embarrassed) and i regret ever starting.
When games are ever more expensive and much less good these days plus all the dei woke feminist bullsh*t there really aren't. Unless you own alot of good older games. Fortunately I do but still..
@@viper-the-great Do you watch Asmongold or The Critical Drinker? Not trying to be rude or start drama or anything, just curious cause those communities say things like this really often and I get really confused.
@@viper-the-greatwhat is the dei woke feminist bullsh*t that you are talking about? I hear a lot of people complaining about it but I don't really understand what it means to people and nobody that I have asked will explain. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just don't know what you mean and want to know.
If you don't know what he's talking about, you honestly have no clue about what's currently happening in the game industry, maybe go find out?@@thegoldenraysoftheglorious1180
27:53 - the fact i actually watched this when it first premiered and when you put it in this video, finally clicked the message together. Honestly, I can totally understand the reason why. I will just maybe avoid speaking about and wait when they feel ready. No constant asking, pestering but just a check in once in a while and maybe see about other games they could have made.
Guys the real reason silksong isnt out is because teamcherry fell in another rabbit hole of a zote game
Zoteboat in five years 🔥
I have inside information. It'll be called Clumsy Knight: Song of Zote
@skelet8337 100% worth
Basically a religious experience
We need a Zote Song game and the gameplay is where you start off super weak and collect adjectives instead of charms.
@@BoleDaPole This could be some simple mobile game. Would be good for advertisement
Well done on the deep dive. 2:38 - The three of us knew each other a long time and I quit my job to work on the game full time.
Hey David, any updates? :-)
Thank you for the kind words David, and for making such a wonderful game!
@@gammashift shut the heck up
Regardless of anything I hope you guys are having fun working on the game
@@gammashift 24:05
I know you mean well and you're being extremely polite, but the expectation of an update whenever contact is made is extremely intimidating to smaller creators.
Tomorrow for SURE‼️
Is he the daily silksong news guy?? He sounds very familiar
Sure Buddy, now take your medicine
@@NagyPazPOV my grandchildren in 2099 when i tell them silksong's gonna be out any day now
YEAH TOMORROW
LETS GO THATS NOW
28:35 just want to note that they couldn't retire after HK because Hornet was part of the kickstarter campaign. They are literally still on the kickstarter arc which is crazy to think about.
They could just hire a few guys to design a character or just ship one out in a month or two and call it a day.
yeah but they couldve just added hornet as a playable character or having a tiny side quest as hornet and retire but they decided to make an entirely new game instead
@@diegoalanis6283 Yep, that's all true but I wanted to clarify that the end of HK didn't mean the end of their obligations like the video made it sound
@@Tubeytime Technically, they're not obliged to produce anything with playable Hornet; they just have to make a good faith effort, and spend the Kickstarter funds on legitimate project expenses (which includes feeding the programmers). Considering that they spent through the Kickstarter funds and then some even before Hollow Knight itself released, they have satisfied their Kickstarter obligations.
Of course, there's nothing stopping them from doing more - and no reason they shouldn't take their legally non-binding commitment seriously - but them doing so is because they want to, not because they're required to.
@@rmsgrey You're wrong. "Technically" they MUST meet their exact promises for every tier goal reached. Failure to do so is a crime called fraud. In fact people have made the original kickstarter item, but failed to deliver on bonus goals, and were then hit by a lawsuit that they lost. Kickstarter isn't a donation site. It's a public funding site with rules and anyone using it is subject to the law. It is a legally binding agreement. They DID have to make a playable Hornet or they would be at risk of a lawsuit that held solid ground against them.
Silksong'll come out some day, and it'll probably be great.
Yes there's the creator's trap of never ending up releasing anything. But For my money, as a creative, I'm very happy to see people being able to work on their things in the way that they want. Team Cherry has been granted that opportunity, and that's fantastic.
Despite the sometimes unfair levels of pressure some people put on them, knowingly or not, I hope they're having fun.
I'm excited to see what will come of it, whenever it releases. I have enough games to play in the meantime.
Yes, that is the healthiest attitude. And it's not like there's a shortage of amazing metroidvanias to play at the moment.
Same dawg.
In my opinion, they should only release Silksong once their studio is on the verge of collapsing. They should keep improving, expanding, and iterating on the game so that whenever it finally does come out, it is as good as it can possibly be.
It will release today for shaw
This is basically how I feel about it, they can take whatever time they need, they already made ONE genre defining game, let these mfs cook however long they want.
Getting mad and accusing the devs of different things is beyond stupid but the general dissatisfaction with their communication is understandable. They released trailers, gameplay, had a demo, appeared on gamepass and advertising. Set so much up like they were ready to release soon then just . . .
Stopped
The issue isn’t the silence, but the massive wave of hype they created only to drop off the face of the earth
What do you even want from them. They've said it over and over again, they're working on it. They clearly don't want to give more screenshots or footage as to not spoil the game, so there's not much they can really give us besides reassuring us that the project is still alive. At this point the hollow knight community would only be satisfied if they just give a release date, which clearly that's not gonna happen right now.
Yes, the issue IS the silence.
@@mrholeio3060 Cool, they haven't thought. They haven't made a peep since 2019.
@penultimania4295 They literally have? Did you forget all of what they said in 2023, and also they've literally said that THIS YEAR. I don't think you've looked hard enough. They said something like 2 months ago at a convention and EVERYBODY ignored it.
@@mrholeio3060 Yeah I wonder why they ignored it. Maybe they should do an official fcking update on Steam or any of the official channels? Bunch of scrubs.
I heavily respect the fact that they don’t want to interact with ravenous fans since it’s become very clear as of late how toxic the gaming community at large is towards developers, but part of me wishes team cherry took the Toby Fox approach and wrote tiny newsletters that gave us an idea of where they were at with development without actually showing too much from the game.
Agreed.
Yeah, that's completely true. Also, they probably told Leth not to say anything, and I respect that just because of the same thing. Some people are so toxic, if Leth responded there would be hundreds insulting him, and he has nothing to do with the delays.
It’s crazy to me how many people are so stupid, i just don’t get it, why would you give developers special treatment
Idk about this take tbh. The reason the fans are so pissed is because of team cherry’s communication style. A few updates every year would really go a long way, just so that people know that the game is actually gonna come out eventually and will be good. Obviously there are ‘ravenous’ fans that take it too far, but every fan base has those, and they should be shamed
@@Cucardo This still redounds to Team Cherry's fault though, because that environment was created by their silence. Granted those people will always exist and trolls are ever present. But they have definitely exacerbated those problems.
Silksong will unlock once you reach 116% completion in Hollow knight.
Why am i not able to play it then😢
One more DLC
My guess… they are scared of it not living up to hollow knight. They just don’t want to disappoint
yeah, i have always been very worried that when Silksong releases, people will be mad because its not perfect or its not exactly the game they were expecting.
