My question is why would God create someone who he knew would ultimately reject him and go to hell? Especially if we take literally the words "better for him if he hadn't been born". Wouldn't it be more benevolent to leave such a person uncreated?
Because that is the nature of free will. If you couldn't refuse to love Him, then your love wouldn't be real. The "choice" would be bogus. All of your unselfish caring and sharing with others would be nothing more than the behaviour of some colonial insect, like ants. Do you think ants are the best thing God ever made? Of course not. The best would be us, the last thing ... the one He said was "very good" because we can love Him freely. That's why we are the crown of creation, and God was willing to become one of us. We have free will, and it's up to us to choose how to use it.
@@ayybeealternative1999 It was a very wise man who said, "If God did not exist, it would have been necessary to invent Him." That is true, but in all actuality, God does exist. And "only a fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'" Don't be a fool.
@@lukasmakarios4998 Im Christian but tbh you don’t address him correctly. “If Couldn’t refuse to love him, then your love wouldn’t be real” Which love exactly? We were talking about people uncreated. You can’t love or hate when uncreated. The question he asked was about God his Will not the free will of humans
@@stquodvultdeus4613 , because the person that He creates has free will to choose, what he said was related to this conversation. If the being wasn't created, the being wouldn't be able to choose, think, or really have any free will because they wouldn't exist
As a former Catholic turned atheist, I have been wondering the Church's stance on this for years without ever really digging into it, rather asking people directly about their individual stances. Thanks for this video, it's intriguing to know more about this.
The Bible does not teach that people are eternally tormented in hell. I used to believe the same thing until I studied the Bible for myself. This is a doctrine that entered the church through the pagan Roman Catholic Church. If you are interested to see this truth, I would be more than happy to clearly show you this from the Scriptures. There are 4 main verses that people have used to teach eternal conscious torment, but I assure you that when studied in context and not just taking them as cherry picked verses, they clearly teach that the unrighteous will be destroyed at the end and that they will be no more forever.
@@PatrickInCayman I have reread the Bible and studied church history and that’s how I came to the truth. I used to believe as you do when I listened to doctrines of men, but then I actually sat down and studied the Bible for myself and realized that eternal conscious torment is nowhere to be found in the Bible. I can clearly show you this in the Scriptures if you want to hop on a call and study. Edit: There isn’t a single verse that says our souls are eternal. Quite the opposite actually.
@@Vladi.G You: I have reread the Bible and studied church history and that’s how I came to the truth. Me: Doubt that seriously. Please read Ignatius of Antioch (Disciple of the Apostle John) wrote in 107AD, his Letter to the Smyrnaeans chapters 7 and 8 Please read that again, and come back here to share your thoughts.
@@PatrickInCayman The first and foremost authority is the Bible. We must first consult the Bible and then what men have to say. I’m not surprised that you believe hell is eternal conscious torment if your first source that you provided is something outside the Bible.
@@truecatholic8692 Pope Francis is trying to bring the Church into the 21st century but he is not changing Catholic dogma. He is trying to make the Catholic Church relevant to the demands and needs of modern society, the challenges facing us all. The world facing us today has little resemblance to the world of first century Palestine.
Listening to this video (and other videos) has inspired me. I am not Catholic but I appreciate the Catholic viewpoint. Thank you so much Fr. Casey. Keep up the good work!
I lived without God for about 3 years. I thought that I could just autonomously go though my life and just did what I thought we right for me. After about 2 years, I found myself extremely depressed, anxious, and isolated from everyone else. The thing is I chose isolation because of anxiety and instead of turning to God for help, I just kept telling myself it wasn’t worth it. To make a long story short, this was mainly due to a lot of bullying and experiencing horrible things I didn’t know could happen in a catholic school. I am still in the process of reconnecting myself with him and I am loving every second of it. He has set me free from so many things.
Amen! I believe God has set me free, too. A couple of years ago, I came back to faith, and I've been choosing to live for God. I don't want to be selfish anymore. I know now that God's very nature is love. At 68, I'm more at peace than I ever was since I was a small child.
good for you for leaving superstition. you need not be isolated. talk to atheists online, and look for positive messages about how you can find your own meaning in life and accept that reality can be harsh but also wonderful.
I never got shocked by God wrath because He is patient with us and He gives us more time to repent. Why would we expect anything from God if we refuse to repent and continue to hate and do evil? May God guide all who seek his face, we are weak but strong in His refuge
What I don't understand are the standards God uses to decide if people go to hell or not. I have no problem with a just and loving God sending, say, Hitler to hell, because quite frankly he deserves it. But it's difficult to imagine why a just and loving God would send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him or accidentally followed the wrong religion. Why should a kind and just atheist share in the same punishment as a mass murderer? This is the part that doesn't make any sense to me.
@@casuallavaring People that couldn't believe in God not by their own fault, but of circumstances, can still be saved, they will still have to choose when they die. God doesn't send us to hell for not believing necessarily, but instead for not choosing him once you know who is he. PD: God doesn't work with punishments as are ours. It's not who did most good or most evil. If it where only up to merit, no one would be saved. God has mercy for everyone and even Hitler would be able to be saved if at the end of his life he chose to repent and correct his soul.
@@analyticallysound2716 I will always ask for forgiveness. Good luck with your rebellious attitude. God didn't make us sick, we get sick by our choices. God hates sins and is always there to help us if we want to.
@@DarkAngel-cj6sx "Created sick, and commanded to be well". Imagine being grateful to the man who put a gun to your head for putting it there in the first place. Your only sin was being born, which was not your choice in the first place. You thank God for his patience? He made you knowing you would be corrupt and evil in his own eyes and then demands you fix what you never chose to be.
Atheist here. It's quite an interesting point of view, but I do have a couple of objections: There's a huge difference between being left in a state without goodness and roasting in a litteral lake of fire for eternity. If I was an omnipotent being, I wouldn't leave people there whether they'd like me or not. If you have some other interpretation of hell you may disregard this objection. Going with the powerplant analogy, no electric company would put a deadline past which you can no longer pay and plug into them. Most Christians I know believe that once you die, it is too late to accept God and you're condemned to hell forever. If God is truly loving and merciful, why wouldn't he welcome people changing their mind after they die?
Because he gives us all the grace and loving help we need in our earthly life to make a choice. There is a light that illumines every man. It is believable that an unborn baby who has died gets to make a choice after death because they had no chance to make it on earth. But you and I have that chance.
@@annarumble838 First it is debatable how much "grace and help" God gives to different people. I mean to me it's not even clear God exists and it is something I'm not particularly inclined to take on faith, or I wouldn't be an atheist in the first place. Or even worse people from non Abrahamic religions have it even more difficult to make such a choice beforehand, because they tend to be convinced of different beliefs with the same faith Christians have. But all that set aside, what exactly is wrong with changing one's mind? Even if we assume that God guided people towards the right choice and they still made the wrong one, if there's a person in hell who changes their mind, he clearly could have done something more to help them yet he chose not to.
There are different levels of punishment in hell. Luke 12 references this. One can be cut into pieces and assigned to the same place with unbelievers if one is wicked enough. Someone who has known Christianity yet rejects it is held more accountable than someone who isn't raised with the religion. This is what's referenced when it says the master may beat with many stripes or with few.
@@annarumble838 I used to work in a prison. A lot of the people there had no “choice” to be good. There were people who were mentally unwell, people who’d spent their whole lives being abused by their parents in the worst way. They couldn’t choose goodness because they’d never experienced it. And what they needed to get better was kindness, not punishment. It’s easy to claim “oh everyone has a choice” and I used to think that- but the reason those people were worse than me is that I grew up with kind and loving parents and they grew up in hell. They never had a choice.
The Biblical interpretation of "hell" is "the grave." People don't actually look up words in their original languages... Hebrew word for hell is Sheol which translated "the grave." Greek word for hell is Hades which translated "the grave." They pervert scripture and then don't even use the Bible other than perverting it. Run far away from the Roman Catholic Church. You don't stay alive in hell. Hell is the grave and then, if you are wicked, you are thrown in the lake of fire and are consumed, destroyed, burned up, etc. You cease to exist after that. Done. God is not a tyrant. These wicked people just love perverting the truth of God's word and would rather be instruments of Satan more than instruments of God.
Our Lady of Mdjugorje has said that those who go to hell have ceased thinking favourably about God. And choose hell for themselves. They suffer there, but always refuse to pray.
Why pray to a god that hasn't been demonstrated to exist? . . . and who, as a baby killer, seems morally bankrupt? Why do you worship someone who has a reputation for infanticide? . . . the wonton torture and murder of "the innocent"?
I’m glad you mentioned Dante’s inferno. I highly highly recommend any Christian read the divine comedy, it has such unique perspectives and beautiful messages for a book written in the 1300s
@@StillProtesting wrong. So reading Lord of the Rings is useless because it is "not real". These stories may not be real in the literal sense, but we can learn very much from them.
@@games-bk2ho God assumed a personne want hell if she didn't have a relationship with Him even if she was a good christian, so if said personne was't good enouth
Eternal burning torment would only be NECESSARY if two reasons were BOTH true: 1. The souls of all humans are immortal (i.e. all souls become conscious after conception and continue to exist into eternity future), and 2. The corrupting seed of sin that we receive from our parents grows progressively, irreversibly, absolutely, and completely given enough time. Even a speck of sin is the seed of a future satanic being within. Just as our souls are locked into our current mortal bodies, the lost will be raised and given immortal bodies to lock their souls into. Then they will be thrown into the lake of fire. No matter how kind and gentle a nonbeliever may seem to you at the moment, God sees the sin inside them growing. Ephesians 4:22 (NASB) says, “That, in reference to your former way of life, you are to rid yourselves of the old self, which IS BEING corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit.” 2 Timothy 3:13 (NASB) says, “But evil people and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” Galatians 5:9 (NASB) says, “A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.” Colossians 1:21 (NLT) says, “This includes you (Gentiles before they became Christians) who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.” Ephesians 2:12 (NASB) says, “Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.” For this reason, God knows that their immortal soul is on track to being another satanic-like being in the future. And since their soul exists forever, if they do not obtain salvation through Jesus, God must eternally separate them from Himself and those who will be in heaven. But He loves His enemies and has made a way out of our hopeless situation through the person of Jesus Christ if we accept Him before we die. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 (NLT), “And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus.” Look at the current behavior of Satan and his demons driven by hate and rage. They are the end products of complete corruption. John 10:10a (NASB) says, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.” How can anyone contain satanic evil in a group of lost immortal humans and angels? Do you remember what God said in Genesis about the abilities of humans? God reveals something about humans in Genesis 11:6 (NLT), “‘Look!’ he said. ‘The people are united, and they all speak the same language. After this, nothing they set out to do will be impossible for them!’” Eternal pain will eternally contain the lost souls’ thoughts and attention. They will forever be in such torment that they can never unify to break forth and spread corruption again. Bottom line - the sin (selfishness) in lost people is growing progressively, irreversibly, absolutely, and completely given enough time. Death does not stop the progression. Every lost person will end up completely corrupted like Satan and his demons driven by hate and rage so that all they want to do is “steal, kill and destroy.” Eternal separation and containment in torment are necessary.
Gotta be honest... This is where you lose me. If I accept the idea that everything good comes from God and only God, that still leaves me with the problem that this idea of God seems to punish people for not believing. Not believing when dozens of others also claim that you need to believe in their version or face some terrible fate or other. Not believing when there are ultimately very good reasons why someone might not believe. It's not like Atheists say "Yeah God exists but I don't want that." We're simply not convinced he exists, just as we're not convinced of the existence of... I dunno... Lakshmi. I'm neither ready to believe, nor accept as morally correct, that not being convinced of something, with ultimately not much in the way of proof, will necessarily result in a bitter, hateful and deeply unhappy person. There's a lot in Christianity that I find deeply admirable and that I genuinely try to emulate, but I don't think I'll ever see a satisfactory answer to things like the problem of evil or God's wrath.
Your comment is interesting. Can you elaborate on how "God seems to punish people for not believing?", because that is literally the opposite of what Fr. Casey said in the video.
@@edxmon Well... Yes and no. His argument, and feel free to correct me here if I misunderstood him, seems to come down to the idea that atheists, or anyone who believes in a faith other than Christianity, distances themselves from God and that's where the suffering, Hell etc. come in. My issue with that is that as someone who doesn't already believe you're confronted with essentially dozens of belief systems, many of which claim to be the only path to salvation.
@@edxmon but it's not the opposite of what our Lord said at the end of the Gospels. You have to believe in order to be saved. You have to follow Our Lord's teachings to be saved.
Sorry but this is not what catholicism teach, if you follow your conscience and conduct you are life with love and basically behave like Jesus wanted you can be saved even if you are atheist or believe in other religions. Turning your back to God doesn't mean not being cognitively convinced of his existence but rather something like "you said to love your neighbour, guess what, I don't care about him, I only care about me".
I almost didn’t watch this because I was scared to hear what you were going to say. I feel so much better after watching this then I thought I was going to do. This is very comforting.
I read that only 6% of people calling themselves Christians are _truly_ Christian! That means 94% of those who think they are saved are really going to hell - which means that over 90% of all people ever born are destined for a fate worse than death! Evil doesn't get any more evil than this! People should be praying God *doesn't* exist!
@@lauterunvollkommenheit4344 Jesus doesnt punish. He gives the wicked what they want. Being without God. And since God and Jesus are life... being without them is... death. That is what they get.
@@StillProtesting I only quoted Yahweh. He himself says that he punishes people. And that he delights in it. Jesus also talks about punishment. What's the point in denying it?
My problem with the existance of hell isnt that it exists, its that it is an infinite punishment for a finite crime. If you dont pay your electricity bill, they cut off your electricity bill... until you pay it again. Its not once you dont pay it once you are cut off forever. The idea of hell with no chance for redemption after getting there simply isnt something a loving god would do, especially when you consider how, comparatively trivial, some mortal sins are.
Hell as eternal punishment does In Fact Not exist. The Bible literally says that we should fear him that can destroy both Body and Soul. The Bible talks about the "second death" in Revelations. Hell is literally the Second Death, that of the soul and it is permanent annihilation with the inability to repent and live with God forever. Its truly a horrific punishment, worse than one in which you are burning forever with the ability to "think" or repent and beg God to release you. No, the confused understanding of hell that is prevelant now in modern day Christianity is not worse than what the Bible actually teaches. God will annihilate the lost once and for all. I choose Jesus, and to be a priest in his household. 🙏
If you are a Christian, especially Catholic please read the saints, the mystics in particular, like St Faustina, very enlightening about our lord and what he wants to do for us and what we can do for him. Divine Mercy is very special. Jesus, I trust in you Amen. .
@@R-78787 Maybe you should read the Bible instead and you would probably stop being a Catholic if you did. You'd see that they do a lot of shady things.
I watched this as its a concept I've grappled with. A forgiving and loving God to slam you into an eternal hell just because you deny him. If you compare this to parental love then it beggars the question...... if a child renounces their mother or father, would they condemn their child to an eternity of torture and suffering? I love this young man and I truly think he's quite wonderful....... but this just doesn't cut it for me.
the thing is that god is not a human, in fact he would be closer to a Lovecraftian god than to a being like us. Anything not good can endanger creation. We can clearly see how man creates chaos on earth. but because he loves us, he gives us a chance to turn to him and do good.
All "evil" is not man made in origin, and the idea presented that a deity/God/Ultimate Father who is trully all loving would leave out his child in the cold who has renounces or forsaken him is preposterous. I haven't yet encountered a single atheists who when asked... "Do you think that if you knocked on the door to Jesus asking for help that he would refuse to open because your not a Christian believer or belive in God?" ...has then answered back that they agree with this and belive Jesus wouldn't open the door for them, for the reason of their lack of faith. True love is unconditional. Even atheists recognises this. Tell me which one here has faith in the Love of Christ? An Atheists asking help from Jesus or a Cristian expecting Jesus to reject him? Go watch the video on youtube of "Pope Francis consoles a boy who asked if his non-believing father is in Heaven"
Hell is the grave and not eternal. No fire is eternal. The conclusion of hellfire, which is not hell, is eternal. The conclusion is that the wicked will be consumed, destroyed, burnt up, ashes under our feet, etc. Hell gets thrown into the lake of fire burning with brimstone as well.
@@runningbear6391 do you feel like a big man claiming you are somehow superior for believing life is meaningless? Does it drive your ego that you can proclaim life is meaningless and yet say that your okay with that? If life is meaningless why did you take the time to tell someone it’s meaningless. Sounds kind of meaningless to take your time to tell us life is meaningless.
Yes, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about fiery Gehenna. They would understand Gehenna because it was a real place just on the outskirts of Jerusalem. It was a burning trash dump where the fires would burn constantly, day and night. The bodies of criminals would be dumped there to burn, rot, and be eaten by worms. It was seen by the Jews as an evil, cursed place where the souls of the wicked would be sent for punishment. However, the prevailing Jewish belief at the time was that Gehenna's punishments were meant to purify the souls, not to torture them endlessly. Moreover, a literal translation of the original Greek text of the NT does not say "eternal" when talking about post mortem punishment, it says, essentially, "an age". Translators took the Greek word "aionian", meaning "age" or age-during" and translated it as "eternal". Let's look at punishment. The type of punishment illustrated by the traditional concept of hell is retributive. A payback type of punishment, meant to satisfy the offended party. However, the original Greek text never used "timoria" to describe post mortem punishment. It only used "kolasin", which means "corrective punishment". Matthew 25:46 finishes with "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." in our English Bibles. However, the literal concordant version reads, "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.". Eonian means "an age". Chastening for an age. The lengths of the "ages" in this verse do not have to be of equal durations. "Age" duration was based on context and an age was considered to last as long as it needs to last. A certain amount if time. For example, the OT of the Bible describes the amount of time that Jonah was in the whale was "olam", an age. Was Jonah in the whale for an eternity? Moreover, post mortem punishment is corrective, according to a literal translation of the Greek text. Corrective punishments do not last forever. Besides, as it says in Lamentations 3:31-33 - "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. 32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. 33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone." As it says in 1 Timothy 4:10 - "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." God bless.
I struggle so much with my faith! This is all so difficult to understand. Why does it have to be so hard to understand? You are a very smart and wise man for such a youngster. You are truly blessed. I don't know about me and many of us coming late to the party. I have no doubt that God is great and all loving, I highly doubt my deserving his love and forgiveness. God bless you young man!
Human beings have always wanted and tried to save themselves from their own sins and earn their own eternal salvation. It is part of our sinful nature to do so. But there is no amount of human good works that could ever satisfy the demands of perfect holiness before YHWH because we “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). But Jesus, The Christ, was SINLESS and He satisfied all the demands of perfect righteousness. So He shed His own blood and died for our sins in order to redeem us. Then He rose from the dead and victoriously offered that glorious gift of eternal life to anyone and everyone who believes in Him and His promise to give us this gift. Hallelujah, What a Savior!! AND NOW we are FREE in Christ - at LIBERTY to LOVE OTHERS! Shalom (PTK)
It's needlessly complicated by lies. Hell for example is a lie. The Bible teaches that at death we are acquitted of sins. Romans 6:7 "For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin" It also says that man is mortal Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins is the one who will die." It does however teach that destruction is the punishment. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction"
@@Pj-fm7oe I disagree with your interpretation. I believe you are taking Romans 6:7 out of context. Death in this passage is talking about dying with Christ on the Cross not physical death. Dying with Christ means believing in him and being baptized in him. This act cleanses us from past sin but does not make us sinless and unable to sin again. The last two references when read in context is talking about a dying soul displaced from God's love. If you continue reading past 2 Thessalonians 1:9 it actually says, "...everlasting destruction, away from the Presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." Death then is removal from God in the worst way you can imagine. Many don't believe that hell is a physical place and neither is heaven. Those who go to hell are removed from God's presence to live a lonely, unfulfilled, hopeless, emotionally and physically painful eternity beyond anything we can comprehend. "everlasting destruction" doesn't mean annihilation as into nothingness like matter/anti-matter, but simply a removal from God's graces and his love and cast away into absolute abject loneliness and hopelessness. Hell is very real, as is heaven, or the entire Christ story becomes immaterial. Perhaps our mental images of them is one of the many mysteries of God that we cannot possible comprehend. But make no bones about it, they are both real.
@@freddan6fly Most definitely you are wrong and Satan is deceiving you. I’ll pray for you in hope that you will come to your senses and ask Jesus for forgiveness before it is too late. I know it is difficult to let go of your pride and selfishness and ask for God’s love and guidance, but it is the only way. God bless!
True love is unconditional. Love can never be harmful if rejected. The moment you attach dire consequences and harm to rejecting the love it stops being love. It cannot be God created hell just in case you didn’t love him back.
Consider that many Abrahamic faiths, including some branches of Christianity, believe in conditional immortality, that is, simply speaking, death is a state on unconsciousness and the wicked are never resurrected, or, that the wicked are destroyed the belief in eternal hell is held by many or most but not all Christians, and Muslims, but not by other religions except maybe Zoroastrianism -- but even they may believe in conditional immortality I'm not sure.
I'm still waiting for you to explain how committing mass murder of CHILDREN over an entire country, for the actions of a person who you even admit the afflicted had nothing to do with, is in any not just viciously vile and evil barbarism. I legitimatelly cannot understand you can sit there and say "God is love so him committing mass slaughter of children for something they had absolutely nothing to with and were thus in no way responsible for is okay and is actually a loving act of mass child-murder by default." And that's even before we factor in that in your story your god deliberately uses mind control to prevent the Pharaoh from doing what he wants him to to have an EXCUSE to make more innocent people suffer, for no other reason than to show off.
@@StillProtesting There is no excuse for torturing and then murdering every innocent child, baby, and fetus in the womb. In the Bible God was able to close the wombs of all the women in Abimelek's court. He could have just as easily done that 10 years before the flood so that there would have bee no innocent ones to murder. Genesis 20:18, NIV: for the LORD had kept all the women in Abimelek's household from conceiving because of Abraham's wife Sarah.
@@StillProtesting the egyptin didnt belive in god so they would all thrown to hell but if you think all kids will go to haven dosent that mean you have no problem with abortion
The analogy is terrible. When an engine runs out of power, it stops working and the object ceases to exist. But hell is a place where you have to be MORE ACTIVE and MORE POWERED so that you can, for eternity, feel the ultimate wrath.
@@abusafoura6594 when an engine stops working it does not cease to exist. Can’t you fix it? And what you said is terrible. It has nothing to do with what I said. If a power company had unlimited power (like god does), it would be ridiculous for them to cut anyone’s power, because no one is losing out by giving them power. In the real world you give it to who pays for it because there isn’t enough to go around. If god is omnipotent there is never not enough to go around.
@@Joemamahahahaha821 you fool of a thing, I wasn't even dissing your point, just adding to it. The analogy I called terrible was of the Monk's analogy. He described hell as a place that simply lacked the kindness of God, but that should make it a void instead of eternal fire that burns you on repeat in perpetuity.
@@Joemamahahahaha821 -...This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him. Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven? Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
@@fernandounda3681 maybe heaven and hell aren’t real and we don’t have to worry about this spiritual warfare between god and satan …. Because it is not real
So what I hear (at least partly) when you say "are you sure you are plugged in?" is "are you sure you are a good person"? Well, I definitely try to be, even without worshipping a God who does do things that seem to be tyrannical. And I definitely do like good things to come to me (and in all fairness, can't complain in that area). I'm definitely not saying "no" to goodness, so if there is a God and he/she/it decides to "cut me of the grid", it would be because he/she/it decides I don't deserve goodness. Not because I'm saying no to it. Also curious, you briefly admit that for example what happened to the Egyptians also happened to people who had no relationship work the pharaoh. So this happened to people who did want the goodness. It happened to babies who never even got the chance to develop enough to even be able to make the decision whether or not to stay connected to the grid. Very disappointed that you address that (all be it in a single sentence) and completely ignore that fact after that, even if it doesn't follow your arguments. But I'm gonna take a guess here: It's ok because they went to heaven, right?
Right? One of my reasons for not believing a good all powerfull god exists is because I got brain damage at birth which still gives problems to this day without a cure. Shouldn't a good almighty god prevent suffering for innocent kids? I have a good life thanks to the people and goverment around me, not because of god.
The God of the Bible is a false god, however, the reason you have suffering is for learning. If pain were eternal, it would be pointless, cruel & evil. However, we have suffering to learn from, and it helps God to grow in wisdom (as even God is still learning & growing)
@@MrBanksLP The real God who exists only knows the entire PAST and SOME of what is to happen in the future, so, no, not all knowing.. however, he is still growing in wisdom. (Edited for self correction)
@@TruthSpeaker. Um... what?? Sounds to me like you are calling yourself a god. No, the true God declared the end from the beginning and He has not been wrong one time.
2:03 _"no need for mental gymnastics or defining words in a certain way"_ … continues the entire video with elaborate mental gymnastics and defining words in a certain way.
where in the video does he use mental gymnastics? the entire video is built upon the single thesis that God is the source of goodness, and as far as I can tell everything he says follows directly from that.
@@cartoon.raccoon You probably meant "on the single premise", the thesis is what follows ... but that's neither here nor there, I understood what you meant. Anyway, starting with the premise that god is the source of goodness, is (ironically, might I add) the very source of the mental gymnastics. I can declare anything to be the source of goodness and argue my way around it. I can define satan to be the source of goodness and achieve the exact same outcome. Words and actions are being redefined in this video which are, in any other context, considered to be simply attritious ... but no, specifically for his god, we are led to believe (gaslit to believe) that eternal conscious torture is a sign of justice and goodness. I often hear Christians say: "The best trick the devil has played, is to convince the world he doesn't exist." I say, in the event gods and demons exist, they got close but missed a detail: "The best trick the devil has played, is to convince the world he is god." This becomes glaringly obvious when one reads the bible wthout the unsubstantiated forgone conclusion "god is good". This entire video is an excercise in mental gymnastics, trying to cover for an abusive god.
