Postmillennialism - Douglas Wilson | Reformed Basics #3
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ต.ค. 2024
- The Scriptures contain many prophecies, and so one of the most important things we can do as Christians is learn how to read them. We are to do more than believe what we read-we are supposed to understand what we are believing.
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I was a dispensationalist premill and right now i am still learning and trying to find my ground either post mill or amill. Great teaching. And now i am leaning toward postmill.
Glad it was helpful!
Why in the world would you change from pre-trib to post trib and post mil???
@@tellitlikeitis5058 you obviously did not watch the video
@@tellitlikeitis5058 because I can't get past the 70 week Daniel passage that is interpreted by going along with easiest read on 69 weeks then skip forward 2000 years and do another week. Doesn't seem good hermeneutics to me. And I can't get over not using the easiest reading of several passages in the gospels - Jesus' own words and Paul about "this generation" and "soon."
@@andrealmoseley6575 Hi Andrea, you mention bad hermeneutics about Daniel's 70 weeks. Is that because of the pause? As I have studied it I find that an A/Postmillenial has to accept some sort of pause as well. If each week is determined to be 7 years which most people agree, and the 70 weeks start at 444 BC with King Artaxerxes (Neh 2:1-8), then Daniel's 70 weeks end at around 38-39 AD (just using basic math, I know there are other small factors, such as Jewish day length that makes it earlier). That means Daniel's 70 weeks ends 32-33 years before 70 AD. So that means no matter which millennial view you have, be it still to come (premill) or happened already (Amill/Postmill) you need a pause. One is shorter than another, but both are pauses. So what standard of hermeneutics are you referencing?
I've have been taught that post-mil is the "crazy" view that the "wackos" believe. That's how I perceived it at least. Honestly, post-mil kind of makes sense to me now. As a Calvinist too, it actually seems consistent and requires less mental gymnastics to explain away passages that say Jesus came to save the whole world. I've never considered that Jesus would actually save the whole world. I've been listening to "The Unseen Realm" too and post-mil seems consistent with the "be fruitful and multiply" command God gave Adam and Eve. It seems to me that the great commission is an extension of that command. At the end of the day, post-mil makes me more hopeful than the other two views even if it does turn out to be wrong.
I was taught Calvinism early in my salvation and God saved me from that way of thinking.. the church spent hundreds of years not believing any where close to what Calvin taught.. there would be no Point in Christs ministry of it were just to save a few he already chose to save.. doesn’t make sense.. John 3:16.. many passages about god weeping over his disobedient children.. free will.. it’s our choice to choose him.. that’s what a natural relationship requires.. I hope and pray you get away from this thinking.. I cried for weeks when someone taught me I had no way to help bring people to God.. Which is our meaning in life.
@@scottyfleming2203 Nah, I'm good.
@@scottyfleming2203 Sorry, I'll give you a real response. Do you think that when God spoke the whole world into existence, that he knew you would reply to my comment?
@@Zanroff no.. I chose to
@@Zanroff him knowing what I wound choose and forcing me to choose I think two different things.. what was The point of Christ then?? If he knew before we were born that we are gonna be sent to heaven or hell?
Long time fan, Doug. Please please please... keep this venue or production model up, this style of video. It is very #PraguerU-ish which I find to be VERY easy to watch and engaging as well as easy to share. Quick, easy, clear content is wonderful. Thank you so much for your continued faithfulness and work for the Kingdom of our Lord.
I agree. It's also good quality!
I agree; thank you!!
Totally agree!
Excellent Teaching and break down
This is, indeed, the clearest, MOST coherent presentation of the differing eschatological positions. Thank you so very much for taking the time to produce this teaching video! I'm feeling extra blessed to have access to such Biblically based resources and teaching. Thank you!💜✝️💜
You will never know how much you have helped me. I’ve read your stuff for years. I am a PhD psychologist. If I can ever be of any service (research, running down references, whatever), please, do not hesitate to ask. I am at your service.
I love the positive post-mil position! As a child of the 80’s-90’s who grew up hearing about Hal Lindsay and John Hagee, watching all the Christians I knew reading the Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other. I’ve run from, or flat out ignored, any kind of eschatological study. I decided that I’d rather not be so heavenly minded that I’m no earthly good and that I wanted to put much more effort into sharing the gospel than watching the sky. Yet I’ve recently through a reformed pastor friend discovered the preterist view of apocalyptic biblical literature and so much clicked in my brain! I realize that according to Matt 24:36 and Mark 13:32 that nobody really knows when Christ will return, but I find much comfort in verses like Isaiah 9:7. And hey, if I’m wrong, to quote Wilson in his eschatology debate “If I’m wrong, I’m willing to change my theology mid-air”. 🤷♂️
We got this doctrine from the earliest church fathers. And the Bible. I don’t know Darby
I love that opening quote! "We are to do more than believe what we read; we need to understand what we believe." Brilliant!
Here's something that is brilliant:
James 1:22-25
[22]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[23]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[24]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[25]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The round-table eschatological discussion you participated in (moderated by John Piper) was excellent. Especially today, I see so many of my good ole Southern Baptist family members who watched too much TBN and Hagee exclaiming about the end times and prophecy fulfilled. They were never taught that there are multiple eschatologies. I'm the only postmill in my family, and I'm also the only one who believes the rapture isn't a thing.
Same.