That definitely seemed to be the case with Valve and Half Life. But by not doing anything, disappointment is guaranteed.
@@Troutington2 expecting perfection is bound to lead to disappointment, expect a decent game I don't think they'll be disappointed.
@@Troutington2 Sure but people wouldnt be as mad if we got updates and actual expectations set, instead of relying on copium.
If that's the case then I'll be surely disappointed lol
I'm sick of game studios pumping out sequels right after getting success with a game. Them actually taking rhe time they need to make it exactly how they like is refreshjng as fuck. Sad that it I can't play it yet, but if we want a game as good and most likely wildly better than hollow knight, we need to let them cook.
Fnaf needs to learn a thing or two about pumping out sequels.
Except at this point you don't even know if it's coming genius. They've been silent for 5 years.
@@penultimania4295 you're getting short with people over a video game, son
@@WardenLoveless interesting you assume I'm a 'son', son.
@penultimania4295 It's the royal beastie boys "Son". If I had called you lass it would have sounded like a pirate.
I am going to choose my words more carefully going forward when assessing indie-developed projects, too often I end up talking about them with the same critical tone I use for the big-budget super-studios with comparatively infinite resources.
Also I know all too well the pain of waiting on The Winds of Winter, haha. I'm resigned to the delay, I no longer expect it to release during GRRM's lifetime, and if it does, well, it'll be like Christmas morning, whatever day it is!
Happy to hear that! That's pretty much why I decided to make this video in the first place.
I'm pretty sure GRRM isn't actually writing anymore
@@esoessify He's supposedly very far into the manuscript. At least, according to him.
@@insertjokehere212 It's been like that forever, if he couldn't have finished during quarantine where he was locked inside his home, I doubt he's ever going to finish it, especially with his reaction to HotD, I'm pretty sure he's just given up at this point
I'm not angry at the devs or anything, because I've done software engineering. I understand scope creep very well, it's why one of the hardest parts of development isn't the actual coding - it's figuring out how much you can do within a given time frame. Team Cherry being an indie studio means they thankfully don't have to answer to big investors, but it also means they aren't required to set a deadline for themselves either the way other software developers would have. It means if they decide on a whim "Hey, why don't we add this to the game;" they can just continue to put off the release. I am almost certain that there is some form of the game that is effectively "complete" that they could release, but their standards are so high they don't want to.
I'm certain the final release will be amazing, but the biggest issue is the total lack of communication. They don't need to engage with fans about when it'll be done - just show them it's being worked on.
I disagree, and as the video said- they can give an estimate, but then overshoot it, and have even more anger directed at them. The more you engage with fans, the more they feel entitled to engage back. I'm sure Team Cherry have received all sorts of nasty harassment and death threats because that's how people allow themselves to act online, especially to public figures.
No communication = less anxiety & harassment. I'm glad they're keeping quiet for now.
Fans are not entitled to communication.
@@Abby-ug4xcBut communication =/= giving an estimate. They could at the very least put out an annual statement literally just confirming they're still working on it. It doesn't even have to include any sneak peeks. Even if everyone already knows they're working on it. Just give people something.
@@Abby-ug4xc I would agree if Silksong weren't technically also a backer promise. People invested money, they deserve some amount of compensation.
@@machinegirl0324:05 should explain why they don't.
Like... _you_ might not expect that, but of the countless numbers of fans at least several hundred _will._
Edit: Also, they have Leth give confirmation that they're working on it. The video even mentions that.
@@ApexGale They promised a second playable character, not a huge sequel. They couldn't make hornet playable because she's too tall. So they could've used Zote, or another character. A sequel is way more than the backer promise
I truly hope Team Cherry is doing well
Not even a game like this can remain a passion project for this long. It will sooner or later turn into something negative in your life I think. That's my 2 cents but I might be totally wrong. Maybe they took some years off at some point, who knows? I wish them well too.
@@nicolasjonasson4820 This is a normal development timeline.
I loved even during the apple keynote there was people spamming for Silksong news 😭
Yooo that's the solution, take all the spam and put it over there
@@Tubeytime …then they release silksong as an apple arcade exclusive 🐸
@@Kellestial not 'Team Apple' 💀
You know i just made a comment that boils down to "c'mon guys, why do you care so much, your love for the franchise is not going to lessen if you stop stressing about not getting coms" but this one is pretty funny, i endorse this behavior if we're doing it to apple
@@matiaspereyra9392hahahahaha
Video was well paced, well edited and informative. The voice commentary was clear and articulate. Very high quality for someone with only a few thousand subscribers man your underrated.
Thank you
So basically, stop talking about Silksong or even forget about the game. Just wait for however many years it'll take for them to release it. I'm sure the moment they say a release date, we will all play through Hollow Knight one more time and start the journey of Silksong.
I feel like I’m the one silksong fan not mad at team cherry for not communicating. They are professional developers, and I’m happy that they are developing their next game. I don’t need updates on development or any sort of status update.
you are not the only one. i trust that Team Cherry will make the game the best it can be.
Same, if they managed to make hollow knight with much less time, money and experience, I'm sure they'll deliver with silksong
While i don't like the fact, i am not mad. Thier game, thier reputation. They're still my favourite game devs.
Honestly I couldn't care less, it'll come out eventually.
Same. When I was a kid games just popped out when ready and I'd get to enjoy them without knowing a single thing about them, and that was great.
you know, feature creeping makes so much sense, I should have realized it.
Mf I counted already 6 different features they're adding in Silksong that weren't in the previous game or were but now are greatly improved
wow this video is very insightful, i hope more hollow knight fans can see this vid, it definetly changed the way i looked at this situation. Thanks for this great look into other situations, and how this seems like nothing particularly new for the indie gaming industry. Have a great rest of your day/night!
It is funny to spam Silksong at games showcases, but I have never understood people being actually angry over it's development time. We live in a time where there are so many amazing games coming out every year, big and small. So many that I probably will never be able to play all the ones I want to before I die. Now I am not 13 with all the time in world so it's easy for me to say that, but even so.
Because it's been nearly a decade and a game of HK quality and length does not take this long. Not to mention they hyped everyone up then just went silent for years.
@@mentholnewport Sounds like you didn't watch the video, because it explained very well why it and other similar games take so long.
