Shop Replaces Engine...and it Doesn't CRANK? (Hyundai)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2024
- On the way to North Carolina, I stopped by a shop near Gettysburg, PA to diagnose a 2011 Hyundai Sonata that refused to crank after a recent engine replacement.
It's setting a Transmission Range Sensor P0705 code.
Should be a simple diag, right?
Will it be a pinched wire? Maybe a loose ground? Lots of variables with an engine swap...
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Enjoy!
Ivan - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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The customer hired the right guy to figure out that problem!
@@lomaii2847 .. where is the hot girl?
No doubt.
These are the type of lessons you want people to watch and not experience. Nice job finally making sense of a crazy problem.
Long time follower. I run a mobile diag/repair business. I watched this video months ago. Today it saved me hours of diag. I had a local shop call me after completing an engine swap on a 15 Sonata 2.4l. Shop used the harness from the used engine. Engine would not crank after swap. No communication with any modules. Luckily the shop owner still had the original engine harness. Comparing harnesses, found 10+wires that were missing or different colors. The shop called today and said after swapping harnesses that all modules communicated again, and the engine starts and runs. Thank you for this great video and lesson. I was able to make the call to swap the harness in less than an hour.
AMAZING! 😎👌
That was amazing....! It's clear when an engine is changed that you can't assume the wiring is the same.... That is wild...!
Wow, I did one of these engines last year. It kind of makes me glad that the salvage yard cut the harness on the replacement engine and I had to swap the old one over.
They do that on purpose - I was told by a junkyard guy.
Back in the dark ages when I worked on tv's I got to the point I would not work on something someone else had tried to fix. Too much time and effort figuring out what the other person did so I could then troubleshoot the original problem. Similar to Eric O and aftermarket stuff.. Ivan, you have extraordinary skills because of your extraordinary patience.
That is a wake up call for the salvage yards ! Mechanic: "I need and engine swap up to 6/14/2010". Salvage yard: "All we have is from 6/15/2010 and later". WHO would have thought to consult alldata first? I feel for the shop...that harness looks labor intensive to change !
2 minutes Change the positions to the correct connectors
Hyundai/ Kia harnesses are the easiest to change
Crazy. Went from thinking tech data was wrong (which is perfectly reasonable) to lucking out that you had another 2011 in the parking lot to do some Air Force checks on, AND that the shop hadn't tossed the original harness yet. Awesome job man.
Ivan buy yourself a big umbrella to avoid the glare. Luckily the old harness was saved.
Anti glare screen cover
Your diagnosis skills are once again top notch. Even with a full diagram in front of me I only have so much confidence, but here you found a flaw with the diagram AND found it was a different harness.
Ivan finally goes 1080p👌👌👌
This reminds me of the three-part Mitsubishi Diag with Eric O, the one with the crazy O² Sensors. It's sometimes unbelievable how a wrong engine harness can lead you on an hour-long goose chase.
Good work, Ivan! (As always, of course)
Yup, that's the last time we saw a good swap/harness diag.
Yep, that was the first thing I thought of, that was a great episode with Eric.
These days you have to ALWAYS check for mid year updates. You can't just find the "right" year anymore for an engine swap.
Well the engine year does interchange it's the harness is different
Your fault finding skills are amazing.
When you started off saying same year engine, I thought just a pinched or unhooked something. It sure is getting harder to do a simple engine swap! Glad you figured it out!
This field of work doesn’t seem easy. Ivan is a genius.
Definitely not easy...but mostly rewarding :)
My head hurts watching you diagnosed the issue. Outstanding work Ivan. Another no parts required fix. Bravo sir.
When I look at videos like this, I know I made the right decision when I bought a 1988 Ford F250 7.3 mechanical diesel pickup as a "truck for home projects and motorcycle hauling". I swapped the motor myself with a 7.3 that was half the miles and better cared for. The harness from the donor truck came with the motor I swapped. The donor truck was a wrecked 1991 F350 which they had still been using the same harness. I re-installed the original harness and kept the donor one, so I have a spare if needed. The truck is so simple to work on compared to the crap today. A test light, and multimeter are basically all the diagnostic tools you need for it. Great job on this Hyundai! I hope my wife's new Ford Explorer and my Toyota RAV4 daily driver don't get stupid like that. Keep up the great videos!