Im in the exact same boat, having grown up in the SBC. I have since left and joined a Reformed Presbyterian Church. Keep up the faith and God bless!
ditto! upon last mention of rapture around the dinner table, i simply mentioned that's a theory proposed by a man named darby only a few years ago (relative to church history)... a theory not even as old as the great State of Texas! ;)
My sisters and I have been going through the journey simultaneously. It's a progression... first you start by realizing dispensationalism is unbiblical, so you call yourself historic premil. Then you become amil, then postmil. You sit around the table at holidays and say to your father who got saved reading "Late, Great Planet Earth" that it's all his fault since he taught us to think for ourselves.
@Ryan Austin I watched that twice and found it to be very enlightening, but I did notice that about John Piper. The pre-mill guy was pretty annoying, but then so was Sam Storms a little bit too. Doug Wilson was calm, relaxed, and so clear in his views!
I really like and respect Doug and agree with much of his teaching--just not postmillennialism. Over the years there has always been a part of the body of Christ who have held this position, but I do not find it consistent with the plain reading of Scripture. Someone commented below that people have spent too much time watching TBN and Hagee. I, and the people I know who are premill, do not watch TBN or Hagee, though I know they have a following. People who have left premill for postmill and those who have left postmill for premill always say they changed because they were convinced that the other view was more consistent with a careful and serious study of God's Word. We shall see. Either way, God's people win because our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, is coming back. Praise God from Whom all blessings flow!
Thanks. You're nicer than me. I don't have much patience for well worded explanations of false doctrine.
Yep, we are all on the winning side at the end so, it will be interesting to know though which of these views turns out to be right , I would start taking wagers but…you know, gambling and such..
Please name one person that moved from Biblical Postmillennialism to imaginative Premillenialism and I will show you 100 who moved in the opposite direction. It just doesn't happen.
@@eddiebaker3267
You really don't know that for sure.
@@royjmcc7 Friend, I've been saved ALL MY LIFE, so almost .6 of a century. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and home with STRONG Christian family support from the time my mother was a girl, until now. There are MANY things that I DO know beyond any doubt. However... at this point, I fully agree with you that many doctrines are in dispute. That doesn't even phase me or shake my "knowledge" or "certainty". IF the Antichrist (man) does appear, as best we can tell, it will NEVER remove the faith in Jesus Christ that He Himself gave me, I believe, as an answer to the prayers of my grand parents, my parents and my own submission and acceptance of His sacrifice for me.
Buy I know where you're coming from.
This teaching format is incredibly helpful to me, and I think it will be to others. I want to be willing to go where scripture leads. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
By God's grace I "left behind" the dispensational Premillennial view and found the proper interpretation of Postmillennialism. Many thanks to great teachers such as James B Jordan (the GOAT), David Chilton, Doug Wilson, Gary Demar, RJ Rushdoony, Peter Leithart, and many others. It has truly led me to be on fire for our Lord knowing that we WIN!
Wouldn’t we win with either view? The victory path is just different. I do think the postmillenialists are about to have a wake up call and realize that nothing in revelation has happened yet and will be unfolding soon.
@@kingsolomon3175 Not a chance. In the premill view, the Great Commission FAILS. The Postmill position is faithful to Christ and His commands. .
@@kylec8950 dispensationalism and premillennialism are too separate ideas. It’s an injustice to lump them together. Dispensationalism is a false teaching. Premillenialism is not. In fact it’s impossible to reconcile the entire Old Testament if you take a post millenial view. All the prophetic books and even the prophetic images in the non prophetic books would be meaningless and nothing more than bizarre fanciful poetry to take a post millenial stance. Have you honestly read through the Old Testament? The whole thing is a picture of his coming reign on earth. To read the New Testament any differently would be an injustice. Why not just let the scripture say what it says. This bizarre allegorical view of things dont do any prophetic justice to what God has given us. If disciples have been made in every nation then the great commission hasn’t failed, I’m really confused by that statement
@@kingsolomon3175 In fact in the early church deemed what we call Premillenialism as the Jewish "fable" of Chiliasm. There is no way a Premill interpretation comes organically through the reading of Scripture- Unless you take the prophetic Scriptura "literally" , which would be an awful error.
" bizarre fanciful poetry to take a post millenial stance" Really? This just shows you don't have a good grasp on Biblical symbolism. It's tough, but getting a good book like "Through New Eyes" by James Jordan helps.
In the Premill view, Christ is not King, he is not reigning. He's waiting for some "throne" in Jerusalem before that can happen. Oh also another 3rd temple, will their be animal sacrifices? No NT text about ANY of that. In fact, its pretty heretical if you get down to it.
@@kingsolomon3175 Thanks for sharing your view. I really don't think I'm going to bother rethinking this seeing how my initial post thanking God how He opened my eyes to its false paradigm of viewing Scripture. was rescued from the Premill view. God bless you.
Extremely well done. Made so a simple man like me can now understand. Thank you.
Glad it helped!
@Christ Church @Douglas Wilson. Thanks. I am amill now, but am reading Chilton's Paradise Restored, and it is very compelling.
Thank you very much my brothers in Christ Jesus I have been waiting for an explanation I could understand and I just heard it. Thank you brother Doug. May GOD'S peace be upon you all.
Blessings Gary!
These are great for Sunday school lessons! I also really like the animation format. I thought it was easy to follow in Man Rampant and am glad to see it here
Glad you enjoyed!
