(Pt 3) Hot-Sauce SAAB...High IDLE & Slow THROTTLE? ('93 9000 CSE Turbo)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- Well the 1993 Saab "Hot Sauce" 9000 CSE Turbo now starts and runs and even moves!
But there is still something funky going on under the hood.
At hot idle the engine speed is way too high at 1,400rpm, and if you punch the throttle it almost STALLS before revving up...hmmm.
Check Engine is flashing Code "#5" - TPS Signal?
There is some suspicious aftermarket wiring under the hood as well.
Can we figure out why the Saab is not happy?
IVAN'S PICO WAVEFORMS:
drive.google.c...
Enjoy!
Ivan
Ivan.
Because of the way you diagnose vehicle.
I finished up a 02 Camry. Customer said it went to a shop. They couldn't figure it out. They tried swapping abs module and no fix.
So I got the task.
Took me about 3 hours for me to figure it out.
I went to the local " Used parts warehouse" and got me one.
Plus the shop didn't plug in the harness to the module.
I reseated the harness.
Bleed the module.
And presto I got it fixed.
Then the abs lights would come on as the customer stated. That was the main reason for the diagnosis.
Next the steering wheel sensor was bad. He ordered one from Yoda dealership. I installed it. Did the sensor alignment task and presto, I got that fixed.
This task took time.
Next task brakes, rotors and pads.
Was a task, rusted on rotors. But I got it done too.
Customer was happy it's fixed.
I told him there are some other items it needs attention. Gave him the list.
One of my memorable ones was a Camry. I want to say a 1992 model. Car shuddered very badly in the transmission in the last 2 or so MPH coming to a halt. I got lucky by driving at dusk. The "R" on the gear indicator glowed ever so slightly. Pulled both reverse lamps and the problem went away. Brake light ground at left trunk hinge was broken and brake lamps were getting a ground via the reverse lamp bulbs. This fed into the reverse gear selector circuit and the car was trying to grab reverse gear. Fun times!
Thanks for all of your videos. Your diagnostic methods are quick and affective. If people don’t learn from you it’s because they don’t want to. Keep up the good work and knowledge.
Yes, your definitely right!👍🏽
Being a non mechanic even I can follow Ivan's logic. He is so methodical.
I’ve learned more in a few years watching Ivan than I learned in 50 years of trying to teach myself!
Truthfully Saabs are hard to work on. Not everyone is up to the task. Ivan is always doing his best to solve a diagnostic dilemma. Thank you, PHAD
Saabs aren't any harder if you know what you're doing and of course, know Saabs.
I won't lie, I would have seen all the custom wiring under the hood on an obscure rare car and tapped out.
Ivan is the man
Good job, i did a few tcs -> none tcs conversions 20 years ago as the onces equipped with tcs always had problems and was almost impossible to sell. Trionic 5/7/8 all uses the sparkplug/di cassete with help of ionization current to sense piston position/camshaft position. It also uses ionization to monitor knocking, missfires.
Ivan, i used to only drive newer cars. After many years on this planet i learned a beater car is more practical to building wealth.
And more fun overall! 😊
Lifes Employment should be lifes enjoyment! Looks like Ivan has achieved this in life...
I am attempting to get into this line of work too but there's no opportunities around where I live. Canada is a third world country, after all.
These 80's-90's car videos of yours are the best.
Ivan, the tenacity you show on figuring these systems out is amazing.
I can remember when I did the DOHC conversion in my 1986 model Holden VL Commodore which was basically a restyled Opel Rekord which was homologated for Australian & built in Australia by General Motors Holden & Holden adopted the SOHC 3 litre (RB30E) engine from Nissan in Japan, the engine was shared with the Australian built Nissan R31 Skyline.
Well,I built a DOHC version out of the 3 litre engine which became a Nissan RB30DE engine,it ran the 1995 Nissan RB25DE cylinder head, pistons,oil pump & automatic ECU although my car was a manual model.
It idled a bit too high because the signal wire for the neutral safety switch was disconnected so I connected it to ground so that it would idle at the right speed.
When any gear other than neutral or park was selected the Nissan ECU was commanded to open the idle air control Valve further so that the engine wouldn't stall or idle too low,the problem is that since the car is fitted with a manual transmission,the wire needs to be grounded so that the engine won't idle too high with the automatic ECU !
