(Pt 1) Hot-Sauce SAAB...DEAD for 6 MONTHS? ('93 9000 CSE Turbo)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- Oh we have a "Swedish Summer Special" lined up for this weekend!
This 1993 Saab 9000 CSE Turbo got dragged in after sitting at a local Euro shop for 6 MONTHS.
Owner said that it on some days it was a CRANK NO-START before he took it to the shop.
Now it's a complete BEACHED WHALE!
Some parts have been swapped or replaced, including a Crank Sensor and Ignition Coil pack.
Let's start from scratch and see if we can reanimate this Spicy European.
The battery is deader than a door nail...so we're off to a challenging start.
GOOLOO GP4000 Jump Starter:
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TOPDON TORNADO 90000:
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Enjoy!
Ivan
Swedish Saab tech here, if you need a replacement ecu i still have a few early Trionic 5 ecu's in stock and i can program the software on it to match your VIN so its plug and play once you recive the ecu. And as a few others have posted, the diagnostic port is located under the passenger seat, on the front side there is a pre cut square in the floor mat that you can open up and the connectors are there. you can use tech II with saab 900 / 9000 card with obd2 16 pin connector with an adapter to Saabs 10 pin obd connector. you can even use jumper wires as it only needs power (red), ground (black) and canbus high (green) and low (white).
Have you ever seen one retain water like this one?
@@jimbergen5232 I have seen one or two ecu's that had water damage when i was in the process of tuning them but that was more like condensation damage. Never seen standing water like this. Ive seen the cowl area flood a couple of times thought and as you can get a more intense heavy rainfall in the Usa then what we get here in Sweden i can see this happening if the drains are clogged.
Nice gesture. Glad to see helping hands from across the pond.
Thank you for the great information! I have Tech2Win on my laptop, but need the 10-pin adapter AND the 900/9000 software...is it available to download anywhere to use with Tech2Win??
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Ivan, I have a bin file for SAAB North American. Don't know if it will work because I never came close to a SAAB here in Brazil. I sent you an email with a google drive link.
Water cooled ecm wow she is fancy 😊
Water level looks low.😃
Not water, magic smoke fluid - like they use in fog machines.
@@russellhltn1396 🤣🤣🤣
Old electronics guy here. I would place the board in the oven on a low setting of about 150°F for 2-3 hours to dry it out. The CRC QD is great stuff. 90% or higher isopropyl alcohol is great too. We saved lots of expensive industrial electronics in the metals plant when we got flooded with 3 feet of water by cleaning with distilled water then QD & alcohol then baking.
Yes, IPA has an affinity for water. I also keep desiccant packs from new purchases just in case. You can "recharge" them in an oven.
@@major__kong That's a good idea too. CRC QD is mostly alcohol. I like conformal coating where moisture is likely. It reduced arcing and corona problems greatly in the industrial equipment. We had quite a bit of humidity containing salts from cutting fluid. The corona would be so bad that it would melt the sharp corners of aluminum heat sinks on motor drives. Parts of the drives had over 700 volts on them but the salts would effect everything, even 5 volt data busses. My boss was horrified when I told him I was going to start washing down the electronics with distilled water, alcohol and then baking them. It was already a well proven practice by time the flood came.
@@ohmbug10 Yeps. Good idea with the light baking mate. Absolutely. Water in an ecm though? That's bs ay! Those freakin things oughta be so waterproofed as to be submersible! Unless some dingus has been in there previously & damaged the seals or something.
Was getting ready to say the same thing. Alcohol will pull the water out from under any chips
You monster! leaving us with that cliffhanger! I say it won't do anything but becuase fuses got blown elsewhere, not because of the board.
That is actually the hydroponic Regen option🤪. Seriously, I know that car is happy to be in your shop. In the very best hands, with the very best chance of living again.....
Have a soft spot for these cars - my Dad worked for Saab in the 90's in England. Routing for you Ivan.
Back in the '70s I wanted a SAAB Sonnet. Fun little cars. The ones I drove had a German Ford V4 engine. And later I looked at a 900 Turbo. Never bought one though.
My brother had a Monte Carlo version of the old 93.
@@cm-hw5ww the first engine I ever stripped and rebuilt as a 14-year-old, under my brother's supervision I might add, was the ford V4 out of a UK ford Corsair.
Apart from putting one of the pistons in backwards, it ran great.
Routing or rooting?