We seriously need PhDs in Sunday schools across this country! I'm not kidding! Our younger generations are being bombarded with pseudo knowledge and lies about literally every single thing!
@@PaolaSanchez-hc5my you just need Spirit filled Bible teachers who have a firm understanding of the Bible, theology and church history.
Yes. Thank you. This is the video I will share with family and friends to explain my position of scripture. Praise the Lord!
I have been leaning this way for sometime, but this gave me clarity. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
I know three brothers in Christ, each holding to one of the following views: dispensational, pre-mill and a-mill. It is so true what you said about the a-mill & pre-mill (as well as the dispensational) views being doom & gloom. So very pessimistic. I was once a dispensationalist, and praise the Lord he brought me out of that false system. I now am post-mill, and all glory goes to God alone.
I’m torn because I like this position....but I grew up on Christian thrash grind and death metal....and premillennialism sure made for some gnarly album cover artwork! 🤣
Christian metal was the best! And my mom couldn’t argue with it because it was Christian hahaha. As I’ve grown into a mature Christian, . I’ve since become convinced postmillinialism is in line with the scriptures.
Thanks for what your doing, excellent explanations. We need more of this in our language. Greetings from Cuba
Wonderful teaching
Very well done and fair representation of all the schools of thought.
Oh, finally, a full rundown of the post-mil view! This was helpful. I think I'm starting to understand more of it now. I hope there is a Part 4. I'm still not quite clear on how the return of Christ looks, on this view. (I mean, as much as we can know from Scripture. I know some things we won't know until it happens.)
This was brilliant.
Wow this is awesome. I never had such a good understanding of post mil before
WOW! This video made it so easy for me to understand the Postmill position much better.
Great to hear!
How so?
I disagree with you, but I always love to hear your view on things
Thanks for watching, Kathy! Blessings!
Thank you. I need to re-think it all....again.
Very helpful to hear again.
Glad to hear it!
Where does rejection of God and lake of fire judgement fit into this view?
Very helpful. Thank you.
Doug, you beautiful sweatervested sledgehammer. Thank you.
I was a dispensationalist until listening to Kim Riddlebarger's Amillenialism 101 lectures. Now I believe that is the most correct eschatological position; however, I can totally see the Post-mil argument as well. Pre-mil, especially of the dispensational kind, is mostly repulsive to me at this point.
I found out it helps to read the Bible like one would read any other book, with many figures of speech such as metaphors, euphemisms, similes, idioms, parables, allegories, types, etc. It makes a huge difference when it comes to what churches teach and how they interpret Scripture. Taking something literally that should be taken figuratively can result in tremendous error.
But making a metaphor out of something that is meant to be taken literally is also highly problematic. Ultimately, we get to, "Did Jesus really mean He is the ONLY way to be saved? Isn't that narrow? Must be metaphor. Homosexuality can't be wrong; God made me this way. Also, just because there are plenty of metaphors in Revelation, that doesn't mean the entire book MUST be symbolic. For instance, if you said, "The greatest sprinter, Usain Bolt is a cheetah." Yes, it is a metaphor about him being a cheetah, but is it the TRUTH that he is the greatest sprinter. So, we can't just automatically make the whole book of Revelation be a mysterious book of METAPHORS. If you look up the Greek word that is translated as 'Revelation" you see it is Apocalypse and literally means, “the action or process of taking away the veil.”
Appreciate the video/teaching. I personally love how the partial preterist view shines light on scripture, using I believe the correct exegetical eschatology. I just have hard time reconciling the days present evil w/ the postmillenial view or alot of present optimism but I do appreciate learning more of it
@@prophetjeremiahjohnson269 a double portion of grace? That would make me double special & all i have to do is give you money??!!!
@Nero IV appreciate your reply, I see they removed the fake scare tactic scam comment, that was before yours but gone now. If you could or dont mind, can you give me a quick view of Amillennialism? I know there are some solid teachers that hold this view, I personally dont hold any but agree w/ alot of partial preterism views, Rev was written to 7 churches in the 1st century of what was soon to come, present persecution & great tribulation coming to Jerusalem & Temple. I emphasize Partial, as the Lord, our great Savior & eternal King will return to put all things to right
Great ending..... Thy kingdom come. Formerly, while my spirit would rejoice in the words my head didn't allow me to rejoice in them because of my "everything is getting worse" eschatology.
What about the 'falling of stars'? None of those OT Prophecies talked about falling stars that Matthew 24 mentioned?
We need one of these on presuppositional apologetics.
th-cam.com/video/EqMpflXOQnQ/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/hPDYHZeP6pA/w-d-xo.html
@@a5dr3 I appreciate the resources, brother.
@@prophetjeremiahjohnson269 wait so your saying I have enough faith/money I can become super blessed? What’s the catch?
Great video! Thank you!
Thanks, Derrick!
I have a serious question.
From a postmillennialist perspective of, "the gospel will continue to take over and flourish in the world, culminating in a golden age and then Christ will return", how do we fit our current technology, A.I. and transhumanism into this perspective?
I'm not sold on any eschatological position but I'm leaning towards postmill partial preterist. However, I'm looking at reality and seeing Neuralink, Google's sentient A.I., transhumanist movements, UFO's (possibly fallen angels), one world government right around the corner, one world global digital currency right around the corner, takeover of our food supply (possible global famine), man-made pestilences and diseases being released globally and I'm having a difficult time reconciling all of this with God allowing the world to continue. Can anyone help me with this?