7 am. going to work. giving 20% off today on injectors because this is the first thing i watched
Conversions on these old SAAB’s and similar vehicles of that era were done crudely in many cases with just enough rewiring to try and fool the ecu into a “normal” function but almost always caused small one off issues. This was a fun case for sure.
Ivan stated at about 10:11 that it took him a while to wrap his head around the issue. Place your bets now on how long it took for him to figure it out. I would say every bit of 5 minutes. GREAT VIDEO!
Would really like to see all the error codes resolved. Check engine, srs, throttle codes, etc but can you even get a good used or remanufactured throttle body? Engine sounds so good for 200,000+ miles. Maybe the previous owner could not, hence the custom wire job under the hood. These 90's cars are having issues with getting parts now and probably 10 years ago, too. Great content!
I wore out the throttle body at 450,000 kilometers on my car, no flow data was availiable and no parts as it was a unit with the intake.
My wise mechanic made a special baffle for the idle air solenoid but the original problem was thought to be fuel related and he did many things to correct the idle speed.
What brought it up was an intake cleaning, because of this he did it again and it showed the worn piece.
I'm impressed. Most mechanics would not have touched this FrankenSaab with a 10 foot pole. I guess you're always up for a challenge.
Good sleuthing Ivan! I caught myself nodding throughout your video as you uncovered the truth. 1992 was the first year for Saab to use drive by wire throttle on the turbo 9000 models. It was frustrating for owners in the winter because the system was too intrusive and people were getting stuck in snow because it would kill your momentum. I think it was a couple years later where we could install a on-off button to disable in bad conditions. I believe it was model year 94 where TCS became an option. Also unless someone found a workaround base throttle adjustments could only be carried out with ISAT or the tech2 with the Saab adapters and software. So even if it had a working throttle body without the means to calibrate you were SOL. If you ever come across a 9000 Aero in good shape you should get one. Best seats of any car I owned hands down. Also the 9-5 Aero was a really nice car as well. Saab was 30 years ahead of the market where manufacturers downsized engines and utilized turbochargers to do way Saab was doing in the 80’s and 90’s. In 93 to show off their Trionic EFI system they plumbed the exhaust gases from a Saab 95 2-stroke into the intake of a 2.3 turbo engine and the exhaust emissions from the turbo were still cleaner than the surrounding air. Now we are chasing tiny improvements which cost the consumer big time in both the purchase price and the cost to maintain. Hopefully Chevron deference will roll back some of this needless and lawless legislation and put money back in the pockets of the consumer.
PHD......keepin the good ole stuff out of the salvage yards.....Great job Ivan
The camshaft position sensor is provided by the ignition discharge module.The ignition coil’s fire two at a time on startup until the ignition module detects which cylinder is on compression-this is why odd scope pattern on startup.Hth Jerry
@@geraldsweet3789 very interesting. But the CKP pattern was so inconsistent! I can't believe that it ran haha!
Pine Hollow Auto Forensics! 😬 Like an archaeological dig trying to reconstruct it's (sordid) past.
Ivan when they switched it to a cable throttle body they probably messed with the idle stop screw and throttle plate is open too much for the IAC to take control 🤔
“Very simple”! Only Ivan could say that in the 3rd episode of an electronics master class!
I kept thinking that to really delete the TCS and make that computer happy, just maybe, maybe a Raspberry Pi Pico programmed to supply some cheater signals. Of course that would take time screwing with code, but it's coming to that eventually to keep some cars going. Ivan is fully capable of it too.
Needs to start using the new TPS cover sheet.
Ivan. I'm half way through the video and Your melting my brain! I drive by an old SAAB mechanic in Newport News VA that has a complete graveyard of old SAABs! Keep in mind if You ever want me to inquire to source parts! I have know idea what He has!
Remember Ivan, Saab's known for their Jet Fighters. No Traction control, Maybe he did some Ice Racing. Ivan, if she goes with you, Who can you call for HELP?
This episode kinda gives me hint that in the 'mad max' event, we can get rid of all those effin modules. Leaving ECM as, usually, most durable module in the car. Going further... i can think of some young dude designing just harnesses extensions to get modules into location in the cabin. Cheers Ivan! There is some thinking process starting while watching your repairs.
