How Can God Punish People for Eternity for Not Hearing the Gospel? (Dr. William Lane Craig)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2019
- In this clip, Dr. William Lane Craig is asked about the problem of the unevangelized. How can an all-loving God condemn people to Eternal Damnation that have never even heard the Gospel?
Link to the full interview: • Answering Objections t...
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#WilliamLaneCraig #Evangelism #Apologetics
It's such a weird condition on being saved, that you have to believe it. Mountain rescue teams don't find people lost on mountains and ask them "Do you believe that we've come to save you?" and only rescue the person if they say yes.
A better illustration would be:
A mountain rescue team has come to save you and starts calling out for you to walk out of your cave and be saved; You need merely walk out, believing that you are not hallucinating or insane or childish for believing you could hear the rescue team calling your name.
@@garfunkle37exactly. Like Noah and the flood, he had to believe God that there would actually be a flood in order to make the ark and shelter his family, otherwise he wouldn’t have made it and wouldn’t have been saved. It’s a natural consequence not a negotiation
"For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus" (Rom 2:14-16 ESV).
Well brother - this isn’t within context. This is a rebuke against Jews who can’t hold the law while they tote the fact that they point & laugh at gentiles who are going to hell
All people are without excuse & Gods righteousness is revealed from heaven in 2 ways
1.) Justified wrath on all people (for all plainly know & are without excuse)
2.) Justified forgiveness by the sacrifice of Christ
Lol what context, MrMcClovin? All he did was quote a verse.
Missionary: "Believe in Jesus, and you will have eternal life". -- Unevangelized: "Do those who have never heard of Jesus go to heaven?" -- Missionary: "Yes!" -- Unevangelized: "Why did you tell me then?"
Every one thinks us here in Africa are ignorant
We know the gospel of Jesus Christ 💆🏽♂️
There is olny two options for humans: (1) Eternal Damnation; (2) Eternal Redemption. The fact is, you have to make a eternal decision, because your life was created to be eternal anyway, and God will fulfill this surely.
I don't believe God does punish people for all eternity for not hearing the Gospel. He said if we don't have the law, it is written on our hearts so we can still obey it. If we hear it and deny it, that is a different story. God said the end will not come until the entire world has heard the word. Which means to me that those who don't hear the law and die will still be judged by their heart and whether they followed the law that was written on it or not. Only God knows if those individuals truly did or not.
Edit: After watching, I am still happy with my answer and that someone as bright as William agrees.
It is written on my heart that the God of the Bible is a monster. So I cannot follow both my heart and him.
@Kevin Allen
That isn't even a clever comment 🤦♂️
@Brando I cannot follow both my heart and him. I'm not trying to be clever. The morality written on my heart doesn't match the Bible. Do you have an explanation for that?
@Kevin Allen
Yes I think I do. You aren't worried about the morals written on your heart, you'd rather slander God and say if what he did or didn't do was moral in your opinion or not. This is not the law written on your heart. It's the evil of man's nature apart from God. You actively ignore the law on your heart to condemn something beyond your own understanding. You deny God, thus deny the law on your own heart. This is why if you hear about Christ's forgiveness, you cannot deny it and still be saved. Jesus loves you by the way :)
@@brando3342 he loves him so he wont torture him forever. Or he doesnt love him, than he can torture him forever. This is very simple logical conclusion.
Do I have this right?
- Hear the gospel + accept = heaven
- Hear the gospel + reject = hell
- Don't hear the gospel + would have accepted = heaven
- Don't hear the gospel + would have rejected = hell
Question: why bother with a gospel at all if god knows who would and would not have accepted anyway?
@AdamDoes SE
Just because God knows, doesn't mean he makes us choose it. He can know, while we still freely choose. That is the incredible nature of an omniscient being. No matter how many probable things we could choose, he has what you could call the most intensive and accurate algorithm ever known. If you knew all people in all the world for all of time in the past, do you think it might be easier to know what someone might choose to do in the future? That's how you can think about all knowing, without causing.
@Daniel Blois
It is only pre-destined if you are the one who is omniscient. Since that is only God, only God can claim something to be "pre-destined". This means that our finite knowledge and wisdom gives us the will to choose freely. While God already knows what we will choose. If we are all pre-destined, only God knows that to be the truth. This is why when Paul talks about predestination he uses words like "maybe".
@Daniel Blois
You don't know what God predetermined for you, until you choose to do it freely.
@Brando If God already can judge people based on whether they would accept the gospel even without presenting it, why does he bother presenting it? You didn't actually answer the question asked. And I'm not sure what it means to accept or reject the gospel. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, but that's not a choice I made, so not a rejection.
@@Kevorama0205 "You didn't actually answer the question asked." welcome to my world in the land of the TH-cam comment section. :)
great video my friend!!! One of the major problems with us as people is that we think that we are good,when in fact we are not. We are not separated from God because we didn't "hear" the gospel. Our own sin has separated us.
sin created by who? when not by allmighty god, than is there another allmighty or mighty enough person?
@@radoslavkhun299 Nope, sin is more like a concept and not an object. It's the event that His sentient creation does. Hence when we say someone is a sinful person it means that he's done something undesirable to God; as well as when someone is sinning, it means that he's doing something wrong.
Satan and Mankind created sin not God.
For God created all THINGS.
Just like How He created nuclear energy and mankind chose to use it to Destroy Japan.
Those are some impressive mental gymnastics guys!
@@radoslavkhun299 sin is absence of good just like darkness is absence of light
@@ralphjosephrjm326 THINKING wrong is sin too! Thought Crimes.
God created Satan knowing Satan would rebel and God would be forced to create a Hell for Satan and all the future humans who will occupy it.
Please try being honest, theist.
Great answer!! God bless
Every knee shall bow and every tounge shall confess
I heard a quote a long time ago from Annie Dillard, an American author, who once told an interesting story. She said, "I read about an Eskimo hunter who asked the local missionary priest, ‘If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?’ ‘No,’ said the priest, ‘not if you did not know.’ ‘Then why,’ asked the Eskimo earnestly, ‘did you tell me?” I was never exactly sure what to make of that story, I wonder what Dr. Craig would think.
Because not hearing the gospel doesn't automatically mean that they are safe. One person may not hear about Christ and become a bad person at the same time.
People who haven't heard about Christ will be judged according to their hearts.
When they die, God would know If they would be willing to choose humility, patience, kindness, selfcontrol, mercy towards others, faith, and love.
They would be given a choice to be with the God who dictates good and evil according to his will
or if they would rather choose their own way.
The reason why it's important for the people to know about Jesus as early as now is because the truth will set them free. Day after day, the enemy is feeding them lies; and these lies pull them further and further from God's truth and His great plans. The longer we let the enemy feed those people with lies, the longer those people would suffer and the bigger the chance for the enemy to feed them wrong information about God that would make them hate Him or not even listen to the message of Christ.
Sorry for the long message but I hope it gave you a little bit of clarity.
@Ralph Joseph RJM What lies? Do you think just because people are saying things you don't believe are true, they must be lying?
No "enemy" is evident, so how could it be feeding anyone lies? No one has reported being fed lies by any Satan. And why does God stand by and watch as people fall for these lies, and then punish people because they fell for them?
@@ralphjosephrjm326 I don't get it. Don't Christians say that we are not able to earn the salvation no matter how hard we try to? That we'll never deserve to be saved because the standards demanded by God are too high to be matched by our flawed nature? That the only way is accept Christ sacrifice to be forgiven even though we wouldn't deserve it?
Ralph Joseph RJM the way you are setting this up makes salvation completely unnecessary. Why wouldn’t god just make the world it such a way that it functions off of what is in each of our ‘hearts’. They way it is now is an insane labyrinth of confusing loopholes. Better yet, if he already know what we are going to do why not create us in our final destination and skip this farce of personal choice in the matter?
NaVi ' that is your opinion and there is no way to demonstrate the accuracy of either. That is the problem.
Yeah, but in this case it means that God doesn't need us to exercise our free will to judge us and send us to hell. He already knows who is going to choose him and those who are not and if those who wouldn't choose him don't need to have the opportunity to make the choice then there's no need for them in this world. It's just crazy and incoherent with the rest of the theology.
God knows, but it's the sinners fault for commiting the sin, and God is just in punishing him. And God does let sinners live so that he may be glorified & that those in the faith may be tested so they grow in their faith, or to in general just aid the saved, God's elect
It’s only incoherent to those who don’t understand the what’s being done here.
Gods knowledge of an event doesn’t cause it. It’s still free will. To say there is no need for them isnt true. That person could have made a negative impact on another person that brought them to Christ. God is the ultimate judge. He is all knowing. If he says this person wouldn’t have come Christ the it’s true. God has reached out mankind since creation and man has a pattern of rebelling against God. We all have done it. Some simply like the ways of rebellion and choose darkness.
@@THEAMERICAN-ob2wt
Even before the human actually existed? Yeah, right.
@@THEAMERICAN-ob2wt
Where's the free will of those babies who died in their mother's womb, who have never heard of Christ? The mental gymnastics! 😆😆 Your god corrupts everything humans have, morality, meaning in life, etc. It is a disease.
"God will judge people on the basis of the light that they were given". I agree with this- and because I agree with this proposition I don't believe in "eternal conscious torment". No one would deliberately choose "eternal conscious torment" if he/she knew what he was choosing. Our wills are orientated towards the good such that we cannot choose something unless it is good (or, at least, perceived to be good in some sense for us). We can never choose evil qua evil but only under the aspect of the good. Someone would have to be either insane or completely misunderstand what hell is in order to choose it.
If there is a god who has manufactured an existence where ANY conscious being would suffer without end for ANY reason, is an evil monster I want nothing to do with.
What if there exists a conscious being that actually desires to suffer without end for eternity? Would a god be evil if he allows such a being to suffer as such?
I AGREE. "Since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities...have been clearly seen - being understood from what has been made. So that people are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).
Everyone should go watch the debate on hell between William Lane Craig and Raymond Bradley. A rare instance where Craig performed quite poorly. He really struggled to defend the doctrine of hell against the devastatingly philosophical/logical problems posed by Bradley.