I agree and have the same questions brother.
My brother theres a very simple answer we are in The Last Days.
Christ said be not deceived there will be many deceivers and false prophets .
Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Read the Word dont listen to men and the doctrines of men.
The scripture said they would wax worse deceive and be deceived themselves the world is going into the new world order (beast system) and is obvious to see with eyes to see.
God Bless You Brother in Christ
2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived
I shared with a good friend who holds to a dispensational viewpoint that he really should stop listening to the news and/or so called prophecy teachers who talk about this stuff constantly. He cannot stop talking about all the things you mentioned and seems to be in a constant state of anxiety because he has his eyes on what's going on around the world, rather than on Christ and His word. Maybe that's the answer to some of your concerns? If we truly have faith in the sovereignty of God and that Jesus is actually reigning from His throne now, it brings peace to our souls. But I do understand what you're saying here, and hope someone else will jump into the conversation with more insights.
Yes, I can.
So the first thing to consider is that all of these things are happening right now or in the near future, and that it is entirely possible, even likely, that we are not the “last days” in the more literal sense. That is to say, that we’re not nearing the 11th hour. In all likelihood, somewhere at the beginning or even middle of church history.
Another thing is to keep in mind what Paul says about how we struggle not against flesh and blood. The things he says we struggle against can probably best be summed up as ‘all -isms and authorities that push them, that challenge the claims of Christ and His Lordship.’ Some frankly couldn’t have existed in the days of the apostles. Some wouldn’t. And some won’t exist until long after you and I have gone to be with the Lord, awaiting the resurrection. Transhumanism is like this. Keep in mind also how many enemies Christ has already put under his feet (2 Corinthians 14 I believe). Where is unironic old paganism? Where are the ancient pantheons? Gone. The only current “followers” are LARPing atheists.
Throughout history the general trend will be up, towards total sanctification, with various downward dips throughout.
There will be new horrific -isms that rise up out of various root sins as secularism has out of pride, and as socialism has out of secularism. Every possible bad -ism must be dragged up and dealt with. Either it will surrender and be ‘baptized’ or it will be utterly crushed and then scorned by all future generations.
amazing video, and an amazing intellect and teacher in Doug Wilson.
Glad you enjoyed it!
And all of the answers
To all of the questions
Locked in his attic one day
He liked the quiet
Clean country living
And twenty more years slipped away
Well, the war took his baby
Bombs killed his lady
And left him with only one eye
His body was battered
His whole world was shattered
And all he could do was just cry
While the tears were a' fallin'
He was recallin'
The answers he never found
Jimmy Buffet
The questions about passages that bothered me so are now answered.
Thank you! I hate when people say we take the Bible literally in order to express that we take the Bible SERIOUSLY. Literally would be a serious problem. What are we to make of passages that say God has eyes or a hand when we know God is spirit? I don’t take the Bible literally on all things, but I do believe in hell, I do believe we are predestined, and I believe that there are many allegories and parables to convey a major point. “Literally” is an overused word these days that no longer has any meaning.
So by your logic should we to take Hell literally? Should we say that Jesus was just an idea and never really came to Earth? Your logic is that of fools.
The early church fathers taught the pretribulation rapture even found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which were discovered when Israel literally became a nation again as was prophesied and happened against all odds.
Yessir
1:55 I prefer the idea of taking it the way it was *intended to* be taken, which can be hard to find but I believe God preserves his word. (And I dont say that in the "KJV only" way I mean like in general)
It seems possible to be both Idealist and Preterist... they do not seem to be mutually exclusive, at least Idealist outlook.
1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, what the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord
They don’t want to hear Bible verses.
So helpful!
What does it mean for the entire world to be evangelized before the return of Christ?
That everyone is Christian?
No. This just means people will all hear Gods word, such as through missionaries. They still have to choose wheather they want to follow it or not. There are still people in the world believe it or not that still have never heard of Jesus. Especially Tribes that still live isolated.
This explained a lot; thank you, Pastor Wilson.
The “rapture” conjecture is an easy target, as it is constructed only of inference and conflicts with several direct Biblical statements. There is certainly a resurrection and catching up, just not the unbiblical way the rapture teaching describes it. Full disclosure, I used to believe and teach the rapture.
There are several passages, like the following, that undermine support for a full-preterist position.
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Luke 21:27-28 NASB95
The video touches on a few good cautions when it comes to interpreting the Bible. “Wooden,” or overly literal interpretation is a danger, but so is over-spiritualization or combing through history in search of fulfillment of certain Scriptures in the past.
Overall, a good basic overview of the four major positions. Personally, I don’t fit neatly into any of those categories. I think the truth is a little bit of each position, but all within a premillennial framework.
Thanks for the video.
These optimistic passages in Scripture could also refer to new heavens and the new earth after His return in glory. And then the new earth will be covered with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea. Most of the Olivet Discourse refers to the fall of Jerusalem A.D. 66-70.
Wow this is so educational and enlightening. Thank you for this upload
So in Preterism, when did the seals, bowls and plagues of Revelation happen and what about the 7 trumpets?
A lot of unanswered questions involving Eschatology. What about the 4 falls of Satan and the opening of the abyss? Are there any videos that help with the Postmillennial view of Eschatology and the layout of the prophetic timeline?
I currently hold to a premillennial post tribulation resurrection and rapture view.