Thats probably one of the best case studies up there in the top 100 PHAD which are consistently value for time spent watching.
This guy is definitely at the top of his game👍
Gotta love those mid-year changes... I bet that felt good to finally figure out! I'm surprised and also happy to see that Hyundai specified that.
Wow! That's crazy! Total respect for your focus and tenacity. Salute!
The outcome def was not what I expected! I would never have thought there would be an engine harness update within the same model year, but I guess it happens and is rare. I'm glad your stops end up with amazingly crazy and cool content like this!
One has Anti theft the other didn’t?
That opening was awesome, lol. wow -- the engine was changed and now nothing match's the sensors. My head hurts too, Great job Ivan.
Ivan, your positive attitude when facing a daunting problem is remarkable. Most people can find the bad part of something that was working. You on the other hand take on and fix stuff that has been modified by idiots! Your patience and attention to detail are almost never seen in the automotive area. Also the area you were working in and the outside conditions would have made most techs run for safer ground. Every video of yours I watch brings me closer to the realization that you are a very special tech. Thanks for sharing.
I think he is one millimeter away from super genius.
Another lesson for swapped engines 🙂 Excellent reasoning!
I have to say this is one of your best diagnosis videos to date, you are just amazing at what you do!
This is a diagnostic legend. I haven't as yet found any other vlogger that go into so much depth and explanation of tracing electrical issue.
I watch a lot of diagnostic and vehicle repair videos and you are by far the most cerebral, your forensic approach is outstanding. Isn't your father a rocket scientist or something, it explains where you get your smarts. Mere mortals like me can only marvel at what you achieve, keep up the good work!
That was awesome! Being another common issue that happens during eng/trans swaps is the trans range sensor being out of adjustment but this one was definitely not that easy! Great job Ivan!
You know Ivan. You are good and thanks for showing us your diagnostic procedures. After watching you and Eric O for the last few years, I finally think some of this is sinking in. When I heard harness change, I guessed it would somehow be the problem. Now whether or not I could have found it is a whole nother story! But I like to think I would have...eventually! You are a wizard! Take care. Jpol.
You are one heck of a diagnostician, Ivan!! My head would've grenaded 1 hour into this one, LOL! Goes to show, with engine swaps, ANYTHING is possible as far as potential problems. I was thinking a ground wasn't hooked up. I guess that was technically true, since the ground WASN'T THERE in the harness (among other things), hahaha! Holy crapper, that was a tough one!
Blew my mind. It's like trying to listen to my Pure and Applied Maths Teacher way back when. Makes no sense to me but I'm amazed by the outcome.
I put a rebuilt engine In my 1987 chevy astro van. It would crank, but wouldn't start. I chased wires for almost a week before I found the problem the connected that went to the distributor, and the one going to the fuel pump were the same and close enough to be confused, and connect' Well I switch them, and now was getting spark, but it still wouldn't run unless I sprayed starter fluid in it' I could hear the fuel pump run, but not fuel. This hadn't been a problem before the engine change. So I dropped the tank, and pulled the pump. There was a short piece of tubing that had a split in it after the pump. Because the pump had been running continuously the pressure had built up and split the hose. Replaced the pump with a new one since I had already dropped the tank. Yeah! if you don't screw up every once in a while, you're not learning. I should be over educated by now.
At one point I was guessing (sorry) that some sort of trans selector switch that came with the swap was incompatible with the vehicle. Ivan the super hero comes to the rescues again.
Great content.
The neglected pre inspection of compatibility and installation of the components from who ever did the swap, cost them money and time to do the diagnosis and a headache to Ivan!. Way to go.
WOW... OMG your diagnostic brain process has been finely tuned over your years of experience... wonderful to watch, thanks for sharing.
Way to go Ivan! That was some awesome detective work. Certainly enjoyed the live stream the other night that was awesome good to see you the dynamic duo back together again. Looking forward to more adventures, safe travels my friend.
This is why in the body shop we ALWAYS use the OG wiring and good components, especially when we replace doors with used doors.
It would be a kindness and a sign of respect if you are a shop, if you call Ivan out, you could provide an inside heated space. The work would likely go faster as well. Good video.