"And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (John 12:32)
John 12:32, 17:2, Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36, 14:11, *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Rev. 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3, The Total Victory of Christ videos.
There are tribes on earth we don't even know of. For generations people died without knowing the gospel. Means for generations no-one wanted to hear the gospel???
Does olam and aion always mean forever? Or just when attached to God? Isaiah 55:3, Jonah 2:6 etc.
What a relief to have WLC around to interpret Scripture for us. And all this time, I thought that was the Pope's job.
Are you kidding? He gave two different answers. First he said everyone is judged based on the quality of message he received (which makes spreading the gospel unnecessary, since everyone will be judged fairly regardless of how much gospel he knows). Then he said that anyone that didn't hear gospel wouldn't accept it anyway (which means God thinks that all Africans, Native Americans, people of Oceania and Far East wouldn't be saved anyway, but people in Europe and Middle East would, which is racist).
''God has ordered the world so that anyone who would believe the gospel if he heard it is born at the right place and time to hear it.'' seems very deterministic. And also if God judges fairly the unevangelised why evangelise if it is not requiered for salvation?
This pure speculation on Lane's part. No proof.
There was no mention of hell as eternal torment or Satan as an evil deity in the Old Testament.
Only Sheol, the grave and permanent abode of the dead for both righteous and wicked.
The satan was just an adversary in God's court doing nothing without God's permission. The story of Job is a good example..
Christian authors invented hell from the Greek Tartarus and Satan's evil character from the Zoroastrian evil deity Ahriman.
Sorry but it is true. If you're referring to Isaiah, Lucifer isn't a proper name but a phrase meaning morning star. The serpent in the Garden wasn't the Devil in the Genesis myth. Christianity claimed that and made it up. Ask the Jews.
Where is hell mentioned as hell in the Old Testament? Hell should've been around from the beginning instead it was Sheol in early Judaism- the pit and permanent abode of the dead for the righteous and wicked.
When you have time watch "Dr Christine Hayes on the Origins of Yahweh" on the Pinecreek channel.
The host Doug did this show at my request. The 33 minute mark gets into the ancient history of the Israelites. The first part of the show is about the Exodus.
I think you'll find it interesting.
If you watch it give me your feedback.
Premises:
(1) A being that can make souls can unmake them into nothingness.
(2a) If a being requires or chooses for other beings to permanently suffer for it to be satisfied, it is intrinsically and necessarily sadistic.
(2b) Because a perfectly moral being would not administer punishment capriciously (i.e. suffering merely for the sake of having something suffer), any suffering it instills in other beings must necessarily have specific and cogent goals it seeks to accomplish FOR the being who is suffering. In other words, the suffering necessarily, if it be necessary at all, must be carried out to bring about a specific CHANGE which, once accomplished, would make any suffering subsequent to the change pointless.
(3) If a being permanently punishes creatures for finite crimes with infinite punishment, that is necessarily asymmetric.
(4) All crimes humans commit are finite.
(5) God is not sadistic.
(6) God is not asymmetric.
Conclusions:
(I) God does not require ANY beings to suffer for eternity.
(II) If beings go to hell, it is temporary, or eternal only if they wish to exist eternally in hell.
(III) God should rather make a recalcitrant being into nothingness than have it suffer forever.
(IV) An eternal and inescapable hell of pain and punishment does not exist.
And many Christians (like SDAs) believe that the eternal torture hell doctrine is not taught in the Bible.
@@chris-nj3vg People definitely have various convictions about the matter.
Best answer to that question I've ever heard.
In Islam , all those who never heard about Islam wouldn't ho automatically to hell.
Some say they'll go immediately to heaven and some say they'd be tested in the afterlife. No one would be judged before hearing the prophets' message.
I was gonna tackle William Lane Craig's (huge respect for the man, he helped me out of my atheistic phase. I can't stress enough the impact that I feel he's had on the Christian community and on apologetics, so my disagreement on this doctrine is not intended as a besmirchment) views on Hell on his own channel, but comments arent enabled on that video so I'll do it here. William Lane Craig is one of the many, the majority of western believers really, who use free will as a kind of cop out for God saving people. Well, God wants to save everyone but He just can't because He has limited Himself to working within the scope of human free will, and therefore can only save those who willingly submit to His lordship. Now here's where the rubber meets the road on this. If you ask virtually anyone worth their salt, including Craig, well why wouldn't God just reveal Himself to everyone in a concrete way like Paul on the road to Damascus so they would believe? Their answer is almost always going to be because that would be breeching their free will. The glaringly obvious question that stems from this is, well okay, then why did He do it to Paul? I think we need to take that into account. Another question I might ask. Craig would affirm that the only chance you get for salvation is in this life. Jesus isn't revealing himself to you after youre dead to offer another chance to accept him. There's actually no biblical support for this I might add. The single best verse that Craig uses to defend this view is where the NT states that it's appointed to man once to die and then the judgment, but that does not at all suggest that nothing can happen between death and judgment. It's merely stating a chronological reality. You might say it's appointed to man to be born, and then to die. That statement is true, but obviously there are plenty of things that happen between being born and dying. Stating the chronological reality of it does not in any way suggest that nothing could possibly happen in between the two events. My question would then be this. Craig would affirm as He did here that God is loving and wants all to be saved. If that's the case, why in the world would he set so many boundaries between Him and this goal? Why would He consider a road to Damascus experience as "breeching someone's free will, so that's a no go" (despite the fact that he literally did it for Paul and a similar encounter for Thomas) and on top of that, say "Well, when someone dies they're gonna know for a fact that I exist and that I loved sinners enough to send Jesus Christ to die in their place, but it's just out of bounds to try saving them at that point?" Can anyone give me any logical explanation for any of this train of thought? It's bias. Deeply engrained bias that's been with the church for over a thousand years thanks to the influence of figures like Augustine. There's really nothing else to it.
It's not eternal conscious torment, it is eternal death. To be dead is to be dead.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn't read as unconscious.
Why do you automatically accept the Latin church (Augustine) translation of Aionios into "eternum"? You should dig deeper. It means "age-abiding correction" and nowhere does it say "eternal conscious torment" that is also a roman catholic invention.
Brilliant
If it sounds crazy it’s because it is. Bill pulling things out of his back side.
To think I use to look up to him. What a huge disappointment.
(See Tentmaker777 or even Total Victory of Christ--great channels.)
@@stevenfrasier5718 I don't get it, what's the problem?
@@BesserGlauben
See Total Victory of Christ and/or Alan Hess.
@@stevenfrasier5718
Well, I didn't find any valid objection there yet.
So what's the problem? Could you point it out or at least guide me to a specific video?
@@BesserGlauben
This was a post 3 years ago and I don't have the time or interest to get into Peterson. In a nutshell, Jordan may be a great psychologist but he would make a horrible Theologist. He thinks we came from lobsters and he should stay in his lane. Please check out the channels I've recommended.
I'm still so confused, am I going to hell for being an agnostic-atheist? Is it eternal for me if so?
There is no eternal conscious torment in a "hell." The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 6:23.
⚫ "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life though Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23)
There is nothing in that verse about eternal life in some sort of fiery "hell." Unless you receive the gift of eternal life you will perish in what is called the "second death," after judgment. After that second death, there is no more hope of life or resurrection. You perish. You're destroyed. You don't exist any more. It's the end of you. Here's a few Bible verses about this:
⚫ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10).
⚫ "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalms 92:7).
⚫ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29).
⚫ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25).
⚫ "Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7).
⚫ "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . . .
⚫ "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 4:1,3)
John 3:16 says the same: we either receive the gift of eternal life, or we perish:
⚫ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
So where does the fiery eternal "hell" idea come from? King James' translators added it to the Bible by using their word "hell" 23 times in the New Testament . . . in place of three different Greek words. Each of those three words has a different meaning . . . and none of those three refers to a place of fiery, perpetual torment. The three Greek words are:
▬ άδης
(“hades” in English); appears as "hell" ten times
and as "grave" once in the KJV New Testament;
refers to the place of the dead, the grave, similar to
the Hebrew word "she'ol" in the Old Testament
▬ γέεννα
(“geenna” or “gehenna” in English); Appears as "hell"
12 times in the KJV New Testament; refers to the valley
used as a dump outside Jerusalem in Jesus' time.
Constant fire and maggots there permanently destroyed
whatever was thrown in.
▬ ταρταρωσας
a verb, an inflection or variant of ταρταρόω;
(“tartaroo" in English); used only once: to describe
fallen angels being put into a figurative pit or prison,
to be held in restraint.
You don't have to take my word for this. Look it up with online Bible study tools such as blueletterbible.org.
Translators (especially King James Version, 1611) made a real mess when they used the word "hell" in place of these three Greek words. They had inherited their hell concept, by tradition, from the Catholic church. By using "hell" they were twisting the meanings of the Greek words to conform to their concept of a place of perpetual, fiery torment.
Over time translators have recognized this error and footnoted their versions, noting the original Greek words, or even using the original Greek words - and not using the word "hell." Young's Literal Translation (YLT), for example, never uses the word "hell."
Here's an example of Jesus speaking of "hell fire":
⚫ "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:" (Mark 9:47)
"Hell" in that verse is from that Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna," a reference to that dump outside Jerusalem. The trash and garbage was thrown there to be destroyed by the constant fire - "hell fire" - and worms - maggots - in the dump. *Jesus likened the destruction of the wicked to being cast into the dump for permanent, final destruction. They would be figuratively thrown into the dump for destruction.*
The "lake of fire" in Revelation pictures the same, final destruction:
⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
Here's another verse where "hell" is from the Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna":
⚫ "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
So, when Jesus said the soul can be destroyed in hell, what did He mean? First, "destroy" is from the Greek word ἀπόλλυμι ("apollymi") which means "to destroy fully" (from _Strong's Defintions_ ). And "hell" in that verse is from the Greek word γέεννα ("geenna" or "gehenna") which was the dump outside Jerusalem, where fire and maggots destroyed all the trash and bodies that were thrown in. *Jesus likened the fate of the unsaved* to being "thrown into the dump," into "hell [gehenna] fire" for destruction.