Pastor Doug has a really great commentary on Revelation that addresses all of these questions. Even if you disagree with him, it's a very concise explanation of partial-preterism and postmillennialism: canonpress.com/products/revelation/. Thanks for watching!
@@ChristKirk thank you
Thanks, very good information.👍
Glad it was helpful!
The Lord's Prayer Matthew 6:
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. The Millennium Kingdom is on earth!
Very helpful! Thank you for sharing!
As a Catholic with heavy Augustinian leanings ive always been an amillenialist but im starting to see the logic of post millenialism. In a way the 2 views can overlap. If we redefine the simple church age as a kind of 'well theres a church and itll do whatever and be insular with Christ in heaven' to 'were in the millenium now, yes, but the church will grow over time as its been doing until the fall of Islam, hindiusm etc' then this is basically a more active, optimistic amillenialism
Wilson lists four of the views of the end times-futurist, idealist, historicist, and preterist.
But he either deliberately or ignorantly leaves out the FIFTH (and the actual proper position): the PROGRESSIVE PARALLELIST position.
The framework and nature of the book of Revelation are that there are several sections all of which present the history of the church in the world from a certain viewpoint to the very end. Each section takes the reader to the very end, only then to cover the same history of the church in the world from another point of view, taking the reader once again to the very end.
Let me illustrate.
Chapter 6:17 is the very end. So is chapter 11. So also is chapter 14. Likewise, chapters 19-22.
In the midst of these various treatments of the history of the world from the apostolic era to the very end are chapters celebrating the victory of Christ and the church, for example, chapters 10 and 14.
For a more careful and thorough explanation of the nature of the composition of the book I refer you to H. Hoeksema’s definitive commentary, “Behold, He Cometh.”
Read Sproul's book Last days according to Jesus. Soooo good
So I read the Wikipedia entry on Preterism and then Historicism. It clearly shows Preterism was introduced by Jesuits as part of the counter-reformation, while Historicism was agreed on as the Protestant view (before Dispensationalism).
My research shows that as well. How to combat against the common man who found themselves with scripture in hand after the Reformation & printing press. I await the soon coming temple in Jerusalem & the Ezekiel 38 & 39 war to maybe, FINALLY, unite the churches in eschatology, fulfilling Christ’s prayer in John 17.
How, then, does the preterist handle Matthew 24:30-31?
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
This is all presented as happening together. How am I supposed to take those verses, according to the preterist?
It's symbolic language setup in Gen 1 that the heavenly lights represent those that "rule" or have "dominion.
@@kylec8950 @Kyle C Not talking about the sun moon and stars. I'm talking about the sign of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect from the four winds at that time. How does the fall of Jerusalem fulfill that?
@@refugeguy777 It's pretty involved to explain but if you do a google search for "Paradise Restored by David Chilton" find the Gary North website that has the book as a free PDF. there is a chapter that gets into all of that letting Bible interpret the Bible. God bless
Matthew 24:30-31 reflects language used symbolically in the Old Testament. Instead of doubling down on "it hasn't happened yet", maybe you could explain why preterists are wrong for taking it as symbolic language?
@@jamesreed5678 Because they seems to be describing the Second Coming of Christ. Is His Second Coming supposed to be purely symbolic? Or is it literal?
Honestly, though, the language can be symbolic; I want to know what event the Preterist thinks fulfills this. Or if it hasn't been, why two events that are presented in the text as parts of one big event are actually separate things altogether.
If the world will be Christianized, through what lens shall we look at the verses that talk about the way to destruction being wide and the way to life is narrow (e.g. Matt 7:13-14)? Do we have to say that this is a reference to all of human history, and not necessarily any one time?
I am not fully qualified to respond to this as I am just now leaning toward the post millennial view, but those verses don’t necessarily say that wide is the path that leads to destruction at all points in time for all people. Jesus was talking specifically to the Jews listening to the sermon on the mount. Post millennials would say that this applies to the vast majority of Jews who rejected Christ and crucified Him.
Think of the parable of the mustard seed. Jesus said His kingdom is like a mustard seed that starts out smaller than all other seeds and grows to a large tree where all the birds of the air can nest. This implies that more and more will come to Christ as the gospel is preached.
Great video! I'm still trying to understand the various eschatological positions, and to decide which one I should actually embrace. The weakness of the Postmillenial position is seen in this video at approximately 13:30 where numerous passages are presented as still needing to be fulfilled. When Scripture says that all of the "ends of the world" will "turn to the Lord", or that "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord", such passages can easily be referring to EXTENT, and therefore already having been fulfilled. In other words, even in places as hostile to Jesus and to the Gospel as North Korea, or China, or Iran, the "knowledge of the Lord" has already penetrated those nations, and plenty of true believers occupy those lands. It's similar to the Bible's use of the term "world". It can refer to every person on the planet, or it can refer to EXTENT. Even in our day, if someone says, "the whole world was watching" a particular event, that doesn't necessarily mean that every eyeball was watching. It can easily mean that every corner of the planet was watching (i.e. EXTENT).
Me too. I think of the text "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). This is popular for the Amil position.
Ok various scripture talks about this same thing a little differently rolled like a scroll, fall from the sky, and such, But here is the thing this was also Followed by the sign of the son of man and the Return of Christ when EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM this is the thing that we all know has not yet happened And You cannot get around that reasonably
Postmillennialism is not a reformed basic, though. The historic reformed position on the end-times is Amillennialism (Luther, Bullinger, Calvin... later Bavinck, Berkhof...).