Great series. It’s always interesting when you have to start to figure out what was previously done and if it is legit or a nightmare.
We need merch with a red outline of this car and bold stylized "Hot Sauce" in the middle xD
HOLD EVERYTHING. Let me get my popcorn before you continue this video.
With that O/12V Idle Compensation circuit being polar opposite, I keep thinking of using a 5-pin relay to flip-flop the input, but I think the issue is coming back to the TPS. If the computer is expecting an electronic throttle body, wouldn't it expect to see a change in the TPS signal as it controlled the idle? That might be our issue as to why we still have that Code 5, and the one thing that's different between the two configurations. Sadly, that would mean there's no way to compensate for it. Argh! :(
Still a really neat car to see! I love this era of vehicles, just because you could go on an adventure in swapping parts from different models to create your own custom configuration. 10-15 years after they were made, parts were both cheap and plentiful, and it made tinkering, experimenting and learning fun!
Just a thought but many years back on a Volvo 265 V6 engine with bosh FI , I had a similar problem with high tick over but found there was an air bleeding valve/ screw to adjust the tick over, this will have been the beginning of ecu control on throttle controls, just a thought that there might be something similar on this car as ruffly the area, great video and love your logic of thinking things out 😄😄😄👍👍
From memory timing is set from ionization of the cylinders firing for first 2000 revs. Must make sure plugs are correct with 1.1mm gap to ensure this process.
Turned the Saab sobb story around; well done sir.
The perfect PHAD case study. Thanks Ivan!
Just thinking after you and SD doing simple to advanced diag dealers and "real techs" should be able to do. Make a plate frame for those repairs and on video, advert YT, Biz, etc
Ivan you obviously like the deep end of the pool.
Thanks, most shops would take one look at that "custom" wiring, and decline, but not Ivan.
To me this would be a worth while candidate for an aftermarket ECU and a brand new engine harness. It's a cool quirky "performance" car with old difficult to work with computers. Haltech even has OBDII diagnostics. Then sky's the limits for performance parts and using modern TBs and ignition components.
I keep thinking this is the Audi and I'm looking at it and saying "I don't see anything that looks VW/Audi" and then I catch myself... Lol.
Yes, loved that audi, one of the most unique but regular/attainable classic repair series on all of yt.
Lots of desk and brain work spent on this one, Ivan! And those modifications only made matters worse. But the car pulls great. On to the conclusion!
Happy Saturday everyone!
Saturday already?! Soon you’ll be retired like I am.
@@Michael-yi4mcYes, every day is Saturday!
I think Rover made the engines..My 1977 99ems had a rover.
Clutch faced front and you could change clutch disc without pulling motor etc
Amazing cars in snow.
On one engine a CAT/ Perkins diesel the crank sensor had small metal chips stuck on magnetic pickup causing bizarre issues .
No one could find the problem.
I pulled it out cleaned off sensor magnet set clearance to reluctor and it ran perfect no parts required.
Indeed so earlier engines were made for Saab by Triumph later to become part of British leyland /latterly Rover before their demise,this engine is Saabs own produced with GM and a little bit of help from Volvo
Like you said it goes run it👍
@@gillgetter3004 I got it down to 1100 rpm by tweaking the throttle cable and stop screw 😉
Always amazed Ivan Always amazed at your work. 👏👏👏
Thanks Ivan. I find it kinda remarkable that you are able to become inspired when working on........well,....oddball/ugly vehicles. I do have some respect for the SAAB name, but cosmetically they've always reminded me of Aardvarks. lol Definitely an "acquired taste".
@@NVRAMboi haha yeah they do have a unique look!
It might be that the TCS light only switches off after the first application of the brakes (ABS system). It's like a self check routine.This was the case in my Volvo 850 (TRACS system). If it doesn't have the electronic throttle body it might not pass the self test routine and throw a code.
Great video. But you will need a SAAB TECH 2 scanner, if you want to diagnose and repair a SAAB. For example, the original Electronic Throttle Body needs calibration, which is done by ISAT or Tech 2 with early generation software. In order to diagnose and reset other systems such as, SRS & ABS. You will need Tech 2 as well. The engine coolant level was either low or the level sensor is defective. There is a saying that 'In Order To Fix a SAAB Car , You Will Need Another SAAB Car'.