Actually outdoor lighting is much better and there's no lift in the way...only rain and bitter cold can get annoying lol 💪
Good thing you like Rabbits!! You spend enough time down the rabbit holes. But that was a good diagnosis and what makes rabbit holes fun and aggravating at the same time!!!! The reward when you make logical sense out of something that made no effing sense before.
Bless the owner's heart. He's a man trying to take care of himself and his family and Hyundai decided to make changes in the middle of the model year so he gets the shaft.
THAT WAS A GOOD VIDEO, tough problem to track down based on the diagrams. Took a step back and attacked from a different angle. Nice Job!
WOW.....WOW... AWESOME diagnostics and explanation.. Great find , patience and detective work to find the problem. I can see why people call you to solve the crazy problems.. Keep it up.
Amazing Ivan! Cleaning up other people's mistakes is complicated sometimes.
There we go, a trap for new and old players lol. In fairness to the shop who changed it, the odds of having a mid year change being that significant is unlucky! I understand why they would have used the harness that came with the engine, also everything plugged in okay. Though at the end of the day as harsh as this will sound, the shop did get it wrong. Hopefully they will have learnt and will confirm all the electrical components are compatible with each other and will work. I certainly see no fault with Hyundai here, their wiring diagram is correct, and there are highlighted boxes with the changes. All in all an unfortunate situation for the shop concerned.
Had a similar problem with our ‘11 Hyundai Sonata when our son had an accident. The shop that repaired it got a front corner suspension assembly from a wrecking yard from an ‘11 Hyundai Sonata. Problem was that the bracket on the strut that the sway bar link attached to was wrong. When you turned hard in one direction the link would hit the strut and pop the link right off the ball. Went to an auto parts to get the right strut based on the vin and they all wanted to also give me the wrong one. Finally found someone online that sold new struts that understood there was a problem. He had pictures of each strut so you could choose the right one. It was very frustrating to say the least. Seems like Hyundai had some issues with a change in the ‘11 model year.
Not with foreign cars, they are notorious for mid production changes.
ive been burnt by a diff harness before.. Every time I now swap entire harness or I look at the harness pinout side by side to make sure pins are the same. I have not made the same mistake twice.. I have seen a few pin differences before thats why i check.
@@turboimport95 Thanks for the tip! 15 minutes of comparing could save 15 hours of frustration t-shooting. God bless!
@@Peter-pv8xx where I live American cars are foreign cars, just saying ......🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Inspector clouseau strikes again!
Your experience is showing!
Your confidence using the camera and explaining things have greatly improved!
Enjoyed the ride!
Round and round. Having a similar car put you on the right track. You need a Sherlock Holmes hat and coat when you work! I thought you were going to find a bad ground terminal. You and Wes and Eric O at SMA make some very interesting videos displaying much t-shooting experience and deep thinking. Thanks a million for your channel.
Reminds me of that Case Study of you and Eric O years ago on engine swap car. You guys were pulling out your hair until you discovered wiring differences due to model year changes.
I don’t know how you can keep everything straight. I’ve seen industrial diagrams that were wrong, but this takes the cake.I would have walked away and had a beer or two. There are not enough people like you around. Your great.
This is one of the things you always question yourself with. Diagrams that are redrawn are prone to be wrong. Often times the colors do not match even if you use the VIN in the application to ensure you're looking at the right car. A lot of times they will have "integrated" wiring with descriptions if they are sport or basic, etc. When I see that colors actually match without any of them being different, is like a miracle lol.
As usual, top notch stuff. I just installed a used engine in an 07 Saturn. Map sensor was different. Had to solder new connector on old wires. Different placement of the pins. Also, new engine does not have oil sensor level switch. I have to connect those two wires together, or low oil light stays on. His situation is more difficult.
Holy crap, that was actually exciting to watch. Haha, couldn't wait to see what it was. Amazing diag Ivan, just amazing!
Loved the "picture in picture" effect of you reflected in the screen during the research! Very immersive!! 🤣
Nice work Ivan, staying cool and calm makes it look easy. Most would panic and say, tow it to the dealer, who would call Ivan, lol.