There is zero legitimate reason to be angry with them. They're humans working on a passion project and don't owe fans anything lol
Yeah exactly. There are so many amazing games, even lots of great metdroidvanias released in the past few years. Far too many to play in a lifetime. Tunic is a great one surprisingly few people know about
we r not agry because of the time the game is taking, we r mad because there is 0 communication with the fan base. It s silence radio, 0 informations for years
@@25andromede Wdym zero information. Their PR guy gives occasional updates
But there are other ppl saying zero would be better than just a little bit, so no one is going to be universally happy until tit's released
I think an interesting similar situation is the release of Geometry Dash 2.2. It took almost 7 years to come out with just an update, and it's been almost a year now, but the developer (Robtop Games) also spoke about all the pressure when the update kept taking longer and longer.
by the time he dropped the update game died out and i had no interest in playing it. cus i grew up 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ also he only dropped one level. kinda underwhelming
the update actually had loads of content, and the game did not die out lol. the community is literally bigger than ever. the update included a bunch of new platformer levels (an entire new way to play the game), a new gamemode, and the changes to the editor were huge
@ 😂😂😂😂🤦🏽♂️😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I have no issue with the time they’re putting in. But why declare its release when it’s so early in development? Why post a trailer when it’s still years before we even get a demo? That was their biggest mistake because those two tools are generally used to hype up a game SOON to come out. Think if we had an announcement for silksong then a year or two later we get a trailer and within the next year we have the game in our hands. Think of the hype that we would have kept. Instead it’s been dragging on for so long and overshadowing the devs, the community, and every other game that we look past because we’re just waiting for news on silksong or we only give credit to it as a “patch till silksong.”
honestly, thats producers fault, nintendo and xbox are the ones that work with having a deadline to release their games, so nintendo seeing the success of hk in switch they obviously pay team cherry to give them a demo and probably they make the trailer for the nintendo direct, but team cherry its an independent company they dont need nintendo and xbox anymore so they just develop the game while xbox and nintendo keep making these false deadlines because they work that way
@@Hector-wj6jn Precisely. Also, let's be realistic -- is there anything Team Cherry *can* say that is not gonna result in people being *more* mad at them. The longer time goes on, the more likely people are going to react badly to any news that aren't Silksong's actual release date. For every person who says "if they only did this" there are still at least a hundred who will respond to that exact thing with vitriol and death threats and accusations of being a lying sellout.
Thing is, they kind of _had_ to announce Silksong early because of the kickstarter promise that Hornet would be playable in the original game. If they hadn't announced it, "When Silksong?" would just be replaced with "When Hornet Story?"
At least this way we can at least understand why it's taking so long.
They had to announce it because people were anticipating the DLC for Hollow Knight. If they didn't release it they would've been accused of not following their promises.
@@vanirie434 I 100% agree with this. At this point there’s nothing left for them to say. Just shut up and make the game.
You really can't level any criticism at Team Cherry at all when you understand this is only their second game, they've only beem developing games for a decade, and they are a tiny team, whereas even multibillion dollar companies like nintendo, with huge teams and resources, and over FOUR DECADES of experience in the industry, cannot competently manage a project or predict how long it will take with any degree of accuracy at all. I mean look at Tears of the Kingdom. That was a franchise they've been making games in since the 80s, and they're ALWAYS delayed REPEATEDLY, and yet every new game, they think they know what the release date will be, amd they're wrong. Again and again. That was a game where they basically already went through the exact same development cycle with BotW, and they STILL could not figure out what they were doing or how long it would take. That was a game where they already had the entire game engine pre-existing from the last game, almost the entire map pre-existing from the last game, and the majority of the assets pre-existing from the last game. And it was fuck up after fuck up, delay after delay. Again, a multi billion dollar company, four decades in the industry, and a game they had already made once, in a series they've been making and remaking since the 80s. No clue what they're doing. To wonder why Team Cherry is taking this long or saying nothing is frankly laughable.
Personally, I hate how contradicting gamers are sometimes... Like games these days have been released way too early in an unfinished state... so they are angry they didn't take the time to finish it...
Then you get devs who are so passionate about their project that they REFUSE to release anything until it is perfect. Yet, so many people are constantly rushing them.
The reason they are silent is to prevent any time expectations from arising. Once they show something, people want more. And more. And more. Until they can't keep up.
Or if they release information people will speculate and rush them further. Or people will get angry there is no release window, etc.
They are isolating themselves to nurture their project to the best state it can be in.
It's crazy, it's like these communities aren't a monolith or something. Wild.
Goomba funnel dot png
Well said!
no, as a game dev myself i do find it absolutely fucking retarded they don't have any main outlet for talking to their community in any way
this has taken a very long time and absolutely should have at least constant guarantees from a PR rep that they are still working hard to make the game as great as possible
Toby Fox has had newsletters on the development of Deltarune consistently for the past like year and a half and it has only served to healthily nurture the community's excitement while also setting boundaries and realistic expectations on what timeframes for release are.
There is literally no reason for why Team Cherry cannot do the exact same other than simply put laziness.
Yeah, every game should be Duke Nukem Forever. A delayed game is always great, they absolutely _should_ spend 10 years constantly changing and expanding the scope of the game to something a team of 2 will never be able to complete.
I think the anticipation for Silksong got to a point where it's impossible for Team Cherry to not feel the pressure to stop adding things and concentrate on releasing. Remember, they planned to release during the first half of 2023. I would not be surprised if they were in Bug-Fixing mode since then. I imagine they are way more wary when it comes to bugs (hehe) affecting the reception of the game this time around compared to when they made Hollow Knight and were unknown.
Once I've read that they are bugfixing and playtesting for months. Idk if this is just a rumor or some truht behind it.
@@le_gus001i mean that’s about how long that should take especially considering the giant size of this game and the small amount of people working on it
Another big factor is that since consoles (and Nintendo especially) make it extremely hard for indie games to maintain parity with patches due to the certification process, and since the Switch version is so important, they have to iron out as many bugs as possible before releasing it. Significantly more than if they weren't simultaneously releasing it
@@RaptieFeathers oh that's something, which I didn't knew. Thanks for the clarification on that.
there's almost 0 pressure they literally have generational wealth now. making the game is pretty much a hobby at this point.
I honestly think the best thing you can do as an indie dev to keep your community happy is having a healthy modding community. I understand there are definitely restrictions to this (console), but i still think its a very important part of a games community.
even then the community may still be unsatisfied with the devs like the fnf community was
Hollow knight's modding: Pantheon 5 with 50 immortal primal aspids
Bro didnt even watch the video
@@TheProbots yes I watched the video what i said isn’t really related but i still said it
modding community exists in HK but the community is still not happy
Even though Hollow Knight is one of my favorite games of all time, I don't mind waiting for Silksong for a couple reasons.
1) I am completely willing to wait for the amount of time needed to fix most bugs/glitches or errors in the game to make sure it has a fantastic launch
2) The creative process is slow and takes a long time to not just come up with ideas, but to then actually execute on them, creating the drawings and music, making the gameplay feel fresh with that idea, piecing that together with your whole game, and making it flow for story. Its a lot of work and Team Cherry is one of the few dev teams I have seen that actually has so much passion for what they are doing. For the interviews they have done and Matt has done, you can tell they love the work they are doing, and they want this game to be amazing. The Indie's Gamers Podcast is great because hearing his passion for TC working on their project is awesome.