In Matthew 25:46 Jesus describes the fate of the unsaved:
⚫ "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
When a criminal is executed, the punishment is not "everlasting" in the sense of being ongoing, perpetual punishing. No, the punishment is "everlasting" in the sense that it is permanent, complete and final and irrevocable. It will be the same for the unsaved; they will destroyed and that will be the end of them. Their punishment is finished and stands forever; it is not perpetual, ongoing punishing.
The words "permanent" and "final" never appear in the KJV; "everlasting" is often used instead. It's a mistake to assume "everlasting" means an ongoing, perpetual process. It can refer to a permanent, finished and irreversible condition.
The "lake of fire" in Revelation is like the gehenna "dump" fire. It pictures final, irrevocable destruction. Those persons who are "cast into the lake of fire" are destroyed. They are destroyed, through death; specifically the second death, after judgment. They have no further hope of life or resurrection. They will never "be" again:
⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
Even death and the grave (hades) will be destroyed by being figuratively "cast in the lake of fire":
⚫ "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14,15)
After the final judgment and the destruction of the wicked, death is effectively destroyed-because everyone left will have received eternal life. And the grave (hades) is destroyed, because no one will be left in the grave awaiting resurrection for judgment. Paul wrote:
⚫ "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)
Death will be destroyed . . . after the wicked have been destroyed through death and the rest have received eternal life.
Eternal, conscious torment is a fiery hell is not "justice," as some preachers would have you believe. No: it's both ridiculous and un-Biblical. Those who teach that God will mercilessly (and pointlessly) torment the wicked forever are doing major damage to Christianity. Actually, they're doing Satan's work, portraying God as a sadistic monster and making Christianity look foolish.
@@TheBibleSays
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
What about that one?
@@paladinheadquarters7776
Revelation 14:9-11:
▬ "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,"
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11)
Those who took the mark of the beast will have "no rest day or night." Why? Because they will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out . . . upon the men which had the mark of the beast."
The pouring out of God's wrath on mortal men who worshipped the beast is described in Revelation 16; here are the first two verses:
▬ "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." (Revelation 16:1,2)
Because of that "noisome and grievous sore" they'll have "no rest, day or night."
Their final punishment (later) will be destruction (reduced to ashes) similar to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah was finished long ago. Destruction by fire in the future is described in Revelation 20:7-9. After the fire goes out, only ashes and smoke remain. The smoke does not disappear the moment the fire goes out: it continues to rise.
Malachi describes this destruction by fire:
▬ "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . . ."
▬ "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 4:1,3)
That will be the end of them. Figuratively "cast into the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev 21:8) they are destroyed. The "lake of fire" may also have literal meaning. When Jerusalem is surrounded by Gog and Magog what happens? ". . . And fire came down from god out of heaven, and devoured them" (Rev 20:9). I suppose it will literally look like a lake of fire has surrounded Jerusalem.
The "lake of fire" ultimately pictures final destruction. Death and hell (the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14,15). After that point in time, death will no longer occur, and no one will go to or be left in the grave. All will have been resurrected for judgment and will have either received eternal life or will have been destroyed through the second death.
With all the countries and jungles where people don't even know the bible exists, no it's not fair. But even with that argument it's still sadistic and deranged
why would he punish anyone eternally?
Sin was a crime against an eternal God. It merits an infinite punishment as it represents the utter rejection of His laws and being. Eternal punishment I doubt satisfies God, but is necessary for the crime of rebellion against the thrice holy God. We can never understand the gravity of sin, but I assure you, the Bible teaches the eternally grave consequences of unatoned sin.
@@mevangel9898 where do we get the idea thar God existing forever means you have to feel conscious suffering forever? That sounds like a made up thing
How did you come to the conclusion that its metaphysivally necessary for a holy god to sustain peoples vonscious experience so he can make it a hundred percent bad forever? I can think of reasons to punish people that have to do with real life but none of their foundational reasons would apply to "ok the punishment has to be the creator of the universe keeping you alive so he can punish you forever"
No, it doesn't. Read a LITERAL translation of the original Greek NT text. It does NOT teach that punishment lasts forever. It clearly states that punishment is corrective and lasts for an age. The vast majority of English Bible translations have significant translation errors. In the Greek text, Jesus himself describes afterlife punishment as "aionion kolasin". This means "age-long chastisement". An age is not an eternity.
Eternal punishment would be "eirgmos aidios" (eternal imprisonment) or "timorion adialeipton" (endless punishment), but Jesus uses neither of those phrases to describe afterlife punishment. The Old Testament NEVER mentions eternal punishment. Paul NEVER talked about eternal punishment. Jesus talked about age-lasting corrective punishment. What does that tell you?
For the first 500 years of Christianity, MOST Christians were universalists. Even St. Augustine acknowledged this in his writings. Only when later church leaders, who liked the pagan inspired idea of eternal punishment, started preaching from the not fully accurate Latin translations instead of the original Greek text, did the concept of eternal punishment start to move into the forefront. In fact, the early church leaders most responsible for pushing eternal punishment into the church (Augustine and Tertullian) couldn't even read the original Greek NT text. What does that tell you?
Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ paid the price for sinners on the cross. If the price for sin was eternal torment, then that would have to mean that Jesus is being eternally tormented. However, he is not being eternally tormented.
That aside, what does God being eternal have to do with the duration of punishment for sin? There is no logical connection. But hey, if a criminal getting punished more severely for a crime is a sign that the victim is more holy, then maybe we should start torturing all inmates so their victims can be seen as more holy. @@mevangel9898
So everyone born in the whole of the America’s, let’s say, between years 500-1400, wouldn’t have wanted to hear the gospel.
Really?
What scripture is this based on?
Romans 20 i believe
EVERY CHANCE TO LIVE IN PEACE WITH GOD IS TAKEN FOR GRANTED BUT NEVER ONE PERSON KNOWS THE PLANET IS SEALED AND JUDGEMENT DAY IS NEAR
Literally, making it up as he goes along 😂
Wait, is this video about ECT or General revelation??
All the people who use the man in Africa argument to disbelieve fail to realize that they themselves are not the man in Africa because they HAVE heard the gospel and are responsible for rejecting it.
WLC is not responding to the interviewer, he is responding to those gullible /ignorant enough to accept or believe his answer. Professor WLC please retire so you can speak you mind without the threat of your job hanging in the balance. You have a great mind.
This is in response so some ideas I’ve seen discussed below: question for Christians - do you think God has and will create every person that’s possible to be created? Or, do you think God chooses to create some people and not create others (therefore those potential people will never exist)?
Your question is a key that opens many doors to many answers that await. The original manuscripts says God will save "ALL", and many of today's scholars know that. Why would an All-Knowing God cook with one egg and throw 11 away? "Hell" is a bad translation. It is "Grave". A nether world of eternal torture is ancient pagan mythology. That Raccoon Rocket guy here in the comment section is brain-washed by the System. He represents Orthodoxy, which has been full of error for generations, but they want to "keep their seats". The wicked will be punished and the unbelievers will become believers and those who believed now will be rulers in the New Kingdom. That is what The Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic of the manuscripts say. But alas, only the minority know this. Hang on to that question 77 Megapixels!
1:21 Dr. Craig is saying here that the same African, who won't ever hear the gospel, wouldn't have believed it anyways- that's why he was born into a time and place where he wouldn't hear it. Wow.
Dr. Craig would probably also say that the starving African child deserves such earthly punishment from this god for the "sin" of not being a believer, for probably not ever being a believer even if that starving child heard the gospel. Think that sounds extreme? Well, being subject to eternal punishment in hell is infinitely worse than being a starving African child, and yet Craig's god is fine with passing such condemnations.
Who says sinners will stop sinning after death? We cannot change our status as sinners by doing this and that. Only God can change it by giving us a new birth. Eternal punishment for eternal sinners who never heard the gospel? Since God knew the end from the beginning, he already knew who will accept and reject him. Those who never heard the gospel are those who will reject him even if they heard the gospel.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
The idea of eternal conscious torment is unbiblical and needs to die a quick death.
Barry Anderberg pls expand with biblical references
@@grantearley4472 Walter veith
@@grantearley4472 No thanks. There's a metric ton of work on this already. To pretend there isn't so we can have a TH-cam debate is silly. I'd suggest you start with all of the resources at RethinkingHell.com. Watch videos with Edward Fudge, or read his book The Fire That Consumes.
@@barry.anderberg The Same could be said for the work on eternal conscientious torment so I don't get your point.
@@grantearley4472 Yep, you'll have to read them and see what you find most persuasive.
The point is not if is unfair, the point is ¿is it Biblical?
Don’t fret because of evildoers, neither be envious against those who work unrighteousness. For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither like the green herb. Trust in the Lord, and do good. Dwell in the land, and enjoy safe pasture. Also delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord. Trust also in him, and he will do this: he will make your righteousness shine out like light, and your justice as the noon day sun. Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him. Don’t fret because of him who prospers in his way, because of the man who makes wicked plots happen. Cease from anger, and forsake wrath. Don’t fret; it leads only to evildoing. For evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait for the Lord shall inherit the land. For yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more. Yes, though you look for his place, he isn’t there. But the humble shall inherit the land, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. The wicked plots against the just, and gnashes at him with his teeth. The Lord will laugh at him, for he sees that his day is coming. The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, to kill those who are upright on the path. Their sword shall enter into their own heart. Their bows shall be broken. Better is a little that the righteous has, than the abundance of many wicked. For the arms of the wicked shall be broken, but the Lord upholds the righteous. The Lord knows the days of the perfect. Their inheritance shall be forever. They shall not be disappointed in the time of evil. In the days of famine they shall be satisfied. But the wicked shall perish. The enemies of the Lord shall be like the beauty of the fields. They will vanish- vanish like smoke. The wicked borrow, and don’t pay back, but the righteous give generously. For such as are blessed by him shall inherit the land. Those who are cursed by him shall be cut off. A man’s steps are established by the Lord. He delights in his way. Though he stumble, he shall not fall, for the Lord holds him up with his hand. I have been young, and now am old, yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his children begging for bread. All day long he deals graciously, and lends. His offspring is blessed. Depart from evil, and do good. Live securely forever. For the Lord loves justice, and doesn’t forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and live in it forever. The mouth of the righteous talks of wisdom. His tongue speaks justice. The law of his God is in his heart. None of his steps shall slide. The wicked watch the righteous, and seek to kill him. The Lord will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged. Wait for the Lord, and keep his way, and he will exalt you to inherit the land. When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it. I have seen the wicked in great power, spreading himself like a green tree in its native soil. But he passed away, and behold, he was not. Yes, I sought him, but he could not be found. Mark the perfect man, and see the upright, for there is a future for the man of peace. As for transgressors, they shall be destroyed together. The future of the wicked shall be cut off. But the salvation of the righteous is from the Lord. He is their stronghold in the time of trouble. The Lord helps them and rescues them. He rescues them from the wicked and saves them, because they have taken refuge in him.