The J-Tronic Injection on my old 1984 BMW 3.18 I after some years it would iddle at 1800rpm. . . My sister's Toyota Supre did the same passed 6 yeard old and nobody could bring it back to 750. . .
Love your passion for these older cars, Ivan! I have a 1989 C4 Corvette that I plan on keeping for a while... Crossing my fingers I won't need to bring it to you anytime soon! 😁
coming soon to PHAD, 1989 C4 corevette... 🤣🤣
@@throttlebottle5906 RIGHT?! Knock on wood!! 🤣🤣
@@badgerdave22 lol, you'll probably be OK and never need him, since that was pre-optispark ignition system(older than 1992), they held up well, with exception of simple to diagnose/replace parts, window/lock/light switches, wiper motor, starter, alternator. still when GM had decent lasting stuff.
@@throttlebottle5906 Yeah, I’m very glad I don’t have to deal with an opti-spark! The GM engineers messed that up! 😁
Mass Airflow Sensor Damage: P0101 to P0104 & P010A to P010D. After flashes 5x and 1x for engine misfire codes P0300 to P0305
I'v come to find that customers drive their vehicle every day. What a seasoned mechanic can feel and hear is different than the customer.
You Sir.. Are the Master tech.. Another great set of videos.. Excellent work.. Wish you all the best..! Al 😊
Don't forget the ecu goes into an adaptive phase if it is new to the car. Does all sorts of crazy things to the revs etc for at least 30 mins. Needs a drive for 20 mins or so. The TCS on these are notoriously unreliable and this looks like it has had normal throttle body and idle valve retrofitted
Thanks for that info.
Kinda crazy to think a car goes that!
Coffee and Ivan, it’s going to be a great day
Ivan, you should be working for the FBI. Great detective.
Dephia ("Détection de Phase Intégrée à l'Allumage") is an PSA version of the aystem in Saab, used to replace cam sensors. Peugeot / Citroen use an waste spark system, with two double eneded coils having a sparkplug at each end. 1-4 coil has an extra windiing for phase signal.
Coils fire by signal from crank signal. When 1-4 coil fires, spark ingites first at the cylider not having compression. If it is 1, the phase signal goes negative voltage when spark occures. If 4, it goes up. This way ECU detects when cylinder 1 is in compression stroke. No cam sensor needed.
It is useful to know that this kind of systems exist. If the phase coil is faulty or wire is broken, you have good spark but injection never turns on...
Hi Ivan, I’ve been enjoying your series on this 9000, I’m a big Saab fan. In the future if you ever need a scan tool for one I actually have a Saab ISAT tool and am located in Youngstown Ohio.
I feel like the reason cars are not fun anymore is that the young kids these days see driving as mostly a chore to get over with as soon as possible.
I worked with a guy who just got out of college, and he cannot wait for self driving cars. He believes that will be utopia.
I like to drive, so an old stick shift Miata to cruis on the weekends, maybe put the top down when it's nice out, good times.
Just something I was thinking about when you were talking about cars like this not being made anymore.
In DC circuits size and length of wire is critical. The crank sensor wires are much longer then the OEM would have been, which means more resistance and signal loss. When replacing any DC sensor wires etc., you should make sure the wires size is the same or larger and the length as close to the original length as possible.
I think I'd want to know what made the computer fill up with water first. There shouldn't be water under the hood. Is there a drain blocked somewhere?
I wonder if that high idle is due to someone messing with a idle air adjustment screw.
Durr my poor 79 year old grey matter has gone offline .
You earned your money on this one Ivan Bravo, Bravo 😃
Do not like that ckp pattern. It should have a regular repeatable pattern...there is no cam sensor so there is no correlation check. According to service info it should be 1 small and 2 large tooth/gaps. I know that the car runs, but i am concerned it might come back...🤔🤔🤔
Maybe I missed it, but did 'we' clean the throttle body? Does it have a mass air flow sensor? Throttle position relearn? I enjoyed the PICO autopsy. And you are the best I have ever seen on the electricals (re: Vicegrip GAaage). Just thinking basics.
It will be good to seal that ecu, somehow....