Ivan could rename his channel to "Just Dragged In"!!!🤣
And another SAAB! Gonna need extra popcorn. 🍿🍿🍿😁
Never ceases to amaze me the number of comments that are "surprised" that they got to the end of the video to find a "cliffhanger" when Ivan clearly starts multiple video series with PT 1.
The Aero and the Carlsson were the full hot sauce versions of the 9000 around this time. The CSE is a high trim level version of the five door model, and this one has the highest power engine option for the trim level, which is around 195 bhp IIRC. Should be pretty brisk, they made quite a lot of torque. People always talk about blinker fluid, but it's great that you are exposing the dangers of not changing the PCM fluid often enough.
The diagnostic connector is just in front of the passenger front seat on the cross member (LHD cars). You can use a TECH 2 tool to connect to it with correct adapters. Normal problem areas: Fuel pump, crank position sensor behind the crank pulley and direct ignition (DI) cassette. That car is a trionic 5 with the red DI cassette and the black cassette is for later trionic 7 cars
Thanks Ivan. That such board level damage does not "put you off" on repair attempts speaks to both your skills and your concerns for "your people/customers". I am continually impressed with both your diagnostic skills and repair abililties.
Turbo Saab. I can feel the torque steer from here. Still love those old beasts! I can't wait to see how many more appearances the Audi makes before its own video. Keep up the great work!
Hey !!! That Module was "Conductivity packed" from the Manufacturer, Ivan may have just voided the water depth warranty, I think it was originally only packed with 3/4 cup of clean distilled H2O.
Red DI is correct for the 9000, the black one is for later saabs and has a different knock detection system. It is indeed Trionic 5.5 or 5.2 and those 8 pins on the board _might_ indicate that someone has used ad bdm programmer to flash the ecu. Furthermore, i saw a tcs light in the cluster, but no tcs valves on the firewall. The car migth have had tcs issues and undergone a tcs delete and thus require a specific ecu / flash
Elevating the reputation of tree shade mechanics!
Former Saab dealer tech. I remember when the Trionic debuted in the 93 turbo cars. The early DI cassettes had oil filled coils. We used to turn them upside down and check the oil levels. We used the ISAT scan tool to initiate the burn off function to test the secondary voltage. Cool party trick. Trionic was the first engine management system to feature a 32 bit microprocessor and the first engine to send an ionization voltage across the spark plug electrodes to detect pre ignition. So no knock sensors. Pretty cool stuff and with 200hp on tap and a 5-speed these were fun cars to drive. Also all 93 models had traction control which was a little better than the 92 cars with LH injection. They gave us a lot of grief at the dealership. Actually fun times at the dealership we were busy fixing these cars with head gaskets and timing and balance chains. Plenty of oil leaks to keep a tech employed.
Love it!
Remember when cars were this easy and simple to work on where you didn't have to take 1/2 the car apart to do anything? I miss those days!
This Saab certainly wasn't "easy and simple" by 1993 standards... Especially that fancy Traction Control system featuring an Electronic Throttle Body! 😮
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics What I mean is how easy it is to get at things under the hood. The electronics part on this specific model for sure was complicated before OBD-II standards were fully ironed out in 1995.
Another Paul from the UK here. I kept my old snap on scanner with heritage software. Do ya remember the 'keys' ?
It has all the old connections ta-boot.
You're talking about the good ole Snap on Brick....
@@ervinmq1955 yep. A had the heritage software on my solus also . Came in useful especially as it had most if not all the various connectors.
The original brick lol
He used to have one of those! I know the guy that has it now!
They are still around on ebay and the like bc the brick is still the best way to diag a lot of stuff from around that point in time
@@brianw8963 how cool
A family member has a Volvo with the optional CEM hydroponics option. No start after a heavy rain. I pulled it down from under the dash, blew it off with compressed air, and then sprayed it down with CRC QD cleaner. An hour later, allowing the battery to charge, success!
We used to refer to the cowl area on the 9000s as the "aquarium".
These were some of the best Saab's ever! Love these cars and it was before GM took over.
You seriously thought you could salvage that circuit board soaked in 1 cup of water, Ivan? You are correct, you have nothing to lose. GREAT VIDEO!