Psalms 37:1-40 WEBBE
What if God is right but the Bible is wrong?
@@mattr.1887 My point is: They bible teach destruction, not eternal torture.
I said in my haste, All men are liars.
Psalms 116:11 ASV
Here is my view:
-Heard the Gospel + Accepted Christ = Eternal life in Heaven.
-Heard the Gospel + Rejected Christ = Tormented in Hell for a very long period of time before being annihilated.
-Have not heard the Gospel + Would have accepted Christ = Eternal life in Heaven.
-Have not heard the Gospel + would have rejected Christ = Tormented in Hell for a very long period of time before being annihilated.
And you can use your bible to either support your view, or refute your view. It's a book of great vagueness if you don't take it seriously.
Could a Christian in the comments give me a Biblical reference to what Dr Craig is speaking of?
Where he says that "God will judge people based on the light that they have".
@NBA World
Sure thing!
Romans 2:14-15
"14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
Have any more questions, I'm happy to try and help :)
Also Luke 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
That said, I think Romans also goes on to say everyone is condemned by the law.
God will judge all human life. It is a promise and biblical fact. Jesus spoke of this and reflected in the Book of Revelation in the Great White Throne Judgment. Then the people who are not worthy will be cast into lake of fire. Symbol for destruction and categorized as second death, spiritual death.
No where does it say humans will be tortured forever in hell.
One Step Away Matt.18:6-9 n Matt. 25:31-46.. they will be cast into eternal fire/ eternal punishment...
@@ningshimlungleng5785 Thanks, so the Bible says there is an eternal fire from the lips of Christ himself.
Could the Christians above please answer this. This looks like it contradicts the point you were making prior about how there is no such thing as eternal hell.
Of course, and whether you're raised in a christian family with christian friends or if you live in china and only shortly hear parts of the bible doesn't make a difference at all, you're still getting condemned if you don't become a christian, becuse that's how the human mind and basic human psychology works. Oh right, God will fix it somehow by having accounted for that already.
That's when you get when you throw any plausibility out of the window just to account for your narrow minded belief.
0:58 The general revelation through nature and conscience seems to me to be a far better indication of God than religion or doctrine.
I'm not saying that doctrine is all bad, but doctrine is of man and can always potentially deceive you. There's nothing deceptive about the natural world, though.
"Since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," (2 Thess 1:6--9 ESV).
1:01 what are those general revelations ?
So people who live somewhere where the word of Christianity hasn't reached is someone who wouldn't believe it anyway. The complicated mental gymnastics required to hold on to this preposterous notion are mind boggling.
You don’t Go to hell for Rejecting God. You go to hell for Sinning. And by rejecting God your sin is just unpaid For… that was the entire point of Jesus coming.
The Bible says the moral law is written on our hearts you don’t have to be Christian to know right from wrong.
It’s like stealing from a store and the clerk says pay me $500 or you’re going to jail and a bystander says they will pay it for you in full… and you reject it.. you’re not going to jail for rejecting the guy trying to pay for you you’re going to jail rightfully so for the crime you committed you just chose to reject your Ticket out of the Situation
Why is there such a premium on obedience? Why is blood a sin cleanser? Has blood ever cleaned anything in history?
Well, there is this passage in the Bible where it speaks of purifying a house with bird's blood. If you think it works, I am sure I have some inexpensive beachfront property in Arizona for sell. :)
@@MyContext Praise the Lord, praise the Loraaaah!!
You should interview Chris Date from Rethinking Hell about annihilationism
He has had him on before. Sort by oldest videos, it's near the beginning of this channels' history.
Why would anyone be eternally punished at all? If your god is so just and loving?
Love, according to the Bible, 'rejoices not in iniquity.' Mankind has not loved God as he ought, and will receive due penalty. God gives justice to some, and mercy to others, and those who have been humble and received this mercy know that God's will triumphs over petty cavils by those who seek to challenge the "arbitrary" will of God. Does the clay have a right to tell the potter what is right and wrong?
@@mevangel9898 Wages of sin is DEATH...ethernal hell is evil and false teaching. Uncondicional immortal sould is not Biblical at all. Anhilation has way more sense. I recomend you to read book called "The secrets of Bible" by Alexander Medvedev.
He will judge only those who rejected the gospel
This is why your religion is immoral. Only those who reject him will be judege.
Does this mean the priest that forced his penis inside the anus of a child and who asks for forgiveness will be in heaven.
In the meantime, non believers who have not raped any child, will burn for ALL eternity
Yep. Makes sense. Your god is love.,
So basically by spreading the gospel, Christians are condemning people to hell.
@@TenTonNuke sin is sending you to hell.. Blame no one for it as God provides a salvation for you and it's up to you to accept it.
@@thereaper7682 No, thank you. An eternity surrounded by Christians sounds far worse then hell.
@@TenTonNuke it's entirely up to you whether chose to live or to die. God never put you at gun point to force you to believe in him either. If you think Christians are that bad then why don't you surround yourself with people in the Islamic countries or Satanists.
"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible."
Mark Twain
Worked for me. Animal and human blood sacrifice are beyond creepy.
And how does that change the promises of God that all human life will be judged? You don’t have to believe but that doesn’t change the outcome because truth is real.
@@rudai123 Creepy by which objective moral standards?
@@Ivann1005 Leviticus is a dumpster fire of animal sacrifice. Jesus was human blood sacrifice. Both are creepy, don't you think?
@@jaikee9477 from modern day's moral standards
If that is the case, what was the purpose of creating humans that God knew were going to spend eternity in Hell? Cruelty? Teach everyone else a lesson?
It says in the Bible that God will reveal himself what about that part?
In William Lane Craig’s view and position ( which is also Alvin Plantinga’s ), God creates and brings into existence people whom He knows will reject Him and go to Hell.
This is what he says in his Question of the Week, #546 Intriguing Questions about Middle Knowledge ….
|| What, prior to their creation, serves to distinguish persons in the mind of God? In Alvin Plantinga’s view persons have individual essences which nothing else shares. So each individual essence is unique. God decides which of these essences to instantiate and so which people will exist. ||
He also says in his Podcast, “ I Didn’t Ask To Be Born “
|| So it’s up to God; God is the one who chooses whom to create, whom to thrust into existence, and this is not unfair because this is a tremendous gift - the gift of existence, the gift of life. ||
William Lane Craig is either not mentally well or just plain ignorant or even dishonest not to see that God creating people whom He knows will go to Hell is just downright Cruel and Immoral !!
Christians will just follow William Lane Craig like dumb sheep and just not seriously question him on anything.
Come on Christians …. Wake up !!~ and start to think through what people are actually saying !!
I disagree with him and I do not follow him. I'm still a Christian though. I don't have all the answers but I'm searching.
This is one of the big problems with Christianity. Christianity doesn’t even agree with Christianity and hasn’t since the beginning. Throughout this post are bare assertions that are indistinguishable from opinions. I agree that it is immoral to create people doomed to be eternally tortured though.
Its possible that even though God created someone who knew would go to hell that that indivual would bring forth a life that wasnt going to hell. God always waits for evil to consume to the point that no good can come from it before destroying evil which can be seen throughout the bible for example noahs flood or the tribe who sacrifices babies to moloch. Either way its still the indivual fault for their actions thus their burden to bear. God uses everything he can for good then tosses the rest out like he always had. Cant get mad at God for that. We all have a choice to go with God or reject Him.
@@maow9240 I am currently speaking to another Christian in another thread who disagrees with you. Why don't you guys figure it out and get back to the rest of us.
Isn't god omnipotent, omnibenevolent omnipresent and omniscient? Wouldn't god doing "everything he can" mean that it just happens? I know you are going to say something about free will but I thought I would ask.
@@maow9240 On your position, God wilfully creates people whom He knows will suffer for all of Eternity Future for the sake of other people whom God knows will spend an Eternity Future with Him.
If you honestly can’t see how God is being Cruel to Billions of people by creating them ( knowing that they will suffer and be in torment for all of Eternity Future ) then you’re not a mentally well person.
There is No possible way that God is Morally Perfect on your position. Rather, on your position, God is the Ultimate Evil !!
What do I think? Well, the Goths heard the Gospel, but they were of Arian Christianity, they didn't belong to Latin or Greek Christianity. See what I think at one time (200s to 400s AD) there was Latin Christianity (Roman Catholicism), Greek Christianity (Eastern Orthodox), Eastern Christianity(Oriental Orthodox, and Nestorian Christianity) Arian Christianity (Gothic and Armenian Christianity). So as you see they heard the gospel but it was not completely unified in beliefs. Well, you say that east and west were still in communion but the east didn't accept Augustine's views. Then Arians and Nestorians were considered heretics, but these people were the only ones acting in the far east to spread the Gospel. So Protestant Christianity didn't exist at this point in time, and Protestant Christianity descends from Latin Christianity or Roman Catholicism. See it is the no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic church myth because if there wasn't then the Roman Catholics left a lot unconverted.
You did your homework. ~S
God sending people to hell who never heard of Jesus is morally bankrupt. Also, those who lived before Jesus, what is he saying, they had to believe in some God? Trust some god? Why could they not do this today? Christian universalism is the only answer to all of this, that God gives them a chance in eternity to accept Jesus, we already have Jesus showing Himself to people all around the world in dreams and visions and near death experiences, why not in total death experiences? The Bible no where ways you have to accept Jesus before you die, it says the gospel was preached to the dead, God says He wants all saved, He says all will one day eventually BE saved, nothing is impossible with God, mercy triumphs over judgement, His mercy endures forever, His wrath is but for a moment, the good shepherd seeks the one lost UNTIL He finds them, God is love...