My only major complaint that I think most people have is the silence, however not them just being silent, but rather preparing us for an amazing launch with game pass and showing us a cool demo back in 2019 and really hyping our expectations, only to say they had to delay to keep working on the game (which is completely fine) but then not updating the community about anything. Very few updates around holidays in their discord or one off Tweets. They have chosen to be incredibly silent after preparing us for many years of hype to then kinda just back out quietly. A lot of people say the amount of pressure they are under must be tremendous, and it absolutely is, but part of that is their own doing with the direction they took to advertise the game and give us a release window with xbox. However I do know that working under that pressure can be very difficult, or maybe they even feel none and are truly just in the zone pouring ideas out of their heads. They were infact out of money right when Hk released. They had an okay launch, got amazing marketing, and continued to update and expand the game to make it one of the best indie games to date. Now they have the time and money, which means they get to truly put their strengths to the test and deliver a beautiful project, and I cant wait to be ready to buy it day one, no matter how long it takes. Much love HK community and TC
Another thing to note is that a small studio has a team dynamic which makes it hard to fit more people to fill roles that the established team doesn't fill, and if you engage with the community, that is a whole set of roles. As a contrast, consider something like Hades 2. I'm on the discord and playing the early access, and it definitely does serve their process to use early access and engage with the fans more consistently than Team Cherry did, but despite not being a AAA studio, Supergiant Games still has more people just wrangling the community than team cherry has period, and they need that despite having a development cycle which is MUCH better than TC's for the purpose of keeping impatient fans satisfied.
Silksong will come out when Team Cherry are satisfied with what has been made.
It will be at minimum just Hollow Knight but a bit larger and with a new playable character and that is already good enough.
There are other wonderful games, metroidvania or otherwise, that can be played in the meantime.
I really, really, *really* appreciate the kindness in this discussion -- as someone who has just recently jumped into game development and seen how *painfully* slow it can be, it is so horrible to see how unknown creators go from being dark horse successes to being attacked everywhere. I caught up on some video game kickstarters I backed a few years ago and all the comments that are upset things aren't delivered on time, even with incredible communication, is so, so demoralizing.
I appreciate that, even without communication, you're out here giving people hope and able to make reasonable conclusions that don't involve death threats or hate mail. Thank you.
This was a really good video! Usually videos like this end up being kind of empty but this was some really interesting analysis!
something i wonder about the development of silksong is if it was being developed in unity like hollow knight. Because that would be another thing to put into account; the possible delay of changing engines due to unity falling from grace during it's development. So its not hard to think they would have to port the whole game over to a new engine like gadot or make their own from scratch which spawns a whole new gaggle of challenges or with a custom engine more opportunities to expand on. Changing an engine mid development is a KILLER for even AAA company titles so if team cherry had to switch off of unity you can imagine the kind of stress that can put on development.
By the time of the unity drama they were definitely already way too far into development to switch engines lol, like 4 years for an indie studio has put them too far in to just change and learn a brand new engine
it still says unity on the silksong website and it was updated after the unity stuff that happened so no that’s not the problem
Okay, and if that were the case, why wouldn't they take literally fifteen, yes, fifteen seconds to type "Due to recent events regarding Unity, we are switching engines. This will take a lot of work"? They literally have hired a social media person and all he does is make random troll remarks in the discord once a year.
@xelith6157 because they didn’t swap from unity? it literally says on their website they are still using unity and the website was updated after everything that happened with unity lol.
I sat through the entire video without pausing or skipping forward. Good job
I'm leaving after 1min. Anything I miss?
@@VeloViosyes
that's not much of an accomplishment
Holy broken attention span
@@VeloVios You just missed the release date.
Great video!
Loved the breakdown of the whole situation.
I'm part of the fans who didn't quite understand the minimal amount of communication, but still didn't mind waiting for when the game eventually comes out, it's really nice to understand it better now.
I hope this video helps at least a part of the community understand the situation better and respect the developers more.
Guys, Hollow Knight was crowdfunded on a budget of $15,000. Hollow Knight has since sold 3 million copies at prices varying from 15-25 dollars. Lowballing it, they made $45,000,000, which is a bit more than fifteen grand. They have the budget to do literally everything they couldn't afford in Hollow Knight, but that's going to take a while.
It's been said many times, but it rings true: tough as it is to admit, the odds of Silksong actually living up to people's expectations are pretty low. There's also the potential issues of there having been so much iteration on Hollow Knight's core ideas that the game will feel very different, both in terms of combat and structure of the game. Some people will like the change, but I'm very confident that at least a small portion of the fanbase, the part that's been playing with the same relatively simple movement and mechanics religiously for 7 years now, will not. I could be wrong, I hope I am, but history and human nature don't paint a 100% optimistic picture.
But don't get me wrong, I'm confident the game will be excellent-I'm simply saying that people ought to meter their expections and expect a game that likely will not be identical (or even very similar) to their experience with Hollow Knight.
I think the best thing we as a community can do is not think about it too much. Let it sink into the back of our conciousness as a cool thing that will eventually come out but that se shouldn’t get too excited about. Thats what ive been doing. I believe that they will eventually pull the trigger and release it, but i’m happy with it being a pleasant surprise when it eventually happens.
The initial fanbases of relatively unknown studios are usually positive people who see value even in unfinished things and give constructive feedback to see things grow.
Once you grow too large you also get the attention of those who didn't see the process, who want everything to be perfect and available right now.
I knew the making of Hollow Knight wasn't a cakewalk but I didn't know it was this rough. It is completely understandable that they take their sweet time, even if I don't like it.
I only heard about the game years after release and I don't know if would have bothered back in 2017.
It is now my favourite game, I have learned a lot about the light and dark sides of game development, and I wish I had the skills, discipline and courage to undertake such a project or even a smaller one.
I might add that we tend to forget how long creative endeavors take, we're bombarded every day with releases, new things and some companies are able to do that, so, I think, we start taking for granted that, and we start feeling betrayed because of the absence or delay of something we're looking forward too. I love Hollow Knight, but gladly I never felt pressured to join the voices of the people asking for, I have a huge backlog of good games to play and If not, I'm busy. Do it like that and when it comes out you'll enjoy it. Don't think about it, just do other stuff meanwhile, that won't change the fact that they're doing it.
the only thing i'll be excited for in silksong is the lack of primal aspids
The reason they're taking so long is because they've actually been reworking 'silksong' into 'Return of the Primal Aspids - the Primal Aspid-ening'. An insider source told me that every single character had to be redesigned into a primal aspid, including the player character.
They weren’t even that bad
Man I hope they take longer just so I can see the how much more the human spirit can take using the skong subReddit as a experiment
God, i love the skong sub. Makes me feel like the joker. Why so serious.