@@GapWim you’re right. that’s the reading you’ll get when you read the bible “as is”. it’s the mistake martin luther and the rest of the reformers made, just look at their theology and you’ll see what i mean. i’d argue that this premise that “God is the source of goodness” wasn’t plucked out of thin air, it was justifiably derived from the rest of the teachings of the church, and i personally think that Catholicism’s teachings are logically coherent and well-structured, as far as teachings based on the bible can be. it was enough to convert me from atheism, so i’d say there’s something there.
@@cartoon.raccoon I agree that one can't read the bible "as-is" and come away with the idea that god is good. That's why it requires a lot of mental gymnastics and redefining of words and concepts to gaslight people into believing the absolute monster described in the bible is the source of all goodness. The excuses given by Christianity in general, including the Catholic church are akin to an abuser telling its victim "I only hit you because I love you." Religion, and I find Christianty in partcular (maybe because I know it so well ... I was raised Catholic), is wholly focused on undermining the natural moral development in humans. It _quite litterally_ keeps people developing past the moral reasoning skills of a 6 year old child, 12 years at most when they're slow to mature. Please check out Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development. While not written or spoken out directly, their doctrines have the direct and damning effect that they are forbidden from developing past Level1 Stage1 of moral reasoning. This is unsurprising when one looks at the fact their text are from a 2000 year old ethos, based on a 3300 year old ethos, which are in their turn based on a 4000 year old ethos. There is 'some' evolution ... fortunately ... but it's still missing millenia of moral development in our culture. This lack of moral development is also the reason why it clashes with modern values towards relationships, bodily autonomy, marriage, homosexuality, transgenderism, science, birthcontrol, etc. ... Point in case: only in 1992 the Catholic church formally apologized for "the Galileo case". 350 years after committing him to lifelong house arrest, almost 400 years after burning Giodano Brono alive at the stake ... ... in 1992 they finally admitted the earth really revolves around the sun. This fact alone, utterly disqualifies this instiution from the claim they are divinely inspired. The excuse "humans make mistakes" is wholly insufficient to cover for these and many more (and worse) mistakes over the ages.
You are mostly poorly informed and deeply idiotic. This entire comment is utterly suffused with stupidity. It’s hard to know where to start. The Church adopted that heliocentric model pretty quickly and long before 1992.
Legit question that i'm trying to figure out: Doesnt God Know everything that Will happen? Then he would know that people would "unplug themselves" before Even creating them, he would know that people would be sent to hell before even making them, he would know every sin that You will make, and every action You Will take, that sort of waters down "Free Will" a ton
This is my problem too.. one could argue that you’re better off never having been born than to be born and wind up in hell for an eternity.. and nobody asks to be born, so how is this fair?
Yeah that’s an age old Christian dilemma. To be more specific it’s called predestination/Calvinism. Calvinists believe God predetermined who would enter Heaven. Although man technically ‘chooses’, he knew what man would choose in the end which means there’s an ‘elect’. Arminianism is the opposite belief. I’m pretty sure Catholics believe in a combination of both but it’s ultimately a ‘mystery’ that transcends human understanding.
The key point in my understanding is that God is in eternity rather than being subject to time. It's not a progression for him wherein God creates, then goes on to wait while already knowing everything you will later do - rather all of time is present to him at once. God can know everything you're going to freely do in the future because it has already happened in the context of eternity. Consider a historical figure such as George Washington - The fact that you, as a person in the 21st century, can have knowledge of the whole course of Washington's life, doesn't mean that Washington wasn't free to choose during the course of that life. It just means that your awareness of it stands outside the frame of the progression of those events. Washington, were he able to converse with you, couldn't say that your knowledge of his future takes away his free will.
I just responded to this and suggest you read St Thomas Aquinas as he is the foremost scholar on the subject. My simplified analogy is, if you knew me inside and out (let us say childhood friends) and were certain my future action would be somehow detrimental, does that mean that because you "know", my action is somehow impeded? You might try to talk me out of said action, again KNOWING what my course of action will be. But does that mean my will and ability to commit said action is now halted? No. Aquinas wrote: "God, therefore, is the first cause, who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their actions from being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary; but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them, for He operates in each thing according to his own nature.”
Only if he posts a list of everybody who's saved and everybody who's damned. I haven't seen a list remotely like that. I suspect the game is that YOU are operating on imperfect knowledge, and to see what you choose to do as a result of what you know.
If God sustains existence, how can somewhere exist where God does not exist? Can it be that for “hell” to “exist” there is an infinitely minimal goodness present for it to even exist. It might look like a quicksand that is sustained by God where we’re about to touch this sustained existence it just goes deeper and deeper…
REv.Aristotle's principle of privation is the one perfect and the only logico-philosophical answer; the rest are only babbling and metaphors. Bible's authors represent very often a typical Semite attitude who do not have a clue at all about the Rev.Aristotle's divine tools of logic and here, the types of causality (four) for example, Isaiah 45:7, Deut 32:39 also in NT, esp. by "John", also by (maybe) very Jesus himself in Q source, Mat 11:25-27/Lk 10:21-22.
If Hell is locked from within, then shouldn't some be willing to unlock it and leave???? Especially those sentenced there for the capital crime of not being convinced that the evidence merits belief?
Yes they can leave but they won't that's way they stay there forever. The problem with the after life is that choice does not change with time it solidifies in one choice forever
@@ltc1223 people change their minds all the time, especially when presented with information not previously known or realized. If hell turns out to be true, are you really suggesting that NOBODY will be willing to take into account that they were mistaken in life and have a desire to leave??? A place of forever torment???
A woman goes to seek help with a priest. Woman: "Priest, I need your advice.... I know someone that says that they love me, and wants to be with me forever. He says that everything he has done is for me, and he knows everything about me. He apparently has been watching me since I was a kid. He says he wants me to be his, because he loves me. But if I do not reciprocate, he will torture me. He says that he has an special place of torture he personally made for me, in case I do not love him back. What should I do? Priest: "You should contact the police, and place a restraining order. Stay away from him" Her: "But he says he loves me" Priest: "No love should ever be conditional, if he truly loved you, he wouldn't torture you if you do not want to be with him. It would be painful to let you go, but he would let you go. That is what true love is. By him wanting you for himself, it shows he doesn't really love you. Someone that truly loves you should want the best for you." Woman: "But I am truly concerned he will follow on his promise, and truly lock me up and torture me" Priest: "Well, you should pray to God and seek guidance. Pray to him, he will help you. After all, he is the one that truly loves you" WOman: "To God?! But he is the one I have been talking about this whole time"
You came here from TMM. And Your hateful Repetition of Your Holy Religion of Atheism;s Jokes only proives how this is Polemic and not Reason and that You are irrational and Childish.
This is exactly the opposite of God. He loves you so much that He's willing to respect your free will if you don't want to love Him back. This scenario you made up in your head is nonsensical.
Why does your power plant need worship? Why does it find the smell of burnt offerings pleasing? Why does it need blood sacrifice at all? Yeah, I'd rather read in by candle light, than pay fealty to this creature you believe in.
These are the 4 questions that Christians and other religious cannot answer (not in any particular order since they are all related). # - Why would the almighty immortal create a being in order to worship him? # - Why does God endow His creation with reason and free will yet punsh us for exercising these faculties by doubting questioning or disbelieving in him or doing anything other than worship and obey him? # - Why does the all-good and all-loving God allow those who believe in him, worship him and obey Him to suffer? # - Why does the all-good and all-loving God permit evil?
I'm just getting started in my faith, and therefore I'm not saying that I'm right. I will try to answer your questions. why would he want us to worship him. Because if he is the good one, which is beautiful, it would be quite logical that he wants us to love this side of the world rather than the ugly side. secondly, it is not because you have the choice that you are free of consequences, on the contrary. but this is already answered in the video. third, we are sinners, so we do evil, it is in our nature. and often it is more difficult to oppose evil than to embrace it. Life is a battle against yourself which is difficult, and if it wasn't the case it would have no meaning. fourth, if he allows evil, it is precisely because he leaves us free will. if we could only do good, this would not be the case.
@@long-limbs-alias-sisifr You have clearly failed to understand my questions. That is because you are blinded by faith and can't the difference between 'subjective' and 'objective' Faith is a subjective personal irrational belief that is not founded in nor dependant on rational, logical or empirical evidence. A Sceptic is one who asks questions and requires evidence.
ST. POPE JOHN PAUL II: : “Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair... The concept of hellfire, the fiery furnace and the unquenchable fire of Gehenna need to be interpreted as symbolic language... The risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry, ‘Abba, Father!’” (Rm 8:15; Gal 5:6).
Hell is a difficult concept. And the idea that Hell is a place received by those who actively reject goodness. But would that not allow for caring generous non-Christians to enter Heaven?
I definitely agree with the idea that Hell is locked from the inside. While I don't know if Hell is a crowded place, I think that those who are in Hell chose to go there and chose to stay there.
CS Lewis, quite possibly the greatest Christian philosopher of the 20th century. His profundity never fails to impress. Even more inspiring to think that such a brilliant man was a steadfast agnostic at one point and that his friendship with the great Tolkien (the greatest author of the 20th and beyond) is what helped him see the Light, almost like Saul of Tarsus or as we know him, St Paul
@@Roman-Labrador you know you make a good point. I think it goes more depending on the person. For example, the judgment of a Catholic will be different than an Atheist.
God, in his unconditional love, has given us the free will to decide that. What is your choice? My choice is to follow Jesus, as he is the way. I may fail often (too often), but it is the way I now want to be on.
*sigh* Well, here it is. This question, for me as an agnostic, is one of the big ones, the deal breakers that renders the Biblical narrative nonsensical. I do appreciate that you acknowledge and respect the difficulty of this issue, you don't just dismiss it as a simple misconception and laugh it off. So points for that. But after that is where I start to disagree. At the risk of sounding extremely arrogant, I get the impression that Christians (willfully or not) tend not to think through the implications of God. If He exists as depicted in the Bible, then we are to believe that He created everything. Not just the good things, but EVERYTHING. He created every form of negativity, too. This might be countered with the assertion that Satan or humanity created those things when they sinned for the first time, but no. Bare minimum, if God knows everything that will ever happen ahead of time, then He created Satan and humanity KNOWING IN ADVANCE that we would sin. He knew it, and He let it play out anyway, which is as good as doing it Himself. We can then logically extrapolate that He creates each individual human knowing beforehand each and every sin that they will commit. He knows in advance whether each individual will choose to obey Him, and therefore He creates people that He knows He will condemn to Hell. Let me repeat that: He knows before a sinner is born that He will be sending that sinner to Hell. And He creates the sinner anyway. Free will never enters the picture if He knows what you will do before you do it. If He already knows you will go to Hell, and He loves you, why does He create you? Then there's Hell itself. A lot of Christians like to downplay it in the words they use to describe it. It is ETERNAL TORTURE. Torture beyond anything we can imagine, and it will never, ever, ever, stop. For any reason. That's not punishment. Being spanked, that's a punishment. Being fined ten thousand dollars, that's a punishment. Life in prison is a punishment. ETERNAL, UNCEASING, ABSOLUTELY RELENTLESS TORTURE is not punishment. We can't even wrap our heads around what that is. No form of negativity any human has ever inflicted even approaches the evil that Hell is. And God is prepared to send me there because I don't believe what's written in a two thousand year old book? Then there's your description of what rejecting Christianity is like, which is frankly disgusting. Do you honestly believe that every non-Christian is filled with anger and hatred and bitterness and just experiences no good at all? Why in the world would anyone become a Hindu or a Buddhist or any other religion if doing so cuts them off from the source of positivity? You think they all just sit around counting the ways they've been wronged and plotting against each other? That's your perception of the rest of the world?
Christians definitely think those things through. Some better than others, and some would argue exactly what you just said (the Calvinists. I don't agree with them). I remember thinking exactly what you just said back when I was 11, and it drove me to literal insanity. That exact thought that God basically built people to be evil made me almost suicidal. I forget the exact reason why I eventually came out of it, but it seemed like an excuse to simply reject the good that I never had a right to, just as those who commit evil do so by rejecting the opportunity to do good with the good they were given. I noticed, in my experience of it, my own free will operating, even if I couldn't metaphysically justify it. There are philosophers who do a pretty good job of metaphysically explaining it, but personally that particular issue doesn't bug me enough to look into it. I suggest you do, since it does bother you to that extent, rather than relying solely on your own understanding of it. I hope that doesn't sound condescending, I don't mean to be, but whenever I rely solely on myself and people who aren't "the best" on the issue to think things through, I notice myself entering Hell. On your issue with Hell itself, it's not necessarily the case that Hell is "eternal torture". Many Christians believe it is, but many of the Church Fathers, and even many instances in the Bible, suggest otherwise. Torture for the sake of torture isn't sensible, you're right. A common understanding of it is that Hell is a failure to participate in God properly. Such a failure may mean that any "contact" with God is impossible and the soul gets "banished" from the source of good (as explained in this video), and what exactly this implies for that soul isn't entirely certain, and Christians actually can't judge who does and who doesn't end up in that circumstance. That's all up to God. The nature of it is inherently mysterious, but the known path away from it--the Christian life-- is not. Another explanation which makes sense, and is found in many very old Christian thoughts, is that Hell is incorrect participation in God; that is, everyone will be in the presence of God, but not everyone will be properly "oriented" towards Him. His light would flood everyone, but the experience of that light would be different depending on one's own acceptance or rejection of it. For those who reject it, it would be terrible, while those who accept it would experience communion with God Himself. Again, who would be in one position and who would be in the other, no one can say for certain. In these cases, some Christians would argue that there is a remote possibility that nonChristians may be saved, but that the clarity of this being the case is not worth the risk. In any case, knowing that God is merciful and just and has already given us so much good we don't deserve, there is good reason to believe--whatever your persuasion--that the issue of Hell is only an issue of our understanding, but not a true issue for God Himself. Btw, I'm not saying these are certainly true. But I am saying that these are two types of dominant interpretations of Hell that are well argued for and contradict the "Hell fire is fire" sort of thing. Obviously, what I'm saying here doesn't solve anything, but I am saying that you might want to look into these things instead of relying on yourself and what your understanding of the Christian doctrine is. For your last point, I don't think that Fr. was saying what you said he was saying, or at least he didn't seem to intend that. It looks like you're projecting prior experiences with Christians onto this particular one. Were he to respond (I doubt he will due to business), I'm certain he would clarify his position for you. Anywho, I hope you have a good day. The sun is out and the air is there to breathe.
@@educationalporpoises9592 Yes, I probably am projecting some things, and certainly came across as harsher than I should've. I apologize to Fr., if he happens to read this. With regards to your other points, I just.... wonder why there has to be any mystery at all. Why are such critical ideas that determine the eternal fate of your soul made so complex and open to interpretation? Why are seemingly good, welcoming alternative religions allowed to exist if they actively pull billions of people away from God? I just feel like the One True Correct Path should be as easily understood as possible, and lit up in neon so no one can accidentally miss it. And I realize I'm piling more questions onto the plate here, but they're mostly rhetorical, so. This stuff just irritates me. It made me actively antagonistic toward Christianity for a while, there, although nowadays I try to look for the good as much as possible. It's easy to forget to do that. There is a lot of real good and helpful wisdom in this religion, whether it's the full, literal truth or not.
Foreknowledge is not fore-willing. Every aspiring parent knows the highly likely possibility of their child disobeying them, but they go ahead and have children anyway. God began with a perfect world and perfect beings. Even Lucifer was perfect when he was created, but the fact that "God is love" demands the existence of choice in all that associate with him regardless of whether they are created or not. It is a very high risk. Notice also that He knew it would cost Him His life when He would walk among us, we would spit on Him and despise Him, even driving Him to the point of deadly sorrow, yet He took the risk. If He knew all this, why then go ahead and create? Because He wants a creation that He relates with in a loving relationship, not automatons. Besides, Hell is NOT burning now, and, when kindled, it will NOT burn eternally- this is unbiblical. Just take time and read carefully
@@Antobuya Could you give me some sources you have for claiming hell won't burn eternally? I've heard similar claims before, but I've never found at scripture or other sources supporting it.
Thank you, Father Casey, for explaining so beautifully! I learned the story of Hell being closed from the inside ("The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis) from a sermon several weeks ago at my little Episcopal church. I really like your power plant illustration - that really makes sense. I don't want to be separated from God's love! I spent decades being selfish, resentful, self-hating, terrified, jealous and cynical. I truly feel God has rescued me, and I'm grateful. I ask for God's guidance and hope I will continue to grow in faith, trust and love - and stay connected to God.
I don’t always agree with what Fr. Casey has to say in his videos but I’m happy to say that he’s pretty spot on in this video. Most people don’t understand the nature of God’s Justice because His justice isn’t like human justice. He has no lack of love in His Justice because He IS Love itself. He IS Truth. People like George Carlin think the 10 commandments are unfair and cruel but if they are followed they only lead to our happiness and flourishing (and those around us). As humans we selfishly grasp after pleasure and lose true happiness as a result. Fr. Casey’s example of Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” is a great example of this. What Fr. Casey didn’t mention is that, in the book there is a single moment where each person has an opportunity to “choose between” simply letting go of whatever selfishness or sin they are holding onto and accept the free gift of heaven or turn away in order to hold onto selfishness, greed, lust (etc) and move on to their own individual hell - separating themselves from everyone (and God in particular).
Wouldn't a loving God forgive one who went to hell and suddenly realized his or her mistake? Seems rather psychopathic to me since God would be aware of each being's suffering every moment...
okay question: how does one reconcile the fact that a person can have a sincere belief that God doesn't exist but can have myriad good things in their life.
Let's suppose that God exists. If this is true then an atheists belief that God doesn't exist doesn't change the fact that God is. Now with that said even if one does not believe (in God) and if God is the source of all good then one could not do good without participating in God's grace.
Because God lets the “sun shine its light” both to the good and even to the bad as well. Because God still saves those who sincerely believe that He doesn’t exist by reason not of their own fault but are unknowingly doing His will of loving His brethren, because doing so is loving Him. And both of these facts are explicit in the Bible. And all these three realities are manifestations of the ever infinite and patient love and mercy of God.
As a cultural catholic I always wondered this viewpoint, I think if there was a deity then I believe they would have their own choices in regards to dealing with Humanity
The demons are damned and will have their prey. The grand cosmic game - a contest for souls - is played to the rules. The demons hate God but they hate humanity even more. They contest for our damnation by wagering their own. The stakes are high - our immortal souls.
The thing I don’t understand about this argument: “God doesn’t want cyborgs. He wants free thinking beings.” So will we be free thinking beings in heaven? Or will we always know that we can sin and get kicked out of heaven? And if we can’t sin in heaven, are we free? And if we are free and sinless in heaven, couldn’tGod make us that way on earth? But simply chooses not to?
If God choose to make people sinless they wouldn't be free, all sin and evil comes from mans own free will to disobey God. We freely choose between sin and grace while on Earth, living in a state of Grace in heaven means we could choose sin, but simply wouldnt want to for the same reason we wouldnt jump off a 100 ft cliff now.
@@haronsmith8974 thank you for your reply. Couldn’t God have chosen to create us all in a “state of grace” on earth? I understand He’s not obligated to. I’m asking about the speakers statement that if we can only choose good we aren’t free, and that is why sin and punishment are necessary. You seem to be saying we will only choose good in heaven and we will also be free because we will be in a state of grace. Wouldn’t it follow that God could have done that on earth? Where we are free and good? and there’s no need for punishment?
@@christian1172-z9e Church Fathers have answered this, it requires a bigger scope of understanding so just a little patience. This is the story of Adam and Eve in Paradise, where the world was made that made sense. Adam and Eve would have lived on for eternity glorifying God and everything around them. Adam and Eve were also in a state of Grace, and could freely do whatever they wanted in Paradise with their free will. God even gave them the option to disobey him with the apple, which they did and ate from. The moment they eat this Apple they commit the first sin "Original Sin". With this sin committed they no longer are in communion with the Lord, and since God is the "Creator" they then slowly begin to die. Also since they are no longer in communion with the Lord they no longer have the "beatific vision" and everything becomes short term pursuits of the ego rather than long term commits to everything. (Essentially the world becomes darwinistic in nature and cruel.) All children of Adam and Eve are also fallen being, and we have cut the lord out of this world. People start naturally dying from sin, the world spins imperfect for millenia. People start living vain short lives and are just forgotten. God is justice, and he is nature. He is simply letting man reap what they have sowed. Even when Christians are saved they are granted "new life" because this is forfeit which means they are still going to die, and in the end God will even remake everything to be perfect once again.
But what if someone does good works, is a good tree that bears good fruit, and is humble and generous and selfless, but they don’t believe in God or Jesus. They do everything right except for believe. So they still don’t deserve to be a part of that power grid? When someone says “you don’t have to do as I say, but if you don’t you will starve, wither and die” that’s not really a choice at all.
What Jesus taucht is that we are all sinners. We all deserve hell. Accepting yourself as a sinner is a part of being christian. By admiting to doing wrong you are forgiven by god.
@@ivoh7842 I should clarify that I am Christian and believe in Jesus Christ, but I just fundamentally cannot agree with Fr. Casey’s interpretation here for what I stated above. If I’m understanding what you’re saying, you’re suggesting that by understanding your flaws and admitting to them in an effort to do good, you find forgiveness in the lord? Because I would agree, but that person who does all that but isn’t specifically a “Christian” should also receive the same forgiveness. Because if God rewards goodness, goodness can come independent of a religion. If not, then God is only rewarding those who chose to be on his side, which would be the opposite of good, and the opposite of graceful.
@@Brokenlance We could include in this category all those who did not get to choose to be on his side. If you are born in a polytheist culture and nobody told you about this loving God, how much are you connected to him (power plant analogy)? How will you know there is a choice to make, other than sticking to the moral code of your culture?
I really love your channel and your attitude, but I don't really think you addressed the main point you're trying to refute, at least I didn't feel as though you did. As someone who doesn't believe in God or in Hell, you spent a lot of time talking about how Hell is justifiable because without God humans lack goodness. You list the sins that those without God would inevitably have, but how many nonbelievers do you know? I'm not greedy, lustful, selfish, etc. and am great friends and have wonderful relationships with my catholic friends. Saying that Hell is justified because nonbelievers lack goodness seems like a really easy way for christians to simply say "I am simply a better person than you by divine right" the same way monarchs used to rule via mandates from heaven. What about those born in countries that aren't Christian who were never exposed to your god? Is it impossible for them to contain the goodness you describe, despite them easily being capable of living just and good lives?
It would be interesting if the channel host would address this. I think teaching religious people to think that non-religious people are bad "have no goodness" is very dangerous.
He respects our free will? King James Bible: Exodus 9:12 "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses." Definition of harden one's heart : to stop having kind or friendly feelings for someone or caring about something. She hardened her heart against him after their breakup. All the discord hardened my heart to politics. No, he doesn't. If he respected Pharaoh's free will, he would have NOT messed with his heart. God FORCED him to disregard Moses' warning. Hell is a place of eternal torment, suffering, agony, torture, and evil. God CREATED Hell. First he damns all of humanity for the actions of TWO PEOPLE who were innocent of the consequences. Then he sends himself to sacrifice to himself to protect us from him. But that "salvation" has a condition; believe in him. If you don't, you go to Hell, even though he clearly said he died for ALL OUR SINS, disbelief & disobedience IS SIN, so if people are still going to Hell then either he died for nothing or he lied. I wouldn't wish Hell on anyone, no matter how bad they were in life, NOTHING can justify an eternity of endless torture. But God would send ANYONE to Hell for the most trivial things imaginable. So yes, he most definitely is a Bloodthirsty Tyrant. And he isn't good because he's the source, its really that he is the most powerful, and he follows "Might Makes Right", where the weak are trampled by the strong. That doesn't make him good, it just reinforces the fact that he is evil.
You have it completely backwards. God is not the powerplant, he is the lightbulb. He is powerd by people believing in him. When all Christians size to exist he does aswell, just like every other forgotten god.
I don't mean for this to come off as combative or to ridicule, but as a genuine question. If God is the source of all goodness, can people who deny God be good people? Is it possible for people to behave in a good, moral way out of compassion for their fellow human beings, while simultaneously rejecting the notion of God? Is God acting through these people despite their rejection of Him? Would He still punish them, despite living good, moral lives, simply for their nonbelief?
God gives common graces to everyone alive, this is not the same as salvific grace, Jesus says that we must believe in Him and follow Hos commandments, if someone does not believe then they are not doing what Jesus told them to do
The answer above is good. I would also add that people are not punished only for their unbelief. They are punished for the sins which they commit. We must be saved from the sins that we commit in addition to living holy lives, but no one except for Christ can earn salvation. Rather, we must accept Christ's gift and pledge allegiance to Him. A failure to do that, what you described as non-belief, will result in being cut off from God. Hope this helps.
The Bible says nobody is good except God. We are all sinners, including the believers. We are not good people. We are saved through the blood of Jesus and not on our own merit. There is not a single way for someone to be a good person apart from Jesus because that term is dealing with Gods moral code, which is the 10 commandments. God only called creating humans "good" until they sinned. We are not good and no, this isnt relative or perspective. Gods perspective determines goodness because He is the only One that does not change.
