I really like the slow build up of complexity, as it lets viewers who don’t play yugioh learn along. It also serialises the videos somewhat, adding a natural narrative between the videos. Some real planning and consideration has clearly been given to this series.
If I remember correctly that was the main thesis of their first collaboration “If the card doesn’t say once per turn the user can do it twice if they have another card copy” and that was the main point being brought across to card gamers that aren’t used to a costless system because of gameplay loops it can happen. So, coming from that video concept, I’m not surprised he saw the loop.
There's a specific interaction in MtG that LSV was involved with back in the day - Where you would use a tutor card called Mystical Teachings to search for another copy of Teachings, then re-cast the first one from the graveyard, and have another one in hand to get two more searches. Realising that you could search for a second Teachings, and that this was CRUSHINGLY more card advantage, was what made the Teachings deck so good, and LSV was one of the guys playing it.
@@lostalone9320 God I miss that deck so much. 49 minute control mirror, then Teferi resolves after a 9-spell counter war and whoever cast it wins. Good times.
"Great news, it was a lot of fun, thanks to you and your community for being so welcoming." Class act, LSV. Looking forward to your character arc going from "Wow, this game looks fun" to "Was this card designed under the influence? And I don't mean drugs, I mean the designer was possessed by the Lament Configuration" to "I cut a notch on my arm every time I get Maxx C'd just to feel alive again", as Rarran's did.
LSV's not the type to get all that tilted on some of the horrible things a card game can throw at him. Routinely lsv plays some of the most powerful mtg formats for fun, where people are committing acts of violence worse than what some of the CURRENT yugioh decks are doing. He's been 'Yugiohed' in other card games for years, and I've barely ever even seen him get salty. Just shuffles up, and gets ready for the next game.
This guys' understanding of a card game so quickly is insane, I've never played Yu-Gi-Oh myself but hearing him just makes me feel like I can do it so easily too, it's empowering haha
TBF, luis is what you call ''generational talent'' in MTG. He's in the hall of fame and few people can say they've matched his achievements in the game. He's like the mTG version of Kobe.
@@kithkindeck It's funny seeing the Yugioh community shocked by how spot on he is at understanding cards in a game he doesn't play after seeing the exact same thing from the Magic community about Joshua Schmidt. Some people were just born to be good at cardboard mayn
He's possibly the best MTG limited player of all time. Limited is the non constructed formats where you build a deck from booster packs or a pool of cards. Evaluating cards well is what he does.
@@drago939393 Yugioh needs a true retro format who isn't the big umbrella that is Time Wizard. An established format: Goat, Edison, or whatever, but pick one.
It is always a treat to have LSVargas in these videos. A month ago I didn’t know who he was because I don’t follow Magic at all, but his card analysis just blows me away, even when he misses, it’s because there is critical information about how the game of Yu-Gi-Oh! has evolved that he is lacking. Also, Mudragon of the Swamp is definitely the coolest card in this video; there is just so much versatility to this card that its effect doesn’t make obvious. I know he wants to move onto other Extra Deck mechanics in the next video, but I would love to see Cimo show LSV the Tearlaments series of cards, just as a bonus.
LSV has said in the past that one reason why he got good at Magic was because he spent an unreasonable amount of time obsessing about implausible corner case interactions. Which is why he's so good at evaluating cards and metas. Because he's so good at seeing the additional value in cards that isn't obvious even if you play with them.
@@sebastianl4135 I mean he is literally in the top 5 magic players of all time, and there is a reason he’s in the hall of fame. He also has done card game design
LSV has an incredible ability to break down very complex subjects into the most simple terms. That makes him fantastic at both card evaluation and teaching.
Yeah, if he had known what link summoning was etc., he would have guessed more easily after dropping the thousand eyes with a instant fusion was good, but also he didn't know that the monster equipped would go to the graveyard instead of going back to the owner. Either way, really enjoyed the video. I do play a bit of Magic back in the day. So I can understand there is a lot of things that are different from Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh. My only Yu-Gi-Oh knowledge is from playing the pc version and watching Yugitubers.
Something to note for the Magic players in the comments: Dragoon being packaged with effectively two unplayable 7-mana vanillas as a deckbuilding restriction is certainly a factor to its power level. Sometimes drawing your Dark Magician legit loses you the game. Cards that could be argued to have weaker text boxes than Dragoon have seen play instead of him because their "baggage" to cheat out were actually good cards, sometimes relevant from the graveyard even.