I’m inclined to agree with you and hope you are right but my objection to total universalism is the hitlers, Stalin’s Maos, etc of the world. Some people in my view are totally damned rightly so. I would love to hear what you think about the idea that certain people go to hell if u read this.
Sometimes apologetics sounds like fans trying to apply retroactive continuity to their favorite science fiction canon.
Ezekiel 3:16-19, although in a somewhat different context, would seem to imply that the heathen who have not heard the Gospel will be damned, and that God would blame the faithful for this to the extent that they could have warned them, but failed to do so. The notion that the righteous heathen are saved makes it cruel to spread the Gospel, because any rational person will naturally dismiss the Gospel as just another fairy tale.
Regardless of what the bible indirectly says about the issue if there's an all reasonable God then his decisions would be reasonable i.e someone who couldn't possibly hear of the gospel would be judged accordingly.
@@theintelligentmilkjug944 Yes, it stands to reason that an all reasonable god would make all reasonable decisions - but God of the Bible is demonstrably not an all reasonable god.
@@itskarl7575 I agree that in some points in the Bible it seems contradictory to God's nature. I would also like to add that I haven't read as much as the Bible as I should for calling myself a Christian (so perhaps I shouldn't be engaging in this argument). However, let's say a biblical scholar can soundly justify the actions of God in the Bible. What would be wrong in believing such a God?
Yeah, but what if nature’s revelation informs one that the YHWH/Jesus stories are false?
1:21 So really no one can be held personally responsible for their actions, if your god has so ordained those whom he would save, to be saved by being born into a time and place where they would hear the gospel and become one of his believers.
What a load of rubbish 🗑
So if we stop teaching the Bible and instead simple morality, then people will be saved anyway without the need to actually abide specifically the Bible? That's a pretty good loop-hole right there. Too bad so many people are made aware of God's message.
You can just feel the sweaty palms of EV Christians when they discuss divine judgement and uncontacted people. If you lean too far towards Universalism, you lose purpose as an institution. If you lean too far towards salvation absolutism, you seem capricious and cruel.
So you have to thread the needle and develop general revelation, an extremely threadbare doctrine based on next to zero scriptural support to explain the fates of the supermajority of the human race in a way that seems kind of fair but also justifies your evangelism.
3 christians 4 opinions
I agree that God is loving and just, and will judge people according to their hearts. And God will not torment people for all of eternity. The biblical evidence overwhelmingly supports the notion the unbelievers will be destroyed in hell, rather than tormented forever. Read more here: www.gentlegod.org.
I must whole heartedly disagree with you. Your notion implies annihilation. Scripture teaches other wise. If hell was a mere con and disappear then why did Jesus preach on it as much as he did? Jesus could have been like you die in your sins and then your wiped from all exiestence. Hell is eternal. Despite man's claims Jesus said otherwise. Scripture teaches hell is eternal and we don't just poof disappear. That's not bibilical.
@@rocketraccoon3766 I know we've been taught that Jesus taught eternal conscious torment, but it's not actually in Scripture. In your post, you say, "Jesus said otherwise". And yet you didn't list any examples of Jesus or his apostles teaching about eternal conscious torment. Here are places where the Bible teaches that unbelievers will be annihilated:
John the Baptist said unbelievers will be like chaff in a fire
Jesus said that unbelievers will be like weeds in a fire
Jesus said that unbelievers will be like dried branches in a fire
Jesus said that both soul and body will be destroyed in hell
Jesus said that those who aren't saved will perish
Jesus said that this destruction will be an eternal punishment
Peter said in Acts 3:23 that unbelievers will be utterly destroyed
Peter and Jude both say that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah serves as an example of what will happen to unbelievers at judgment day
The writer of Hebrews said that the enemies of God will be consumed, and that God is a consuming fire
Paul says multiple times that unbelievers will be destroyed
In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Paul says that unbelievers will suffer eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord
In Revelation 14:10, we are told that unbelievers will suffer the full strength of God's wrath, in the presence of the Lamb and of the holy angels
For those who are looking for the truth and are willing to set aside their own cultural influences, the evidence for the annihilation of unbelievers is overwhelming.
@@TheHellProject Thanks for the welcome. What is your name?
@@reesewatt4120 you're promoting anmihilationism and the bible doesn't say that. These are metaphors. Take Jesus's parable of Lazuras and the rich man? Did the rich man just disappear? After death no he was tormented day and night.
@@rocketraccoon3766 What I'm promoting is what the Bible teaches. And I just listed 12 very clear passages that teach the fate of unbelievers as being eternal destruction. The *one* passage that you listed is not even about hell. Please check it out. The rich man was in Hades, not hell. And in Revelation 20, we are told that Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. Hades is not an eternally existing place, so the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not about the eternal state.
Please at least consider the possibility that what you've been taught is not biblical.
"the intellectual side of christian belief?"
If you believe that jesus cast devils out of a mad-man and into a flock of pigs, you demonstrate your willingness to believe anything.
WHAT WILLY WONKA WANTS US ALL TO SWALLOW:
1. Heard the Gospel + Accept Christ
= The Gift of Eternal Life
2. Heard the Gospel + Reject Christ
= The Gift of Eternal Life + Eternal Conscious Torment
3. Heard not the Gospel + "Would've Accepted Christ"
= The Gift of Eternal Life
4. Heard not the Gospel + "Would've Rejected Christ"
= The Gift of Eternal Life + Eternal Conscious Torment
There are three views on the fate of the unrepentant:
1) Eternal Punishing with no end.
2) Annihilation
3) Repentance through punishment and finally reconciliation
Which one do you think is Biblical?
#3, which was Orthodoxy for the first 500 years in church history--which most are ignorant of also. Of course God will save "ALL" because God wants that. Dad wants us all and what Dad wants, He gets! ~S
#2, Annihilation, because "for the wages of sin is DEATH", and not etenal conscious torment.
@@kimbanton4398
What do you make of the scripture that says the last enemy to be destroyed is "DEATH" then, which leads to Yahweh the source of life being ALL in ALL?
1:35 Literally laughed out loud at that. Craig should go into stand-up comedy.
There is no fiery hell where people are tormented forever. What happens to the unsaved?
The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 6:23:
⚫ "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life though Jesus Christ our
Lord" Romans 6:23)
There is nothing in that verse about eternal life in some sort of fiery "hell." Unless you
receive the gift of eternal life you will perish (after resurrection judgment) in what is called
the "second death" (Rev 2:11; 20:6; 20:14 and 21:8). After that second death, there is no
more hope of life or resurrection. You perish. You're destroyed. You don't exist any more.
It's the end of you. Here are a few Bible verses about this:
⚫ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his
place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10).
⚫ "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it
is that they shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalms 92:7).
⚫ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers
of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29).
⚫ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting
foundation" (Proverbs 10:25).
⚫ "Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of
the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency
mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever
like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7).
⚫ "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all
that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the
LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . . .
⚫ "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 4:1,3)
John 3:16 says the same: we either receive the gift of eternal life, or we perish:
⚫ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
So where does the fiery eternal "hell" idea come from? The word “hell” in the KJV New
Testament was used 23 times, in place of three different Greek words. Each of those three
words has a different meaning . . . and none of those three refers to a place of fiery,
perpetual torment. The three Greek words are:
▬ άδης
(“hades” in English); appears as "hell" ten times and as "grave" once in the KJV New
Testament;
refers to the place of the dead, the grave, similar to the Hebrew word "she'ol" in the Old
Testament
▬ γέεννα
(“geenna” or “gehenna” in English);
Appears as "hell" 12 times in the KJV New Testament; refers to a valley used as a dump
outside Jerusalem in Jesus' time. Constant fire and maggots there were sure to destroy
whatever was thrown in.
▬ ταρταρωσας
a verb, an inflection or variant of ταρταρόω; (“tartaroo" in English);
used only once: to describe fallen angels being put into a figurative pit or prison, to be held
in restraint.
BTW, You don't have to take my word for this. Look it up with online Bible study tools
such as blueletterbible.org.
Translators (especially King James Version, 1611) made a real mess when they used their
word "hell" in place of these three Greek words. By using "hell" they paved over the
meanings of the Greek words, replacing those meanings with their concept of an eternal,
fiery hell. They had inherited that hell concept, by tradition, from the Catholic church.
Over time translators have recognized this error and have often footnoted their versions
with the original Greek words, or even used the original Greek words in place "hell."
Young's Literal Translation (YLT), for example, never uses "hell."
Here's an example of Jesus speaking of "hell fire" in the KJV:
⚫ "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom
of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:" (Mark 9:47)
"Hell" in that verse is from that Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna," a reference to the dump
outside Jerusalem. The trash and garbage thrown there was sure to be destroyed by the
constant fire - "hell fire" - and worms (maggots) in the dump. *Jesus likened the fate of the
wicked to the destruction of refuse thrown into the dump: they would face certain, final
and irrevocable destruction.*
The "lake of fire" in Revelation pictures the same, final destruction:
⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and
whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake
which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
Those persons who are "cast into the lake of fire" are destroyed. They are destroyed
through death; specifically the second death, after judgment. They have no further hope of
life or resurrection. They will never "be" again.
Here's another verse where "hell" is from the Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna":
⚫ "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear
him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
So, when Jesus said the soul can be destroyed in hell, what did He mean? First, "destroy" is
from the Greek word ἀπόλλυμι ("apollymi") which means "to destroy fully" (from _Strong's
Defintions_ ). And "hell" in that verse is from the Greek word γέεννα ("geenna" or
"gehenna") which - again - was the dump outside Jerusalem. Jesus likened the destruction
of the unsaved to the destruction of trash thrown into the gehenna dump.
In Matthew 25:46 Jesus describes the fate of the unsaved:
⚫ "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
When a criminal is executed, the punishment is not "everlasting" in the sense of being
ongoing, perpetual punishing. No, the punishment is "everlasting" in the sense that it is
permanent, complete and final and irrevocable. It will be the same for the unsaved; they
will destroyed and that will be the end of them. Their punishment is finished and
permanent; it is not perpetual, ongoing punishing.