@@StillProtesting I'm a good person and an atheist. I have friends who are good people and are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists. . . none of us believe in Jesus. Your statement is flawed.
The problem with claiming 'god/Yahweh' is the source of all goodness is that it's just a claim and other religious gods have that claim too. But any god that would make an infinite punishment for a finite crime cannot be considered good or just.
Nope if God is the source of good then anything he does can't be seen as bad. Why? Because you can't judge the standard of good with it's own standard that doesn't make any sense. You would have to find a higher standard of mortality that transcends God to judge if he's good or not... Which doesn't exist.
@@Patchlock61 The point is simply to illustrate that Christians have considered Yahweh to be 'fair'; but any rational human being should know that it isn't fair to condemn people forever for something they don't know or can't verify. It's vindictive in fact to do something that callous. That's why I also mentioned that Yahweh claiming to be the creator is just a claim. A claim that can't verified and is claimed by other alleged dieties.
@@multi-milliondollarmike5127 he is being fair let's say you live to 90 years old you had 90 years to get right with God if you die without getting right with him that's on you. He also gave us a way to be saved through Jesus and again if you die without getting saved THAT'S ON YOU. Dying in your sins is an unforgivable sin. He's being fair by giving you still much time.
@@Patchlock61 Not fair as in an infinite punishment for a finite crime. He was also culpible in creating sin because he knew what would happen with Adam and Eve who were new and ignorant to the world and still allowed it. Then instead of just creating another set of humans who were sinless or even simply just wiping out sin immediately he allowed it to exist and persist from generation to generation. This god allows people to be born guilty because of his incompetence or apathy. I could go on about this, but I digress. There's also the problem of people just being skeptical of the claims of the Bible and who don't believe. They'd be damned for recognizing that absurd things are absurd, like talking snakes, talking donkeys, virgin births, etc. People don't believe Yahweh is real, and we're all just expected to believe anyway despite the fact that other dieties claim to be the creator of everything. Not one has demonstrated that they are real, and even if they could it still wouldn't mean they're worthy of being served or praised.
POPE JOHN PAUL II: Can God, who loves man so much, permit the man who rejects him to be condemned to eternal torment? The silence of the church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt. 26:24) his words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.
Has the creator ask that what it wanted to create to be created? (contradictio in terminis) It seems not. Then the creator is fully responsible for every action that it's creations makes. No threats from the creator to it's creations. It is also a weakness of the creator to threaten with hell. Why not sending some of all what is created back where it came from. But no, because then it's lost power over it's creation. Mankind makes every thing up about the creator and it's creating of things. Especially MEN.
I have a question, a thought experiment of sorts, and I was wondering if anyone could give it either validity or condemnation. For the sake of my willingness to learn and my own personal vice of curiosity. While the contents of this video is something I’ve held to myself and feel comfort in, it does still leave me thinking if the souls sent to such a place are entirely devoid of rescue. So, my thinking is (and if anyone knows any official reference to the topic I would appreciate any direction) that punishment in Hell seems to always go in tandem with a duration of time. “Until the end of time”, “Forever”, even eternity is by definition a state of time; though I admit it may be a stretch for my thinking. Continuing this though, God created time yes? So He isn’t beholden to any laws of time, only creation is. So God and I would imagine Heaven would be outside of what time could be. At least as far as we could understand it. And I’m under the thinking that even time as we would understand it would have an end, all of creation has an end as it has a beginning. My thinking then is: at the end of everything, even time itself, could those trapped in Hell be freed and redeemed? I know that this isn’t an idea to treat with any real value, but it’s more of a wishful thought. That even people that trap themselves in the dark won’t stay there forever. Of course I’m open to being entirely wrong as well, I just wanted to throw this out there to see what fish I catch. So to speak. Thank you for your time.
I am happy that I'm not the only one to wish that there is some hope for people in hell. It is understandeable that by refusing the love of God one can condamn themself, but what if they came to regret it? For me it doesn't make sense for them to suffer more. You're right about God creating time, but it doesn't nessesarily mean that it will end at some point. For God to destroy time is to destroy everything, which is pretty much wasted effort for God, but more importantly He wouldn't destroy us if He loves us, right? If we would argue that time would end by natural causes, we would get to the Heat Death of the Universe, which is basically universe being frozen, which doesn't work for your theory as souls aren't material. I recon we can just pray that nobody will be in hell forever.
I was just having this same thought. My hope is that they'll cease to exist after time has ended. Sort of like an eternal sleep. But there's nothing further that's biblical to support that.
There's actually an entire theological tradition of universal reconciliation, some which work on similar premises to those you've presented. David Bentley Hart's "That All Shall Be Saved" is a modern and accessible argument for universal eventual salvation which you might find interesting. It is interesting that the Greek Church fathers, in some ways closest to the New Testament, believed in universal reconciliation. The idea that this is wishful thinking seems to be circular reasoning which already assumes that there is nothing Biblically that could support this belief.
I definitely agree with the fact that Hell will come to an end. For how can there be, "no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither... any more pain..." Rev. 21:4 if there shall still be souls burning in hell? The question that has driven many to atheism has been the paradoxical logic of a God who delights in mercy burning "souls" eternally. I am persuaded that even "...death and hell..." shall be "...cast into the lake of fire..." Rev. 20:14
If time is in the physical realm and hell is not, then when the world will come to an end, time itself will come to an end, but hell will not because it doesn't exist in the physical realm (in which time exists).
Thank you for this, Fr. I wish I had you for my Theology degree lectures. You have a great talent for simplifying what can be difficult theological concepts.
I believe this all makes sense, but the better question we should be asking is what hell is like? Similar to most Christians, I grew up being taught of it as a place where you feel unimaginable pain that never stops and nor gets satisfied. This of course did not sit right with me and my perspective of Christianity started to change. After abandoning the traditional concept of hell, I've discovered annihilationism, which simply means you die. Whether or not you suffer for some time in hell or instantly die is highly debatable. In summary annihilationism is basically what an Atheist believes, but the only difference is that it only applies to the rejecters of God. I believed annihilationism for about a year, but even though I saw it as a more tolerable concept to believe, it still didn't seem humane under God's conditions. This is when I've discovered Universalism. These group of Christians believe that God will eventually save everyone sooner or later. In the Universalism community, they disagree on whether or not hell exists, but they can all agree that if it does, it's for the sake of your soul being cleansed which you may know as purgatory. Universalism is what I now believe in. I'm not confident in my belief, but considering how many different arguments that can be made on what is precisely true, the best thing us Christians can do is follow what we think is right. I don't mean that independently, but more of what I mean is follow what you think God would do. There's thousands of Christian literature out there, and all of it was written by humans who are flawed and biased towards their opinions. In total summary, believe in what you think, feel, and faithfully makes you the best human you could possibly be.
Sure, I can say “That doesn’t sound like how I would set things up”…. But, then again, I am NOT the almighty, sovereign, holy, righteous creator of the universe and my soul. I don’t see the “big picture” like he does. So, I will defer to him, even if it is contrary to what I would do. I figure looking at the Bible is the way to go. It is the truth, scary or not. And it tells me that if I believe the following gospel of salvation, I am saved and don’t have to worry about hell at all: - we are ALL sinners, and those sins leave a disgusting stain on us that prevents us from entering heaven. - good deeds don’t erase sins; i.e. we cannot erase the stain of our sins. No matter what we do, we cannot EARN our way into Heaven. - Jesus (God the Son) volunteered to suffer and die on the cross in order to save us; he took the punishment for our sins. - because of what Jesus did, all of our sins are forgiven; he essentially bought our ticket to Heaven with his blood. - 3 days after his death, Jesus was resurrected in a glorified body. - by being thankful for Jesus’ sacrifice, and feeling sorry for my sins and making a commitment to try and please God and stay away from sin … and accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I AM SAVED! Easy peasy. I have no need to worry about hell.
@@relaxAndBeCool I'm not scared of myself going to hell as I do love Jesus and accept him into my heart with all my being. What I have a problem with however, is the idea of anyone being in hell forever. I'm not the kindest nor most selfless person you'll ever meet, but I do have enough compassion to a degree where I want everyone regardless of what they've done to be saved. Since God's love is greater than mine and the rest of humanity combined, I believe he will save everyone. Some will suffer through intense pain until they accept Jesus in purgatory, but in the end all will be okay. Not just myself and my fellow Christians, everyone. If I love everyone enough to not want anyone to go to hell forever, God is the same way but an infinite times more loving, caring, forgiving, and compassionate than I am and anyone else will ever be. Am I certain I'm right? No. None of us are perfect, but I have faith. I'll see you in heaven, fellow Christian.
Most early church fathers agreed with you: "Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_ "When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_ "What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_ "A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_ "Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_ "The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_ "So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_ "For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_ "Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_ "'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_ "Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_ "After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_ Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.* Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5, 1905 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
In his omniscience, God knew that a large portion of humanity would be tortured in hell for eternity. So why did he create man with flaws and weaknesses inclined toward sin and hell? Sounds sadistic! Is this "justice"?
In pondering these questions myself over the years, I have come to wonder if Hell is less a place of "active" punishment and more of a void ... in essence, the absence of God's presence, the absence of His goodness and therefore without the sources of comfort, healing, and relief that His presence would offer: truly, the dark, lonely and eternal night of the soul. Hell, indeed.
My understanding of it is... the flames of hell are that of God's love. The way the individual reacts to His love depends upon the state of his soul. In gehenna we are not capable of love, so we only feel hatred and the total pain of loss, knowing our willful rejection of God. The pain of purgatory is a pain of longing, very difficult. Do your best my friend.
@@AceyBleach, that's how I see the flames of hell as well. Also, the person is fighting that love, possibly because of such things as pride, hate, and unforgiveness. I recall a private revelation, possibly Fatima, where the seers saw flames emanating from those in hell as well as external flames. Perhaps such internal flames were the above mentioned pride, etc.
I've pictured Hell as worse than fire, it's a cessation of existence, where all there is is pain. Kinda like voluntarily walking into a woodchipper, a fate far worse than death. I proceeded to have a bit of a panic attack thinking about all the people who, through their own decisions, had chosen that, because I didn't want that to happen to anybody. What helped me was the realization that we can pray for people retroactively (this is possible because God is beyond time), so I do, as often as I can, and hope that it helps. It's not as concrete as I wish it was, but at least it's something
You do do it to yourself. He is not gonna force anyone to love him and so he is not gonna force anyone to come to heaven. Imagine forcing someone to marry you?
@@Joe-uw5rvyeah ur free to choose, if you dont choose the right thing thoe your gonna get tourtured for eternity, and also maybe your judt not lucky and you will not get the right life path to love me
@@haitaelpastor976 You're taking the analogy too literally. It is simple: There is nothing outside of God that has goodness absolutely. God invites everyone to share in that goodness for all eternity. If you freely choose to reject God and place yourself outside His goodness you will find yourself in a place and state that is hell, which is the absence of God, and all the torture that comes with it.
Im not religious anymore, i was controlled by the fear that a Loving God will send you to hell because of a few rules you broke and you dont believe him. Im human, and i wouldnt want anyone i love to go to such a horrible and torturous place. Even if they disowned me and never wanted anything to do with me. Id still want them in a Heaven type place. So the fact that i have more compassion and love for my loved ones more then a *God is kinda dumb.* I dont mind Religion, because it can bring great comfort to people. Especially my grandmother. Theres a great interview done by *Keith Morrison of Dateline NBC back in August of 2006.* You can find the full interview on TH-cam but its too long to copy and paste here, so ill shortened it a bit. Retired Episcopal bishop *John Shelby Spong* said the following : *"I don’t think Hell exists. I happen to believe in life after death, but I don’t think it’s got a thing to do with reward and punishment. Religion is always in the control business, and that’s something people don’t really understand. It’s in a guilt-producing control business. And if you have Heaven as a place where you’re rewarded for you goodness, and Hell is a place where you’re punished for your evil, then you sort of have control of the population. And so they create this fiery place which has quite literally scared the Hell out of a lot of people, throughout Christian history. And it’s part of a control tactic. But I think there’s a sense in most religious life of reward and punishment in some form. The church doesn’t like for people to grow up, because you can’t control grown-ups. That’s why we talk about being born again. When you’re born again, you’re still a child. People don’t need to be born again. They need to grow up. They need to accept their responsibility for themselves and the world.* *Every church I know claims that ‘we are the true church’ - that they have some ultimate authority, ‘We have the infallible Pope,’ ‘We have the Bible.’… The idea that the truth of God can be bound in any human system, by any human creed, by any human book, is almost beyond imagination for me."* *I mean, God is not a Christian. God is not a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindi or Buddhist. All of those are human systems, which human beings have created to try to help us walk into the mystery of God. I honor my tradition. I walk through my tradition. But I don’t think my tradition defines God. It only points me to God."* Im not telling people what to believe, thats up to you. idk exactly what to believe myself, but i absolutely hate the idea of the Church using the fear as a tool to gain people. It probably started way back in History, and they are just going along with it because its written down, but it needs to change now, because Theres no freedom that way. You should watch the full interview, its quite good
“Not because God is angry and jealous..” With so many verses in the Bible saying God is angry and jealous, you can say this with a straight face is beyond comprehension.
You really have a way of simplify things and making it easy to understand. Even though I am not 100 percent sure there is a God, I still wish to choose the light.
@@renferal5290I went through a similar process at the start of covid. I’d highly recommended watching youtubers like ‘Inspiring philosophy’ who has a lot of science related arguments for god. Or ‘Capturing Christianity’ who’s known for interviewing Christian scholars on tough topics. Or if you wanna go deeper down the rabbit whole I’d order some books. I can recommend some if you’d like.
This is just an opinion from a non expert. I simply tried to answer to the best of my abilities. The children have been thrown a life preserver in the form of Jesus Christ. And for free will... If you have a safety net or are trapped in a protective bubble, are you truly free? Perhaps you don't really like the idea of free will in the first place. God wants truly free people with free will.
@@darnit1944 Yeah that's very difficult to apprehend. I'm also not an expert, far from it, because I turned into theological questions only recently. Just trying to have questions, to not fall into blind obedience to man-made myths. Not closing the door to Jesus, far from it. A bit sceptical of maybe how man have used religion and maybe scriptures for power though. But I'm just learning and my point of view have little value.
@@EmilienBandrac You raised a really good question. But don't let that doubt ruins your relationship with God. He gave us the capability of rational thoughts for a reason. When you find your answer, I hope your faith grows even stronger. And perhaps share it with me since i am also curious.
Honest question. This is not meant as a gotcha, or some sort trick question. I really want to know. If hell is the absence of God. And god wants us to come to him willingly, giving us free choice in the matter. Then why wouldn't your god simply grant us oblivion. We didn't choose to exist. He made us against our will. Why then condemn us to an eternity of suffering if we can simply return to the nothing from before?
I was raised Catholic and everything you said was flipped for me, I desperately clung to prayer and still felt alone, trying to act as god wanted left me feeling inadequate, and the idea of god having a plan made me panic, because what if I wasn’t doing something that was part of that plan. And after years of struggling with faith, I left it because I realized that nobody was listening. I still get anxious about things, but I’m so much better than I was. Now I’m an active atheist, but I watch your channel because it’s different than the American evangelicals saying that evolution is wrong. I do enjoy your content, but I’m honestly thinking of starting my own to do response videos.
Your own 'response' programming, now, that would be interesting, C J. Your response, above, is rather revealing - about you .. in what you seem to 'expect' from others; and, rather like 'The Young Pope' character in his struggles it is a genuinely honest human subject - self (if still profoundly misunderstood by oneself). The Catholic understanding of the concept 'God', however, is not as if one personal being hustling along mightily among others, but of Being per se, from which being and beings arise (including through free-will, evolution, bio-chemistry and matter); now that is a little startling, indeed we'd lie to ourselves if we rejected the 'fear' aka awe it involves - but what we basically struggle against is not another 'self' but 'Being' (so far beyond our limited control or convention); divine planning is clearly very different to human control (or we would not be - us). Where Does Life Come From? Evolution and God's Creation w/ Fr. Dominic Legge, O.P. (Aquinas 101) TH-cam (so don't expect a lesson in brain surgery). ;o)
Congrats on active Atheism. I can understand doubt and the need to investigate these things for oneself. I to at one time was Agnostic, Atheist , I did investigate other religions and faiths for about 30.years. Even Satanism was investigated with no fear on my part and no "evil" outcome came of that. What did come with all those years of study and open minded investigation was I could make an intelligent and well informed decision concerning my life. Experiences with Jesus happened often during this time of research ( experiences I tried to dismiss) and that was paramount to my decision. Keep seeking my friend You will find what you are looking for. Be Blessed +t+
@@TheLeonhamm I realize, youtube comment makes it hard communicate complex ideas, but from what I think you are saying, involves god being less of a who and more like a force of nature? (I could very well be wrong) but the duplicity of “god is mysterious” vs god definitely intervened in the bible, is god an active agent or one that sits back and watches? And when I was a believer I would have sworn up and down that I understood the trinity, but even the church calls it a mystery of faith because it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Being outside of it all and understanding the blood atonement for original sin along with the constant barrage of messages telling me I was broken and sinful, didn’t leave me feeling gods love, I searched and prayed until I finally realized I was talking to myself whenever I thought I felt gods answer. It’s a broken system that causes a lot of harm. And this is without going into the atrocity’s that institution of the church has done with things like residential schools in Canada. I dunno, stepping away was good for me, but I’ve come to enjoy the conversation around it.
@@lonniestoute8762 it’s those “experiences with Jesus” that never came for me, and family gave me books about faith because they knew I was struggling, I thought about being a Buddhist, but that wasn’t right, I settled on some sort of personal spirituality for a bit, described myself as a pagan for a bit, and in the end I was able to let go of it all once I realized that sin was a crime against a god I didn’t believe in, and so much sin is concerned with not angering god, rather than people, my moral compass was able to shift towards humanism, no longer concerned with doing things for god I’m concerned with people, and I don’t have an imagined being looking at my thoughts as if feeling anger or lust does anything unless you act on it.
@@almostgravy6556 You are correct The thought dwelt upon long enough bring forth the action, so I've learned to guard my thoughts. As far as personal experience, well that's something I can't give you. But to know your are serving humanity in love and peace is pretty awesome. Peace and good will to all men. Love of neighbor is pretty much the goal right?? Feed the poor, visit the sick, visit the prisoner, teach those who seek knowledge, seek knowledge ourselves, these simple acts of charity don't seem that difficult to do and all people can do them. We may experience something way more spiritual in these acts than in any other "religious" devotion or ritual we do or don't do? I dunno I'm not God..lol In doing
I remember once hearing that hell is the result of living your life rejecting God, rejecting goodness, rejecting love over and over and over. Saying to God, "No I don't want you. I don't love you. Leave me alone." For your whole life even until death and facing the horror of hearing God say, "Thy will be done." And he lets you go. Hell isn't really a place he sends you, per say, its where you end up because it's the only place where God isn't.
You haven't heard? God is everywhere, as it is one of his 'omni' qualities. It's amazing how people who aren't suppose to lie love to make things up [lie] so that they can feel righteous.
This video is a clear indicator of an individual who's not questioned their world view and doesn't understand what's wrong with their irrational logic premises. there's a lot of question begging, fallacious dispositions and logic leaps to try and substantiate what you tend to not realise isn't valid logic. you can't make claims without proving they're logical to start with. starting with your conclusion without justifying it and using it as the reason to base your position on is dishonest.
The Great Divorce was incredible, and amazingly timeless. Where I fail (and I'm not sure C.S. Lewis would disagree) is facing the traditional catholic and evangelical view that unbaptized persons who live their lives reaching for good and trying to do good as much as they can, will simply fall into Hell when they die without recourse. On the other hand, when then-Cardinal Ratzinger said that when an informed conscience and Church teaching disagree, one is obligated to follow one's conscience, he may have been agreeing with me himself?
Your description of God as a source of all goodness is easy to understand and makes sense to me. I get how sin is cutting ourselves off from God's goodness, and understand the consequences that go along with that. Those consequences are a type Hell on earth. But what about an eternal Hell? Is that truely a place a for those who die, and are not in a state of grace, are unbelievers, or unrepentant? Why not simply cause those souls to not exist instead of spending eternity in anguish?
@@carolynkimberly4021 you make a good point, but I think it's because the Church focuses on who may be in heaven such as saints and Blessed but since the Church can not condemn as only God can do that because we can choose to love him or not.
@@carolynkimberly4021 */*This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him. Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven? Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
@@Soapy-chan_old .-This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him. Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven? Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
I always mean to ask you about *"THE MISSION"* poster in the background. One of two pieces of media (the other being Frank Millers "Born Again" and its touching examination of despair and hope through the Faith and will) that really reinvigorated my Catholic journey a few years ago, after a break from 16 years of K through college Jesuit/Marist education. DeNiro's mercenary, is his use of violence in protection of the weak the proper example or is it Iron's submission and martyrdom? I always have a rough time on which path is the righteous one although I find DeNiro's invocation of force in the name of the meek to be justified. The Mission truly is a memorable film. As far as Hell goes, I pray every night for the soul of mankind as a whole. Every person who has lived, from monsters and maniacs to child molesters and my own loathed enemies. I sincerely dont want any soul to spend eternity in torment, it is a burden simply too cruel. I understand man makes his own proverbial bed, but still it doesnt mean I want anyone to endure that. Great vid as always. I genuinely enjoy the thoughtful content and am thrilled such good young men have the courage and moral fortitude to take up the mantle of the cloth
Yet, Richard Beebe, the bible clearly talks about everlasting fires of hell. Remember the parable of the rich & poor man. One ended up in Hades with parched lips & endless thirst, while the other was embraced in Abraham's comfy/loving arms/heaven.
@@GrantQuinn1 thank you Grant. I almost dont want to know as I have my own feelings about the film. "Silence" was another one that I assume has quite a split in theological interpretations
Same question applies to ''how can a loving and caring mother punish her children for doing something bad and treat the good one? '' Applies to ''God'' too, God is a Father and not any Father, no one can stand evil or wicked behaviours! when a child behaves badly, the mother will chastise him/her. God was kind enough not to drown the Earth altogether. Wicked and evil people especially those who use magic to hurt or gain something go to hell and it is not about punishment but rather ''rejection'' of God sends evil people there. When a child does something bad, he/ she will ask for forgiveness from the mother and feel bad, same way a Gods child does the same so God is not just a God but He is also RIGHTEOUS , evil and bad people cannot go around breaking Gods rules ! If God says ''do not eat the apple'' then don't eat the apple! If God says ''don't do black magic, it is a offence then don't do it'' dirt is always dirt and dirt is sin, hell is made for evil that did not confess, repent or ask for forgiveness. Hurting people too for no reason! causing them unnecessary pain! HELL IS REAL GET USED TO IT ! we hear screams! pain! torture! torment! why? Because, they did that to good people on Earth! And, I have no mercy! evil never changes, if I was in hell and worked for God I would say ''STAND THE F UP'' Christ did not get whiplashed on His back for no reason!!!! People need to understand GOD IS PURE AND U CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN WITH A DIRTY HEART and the worst sin of all THINKING ONE IS GOD OR BEING GOD WITH SUPERNATURAL POWERS
The question is not about eternal punishment but eternal torture. If you research visions of hell even from saints they describe incredible suffering and torture. Therefore the question is how can you reconcile a merciful, all loving God with eternal torture?
You reconcile it with the truth, that hell doesn't exist. The Bible teaches destruction is the punishment. 2 Thessalonians 1:9- "These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction" 2 Peter 2:12 "But these men, like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed" 2 Peter 2:9 "to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment"
do you have full agency over your decision to reject god if you have no knowledge of him. how can you have a real choice if one of the options remains hidden to you.
That's a clever analogy: God as a power plant. It does help to reconcile the difficult question of why a loving God would send anyone to Hell. Thank you for featuring this very difficult topic, Father Casey.
@@Roman-Labrador He doesn't. People are free to choose their own path. People have a lifetime to make choices, talk, listen, and act. Those that die too young or who were somehow unable to hear about Christ? Their souls are more likely in purgatory needing the prayers of others to help them along.
@@Roman-Labrador The Church teaches 'baptism of desire' for good people who have never heard of Christ. Baptism of desire is also held to occur to those who die in the Catechumenate.
@@Roman-Labrador I'd imagine that it could be accomplished in the same way someone in the Catechumenate does if they die prior to baptism. If a baby dies prior to receiving baptism, but the parents had every intention to baptize the baby, then it is through the parent's faith and desire for the child's baptism that God applies to them a baptism of desire.
@YAJUN YUAN He gives it to everyone, evil or otherwise. Our volitional acts, and beliefs by which we discipline our own lives, determine WHERE that eternity is to be experienced. As Father explained. God honors the desires in our hearts, for Him or against Him. Either way, God provides.
The only problem with the analogy is, a power plant is an industry manufactured by multiple people who do work that is limited and necessary. A god isn't bound by any of this.
The best book I have read about this topic is David Bentley Hart's _That All Shall Be Saved._ That book is usually criticised by people who have not read it. I very rarely see informed counter-arguments to it.