I remember a replay where someone activated Invocation and the opponent used called by the grave on the Aleister in grave (in the hopes the Invocation now can't resolve) and they sent both DM and REDBD from the hand to the GY to summon Dragoon. Bro bricked on both of them and had to hard summon it ☠️
I’m surprised Cimo didn’t touch on the fact that Dragoon wasn’t good after verte ban because the red-eyes fusion restriction is so bad. He kind of played it off as dragoon was still insane after verte ban but was left alive solely as nostalgia bait. I think if red-eyes fusion locked for the rest of the turn instead of the entire turn, red-eyes fusion would’ve been hit.
Also something they didn't seem to mention (and I don't play YGO, just Magic so I'm not sure if this even works this way) but since you only get an instance of the effect for each vanilla monster fused, then cheating it to play could result in you getting zero activations of that effect.
@@GiuseppeGaetanoSabatelliso the way you can cheat it out still requires you to have at LEAST dark magician, since you’re copying the effect of fusion summoning instead of just special summoning the dragoon directly, so you’ll get at least 1 of the activations
@@GiuseppeGaetanoSabatelli Depends how exactly you "cheat" it. Using Red-Eyes Fusion requires Dark Magician and Red-Eyes Black Dragon so you always get the activations. The card that Cimo mentions copying the Fusion spell doesn't bypass that because sending the materials to the graveyard (or exiling them for cards like Miracle Fusion) is part of the effect resolution of every fusion spell so without the proper materials you can't fuse into Dragoon. Cheating the Dragoon with Cyber-Stein will give you 0 activations because it had no materials. It's still an untargetable, indestructible counterspell on a stick with high attack though so not bad despite not being the best choice.
LSV is so knowledgeable about just cars design in general and it really shines through here. Even though he got a lot of the ban/unbans wrong, a lot of the time it seemed like it was just missing context more then anything wrong with his card evaluations. I would love to see Patrick Sullivan do one of these too, he'd be great at it.
Something kinda important to have explained to LSV about Mudragon of the swamp, is the difference between hexproof and making something untargetable In MTG if your opponent targets your creature with a card effect and you use mother of runes to give it hexproof in response, the targeting effect will fizzle due to the creature being untargetable (IE you could use mother of runes in response to fizzle an opponents spell) Where in Yugioh, targeting is part of costs and if you respond to an opponents card effect with mudragon to make it untargetable, well its already been targeted so the mudragon effect effectively did nothing This forces you to use mudragon pre-emptively and since u have to use it pre-emptively, if your opponent has 1 targeting effect and u have multiple attributes u cannot protect them all by simply having the mudragon you have to choose ahead of time which attribute u wish to protect Especially with lsv's comparison to mother of runes it probably did factor in to his decision as mudragon would be much MUCH more powerful if yugioh had the same rules as MTG in this regard I know the main driver was to see super poly as the degenerate enabler/board breaker but a monster like mudragon forcing 2 for 1's with its effect can really swing those scales
yeh small nuance that makes it not as powerful as it seems but mudragon definitely has potential and it can also be used offensively too, i had the rare opportunity to stop a utopia double play mid combo with mudragon changing its attribute to light since the double or nothing spell specifically targets so if the opponent has to target their own monsters for an effect mudragon can be uniquely used this way or simply to prevent equip spells from being used since those have to target on activation in general
@@MansMan42069 Yes, but it depends what you mean. The most common type of card that I'd consider to have a "non-targeting single destruction" effect in MTG would be "sacrifice" effects. They can be something generic like "each opponent sacrifices a creature," which allows the opponent to choose any single creature to sacrifice, or they can have specific requirements like sacrificing the creature with the most power or with a certain ability or with the highest mana cost. The problem with those cards is the opponent gets to choose which creature dies, so they tend to be weak against decks that have lots of creatures instead of just one at a time. There are a few specific cards that get around "targeting" by using the word "choose" instead of "target," but they're pretty rare and generally not efficient enough to play. One card that sometimes sees play named Council's Judgement has each player vote for a card in play to remove from the game, for example. It costs too much mana to really be useful in a constructed format, but it gets around targeting restrictions because it doesn't use the word "target."
@@michaeldegrave5905 In terms of procedure and resolving an effect, when an effect says "Destroy 1 card", the intended card is not known until the resolution of that effect on the chain/stack. Compared to "Target 1 card; destroy it" where the intended card is known at activation/casting. Interesting that Magic doesn't play with nuances like this.