The words "permanent" and "final" never appear in the KJV; "everlasting" is often used
instead. It's a mistake to assume "everlasting" means an ongoing, perpetual process. It can
refer to a permanent, finished and irreversible condition.
Again, the "lake of fire" in Revelation is like the gehenna "dump" fire. It pictures final,
irrevocable destruction. Even death and the grave (hades) will be destroyed by being
figuratively "cast in the lake of fire":
⚫ "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
(Revelation 20:14,15)
After the final judgment and destruction of the wicked, death is effectively destroyed -
because everyone left will have received eternal life. And the grave (Greek _hades,_ "hell")
is destroyed: no one who received eternal life will die, and no one will be left in the grave
awaiting resurrection for judgment. Paul wrote:
⚫ "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)
Death will be destroyed . . . after the wicked have been destroyed through death and the
rest have received eternal life.
So, what's the "weeping" and "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth" Jesus spoke of? It's from the
mental anguish the wicked will have when they see others receiving eternal life and then
realize they, too, could have received eternal life were it not for their own foolish choices.
then that be exactly like what Richard Dawkins & all the atheists have been saying forever now: nothing after death (for most people anyway)
to them it's no biggie, case in point: most people who commit suicide, are atheists: they prefer oblivion to this life
other atheists like Hitler also commit suicide because they basically want to get away with their crimes (oblivion = impunity)
the most interesting among all those verses are the ones from Psalms & Job which is the old testament. on the other hand these verses talk about life in this world alone because _in the old testament there is no afterlife_ (cf. Ecclesiastes 9:5)
big problem is, what you said suggests the existence of a second god - a dark god - co-eternal & equal to YHWH. that would be extreme blasphemy
incidentally what are the "all liars" mentioned in Revelation 21:8? because if it means every type of lie in the legal/judicial sense, then this means every single human who has existed ever is sent to hell, and heaven is empty (you've told lies in the past right? even if just a white lie, as a kid). and since that verse does not mention exceptions to the rule, this means you'll be sent to hell even if you did believe in Christ
@@blackfalkon4189 I don't know why you think I'm suggesting there's "a second god - a dark god."
----------------------------------
"All liars" in Rev 21:8 is meant to include the original liar: Satan. Satan will be destroyed, and "never shalt thou be any more" (Ezekiel 28:19).
----------------------------------
You wrote *_"because if it means every type of lie in the legal/judicial sense, then this means every single human who has existed ever is sent to hell"_*
First of all, there is no "hell" place of eternal conscious torment . . . explained that in my original comment.
Second: God has mercy on those who come to Him in repentance, confessing and forsaking sin:
■ "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13)
Their past sins will be blotted out -erased:
■ "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord" (Acts 3:19, NKJV).
Outside of repentance, we do not receive mercy. We will perish, paying our own death penalty for sin:
Jesus warned,
■ "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Jesus, in Luke 13:5)
Peter makes it clear: come to repentance, or else perish:
■ "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
If we choose sin rather than repentance, we'll perish, not receiving the gift of eternal life:
■ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
-------------------------------------------------
You wrote *_"and heaven is empty "_*
You're almost right on that one. Jesus said
■ "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (Jesus, in John 3:13)
In fact there is no promise anywhere in the Bible that we'll spend eternity _in heaven."_ That's just another one of the many myths promoted by mainstream churchianity. "The meek shall inherit the earth" (Ps 37:11; Matthew 5:5) -a new, re-created earth as described in Rev 21:1-4.
--------------------------------------------------
You wrote *_"and since that verse does not mention exceptions to the rule, this means you'll be sent to hell even if you did believe in Christ"_*
I pointed out that there is an exception to the rule: we are promised mercy IF we'll come to Him in repentnace, confessing and forsaking sin. Otherwise we'll perish.
ps "believing in Christ" doesn't cut it. Even Satan "believes in" Christ." What did Jesus say we must do to avoid perishing?
Jesus is
■ "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9)
@@TheBibleSays because if literal Nothing is what awaits those sent to Hell (or whatever you call it, since you say there's no real Hell & no real torment basically) then this places them _out of God's reach_ (by your own admission, _after the second death even God cannot bring them back_ from nothingness). this implies the existence of a second god, equal & co-eternal with God, who represents the anti-thesis of God: basically an *_anti-God_* that embodies destruction & oblivion, the opposite of God who only embodies existence
like Angramanyu the opposite of Ahuramazda in Zoroastrianism
and such dualism of course is blaspheme to both jews & christians
_"we are promised mercy IF we'll come to Him in repentnace, confessing and forsaking sin. Otherwise we'll perish."_
this supposes never relapsing into sin. how do you achieve that if you're not sinless?
do you remember each & every single sin (no matter how minor & innocuous like a white lie told as a kid)? if you fail to repent for even one of those then it's game over
_"What did Jesus say we must do to avoid perishing?"_
believing in him, period. John 3:16 doesnt even mention repentance, in which case Luther & Calvin were right it's only _sola fide & sola gratia_ that counts (antinomianism)
@@TheBibleSays btw do you believe Mary was sinless or not?
Nice skirting of the *actual* question. You two only discussed those who are excepted from eternal punishment, *not* those who are condemned to it, under the (thankfully) fictional deity you treat as real. Your alleged god is *not* loving if it condemns *anybody* to eternal punishment-- especially considering the fact that its alleged omnipotence means none of it is necessary.
So if you have heard and rejected the Gospel, you will be tortured forever? Wow, what a barbaric and cruel god.
Hell is not eternal
Why? You have rejected goodness itself. Why is that punishment cruel?
@@mitaldirhotmail
"In Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."
Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."
So are you in disagreement with what is written in the Bible?
@@mitaldirhotmail how long is Hell then?
@@rjonesx Eternal torture for not believing in an unbelievable story? Really? That is cruel. No loving god would ever condemn a person to being tortured forever, for a thought crime.
It’s just if there’s eternal happiness
yeah lol bigot
@@noname0662 that was a poor rebuttal you’ve managed to prove you are the bigot while calling someone else a bigot with just a few words. Takes talent to be that bigoted
Craig presents a fair god. To go slightly off of Craig's central view, the problem for atheists like me is the concept of an omnipotent god who is also omnibenevolent and yet allows suffering. It is an inherent problem of logic.
Three O Five it only is if you can prove God has no good reason for permitting suffering
Three O Five The logical problem of evil has been long refuted. It is logically possible for suffering to exist and for God to exist in the same world. Suffering is a result of man’s free choice to sin.
As a side note evil, historically understood in the Christian tradition, is a privation of the Good. It does not have a positive ontological status. A helpful analogy is heat and cold. Cold is just a lack of heat, like how evil is just a lack of goodness. It would not be proper to say that evil “exists” in this understanding of it.
Since when is god subject to logic? When you have magic on your side, anything can be explained
Armand Babakhanian and what about the earthquakes and floods that kill innocent children? Is man also responsible for these too?
@Armand Babakhanian So you are saying that there cannot be free will without suffering? Do you think God could have created free will and never have created suffering, or does God lack that ability?
Shalom
peace and Grace be to you.
Thank you for this video.
*God saves everyone.*
May you find it in your heart to stop preaching these heretical doctrines of hell and eternal damnation.
That is not the nature of my Lord and God Jesus Christ. That is the actual AC.
A slander to The Lord our God.
Very inconvenient.
May God bless you with His truth. Amen.
His god punishes people for randomly selecting B instead of A. Libertarian free will.
Absolute stupidity.
the caption and the thumbnail are totally two different views....i would like to know, living 80-90 years on Earth and then hell for eternity? is that fair??
If God is a god of justice and he is a merciful as well as a perfect being..then eternity in hell is the most likely factor...maybe that's how this question can be answered
The vast majority of the first 500 years of Believers would agree with you, brother.
@@jobinrajukoshy5257 because God is just and can't let sin go unpunished
@@zjohnson8773 "Considering that God is all that is good"
Based on what? His own opinion? So he first decided that he is all that is good (which wasnt necessary, he couldve just decided on a better standard to decide morality than obedience) and then decided that the punishment for not obeying him (which he gave people all reasons not to) was eternal hellfire (which was also unnecessary and he couldve decided that there was no hell).
Is that really what you believe? And you really wonder why people think your faith is medieval indoctrination based on totalitarian thinking? Silly belief at best, Disgusting threat for democracy at worst.
@@zjohnson8773 No, moral subjectivism is not incompatible with classical theism, its your misunderstanding of morality. It cannot be objective. Also, you religious fundamentalists keep trying to poison the dwell by claiming moral subjectivism would mean that everything is just a matter of opinion and that thus no morality exists. That not how it works, moral being relative just means that morals are always relative to the perspective of the one whos moral value system you are looking at. Not that we would have to accept all moral systems as equal, since they are at least in our perspective not. There is no different for me thinking murder is wrong relative to my own moral values and me thinking its wrong due to an "objective" standard (which, again, cant exist). There is no one moral system we all share, also christians dont. If there was one and christians would have ultimate access to it, why do they have so extremly different values? And how do you know that you have the "right" view as oppossed to all the other religious fundamentalists? Because you are right in your own interpretation of the bible? See, thats why moral objectivity is impossible, every standard would be subject to interpretation and thus everyone would have a different standard. So where would the difference be in our values? There is none, morality is ALWAYS relative to an society, group or individual.
I got the idea that its his own opinion because it has to, someone has moral values someone isnt a moral value. And if you want to say he would be an object, well then congratulations he is now subject to interpretation, just like Evolution as a moral standard would be.
You claiming that something is logically necessary doesnt make it logical, how exactly would this work? Why would god be an objective moral standard?
No, obedience to god. You literally just said god is the standard himself. Your entire religion claims that we would have to follow god, since he is the moral standard (which is impossible, as said someone isnt the moral standard he has a moral standard) and that not following him would be immoral and thus we deserve hell (what a great view to have). Why didnt god just decide that you still go to heaven if you are just a good human being? Why would a human being that does good even in his eyes would go to hell just because he doesnt follow him? So you fools follow your cult.