I'd like to shed more light on it. People are lead to conclusion that Heaven is for good people and Hell for bad and use that as an argument that God doesn't love unconditionally. That's fallacy that comes from poor understanding of God's will. In reality, Heaven is a place for people who want to be in the presence of God. People who seek Him and His goodness. And like every homeowner, he has couple of rules to follow if you wish to be with Him in His home. As for Hell, that is a place without God. God loves us so much to give us a choice to be with Him, or not be with him. Hell is absence of God. Now if there are creatures in Hell who are more powerful than us and they want to hurt us, well that's a different thing. Those creatures also have free will like we do and can choose either to hurt us or not to. If God made creation without free will, he's a tyrant who wants blind obedience. If he makes creation with free will, he is still a tyrant who allows bad things to happen despite humanity choosing it. That's not a problem with God, but people.
well, maybe there are these two fraction, those who want to be with god ( must be christian) and those who reject god altogether. But I bet there are myriads of people that are in between, good, caring, social, encouraged people, also with their daily faults, who just dont want to put their lives in religion. Is it really righteous to put these all in hell?
@@ast3663 Let me ask you then, how can you have good in absence of good? Lastly, people are given a choice. When God gives a choice, he's evil. If he wouldn't give choice, he'd still be evil. That's not a problem with God, but with humanity.
You can rewrite Roman Catholic teaching of the last 2,000 years if you want, but this is not what the Church has taught. You must begin with Original Sin. That is not a choice, you are born with it.
a more realistic answer would be this. in ancient days we had no meaningful way to prevent crimes like surveillance or solve them like detectives do. the only way we knew how to preven people from commiting crimes was to threaten them with grotesque torture as punishment. this is why we see people being executed in the most diabolical ways you can imagine in the ancient days. the religious scholars figured they could this same approach to prevent people from sinning, by telling them they'll be tortured for eternity if they don't behave right.
This is something I’ve pondered about for a very long time. For the argument of Hell being eternal separation from God as a result of rejecting Him, then I think it calls into question how awful Hell is. It’s tricky due to the verses about it being a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth and burning, but perhaps it was to illustrate how horrible existence is without God. To me, this is important because it demonstrates the idea of Hell being “passive” not only due to it being someone’s decision to reject Him, but also how Hell is not a punishment, but rather the consequence of that choice. Essentially, Hell would be how life after the Fall WOULD have been without God being involved in it
Psalm 1:6 For YHVH knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish. The Hebrew word is ( תֹּאבֵֽד tō·ḇêḏ ) Which mean to be annihilated, destroy or as its translated perish. This is the punishment of sin ers accordingly. Now what happens to the soul ? Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to ( destroy-ἀπόλλυμι ) both soul and body in ( γεέννῃ. Gehenna ) the Greek word ἀπόλλυμι apollumi means the same as the Hebrew תֹּאבֵֽד tō·ḇêḏ : meaning to put an end destruction or perish. The Scriptures does not teach that the entenal punishment is a everlasting torment in hell, a eternal life in hell would contradict the vary beginning, where God told Adam and his wife, if they eat from the tree of knowledge, they would die ! Now if are punishment is indeed death then how does one have life in a everlasting place of punishment! This never made sense to me. Just think about it.
@@DeFyYing */*This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him. Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven? Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
Free will in heaven- Yes. But the will and the choice and ability to always do the right thing, as in His presence, only the good can exist. The freedom to choose the good. ✡️✝️🇨🇦
4:28 you have to contend that the only way you can deal with someone who doesn’t love you is eternal conscious torment. Good luck. 5:17 you have to contend that non christians are necessarily and always full of deformed negative attributes. Have fun. 6:05 you (and Lewis) have to contend that 1) creatures suffering eternal conscious torment will always, always, _choose_ to continue receiving it, and will in 100% of cases not ask to be allowed to have it either cease or be allowed into paradise. And 2) that it is moral to make humans’ one chance to decide to believe in God X be made in ignorance before god makes himself unambiguously known to them. That will only happen when it’s too late and they are already sent to hell. You have your work cut out for you. But at least you’re not perpetuating any stereotypes of self-righteous xenophobic Christians.
Look, it's one thing to say that rejecting God and him cutting you off is being like cut off from the electric company, fair enough, but hellfire as it's traditionally taught is God being pro-active in post-life human suffering. That would be like the electric company not only cutting you off (restoring you to the neutral non-existent state you were in before your electric was ever turned on), but it would be the electric company coming down to where you live and torching your house to the ground, and every time you rebuilt it, they torch it again and again and again. The line of reasoning in the video is a red herring Fallacy. Absence of Goodness isn't the same thing as Evil. Good and Evil are two pro-active things. Absence of either just leaves you in a neutral state in the middle, maintaining a present status quo where there is the potential for either to occur, but until you actually take steps to act in one way or the other, that potential isn't yet realised. Think Cain and Abel, Cain wasn't evil because he was absent of Good, he was evil because his works were wicked and he killed his brother. I understand the attempts by some well meaning people in mainstream Christianity to water down the hellfire teaching into a "Oh no it's just a metaphorical state of being absent from God", but honestly there are better ways to dealing with this subject, like for starters looking up every single reference to what's in English translated "Hell" in the Hebrew and Greek texts, contextualising and categorising.
@@Pj-fm7oe Without caring for this leading to an argument/ debate with you or anyone reading this, I think the following points are clear: Jacob and Job both expected to go to Sheol (Genesis 37:35, Job 14:13, 17:13) all humans go there (Psalm 89:48). In Acts 2:27 Peter quotes Psalm 16:10 but uses "Hades", showing Greek Hades is equivalent to Hebrew Sheol. Revelation 20:13 & 14 show this place will be emptied one day, therefore a place from which resurrection is possible. Psalm 6:5's mention of Sheol nicely parallels the thoughts in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, Sheol and death being a state of no conscious activity. This is why Jesus likened death to sleep (Matthew 9:24) and why Paul likened it to sleep (1 Thessalonians 4:13,14). Sheol typically had the thought of being underground (Numbers 16:30, Isaiah 14:9) so it would appear to refer to the state of ones burial or being consumed by the ground after death (decomposition), much like what God said would happen to Adam ("dust you are, dust you will return"). None of the 66 references to Sheol or 10 to Hades lay out a concept of a fiery place of eternal torment. In fact "Hades" itself is symbolically thrown into the symbolic lake of fire in Revelation 20. Next, we have the Hebrew "gehhinnom" Greek "Gehenna" meaning "Valley of Hinnom", a place where some of the unfaithful Kings made their children pass through the fire as part of human sacrifice offerings (2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6) altho King Josiah stopped this from happening at the site (2 Kings 23:10). A later Jewish commentator said the place became a place of continual fire never put out used for the disposal of criminal bodies and unclean things. Therefore, since these things were not naturally consumed by the ground (Sheol), it became a place known for quick and total destruction (Gehenna), which at a time when burial mattered, anyone whose corpse was sent there to be disposed of had negative connotations attached to them. Naturally then this word became suitable for symbolising total and complete destruction in many new testament passages (Matthew 10:28. This symbolism then serves as the backbone for the symbolic "lake of fire" in Revelation, which symbolised the "second death" (Revelation 20:14), and since Sheol itself is cast into this place (a state from which resurrection is possible) then it stands to reason that Gehenna, the lake of fire would symbolise a place from which a resurrection is NOT possible. Finally, the final outlying piece of data is Jesus parable at Luke 16:19-31. Everybody always quotes this passage out of context. The parable is directed at the Pharisees (see verse 14,15) comparing them with people like the tax collectors they were so eager to judge and condemn in the previous chapter. During the time that the Pharisees were the dominating force in Israel, the Pharisees enjoyed good things like the rich man, whereas the people they should have been spiritually helping (the beggar Lazarus), the tax collectors and sinners, had injurious things. This "death" that they suffered is symbolic of the change in state. While being formerly the top of the social hierarchy, in the Christian system, they would be at the bottom whereas the sinners would end up in the place of flavor (the bosom position) which the Pharisees were tormented by. This symbolic use of death is also seen in Romans 6 & 7, whereby Paul explains: _"Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life"_ ... _"Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him."_ ... _"Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus."_ ... Indeed, when these sinners were coming to know Jesus and repenting, it was putting their religious leaders into a position of condemnation, since it showed that these people could indeed be helped, and that their abusive way of dealing with such ones was part of the problem, not the solution. The Pharisees were in anguish under the Christian system, since it exposed them. He was showing that the current status quo that they enjoyed was about the change. The parable has nothing to do with establishing concepts about the afterlife, (and with it appearing in the new testament, it's quite late in the game to be establishing that concept there,) but has everything to do with comparing the Pharisees to the sinners they failed to help. Summary: • Death is an unconscious sleep-like state • Sheol/ Hades refers to the ground where people are buried and/ or decompose, spoken of in poetic terms, a place from which resurrection is possible. •Gehhinom/Gehenna/ The Lake of fire is euphemistic language for total destruction with no hope of a resurrection. This second death is permenant. • Luke 16 is a parable aimed at the Pharisees. Yet nowhere do we find a passage laying down a concept of an eternal torture place as described by many denominations. Hope all that makes sense.
@@isaacmarshmallow8751 I'm sorry brother I hope you didn't spend too much time to write this just for me. We believe the same thing (assuming you are a Witness, which I'm pretty sure you are). This is very well stated BTW I might use some of it myself if you don't mind. I've made these same points too many times to count but I love how you put it all together. I would change my mind if I read this and didn't know already. Do you get a lot of argument? I know personally I find it difficult not to argue with some. I'm sarcastic by nature so I have to fight that constantly.
@@Pj-fm7oe Don't worry I had a feeling you were 😉 it was for any others that stumble across this comment tbh. Also I know understand better how the idea of Sheol naturally sprung from the words aimed at Adam (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20), much the same way that Gehhinnoms usage was a natural bi-product of the fiery waste disposal place (besides Sodom and Gomorrah too as per Jude 7) that so it wasn't a waste of time. And yes, too many times (especially over the Trinity, which is founded on circular reasoning), but not once has a debate or argument ever changed anyone's mind in my recollection. Whenever you have a "my view Vs your view" outset to any discussion, people only become further steeped in their own views (this because you activate each others primal fight/ flight responses whenever someone feels their core beliefs are being attacked). The only thing I've ever changed someone's mind on in an Argument was whether Rey is a Mary Sue in Star Wars (she's not) 😂 for this reason I try to avoid them, it's like running on a treadmill, you exert alot of stress and energy but get nowhere. The only way to change anyone's views is for you both to build on common ground together, acknowledge neither of you is "all knowing" and for you to both have the common goal of reaching the bottom of a matter. Truth seeking, not stance defending. You have to be willing to change your own views if they are wrong, and know that if your beliefs are established solidly then they will still be standing after scrutiny (Titus 2:8). You have to be willing to recognise each others points of merit, and let those points inform/ sharpen/ improve your own point of view and yours hopefully theirs. Once all the facts have been established, hopefully you both come to the same conclusion on a matter.
@@isaacmarshmallow8751 All good points, I know that I have had much more success in asking good questions in tandem with genuine compliments than as you put it, stance defense. I do think that others read these discussions so sometimes I will post just to show others the truth and hopefully they will show interest later or visit the website. You never know when something you say affects someone or if they will remember it later or think about it and have questions. I think that world view challenge fight or flight response you mentioned is called cognitive dissonance. And yes I see it constantly too, you can tell they are just too attached to what they grew up with. They will read a plain scripture and flip it to mean the opposite of what it says. I'm glad to know you but in order to avoid arguments I think that means the two of us should not discuss star wars lol. I watched those and came away quite a different opinion. Discussing movies is a passion of mine.
Just because you choose not to live with or in the way your parents want you to live during your life, does that mean you can never live or be with them again? A child that storms out of a house can never return? The real problem with hell is the never ending aspect of it as a result of decisions made during some finite time interval. It's the permanence of hell that makes it cruel. Jesus taught that the father unreservedly and unconditionally welcomed the prodigal son who returned after he realized the error of his ways. From Jesus' own parable we are given the impression that the father never had a time limit after which the son would not be welcomed back. Your power plant analogy wouldn't fail if it didn't have a time limit after which you could no longer plug into it. Again, it's the eternal aspect of hell that makes it cruel and inconsistent with a loving God whom Jesus told us to consider as a (and refer to as) father. You didn't address that at all. (And if most of us are not in favor of eternally shutting out those who once ignored us, wouldn't that make the average human being more forgiving than God?) You don't have to be an atheist to see this as problematic. The usual response from the Church to such paradoxes is to say that it's a "mystery." If that's the case, then we really don't have an answer.
This is the first contradiction in the Christian theology I found (I was around 11-12 years old back then) and it started my journey out of Christianity and into atheism. On one hand you have God - the embodiment of love, on the other you have eternal punishment for finite sins (and to be clear - if you can't get out of Hell, even if you wanted to, it is a punishment). For 30 years the only answer I found to this conundrum was that after death you still get to choose if you want to live with God or without, after being provided with sufficient knowledge to make the choice. But this is not consistent with the doctrine, I suppose.
@@allegoria07 One workaround I've come across is that the translation of "eternal" from the original Greek text is more along of the lines of "eon" which is not strictly eternal. it opens the door for something less than eternal, but that is not the current understanding, what is taught, or doctrine.
@@piotr.ziolo. One workaround I've come across is that the translation of "eternal" from the original Greek text is more along of the lines of "eon" which is not strictly eternal. it opens the door for something less than eternal, but that is not the current understanding, what is taught, or doctrine.
.,..This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him. Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven? Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
I think one of most important parts of Catholicism is the forgiveness of sin. We may try hard to do good, be good, but we are human. My dad was a devout Catholic but lost his faith after my mom died. As he was dying, he got very agitated. I heard him whispering the Act of Contrition, so I called the parish priest. He came immediately, gave my dad the last rites, heard his confession and gave him communion. When he left, my dad was at peace. He died the next day, listening to the Brandenberg Concertos. His last words were “so beautiful”. Not a bad way to go.
@@Angelica-lo5qs Of all the things I disagree with Protestants, the ones I disagree with most are predestination and justification by faith alone. If our salvation is determined at birth, what is the point? Why bother trying to lead a good life? As for justification by faith alone, it’s ridiculous. Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 22:37-39 that to enter the kingdom, we must love God with our whole hearts souls and minds and we must love our neighbor as ourselves. He made both requirements equal.. Matthew 25:35-40 says to feed the hungry, comfort the sick, shelter the stranger, and clothe the naked. If that’s not good works, what is?
@@Angelica-lo5qs John’s gospel was written around 100 CE. John never knew Jesus, never met anyone who had known Jesus. It was probably written at Patmos or at Antioch, well away from Jerusalem. His is the only gospel with the famous “I am” statements. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus always referred to Himself as Huios ho tou anthropou or the son of man. John also transferred all blame for the crucifixion from the Romans to the Jews whom he referred to as “ children of Satan”. Jews did not crucify living people. It was against their religion. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment reserved for sedition and rebellious slaves. John also portrayed Pilate as a weak but kindly man who wanted to release Jesus but was prevented from doing so by the vile Jews. This is garbage. Pilate crucified thousands of Jews without trial. It was so bad that in 36CE the Jewish leadership petitioned the governor of Syria for help. He came to Jerusalem, fired Pilate, and sent him back to Rome. For 2000 years, Christians have slaughtered Jews screaming, “ you killed Christ”. John has a Hell of a lot to answer for.
Here is how I work through this, God is: Eternal All-knowing All-present All-loving Yet there is an Eternal and Divine judgment? God would know the whole span of time from beginning to end even before creation itself. God would know everything about you, who you are, what you would become, and all other people as well and how everyone would interact with each other from before time to the end of time. God would also be present during all of these events. Now, all those don't necessarily conflict, God would be completely capable of having an Eternal, and All-knowing, All-present, and All-loving nature etc. What does conflict however is the All-loving nature sitting beside a supposed Eternal Judgment. All-loving implies an infinite capacity for compassion, mercy, forgiveness, understanding, and affection; whereas eternal Judgment implies an inconsistent rupture in that previous capacity of eternal, infinite, and uncompromising love. No transgression we as humans might make against each other or to ourselves would ever be beyond the capacity of an immortal and infinite being to forgive, not even a loss of faith in or denial of that Deity. The analogy of the "powerplant" is nice, and I hold some sympathy with it, however a powerplant doesn't cut anyone off on its own, the power company does. So if God is the powerplant, then who is the shadowy committee of gatekeepers cutting people off from the power if they don't pay up? Though beings of immortal spirits, that spirit lives through a limited mortal vessel, our spirits filter through it, and like all filters and sieves many things are lost in that process. If our infinite capacities accompanied our mortal embodiment then the problems we face with each other and towards each other would likely not occur, but they do; so our manifold immortal capacities it can be rightly observed are largely lost at birth and so we are as limited as the flesh which encases us. As such we are born and are completely dependent on others to raise us through our growth and early life, as St. Augustine says we are born amidst p**s and s**t. Now, those who raise us might be pleasant but they might also be cruel, they might be neighborly and fraternal but they might also be viscous and solitary; all of which would have an impact. None at birth are vile or corrupted. Humans are part of a vast web of known and unknow influences between each other, things that are obvious and things hidden; We live our lives on the stage set by our ancestors. Those whom we all would consider the worst sort of evil incarnate who committed some of the most gut wrenching acts imaginable, would have been impossible to exist as they were or do so if only history worked differently before them. If only that evil ideology which surrounded them throughout life had not be devised by someone then dead a century or if only their ancestors had taken to further shores and they been born in another country unaffected. Even if fate had fordained that such would be the case. That they should be born in that place and raised by that family and surrounded by that malice, then it would be the divine design and beyond their place to resist, and so Never their crime anyway! Thus nullifying their earthly evils and supplanting any divine judgment as their life was not their own alone to live for themselves, but for a future path for the world that God had intended and through them and their ancestors would craft and fashion. What of those too who also are physically impaired, not on the surface, but deep within? Those whose bodies, hearts, and minds are unfinished yet even after birth? The vessel is broken and so too would be the filter of the spirit, thus an act they might commit is literally, physically, and completely beyond their potential and capacity to not do; and many in strong prisons already have done. It is not mere lack of moderation or inability to resist any temptation that afflicts them, but the opposite, to them such things are as natural as the taking of breath, as walking, as the beating of the heart. Unintentional and bodily habitual. The fault resting with the vessel and not the spirit, thus not a thing they could be judged for. God, to my philosophy, is not incapable of judgment, but rather is not a God of Judgment. We are so limited in body that any possible Earthly transgression committed by any person would never be worth an eternal judgment to adjudicate, no matter the case and no matter the person, living or dead.
This is hate, not love. Jesus said he came to save humanity, not the chosen people who happen to have the right circumstances and mental states to receive the gospel.
This vídeo answers purgatory, answers suffering in earth. But not eternal damnation. Suffering by all eternity is not correction, because there in no out from hell, not second chance afterlife
@@sneakysnake2330 Then where did the love go then? Why eternal suffering and not just erasing? Why torture souls forever if there si even love for them? I'm not an atheist but this hardly makes sense. I think it makes ir if people have a vacuous pleasure in hell in existential void and anxious inbetweens because they can't bear the joy of heaven. But not God torturing for punishment sake
@@Roman-Labrador those who choose sin and evil choose to reject God. In those actions they choose to be apart from God. If one continues like this, then God in a sense grants them their wish. They will be forever away from God just as they wanted in life.
People "choose" to go to Hell? Got it. So if someone says "Give me all your money or I'll kill you" they shouldn't be charged with a crime for murdering people. It's the people who refuse to give their money who are to blame. LOL, and you said "It doesn't take mental gymnastics." Oops!
You make things so simplistic and black and white. If God is pure Goodness and Love, and our Father, then what does a loving father do? He seeks his children no matter where they make their bed because only God knows why someone has turned away or what someone is going through. God follows us. Not forces us. But continues to be with us and find us and reach out to us. We are never cut off from His love. To say that you don't want it so you wont get it because God will take it back is making God immature, small, petty, and unloving. Grace finds us at times when we didn't want it or weren't looking for it. That's why it's grace. My atheist neighbor might not believe in God or be bitter and angry because they lost a child or were abused or experienced some sort of horrific trauma. I don't know. But God does and God will bless that person and help that person and be with that person. Bidden or unbidden, God is there. You make God out to be so transactional and tit for tat.
that point leads me to ask, he's the source of all goodness, but he's also the source of all evil because he created it all, including the very evil that is in his creation. He created a system by design where countless sentient conscious beings are doomed to inevitable damnation. It's like me rigging random houses with dynamite and giving a neighborhood away with the warning that some day I'll blow them up. Some people will die but the rest will get free houses. then building a wall around the neighborhood and saying if you leave I'll also shoot you. am I good for creating this system?
That depends. Are you the God of Abraham? If so yes. Otherwise, obviously not, you monstrous psychopath. Didn’t you know? That’s how moral objectivism works, silly.
My question is why would God create someone who he knew would ultimately reject him and go to hell? Especially if we take literally the words "better for him if he hadn't been born". Wouldn't it be more benevolent to leave such a person uncreated?
Because that is the nature of free will. If you couldn't refuse to love Him, then your love wouldn't be real. The "choice" would be bogus. All of your unselfish caring and sharing with others would be nothing more than the behaviour of some colonial insect, like ants. Do you think ants are the best thing God ever made? Of course not. The best would be us, the last thing ... the one He said was "very good" because we can love Him freely. That's why we are the crown of creation, and God was willing to become one of us. We have free will, and it's up to us to choose how to use it.
@@ayybeealternative1999
It was a very wise man who said, "If God did not exist, it would have been necessary to invent Him." That is true, but in all actuality, God does exist. And "only a fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'" Don't be a fool.
@@lukasmakarios4998 Im Christian but tbh you don’t address him correctly. “If Couldn’t refuse to love him, then your love wouldn’t be real” Which love exactly? We were talking about people uncreated. You can’t love or hate when uncreated. The question he asked was about God his Will not the free will of humans
@@stquodvultdeus4613 , because the person that He creates has free will to choose, what he said was related to this conversation. If the being wasn't created, the being wouldn't be able to choose, think, or really have any free will because they wouldn't exist
@@lukasmakarios4998 but why were we not given the choice to be born or not? If GOD is truly a respecter of free will?
As a former Catholic turned atheist, I have been wondering the Church's stance on this for years without ever really digging into it, rather asking people directly about their individual stances. Thanks for this video, it's intriguing to know more about this.
The Bible does not teach that people are eternally tormented in hell. I used to believe the same thing until I studied the Bible for myself. This is a doctrine that entered the church through the pagan Roman Catholic Church.
If you are interested to see this truth, I would be more than happy to clearly show you this from the Scriptures. There are 4 main verses that people have used to teach eternal conscious torment, but I assure you that when studied in context and not just taking them as cherry picked verses, they clearly teach that the unrighteous will be destroyed at the end and that they will be no more forever.
@Vladi.G sorry. Re-read the bible, study church History and the church fathers. It's Catholic and hell is eternal as your soul is eternal
@@PatrickInCayman I have reread the Bible and studied church history and that’s how I came to the truth. I used to believe as you do when I listened to doctrines of men, but then I actually sat down and studied the Bible for myself and realized that eternal conscious torment is nowhere to be found in the Bible. I can clearly show you this in the Scriptures if you want to hop on a call and study.
Edit: There isn’t a single verse that says our souls are eternal. Quite the opposite actually.
@@Vladi.G
You: I have reread the Bible and studied church history and that’s how I came to the truth.
Me: Doubt that seriously. Please read Ignatius of Antioch (Disciple of the Apostle John) wrote in 107AD, his Letter to the Smyrnaeans chapters 7 and 8
Please read that again, and come back here to share your thoughts.
@@PatrickInCayman The first and foremost authority is the Bible. We must first consult the Bible and then what men have to say.
I’m not surprised that you believe hell is eternal conscious torment if your first source that you provided is something outside the Bible.
You are a breath of fresh air in a world where the church is shrinking. The church needs people like you to save it and bring it into 2023
The world's leading "religion" today; the one that's growing......is atheism. And it's not a religion....it is a denouncement of religion.
The Catholic Church doesn't need to be "brought" into any year. It's lasted neatly 2000 years and doesn't change because of human events.
@@truecatholic8692 Pope Francis is trying to bring the Church into the 21st century but he is not changing Catholic dogma. He is trying to make the Catholic Church relevant to the demands and needs of modern society, the challenges facing us all. The world facing us today has little resemblance to the world of first century Palestine.
Interesting take while you ignore the evils that have happened within the Church.@@truecatholic8692
I'd be happy if the church could be brought to the late 1800's already. :/
Listening to this video (and other videos) has inspired me. I am not Catholic but I appreciate the Catholic viewpoint. Thank you so much Fr. Casey. Keep up the good work!
Why? They are full of misinformation.
You can always join
Same
I lived without God for about 3 years. I thought that I could just autonomously go though my life and just did what I thought we right for me. After about 2 years, I found myself extremely depressed, anxious, and isolated from everyone else. The thing is I chose isolation because of anxiety and instead of turning to God for help, I just kept telling myself it wasn’t worth it. To make a long story short, this was mainly due to a lot of bullying and experiencing horrible things I didn’t know could happen in a catholic school. I am still in the process of reconnecting myself with him and I am loving every second of it. He has set me free from so many things.
It’s all in your head
Amen! I believe God has set me free, too. A couple of years ago, I came back to faith, and I've been choosing to live for God. I don't want to be selfish anymore. I know now that God's very nature is love. At 68, I'm more at peace than I ever was since I was a small child.
I gave up church and religion almost a decade ago. But I understand some people need religion to cope with reality so I won't judge.
good for you for leaving superstition. you need not be isolated. talk to atheists online, and look for positive messages about how you can find your own meaning in life and accept that reality can be harsh but also wonderful.