I''ve heard of blinker fluid.. but ECM fluid is a new one. :)
"There's your problem lady!" 😅
Ivan, water cooling is an expensive option with modern computers. Saab was ahead of their time. :)
A few videos ago, I left a comment I'll repeat here about conformal coatings. In one of my many past lives, I was the program manager for an effort that produced, among other things, the ALTIUS 600 "drone". It is actually fairly smart being jammed packed full of military electronics. This thing was designed to fit in a tube 4ft long and 6" diameter and be air launched like a rocket but slower. One of the reasons for this is to get below a cloud layer with a sensor - you can't shoot stuff you can't see :-) It was also designed to operate low to the ground in dirty environments. So this thing was going to get wet and sand-blasted in normal operations. They're supposed to be single-use, but in testing we'd use them about 5-10 times before they were complete basket cases from the shock load during launch. Space is tight in a 6in diameter tube, so we couldn't use normal methods of protecting avionics from water and grit and also cool them. Cooling air was brought in using a NACA inlet, and then we'd just let the air, with the water and grit, flow over the exposed boards. We conformally coated them, but we also kept spare boards laying around. So, yes, there are electronics that are purposefully allowed to get abused like this.
@@major__kong Yeah good stuff that conformal coating! Even multiple coats of it! I worked in a place where high voltages (10kV) were used, & often in moist environments, so cc was mandatory.
With your high 'G' applications, cc would also help a bit to 'glue down' components as well, & reduce their vibration.
Having not worked on or even seen 1 of these puppies since the late 90s, the 1st thing I thought to myself was "I bet the ECM has water in it". But HOLY CRAP I didn't expect that much!
Nice start to a new case study. I guess it looks like the ECM should have been installed with the hole facing down. 🤣🤣
This car is right up your alley Ivan
"I don't think that's factory fluid". Good one.
Maybe if it was filled with mineral oil and factory sealed it would still be running and would never corrode inside.
I also have the GT4000S. I kept it in my A cart and watched for it to go on sale. It will be cheaper on A than their own site sometimes. I also have the GT160 tire inflator. Best cost on that was 40 on sale at A, have to watch for the coupon though. Great little tire inflator.
That's crazy! Many years ago i bought 1.9tdi Seat with intermittent crank no start. The ECU was also mounted in the windshield cowl. I opened the connector and it was full of water and green crusties. I think the cowl drains were clogged and submerged the ecu. Thankfully i was able to clean the corrosion and the car worked perfectly after
That looks like blinker fluid.
Another Saab story
respect to you Ivan you start where the others fail
And that my friends is what separates a Saab from a tampon - The tampon comes with it's own tow rope 😮
...stoooopid
rofl
Hey I drive a 1993 Saab 9000 cse turbo 5 speed. It's ruby red with black leather. 168,000 . Love the turbo. It's quick and fun
You are amazing, Ivan. As you know I have questioned your decision making in regard to taking on these turds but you seem to "enjoy" them so I will do my best to not comment on why you should not even look at them (like every other shop).
Feeding the TH-cam algorithm is important for views. And views = money. If you're known for being able to fix anything, you need basket cases to maintain the reputation.
Yeah maybe but I think Ivan likes the challenge of fixing stuff nobody else can or will fix. I don't see any arrogance and he bends over backwards trying to teach his troubleshooting techniques. We need more Ivans in this world and not just in the automotive industry.
@@major__kong Ivan deserves every penny he makes outta TH-cam.
@@jws3925 Ivan's a scientist with a scientific mind - same as his mom and dad...
A guy that was teaching a first aid course I had to do (re fresher for me) he had one & I commented about him owning it he said that they were so cheap to buy secondhand that when they are done he just goes & buys another one,he also said the comfort level was really great as he did a lot of driving for his job.He also said that the ECMs usually crapped out.
"That's not good....."
Professional diagnosis. I've used that same response to customers many times when I discover similar issues.
Manual!! Been a week on my 95 850 T5R manual swap and loving it. Going to a great fix.
Awesome car!
@@volvo09 Thanks. The swap and mods were done with the help of Robert Spinner. He has videos on it.
Once again Ivan you have struck Gold on the most oddball projects and I think based on the fact that there is no RPM signal at the Tach and that the was only a cup of water in the ECM that you are 1.6 pints low on water and it must be water from an Artesian Spring from Sweden.......LOL. Classic Pine Hollow adventure and I look forward to seeing this one through and running once again.
One of only sporty European cars where you could sit in the back seats and actually have the room to cross your legs.
Or spread them 😊
The SAAB computer is sobbing.
The ECU should be mounted with the connector down to prevent moisture entering the ecu.
Wow, I was not expecting that! lol
Surely what happened is someone installed the ECM upside down? The drain hole clearly should face downward, and the lip around the connector area is supposed to serve as a drip-edge. Oops!