Note with Super Polymerization, that you can use materials from *either* side of the field, and that also means you can use both at once. So if there was a popular boss monster subject to being made into Super Polymerization fodder, you could intentionally run monsters of your own that would help fulfill the condition for that Fusion Summon, in tandem with the opponent's monster. On the note of Red-Eyes Fusion, it should be mentioned that there is a substantial number of "Red-Eyes" Fusion Monsters that this spell could bring out. Dragoon was far from the only thing you could theoretically play with it, even if most of the others are kinda mediocre. So banning Red-Eyes Fusion would also hamper the playability of several other cool-looking monsters. Tbh, I think Cimo should've shown him an example of Contact Fusion, too. Maybe something like Gladiator Beast Gyzarus, as a popular example.
I love the way his analyses cards not just on the mechanics but the meta analysis of players. Can totally tell he is a game designer trying to make his own card game based on how much value he put in the community having cool stuff to play and aspire to.
Cimo, I have to say you do such a great job hosting these "Guessing Banned Cards" type series. I've watched half a dozen different channels with similar videos (several of which you've collabed with ofc) but you do such a phenomenal job of gradually building up the knowledge and context of Yu-Gi-Oh for your guests. It's satisfying to see them have to piece things together bit by bit and it feels more organic to the new player experience.
57:48 LSV deserves credit for this, because he figured the entire shitshow that was cheating Dragoon, without knowing about the existence of Verte Anaconda, the biggest degeneracy ever printed.
@@Hurricayne92they just needed better main deck monsters for making it. I've always felt that cards like Halq should archetype-lock and be better if used in its actual deck. Also, they should retrain Red-Eyes Fusion.
It's because he plays Professional MTG for a living. Channel Fireball is a Magic team that plays Magic in tournaments and also sells cards so they see a lot come through them.
Well, Future Fusion at least has the decency of being somewhat restrictive with what it sends. Painful Choice is a normal spell that says "pick 5 cards from your deck, your opponent adds 1 to your hand and sent the rest to the graveyard", so it's a even more busted Gifts Ungiven (I think thatns the card)
@dudono1744 One thing I want to add for Gifts Ungiven. You chose up to four cards, and your opponent chooses two to go to the grave and two to hand. You can choose to pick two and have them sent to the yard. So, it feels a lot closer to painful choice than you think
Search your library for an artéfact , then search into your library a card and put it into your graveyard , in two turn put that artéfact in play But from my understanding it would be more " search your library for a créature, then search into you'r library créatures on the same mana color UP to the number of needed for the selected créature, in two turn put it into play and sent to the graveyard the créatures used as mana cost.
Now that I know that LSV is reading these comments. Hello Luis! I gotta mention that Thousand-Eyes Restrict is even more abyssmal to have in the game in old yugioh because it prevents other Monsters from attacking, which means, if you AND your opponent controls a Thousand-Eyes Restrict each, NONE can attack. It was the ultimate stalemate. Another interesting thing about Yugioh is that because we can attack Monsters directly, and have to do so in order to attack directly, there isn't really much 1:1 removal as in Magic the Gathering. Not every set has a Doom Blade. Our Removal in modern yugioh is tied to Monster effects destroying other cards, like Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon or something like Thousand-Eyes Restrict.
Dude, seeing LSV in these and hearing he had a blast is so freaking cool. I love the crossover in two games I play, and getting a player of his caliber to just nail analysis of unfamiliar cards is so darn entertaining.
This was a clever idea, pairing fusion monsters with their fusion spells. I've never seen that done before. Makes me think it would be cool to do one where you give people the cards in a combo *more generally* (such as scientist, last will, catapult turtle, or Substitoad, Ronintoad, Mass Driver) and see if they can figure out which ones got banned to get rid of it.
Just like rating cards butn instead rating combos. Another fun old school combo to show would be Gearfried the Iron Knight, Butterfly Dagger Elma and Royal Magical Library. It would be interesting to see if LSV vould understand how the combo would work just by seeing the cards with no other context.
TheOneJame does videos like that, He found that most cards weren't fun to review in isolation, So he started showing people archetypes to compare against each other.
One thing that LSV likely didn't know about with Mudragon-Mother of Runes comparison, is that in MTG, giving protection in response to a removal spell, essentially counters the spell; whereas in yugioh, if someone targets Mudragon with Imperm, responding with Mudragon does absolutely nothing - Imperm will still resolve, with Mudragon as a legal target, because it doesn't say "negate."
@@SackofDooDoo This, because targeting in Yugioh is a "cost", and in Magic is part of the effect, so you can answer the target there with a hexproof and nothing happens.
@@exiavaganza For the record, targetting in MTG is _not_ part of the effect - it's part of the casting/activation process. In fact, it happens _before_ costs are paid. (Spells and abilities fizzle when their targets become invalid because there's a rule that says so.)