@@LisaAnn777 will they ever be a comeback for you?
I never got shocked by God wrath because He is patient with us and He gives us more time to repent.
Why would we expect anything from God if we refuse to repent and continue to hate and do evil?
May God guide all who seek his face, we are weak but strong in His refuge
What I don't understand are the standards God uses to decide if people go to hell or not. I have no problem with a just and loving God sending, say, Hitler to hell, because quite frankly he deserves it. But it's difficult to imagine why a just and loving God would send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him or accidentally followed the wrong religion. Why should a kind and just atheist share in the same punishment as a mass murderer? This is the part that doesn't make any sense to me.
@@casuallavaring People that couldn't believe in God not by their own fault, but of circumstances, can still be saved, they will still have to choose when they die. God doesn't send us to hell for not believing necessarily, but instead for not choosing him once you know who is he.
PD: God doesn't work with punishments as are ours. It's not who did most good or most evil. If it where only up to merit, no one would be saved. God has mercy for everyone and even Hitler would be able to be saved if at the end of his life he chose to repent and correct his soul.
God made you to have a proclivity towards evil. Why are you demanding forgiveness from the very being who made you sick in the first place?
@@analyticallysound2716 I will always ask for forgiveness. Good luck with your rebellious attitude.
God didn't make us sick, we get sick by our choices. God hates sins and is always there to help us if we want to.
@@DarkAngel-cj6sx "Created sick, and commanded to be well".
Imagine being grateful to the man who put a gun to your head for putting it there in the first place. Your only sin was being born, which was not your choice in the first place.
You thank God for his patience? He made you knowing you would be corrupt and evil in his own eyes and then demands you fix what you never chose to be.
Atheist here. It's quite an interesting point of view, but I do have a couple of objections:
There's a huge difference between being left in a state without goodness and roasting in a litteral lake of fire for eternity. If I was an omnipotent being, I wouldn't leave people there whether they'd like me or not. If you have some other interpretation of hell you may disregard this objection.
Going with the powerplant analogy, no electric company would put a deadline past which you can no longer pay and plug into them.
Most Christians I know believe that once you die, it is too late to accept God and you're condemned to hell forever.
If God is truly loving and merciful, why wouldn't he welcome people changing their mind after they die?
Because he gives us all the grace and loving help we need in our earthly life to make a choice. There is a light that illumines every man.
It is believable that an unborn baby who has died gets to make a choice after death because they had no chance to make it on earth. But you and I have that chance.
@@annarumble838 First it is debatable how much "grace and help" God gives to different people. I mean to me it's not even clear God exists and it is something I'm not particularly inclined to take on faith, or I wouldn't be an atheist in the first place. Or even worse people from non Abrahamic religions have it even more difficult to make such a choice beforehand, because they tend to be convinced of different beliefs with the same faith Christians have.
But all that set aside, what exactly is wrong with changing one's mind? Even if we assume that God guided people towards the right choice and they still made the wrong one, if there's a person in hell who changes their mind, he clearly could have done something more to help them yet he chose not to.
There are different levels of punishment in hell. Luke 12 references this. One can be cut into pieces and assigned to the same place with unbelievers if one is wicked enough. Someone who has known Christianity yet rejects it is held more accountable than someone who isn't raised with the religion. This is what's referenced when it says the master may beat with many stripes or with few.
@@annarumble838 I used to work in a prison. A lot of the people there had no “choice” to be good. There were people who were mentally unwell, people who’d spent their whole lives being abused by their parents in the worst way. They couldn’t choose goodness because they’d never experienced it. And what they needed to get better was kindness, not punishment. It’s easy to claim “oh everyone has a choice” and I used to think that- but the reason those people were worse than me is that I grew up with kind and loving parents and they grew up in hell. They never had a choice.
The Biblical interpretation of "hell" is "the grave." People don't actually look up words in their original languages...
Hebrew word for hell is Sheol which translated "the grave."
Greek word for hell is Hades which translated "the grave."
They pervert scripture and then don't even use the Bible other than perverting it. Run far away from the Roman Catholic Church.
You don't stay alive in hell. Hell is the grave and then, if you are wicked, you are thrown in the lake of fire and are consumed, destroyed, burned up, etc. You cease to exist after that. Done. God is not a tyrant. These wicked people just love perverting the truth of God's word and would rather be instruments of Satan more than instruments of God.
Our Lady of Mdjugorje has said that those who go to hell have ceased thinking favourably about God. And choose hell for themselves. They suffer there, but always refuse to pray.
Why pray to a god that hasn't been demonstrated to exist? . . . and who, as a baby killer, seems morally bankrupt? Why do you worship someone who has a reputation for infanticide? . . . the wonton torture and murder of "the innocent"?
I’m glad you mentioned Dante’s inferno. I highly highly recommend any Christian read the divine comedy, it has such unique perspectives and beautiful messages for a book written in the 1300s
And false which means there is no reason to read it.
@@StillProtesting wrong. So reading Lord of the Rings is useless because it is "not real". These stories may not be real in the literal sense, but we can learn very much from them.
@@StillProtesting Cinderella is also a false story
@@ivanrenic4243 Yes. You shouldn't waste your time with things that don't matter.
@@floptaxie68 Good. Don't read it then.
Just a simple "Thank You!" I really needed this today. Going to create a t-shirt for myself. " God is the Source! Are you Connected?"
that would be an awesome shirt
@@ayybeealternative1999 He's playing a sick game with us right now.
no one no matter what deserves eternal punishment in hell it contradicts the concept of a benevolent creator
Does the person who wants hell, deserve hell?
@@games-bk2ho nobody wants it and nobody deserves it. the criticism is valid.
God said otherwise
@@games-bk2ho God assumed a personne want hell if she didn't have a relationship with Him even if she was a good christian, so if said personne was't good enouth
Eternal burning torment would only be NECESSARY if two reasons were BOTH true: 1. The souls of all humans are immortal (i.e. all souls become conscious after conception and continue to exist into eternity future), and 2. The corrupting seed of sin that we receive from our parents grows progressively, irreversibly, absolutely, and completely given enough time. Even a speck of sin is the seed of a future satanic being within.
Just as our souls are locked into our current mortal bodies, the lost will be raised and given immortal bodies to lock their souls into. Then they will be thrown into the lake of fire.
No matter how kind and gentle a nonbeliever may seem to you at the moment, God sees the sin inside them growing.
Ephesians 4:22 (NASB) says, “That, in reference to your former way of life, you are to rid yourselves of the old self, which IS BEING corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit.”
2 Timothy 3:13 (NASB) says, “But evil people and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.”
Galatians 5:9 (NASB) says, “A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.”
Colossians 1:21 (NLT) says, “This includes you (Gentiles before they became Christians) who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.”
Ephesians 2:12 (NASB) says, “Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”
For this reason, God knows that their immortal soul is on track to being another satanic-like being in the future. And since their soul exists forever, if they do not obtain salvation through Jesus, God must eternally separate them from Himself and those who will be in heaven. But He loves His enemies and has made a way out of our hopeless situation through the person of Jesus Christ if we accept Him before we die.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 (NLT), “And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus.”
Look at the current behavior of Satan and his demons driven by hate and rage. They are the end products of complete corruption.
John 10:10a (NASB) says, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.”
How can anyone contain satanic evil in a group of lost immortal humans and angels? Do you remember what God said in Genesis about the abilities of humans?
God reveals something about humans in Genesis 11:6 (NLT), “‘Look!’ he said. ‘The people are united, and they all speak the same language. After this, nothing they set out to do will be impossible for them!’” Eternal pain will eternally contain the lost souls’ thoughts and attention. They will forever be in such torment that they can never unify to break forth and spread corruption again.
Bottom line - the sin (selfishness) in lost people is growing progressively, irreversibly, absolutely, and completely given enough time. Death does not stop the progression. Every lost person will end up completely corrupted like Satan and his demons driven by hate and rage so that all they want to do is “steal, kill and destroy.” Eternal separation and containment in torment are necessary.
Gotta be honest... This is where you lose me. If I accept the idea that everything good comes from God and only God, that still leaves me with the problem that this idea of God seems to punish people for not believing. Not believing when dozens of others also claim that you need to believe in their version or face some terrible fate or other. Not believing when there are ultimately very good reasons why someone might not believe.
It's not like Atheists say "Yeah God exists but I don't want that." We're simply not convinced he exists, just as we're not convinced of the existence of... I dunno... Lakshmi. I'm neither ready to believe, nor accept as morally correct, that not being convinced of something, with ultimately not much in the way of proof, will necessarily result in a bitter, hateful and deeply unhappy person.
There's a lot in Christianity that I find deeply admirable and that I genuinely try to emulate, but I don't think I'll ever see a satisfactory answer to things like the problem of evil or God's wrath.
Your comment is interesting. Can you elaborate on how "God seems to punish people for not believing?", because that is literally the opposite of what Fr. Casey said in the video.
@@edxmon Well... Yes and no. His argument, and feel free to correct me here if I misunderstood him, seems to come down to the idea that atheists, or anyone who believes in a faith other than Christianity, distances themselves from God and that's where the suffering, Hell etc. come in.
My issue with that is that as someone who doesn't already believe you're confronted with essentially dozens of belief systems, many of which claim to be the only path to salvation.
Our Lord said that you are free to believe or not to believe. If you believe you will be saved. If you don't believe ...
@@edxmon but it's not the opposite of what our Lord said at the end of the Gospels. You have to believe in order to be saved. You have to follow Our Lord's teachings to be saved.
Sorry but this is not what catholicism teach, if you follow your conscience and conduct you are life with love and basically behave like Jesus wanted you can be saved even if you are atheist or believe in other religions. Turning your back to God doesn't mean not being cognitively convinced of his existence but rather something like "you said to love your neighbour, guess what, I don't care about him, I only care about me".
I almost didn’t watch this because I was scared to hear what you were going to say. I feel so much better after watching this then I thought I was going to do. This is very comforting.
I read that only 6% of people calling themselves Christians are _truly_ Christian! That means 94% of those who think they are saved are really going to hell - which means that over 90% of all people ever born are destined for a fate worse than death! Evil doesn't get any more evil than this!
People should be praying God *doesn't* exist!
How to get back in Christ and HOW GOD MADE ME. NO ARMOR AND spiritually tricked and DECEIVED. Badly running from Him.
Comforting? Possibly. Unbiblical? Definitely. The biblical Yahweh delights in punishing people.
@@lauterunvollkommenheit4344 Jesus doesnt punish. He gives the wicked what they want. Being without God. And since God and Jesus are life... being without them is... death. That is what they get.
@@StillProtesting I only quoted Yahweh. He himself says that he punishes people. And that he delights in it. Jesus also talks about punishment. What's the point in denying it?
My problem with the existance of hell isnt that it exists, its that it is an infinite punishment for a finite crime. If you dont pay your electricity bill, they cut off your electricity bill... until you pay it again. Its not once you dont pay it once you are cut off forever.
The idea of hell with no chance for redemption after getting there simply isnt something a loving god would do, especially when you consider how, comparatively trivial, some mortal sins are.
Hell as eternal punishment does In Fact Not exist. The Bible literally says that we should fear him that can destroy both Body and Soul. The Bible talks about the "second death" in Revelations. Hell is literally the Second Death, that of the soul and it is permanent annihilation with the inability to repent and live with God forever. Its truly a horrific punishment, worse than one in which you are burning forever with the ability to "think" or repent and beg God to release you. No, the confused understanding of hell that is prevelant now in modern day Christianity is not worse than what the Bible actually teaches. God will annihilate the lost once and for all. I choose Jesus, and to be a priest in his household. 🙏
If you are a Christian, especially Catholic please read the saints, the mystics in particular, like St Faustina, very enlightening about our lord and what he wants to do for us and what we can do for him. Divine Mercy is very special. Jesus, I trust in you Amen. .
I just started reading her diary! God bless.
@@R-78787 Maybe you should read the Bible instead and you would probably stop being a Catholic if you did. You'd see that they do a lot of shady things.
I want to read her Diary one day.
@@MrFossil367ab45gfyth you can find a free pdf version online
I read her diary. She attributes many things Our Lord told her that are against the Catholic teachings.
I watched this as its a concept I've grappled with. A forgiving and loving God to slam you into an eternal hell just because you deny him. If you compare this to parental love then it beggars the question...... if a child renounces their mother or father, would they condemn their child to an eternity of torture and suffering? I love this young man and I truly think he's quite wonderful....... but this just doesn't cut it for me.
the thing is that god is not a human, in fact he would be closer to a Lovecraftian god than to a being like us. Anything not good can endanger creation. We can clearly see how man creates chaos on earth. but because he loves us, he gives us a chance to turn to him and do good.
All "evil" is not man made in origin, and the idea presented that a deity/God/Ultimate Father who is trully all loving would leave out his child in the cold who has renounces or forsaken him is preposterous.
I haven't yet encountered a single atheists who when asked...
"Do you think that if you knocked on the door to Jesus asking for help that he would refuse to open because your not a Christian believer or belive in God?"
...has then answered back that they agree with this and belive Jesus wouldn't open the door for them, for the reason of their lack of faith.
True love is unconditional.
Even atheists recognises this.
Tell me which one here has faith in the Love of Christ?
An Atheists asking help from Jesus or a Cristian expecting Jesus to reject him?
Go watch the video on youtube of "Pope Francis consoles a boy who asked if his non-believing father is in Heaven"
If all punishment is corrective then why is hell eternal ?
Good question.
Because Yahweh delights in punishing people.
Hell is the grave and not eternal. No fire is eternal. The conclusion of hellfire, which is not hell, is eternal. The conclusion is that the wicked will be consumed, destroyed, burnt up, ashes under our feet, etc.
Hell gets thrown into the lake of fire burning with brimstone as well.
@@runningbear6391 Without any real proof of evolution except for wishful thinking and pseudoscience.
@@runningbear6391 do you feel like a big man claiming you are somehow superior for believing life is meaningless?
Does it drive your ego that you can proclaim life is meaningless and yet say that your okay with that?
If life is meaningless why did you take the time to tell someone it’s meaningless.
Sounds kind of meaningless to take your time to tell us life is meaningless.
Yes, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about fiery Gehenna. They would understand Gehenna because it was a real place just on the outskirts of Jerusalem. It was a burning trash dump where the fires would burn constantly, day and night. The bodies of criminals would be dumped there to burn, rot, and be eaten by worms. It was seen by the Jews as an evil, cursed place where the souls of the wicked would be sent for punishment. However, the prevailing Jewish belief at the time was that Gehenna's punishments were meant to purify the souls, not to torture them endlessly. Moreover, a literal translation of the original Greek text of the NT does not say "eternal" when talking about post mortem punishment, it says, essentially, "an age". Translators took the Greek word "aionian", meaning "age" or age-during" and translated it as "eternal".
Let's look at punishment. The type of punishment illustrated by the traditional concept of hell is retributive. A payback type of punishment, meant to satisfy the offended party. However, the original Greek text never used "timoria" to describe post mortem punishment. It only used "kolasin", which means "corrective punishment". Matthew 25:46 finishes with "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." in our English Bibles. However, the literal concordant version reads, "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.". Eonian means "an age". Chastening for an age. The lengths of the "ages" in this verse do not have to be of equal durations. "Age" duration was based on context and an age was considered to last as long as it needs to last. A certain amount if time. For example, the OT of the Bible describes the amount of time that Jonah was in the whale was "olam", an age. Was Jonah in the whale for an eternity? Moreover, post mortem punishment is corrective, according to a literal translation of the Greek text. Corrective punishments do not last forever. Besides, as it says in Lamentations 3:31-33 - "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. 32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. 33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone." As it says in 1 Timothy 4:10 - "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." God bless.
I struggle so much with my faith! This is all so difficult to understand. Why does it have to be so hard to understand? You are a very smart and wise man for such a youngster. You are truly blessed. I don't know about me and many of us coming late to the party. I have no doubt that God is great and all loving, I highly doubt my deserving his love and forgiveness. God bless you young man!
Human beings have always wanted and tried to save themselves from their own sins and earn their own eternal salvation. It is part of our sinful nature to do so. But there is no amount of human good works that could ever satisfy the demands of perfect holiness before YHWH because we “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). But Jesus, The Christ, was SINLESS and He satisfied all the demands of perfect righteousness. So He shed His own blood and died for our sins in order to redeem us. Then He rose from the dead and victoriously offered that glorious gift of eternal life to anyone and everyone who believes in Him and His promise to give us this gift. Hallelujah, What a Savior!! AND NOW we are FREE in Christ - at LIBERTY to LOVE OTHERS!
Shalom (PTK)
It's needlessly complicated by lies. Hell for example is a lie.
The Bible teaches that at death we are acquitted of sins. Romans 6:7 "For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin"
It also says that man is mortal Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins is the one who will die."
It does however teach that destruction is the punishment.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction"
@@Pj-fm7oe I disagree with your interpretation. I believe you are taking Romans 6:7 out of context. Death in this passage is talking about dying with Christ on the Cross not physical death. Dying with Christ means believing in him and being baptized in him. This act cleanses us from past sin but does not make us sinless and unable to sin again. The last two references when read in context is talking about a dying soul displaced from God's love. If you continue reading past 2 Thessalonians 1:9 it actually says, "...everlasting destruction, away from the Presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." Death then is removal from God in the worst way you can imagine. Many don't believe that hell is a physical place and neither is heaven. Those who go to hell are removed from God's presence to live a lonely, unfulfilled, hopeless, emotionally and physically painful eternity beyond anything we can comprehend. "everlasting destruction" doesn't mean annihilation as into nothingness like matter/anti-matter, but simply a removal from God's graces and his love and cast away into absolute abject loneliness and hopelessness. Hell is very real, as is heaven, or the entire Christ story becomes immaterial. Perhaps our mental images of them is one of the many mysteries of God that we cannot possible comprehend. But make no bones about it, they are both real.
Most likely there is no god.
@@freddan6fly Most definitely you are wrong and Satan is deceiving you. I’ll pray for you in hope that you will come to your senses and ask Jesus for forgiveness before it is too late. I know it is difficult to let go of your pride and selfishness and ask for God’s love and guidance, but it is the only way. God bless!
Heaven is the acceptance of God's love. Hell is the refusal of God's mercy.
Humility is required for the first. Pride is necessary for the latter.
True love is unconditional. Love can never be harmful if rejected.
The moment you attach dire consequences and harm to rejecting the love it stops being love.
It cannot be God created hell just in case you didn’t love him back.
How can God be fully just if he imposes an eternal sentence for sins committed during a finite life? Wouldn’t a just sentence be finite?
Consider that many Abrahamic faiths, including some branches of Christianity, believe in conditional immortality, that is, simply speaking, death is a state on unconsciousness and the wicked are never resurrected, or, that the wicked are destroyed the belief in eternal hell is held by many or most but not all Christians, and Muslims, but not by other religions except maybe Zoroastrianism -- but even they may believe in conditional immortality I'm not sure.
It isnt an eternal act of punishing. The effects of the punishment are eternal, that is, the wicked being destroyed.
@@StillProtesting that’s semantic nonsense.
@@StillProtesting oh I'll just do my best in life and try not to be bad, destruction still sounds horrible
@@thewondersofawesometv1414 Only God is good. All will be destroyed unless they turn to Jesus and repent of their sins.
I'm still waiting for you to explain how committing mass murder of CHILDREN over an entire country, for the actions of a person who you even admit the afflicted had nothing to do with, is in any not just viciously vile and evil barbarism.
I legitimatelly cannot understand you can sit there and say "God is love so him committing mass slaughter of children for something they had absolutely nothing to with and were thus in no way responsible for is okay and is actually a loving act of mass child-murder by default."
And that's even before we factor in that in your story your god deliberately uses mind control to prevent the Pharaoh from doing what he wants him to to have an EXCUSE to make more innocent people suffer, for no other reason than to show off.
You just proved you have no clue. Did anyone say where those children were going to end up? If they end up in Heaven it is a far better place to be.
@@StillProtesting What.
You're joking right ? Please tell me this is sarcasm.
@@StillProtesting There is no excuse for torturing and then murdering every innocent child, baby, and fetus in the womb. In the Bible God was able to close the wombs of all the women in Abimelek's court. He could have just as easily done that 10 years before the flood so that there would have bee no innocent ones to murder.
Genesis 20:18, NIV: for the LORD had kept all the women in Abimelek's household from conceiving because of Abraham's wife Sarah.
@@StillProtesting the egyptin didnt belive in god so they would all thrown to hell but if you think all kids will go to haven dosent that mean you have no problem with abortion
@@jd2792 I believe everyone has a right to life no matter who wants it dead.
I’m leaving the faith because of this topic. Please pray for my soul
Me too, it's been eating at me. I can't believe anyone I love is gonna suffer for eternity. It makes no sense with a loving God
If a power company had unlimited power it would outrageous of them to cut off anyone’s power.
The analogy is terrible. When an engine runs out of power, it stops working and the object ceases to exist. But hell is a place where you have to be MORE ACTIVE and MORE POWERED so that you can, for eternity, feel the ultimate wrath.
@@abusafoura6594 when an engine stops working it does not cease to exist. Can’t you fix it?
And what you said is terrible. It has nothing to do with what I said.
If a power company had unlimited power (like god does), it would be ridiculous for them to cut anyone’s power, because no one is losing out by giving them power.
In the real world you give it to who pays for it because there isn’t enough to go around. If god is omnipotent there is never not enough to go around.
@@Joemamahahahaha821 you fool of a thing, I wasn't even dissing your point, just adding to it. The analogy I called terrible was of the Monk's analogy. He described hell as a place that simply lacked the kindness of God, but that should make it a void instead of eternal fire that burns you on repeat in perpetuity.
@@Joemamahahahaha821 -...This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him.
Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven?
Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
@@fernandounda3681 maybe heaven and hell aren’t real and we don’t have to worry about this spiritual warfare between god and satan …. Because it is not real
So what I hear (at least partly) when you say "are you sure you are plugged in?" is "are you sure you are a good person"? Well, I definitely try to be, even without worshipping a God who does do things that seem to be tyrannical. And I definitely do like good things to come to me (and in all fairness, can't complain in that area). I'm definitely not saying "no" to goodness, so if there is a God and he/she/it decides to "cut me of the grid", it would be because he/she/it decides I don't deserve goodness. Not because I'm saying no to it.
Also curious, you briefly admit that for example what happened to the Egyptians also happened to people who had no relationship work the pharaoh. So this happened to people who did want the goodness. It happened to babies who never even got the chance to develop enough to even be able to make the decision whether or not to stay connected to the grid. Very disappointed that you address that (all be it in a single sentence) and completely ignore that fact after that, even if it doesn't follow your arguments.
But I'm gonna take a guess here: It's ok because they went to heaven, right?
Right?
One of my reasons for not believing a good all powerfull god exists is because I got brain damage at birth which still gives problems to this day without a cure.
Shouldn't a good almighty god prevent suffering for innocent kids?
I have a good life thanks to the people and goverment around me, not because of god.
The God of the Bible is a false god, however, the reason you have suffering is for learning.
If pain were eternal, it would be pointless, cruel & evil.
However, we have suffering to learn from, and it helps God to grow in wisdom (as even God is still learning & growing)
@@TruthSpeaker. god is all-knowing, isn't he?
@@MrBanksLP The real God who exists only knows the entire PAST and SOME of what is to happen in the future, so, no, not all knowing.. however, he is still growing in wisdom.
(Edited for self correction)
@@TruthSpeaker. Um... what?? Sounds to me like you are calling yourself a god.
No, the true God declared the end from the beginning and He has not been wrong one time.
2:03 _"no need for mental gymnastics or defining words in a certain way"_
… continues the entire video with elaborate mental gymnastics and defining words in a certain way.
where in the video does he use mental gymnastics? the entire video is built upon the single thesis that God is the source of goodness, and as far as I can tell everything he says follows directly from that.
@@cartoon.raccoon You probably meant "on the single premise", the thesis is what follows ... but that's neither here nor there, I understood what you meant.
Anyway, starting with the premise that god is the source of goodness, is (ironically, might I add) the very source of the mental gymnastics.
I can declare anything to be the source of goodness and argue my way around it. I can define satan to be the source of goodness and achieve the exact same outcome.
Words and actions are being redefined in this video which are, in any other context, considered to be simply attritious ... but no, specifically for his god, we are led to believe (gaslit to believe) that eternal conscious torture is a sign of justice and goodness.
I often hear Christians say: "The best trick the devil has played, is to convince the world he doesn't exist."
I say, in the event gods and demons exist, they got close but missed a detail: "The best trick the devil has played, is to convince the world he is god."
This becomes glaringly obvious when one reads the bible wthout the unsubstantiated forgone conclusion "god is good".
This entire video is an excercise in mental gymnastics, trying to cover for an abusive god.
@@GapWim you’re right. that’s the reading you’ll get when you read the bible “as is”. it’s the mistake martin luther and the rest of the reformers made, just look at their theology and you’ll see what i mean.
i’d argue that this premise that “God is the source of goodness” wasn’t plucked out of thin air, it was justifiably derived from the rest of the teachings of the church, and i personally think that Catholicism’s teachings are logically coherent and well-structured, as far as teachings based on the bible can be. it was enough to convert me from atheism, so i’d say there’s something there.
@@cartoon.raccoon I agree that one can't read the bible "as-is" and come away with the idea that god is good. That's why it requires a lot of mental gymnastics and redefining of words and concepts to gaslight people into believing the absolute monster described in the bible is the source of all goodness.
