Trent Horn - Why is the punishment of Hell eternal?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ย. 2015
- www.catholic.com
Trent Horn offers some possible reasons why hell is eternal for those who reject God and die in a state of mortal sin.
After his conversion to the Catholic faith, Trent Horn pursued an undergraduate degree in history from Arizona State University. He then earned a graduate degree in theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville and is currently pursuing a graduate degree in philosophy from Holy Apostles College.
Trent is a regular guest on the radio program Catholic Answers Live, a lecturer who speaks across the country on issues related to the Catholic faith, and the author of two books, Answering Atheism and Persuasive Pro-life, both of which are published by Catholic Answers Press.
If you are interested in booking Trent Horn for an upcoming event, please contact Catholic Answers at (619) 387-7200 or fill out this booking information form.
I LOVE CATHOLIC ANSWERS.
No answer is ever fully satisfying or sufficient on this topic. I believe it by faith but that doesn’t fill out all the dimensions to this question.
That was a great answer to a great (and perplexing) question.
This is one of the main reasons i can't come to faith. Still one of the best answers i've ever heard and you were not arrogant. Thanks.
I have a follow up question re: your youtube video on Why is the punishment of Hell eternal? If punishment in hell is eternal, why did Christ only suffer for so many hours on the cross then He said, "It is finished". His suffering on the cross was not eternal?
Also, aion in greek does not necessarily mean eternal. Aion literally means "age enduring," or "age to age", or "this world or the one to come," etc. Thank you for your ministry.
Eugene Sokol how I understand Christ saying "it is finished" refers to completing the Passover that He began in the upper room with His disciples. He began and only completed the ceremony by sharing 3 cups and leaving after they had sung a hymn. Jesus says He will not drink of the fruit until He is in his kingdom. At the Mount of Olives Christ prays to have the cup removed three times, but it be God's will. After being priest and sacrifice, Christ completes the Passover meal by drinking the wine on the cross of His death. Again, that's how I understand Jesus' saying "it is finished".
Think it was Catherine of Siena who asked a simila question of god and God's response was that Hell would cease to exist when Satan apologized to God.
Is this true? Where did you read about it? Please share. I do hope satan apologizes.
logically i think it's because in the afterlife, time as we know it stops, so when we make our choice and die with that choice on our hearts, the choice necessarily gets locked in, since we need the flow of time in order to make a choice.
Secondly, it seems God only gives us one ultimate chance to chose simply out of necessity. There's really no need to give us multiple chances after life to chose for or against him.
I would add that God gives us COUNTLESS chances in this life. If you continue to reject him, time and time and time again. You are given chances every moment of your entire life. This life is when we are given chances that will determine our eternal destination so we need to take to heart, the choices we make.
+Bill O'Brien
So you believe that for making finite mistakes we should be punished infinitely?
+Atheist Lehman you're in hell because you want to be in hell. He'll isn't really a punishment. It's a rejection of God, so God says, "ok, if you don't want to be with me, then you don't have to. You can go to hell!" 😜
Katrina Rhoda Diaz
So the only difference between heaven and hell is that in hell I don't have to be around God? If so, how do you know this?
Atheist Lehman Yes, that's the difference, but don't take it lightly. There is a huge HUGE difference between having a million dollars and having 0 dollars, likewise there is a HUGE difference between having a light in the room and complete darkness.
I know this because God told me so.
I'm not going to argue with you nor am I going to teach you. Sometimes atheists like to encourage Catholics to explain their faith just because they want to engage them in argument, then feel good when the Catholic is unable to convince them.
If you want to know more about the Catholic faith, there are free copies of the Catechism online. If you want apologetics, keep watching videos like this.
+Atheist Lehman
What is a finite mistake? Are you referring to the length of time it takes to do a wrong? Surely that is not the significant factor in determining the blameworthiness of an action, right?
Another answer to give is to mention that humility procedes from God graces which are rejected at all time from dawmned souls thus eternally deprived of these graces that would enable them to truly regret their decision and have a change of heart
This is a Trust issue about God. If we think that eternal hell for our life choices here on Earth is unfair; then it reflects our understanding of the Mercy and Justice of God as being unfair. To reject the notion of an eternal hell; or seeing it as unfair is tantamount to saying that God is not Just and Fair; or He is lacking in Mercy. If our thinking leads us this way then we should realize we are allowing our intellect to go down the wrong path and we should seek the Grace for clearer understanding.