Considering that there are so many religions, considering all the flaws there are in taking the bible literally, and how much we can explain without the need of god of the gaps like arguments. Yeah he gave us pretty much all reason not to. I mean seriously you think im going to hell because im skeptical and wont just take any religion at face value when i have no reason to believe in any religion at all? Thats not a good god, thats a monster.
Also stop trying to pretend its just a "theistic" view, no its not. The only theistic group that claims that you will go to hell if you dont follow god is religion. A simply theist wouldnt claim to know god or his punishments, or hell. This is a religious viewpoint, not theist. That sin is punished is not a theistic viewpoint its a religious one to control the masses.
And yes to believe to believe that your own views, in contrast to all other religious views, is the one right view who grants you a superior moral value system is dangerous as hell, which is why i call it religious fundamentalism. Its essentially what ISIS is doing in the middle east.
Romans 2:12-16 (KJB)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Romans 4:15 (KJB)
“Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.”
The ones who have not heard of the law or the light, are not held accountable, the same goes for children, and mentally handicap.
Any atheist that that has heard the Gospel has no excuse. Believe and be saved now. Jesus loves you.
Wow. Talk about speculative nonsense.
False! It is not by their work or "light" that they are saved.
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
And yet faith without works is dead
@@no-wun2889
Most Christians disagree with being saved by any kind of works. Is the bible wrong? That would be a shocker (sarcasm).
@@insanityplus2196
I would argue that that is because most Christians are ignorant of their own bible in various ways from what is written within it to the history of it. Belief is a weird thing, I wish we could understand the origin of bizarre human beliefs but that's a completely different conversation.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
@@no-wun2889
Saying belief is a weird thing doesn't excuse this blatant contradiction.
@@insanityplus2196 yeah. The author of James and Paul the Apostle were two different people with different perspectives. Their interpretation of God, Faith and Grace differed. People are people and what makes us unique is our perspective. The problem is just that we've taken these people (authors of the Bible) as authorities of spiritual matters. As much as I like the writings of Paul and the Book of James, they're not impenetrable. They're ideas pertaining to that which the mind cannot encompass.
It's a pity that a religion was constructed from a few mens' spiritual revelations. Idk. Sometimes I vibe with Christianity but other times I cant stand it at all. Its certainly flawed in some fundamental ways.
Of course eternal punishment is unfair, with a few exceptions. If you take a Hitler or a Stalin and look at the cumulative amount of suffering they’ve caused, it would be enough to last an eternity. Outside of that, living the life of an atheist while still living a somewhat moral life? There is no justification for eternal “punishment.” It’s incoherent. I’m not an atheist and even I can see that.
Jeff what separates Hitler and Stalin from you and I? On what basis are you basing these claims of what should and shouldn't be fair for executing this type of judgement?
Rocket Raccoon I can’t speak for you but I don’t recall wiping tens of millions of human beings off the face of the earth in the name of “progress.” The fact that you don’t see fault in making such claims of equivalency is troubling.
@@jeffrourke2322 what standard of good are you trying to make your basis off of? You need a standard that is unchanging that is just and that is higher than your own opinion. What is this that your making what should be and what shouldn't be fair?
@@rocketraccoon3766 you get to find out how burning feels soon
@@rightdoctrine3922 care to explain?
1:02 Okay so you are legitimately arguing that it is immoral to make people aware of Christ as you're adding an extra step to peoples' path to heaven.
Good Catholic answer👍🏽
Good mindless comment👍
Generally available in nature?
So, one does not need god.. but just need to believe in... Nature, and they will not be damned eternally in his hell?
Does WLC ever himself speak..?
No, he doesn't. Word salad
Kinda makes evangelism pointless, doesn't it? Also, under his providential ordering of salvation, doesn't that mean anyone born before the gospel was proclaimed would be banished to eternal torment?
No. The grace is atemporal
@@spectre8533 So basically the people who died before the gospel are saved by default?
@@royalwolf7603 no, they are saved by the faith on Yahweh's salvation. Jesus is Yahweh. Moses had faith on Yahweh, Abraham had, Adam had.
@@spectre8533 But how does one have faith in an entity they've never heard of?
@@royalwolf7603 they've heard about Yahweh's salvation. Jesus' sacrifice is Yahweh's salvation.
So, if you never hear the gospel, then you never get condemned, WHY THE HELL DID YOU TELL ME ABOUT IT
@G Will I was making a joke
@jay jay He literally said it in the video you just watched. and I agree, the Bible didn't say it.
@jay jay Yes, I'm aware of Romans 2. If you'd read the surrounding verses, you'd realize this chapter is talking about the judgment, not salvation. Reading Romans 1 shows you that the author is saying everyone falls under the wrath of judgment.
Inclusivism trivializes Christ's saving work. He said "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father except through me.
What WLC know, but does not let on, is that Paul often contradicts Jesus directly. He said "Whoever calls upon the lord will be saved", yet Jesus said "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will be saved."
WLC is a very experienced theologeon, and he knows the Bible inside and out, so he knows both the Hebrew theology and the Christian theology better than most people alive. He is afraid of his reputation being damaged the day he says anything about Paul. Most churches are followers of Paul, not Christ, Jesus defined a false apostle in a way that directly fits Paul.
@jay jay See, you have not even touched on the theologies of Paul and Jesus. Peter stood up before the council and said, in front of Paul, that God had chosen him to be entrusted with the Gospel of the Gentiles (remember the story of Peter's vision of the unclean animals the God cleansed in Acts 10?). Paul proceeds to tell people that he had never received anything from the Apostles (despite being present for Peter's delivery of the gospel) and that he alone was chosen to be entrusted with the Gospel of the Gentiles, after he sent the Apostles away (who do you think John was talking about).
Paul also taught that Jesus did not come in true flesh, but in something like flesh. This was something John warned that a false prophet that was 'already among you' would be teaching and that he would not listen to the Apostles.
There are many small passages where Paul directly contradicts Jesus, such as when he calls himself 'the father' of those he taught, while christ said not to call any many your father, and when he claims Jesus came to abolish the law, while Christ specifically said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Paul's 'gospel' was very different from Peter's, which was given to him directly by Jesus, and Paul claims his was given to him in a revelation. John spent time warning his readers of the man who would claim these things.
@jay jay I was a Baptist for 38 years, but I'm no longer religious. I studied theology and textual criticism most of my life, but I majored in biochem. I still continue to study theology as a hobby.
Christianity is very popular in Africa. Enough of this nonsense stereotype! Say some unknown place not Africa
Lol especially Nigeria
William Lane Craig exposes himself as a heretic. John 14:6.
Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean. So, let's pray for poor Willy.
And the other heretics--unlike what their predecessors did to ours.
When exactly is he contradicting or disagreeing John 14: 6?
Hello. I am an atheist. I define atheism as the practice of suspending the acknowledgement of the existence of gods until sufficient evidence can be presented. My position is that *_I have no good reason to acknowledge the existence of gods._*
And here is the evidence as to why I currently take such a position.
1. I personally have never observed a god.
2. I have have never encountered a first person account in which that person has observed a god.
3. I have found no accounts of persons claiming to have observed a god that can be verified for authenticity, accuracy, or validity.
4. I have have never been presented a valid logical argument which employed rationally sound premises that lead deductively to a conclusion that gods exist.
5. All of the 46 logical arguments I have encountered all have been demonstrated to have multiple fallacious or unsubstantiated premises.
6. I have never observed a phenomenon in which the existence of a god was an necessary antecedent for the known or probable explanation for the causation of that phenomenon.
7. Dozens of proposed and generally accepted explanations for observable phenomena based on the agency of a god(s), have subsequently been replaced with rational, natural explanations, each substantiated with evidence that excluded the agency of a god(s). I have never encountered vice versa.
8. I have never experienced the presence of gods through intercession of angels, ion, fulfillment of prophecy, the miraculous act of divinity, or any observation of a supernatural event.
9. Every phenomena that I have ever observed has emerged from necessary and sufficient antecedents over time without exception. In other words, I have never seen 24 any phenomenon (entity, process, object, event, process, substance or being) that was created instantly by the solitary volition of a single deity.
ALL of these facts lead me to the only rational conclusion that concurs with the realities I have been presented - and that is the fact that there is no good reason for me to acknowledge the existence of gods.
I have heard often that atheism is the denial of the Christian god. But denial is the active rejection of a substantiated fact once credible evidence is presented them. Skepticism (atheism) is simply withholding such acknowledgement until sufficient credible evidence is introduced. It is natural, rational and prudent to be skeptical of unsubstatiated claims, especially extraordinary ones.
I welcome any cordial response. Peace.
Mike Cordner per the Bible God has giving you enough evidence sufficient to understanding and knowing he exist. Belief does not change what is true. Be careful not to create a false image of God which I believe you are doing with your list. God says he will reveal himself to those that humbly seeks for him.
@@fatalwey8340 Thank you for your response. I have a few questions if you don't mind. And I hope you won't avoid answering them like all other Christians I've encountered. I will gladly answer any questions of yours. It would only be courteous to reciprocate, wouldn't you agree? I will number the questions for reference so you won't have to repeat them and so that it will be clear which question you are answering.
1) Specifically, how did you conclude that "science has proven that the universe (space, time, and matter) are not eternal, they all had a beginning...?" 2) If your conclusion came from a scientic study, what is the citation for the study that makes this conclusion (authors, article title, journal or publication)?
3) And if there were a beginning to our universe, how did you come to the conclusion that there was absolutely nothing at this beginning? 4) What evidence will you present that will demonstrate that this "cause" of which you claim is "space less, timeless and immaterial?" 5) Was this a scientific study? 6) If so, who were the authors, what was the title, and where did this study appear?
You state that "logic tells us you can't create something from absolute nothing. I happen to agree with your claim. 7) This claim would apply to deities (gods) as well, correct? 8) If not, then will you admit that this claim employs a logical fallacy called Argument by Exception, and restate that this claim isn't true after all?
I *_am_* earnestly seeking evidence for the existence of a god and I *_have_* watched several videos of Frank Turek speaking, but I have *_yet_* heard him presented any evidence whatsoever that proves the existence of a god or that the claims stated in the Bible are true. 9) What evidence do you claim he can provide that proves such?