The excuses given by Christianity in general, including the Catholic church are akin to an abuser telling its victim "I only hit you because I love you."
Religion, and I find Christianty in partcular (maybe because I know it so well ... I was raised Catholic), is wholly focused on undermining the natural moral development in humans.
It _quite litterally_ keeps people developing past the moral reasoning skills of a 6 year old child, 12 years at most when they're slow to mature.
Please check out Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development.
While not written or spoken out directly, their doctrines have the direct and damning effect that they are forbidden from developing past Level1 Stage1 of moral reasoning.
This is unsurprising when one looks at the fact their text are from a 2000 year old ethos, based on a 3300 year old ethos, which are in their turn based on a 4000 year old ethos. There is 'some' evolution ... fortunately ... but it's still missing millenia of moral development in our culture.
This lack of moral development is also the reason why it clashes with modern values towards relationships, bodily autonomy, marriage, homosexuality, transgenderism, science, birthcontrol, etc. ...
Point in case: only in 1992 the Catholic church formally apologized for "the Galileo case". 350 years after committing him to lifelong house arrest, almost 400 years after burning Giodano Brono alive at the stake ...
... in 1992 they finally admitted the earth really revolves around the sun.
This fact alone, utterly disqualifies this instiution from the claim they are divinely inspired. The excuse "humans make mistakes" is wholly insufficient to cover for these and many more (and worse) mistakes over the ages.
You are mostly poorly informed and deeply idiotic. This entire comment is utterly suffused with stupidity. It’s hard to know where to start. The Church adopted that heliocentric model pretty quickly and long before 1992.
Legit question that i'm trying to figure out: Doesnt God Know everything that Will happen? Then he would know that people would "unplug themselves" before Even creating them, he would know that people would be sent to hell before even making them, he would know every sin that You will make, and every action You Will take, that sort of waters down "Free Will" a ton
This is my problem too.. one could argue that you’re better off never having been born than to be born and wind up in hell for an eternity.. and nobody asks to be born, so how is this fair?
Yeah that’s an age old Christian dilemma. To be more specific it’s called predestination/Calvinism. Calvinists believe God predetermined who would enter Heaven. Although man technically ‘chooses’, he knew what man would choose in the end which means there’s an ‘elect’. Arminianism is the opposite belief.
I’m pretty sure Catholics believe in a combination of both but it’s ultimately a ‘mystery’ that transcends human understanding.
The key point in my understanding is that God is in eternity rather than being subject to time. It's not a progression for him wherein God creates, then goes on to wait while already knowing everything you will later do - rather all of time is present to him at once. God can know everything you're going to freely do in the future because it has already happened in the context of eternity. Consider a historical figure such as George Washington - The fact that you, as a person in the 21st century, can have knowledge of the whole course of Washington's life, doesn't mean that Washington wasn't free to choose during the course of that life. It just means that your awareness of it stands outside the frame of the progression of those events. Washington, were he able to converse with you, couldn't say that your knowledge of his future takes away his free will.
I just responded to this and suggest you read St Thomas Aquinas as he is the foremost scholar on the subject.
My simplified analogy is, if you knew me inside and out (let us say childhood friends) and were certain my future action would be somehow detrimental, does that mean that because you "know", my action is somehow impeded?
You might try to talk me out of said action, again KNOWING what my course of action will be. But does that mean my will and ability to commit said action is now halted? No.
Aquinas wrote:
"God, therefore, is the first cause, who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their actions from being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary; but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them, for He operates in each thing according to his own nature.”
Only if he posts a list of everybody who's saved and everybody who's damned. I haven't seen a list remotely like that.
I suspect the game is that YOU are operating on imperfect knowledge, and to see what you choose to do as a result of what you know.
If God sustains existence, how can somewhere exist where God does not exist? Can it be that for “hell” to “exist” there is an infinitely minimal goodness present for it to even exist. It might look like a quicksand that is sustained by God where we’re about to touch this sustained existence it just goes deeper and deeper…
REv.Aristotle's principle of privation is the one perfect and the only logico-philosophical answer; the rest are only babbling and metaphors. Bible's authors represent very often a typical Semite attitude who do not have a clue at all about the Rev.Aristotle's divine tools of logic and here, the types of causality (four) for example, Isaiah 45:7, Deut 32:39 also in NT, esp. by "John", also by (maybe) very Jesus himself in Q source, Mat 11:25-27/Lk 10:21-22.
...If you don't want goodness.... then you wont get goodness... nicely put.
If Hell is locked from within, then shouldn't some be willing to unlock it and leave???? Especially those sentenced there for the capital crime of not being convinced that the evidence merits belief?
Yes they can leave but they won't that's way they stay there forever.
The problem with the after life is that choice does not change with time it solidifies in one choice forever
@@ltc1223 people change their minds all the time, especially when presented with information not previously known or realized. If hell turns out to be true, are you really suggesting that NOBODY will be willing to take into account that they were mistaken in life and have a desire to leave??? A place of forever torment???
A woman goes to seek help with a priest.
Woman: "Priest, I need your advice.... I know someone that says that they love me, and wants to be with me forever. He says that everything he has done is for me, and he knows everything about me. He apparently has been watching me since I was a kid. He says he wants me to be his, because he loves me. But if I do not reciprocate, he will torture me. He says that he has an special place of torture he personally made for me, in case I do not love him back. What should I do?
Priest: "You should contact the police, and place a restraining order. Stay away from him"
Her: "But he says he loves me"
Priest: "No love should ever be conditional, if he truly loved you, he wouldn't torture you if you do not want to be with him. It would be painful to let you go, but he would let you go. That is what true love is. By him wanting you for himself, it shows he doesn't really love you. Someone that truly loves you should want the best for you."
Woman: "But I am truly concerned he will follow on his promise, and truly lock me up and torture me"
Priest: "Well, you should pray to God and seek guidance. Pray to him, he will help you. After all, he is the one that truly loves you"
WOman: "To God?! But he is the one I have been talking about this whole time"
That, truly, hits the nail on the head.
You came here from TMM. And Your hateful Repetition of Your Holy Religion of Atheism;s Jokes only proives how this is Polemic and not Reason and that You are irrational and Childish.
well said
Hell is a lie, it's a slander against God. Don't listen to these apostates, the Bible teaches no such thing.
This is exactly the opposite of God. He loves you so much that He's willing to respect your free will if you don't want to love Him back. This scenario you made up in your head is nonsensical.
Why does your power plant need worship? Why does it find the smell of burnt offerings pleasing? Why does it need blood sacrifice at all?
Yeah, I'd rather read in by candle light, than pay fealty to this creature you believe in.
These are the 4 questions that Christians and other religious cannot answer (not in any particular order since they are all related).
# - Why would the almighty immortal create a being in order to worship him?
# - Why does God endow His creation with reason and free will yet punsh us for exercising these faculties by doubting questioning or disbelieving in him or doing anything other than worship and obey him?
# - Why does the all-good and all-loving God allow those who believe in him, worship him and obey Him to suffer?
# - Why does the all-good and all-loving God permit evil?
I'm just getting started in my faith, and therefore I'm not saying that I'm right. I will try to answer your questions.
why would he want us to worship him. Because if he is the good one, which is beautiful, it would be quite logical that he wants us to love this side of the world rather than the ugly side.
secondly, it is not because you have the choice that you are free of consequences, on the contrary. but this is already answered in the video.
third, we are sinners, so we do evil, it is in our nature. and often it is more difficult to oppose evil than to embrace it. Life is a battle against yourself which is difficult, and if it wasn't the case it would have no meaning.
fourth, if he allows evil, it is precisely because he leaves us free will. if we could only do good, this would not be the case.
sorry if it is too long but i try my best to explain my thoughts
@@long-limbs-alias-sisifr You have clearly failed to understand my questions. That is because you are blinded by faith and can't the difference between 'subjective' and 'objective'
Faith is a subjective personal irrational belief that is not founded in nor dependant on rational, logical or empirical evidence.
A Sceptic is one who asks questions and requires evidence.
ST. POPE JOHN PAUL II: : “Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair... The concept of hellfire, the fiery furnace and the unquenchable fire of Gehenna need to be interpreted as symbolic language... The risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry, ‘Abba, Father!’” (Rm 8:15; Gal 5:6).
Hell is a difficult concept. And the idea that Hell is a place received by those who actively reject goodness. But would that not allow for caring generous non-Christians to enter Heaven?
I don’t see why not! But I’m not a theologian
They must accept Christ.
I definitely agree with the idea that Hell is locked from the inside. While I don't know if Hell is a crowded place, I think that those who are in Hell chose to go there and chose to stay there.
I happen to think about that from time to time. Yet, there have been mystics with Church approval has stated that they are souls in hell.
Go ahead with the comments when I say this it's like the song my own prison.
CS Lewis, quite possibly the greatest Christian philosopher of the 20th century. His profundity never fails to impress. Even more inspiring to think that such a brilliant man was a steadfast agnostic at one point and that his friendship with the great Tolkien (the greatest author of the 20th and beyond) is what helped him see the Light, almost like Saul of Tarsus or as we know him, St Paul
@@Roman-Labrador you know you make a good point. I think it goes more depending on the person. For example, the judgment of a Catholic will be different than an Atheist.
God, in his unconditional love, has given us the free will to decide that. What is your choice? My choice is to follow Jesus, as he is the way. I may fail often (too often), but it is the way I now want to be on.
*sigh* Well, here it is. This question, for me as an agnostic, is one of the big ones, the deal breakers that renders the Biblical narrative nonsensical. I do appreciate that you acknowledge and respect the difficulty of this issue, you don't just dismiss it as a simple misconception and laugh it off. So points for that.
But after that is where I start to disagree. At the risk of sounding extremely arrogant, I get the impression that Christians (willfully or not) tend not to think through the implications of God. If He exists as depicted in the Bible, then we are to believe that He created everything. Not just the good things, but EVERYTHING. He created every form of negativity, too. This might be countered with the assertion that Satan or humanity created those things when they sinned for the first time, but no. Bare minimum, if God knows everything that will ever happen ahead of time, then He created Satan and humanity KNOWING IN ADVANCE that we would sin. He knew it, and He let it play out anyway, which is as good as doing it Himself. We can then logically extrapolate that He creates each individual human knowing beforehand each and every sin that they will commit. He knows in advance whether each individual will choose to obey Him, and therefore He creates people that He knows He will condemn to Hell. Let me repeat that: He knows before a sinner is born that He will be sending that sinner to Hell. And He creates the sinner anyway. Free will never enters the picture if He knows what you will do before you do it. If He already knows you will go to Hell, and He loves you, why does He create you?
Then there's Hell itself. A lot of Christians like to downplay it in the words they use to describe it. It is ETERNAL TORTURE. Torture beyond anything we can imagine, and it will never, ever, ever, stop. For any reason. That's not punishment. Being spanked, that's a punishment. Being fined ten thousand dollars, that's a punishment. Life in prison is a punishment. ETERNAL, UNCEASING, ABSOLUTELY RELENTLESS TORTURE is not punishment. We can't even wrap our heads around what that is. No form of negativity any human has ever inflicted even approaches the evil that Hell is. And God is prepared to send me there because I don't believe what's written in a two thousand year old book?
Then there's your description of what rejecting Christianity is like, which is frankly disgusting. Do you honestly believe that every non-Christian is filled with anger and hatred and bitterness and just experiences no good at all? Why in the world would anyone become a Hindu or a Buddhist or any other religion if doing so cuts them off from the source of positivity? You think they all just sit around counting the ways they've been wronged and plotting against each other? That's your perception of the rest of the world?
Christians definitely think those things through. Some better than others, and some would argue exactly what you just said (the Calvinists. I don't agree with them).
I remember thinking exactly what you just said back when I was 11, and it drove me to literal insanity. That exact thought that God basically built people to be evil made me almost suicidal. I forget the exact reason why I eventually came out of it, but it seemed like an excuse to simply reject the good that I never had a right to, just as those who commit evil do so by rejecting the opportunity to do good with the good they were given. I noticed, in my experience of it, my own free will operating, even if I couldn't metaphysically justify it. There are philosophers who do a pretty good job of metaphysically explaining it, but personally that particular issue doesn't bug me enough to look into it. I suggest you do, since it does bother you to that extent, rather than relying solely on your own understanding of it. I hope that doesn't sound condescending, I don't mean to be, but whenever I rely solely on myself and people who aren't "the best" on the issue to think things through, I notice myself entering Hell.
On your issue with Hell itself, it's not necessarily the case that Hell is "eternal torture". Many Christians believe it is, but many of the Church Fathers, and even many instances in the Bible, suggest otherwise. Torture for the sake of torture isn't sensible, you're right. A common understanding of it is that Hell is a failure to participate in God properly. Such a failure may mean that any "contact" with God is impossible and the soul gets "banished" from the source of good (as explained in this video), and what exactly this implies for that soul isn't entirely certain, and Christians actually can't judge who does and who doesn't end up in that circumstance. That's all up to God. The nature of it is inherently mysterious, but the known path away from it--the Christian life-- is not. Another explanation which makes sense, and is found in many very old Christian thoughts, is that Hell is incorrect participation in God; that is, everyone will be in the presence of God, but not everyone will be properly "oriented" towards Him. His light would flood everyone, but the experience of that light would be different depending on one's own acceptance or rejection of it. For those who reject it, it would be terrible, while those who accept it would experience communion with God Himself. Again, who would be in one position and who would be in the other, no one can say for certain. In these cases, some Christians would argue that there is a remote possibility that nonChristians may be saved, but that the clarity of this being the case is not worth the risk. In any case, knowing that God is merciful and just and has already given us so much good we don't deserve, there is good reason to believe--whatever your persuasion--that the issue of Hell is only an issue of our understanding, but not a true issue for God Himself.
Btw, I'm not saying these are certainly true. But I am saying that these are two types of dominant interpretations of Hell that are well argued for and contradict the "Hell fire is fire" sort of thing. Obviously, what I'm saying here doesn't solve anything, but I am saying that you might want to look into these things instead of relying on yourself and what your understanding of the Christian doctrine is.
For your last point, I don't think that Fr. was saying what you said he was saying, or at least he didn't seem to intend that. It looks like you're projecting prior experiences with Christians onto this particular one. Were he to respond (I doubt he will due to business), I'm certain he would clarify his position for you.
Anywho, I hope you have a good day. The sun is out and the air is there to breathe.
@@educationalporpoises9592 Yes, I probably am projecting some things, and certainly came across as harsher than I should've. I apologize to Fr., if he happens to read this.
With regards to your other points, I just.... wonder why there has to be any mystery at all. Why are such critical ideas that determine the eternal fate of your soul made so complex and open to interpretation? Why are seemingly good, welcoming alternative religions allowed to exist if they actively pull billions of people away from God? I just feel like the One True Correct Path should be as easily understood as possible, and lit up in neon so no one can accidentally miss it. And I realize I'm piling more questions onto the plate here, but they're mostly rhetorical, so. This stuff just irritates me. It made me actively antagonistic toward Christianity for a while, there, although nowadays I try to look for the good as much as possible. It's easy to forget to do that. There is a lot of real good and helpful wisdom in this religion, whether it's the full, literal truth or not.
Foreknowledge is not fore-willing. Every aspiring parent knows the highly likely possibility of their child disobeying them, but they go ahead and have children anyway. God began with a perfect world and perfect beings. Even Lucifer was perfect when he was created, but the fact that "God is love" demands the existence of choice in all that associate with him regardless of whether they are created or not. It is a very high risk. Notice also that He knew it would cost Him His life when He would walk among us, we would spit on Him and despise Him, even driving Him to the point of deadly sorrow, yet He took the risk. If He knew all this, why then go ahead and create? Because He wants a creation that He relates with in a loving relationship, not automatons. Besides, Hell is NOT burning now, and, when kindled, it will NOT burn eternally- this is unbiblical. Just take time and read carefully
@@Antobuya Could you give me some sources you have for claiming hell won't burn eternally? I've heard similar claims before, but I've never found at scripture or other sources supporting it.
@@Matt-fg7ut KJV Revelation 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Thank you, Father Casey, for explaining so beautifully! I learned the story of Hell being closed from the inside ("The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis) from a sermon several weeks ago at my little Episcopal church. I really like your power plant illustration - that really makes sense. I don't want to be separated from God's love! I spent decades being selfish, resentful, self-hating, terrified, jealous and cynical. I truly feel God has rescued me, and I'm grateful. I ask for God's guidance and hope I will continue to grow in faith, trust and love - and stay connected to God.
I don’t always agree with what Fr. Casey has to say in his videos but I’m happy to say that he’s pretty spot on in this video. Most people don’t understand the nature of God’s Justice because His justice isn’t like human justice. He has no lack of love in His Justice because He IS Love itself. He IS Truth.
People like George Carlin think the 10 commandments are unfair and cruel but if they are followed they only lead to our happiness and flourishing (and those around us). As humans we selfishly grasp after pleasure and lose true happiness as a result.
Fr. Casey’s example of Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” is a great example of this. What Fr. Casey didn’t mention is that, in the book there is a single moment where each person has an opportunity to “choose between” simply letting go of whatever selfishness or sin they are holding onto and accept the free gift of heaven or turn away in order to hold onto selfishness, greed, lust (etc) and move on to their own individual hell - separating themselves from everyone (and God in particular).
If God is love itself, then love is cruelty.
Wouldn't a loving God forgive one who went to hell and suddenly realized his or her mistake? Seems rather psychopathic to me since God would be aware of each being's suffering every moment...
okay question: how does one reconcile the fact that a person can have a sincere belief that God doesn't exist but can have myriad good things in their life.
Let's suppose that God exists. If this is true then an atheists belief that God doesn't exist doesn't change the fact that God is. Now with that said even if one does not believe (in God) and if God is the source of all good then one could not do good without participating in God's grace.
@@jon6car thanks 4 answering
Because God lets the “sun shine its light” both to the good and even to the bad as well.
Because God still saves those who sincerely believe that He doesn’t exist by reason not of their own fault but are unknowingly doing His will of loving His brethren, because doing so is loving Him.
And both of these facts are explicit in the Bible.
And all these three realities are manifestations of the ever infinite and patient love and mercy of God.
Common grace
As a cultural catholic I always wondered this viewpoint, I think if there was a deity then I believe they would have their own choices in regards to dealing with Humanity
The demons are damned and will have their prey. The grand cosmic game - a contest for souls - is played to the rules. The demons hate God but they hate humanity even more. They contest for our damnation by wagering their own. The stakes are high - our immortal souls.
The thing I don’t understand about this argument:
“God doesn’t want cyborgs. He
wants free thinking beings.”
So will we be free thinking beings in heaven?
Or will we always know that we can sin
and get kicked out of heaven?
And if we can’t sin in heaven, are we free?
And if we are free and sinless in heaven, couldn’tGod make us that way on earth? But simply chooses not to?
If God choose to make people sinless they wouldn't be free, all sin and evil comes from mans own free will to disobey God. We freely choose between sin and grace while on Earth, living in a state of Grace in heaven means we could choose sin, but simply wouldnt want to for the same reason we wouldnt jump off a 100 ft cliff now.
@@haronsmith8974 thank you for your reply. Couldn’t God have chosen to create us all in a “state of grace” on earth?
I understand He’s not obligated to. I’m asking about the speakers statement that if we can only choose good we aren’t free, and that is why sin and punishment are necessary.
You seem to be saying we will only choose good in heaven and we will also be free because we will be in a state of grace. Wouldn’t it follow that God could have done that on earth? Where we are free and good? and there’s no need for punishment?
@@christian1172-z9e Church Fathers have answered this, it requires a bigger scope of understanding so just a little patience. This is the story of Adam and Eve in Paradise, where the world was made that made sense. Adam and Eve would have lived on for eternity glorifying God and everything around them. Adam and Eve were also in a state of Grace, and could freely do whatever they wanted in Paradise with their free will. God even gave them the option to disobey him with the apple, which they did and ate from.
The moment they eat this Apple they commit the first sin "Original Sin". With this sin committed they no longer are in communion with the Lord, and since God is the "Creator" they then slowly begin to die. Also since they are no longer in communion with the Lord they no longer have the "beatific vision" and everything becomes short term pursuits of the ego rather than long term commits to everything. (Essentially the world becomes darwinistic in nature and cruel.)
All children of Adam and Eve are also fallen being, and we have cut the lord out of this world. People start naturally dying from sin, the world spins imperfect for millenia. People start living vain short lives and are just forgotten.
God is justice, and he is nature. He is simply letting man reap what they have sowed. Even when Christians are saved they are granted "new life" because this is forfeit which means they are still going to die, and in the end God will even remake everything to be perfect once again.
@@christian1172-z9e Also I typed this on my phone, so if my grammar is bad I am sorry.
@@haronsmith8974 If God is going to remake everything to be perfect, why play this sick game with us.
But what if someone does good works, is a good tree that bears good fruit, and is humble and generous and selfless, but they don’t believe in God or Jesus. They do everything right except for believe. So they still don’t deserve to be a part of that power grid? When someone says “you don’t have to do as I say, but if you don’t you will starve, wither and die” that’s not really a choice at all.
What Jesus taucht is that we are all sinners. We all deserve hell. Accepting yourself as a sinner is a part of being christian. By admiting to doing wrong you are forgiven by god.
@@ivoh7842 I should clarify that I am Christian and believe in Jesus Christ, but I just fundamentally cannot agree with Fr. Casey’s interpretation here for what I stated above. If I’m understanding what you’re saying, you’re suggesting that by understanding your flaws and admitting to them in an effort to do good, you find forgiveness in the lord? Because I would agree, but that person who does all that but isn’t specifically a “Christian” should also receive the same forgiveness. Because if God rewards goodness, goodness can come independent of a religion. If not, then God is only rewarding those who chose to be on his side, which would be the opposite of good, and the opposite of graceful.
@@Brokenlance We could include in this category all those who did not get to choose to be on his side. If you are born in a polytheist culture and nobody told you about this loving God, how much are you connected to him (power plant analogy)? How will you know there is a choice to make, other than sticking to the moral code of your culture?
I really love your channel and your attitude, but I don't really think you addressed the main point you're trying to refute, at least I didn't feel as though you did. As someone who doesn't believe in God or in Hell, you spent a lot of time talking about how Hell is justifiable because without God humans lack goodness. You list the sins that those without God would inevitably have, but how many nonbelievers do you know? I'm not greedy, lustful, selfish, etc. and am great friends and have wonderful relationships with my catholic friends. Saying that Hell is justified because nonbelievers lack goodness seems like a really easy way for christians to simply say "I am simply a better person than you by divine right" the same way monarchs used to rule via mandates from heaven. What about those born in countries that aren't Christian who were never exposed to your god? Is it impossible for them to contain the goodness you describe, despite them easily being capable of living just and good lives?
It would be interesting if the channel host would address this. I think teaching religious people to think that non-religious people are bad "have no goodness" is very dangerous.
@@wendyleeconnelly2939 God does good through man. No man is good, only God.
Every good deed unbelievers do essentially comes from God, so if they follow their conscience it is God's inspiration.
Probably your best video yet. Thank you Fr Casey.
He respects our free will?
King James Bible: Exodus 9:12
"And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses."
Definition of harden one's heart
: to stop having kind or friendly feelings for someone or caring about something.
She hardened her heart against him after their breakup. All the discord hardened my heart to politics.
No, he doesn't. If he respected Pharaoh's free will, he would have NOT messed with his heart. God FORCED him to disregard Moses' warning.
Hell is a place of eternal torment, suffering, agony, torture, and evil. God CREATED Hell. First he damns all of humanity for the actions of TWO PEOPLE who were innocent of the consequences. Then he sends himself to sacrifice to himself to protect us from him. But that "salvation" has a condition; believe in him. If you don't, you go to Hell, even though he clearly said he died for ALL OUR SINS, disbelief & disobedience IS SIN, so if people are still going to Hell then either he died for nothing or he lied.
I wouldn't wish Hell on anyone, no matter how bad they were in life, NOTHING can justify an eternity of endless torture. But God would send ANYONE to Hell for the most trivial things imaginable.
So yes, he most definitely is a Bloodthirsty Tyrant. And he isn't good because he's the source, its really that he is the most powerful, and he follows "Might Makes Right", where the weak are trampled by the strong. That doesn't make him good, it just reinforces the fact that he is evil.
You have it completely backwards.
God is not the powerplant, he is the lightbulb.
He is powerd by people believing in him. When all Christians size to exist he does aswell, just like every other forgotten god.
I don't mean for this to come off as combative or to ridicule, but as a genuine question. If God is the source of all goodness, can people who deny God be good people? Is it possible for people to behave in a good, moral way out of compassion for their fellow human beings, while simultaneously rejecting the notion of God? Is God acting through these people despite their rejection of Him? Would He still punish them, despite living good, moral lives, simply for their nonbelief?
God gives common graces to everyone alive, this is not the same as salvific grace, Jesus says that we must believe in Him and follow Hos commandments, if someone does not believe then they are not doing what Jesus told them to do
The answer above is good. I would also add that people are not punished only for their unbelief. They are punished for the sins which they commit. We must be saved from the sins that we commit in addition to living holy lives, but no one except for Christ can earn salvation. Rather, we must accept Christ's gift and pledge allegiance to Him. A failure to do that, what you described as non-belief, will result in being cut off from God. Hope this helps.
The Bible says nobody is good except God. We are all sinners, including the believers. We are not good people. We are saved through the blood of Jesus and not on our own merit.