@@CarlosDiaz-fs6cv You should see the Batman Arkham subreddit
I agree, and then when it comes out and people complain it's not SO GOOD that it gives them luscious locks and abs and a million dollars in their bank account, I'm going to clown on them so hard
In the beginning if the video, I wasn't confident you were going to make good points. The recap and particularly the brief "why Hollow Knight was successful" bit, that was very simplistic and missed a lot, had me skeptical, but your came to explain very interesting insights into indie development that I had never thought of. Thanks for the vid.
Super important takeaways you gave, and it’s horrible to hear how dehumanized authors and devs have felt thanks to their fanbase. If you have the urge to yell at a creator for a sequel, shut up and go touch grass
I feel like the recently-released UFO 50 is one of these types of projects that was just released. Literally 50 entire games that have been worked on for around a decade, worked on by ~5 people (most of whom worked on Spelunky, which assumedly helped cover finances). When these sorts of games come out, they typically are huge hits
29:00 summarizes the video, in case you were wondering
Personally I don't really mind when games I anticipate take longer, I just know that usually the extra waiting is worth it for a more fledged out product. I want to play Silksong but I also want it to be as great as Cherry wants it to be. I also trust their vision and I think the more they interact with outside influences like fans the more of a mess it will cause for the game.
Really good video, explained everything super well!
Great video!
I've always been frustrated with people pressuring games into coming out. The truth is, the programming process is never smooth and never clear, and things always change / come up.
The expectation to live up to Hollow Knight is insane, and people have to be patient if they want the best and biggest game possible.
We waited 10 years for pikmin 4,
Good luck silksong fans.
Rayman 4:
This video was so good! It really made me understand the position the fanbase and the expectations have put Team Cherry in, and I am really happy they are going forward with Silksong. I am not sure I would in their place. I swear I will not blame any flaws of the game on them, because they deserve only respect for their hard work, no matter how succesfull or not their games are. However, I'm sure Silksong will be great, whenever it comes out. Thank you again for the well put together and informative video.
People who keep complaining about Team Cherry not communicating have clearly never worked in a creative environment.
As an artist, talking to expecting fans is DRAINING. It's destructing, tiresome, and taking a lot of time you could've spent working because phrasing messages for thousands and millions of fans is very pressuring.
In other words, they might not communicate simply because it would mess with their artistic flow - it happens to passionate people - and we all know they're extremely passionate and inspired because of how much they gave us despite promising much less initially. Just chill, please.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes SO MUCH THIS
I'm an artist myself and the expectation and the longer one takes, the harder it is to give updates because of feeling bad about it taking so long and sometimes that just spirals
I have worked in the creative environment and all I can say is, stop over exaggerating. What the fans expect isn't a detailed update log or anything close to that. Just something like "Hey, we're still working on the game and we don't know when it'll release, it'll be awesome when it does and thanks for the continued support." See how easy that was? Didn't even take 30 seconds yet it takes them 5 years. Crowsworn and Katana Zero both sometimes release a screenshot as a form of communication. This woudn't have happened in the first place if TC just communicated a bit. The backlash is deserved.
Hollow Knight is my favourite game of all time. Silksong has been in my steam wishlist since 2019. And honestly, with all the exitement I have for Silksong, Im willing to wait however long it takes. I have plenty of stuff to do and play besides Silksong, so when Team Cherry (eventually) ships it, I will preorder it and enjoy it as much as I did the original Hollow Knight.
I think the current world full of deadlines and milestones is fucked up and Im just following a simple philosophy: “I will not expect anything from anyone, so please don’t anyone expect anything from me”. Making anything, be it a game, or your work duties, or a personal project, under pressure is only a demotivator in my eyes.
Love the video, really nicely done. Thank you for giving wider perspective, hope it will help in calming down the fans. I was hesitating to click the video, thought it's useless piece farming silksong topic. But it turned out to be insightful and enjoyable. :)
"Today is November 3rd, 2024
This is Araraura, your host for today, bringing you your daily Silksong news.
There has been no news to report for Silksong today.
This has been your daily news for Silksong for today, November 3rd, 2024..."
Silksong is the Winds of Winter of gaming.
I'm still watching, but phenomenal video man. Please keep it up, only 3.8k subs is criminal for this quality.
My only problem is that nobody forced them to give the initial release date they said. The fact that it's as late as it is without even a second trailer, the least they could do is say something.
Imagine thinking you're owed something.
@ imagine being so loyal to a studio that doesn’t know or care about you, that the slightest bit of criticism from a random fan gets you upset enough to reply like an asshole.
Wdym, we got a showcase and a trailer what else do you want? And btw that trailer didn't have a release date but then afterwards Microsoft said "everything you'll see today is coming out within the next 12 months" and on a tweet thay clarified they meant it about EVERYTHING, but even then, disregard everything I've said, god forbid they do whatever they want with their game that you haven't yet payed for
@@matiaspereyra9392 I’ll never understand why there are people who get so upset at the most lightweight criticism. All I said was I wish they would give an update on the game that was supposed to come out 3 years ago calm the fuck down bro.
@@zachc12 Your kind of people is destroying gaming
Entitled, ungrateful f***s
Someone having a similar experience was robtop (at least of what I can remember). The Geometry Dash community waited roughly 7 years for a new update, and he stated he felt that because it kept delaying, fans were expecting more, so he added more stuff, and the update was delayed again. I also think communication is an important thing. While it is of course Team Cherry's choice what to do with their game, I think it would have way more positive than negative aspects if they did some kind of "devlog" or such, and communicated openly with their fanbase through a discord or so. Occasional signs that the game studio is alive is good, but I think a few screenshots would not hurt either. And it would keep some fans satisfied, because they can see that something is happening, not just hear it. And there will always be the people who want the game out asap, but I think a majority would be satisfied with occasional updates and a few screenshots of areas, or NPCs, or anything really
Let them cook!! It's funny that those guys are true creators, won't ship a game every few years for money, instead they're like "oh wow Hollow Knight was so successful, it means we got infinite money to create the best sequel ever, so many ideas to put into it, let's do this"
This was a very insightful take. It doesn't make the wait any easier, but I don't envy them the pressure that's gotta be a bit overwhelming.
The rude silksong fans really need to realize that Team Cherry isn’t remaining quiet because “they’re greedy” or “they’re evil”. The reason is the fans themselves. Even if Cherry put out a little newsletter like the fans “want”, they would still find ways to complain. By harassing people online, it’s no wonder Team Cherry doesn’t want to interact with them.
People find ways to complain about literally anything. That does not mean it isn’t something the vast majority of the community would genuinely appreciate.
If team cherry doesn’t want to say anything that’s their prerogative, and they’re far from greedy or evil for doing so. But toxic fans are by no means unique to the hk/silksong fandom, there’s toxicity in every community and the developers of most things share information despite it.