A parts-cannon SAAB story!
It might just work. I had water intrusion (cowel drains blocked so it would enter the interior through the vents) on an Opel B-Senator (3L 24V) and somewhat later I got ABS problems. Turned out the ABS module lives under the driver's seat and was flooded. Looked bad, but I cleaned it up, reinstallled it and never had any issues with it again. Bosch quality. So my bet is it will nicely fire up. As a side note, I suspected water intrusion the moment you mentioned it lives in the cowel... Sure enough.
I don't think I have ever seen a circuit board with barnacles. o.0
Circuit board would have been a good candidate for Water Dispersant # 40, and then the other treatments.
Wow! On to part 2.
Watch the water intrusion be an issue from it sitting in a shop parking lot for six months, and have nothing to do with the original problem! Either that hasn't been under water for long, or that PCB is made of otherworldly materials.
Others have mentioned it but an alcohol bath with a light brush not metal, then heating at a fairly low temp for a few hrs might help. It’s hard to get the shorts out especially under the chips.
well, I got something to look foreward to with my morning cup of coffee...
This brings back memories of the first photos back from the Titanic.
I had a new 1989 Buick and jumped the Diagnostic line under the dashboard and counted the fault code. It was stumbling on acceleration, because of a faulty EGR.
I'd either use a few hours of heat, or leave it a few days to completely dry under the ICs.
Aw man what a cliffhanger lol
Codes are read by the flashing of the CHECK ENGINE message on the dash. The long flash is the gap between the 3 codes. Don't use the black DI cartridge as it is the wrong one without the turbo knock sensor. Fuel pumps do fail around 180-220k - Can be a real pig to remove, but you do have access under the boot floor. Special tool needed for the huge screw holding it in. Someone has already reprogrammed the ECU - the pins are never installed as standard. As you have no security (VSS) on that model any other 2.0/2.3 ecu can be used as long as its from a manual trans.
A strange place to store the windscreen washer fluid, but you know them Swedes!....
Re: quirky 90's cars, I'm hoping one day someone drops off an Alfa Romeo 164. I never owned one, but I remember seeing them in Italy in 1990......very cool at the time.
i have baked a few water damaged ecus in the oven on rovers as they suffer the same from blocked drains and it has worked
93 was an Orphan Year version Also has the troublesome TCS which sent 90% of so equipped saabs to the crusher.
Thanks Ivan!
Ivan I've had huge success with cleaning nasty circuit boards in a Sonic Bath. Just use mild soap or sonic bath cleaner and run it for 15 minutes. Then rinse thoroughly with distilled water and dry. If the components are not compromised, usually the board will function again. For extra protection I may mist the board with Deoxit. Remove any excess.
Awesome story loved it. I was 15-16 had a 55 Chevy would drive it al over town, never had an issue with the cops but I would always keep an eye for the cops, if I would see them, I would pull over and stop, And let the cops go where ever they were going.
Didn't have a license to drive.
HERE WE GO 😁🥳 Got my popcorn and I made fresh tea this AM. I’m ready for this SAAB cruise Take me away Ivan 😉
You know the first thing I noticed when you were doing the underbonnet inspection was the lifting bracket was bent distorted or appeared to be. So I don't know whether that's the way it should be but it smacked to me of engine out activity.
I don't know. It was just the first thing that sprung to mind.
I later found out that this was not the original engine! 🙄
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics PHAD has got to be my all time favourite diagnostic channel. A must watch every time. Thanks Ivan.
Good Morning Ivan from Paul in a gloomy UK, hope the weather is better in the USA.
The weather here is great in Nantwich, UK - sunny and bright and 20° c.
@@WCSPete1 The skies in Bolton are as grey as a L.S Lowry oil painting. 😞 I just wish summer would start.
@@sprograt I got you Paul - Now I know where you are in the UK.
Holy smokes! I'm with you on the 5% that it may still work. It's not looking good.
Now SAAB is a memory. A former coworker had one...not sure which model. Her car was very clean and well maintained but i think she traded for a Lexus.
Been awhile, but I vaguely remember that red and black ignition cartridges are not interchangeable. Black in the truck, red on the motor. I think black is correct on the 9000, but don't hold me to it.
Good Work!