There is not a single way for someone to be a good person apart from Jesus because that term is dealing with Gods moral code, which is the 10 commandments.
God only called creating humans "good" until they sinned. We are not good and no, this isnt relative or perspective. Gods perspective determines goodness because He is the only One that does not change.
@@StillProtesting I'm a good person and an atheist. I have friends who are good people and are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists. . . none of us believe in Jesus. Your statement is flawed.
Some people deny God because He has been introduced to them as tyrant or cruel. But God tries to reach every person as long as they live.
I like these kinds of messages. Thank you. I hope people will continue to seek and love God daily.
The problem with claiming 'god/Yahweh' is the source of all goodness is that it's just a claim and other religious gods have that claim too. But any god that would make an infinite punishment for a finite crime cannot be considered good or just.
Not to mention it renders the god concept to be more abusive
Nope if God is the source of good then anything he does can't be seen as bad.
Why? Because you can't judge the standard of good with it's own standard that doesn't make any sense.
You would have to find a higher standard of mortality that transcends God to judge if he's good or not... Which doesn't exist.
@@Patchlock61 The point is simply to illustrate that Christians have considered Yahweh to be 'fair'; but any rational human being should know that it isn't fair to condemn people forever for something they don't know or can't verify. It's vindictive in fact to do something that callous. That's why I also mentioned that Yahweh claiming to be the creator is just a claim. A claim that can't verified and is claimed by other alleged dieties.
@@multi-milliondollarmike5127 he is being fair let's say you live to 90 years old you had 90 years to get right with God if you die without getting right with him that's on you.
He also gave us a way to be saved through Jesus and again if you die without getting saved THAT'S ON YOU. Dying in your sins is an unforgivable sin.
He's being fair by giving you still much time.
@@Patchlock61 Not fair as in an infinite punishment for a finite crime. He was also culpible in creating sin because he knew what would happen with Adam and Eve who were new and ignorant to the world and still allowed it. Then instead of just creating another set of humans who were sinless or even simply just wiping out sin immediately he allowed it to exist and persist from generation to generation. This god allows people to be born guilty because of his incompetence or apathy. I could go on about this, but I digress. There's also the problem of people just being skeptical of the claims of the Bible and who don't believe. They'd be damned for recognizing that absurd things are absurd, like talking snakes, talking donkeys, virgin births, etc. People don't believe Yahweh is real, and we're all just expected to believe anyway despite the fact that other dieties claim to be the creator of everything. Not one has demonstrated that they are real, and even if they could it still wouldn't mean they're worthy of being served or praised.
POPE JOHN PAUL II: Can God, who loves man so much, permit the man who rejects him to be condemned to eternal torment? The silence of the church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt. 26:24) his words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.
Has the creator ask that what it wanted to create to be created? (contradictio in terminis)
It seems not. Then the creator is fully responsible for every action that it's creations makes.
No threats from the creator to it's creations.
It is also a weakness of the creator to threaten with hell.
Why not sending some of all what is created back where it came from.
But no, because then it's lost power over it's creation.
Mankind makes every thing up about the creator and it's creating of things.
Especially MEN.
I have a question, a thought experiment of sorts, and I was wondering if anyone could give it either validity or condemnation. For the sake of my willingness to learn and my own personal vice of curiosity.
While the contents of this video is something I’ve held to myself and feel comfort in, it does still leave me thinking if the souls sent to such a place are entirely devoid of rescue.
So, my thinking is (and if anyone knows any official reference to the topic I would appreciate any direction) that punishment in Hell seems to always go in tandem with a duration of time. “Until the end of time”, “Forever”, even eternity is by definition a state of time; though I admit it may be a stretch for my thinking. Continuing this though, God created time yes? So He isn’t beholden to any laws of time, only creation is. So God and I would imagine Heaven would be outside of what time could be. At least as far as we could understand it. And I’m under the thinking that even time as we would understand it would have an end, all of creation has an end as it has a beginning. My thinking then is: at the end of everything, even time itself, could those trapped in Hell be freed and redeemed?
I know that this isn’t an idea to treat with any real value, but it’s more of a wishful thought. That even people that trap themselves in the dark won’t stay there forever. Of course I’m open to being entirely wrong as well, I just wanted to throw this out there to see what fish I catch. So to speak.
Thank you for your time.
I am happy that I'm not the only one to wish that there is some hope for people in hell. It is understandeable that by refusing the love of God one can condamn themself, but what if they came to regret it? For me it doesn't make sense for them to suffer more.
You're right about God creating time, but it doesn't nessesarily mean that it will end at some point. For God to destroy time is to destroy everything, which is pretty much wasted effort for God, but more importantly He wouldn't destroy us if He loves us, right? If we would argue that time would end by natural causes, we would get to the Heat Death of the Universe, which is basically universe being frozen, which doesn't work for your theory as souls aren't material.
I recon we can just pray that nobody will be in hell forever.
I was just having this same thought. My hope is that they'll cease to exist after time has ended. Sort of like an eternal sleep. But there's nothing further that's biblical to support that.
There's actually an entire theological tradition of universal reconciliation, some which work on similar premises to those you've presented. David Bentley Hart's "That All Shall Be Saved" is a modern and accessible argument for universal eventual salvation which you might find interesting.
It is interesting that the Greek Church fathers, in some ways closest to the New Testament, believed in universal reconciliation. The idea that this is wishful thinking seems to be circular reasoning which already assumes that there is nothing Biblically that could support this belief.
I definitely agree with the fact that Hell will come to an end. For how can there be, "no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither... any more pain..." Rev. 21:4 if there shall still be souls burning in hell? The question that has driven many to atheism has been the paradoxical logic of a God who delights in mercy burning "souls" eternally. I am persuaded that even "...death and hell..." shall be "...cast into the lake of fire..." Rev. 20:14
If time is in the physical realm and hell is not, then when the world will come to an end, time itself will come to an end, but hell will not because it doesn't exist in the physical realm (in which time exists).
I've read a bit of Augustine. I don't think he believed in a literal hell. I don't think Pope Francis does either... I'm going with these guys.
Thank you for this, Fr. I wish I had you for my Theology degree lectures. You have a great talent for simplifying what can be difficult theological concepts.
@YAJUN YUAN That's now what this video claims.
@YAJUN YUAN Hell is just "the grave." It's the Lake of Fire that he uses to eradicate the wicked.
@YAJUN YUAN Yes. I agree.
@YAJUN YUAN you literally said the same exact thing I did...
Anyone who endorses never-ending pain as a punishment method, IS themselves a wicked heartless person. Period.
I believe this all makes sense, but the better question we should be asking is what hell is like? Similar to most Christians, I grew up being taught of it as a place where you feel unimaginable pain that never stops and nor gets satisfied. This of course did not sit right with me and my perspective of Christianity started to change. After abandoning the traditional concept of hell, I've discovered annihilationism, which simply means you die. Whether or not you suffer for some time in hell or instantly die is highly debatable. In summary annihilationism is basically what an Atheist believes, but the only difference is that it only applies to the rejecters of God.
I believed annihilationism for about a year, but even though I saw it as a more tolerable concept to believe, it still didn't seem humane under God's conditions.
This is when I've discovered Universalism. These group of Christians believe that God will eventually save everyone sooner or later. In the Universalism community, they disagree on whether or not hell exists, but they can all agree that if it does, it's for the sake of your soul being cleansed which you may know as purgatory.
Universalism is what I now believe in. I'm not confident in my belief, but considering how many different arguments that can be made on what is precisely true, the best thing us Christians can do is follow what we think is right. I don't mean that independently, but more of what I mean is follow what you think God would do. There's thousands of Christian literature out there, and all of it was written by humans who are flawed and biased towards their opinions.
In total summary, believe in what you think, feel, and faithfully makes you the best human you could possibly be.
Sure, I can say “That doesn’t sound like how I would set things up”….
But, then again, I am NOT the almighty, sovereign, holy, righteous creator of the universe and my soul. I don’t see the “big picture” like he does.
So, I will defer to him, even if it is contrary to what I would do.
I figure looking at the Bible is the way to go. It is the truth, scary or not.
And it tells me that if I believe the following gospel of salvation, I am saved and don’t have to worry about hell at all:
- we are ALL sinners, and those sins leave a disgusting stain on us that prevents us from entering heaven.
- good deeds don’t erase sins; i.e. we cannot erase the stain of our sins. No matter what we do, we cannot EARN our way into Heaven.
- Jesus (God the Son) volunteered to suffer and die on the cross in order to save us; he took the punishment for our sins.
- because of what Jesus did, all of our sins are forgiven; he essentially bought our ticket to Heaven with his blood.
- 3 days after his death, Jesus was resurrected in a glorified body.
- by being thankful for Jesus’ sacrifice, and feeling sorry for my sins and making a commitment to try and please God and stay away from sin … and accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I AM SAVED!
Easy peasy. I have no need to worry about hell.
@@relaxAndBeCool I'm not scared of myself going to hell as I do love Jesus and accept him into my heart with all my being. What I have a problem with however, is the idea of anyone being in hell forever. I'm not the kindest nor most selfless person you'll ever meet, but I do have enough compassion to a degree where I want everyone regardless of what they've done to be saved.
Since God's love is greater than mine and the rest of humanity combined, I believe he will save everyone. Some will suffer through intense pain until they accept Jesus in purgatory, but in the end all will be okay. Not just myself and my fellow Christians, everyone. If I love everyone enough to not want anyone to go to hell forever, God is the same way but an infinite times more loving, caring, forgiving, and compassionate than I am and anyone else will ever be.
Am I certain I'm right? No. None of us are perfect, but I have faith.
I'll see you in heaven, fellow Christian.
Most early church fathers agreed with you:
"Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_
"When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_
"What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_
"Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_
"The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_
"So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_
"For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_
"Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_
"'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_
"Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_
"After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_
Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.*
Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5, 1905 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
In his omniscience, God knew that a large portion of humanity would be tortured in hell for eternity. So why did he create man with flaws and weaknesses inclined toward sin and hell? Sounds sadistic! Is this "justice"?
In pondering these questions myself over the years, I have come to wonder if Hell is less a place of "active" punishment and more of a void ... in essence, the absence of God's presence, the absence of His goodness and therefore without the sources of comfort, healing, and relief that His presence would offer: truly, the dark, lonely and eternal night of the soul. Hell, indeed.
My understanding of it is... the flames of hell are that of God's love. The way the individual reacts to His love depends upon the state of his soul. In gehenna we are not capable of love, so we only feel hatred and the total pain of loss, knowing our willful rejection of God. The pain of purgatory is a pain of longing, very difficult. Do your best my friend.
@@AceyBleach, that's how I see the flames of hell as well. Also, the person is fighting that love, possibly because of such things as pride, hate, and unforgiveness. I recall a private revelation, possibly Fatima, where the seers saw flames emanating from those in hell as well as external flames. Perhaps such internal flames were the above mentioned pride, etc.
Plus hell fire.
You guys are ridiculous. You think a loving God would punish HIS CREATION for eternity? Wow. Glad I dont follow that one...
I've pictured Hell as worse than fire, it's a cessation of existence, where all there is is pain. Kinda like voluntarily walking into a woodchipper, a fate far worse than death. I proceeded to have a bit of a panic attack thinking about all the people who, through their own decisions, had chosen that, because I didn't want that to happen to anybody. What helped me was the realization that we can pray for people retroactively (this is possible because God is beyond time), so I do, as often as I can, and hope that it helps. It's not as concrete as I wish it was, but at least it's something
God seems kind of gaslight-y. “You did it to yourself”
You do do it to yourself. He is not gonna force anyone to love him and so he is not gonna force anyone to come to heaven. Imagine forcing someone to marry you?
@@Joe-uw5rv That analogy only works if my alternative offer to marrying me is that I torture the person. How is that not force?
@@Joe-uw5rv Imagine someone telling you: "either you marry me or you're thrown into boiling oil. You're free to choose, of course".
@@Joe-uw5rvyeah ur free to choose, if you dont choose the right thing thoe your gonna get tourtured for eternity, and also maybe your judt not lucky and you will not get the right life path to love me
@@haitaelpastor976
You're taking the analogy too literally. It is simple: There is nothing outside of God that has goodness absolutely. God invites everyone to share in that goodness for all eternity. If you freely choose to reject God and place yourself outside His goodness you will find yourself in a place and state that is hell, which is the absence of God, and all the torture that comes with it.
You might like to check out TMM's response video to this called "You're going to hell because you choose to".
Yep, he had very thoughtful responses.
Wrong.
Who’s TMM? What’s his channel called?
@@mke_gal His channel's called TMM.
If evil can exist outside of God being the source, why could not goodness and love as well?
Evil itself is not a thing. It's just absence of good.
@@KingPingviini And what is good?
Im not religious anymore, i was controlled by the fear that a Loving God will send you to hell because of a few rules you broke and you dont believe him. Im human, and i wouldnt want anyone i love to go to such a horrible and torturous place. Even if they disowned me and never wanted anything to do with me. Id still want them in a Heaven type place. So the fact that i have more compassion and love for my loved ones more then a *God is kinda dumb.*
I dont mind Religion, because it can bring great comfort to people. Especially my grandmother.
Theres a great interview done by *Keith Morrison of Dateline NBC back in August of 2006.*
You can find the full interview on TH-cam but its too long to copy and paste here, so ill shortened it a bit.
Retired Episcopal bishop *John Shelby Spong* said the following :
*"I don’t think Hell exists. I happen to believe in life after death, but I don’t think it’s got a thing to do with reward and punishment. Religion is always in the control business, and that’s something people don’t really understand. It’s in a guilt-producing control business. And if you have Heaven as a place where you’re rewarded for you goodness, and Hell is a place where you’re punished for your evil, then you sort of have control of the population. And so they create this fiery place which has quite literally scared the Hell out of a lot of people, throughout Christian history. And it’s part of a control tactic. But I think there’s a sense in most religious life of reward and punishment in some form. The church doesn’t like for people to grow up, because you can’t control grown-ups. That’s why we talk about being born again. When you’re born again, you’re still a child. People don’t need to be born again. They need to grow up. They need to accept their responsibility for themselves and the world.*
*Every church I know claims that ‘we are the true church’ - that they have some ultimate authority, ‘We have the infallible Pope,’ ‘We have the Bible.’… The idea that the truth of God can be bound in any human system, by any human creed, by any human book, is almost beyond imagination for me."*
*I mean, God is not a Christian. God is not a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindi or Buddhist. All of those are human systems, which human beings have created to try to help us walk into the mystery of God. I honor my tradition. I walk through my tradition. But I don’t think my tradition defines God. It only points me to God."*
Im not telling people what to believe, thats up to you. idk exactly what to believe myself, but i absolutely hate the idea of the Church using the fear as a tool to gain people. It probably started way back in History, and they are just going along with it because its written down, but it needs to change now, because Theres no freedom that way.
You should watch the full interview, its quite good
Brilliant Father! Keep up the great work.
“Not because God is angry and jealous..” With so many verses in the Bible saying God is angry and jealous, you can say this with a straight face is beyond comprehension.
Good point!
Oh yeah!
@@TheCheapPhilosophy Yeah.
Anger and jealousy are emotions. God is slow to anger as it says in the book.
@@shaynestewart9297 But he gets angered in the end.
You really have a way of simplify things and making it easy to understand. Even though I am not 100 percent sure there is a God, I still wish to choose the light.
If I might ask, if you do not mind answering, why are you not sure?
I used to be agnostic for years but a few years back, I decided to be a strong believer based on my research. Happy to explain it if you want.
@@LostArchivist Perhaps because it seems too good to be true. I also have never seen or felt any kind of proof. I just need to learn more
@@Nick-cb2ht That would be lovely. Where would the best place be for me to start?
@@renferal5290I went through a similar process at the start of covid. I’d highly recommended watching youtubers like ‘Inspiring philosophy’ who has a lot of science related arguments for god. Or ‘Capturing Christianity’ who’s known for interviewing Christian scholars on tough topics. Or if you wanna go deeper down the rabbit whole I’d order some books. I can recommend some if you’d like.
Free will idea is great, but which father would let their children that loves swimming in dangerous areas drown to death because of "free will" ?
This is just an opinion from a non expert. I simply tried to answer to the best of my abilities.
The children have been thrown a life preserver in the form of Jesus Christ.
And for free will... If you have a safety net or are trapped in a protective bubble, are you truly free? Perhaps you don't really like the idea of free will in the first place. God wants truly free people with free will.
@@darnit1944 Yeah that's very difficult to apprehend. I'm also not an expert, far from it, because I turned into theological questions only recently. Just trying to have questions, to not fall into blind obedience to man-made myths. Not closing the door to Jesus, far from it. A bit sceptical of maybe how man have used religion and maybe scriptures for power though. But I'm just learning and my point of view have little value.
@@EmilienBandrac You raised a really good question. But don't let that doubt ruins your relationship with God. He gave us the capability of rational thoughts for a reason.
When you find your answer, I hope your faith grows even stronger. And perhaps share it with me since i am also curious.
@@darnit1944 The example of Thomas the apostle is about that, right ?
Honest question.
This is not meant as a gotcha, or some sort trick question. I really want to know.
If hell is the absence of God. And god wants us to come to him willingly, giving us free choice in the matter.
Then why wouldn't your god simply grant us oblivion.
We didn't choose to exist.
He made us against our will. Why then condemn us to an eternity of suffering if we can simply return to the nothing from before?
'He made us against our will.' ..well just be honest..you love your live, ok.
@@ast3663 Wether or not anyone enjoys or hates their life is irrelevant. The question is why punish when you can erase?
I was raised Catholic and everything you said was flipped for me, I desperately clung to prayer and still felt alone, trying to act as god wanted left me feeling inadequate, and the idea of god having a plan made me panic, because what if I wasn’t doing something that was part of that plan. And after years of struggling with faith, I left it because I realized that nobody was listening. I still get anxious about things, but I’m so much better than I was. Now I’m an active atheist, but I watch your channel because it’s different than the American evangelicals saying that evolution is wrong. I do enjoy your content, but I’m honestly thinking of starting my own to do response videos.
Your own 'response' programming, now, that would be interesting, C J. Your response, above, is rather revealing - about you .. in what you seem to 'expect' from others; and, rather like 'The Young Pope' character in his struggles it is a genuinely honest human subject - self (if still profoundly misunderstood by oneself). The Catholic understanding of the concept 'God', however, is not as if one personal being hustling along mightily among others, but of Being per se, from which being and beings arise (including through free-will, evolution, bio-chemistry and matter); now that is a little startling, indeed we'd lie to ourselves if we rejected the 'fear' aka awe it involves - but what we basically struggle against is not another 'self' but 'Being' (so far beyond our limited control or convention); divine planning is clearly very different to human control (or we would not be - us).
Where Does Life Come From? Evolution and God's Creation w/ Fr. Dominic Legge, O.P. (Aquinas 101) TH-cam (so don't expect a lesson in brain surgery).
;o)
Congrats on active Atheism.
I can understand doubt and the need to investigate these things for oneself.
I to at one time was Agnostic, Atheist , I did investigate other religions and faiths for about 30.years. Even Satanism was investigated with no fear on my part and no "evil" outcome came of that.
What did come with all those years of study and open minded investigation was I could make an intelligent and well informed decision concerning my life.
Experiences with Jesus happened often during this time of research ( experiences I tried to dismiss) and that was paramount to my decision.
Keep seeking my friend
You will find what you are looking for.
Be Blessed
+t+
@@TheLeonhamm I realize, youtube comment makes it hard communicate complex ideas, but from what I think you are saying, involves god being less of a who and more like a force of nature? (I could very well be wrong) but the duplicity of “god is mysterious” vs god definitely intervened in the bible, is god an active agent or one that sits back and watches? And when I was a believer I would have sworn up and down that I understood the trinity, but even the church calls it a mystery of faith because it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Being outside of it all and understanding the blood atonement for original sin along with the constant barrage of messages telling me I was broken and sinful, didn’t leave me feeling gods love, I searched and prayed until I finally realized I was talking to myself whenever I thought I felt gods answer. It’s a broken system that causes a lot of harm. And this is without going into the atrocity’s that institution of the church has done with things like residential schools in Canada. I dunno, stepping away was good for me, but I’ve come to enjoy the conversation around it.
@@lonniestoute8762 it’s those “experiences with Jesus” that never came for me, and family gave me books about faith because they knew I was struggling, I thought about being a Buddhist, but that wasn’t right, I settled on some sort of personal spirituality for a bit, described myself as a pagan for a bit, and in the end I was able to let go of it all once I realized that sin was a crime against a god I didn’t believe in, and so much sin is concerned with not angering god, rather than people, my moral compass was able to shift towards humanism, no longer concerned with doing things for god I’m concerned with people, and I don’t have an imagined being looking at my thoughts as if feeling anger or lust does anything unless you act on it.
@@almostgravy6556
You are correct
The thought dwelt upon long enough bring forth the action, so I've learned to guard my thoughts.
As far as personal experience, well that's something I can't give you.
But to know your are serving humanity in love and peace is pretty awesome.
Peace and good will to all men.
Love of neighbor is pretty much the goal right??
Feed the poor, visit the sick, visit the prisoner, teach those who seek knowledge, seek knowledge ourselves, these simple acts of charity don't seem that difficult to do and all people can do them.
We may experience something way more spiritual in these acts than in any other "religious" devotion or ritual we do or don't do?
I dunno I'm not God..lol
In doing
I remember once hearing that hell is the result of living your life rejecting God, rejecting goodness, rejecting love over and over and over. Saying to God, "No I don't want you. I don't love you. Leave me alone." For your whole life even until death and facing the horror of hearing God say, "Thy will be done." And he lets you go. Hell isn't really a place he sends you, per say, its where you end up because it's the only place where God isn't.
You haven't heard? God is everywhere, as it is one of his 'omni' qualities. It's amazing how people who aren't suppose to lie love to make things up [lie] so that they can feel righteous.
I mean... It's not a real place chief so you don't have to worry about it.
@@sweetpeabrown261 omnipotent in goodness
This video is a clear indicator of an individual who's not questioned their world view and doesn't understand what's wrong with their irrational logic premises.
there's a lot of question begging, fallacious dispositions and logic leaps to try and substantiate what you tend to not realise isn't valid logic.
you can't make claims without proving they're logical to start with.
starting with your conclusion without justifying it and using it as the reason to base your position on is dishonest.
The Great Divorce was incredible, and amazingly timeless. Where I fail (and I'm not sure C.S. Lewis would disagree) is facing the traditional catholic and evangelical view that unbaptized persons who live their lives reaching for good and trying to do good as much as they can, will simply fall into Hell when they die without recourse. On the other hand, when then-Cardinal Ratzinger said that when an informed conscience and Church teaching disagree, one is obligated to follow one's conscience, he may have been agreeing with me himself?
Your description of God as a source of all goodness is easy to understand and makes sense to me. I get how sin is cutting ourselves off from God's goodness, and understand the consequences that go along with that. Those consequences are a type Hell on earth. But what about an eternal Hell? Is that truely a place a for those who die, and are not in a state of grace, are unbelievers, or unrepentant? Why not simply cause those souls to not exist instead of spending eternity in anguish?
This topic is so interesting especially since there are so much references about hell in the Bible
Bishop Barron is doing us no favor by denying hell.
@@carolynkimberly4021 you make a good point, but I think it's because the Church focuses on who may be in heaven such as saints and Blessed but since the Church can not condemn as only God can do that because we can choose to love him or not.
Good sermon, Father.
@@xunqianbaidu6917 I doubt Bishop Barron ever said anything against black people.
@@carolynkimberly4021 */*This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him.
Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven?
Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
This was amazing and exactly what I need to share with a friend I've recently started talking to about religion!! Thank you Casey!!
I pity this friend, because they need to waste their time explaining why this doesnt make sense.
@@Soapy-chan_old .-This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him.
Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven?
Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
I always mean to ask you about *"THE MISSION"* poster in the background. One of two pieces of media (the other being Frank Millers "Born Again" and its touching examination of despair and hope through the Faith and will) that really reinvigorated my Catholic journey a few years ago, after a break from 16 years of K through college Jesuit/Marist education.
DeNiro's mercenary, is his use of violence in protection of the weak the proper example or is it Iron's submission and martyrdom? I always have a rough time on which path is the righteous one although I find DeNiro's invocation of force in the name of the meek to be justified. The Mission truly is a memorable film.
As far as Hell goes, I pray every night for the soul of mankind as a whole. Every person who has lived, from monsters and maniacs to child molesters and my own loathed enemies. I sincerely dont want any soul to spend eternity in torment, it is a burden simply too cruel. I understand man makes his own proverbial bed, but still it doesnt mean I want anyone to endure that.
Great vid as always. I genuinely enjoy the thoughtful content and am thrilled such good young men have the courage and moral fortitude to take up the mantle of the cloth
If you check out Fr Casey’s other channel, Upon Friar Review, he & Fr Pat discuss The Mission in one episode.
Yet, Richard Beebe, the bible clearly talks about everlasting fires of hell.
Remember the parable of the rich & poor man. One ended up in Hades with parched lips & endless thirst, while the other was embraced in Abraham's comfy/loving arms/heaven.
@@GrantQuinn1 thank you Grant. I almost dont want to know as I have my own feelings about the film. "Silence" was another one that I assume has quite a split in theological interpretations
@@MichaelThompson-jq3zf And yet people were able to speak to those in the other place. Not quite how I picture it.