This is a great and clear summation of pre-mill thinking, but I really wish I could find a deep-dive into some of the passages I have questions about. I just watched Right Response ministries and their interview with Jeff Durbin (sp?) titled the Rapture and Postmillinialism but unfortunately, they never got to the Rapture part.
My questions deal with how the post-mill position sees things like the actual end of the age, when angels come to reap the wheat and tares. Jesus said the kingdom of God would be as a farmer planted wheat, and the enemy sowed tares -- that describes the current situation. When asked what to do, the farmer says he'll let them grow together, then when it's time, the reapers (angels) will gather the elect and also gather the condemned.
So I know the post-mill position leans heavily on the preterist view of the destruction of Jerusalem, that those 'last days' are in fact the destruction of the temple in AD 70 (so far so good), but how do you reconcile the aforementioned reapers?
That has never happened in history, where the wheat and tares were separated by the reapers.
A lot of the doctrine from the post-mill camp makes sense and in some cases it takes way less mental gymnastics than a pre-trib view, but there are a lot of verses that don't seem to fit the pre-mill framework (but again, maybe I'm missing something).
This video was incredibly helpful. Thank you.
Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36) This is a text the Amillennialist would use.
"This great kingdom is not an earthly kingdom established by carnal rule. It is not just another kingdom; as a kingdom it is different in kind-'now My kingdom is not from here' (John 18:36). It is not from here, but it most certainly is for here." - Pastor Doug
dougwils.com/the-church/s8-expository/110204.html
what about Rev. 21 and 22 no more death, tears, etc?
Silence from these Charlatans
Well, what about Isaiah 65? "The new heaven and new earth" passage. Is that in the future? After Christ's coming? If so, why do we see aging, death and sinners present? BTW, no more tears or the sound of weeping. But sinners are present. Can you explain that?
do you know any formal course to study about Postmill? thanks
Unfortunately we don't know of a course specifically on this doctrine. 'Heaven Misplaced' by Pastor Doug would be a great book to read.
Is there much, if any difference, regarding future events between a very optimistic amillennialist and a post-millennialist who does not have a literal view as to the 1,000 years but thinks the Church Age may go on for a very long time such that we right now might be in the early Church, not the end times.
We are in the last days ,all has been fulfilled there is nothing else, we live now in faith , hope and charity, and we are waiting and watching for our LORD and SAVIOURS return.
Andy Mcleister Totally wrong there is plenty more prophecy to be fulfilled. How could you think God would leave us in the dark for 2000 years with no guidance ?
He will guide us as he has guided the age between the old testament and the new testament.
This view seems to hang on Revelation being written before 70AD. I'm not sure that can be assumed.
Read Kenneth Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell." When I did my master's thesis, I found many historical commentators and theologians believed that Rev. was written before 70 A.D., although there are many who believed it was written after.
@@solanocanyonchurch9279 I do think this is the real lynch-pin, the fork in the road so to speak (as opposed to the "de-creation" language discussed in the video). However I don't think these views are inherently mutually exclusive. The way this subject matter is presented in Revelation, especially if it was in fact written after AD 70, then it could be a double fulfillment, or a two-part fulfillment, similar to many messianic prophesies in the OT. The fall of Jerusalem is too significant not to have been prophesied, but the prophesies about it also seem to be talking about more than the single event. What do you think?
@@_derpderp Me too, since I was like 15 or so. I've only heard Pre-wrath in reference to the tribulation, not the millennial reign. I'll see if I can find that.
@@solanocanyonchurch9279 it honestly shouldn’t matter when it was written because hardly any of it lines up with what happened in 70ad. A few loose items maybe. But have meteors struck the earth and poisoned the water? Have 1/3 ships sunk? Did stinging locusts come out of an abyss to torment unbelievers for 5 months? Did 1/3 earths population die in a plague? Did the Euphrates dry up for nations to make their way for battle against Jesus? Like what part of this verse do we not understand….
“and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
Revelation 22:19 ESV
Post- millenielists better tread with caution. By saying this stuff was fulfilled in 70ad you are taking them away. Because it’s absurd to assume even 1/10th of revelation happened during that time.
@@BillyBob-lt5nr Good way to look at it. I'm open to that.
Can I get some thoughts on Zechariah 14? Doesn’t that seem to have a future + premillennial teaching?
dougwils.com/tag/zechariah
@@ChristKirk thank you!
Can someone help me with John 12:31? What does it mean when it says, "the prince of this world will be driven out"?
Postmillennialists seem to agree with the Arminian interpretation of verses like John 3:16-17, John 12:32 and Gal. 3:8. Whereas Calvinists typically believe that these verses display God's desire to save certain individuals from among all the various races and nations, Arminians believe that they show God's desire to save every single individual in the world. When Doug used these verses to support the belief that the Gospel will permeate the entire world, until all individuals come to know the Lord, I couldn't help but see the similarity in the error that both he and the Arminians make. I think the same holds true for that type of interpretation of verses like Psalm 67:7 and Isaiah 11:9. I don't believe that all individuals will fear God and be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea, but that certain, select individuals from all the different nations will come to faith in Christ, and that those individuals represent all the nations of the Earth. I just can't see such an interpretation in light of passages like: Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
And Mat 7:14 Because strait the gate, and narrow the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Not necessarily. Jesus repeatedly said He was the saviour of the world. We believe that the gospel is the power of God for salvation. Believing that it will be successful throughout history is not universalism just optimism. Whether the entire or most of the world is saved by grace through faith or just a portion of the world is saved it remains SOLA GRATIA.