With how many random employees received death threats due to game announcements I would have a pretty radio silent approach as well
Bro people were fine for the 2 years after the initial release date. They only started getting toxic after year 3 of complete radio silence, and we're on year 6 now. Team Cherry and their complete failure of PR is the direct cause of the toxicity you see now, not the other way around.
@@Cr3zant said as if 2023 wasn't one of the more significant years for silksong news.
it's still very bad they barely ever say anything, but come on man
@@squiddu there was no silksong news in 2023 aside from "yeah the xbox release date was actually unconfirmed" (which was said waayyyy too late imo), are you talking about the 2022 trailer? it's been radio silent for over 2 years now
as a solo game dev, I really hate when people gets angry at devs for delaying game release. I've never got upset if the game release date gets delayed, but gets even more excited because being delayed means they're trying to polish and make it even better, pushing themselves more and more. why don't we be more patient and cheer them up? so all the voices we send them becomes their energy, passion, and motivation. they know what they're doing more than we do.
9:25
Team Cherry having a PR and marketing guy must be the greatest joke of all.
why?
@harm991
Because we don't hear from them at all....
they probably mostly deal with nintendo, valve, contractors, etc. individuals aren't the only ones a PR/Marketing guy works with.
@@BSasafrasK Yeah no, public relations and marketing is literally _the_ consumer facing position.
@@RoiGamez You are literally one of the cringe, toxic fans outlined in this video.
That intro story about Hollow Knight's production, marketing, and release already answers the big question a lot. Amazing phrasing!
It also makes me excited for how they're going to reveal this game, when it happens.
People should be grateful in a way. Too many games that become really hyped up often fail to meet expectations because developers out of fear of disappointing fans say too much about what they want to do when it is not necessarily what they can or will do. The most toxic of the Hollow Knight community will still be mad when it eventually does come out because they deluded themselves into believing the game will be ginormous, insanely detailed, or perfect, but as long as the devs stay tight lipped about it and don’t make uncertain promises, they will make a good game that is quality tested instead of being rushed or unpolished.
Look at games like Cyberpunk 2077 or No Man’s Sky, they both have passionate developers who have continued to build upon the games beyond their release, but both devs had a lot of bad pr at launch because of the chatting about all the kinds of features that sounds nice conceptually but were much harder to implement properly.
Now look at developers like Rockstar and Valve, what do they have in common? You guessed it! They are both allergic to releasing video games! They have only been becoming more and more slow in development never mind announcing new stuff. However, they both share the trait of being pretty much completely silent about stuff unless they actively are trying to let people know with trailers and whatnot. I am pretty sure, the people who work at Valve signed a contract to never even think telling anybody anything they know about Half-life 3 or else they would get put into a torture chamber. And Jesus Christ, even though gta 6 was wanted for nearly a decade, only lunatics genuinely believed that gta 6’s map was going to have every gta map combined.
Valve isn't anywhere close to this bro. Valve is allergic to releasing games because they have the infinite money glitch with Steam and have fostered a work culture where games are only made when three factors are met. 1. That someone has an idea for a game. 2. They manage to garner enough support from other devs to actually set up a team to make said game. and 3. Said game doesn't blow up during development. They're able to do this because they're not a game company, they're a storefront that sometimes releases tech demos to draw more people to their store. And Half-life 3 is literally dead, it's not being developed, we have leaks that show what the game would've been and that too much time has passed and no one is working on it anymore since it can never meet either fans or devs expectations.
@@Cr3zant half life 3 is literally being developed, its in every counter strike and deadlock update. they released a game in pre alpha state that has 5 times the active players daily than hollow knight ever had. they released half life alyx in 2019 and aperture desk job (a short game) in 2022. i dont think you have any idea how valve works but whatever you said clearly shows you dont know what you are talking about
The only reason I ever got Hollow Knight was because I had $15 on switch and planned on buying undertale. I saw Hollow Knight for the same price and knew nothing about it. I bought Hollow Knight instead. I have no idea why. Probably the best choice with my money I have ever made.
I can't wait to play this game while reading Winds of Winter.
Great video! I loved how you brought up examples of other indie games and the devs experience making sequels. I believe in team cherry! Perhaps they are simply waiting for the switch 2 to release next year as they know a large part of their community exists on switch. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see! ^^
Welp, why devs are afraid to talk with le community about "when release"? - because more times than not community devolves into a mass of screeching apes when confronted with the reality that things take time, besides just the well known fear about commitment anyone faces: you have a deadline and you are get more and more shidded the closer to it you are
This was such a nice, measured video. I've never quite understood why people are so mad and desperate for Silksong when before Hollow Knight came out, nobody gave a shit about this team. We're not looking at decades of pedigree from a 100 man outfit that is listed in the stock market, we're looking at artists working at (hopefully) sustainable pace for themselves. I hope more people realise that there's nothing Team Cherry can actually say at this point to explain why they jumped the gun with the Silksong demo and release announcement without it resulting in more backlash, and just chill.
I also frankly would *prefer* Team Cherry not even look at the discourse because Silksong is not a Kickstarted game. It's a game being developed with funds from the sales of their previous game. They're developing Silksong essentially with their own money. People acting like their emotional investment in Hollow Knight makes them Team Cherry shareholders.
They already missed one release date that they only gave because XBOX made them. They won’t make another until the are 100% sure they can meet it.
I’d say we’ll probably get a release date as soon as the game is 100% done and physical copies start being manufactured. Even if the game releases before those physical copies are ready for market.
Man, I made a video about this, but damn, your video is almost a documentary 😂
I really liked how you used other indie game devs stories as a possible explanation on why Team Cherry remains silent about Silksong, it makes a lot of sense. The gaming community has become so toxic...
Also, I would say they might not be sharing anything because of NDA stuff. Silksong is a much bigger game than the original Hollow Knight was before its release. It's a much more "high-stakes" situation, so the contracts with distributors must be different now, you know?
I myself refuse to beliave Silksong will come out this year. Next year even. My only expectation for Silksong is the fact that it's going to release. Silksong needs more time if the developers say so, and what the community is doing, is basically puting pressure on Team Cherry. People want something about Silksong, because Team Cherry had been absouletley silent and didn't say anything. But they keep working on the game! Some games take 12 years to develop, and did those games became a meme cause it will never realease? No! I wouldn't rise my expectations for Silksong, because Silksong is not finished! We need to wait, we need to be patient! WE NEED TO STOP PUTTING PRESSURE ON TEAM CHERRY! They are working on the game, so it will eventually come out! Not tommorow, not this month, not this year, but it will! Silksong is been in develpment for only six years! Six years is not that much! If the fans contenue to put pressure on Team Cherry, yeah the game will take longer to come out! People raise expectations, Team Cherry wants to get those expectations, but while they do it, people rise even more expectations! Putting pressure on team Cherry is not speeding up the process, it only makes it worse! IT'S FINE, if Team Cherry don't give us anything, it's their vision! But even if you could say that you wanna know something about the game, again Siksong is been in develpment for six years only! It would be a diffrent case if it was 16 years in development, but it's not! Team Cherry needs time if they say so! TEAM CHERRY IS WORKING ON IT, LET IT COOK! You're making everything worse, you're not speeding up the process, again you're only making it worse! We need to give Team Cherry time otherwise there won't be a game!