Ivan I guess when swapping engines it’s just not that simple to replace the engine. Everything has to be considered from wiring the build date to the model to the fuse box. Great job of troubleshooting. Thanks for sharing. 😊 Artie
Nice find. When you had the weird readings at the beginning I was thinking down those lines. I was thinking maybe it was a different sensor or plug because I had a similar issue a week ago on a 2019 GMC Denali. It was next to a shop that burnt down and everything on the passenger side was melted. I ordered all new harnesses by vin from the dealer and hooked everything up. After I hooked everything up alot of features didn't work (folding mirrors heated seats, blinkers for the side mirrors and so on). At first I thought something else was damaged because of how bad everything was melted. It had no fire damage (meaning no flames actually touched the truck) it just was really close and the heat alone melted everything. Even the tint on the passenger windows bubbled. So after going over everything the dealer sold me the wrong harnesses. Everything plugged in a fit perfect but the harness they sold me didn't have wires for the deluxe version I guess. So I had to remove everything big pain in my a$$.
The details! It's all in the production date. Another factor in the constantly changing works!
But the good news is you will not forget this!
I've have been burned by one of these before too. The 2 harnesses looked exactly alike at first glance. And even fit all the required connecters on the car. But just a few small wiring changes. As well as a couple of sensors on the engine had a different plug shape. Wound up costing me a few extra hours diagnosing the problem and putting the original harness back in and switching over a couple of sensors from the original engine. Why Hyundai, why? Anyway, great content Ivan.
Good thing he called Detective Ivan or he never would have figured this out.
Excellent video 👍. As soon as the wiring in the car doesn't match the diagram, i usually review the year before and after for a better match. Wiring diagrams have been a pain forever. Before the internet, we had nothing but PAPER manuals, like Mitchel and Chilton, and they lead me into the abyss many times 😆.
You lost me, but I had fun watching you diagnose... 👍
I need a Tylenol! My brain got fried trying to stay with that one. In the end, fantastic diagnostic. How fortunate there was another “similar” car just a few feet away at the moment.
been there Done that. Bobs rule #1 on engine swaps: ALWAYS USE THE ORIGINAL HARNESS! i swapped a 96 Taurus 3.0l into a 97 Taurus.. Left the 96 harness on the engine. looked all the same, or was it? AC would not work, OBD2 port would not scan, and a few other issues. drove me mad. I got the schematics for both models and figured out that ford had swapped a few pins around the harnesses between the years. by the time i figured it out, the core 97 engine was gone so i could not do a direct harness comparison. As i recall, i swapped 4 pins around on the motor harness and had to re ground the AC compressor differently. i follow your channel religiously and always enjoy the journey.
I just cannot see a majority of dealership mechanics today really understand wiring and the logic of troubleshooting like you do. Its takes a specific skill set, tools, and a way of thinking the problem through.
I'm halfway through this video. And something tells me the solution will be something that normally wouldn't be possible. I used to work at a shop that also did body work. And I used to get the craziest diags because body men would often pinch a wire, connect the wrong style bulbs etc. It's almost always the case when you get these weird symptoms that someone crossed something up. And the wiring diagram doesn't help quite as much because there are circuits connected that normally wouldn't be connected because someone installed something wrong. I once had a Kia. From the body shop. Turn on parking lights. The high beams came on. Turn on headlights. High beams off and parking lights on. Turn on high beams and all lights would turn off. Engage Turn signal to either direction and it would turn on all four. As if engaging the hazards. Well it turned out the body tech forcefully installed the wrong light bulbs. Which was causing a back feed. And this vehicle had a light control module. So that backfeed was causing all kinds of craziness inside the lcm.
Dumb ass body man.
I’m a 23yr veteran collision tech. 😂😂😂
Charge them for diagnosis and then make them fix it for free. How ridiculous is that, the headlight won't fit lets just force it
Yeah backfeed problems can really mess with your head for sure! 😆
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Only the first time, the second time you have craziness, you remember - ah backfeed - you've come to visit me again.
Hey Ivan, in the video with Eric on the twisted camshaft, to start with you wrote a list on the whiteboard of possible causes, then at the end of the video added 'twisted camshaft'. Suggest you publish a book of 'Symptoms v Possible Causes' based on your experiences. Bet you'd make a fortune :)
@@suttoncoldfield9318: That list would be incredibly long, and ultimately result in the "PARTS CANNON" being loaded with even more "ammo" by parts changers. Imagine the list for P0171. And look at todays case study; "wrong wiring harness". Do you suggest that with EVERY topic?