I have asked 9 straightforward questions. I hope you will answer them.
Now I will answer you questions.
"How did everything come into existence?" I have never been presented any evidence that *_anything_* has ever come into existence (been created ex nihilo) so I have no reason to believe that anything has been created. Therefore, the question does not pertain to any claims that I have made.
"Is it [morality?] up to our own human opinion?" I'm not sure what you are asking. I'm not aware of any non-human opinions. Are you asking if a person's moral standard is their own? If so, my answer is yes. If that is not what you are asking, you will have to rephrase the question for my understanding.
"Why is it wrong for [you] to murder someone to take what they have for [yourself]?" It is wrong because it is improper to do so. In our country we have laws against both murder and robbery. A society that allows such detrimental behavior to go unchecked risks having the same detriments perpetrated upon them.
"Would Adolf Hitler not be wrong for killing all those people during the Holocaust?" No. Mass genocide is immoral.
"Who set the standard for goodness or right and wrong?" Each individual sets the standard for what is goodness. The society of individuals set standards of right and wrong through customs, manners, mores and laws.
"If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" I do not understand what you mean by that question. I am not doubting that Christianity is real (true). I am well aware that Christianity exists and have not disputed its existence. If I found good reason to become a Christian, yes I would become one.
I will await your answers to my questions.
@@onestepaway3232 What evidence has this fictional god given me? What specifically is it evidence of, and when was I presented this supposed evidence? And how did you come to the conclusion that this god of which you speak presented such evidence to me? Did you witness this presentation? And if so, when and where did this presentation of evidence occur?
I agree that belief does not change what is true. So you would agree that a belief in the existence of gods does not make their existence true, correct? If not, will you correct your mistake?
How is it possible for a list of facts which leads me to only one reasonable conclusion (namely that there is not reason for me to acknowledge their existence) lead me to create any image of a god whatsoever, much less a false one?
Mike Cordner that is a subjective statement. If you classify reality as purely subjective than truth doesn’t exist which you know is false. You know truth exist and is real. You can validate that every morning when you wake up. God gave you creation, conscious, Moses, prophets, Jesus and the Bible along with the 10 commandments as guidelines to live your life. What more do you need?
@@onestepaway3232 Yes. Isn't every statement made by a person a subjective one? What is your point? I have no idea what your second sentence means. Do you even know what it means? If so, can you clarify and rephrase it?
Yes, I know that truth exists and is real. One of those truths is that I have no reason to acknowledge the existence of fictional gods.
Have you ever witnessed any phenomenon that was created instantly by the solitary volition of a single deity? I have no reason to think anything has been created. Every phenomenon that I have encountered has *_emerged_* from necessary and sufficient antecedents over time without exception.
What evidence will you present that demonstrates that a fictitious deity gave me a conscious? What evidence will you present that Moses, the named prophets, or Jesus existed? How did you come to the conclusion that the Ten Commandments are a quideline for my life?
You have not answered any of my previous questions. This is typical of EVERY Christian of whom I have had a discussion with. I have always answered everyone of their questions, even those introducing falsities, fallacies, and unsubstantiated claims within the body of the question, such as you have done. Not once has a Christian answered my straightforward direct questions. And like a coward, you will not even bother to answer the questions above either. WATCH!
*_"How Can God Punish People for Eternity . . ."_*
The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 6:23.
⚫ "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life though Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23)
There is nothing in that verse about eternal life in some sort of fiery "hell." Unless you receive the gift of eternal life you will perish in what is called the "second death," after judgment. After that second death, there is no more hope of life or resurrection. You perish. You're destroyed. You don't exist any more. It's the end of you. Here's a few Bible verses about this:
⚫ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10).
⚫ "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalms 92:7).
⚫ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29).
⚫ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25).
⚫ "Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7).
⚫ "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . . .
⚫ "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 4:1,3)
John 3:16 says the same: we either receive the gift of eternal life, or we perish:
⚫ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
So where does the fiery eternal "hell" idea come from? King James' translators added it to the Bible by using their word "hell" 23 times in the New Testament . . . in place of three different Greek words. Each of those three words has a different meaning . . . and none of those three refers to a place of fiery, perpetual torment. The three Greek words are:
▬ άδης
(“hades” in English); appears as "hell" ten times
and as "grave" once in the KJV New Testament;
refers to the place of the dead, the grave, similar to
the Hebrew word "she'ol" in the Old Testament
▬ γέεννα
(“geenna” or “gehenna” in English); Appears as "hell"
12 times in the KJV New Testament; refers to the valley
used as a dump outside Jerusalem in Jesus' time.
Constant fire and maggots there permanently destroyed
whatever was thrown in.
▬ ταρταρωσας
a verb, an inflection or variant of ταρταρόω;
(“tartaroo" in English); used only once: to describe
fallen angels being put into a figurative pit or prison,
to be held in restraint.
You don't have to take my word for this. Look it up with online Bible study tools such as blueletterbible.org.
Translators (especially King James Version, 1611) made a real mess when they used the word "hell" in place of these three Greek words. They had inherited their hell concept, by tradition, from the Catholic church. By using "hell" they were twisting the meanings of the Greek words to conform to their concept of a place of perpetual, fiery torment.
Over time translators have recognized this error and footnoted their versions, noting the original Greek words, or even using the original Greek words - and not using the word "hell." Young's Literal Translation (YLT), for example, never uses the word "hell."
Here's an example of Jesus speaking of "hell fire":
⚫ "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:" (Mark 9:47)
"Hell" in that verse is from that Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna," a reference to that dump outside Jerusalem. The trash and garbage was thrown there to be destroyed by the constant fire - "hell fire" - and worms - maggots - in the dump. *Jesus likened the destruction of the wicked to being cast into the dump for permanent, final destruction. They would be figuratively thrown into the dump for destruction.*
The "lake of fire" in Revelation pictures the same, final destruction:
⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
Here's another verse where "hell" is from the Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna":
⚫ "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
So, when Jesus said the soul can be destroyed in hell, what did He mean? First, "destroy" is from the Greek word ἀπόλλυμι ("apollymi") which means "to destroy fully" (from _Strong's Defintions_ ). And "hell" in that verse is from the Greek word γέεννα ("geenna" or "gehenna") which was the dump outside Jerusalem, where fire and maggots destroyed all the trash and bodies that were thrown in. *Jesus likened the fate of the unsaved* to being "thrown into the dump," into "hell [gehenna] fire" for destruction.
In Matthew 25:46 Jesus describes the fate of the unsaved:
⚫ "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
When a criminal is executed, the punishment is not "everlasting" in the sense of being ongoing, perpetual punishing. No, the punishment is "everlasting" in the sense that it is permanent, complete and final and irrevocable. It will be the same for the unsaved; they will destroyed and that will be the end of them. Their punishment is finished and stands forever; it is not perpetual, ongoing punishing.
The words "permanent" and "final" never appear in the KJV; "everlasting" is often used instead. It's a mistake to assume "everlasting" means an ongoing, perpetual process. It can refer to a permanent, finished and irreversible condition.
The "lake of fire" in Revelation is like the gehenna "dump" fire. It pictures final, irrevocable destruction. Those persons who are "cast into the lake of fire" are destroyed. They are destroyed, through death; specifically the second death, after judgment. They have no further hope of life or resurrection. They will never "be" again:
⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
Even death and the grave (hades) will be destroyed by being figuratively "cast in the lake of fire":
⚫ "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14,15)
After the final judgment and the destruction of the wicked, death is effectively destroyed-because everyone left will have received eternal life. And the grave (hades) is destroyed, because no one will be left in the grave awaiting resurrection for judgment. Paul wrote:
⚫ "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)
Death will be destroyed . . . after the wicked have been destroyed through death and the rest have received eternal life.
Eternal, conscious torment is a fiery hell is not "justice," as some preachers would have you believe. No: it's both ridiculous and un-Biblical. Those who teach that God will mercilessly (and pointlessly) torment the wicked forever are doing major damage to Christianity. Actually, they're doing Satan's work, portraying God as a sadistic monster and making Christianity look foolish.
If all in needed is for judging the “light” then Jesus is irrelevant, moot and renders the whole theme of salvation thru Jesus unnecessary and irrelevant, what now?
Would you say the same for babies that have passed away?
ayechaben 7 exactly the same.
Tom Anderson 81 you are a sinner. That is why Jesus is relevant. You have transgressed against God’s laws
One Step Away
Would you be willing to say that to William Lane Craig who specifically said that many will be judged the their “light” even if they never heard? Can’t have it both ways. Either Jesus is the ONLY way and even if never heard will burn or what he says?
Tom Anderson 81 the great white throne judgement speaks that all people not in Christ will be judged for the life they lived. People who have never heard Jesus will be in this group.
No
Show me the verse where God will torture souls forever? This is false gospel. The Bible says the soul that sins will perish. The Bible speaks of torment, never torture.
One Step Away
The origin of torment was from Latin which was “tormentum” which is defined as ‘an instrument of torture’ to inflict physical or mental pain, now you are correct there is no verse that says”God will torture sinners” but of we took all the was taught on the place called hell how it is the wrath of God poured, and how It says Gods wrath is a burning fire(para phrasing there) I think we could come to the conclusion that sitting in a lake of fire for all eternity would be torture, not saying I agree with everything this guy says just trying to clarify the question you put up
FaTaLWeY83 the lake of fire is symbolic. Humans that are sent there as written as considered the second death, classified as spiritual death to further support the biblical teaching that soul that sins should die. The wages of sin is death. Those who believe in him will not perish but have eternal life.
The Bible does not teach human souls will burn for eternity in a conscious state. Not sure where all this comes from
What it does reveal is two deaths. 1 is physical and 2 is spiritual. Jesus confirms this as well.
One Step Away not sure if I understand you view yet, are you saying there is no pain for those who reject God and go to hell then the lake of fire after the great white throne judgement?
FaTaLWeY83 those who reject God will face the second death. If that experience involves pain I don’t know
William Lane Craig SWALLOWS ECT.
I LOST INTEREST IN APOLOGETICS.
ECT = Eternal Conscious Torment