I hope that people willl start understanding that, what they are doing, is making things worse. More and more people like this, lost faith in Silksong ever coming out, so less and less people will be making everything worse. be patient, and don't put Team Cherry into pressure
-To all impatient people in Hollow Knight community
This video is needed. There's a small minority of the the hollow knight community that could hopefully learn from this video. I say small cause most of yall are awesome and waiting respectfully. I think the silksong 🤡 is funny to a point but some people are taking it to far.
6:35 Wait I just noticed, that’s from the Slay The Princess Soundtrack. Good to see that a top-tier game is getting some recognition!
Sorry, love that game too, but that whole soundtrack that he was playing was still from hollow knight, gimme a minute to find the exact theme
Yup, it’s just city of tears ost 👍
that's from hollow knight lol
I had the video in the background while working and loved listening to it ! When it ended i went to your channel to see more of your content and i was shocked by your sub count, you deserve 10x more !
I'm perfectly fine with how team cherry wants to do things. It's their game and they gave us so much content for a lower than average price. They can take as long as they need and want.
But just saying they’re alive can help a lot. Consistently updated devlogs would be great
Agreed. I'm perfectly fine with them taking their time and deciding on zero communication. Anything they say outside of a release date will be met with anger, so saying nothing is the best thing they can do
@@Abby-ug4xcIf they hadn't gone literally zero contact for 5 straight years they wouldn't have to worry about being met with anger. JS it's weird to not even put out extremely sparse updates that you're even working on a game that's this anticipated. Not even saying it's disrespectful or inconsiderate or anything, obviously the fans aren't owed anything. It's just kinda weird
@@machinegirl03 There have been sparse updates though. Their PR guy or whoever said they're still working on it
Outside of that, there's nothing more to say until there's a release date
"they wouldn't have to worry about being met with anger" jfc fans are crazy entitled
Really nicely made video, and gives so many reasons that I haven't seen brought up before. Hoping many more HK/SS fans see this
Isn't Team like main 3 people? ( or at least from what I have seen and somewhat mentioned in your video, I might check the credits again cuz I have forgotten since then )
Like I would imagine that if they are trying to make a game that has an expectation to stand next to it's previous title, and that seems pretty challenging, especially with the level of excitement people have..
I don't follow hollow knight much, I played it and it was really good!
For me the next game gets out when it's gets out.
Although I can understand that the wait for the next game is long and grueling for some people, I mean i have seen some stuff while browsing stuff around the game.
Yep, Team Cherry only employs three full-time employees afaik.
That's one of the most level headed analysis about indie game, expectations and entitlement in an increasingly consumerist world. Nintendo is another "victim" of this behavior with Switch 2.
It's alright, if they let it marinade long enough, it's going to become game of the century
or it'll become most disappointing game of the century
@@Troutington2Is it naive of me to have faith in them after so long?
@@Troutington2If Team Cherry’s lead play tester confirms that Silksong is so much better than Hollow Knight he’s gotta have some degree of credibility, I suppose
@@lucasmunozjetmore761 disappointing not because it is bad, but because peoples hopes and expectations have become so unrealistic they are bound to be disappointed
Holy shit i clicked on this, expecting it to be by some TH-camr with idk 350k, 200k subs, watched it and wanted to leave a comment about how high quality it was for the subs, then saw you have 2.95k. WHAT THE HELL, GIVE THIS GUY SUBS. Narration was clear and nice, video was well paced and edited, content was informative, it was a really good video, I cannot believe how underrated you are, may the algorithm bless you, holy shit.
Waiting for Silksong is easy.
Imagine waiting for a fan game that looks and sounds so fucking good, is being developed for over 15 years, has no demo (and will never have), dev said that if the game has an official sequel, the fan game will be cancelled, and you can't even complain to the dev about it because it's a fan project; at the end of the day the dev doesn't owe YOU anything. He's not making it for YOU, he's making it for HIMSELF!
What game?
I’m not a hollow knight fan, but I want to get into the story and play it, which I am starting. For fans of the game, think of this if they keep improving and adding to this sequel, imagine how big of an indie game it could become, possibly a game of the year contender because of how much content will be shoved into this sequel team cherry seems to be taking there time to perfect 👌 this game
Yeah!!!
That is a downright shame to hear that some fans have exhibited toxic behavior towards the indie devs that have produced games that these fans supposedly love. What is wrong with people out there? If you love a product that an artist makes and you want to support that artist so they can produce more of what you've enjoyed, why would you go the other way and harass the artist or go to the extreme length of issuing death threats? Just horrid...
In any case, terrific work, Indie Game Oasis. I thank you for the reminder of the significant impact Nintendo had on Team Cherry by shining their Treehouse Live spotlight onto Hollow Knight. As a lifelong Nintendo fan, I know I got excited when I saw that happen during the E3s of yesteryear, but I am not sure whether it occurred to me at the time the magnitude of how many other people out there that do not regularly tune into Nintendo's announcements tuned in for that indie showcase and got super excited for Hollow Knight and Silksong as well. At the same time, I find it interesting that you pointed to the impact Nintendo had on Team Cherry's sales and growth, but you did not bring up the fact that perhaps Team Cherry's development of Silksong has also been impacted by the inevitable shift towards the Switch's successor, and that because their development had already reached a certain timeline, it is entirely possible that they are having to spend time reconfiguring the game to run on whatever the Switch's successor will be called versus focusing on the original Switch. It is even entirely possible given Hollow Knight's incredible success on Switch that maybe Team Cherry is preparing to include Silksong as part of the "Switch 2's" launch window. (Then again, I know the "Switch 2" is heavily rumored to be backwards compatible, so this could be a moot point...but we don't know enough information about either yet...)
One way or another, for as much as I look forward to playing Silksong, I am fine with waiting until the game is good and ready. I do not expect it to be "better" than Hollow Knight per se, but I do expect the world to be larger and full of new surprises. Besides - the Switch is certainly not hurting for Metroidvanias these days. There are many others including Nintendo's own Metroid Dread and other indie darlings like Ori and the Will of the Wisps that are worth players' time.
No way Silksong has any sort of relationship going on with Nintendo bro. They at least had a contract with Xbox for day one gamepass last year, and if they care at all about maintaining their business relations turning around and going to Nintendo is gonna piss Microsoft off, and Nintendo would never allow a game being offered for free on another system to be one of their crown launch window jewels, especially for something as anticipated as Ounce.