I believe the Postmil view is the best interpretation for the verses mentioned.
This seems to confuse a lot of issues. As a Postmill, I believe that in the end, God will save a majority (perhaps even a vast majority) of all humans that ever existed. That is not the universalist position; God will not save everyone.
The non-Calvinists often naively try to trap Calvinists by emoting that they believe that God will damn the vast majority to hell, and when I point out that I disagree and think more will be saved than damned, they reveal that actually, it is their side that thinks a vast majority of people will be damned and God is a bit incompetent when it comes to saving.
I very much agree with the Reformed understanding of those verses (which may be different from what you assume the Reformed view is) and very much reject the non-Calvinist view, and I don't see why Postmill would change that. God (and not man) is mighty to save.
@@oracleoftroy I wonder why the Bible says that the gate is straight and the way is narrow and few will find it.
@@doingtruth I postulate that so few will find it that the number is zero. See Romans 3 for example. That's why salvation is by God's grace alone, and not through any work of man like finding the gate.
@Bjorn Halfthor Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Seems like you've got a large flock and a broad way that leads to life.
Genuine Questions. Why are we to pray for his kingdom to come if its already here ? Why is 1000yrs not literal when other time frames given are example 40 days 40 night's , 400yrs of slavery ,3day nights in the tomb, 6 days of creation, Daniel's 70 weeks and other's?
To focus on one of your examples, you are saying Daniel's 70 weeks are literally a sequence of seven 24 hour days repeated 70 times? Or are they some time period other than norman human weeks? If God can use a week to mean a longer period of time, why can't God use a day to mean 1000 years or 1000 years a day? And if such things are in the realm of possibility, why can't 1000 years in a very abstract book also be seen as not 3652500 days, but a longer period of time?
I enjoy Doug Wilson's teaching, His presentation on this subject was especially clear except for one thing: I want to know what he means by "effective" evangelism. Does he mean all people will be saved? All people will hear the gospel? It doesn't seem to me that he intends to imply that effective evangelism is the same as God's effectual calling. Does he address effective evangelism in another presentation?
excellent
still just doesn't click, it would be nice, but with everything going on, its hard to see or grasp. I know someone will say, we don't live by sight, but its still hard.
The funny thing is that every single generation since the start of the church has said that exact same thing.
Every single generation since then has been absolutely convinced that they are living in the last days because of the horrible things going on in the world.
I would say that the generation that lived through the start of either world wars would have had more ground to say “I think the end is near.”
I’m just saying… have some perspective.
Do things seem bad because surely the end will happen in your lifetime… or because sin still exists in the world which has caused, is causing, and will cause extraordinary suffering? Something to think about.
SO GOOD!!!
Cheers!
Great video!!!
Great video. I am convinced that we are in the period of time when Satan has been let out of his chains, and he is out currently deceiving the nations. It's the only period of time that there is no timeline for.
At 13:11, yeah, that's pretty much 2 Timothy 3:13. Evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Great stuff Douglas. Very biblically solid. Loved it. The production - which I know would have taken a lot of time - is first class and very engaging.
One question though...If you're a Preterist does that mean you believe ALL prophecies have been fulfilled? And if no then which prophecies are still to be fulfilled? Thanks a lot.
I just wish Pastor Doug, closed by saying this is not a salvation issue.
That you can still okay to break bread with pre/post mills. A lot of people get worked up over this stuff
Absolutely not a fellowship or salvation issue!
I'm not sure he needs to. The people who would accept that already know disputing these things doesn't put one outside of salvation, and the people who reject that are posting drive by comments about how Doug is a heretic because they disagree with him, but don't love Jesus enough to obey his commandment and present several witnesses for their horrible accusations.
God Bless America 🇮🇱🇧🇷🙏🏽
Well... Actually, the disciples asked more than 1 question to Jseus on Mt 24.
Something to consider.
@13:18 The postmil view Doug just described contradicts the clear teaching of Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
few find life, many stay on the broad path to destruction. The idea that somehow in the future all the nations turn to Christ en-mass just does not line up with this teaching.
Yes, that is one passage that has to be considered: dougwils.com/the-church/s8-expository/thy-kingdom-come.html
@@ChristKirk Thanks for the reply. That said, "The narrow gate was for the remnant of the Jews of the first century, and then immediately after, in that passage, the Gentiles would stream in. " Umm I don't know where he gets the idea that in this passage in Matthew it in any talks about Gentiles streaming in? The next section is a warning that many who think themselves saved are not on the narrow path and will hear, "depart from me you who continue to practice lawlessness, I never knew you." The context of that passage, though preached to a 1st Century Jewish crowd, I find is in now way restricted to that audience only, but is rather a warning to people of all the centuries that the gate is narrow and the path is difficult...
@@pastormarkm I believe you’re avoiding the dispensational camp by speaking in this fashion. That may be your leaning, but I don’t know. Paul teaches a new, different gospel that was not the same which was preached during Christ’s earthly ministry. Paul tells us that Christ died for ALL sin and we are to believe this glorious truth to be saved…without revocation. The fact is, all sin debt is paid for today and the only sin that will prevent salvation is denying Christ’s blood sacrifice. Salvation is easy!