Mr 39Knights, no matter how much we humans would love the theory of eternal hell to be true, we seem not to realize on the other hand that this theory makes God evil at the same time. We cannot say God is loving, but evil at the same time. God cannot ask us to forgive others seventy times seven in a day, but Himself denying to forgive us. Moreover, there is nothing like eternal punishment. As wicked as we are, yet we cannot offer a snake for a loft of bread to our children, no matter how evil they may be, but yet we think God can do that; none of us can punish his child with a punishment that will last his entire existence, but yet we believe God can do that. Are we better than God? Even if you read it in a book, when you know the heart of Father, you will know that what you read is is not depicting the true nature of God. Punishment is to correct and rebuke a wrong doing, with the hope to bring back the good characters of the offender. Punishment is never intended to be forever. Then the term punishment should be changed for something else. Why not just destroy the sinful souls rather than keeping then in perpetual torments? Would not that be a better suggestion?
Nguema Jones This comes from an understanding of hell as something God imposes on an unwilling soul. I have children and I can see your point but I believe it misses the point I tried to make. I have also seen in my children two types of 'sorry'. There is the one of realizing the wrong that has been done followed by a true change. And then there is the sorry because I was caught; and once the parents eyes are turned they are right back at it. Catholic understanding is it is the soul which has decided it wants to be seperated from God for eternity so it can continue in its sin that will remove itself from the eternal presence of God. Many exorcists will tell you that demons have revealed that they would rather exist in hell than be with God or not exist at all. There are many points in which your argument fails. First you equate the existence of a hell with an evil God. That is a failure in logic. Secondly Jesus spoke more of the reality of hell and the possibility of going there than about heaven; so either He was lieing or perhaps you are wrong. Your way of thinking also imposes a doctrine of Universal Salvation; which not only the Church has rejected; but when followed to its natural conclusion is more abhorrent than there being a hell.
Can you guys do a video on orthodoxy? Or was it already done?
2:00 sounds very CS Lewis-esque.
Amen, he gets it, it is about insult. I wrote an article about this 15 years ago that went on 4marks
there's some people who really don't want to be with GOD. it's very sad and they hate to hear about GOD. God let's us choose to be with him or not. u have to be very evil and unrepentant to GOD to go to hell. we must also remember that we will ALL know people's thoughts, everything they whispered in secret etc will be revealed. so u can understand even further. we can go to catholic church confession and ask GOD to forgive us. pray a lot and serve GOD so God can crown u with life.
Suppose that you are engaged to a woman, and you cheat on her. Would it be reasonable for her to call off the wedding, and never marry you for all eternity? Hence, it is reasonable for God to cast you out of the wedding feast of heaven for eternity. That doesn't mean God cannot forgive you, but it is perfectly within the realm of reason for God to not do so.
It's so sad to hear you say you aren't assured of your salvation. It was a hard road for me to learn that Christ knew every sin and forgave them all, past, present and future when He saved me, revealing Himself and making me new. The sin is thinking His grace is not sufficient, or that it does not much more abound than my sin. Undoubtedly there are many who would take license to sin if they were convinced of this without His true revelation, but in truly embracing His gift of wisdom I have come to fully recognize that His grace is enough and is already complete and comprehensive over all my sins. When I sin now, instead of putting myself in timeout or assuming it's hypocritical to turn immediately towards Him but so I feel I must give myself a few days to feel bad about it in timeout, I now immediately thank Him for His abundant grace and stand up, move forward and pray. There is no state other than grace once Christ's blood has been counted in my favor. From that moment on, He is sufficient and more.
I don't think the Disneyland analogy goes far enough, make the grounding 2 days and the Disneyland trip a thousand times longer then the kid could learn a few valuable in those two days and have the time to be truly sorry before entering Disneyland with that offence behind him. This is a picture of purgatory but for Hell I see this not in terms of lengths of time to make a counter argument but the severity of the punishment instead. You can start to see when the line gets drawn, punch your brother in the face before Disneyland, maybe you might have a bit of a time out, but what if the kid murdered his brother instead or shot himself in the head. There are actions he could take to completely stop himself from ever going to Disneyland. The Penalty goes up with the Crime and when you go against and reject an infinitely good and loving God the crime is infinitely huge. The punishment has to be infinite. A good reformulation of the kid-Disneyland example wouldn't be a 5 second time out but a 0 second time-out. A 1000 years in hell would be nothing and I mean the same as 0 compared to infinity which is the sentence for an infinite crime.
The Bible does not teach we have immortal souls. Don't listen to men, just read your Bible. Here's some verses that teaches us what really happens to people in Hell based on sinners in the hands of a loving God:
ECCLESIASTES 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know NOTHING; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
JB'S NOTES: Here in Ecclesiastes it states the dead know NOTHING. I suppose that covers any pain from burning fire too. "Nothing" is a big word.