@ What’s Ounce?
Anyways, the two are not mutually exclusive. Team Cherry can wait ‘til Switch 2 comes out AND be on XBox Game Pass Day 1. Win-win-win.
watched tons of "Why Silksong Is Taking So Long" type of videos, this is the best one without a doubt. the amount of efforts put in this vid is wild, keep it up.
Normalize consistently updated dev logs so _this_ doesn't happen...
God bless Toby for his newsletters!
Not even constant, just consistent…
Moreso normalize not starting marketing before having a release date. Devlog's shit hard to make especially when some days you're doing cleanup.
@@kristoffersonsilverfox3923 This is actually one of the reasons why Rain World gained such a following despite it's less than ideal first reviews. It was famous for having one of the most up-to-date and in depth dev logs in a modern indie game as every decision made by the devs was clearly explained on a nearly daily basis during the development of the base game.
@@yarn2350 Exactly my thoughts! It is awesome seeing the evolution of a fun little side project into my #1 favorite game, and I'm sure it'd be even more awesome seeing something similar with something as big as Silksong
One thing to add as well. The manga series bleach written by Tite Kubo is in a similar place the ice and fire series. People wanted for the bleach series to continue and pressed and pressed Tite much that during the end of the manga, he didn’t really care to much and just wanted it to be over with. Now, over a decade after the manga finished, we’ve only gotten about 5 different light novels and a single manga chapter that act as a continuation onto the story
I’m still reeling over how I got Geometry Dash 2.2 before Silksong. That said, let them cook.
team cherry = cherry team
what a thoughtful, thorough, and well-structured explanation!
unlike undertale, team cherry is not making any attempts to communicate, which is what most people are pretty upset with since- to them- they got a trailer and a demo of silksong back in early 2019. Come feb 2025, it'll be officially 6 years since they advertised their game and sold merch for a game they haven't released.
in june 2022, xbox announced a rough release date for the game- claiming it'd release 'within a year'. (latest assumed was june 2023.) only to have Leth make the infamous in may 2023 ('hey gang...') post, stating that it's not coming out yet on the previously assumed release date, and gave us a vague 'you'll know when it'll come out when you start seeing more updates'. It has now been a year and nearing five months since the closest thing we ever had to a 'release date', and still complete radio silence. and team cherry haven't made a noise on their media feeds since 2019.
If they bothered to just say something maybe once every few months, maybe fans wouldn't be so rabid or upset. What did they expect announcing a game nearly SIX YEARS in advanced, and then not say anything in between the wait?
Please don't be disingenuous.
If you really meant this (and actually watched this video), then you'd realize/acknowledge that we get updates at least a few times a year
It reminds me a lot of what's happening with Playdead's Game 3 where it's become way bigger and ambitious than the devs have anticipated and are staying mostly quiet as to hopefully not disappoint their fans by building too much hype for the game
Over 7 years for a 2D game does not bode well for a sequel. Either the vision gets lost along the way or the game is actually over designed to the point it loses any real charm or originality and the longer they take, the less opportunities there are for unique creativity when you give everyone else nearly a decade to do all the things you were going to do first.
As a writer, scopecreep is a very powerful phenomenon. At first, my fantasy story was very bare-boned, and I had trouble coming up with ideas for the plot and setting.
Now it's over 900 pages and continuing to grow in complexity and detail, and I desperately need to cut out a lot of content.
I wouldn't mind waiting longer for a better game, but I think they should be a bit more open to communicating with us.
It'd anger the fans even more, look at what happened with OMORI
@@chipsalancienne3080the opposite happened to rainworld, now what
.... Except, as this video points out, they do in fact communicate.
Fans just choose to ignore them for some reason. 🫤
Dude this is such an important video, thanks for uploading it. I think it shifted my own perspective, and ive never been a hardcore die-for-it fan. Actually, i bought hollow knight this year, and im just finishing the dlcs right now, so i havent yet had to wait for years in silence, but ive always thought to myself that it was great that team cherry took their time, just so that they can produce an even better game than the previous one. Your words hit hard though, and as a creator myself (and FAR from a famous one, at that), i think that even this opinion is wrong. We should not expect silksong to be better, in fact we shouldnt expect anything out of it, even thought thats impossible. We should be glad that hollow knight exists. Striving for something better is a really fucked up and common theme nowadays. BE GLAD FOR WHAT WE ALREADY GOT
Amazing video !
They're refusing to engage with the community because much of it is toxic, they are millionaires, and once the game is out it'll be great and sell well and no one will care about the delays. They, quite honestly, sound like self-realized and emotionally mature individuals.
Especially when you note they do go to lil cons n stuff to play other indies and the like. They're passionate but they're (rightfully) not comfortable engaging with the community when they have no clear release + the hype is scary. TC releasing new merch instigates tons of discussion and discourse, I feel them even tweeting "Hello!" will activate so much manic excitement that it absolutely is best they just keep to themselves. It's probably more healthy for them and I hope they're not busting their mental health or anything. Hopefully the environment is relaxed and they're just having a blast going "Oo, what about this, or what if we added this to the map! What about an ability that does this??"
I will wait another 6 years if it means they get to make EVERY piece of Silksong and feel achieved in doing so ^^
i'm an indie developer and i have this same problem. i stg over a year ago i had rough-draft-developed a game, and was telling people "it will be done next week." i said that week after week. and in my heart and mind, i knew that i *could* release it in a week. but each week that past, i never released it. sometimes i would spend days changing a button or animation detail. even now, i think, "i must be able to release this by next month." but all this delay kills the soul. i don't care about anything anymore. i barely want to talk about my project (i'm embarrassed) and i regret ever starting.
People act like they don't have other games to play while letting Silksong bake in the oven.
yeah just play hollow knight again
When games are ever more expensive and much less good these days plus all the dei woke feminist bullsh*t there really aren't. Unless you own alot of good older games. Fortunately I do but still..
@@viper-the-great Do you watch Asmongold or The Critical Drinker? Not trying to be rude or start drama or anything, just curious cause those communities say things like this really often and I get really confused.
@@viper-the-greatwhat is the dei woke feminist bullsh*t that you are talking about? I hear a lot of people complaining about it but I don't really understand what it means to people and nobody that I have asked will explain. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just don't know what you mean and want to know.
If you don't know what he's talking about, you honestly have no clue about what's currently happening in the game industry, maybe go find out?@@thegoldenraysoftheglorious1180
27:53 - the fact i actually watched this when it first premiered and when you put it in this video, finally clicked the message together. Honestly, I can totally understand the reason why. I will just maybe avoid speaking about and wait when they feel ready. No constant asking, pestering but just a check in once in a while and maybe see about other games they could have made.