It proves what Keith said during the love stream, why he prefers original manufactures wiring diagram over any other aftermarket ones. It happened to me too finding mistakes in wiring diagrams.
My first question even before you started the diag is if they left the old harness on the used engine and did not swap it, big fail due to manufacturer fails. Ran into thei first with mid 90 3.5L dodge engines being completely dif in pin position if the options were not identical.
Really really good diagnosis Ivan, my goodness I was having some trouble following along on this one but I just kept rewinding and playing it again to wrap my head around the logic and your theories and proof. Really really good one!!! Thank you! Liked! Please have a safe trip back home buddy!
Wow, amazing work. I will say I have learned you have to do a ton of comparison. When replacing any part now a days. Just had new oiler bolts for a vvt engine missing 6 holes compared to original.. caused a p0019 and p0017 4 days to diagnose
Excellent sleuthing. It had me scratching my head with those odd readings.
Wow, Ivan! That was really well done. My head was hurting, too! You've proven it's not just the mind that is essential but accurate OEM wiring diagrams must be available. Nice job1
I’ve got burned a couple of times because of the redrawn diagrams. They are a nice feature because of their clarity compared to some OEM diagrams. They do add another variable to the equation which can bite you in the backside. Again, great job Ivan!
It’s not a redrawn diagram. The junk yard engine is the wrong application for this vehicle.
Lol ivan was frying bacon on his brain. I've only seen this once before myself and beat my head against the wall trying to figure it out fine job
wow, very good detective work there Ivan..
Who woulda thunk that they would change everything at model year change. Good catch.
Wow Ivan, that was a real head scratcher. I guess more info should've been relayed to you about the harness change which might've helped with the diagnosis. Great vid. Thanks for sharing !
Ivan - thanks for taking us along for the ride, so to speak. Using the screen to show data while outside will always be problematic - keep up the good work, and keep teaching us new things
Wow, great diag. Your patience always amazes me.
I just put a 2018 5.3L into a 2014 that had a 5.3L and had to change the injector harness high pressure sensor and throttle body because the 2018 was logic. The underhood FB, ECM, and harness for the engine was not compatible with the truck and thanks to having service info I found out what I needed to change before installing it. Truck fired right up and is still going. Been just over a month.
Imagine all the mid model year changes with the chip shortage.😳
I've been worrying about that same thing. Will the engineers be able to hide those changes within a module or will the effects become external and result in wiring, sensor, etc changes and possibly even subtle changes in vehicle function?
Future major issues more than likely.
Spock would be proud of your use of logic to zero in on the solution to this very difficult problem. Well done in the uncomfortable climate that you had to work in.
Actually it was sunny and warm compared to Central PA 🌞
Awesome diag. At several points I was screaming at my screen. Moral of the (sad) story: Stuff changes. And just because things seem the same, doesn't mean they are the same. FFS
Quite an interesting diagnosis Ivan! Thanks for taking us along.. Cheers!
Nice job man!! Eric o might be my favorite guy to watch but you're making your way up the list!!
Wow. That was something else.. I did not see that coming! Thanks, Ivan.
That was simply awesome. And so are you for that successful diag. Wow.
Yikes, logic and determination come through again, well done! 👍🚗
Amazing how you found this! Aggravating how many mistakes are also on Hyundai wire diagrams though.
Mistakes were not on Hyundai's OEM diagram, but the rewritten one.
I was a Toyota man and I have seen that before changing engines. I learned to always use the original harness with the junk engine and not use the junk engine harness no matter how good it looked. Looks can bite you in the butt real quick and cause lots of headache like you went through figuring out the crazy problem.
Always check engine and trans swap compatibility before diagnosis
I had the engine in my Skoda changed, and my mechanic was pissed that the junkyard had simply cut the wiring harness. I called the junkyard guy, and he said they always did that, to avoid cases like this. Turned out it was a good thing, because the "new" engine was a generation older than the one that blew, and wouldn't have worked with its own harness.
yep I got burned 1 time for this I now ether swap entire harness or if super complicated harness, I will compare side by side ecu plugs etc, Have not got burned since, I have seen car door harnesses have 1 wire differences i check those as well..
Toyota was bad about changing things from month to month making it very hard to keep up with it. That is why you always used the door sticker info to get the right parts
Those used harnesses are awesome for harvesting plugs to make TEST LEADS. Cut them up, solder on some banana plugs and give a new home.