ECCLESIASTES 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
ISAIAH Chapter 26:11 O Lord, your hand is lifted high, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame; let the FIRE reserved for your enemies CONSUME them.
ISAIAH Chapter 26:14 they are now dead, they live no more; those departed spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to RUIN; you wiped out all memory of them.
ISAIAH Chapter 29:20 The ruthless will VANISH, the mockers will DISAPPEAR, and all who have an eye for evil will be cut down.
ISAIAH Chapter 33:14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the CONSUMING Fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?
JB's NOTE: The answer here is nobody can, that's the point of fire, it consumes until there is nothing left. It's a rhetorical question reader.
ISAIAH Chapter 40:6-8 A voice says, "Cry out." And I said, "What shall I cry?" "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field. The grass withers and flowers fall, because the breath of the Lord blows on them. Surely the people are grass. The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."
JB's NOTES: Again, the Lord Himself sees us like flowers and grass, we wither away, and we fall away into nothing. But God's word is stating that you can count on His word to be true and will stand up under anything. God is really informing us what we are, and what will happen to us if we don't know His Son Jesus, we will wither and fall. It is not the soul that is eternal, but the Word of GOD this IS eternal.
JEREMIAH 51:39 But while they are aroused, I will set out a feast for them and make them drunk, so that they shout with laughter - then SLEEP FOREVER and not awake, declares the Lord.
JEREMIAH 51:57 I will make her officials and wise men drunk, her governors, officers and warriors as well; they will SLEEP FOREVER and not awake, declares the King, whose name is the LORD ALMIGHTY.
EZEKIEL 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son - both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will DIE.
JB’s NOTES: Is death somehow eternal life? This verse states the soul belongs to God, and God states that the soul that sins will die. Apparently the soul is not eternal.
EZEKIEL 18:20 The SOUL who sins is the one who will DIE. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
JB’s NOTES: Looks like the soul dies, and is NOT alive. Where does this stupid idea of the soul being eternal come from? Oh that's right....The Serpent suggested it back in the garden of Eden.
EZEKIEL 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? Declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
EZEKIEL 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
EZEKIEL 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take NO PLEASURE in the DEATH of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and LIVE. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
JB’s NOTES: These verses in Ezekiel show more of God’s character. Clearly he does not enjoy putting anyone to death. How much more would he take no pleasure in people’s eternal torment? Hello, anybody home?
MATTHEW 10:28 Jesus himself said "do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell.
JB's NOTES: Is Jesus telling us the reality of the soul here? That the soul can be destroyed by the ONE in heaven? Really think about this statement in MATT 10:28. Read it again and again and again.
LUKE 13:3 Jesus himself said "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all PERISH.
LUKE 13:5 Jesus states again "but unless you repent, you too will ALL PERISH."
JB'S NOTE: Keep in mind that these verses where NOT PARABLES, but straight talk to those around him. Jesus was being frank with them all, about this by NOT speaking in parables in Matt 10:28, Luke 13:3-5 about this topic.
It's only when we read Jesus' parables that we allow ourselves to be confused and think there is an eternal tormenting lake of fire, that's why it says in those very verses (the parable ones) that he talked to them in parables to make the reader understand the difference.
ROMANS 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also PERISH apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
ROMANS 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
JB’s NOTES: Question: where would you get eternal life if you reject the GIFT of eternal life? Hell is for people who rejected his GIFT of eternal life. So how is it that they are staying alive all eternity in hell without Jesus? Where are they getting this eternal Life from? Are we asking people to believe that Death means eternal life?
1 CORINTHIANS 15:26 The last enemy to be DESTROYED is DEATH!!
JB's NOTES: Heck even the grim reaper gets to rest someday, He's DESTROYED! Have you looked up the word "destroyed" in Webster's lately, or seen what it means in God holy word?
2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-10 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power. On the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes YOU, because you BELIEVED our testimony to you.
Put another way, if a man says to his wife, i would rather have my tv and football channel, than have you. Football channels are finite in worth, but a woman is immeasurable in worth, called to give and receive love forever and ever with God and others. So his insult is immeasurable, saying that a mere finitie entertatinment is greater than a priceless creature. So if she is called to give and receive love forever, so he must suffer agony forever. And since he has a infinite debt, only infinite suffering can make up for it. God suffered on the cross, so the suffering was infinite.
Our souls are immortal? That was a lie. Can someone please show that in the Bible or is he just making stuff up
*Hitchens voice*
This. Stuff. Is. Man. Made.