@Bjorn Halfthor While I agree with you to a point, we are to learn from all scripture because it is all inspired and profitable for teaching, reproof and training in righteousness 2 Tim 3:16) The nature of the gate and the path of/to salvation as Jesus describes in Matthew is in no way changed by the audience. It is a spiritual truth for the church age, not just for the Jewish nation.
@@metasolo1222 You supposition that Paul brought a new gospel, just does not line up with scripture. Galatians 2:1-3
1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also.
2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.
3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
1) So Paul checks with the Leaders of the Church in Jerusalem to make sure that He is not teaching error.
Jude 3 3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
2) This faith was once for all handed down to the saints and Paul did not change it. He brought the faith to the gentiles, but the change was made by the Holy Spirit through the leaders of the whole church gathered at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15.
I believe the premil, not necessarily "dispensational" premil, view. Pastor Wilson uses the term "naturally" and I use the term "normally", but I mean what he means as well. We just do not agree on what is to be taken as symbolic and what is to be taken as literal in specific passages. We both take much to be symbolic, and much to be literal because grammar allows for both, not either/or. Asaph showed the normal/natural use of grammar for understanding his point with the word "as." God isn't a heavy drinker, but as one as a picture of the truth behind the actual. The same thing happens in Revelation and elsewhere. Sans the "as" and one must see what other cues may be present to help identify how to understand a passage. Revelation 20's thousand years, for example. No cues (to me) to take it symbolically, but as a literal time period.
Thanks for your response, Craig. Blessings!
May you guys do one on the two witnesses?
Good luck with that since the two witnesses won’t show up till halfway through the final 7 year tribulation. Which they think already happened. Post millennialism is wishful thinking. Nothing more. We will be in the 7 year tribulation this fall when the $audi Cr0wn Pr1nce brokers a peace deal with Israel late October to early November.
@@kingsolomon3175 not trying to be snobby or judgy but isn’t your prediction wishful thinking? I hope I have the log out of my own eye because I did at one time act very very bold in my predictions from revelation while thinking I was speaking truth. The truth is revelation is a very challenging book and humility is required. My own heart believes and I think scripture verifies this: God did not give us a timetable so we can make diagrams that look nice. Thanks but I’m talking to myself just about 6 months ago so realize I’m not doing this out of hate or judging. Instead I see myself in your comment and so I’m just giving you some of the revelation God gave me of my own pride (while I was trying to read revelation 😂😂) Ease up I think we all gotta just hear each other out. Please don’t get offended at me I’m trying to love you, sorry if it doesn’t come out that way in text
@@jamesharris3642 Yes. I spent my younger years believing the TBN version because that was what my sweet old pastor taught. I taught it to my children.
I'm now much more humble about Rev. and freely admit that I don't know.
This was interesting. It does raise questions and I'd love to see a lecture on the entire book.
Be again they cannot
I love that Doug Wilson is good at saying things in a snazzy and bite sized manner. The only problem I have ever had with him is that his snazzy way of speaking has permeated his communication so much that he trivializes views that oppose his and often uses the most extreme or nonsensical examples of opposing views. He does not seem to be interested in representing opposing views accurately.
I agree! He definitely misrepresented the position I take: HISTORICISM.
I’m with you. It becomes more about being clever and witty than sincere. Gets old quick.
Why emphasize what you believe to be false ? It's only logical to discuss the truth in detail, not lies
The book of revelation was written during the reign of Domitian... between 81 to 96 AD. Many years after the destruction of the temple... does't that represent a serious difficulty for amils?
Apparently, Post mils has ignored the book of revelation.
Very well said!
Pastor Doug,
THANK YOU for presenting the truth!
I hate the lie (Dispensationalism) that a lot of pastors have bought into and peddle it off!
Our church has taken a pessimistic defeating position hence our country is in chaos.
Gods Law shall prevail by Christians like ourselves!
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. - acts 1:11
So according to the post millennial position are we in the period of a 1000 years and literally indefinite period?
So called!!!
The Antichrist has already come and Jesus is here. 😅 it is a ridiculous position
So, there's only two choices for Daniel, literal OR allegorical? That's why I like the expository preaching of good dispensationalists who teach the Scriptures verse-by-verse.
Prophecy cannot be brushed away with a phrase like "apocalyptic imagery". Behind every symbol is a greater reality!
Prophecy is serious business. It began in Genesis 3:15. The last image this world has of Jesus is in His humility, crucified on a cross -- but it won't be the final appearance.
The Jews seemed to have more anticipation for His first coming than the church has of His victorious 2nd Coming.
I believe in the imminent return of Jesus and the only doctrine which holds this accurate view is the pre-tribulation Rapture view.
Y'all might have a kingdom now without the King, but I'm looking for the Blessed Hope any minute -- and it won't spoil any of my plans to see His return!
Are we talking about chapter 9 or just all of it?And Mark....his coming to take vengeance is on the wicked and adulterous generation I think Matthew 23:35-39 makes that clear.
@@ttownsupreme2183 indeed, it is God's wrath stored up. Yet, it is not appointed unto us (the Church) to enter into His wrath.
MArk Dandrea pretrib is incorrect because Jesus said we would have tribulations and that HE is coming after the tribulations
Excellent! Love it!
This view was held by titans of the faith like Jonathan Edwards and biblical scholars like Hodge & Warfield, but it’s now somehow considered a ‘radical’ position by Hawaiian shirt pastors & guitar-solo evangelicals 😅