You could do that test with 4 low current test lights. But wow what a find in the end!
I've been to the Gettysburg battle field so amazing!! Highly recommended to all!
I am going to venture a guess that the number of mechanics that could have diagnoses this issue in PA. is below 100, and of those Ivan is in the top 2-3……this was watching Michaelangelo paint and Einstein doing a physics problem…..Wow.
When I do engine swaps I always put the engine harness from the original engine onto the new engine.
Definitely the more reliable strategy 👌
What a great piece of detective work. Your legend is growing.
Ivan,
Great video and diag - thank you! Im not sure who was more confused: your customer or me!
Paul (in MA)
Wow!! Never been more impressed with a diagnostic video. U r great!!! Thank u!!
details details.....or better yet its the same motor...excellent diagnosis, shows patience and why it takes so long to diagnose...
Extremely interesting video and very well done. I would like to add a comment here that may help with something like this in the future, or possibly may have/may not have, helped with this one.
At 6 minutes 30 seconds in the video was paused and I looked at two things.
1) The DTC Code, P0705 and its' description and setting conditions (at about 2 minutes in I think).
2) The Transmission Range Selection Switch Table.
Looking at the table since there are 4 wires/signals, or one could say 4 bits, we know that there are 16 possible states that these 4 signals can be in, and no more. These states would be from 0000 to 1111 (decimal 0 to 15), decodes with most significant bit first, S4 down to least significant bit, S1. So it would be S4, S3, S2, and S1. Also we see the table only used 13 of these 16 possible states. Then, looking at the code and its description/setting requirements we see that it says (paraphrased) an undefined code was input into the PCM/TCM, which is not in the Transmission Range Selection Switch Table. Therefore, logic would suggest that one or more of the 3 invalid (undefined) codes must be inputting to the PCM/TCM.
The 3 invalid/undefined states are - 0000 (decimal 0), 0010 (decimal 2), and 1111 (decimal 15). Looking again at the table, and specifically at Park, Neutral, Drive, and Reverse we can see that signals/wires S4 and S1 both change state from Drive to Reverse. We see that signals/wires S3 and S2 both change state from Park to Neutral. Since the car will not start, and needs to be in either Park or Neutral to start, that narrows it down to signals/wires S3 and S2. Since both these bits must change between these two states, the issue cannot be just one of them. Since we know it thinks it is always in Neutral this leads us to believe that S2 is likely stuck High (1), and S3 is likely stuck Low (0). This would explain why it thinks it is in Neutral all the time.
Then video restarted and watched to the end. Later in the video Ivan looks at the Part/Neutral switch and gets into all this, and then the differences in the wiring. Great job figuring this out and one of the most interesting videos Ivan has posted. I hope this information above may help someone in the future with any issue that involves 2 or more signals contained in a table like this. 4 signals has 16 possibilities, 3 signals has 8 possibilities, 2 has 4 possibilities, and finally 1 has 2 possibilities.
Thanks for the video. I am sure it is appreciated by many, many folks. And again, both diagnosing and videography were very well done.
Note: I wish I could show the document I made, written in a tablet much like Ivan does, that shows the steps I went through to get this. Not a difficult or long process, but it would be nice to be able to post pictures in TH-cam videos, as I took a picture but cannot post it, and did not feel like typing it all out. It would probably answer some questions that may come up. Like if S3 and S2 are "stuck" as suggested they might be, it does NOT tell us anything about why. I wrote down in the notepad that I thought is was a wiring problem of some kind, simply due to the strangeness of the way the Transmission Range Switch was working and the fact that the engine was just changed when the issue started. I had no idea why they appear to be "stuck, if they were "stuck".
Again, hope this is at least somewhat helpful to someone.
I would think when a wiring diagram and vehicle under test don't match, one needs to pause for the cause and research document updates like you eventually did, and in this case, prompted after comparing harnesses of the same model year. That was the giveaway. Nice troubleshooting and lesson learned for all.
Nice job Ivan. Dealership says change the computer and transmission, then buy a new car.
Wanted to comment on the use of notebooks. I too write down all pertinent information when working on machines. Many times this has jogged my memory. Most of my notebooks are the required but never used notebooks from my kids high school!