This is just the new water cooled version 🤣🤣🤣🤣
You need a battery robot they make roaming vacuums why not roaming charger! it drives around the yard from 7 am until dark charging all dead/low batteries...have not figured out the interface yet...a work in progress LOL
Great job! Can’t wait to see the next part! I miss my old Saabs so much! 😢
Have a bosch ecu for a 90s 2,5l m50 bmw that was installed in a boat that was under the water for about a week. The damn thing still works 7 years later. Just cleaned it up. There is some capacitors that has corroded of but seams to be for non critical stuff so how cares. It still runs 😊
Damn good cars, I know a lot of people who have a Saab 9.3 around, and my mate runs an aero as an everyday driver. Me ? I liked the 3pot 2 strokes.
Those old Saabs are soooo good looking
I'd think maybe submerging it in anhydrous isopropanol may pull all the water out. Then dry it out. It'd be worth a try. Wouldn't be any worse off.
OR
Maybe start with demineralized water followed with the anhydrous isopropanol.
Wow! Submerged ECU! Wonder if it was meant to be mounted the bottom side up, to avoid this... That type of electronic boards was very resilient, but you can't see what's under the chips.
I seriously doubt that proper function can be regained, but I've been very wrong before... Some persistance (and probably parts) required on this one, Ivan!
SAAB was always ahead of their time, water cooled ECU!
They put the drain hole for the ECM at the top so you know when it is full obviously.
Sarcasm noted, but some clown clearly mounted it upside down.
It's water cooled. Smart idea
My prediction. The timing circuit for the computer in the ECM is not going to come back to spec. If it works at all.
If you can't keep your computer(s) dry, you should not be allowed to be an auto manufacture.
Put a ECM/PCM break-out box under the hood and relocate the "brains" to a safe location inside the vehicle (not on the floor under a seat...LOL).
It is not rocket science.
My moms first vehicle was a 1972 SAAB 900.
She loved that car.
For the most part a happy car.
The Bosch electronic fuel injectors had a tendency to leak gas when the temperature was "just right". Months of back and forth with the dealership. Finally got a picture of it "in the act". Took several upgrades to the injectors to get it right.
In the early 1980's my sister rolled the car on a icy/snow covered road. Tough car. She didn't have a scratch on her.
Pure water has a fairly high resistivity and conductivity... on the chart not too far from hard rubber and glass.
If you are dealing with low voltages and the traces/pin are not too close together, it is not a given everything will be shorted out.
Anyway, parts of the ECM might still "think" they are happy.
Again, more likely the timing circuit for the ECM is not going to come back to spec. It will be clocking at the wrong frequency, If it works at all.
You were not pouring pure water out of the ECM case. Probably a healthy dose of zinc (from the ECM case) was floating in the water making it a "happy bubble bath" for those spunky (shorting) electrons.
I am on the edge of my seat waiting for episode 2.
Another Saab Story.
Cool saab-marine Ivan😂
It must have been mounted upside down with the drain hole upwards.
Possibly - buy why have a drain hole at all? Did they expect water intrusion from condensation?
AHHHHHHHHH! O..O never use a wire brush on electronics! a tooth brush yes!
Bert the scuttle drain/s are blocked up with debris and the ECU got flooded. Very common on certain cars over here, VW's, Skoda's, Audi's and some Renaults.
7:30 the Tach isn't moving while cranking and neither the Turbo gauge. Crank Position Sensor isbad or its wiring. The guy changed but doesn't mean anything also check if they forgot the o ring from the old sensor in there. It's supposed to be behind the bottom of the exhaust manifold
total cliffhanger... xD
Cliffhanger!! 😂
This car compared to today's cars has so much less electronics and is a huge challenge .Can you imagine a car made now being able to be repaired 30 yrs in the future .......no way !!
Nice e water, no acid rain where it was parked 😅
That's your problem lady,
Your ECM coolant is low
Remember, always keep your OEM computer fluid topped up and replace it at the specified service intervals. If you don't, it's possible the electrons will mix or pour out.
Very cool 90's car again :) Nice pair with the Audi.
Have seen for example Adrian's Digital Basement channel restoring Commodore 64 and Amiga, which were left outside for decades, exposed to the weather and elements, and their pcb's looked pretty terrible as well :D Still after some work, they started up with their original pcb's.
Isopropyl alcohol seems to be good stuff for cleaning this kind of dirty boards as it evaporates and leaves nothing on the board. Might need some resoldering though, and let's hope there's no blown chips or other components because of shorting in the water. Hopefully there'd be some fuses on the board to blow first.
I’m betting yes. Fingers crossed !