Lol you should shake the hand of the guy who wire to make it run to unload it
Locating critical computers under seats/on floorpans seems to be a uniquely European design flaw. Common on BMW etc. Don't see it as much on US/Asian vehicles.
Cause have no cam sensor it runs in waste spark and multi port "no sequential". Its gonna pulse twice per rotation
Maybe fabricate an aluminum rain shield over the ECM?
Keep the rain at bay
My thought was to add holes to the bottom so that rain drains out as well
Now it makes sense. The crank sensor ring is from a GM v6, that is why it has three different patterns. This is a SAAB mutt. 😅
Thank you for your videos.
Well it looks like Ivan did not have to go Rambo on this Saab!For 500 bucks and a kids first car, I would be happy with the results. Thanks Ivan!
Hello Motoyam. You are surely working on some tough European makes and models. You really have progress in your skills. Keep up the awesome and tough repairs. Have you seen Diagnose Dan. Seems like your working on a lot of European stuff.
A Saab is worn at 225000 km, let alone 225000 miles! I did see a rust hole where the strut is mounted in the engine bay. That is an automatic MOT fail here in Europe and very difficult to repair properly (so the MOT inspector is satisfied). It also probably does not meet exhaust gas regulations. This Saab could not be on the road here in Europe.
One of the worst cars SAAB ever made, you sir are a genius, love your work.
Can you make a 0 to 12 volt reference to feed to control the idle with a potentiometer while running
Flip the input to the ac compensation pin with a relay?
0V when 12V & vice versa.
WOW so complicated got lost a couple of times.
I got nervous when I saw that the car had been modified from its original configuration. Does anyone else feel the same way?
I can't wait till I bring my 66 impala to you for a tune up
Points & condenser
Gap some plugs
For those electrical bodgers out there:
If you decide to mess around so you don't have to buy the expensive part that broke then please keep the car until it dies.
It's your mess so you keep it.
Nice job Ivan.
Love these videos!
Whenever I do any "custom" work to modify my cars, I write notes explaining the work to my future self.
Would've been real nice if the guy who didn't like his electronic TB wrote up a nice explainer
Another save for the books . Nice work Ivan and enjoy Your weekend. It’s gotta be better than the last one. 👍👍🇺🇸
So the ecm from traction control left over from swap went back in after the flood and still ran the car.
This car missed the cash for clunkers crusher😢
Thanks Ivan!
Great job.
Brilliant content from an hat sauçe!
Ivan, they need you at Starliner.
This is why people should leave cars alone. It was originally built with a drive by wire throttle, leave it that way.
I prefer to replace cable type throttle bodies with DBW throttle bodies when using standalone ECU’s. Nice to have the flexibility in tuning!!
No factory turbocharged vehicles should be left alone, life’s too short to drive boring cars
@@GSRDUDE80 um, this car in the video originally had a drive by wire throttle. Someone messed with it and put a cable throttle in. And I meant leave it alone by not doing that.
@@Jonathan-bk3dq misunderstood completely agreed 👍
Good Work!
That's an awful lot of effort for a $500 car! Entertaining to watch, though.
Interesting that the fuel gauge pegs when you rev the car.
with what some people do with their cars..stupid modifications, homemade wiring, etc. etc it's a wonder the things run at all.
Noticed in part1 you had a Red and Black coil. From my experience working for AA uk if you have T7 electronics never mix red or black coils . T5 electronics you can. Probably wont help with all the issues you have with the car but just an observation .
I've had cars like that when pulling codes it's goes into a backup default with the dlc grounded when I pulled the wire it went back to normal weird.
Use to have a saying. This is like trying to take chicken s--- and making it into chicken salad. I also use to call these cars scabs. Use to work on these decades ago and now look at them as the engineers as marvels because they went out on a limb not copying others. These also remind me of Renault, fiat, Peugeot, Porsche, BMW all back in the 80's when we worked on doctors and hospital clients because our shop was only one in town that worked on foreign vehicles. I gained a lot of experience enough that I didn't want any part of years later and stuck with more common vehicles.
Found SAABs very, very easy to work in. Their manuals were second to none and every thing was easy to get to. Of course when GM took them over that changed and GM made a mess out of SAAB just like everything else they touched. I'll take working on European vehicles over domestics any day.