Same question applies to ''how can a loving and caring mother punish her children for doing something bad and treat the good one? '' Applies to ''God'' too, God is a Father and not any Father, no one can stand evil or wicked behaviours! when a child behaves badly, the mother will chastise him/her. God was kind enough not to drown the Earth altogether. Wicked and evil people especially those who use magic to hurt or gain something go to hell and it is not about punishment but rather ''rejection'' of God sends evil people there. When a child does something bad, he/ she will ask for forgiveness from the mother and feel bad, same way a Gods child does the same so God is not just a God but He is also RIGHTEOUS , evil and bad people cannot go around breaking Gods rules ! If God says ''do not eat the apple'' then don't eat the apple! If God says ''don't do black magic, it is a offence then don't do it'' dirt is always dirt and dirt is sin, hell is made for evil that did not confess, repent or ask for forgiveness. Hurting people too for no reason! causing them unnecessary pain! HELL IS REAL GET USED TO IT ! we hear screams! pain! torture! torment! why? Because, they did that to good people on Earth! And, I have no mercy! evil never changes, if I was in hell and worked for God I would say ''STAND THE F UP'' Christ did not get whiplashed on His back for no reason!!!! People need to understand GOD IS PURE AND U CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN WITH A DIRTY HEART and the worst sin of all THINKING ONE IS GOD OR BEING GOD WITH SUPERNATURAL POWERS
The question is not about eternal punishment but eternal torture. If you research visions of hell even from saints they describe incredible suffering and torture. Therefore the question is how can you reconcile a merciful, all loving God with eternal torture?
You reconcile it with the truth, that hell doesn't exist. The Bible teaches destruction is the punishment.
2 Thessalonians 1:9- "These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction"
2 Peter 2:12 "But these men, like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed"
2 Peter 2:9 "to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment"
do you have full agency over your decision to reject god if you have no knowledge of him. how can you have a real choice if one of the options remains hidden to you.
That's a clever analogy: God as a power plant. It does help to reconcile the difficult question of why a loving God would send anyone to Hell. Thank you for featuring this very difficult topic, Father Casey.
@@Roman-Labrador He doesn't. People are free to choose their own path. People have a lifetime to make choices, talk, listen, and act. Those that die too young or who were somehow unable to hear about Christ? Their souls are more likely in purgatory needing the prayers of others to help them along.
@@Roman-Labrador The Church teaches 'baptism of desire' for good people who have never heard of Christ. Baptism of desire is also held to occur to those who die in the Catechumenate.
@@Roman-Labrador I'd imagine that it could be accomplished in the same way someone in the Catechumenate does if they die prior to baptism. If a baby dies prior to receiving baptism, but the parents had every intention to baptize the baby, then it is through the parent's faith and desire for the child's baptism that God applies to them a baptism of desire.
@YAJUN YUAN He gives it to everyone, evil or otherwise. Our volitional acts, and beliefs by which we discipline our own lives, determine WHERE that eternity is to be experienced. As Father explained. God honors the desires in our hearts, for Him or against Him. Either way, God provides.
The only problem with the analogy is, a power plant is an industry manufactured by multiple people who do work that is limited and necessary. A god isn't bound by any of this.
The best book I have read about this topic is David Bentley Hart's _That All Shall Be Saved._ That book is usually criticised by people who have not read it. I very rarely see informed counter-arguments to it.
Because there is none. Universal salvation is the only true gospel
I am a huge fan of DBH and his books! Both “that all shall be saved” and “You are Gods” in which he also talks about perennial tradition
These debates have been going on for 2000 years now.
I'd like to shed more light on it. People are lead to conclusion that Heaven is for good people and Hell for bad and use that as an argument that God doesn't love unconditionally. That's fallacy that comes from poor understanding of God's will.
In reality, Heaven is a place for people who want to be in the presence of God. People who seek Him and His goodness. And like every homeowner, he has couple of rules to follow if you wish to be with Him in His home.
As for Hell, that is a place without God. God loves us so much to give us a choice to be with Him, or not be with him. Hell is absence of God. Now if there are creatures in Hell who are more powerful than us and they want to hurt us, well that's a different thing. Those creatures also have free will like we do and can choose either to hurt us or not to.
If God made creation without free will, he's a tyrant who wants blind obedience. If he makes creation with free will, he is still a tyrant who allows bad things to happen despite humanity choosing it. That's not a problem with God, but people.
well, maybe there are these two fraction, those who want to be with god ( must be christian) and those who reject god altogether. But I bet there are myriads of people that are in between, good, caring, social, encouraged people, also with their daily faults, who just dont want to put their lives in religion. Is it really righteous to put these all in hell?
@@ast3663 Let me ask you then, how can you have good in absence of good?
Lastly, people are given a choice.
When God gives a choice, he's evil. If he wouldn't give choice, he'd still be evil. That's not a problem with God, but with humanity.
You can rewrite Roman Catholic teaching of the last 2,000 years if you want, but this is not what the Church has taught. You must begin with Original Sin. That is not a choice, you are born with it.
a more realistic answer would be this. in ancient days we had no meaningful way to prevent crimes like surveillance or solve them like detectives do. the only way we knew how to preven people from commiting crimes was to threaten them with grotesque torture as punishment. this is why we see people being executed in the most diabolical ways you can imagine in the ancient days. the religious scholars figured they could this same approach to prevent people from sinning, by telling them they'll be tortured for eternity if they don't behave right.
Thank you Fr. Casey! Keep up the incredible work!
If there were any chance of eternal Hell, then we would all be better off not having been born.
I get yeah, because Yahushua say, it's a narrow gate. It not easy people make it out to be.
This is something I’ve pondered about for a very long time. For the argument of Hell being eternal separation from God as a result of rejecting Him, then I think it calls into question how awful Hell is. It’s tricky due to the verses about it being a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth and burning, but perhaps it was to illustrate how horrible existence is without God.
To me, this is important because it demonstrates the idea of Hell being “passive” not only due to it being someone’s decision to reject Him, but also how Hell is not a punishment, but rather the consequence of that choice.
Essentially, Hell would be how life after the Fall WOULD have been without God being involved in it
Psalm 1:6
For YHVH knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish.
The Hebrew word is ( תֹּאבֵֽד tō·ḇêḏ )
Which mean to be annihilated, destroy or as its translated perish.
This is the punishment of sin ers accordingly.
Now what happens to the soul ?
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to ( destroy-ἀπόλλυμι ) both soul and body in ( γεέννῃ.
Gehenna )
the Greek word ἀπόλλυμι apollumi means the same as the Hebrew תֹּאבֵֽד tō·ḇêḏ : meaning to put an end destruction or perish. The Scriptures does not teach that the entenal punishment is a everlasting torment in hell, a eternal life in hell would contradict the vary beginning, where God told Adam and his wife, if they eat from the tree of knowledge, they would die !
Now if are punishment is indeed death then how does one have life in a everlasting place of punishment! This never made sense to me. Just think about it.
@@DeFyYing */*This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him.
Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven?
Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
Free will in heaven- Yes. But the will and the choice and ability to always do the right thing, as in His presence, only the good can exist. The freedom to choose the good. ✡️✝️🇨🇦
4:28 you have to contend that the only way you can deal with someone who doesn’t love you is eternal conscious torment. Good luck.
5:17 you have to contend that non christians are necessarily and always full of deformed negative attributes. Have fun.
6:05 you (and Lewis) have to contend that 1) creatures suffering eternal conscious torment will always, always, _choose_ to continue receiving it, and will in 100% of cases not ask to be allowed to have it either cease or be allowed into paradise. And 2) that it is moral to make humans’ one chance to decide to believe in God X be made in ignorance before god makes himself unambiguously known to them. That will only happen when it’s too late and they are already sent to hell. You have your work cut out for you.
But at least you’re not perpetuating any stereotypes of self-righteous xenophobic Christians.
Look, it's one thing to say that rejecting God and him cutting you off is being like cut off from the electric company, fair enough, but hellfire as it's traditionally taught is God being pro-active in post-life human suffering. That would be like the electric company not only cutting you off (restoring you to the neutral non-existent state you were in before your electric was ever turned on), but it would be the electric company coming down to where you live and torching your house to the ground, and every time you rebuilt it, they torch it again and again and again. The line of reasoning in the video is a red herring Fallacy.
Absence of Goodness isn't the same thing as Evil. Good and Evil are two pro-active things. Absence of either just leaves you in a neutral state in the middle, maintaining a present status quo where there is the potential for either to occur, but until you actually take steps to act in one way or the other, that potential isn't yet realised. Think Cain and Abel, Cain wasn't evil because he was absent of Good, he was evil because his works were wicked and he killed his brother.
I understand the attempts by some well meaning people in mainstream Christianity to water down the hellfire teaching into a "Oh no it's just a metaphorical state of being absent from God", but honestly there are better ways to dealing with this subject, like for starters looking up every single reference to what's in English translated "Hell" in the Hebrew and Greek texts, contextualising and categorising.
Excellent observation. It sounds like you understand that hell is a mistranslation too.
May I ask what you believe?
@@Pj-fm7oe Without caring for this leading to an argument/ debate with you or anyone reading this, I think the following points are clear:
Jacob and Job both expected to go to Sheol (Genesis 37:35, Job 14:13, 17:13) all humans go there (Psalm 89:48). In Acts 2:27 Peter quotes Psalm 16:10 but uses "Hades", showing Greek Hades is equivalent to Hebrew Sheol. Revelation 20:13 & 14 show this place will be emptied one day, therefore a place from which resurrection is possible.
Psalm 6:5's mention of Sheol nicely parallels the thoughts in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, Sheol and death being a state of no conscious activity. This is why Jesus likened death to sleep (Matthew 9:24) and why Paul likened it to sleep (1 Thessalonians 4:13,14). Sheol typically had the thought of being underground (Numbers 16:30, Isaiah 14:9) so it would appear to refer to the state of ones burial or being consumed by the ground after death (decomposition), much like what God said would happen to Adam ("dust you are, dust you will return"). None of the 66 references to Sheol or 10 to Hades lay out a concept of a fiery place of eternal torment. In fact "Hades" itself is symbolically thrown into the symbolic lake of fire in Revelation 20.
Next, we have the Hebrew "gehhinnom" Greek "Gehenna" meaning "Valley of Hinnom", a place where some of the unfaithful Kings made their children pass through the fire as part of human sacrifice offerings (2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6) altho King Josiah stopped this from happening at the site (2 Kings 23:10). A later Jewish commentator said the place became a place of continual fire never put out used for the disposal of criminal bodies and unclean things. Therefore, since these things were not naturally consumed by the ground (Sheol), it became a place known for quick and total destruction (Gehenna), which at a time when burial mattered, anyone whose corpse was sent there to be disposed of had negative connotations attached to them. Naturally then this word became suitable for symbolising total and complete destruction in many new testament passages (Matthew 10:28. This symbolism then serves as the backbone for the symbolic "lake of fire" in Revelation, which symbolised the "second death" (Revelation 20:14), and since Sheol itself is cast into this place (a state from which resurrection is possible) then it stands to reason that Gehenna, the lake of fire would symbolise a place from which a resurrection is NOT possible.
Finally, the final outlying piece of data is Jesus parable at Luke 16:19-31. Everybody always quotes this passage out of context. The parable is directed at the Pharisees (see verse 14,15) comparing them with people like the tax collectors they were so eager to judge and condemn in the previous chapter. During the time that the Pharisees were the dominating force in Israel, the Pharisees enjoyed good things like the rich man, whereas the people they should have been spiritually helping (the beggar Lazarus), the tax collectors and sinners, had injurious things. This "death" that they suffered is symbolic of the change in state. While being formerly the top of the social hierarchy, in the Christian system, they would be at the bottom whereas the sinners would end up in the place of flavor (the bosom position) which the Pharisees were tormented by. This symbolic use of death is also seen in Romans 6 & 7, whereby Paul explains:
_"Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life"_ ...
_"Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him."_ ...
_"Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus."_ ...
Indeed, when these sinners were coming to know Jesus and repenting, it was putting their religious leaders into a position of condemnation, since it showed that these people could indeed be helped, and that their abusive way of dealing with such ones was part of the problem, not the solution. The Pharisees were in anguish under the Christian system, since it exposed them. He was showing that the current status quo that they enjoyed was about the change.
The parable has nothing to do with establishing concepts about the afterlife, (and with it appearing in the new testament, it's quite late in the game to be establishing that concept there,) but has everything to do with comparing the Pharisees to the sinners they failed to help.
Summary:
• Death is an unconscious sleep-like state
• Sheol/ Hades refers to the ground where people are buried and/ or decompose, spoken of in poetic terms, a place from which resurrection is possible.
•Gehhinom/Gehenna/ The Lake of fire is euphemistic language for total destruction with no hope of a resurrection. This second death is permenant.
• Luke 16 is a parable aimed at the Pharisees.
Yet nowhere do we find a passage laying down a concept of an eternal torture place as described by many denominations. Hope all that makes sense.
@@isaacmarshmallow8751
I'm sorry brother I hope you didn't spend too much time to write this just for me. We believe the same thing (assuming you are a Witness, which I'm pretty sure you are). This is very well stated BTW I might use some of it myself if you don't mind. I've made these same points too many times to count but I love how you put it all together. I would change my mind if I read this and didn't know already.
Do you get a lot of argument? I know personally I find it difficult not to argue with some. I'm sarcastic by nature so I have to fight that constantly.
@@Pj-fm7oe Don't worry I had a feeling you were 😉 it was for any others that stumble across this comment tbh. Also I know understand better how the idea of Sheol naturally sprung from the words aimed at Adam (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20), much the same way that Gehhinnoms usage was a natural bi-product of the fiery waste disposal place (besides Sodom and Gomorrah too as per Jude 7) that so it wasn't a waste of time.
And yes, too many times (especially over the Trinity, which is founded on circular reasoning), but not once has a debate or argument ever changed anyone's mind in my recollection. Whenever you have a "my view Vs your view" outset to any discussion, people only become further steeped in their own views (this because you activate each others primal fight/ flight responses whenever someone feels their core beliefs are being attacked). The only thing I've ever changed someone's mind on in an Argument was whether Rey is a Mary Sue in Star Wars (she's not) 😂 for this reason I try to avoid them, it's like running on a treadmill, you exert alot of stress and energy but get nowhere.
The only way to change anyone's views is for you both to build on common ground together, acknowledge neither of you is "all knowing" and for you to both have the common goal of reaching the bottom of a matter. Truth seeking, not stance defending. You have to be willing to change your own views if they are wrong, and know that if your beliefs are established solidly then they will still be standing after scrutiny (Titus 2:8). You have to be willing to recognise each others points of merit, and let those points inform/ sharpen/ improve your own point of view and yours hopefully theirs. Once all the facts have been established, hopefully you both come to the same conclusion on a matter.
@@isaacmarshmallow8751
All good points, I know that I have had much more success in asking good questions in tandem with genuine compliments than as you put it, stance defense. I do think that others read these discussions so sometimes I will post just to show others the truth and hopefully they will show interest later or visit the website. You never know when something you say affects someone or if they will remember it later or think about it and have questions.
I think that world view challenge fight or flight response you mentioned is called cognitive dissonance. And yes I see it constantly too, you can tell they are just too attached to what they grew up with. They will read a plain scripture and flip it to mean the opposite of what it says.
I'm glad to know you but in order to avoid arguments I think that means the two of us should not discuss star wars lol. I watched those and came away quite a different opinion. Discussing movies is a passion of mine.
Just because you choose not to live with or in the way your parents want you to live during your life, does that mean you can never live or be with them again? A child that storms out of a house can never return? The real problem with hell is the never ending aspect of it as a result of decisions made during some finite time interval. It's the permanence of hell that makes it cruel. Jesus taught that the father unreservedly and unconditionally welcomed the prodigal son who returned after he realized the error of his ways. From Jesus' own parable we are given the impression that the father never had a time limit after which the son would not be welcomed back. Your power plant analogy wouldn't fail if it didn't have a time limit after which you could no longer plug into it. Again, it's the eternal aspect of hell that makes it cruel and inconsistent with a loving God whom Jesus told us to consider as a (and refer to as) father. You didn't address that at all. (And if most of us are not in favor of eternally shutting out those who once ignored us, wouldn't that make the average human being more forgiving than God?) You don't have to be an atheist to see this as problematic. The usual response from the Church to such paradoxes is to say that it's a "mystery." If that's the case, then we really don't have an answer.
This is the first contradiction in the Christian theology I found (I was around 11-12 years old back then) and it started my journey out of Christianity and into atheism. On one hand you have God - the embodiment of love, on the other you have eternal punishment for finite sins (and to be clear - if you can't get out of Hell, even if you wanted to, it is a punishment). For 30 years the only answer I found to this conundrum was that after death you still get to choose if you want to live with God or without, after being provided with sufficient knowledge to make the choice. But this is not consistent with the doctrine, I suppose.
Exactly the reason I am Christian universalist. Eternity of hell hasn’t ever really made sense to me
@@allegoria07 One workaround I've come across is that the translation of "eternal" from the original Greek text is more along of the lines of "eon" which is not strictly eternal. it opens the door for something less than eternal, but that is not the current understanding, what is taught, or doctrine.
@@piotr.ziolo. One workaround I've come across is that the translation of "eternal" from the original Greek text is more along of the lines of "eon" which is not strictly eternal. it opens the door for something less than eternal, but that is not the current understanding, what is taught, or doctrine.
Excellent explanation. May God continue to inspire you.
.,..This is a really bad apologetics video, it doesn't answer why God creates people that God knows will reject him.
Is he forced to create all humans even the ones that go to hell. if not why not create only those who go to heaven?
Free will is not a solution because in heaven we will have free will and there will be no sin please help.
I think one of most important parts of Catholicism is the forgiveness of sin. We may try hard to do good, be good, but we are human. My dad was a devout Catholic but lost his faith after my mom died. As he was dying, he got very agitated. I heard him whispering the Act of Contrition, so I called the parish priest. He came immediately, gave my dad the last rites, heard his confession and gave him communion. When he left, my dad was at peace. He died the next day, listening to the Brandenberg Concertos. His last words were “so beautiful”. Not a bad way to go.
@@Angelica-lo5qs Of all the things I disagree with Protestants, the ones I disagree with most are predestination and justification by faith alone. If our salvation is determined at birth, what is the point? Why bother trying to lead a good life? As for justification by faith alone, it’s ridiculous. Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 22:37-39 that to enter the kingdom, we must love God with our whole hearts souls and minds and we must love our neighbor as ourselves. He made both requirements equal.. Matthew 25:35-40 says to feed the hungry, comfort the sick, shelter the stranger, and clothe the naked. If that’s not good works, what is?
@@Angelica-lo5qs John’s gospel was written around 100 CE. John never knew Jesus, never met anyone who had known Jesus. It was probably written at Patmos or at Antioch, well away from Jerusalem. His is the only gospel with the famous “I am” statements. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus always referred to Himself as Huios ho tou anthropou or the son of man. John also transferred all blame for the crucifixion from the Romans to the Jews whom he referred to as “ children of Satan”. Jews did not crucify living people. It was against their religion. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment reserved for sedition and rebellious slaves. John also portrayed Pilate as a weak but kindly man who wanted to release Jesus but was prevented from doing so by the vile Jews. This is garbage. Pilate crucified thousands of Jews without trial. It was so bad that in 36CE the Jewish leadership petitioned the governor of Syria for help. He came to Jerusalem, fired Pilate, and sent him back to Rome. For 2000 years, Christians have slaughtered Jews screaming, “ you killed Christ”. John has a Hell of a lot to answer for.
Here is how I work through this,
God is:
Eternal
All-knowing
All-present
All-loving
Yet there is an Eternal and Divine judgment?
God would know the whole span of time from beginning to end even before creation itself.
God would know everything about you, who you are, what you would become, and all other people as well and how everyone would interact with each other from before time to the end of time.
God would also be present during all of these events.
Now, all those don't necessarily conflict, God would be completely capable of having an Eternal, and All-knowing, All-present, and All-loving nature etc. What does conflict however is the All-loving nature sitting beside a supposed Eternal Judgment.
All-loving implies an infinite capacity for compassion, mercy, forgiveness, understanding, and affection; whereas eternal Judgment implies an inconsistent rupture in that previous capacity of eternal, infinite, and uncompromising love. No transgression we as humans might make against each other or to ourselves would ever be beyond the capacity of an immortal and infinite being to forgive, not even a loss of faith in or denial of that Deity. The analogy of the "powerplant" is nice, and I hold some sympathy with it, however a powerplant doesn't cut anyone off on its own, the power company does. So if God is the powerplant, then who is the shadowy committee of gatekeepers cutting people off from the power if they don't pay up?
Though beings of immortal spirits, that spirit lives through a limited mortal vessel, our spirits filter through it, and like all filters and sieves many things are lost in that process. If our infinite capacities accompanied our mortal embodiment then the problems we face with each other and towards each other would likely not occur, but they do; so our manifold immortal capacities it can be rightly observed are largely lost at birth and so we are as limited as the flesh which encases us.
As such we are born and are completely dependent on others to raise us through our growth and early life, as St. Augustine says we are born amidst p**s and s**t. Now, those who raise us might be pleasant but they might also be cruel, they might be neighborly and fraternal but they might also be viscous and solitary; all of which would have an impact. None at birth are vile or corrupted. Humans are part of a vast web of known and unknow influences between each other, things that are obvious and things hidden; We live our lives on the stage set by our ancestors.
Those whom we all would consider the worst sort of evil incarnate who committed some of the most gut wrenching acts imaginable, would have been impossible to exist as they were or do so if only history worked differently before them. If only that evil ideology which surrounded them throughout life had not be devised by someone then dead a century or if only their ancestors had taken to further shores and they been born in another country unaffected.
Even if fate had fordained that such would be the case. That they should be born in that place and raised by that family and surrounded by that malice, then it would be the divine design and beyond their place to resist, and so Never their crime anyway! Thus nullifying their earthly evils and supplanting any divine judgment as their life was not their own alone to live for themselves, but for a future path for the world that God had intended and through them and their ancestors would craft and fashion.
What of those too who also are physically impaired, not on the surface, but deep within? Those whose bodies, hearts, and minds are unfinished yet even after birth? The vessel is broken and so too would be the filter of the spirit, thus an act they might commit is literally, physically, and completely beyond their potential and capacity to not do; and many in strong prisons already have done. It is not mere lack of moderation or inability to resist any temptation that afflicts them, but the opposite, to them such things are as natural as the taking of breath, as walking, as the beating of the heart. Unintentional and bodily habitual. The fault resting with the vessel and not the spirit, thus not a thing they could be judged for.
God, to my philosophy, is not incapable of judgment, but rather is not a God of Judgment.
We are so limited in body that any possible Earthly transgression committed by any person would never be worth an eternal judgment to adjudicate, no matter the case and no matter the person, living or dead.
This is hate, not love. Jesus said he came to save humanity, not the chosen people who happen to have the right circumstances and mental states to receive the gospel.
This vídeo answers purgatory, answers suffering in earth.
But not eternal damnation.
Suffering by all eternity is not correction, because there in no out from hell, not second chance afterlife
Damnation is not for correction, true, it is for punishment. God responds to the wicked’s actions by casting them away from himself into hell.
@@sneakysnake2330 Then where did the love go then? Why eternal suffering and not just erasing? Why torture souls forever if there si even love for them?
I'm not an atheist but this hardly makes sense.
I think it makes ir if people have a vacuous pleasure in hell in existential void and anxious inbetweens because they can't bear the joy of heaven.
But not God torturing for punishment sake
@@Roman-Labrador those who choose sin and evil choose to reject God. In those actions they choose to be apart from God. If one continues like this, then God in a sense grants them their wish. They will be forever away from God just as they wanted in life.
Speaking as an atheist, I would say that this was a lot better than Robert Baron's attempt to explain Hell.
Bishop Robert Barron is the reason why Fulton Sean isn't a Saint
@@georgesmith364 could you explain that please?
Bishop Robert Baron is a spin doctor.
People "choose" to go to Hell? Got it. So if someone says "Give me all your money or I'll kill you" they shouldn't be charged with a crime for murdering people. It's the people who refuse to give their money who are to blame. LOL, and you said "It doesn't take mental gymnastics." Oops!
Your analogy is flawed, God, out of his love gives the freedom to choose
@@prylonestrocio "Obey me or I throw you into a bottomless pit"
So much for freedom to choose.
You make things so simplistic and black and white. If God is pure Goodness and Love, and our Father, then what does a loving father do? He seeks his children no matter where they make their bed because only God knows why someone has turned away or what someone is going through. God follows us. Not forces us. But continues to be with us and find us and reach out to us. We are never cut off from His love. To say that you don't want it so you wont get it because God will take it back is making God immature, small, petty, and unloving. Grace finds us at times when we didn't want it or weren't looking for it. That's why it's grace. My atheist neighbor might not believe in God or be bitter and angry because they lost a child or were abused or experienced some sort of horrific trauma. I don't know. But God does and God will bless that person and help that person and be with that person. Bidden or unbidden, God is there. You make God out to be so transactional and tit for tat.
that point leads me to ask, he's the source of all goodness, but he's also the source of all evil because he created it all, including the very evil that is in his creation. He created a system by design where countless sentient conscious beings are doomed to inevitable damnation.
It's like me rigging random houses with dynamite and giving a neighborhood away with the warning that some day I'll blow them up. Some people will die but the rest will get free houses. then building a wall around the neighborhood and saying if you leave I'll also shoot you. am I good for creating this system?
That depends. Are you the God of Abraham? If so yes. Otherwise, obviously not, you monstrous psychopath. Didn’t you know? That’s how moral objectivism works, silly.