Can we just take a moment to appreciate Cimo’s direction and ability to almost create a “plot” in the cards presented. Everything makes sense sequentially, and he has curated a very entertaining experience. Combined with LSV’s incredibly impressive card game knowledge, these videos really are peak.
Excellent video, I really enjoyed that you gave him multiple cards at a time trying to figure out which part of the combo was banned, plus it was focused on Fusions, nice and concise.
can you imagine an MTG progression series with these two? I mean granted LSV is in the magic hall of fame and Cimo has barely played it, so it might be a hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby scenario, but I'd love it anyway
red eyes dark dragoon, a absolute menace in the ocg because nothing could slay it. When it released in the tcg to much fanfare, it fell flat on it's face because there were many things that could slay it. Ice Dragon's prison, triple tactics talent, forbidden droplet and several more - tales from mega capital g
Seeing E-Hero Absolute Zero brought back some great memories from over a decade ago. I used to play an E-Hero deck that revolved around Super Poly, using my opponents own monsters as materials for my summons. And I also ran Mask Change specifically for Absolute Zero, sacrificing it to get out Masked Hero Acid. Zero destroyed all monsters while Acid destroyed all Spells/Traps, and the trigger was too fast to stop both so my opponents monsters would be destroyed regardless. I called it my ‘Troll-Hero’ deck.
I think the goon is more obnoxious than DPE, but you don't have to run two vanillas for it, as Celestial was great when dumped. Then the power creep was stronger than ever during Tear format, and when Anaconda was finally banned, it wasn't really a threat anymore. Having 3 main deck and 2 extra deck monsters for a floaty thing who pops cards wasn't that great after POTE.
@@exiavaganza It's still legal in Master Duel and it does basically nothing. The effect to make something a DARK is more problematic because it makes every Snake-Eye starter a 1-card Curious
From the first time LSV was on the show and even now, hearing this guy's insight on a game he doesn't play is so dang impressive Not even finishing reading out loud Cyber Stein's effect and giving us info about "enabling" cards was so cool
let wait until he see firewall dragon and how long it took for that utterly broken combo enabler(loopable card that cheat stuff onto play when combined with sac outlet, which enabled ridiculous combos, think the mana half of KCI as a companion with haste) to get banned, which also warped the game around itself with protagonist related immunity
This format will one day crossover to every single card game there is: Yu-Gi-Oh Player guesses if Slay the Spire cards are good, Magic Player guesses if Gwent cards are good, Pokémon player guesses if Dominion cards are good, Flesh and Blood player guesses if Balatro cards are good, Hearthstone player guesses if Uno cards are good, ... But I would actually love to see this format with players of all kinds of different card games, to see how different they approach and think about cards. Like I would love to see how a Yu Gi Oh Player looks at deck builders like Dominion or Slay the Spire cards, where playing your entire deck in one turn is not unusual for a good deck. Or the other way around on this channel of course.
As someone that has played hearthstone since closed beta I think youre overestimating hearthstone players there. Uno is way too complicated for a childrens card gamer.
I don't really care if he will guess correctly. I love the way he analyzes the cards. I would love to see you go through Ritual first showing the mechanic that went along Fusion early on and then get to crazy Extra Deck mechanics
I was hoping you show Louis Kitakallos and the whole Tearlaments, i'm sure he would super fast undertand the cards, but i'm not sure if he could have completely know how deep it Tear can go.
It's almost a cryme that cimo didn't show off Tearlaments. Also Dragoon was so much more popular in the OCG bc red-eyes fusion was so strong into Maxx C. Making it worth running 2 vanillas.
thousand eyes restrict equipping monsters is its own whole can of worms since it literally converts the monster it equips into an equip spell, this effectively removes the card from the domain of what constitutes a monster thereby stripping it of its monster card identity and forces equip spell rules onto it
For the most part, yes, but it is still a "Monster CARD" it is just treated as an equip spell. They've had to crack down and clarify this since they keep making cards that care about monster cards in s/t zones like Flamberge. Granted Flamberge isn't the "best" example since he cares about monsters classified as specifically continuous spells.
@@amethonys2798 yeh i know what you mean since they still count as ‘monster card’ just not as a ‘monster’ but this mechanical difference wasnt relevant until over a decade later despite technically being present back then is just wild because i dnt believe players back then realize the true implication of such a mechanic a better example would be deus machinex since he additionally triggers off of any monster card in the s/t zone currently being treated as a spell/trap for various reasons including pends and I believe another example would be the vaylantz boss fusion too
Whenever LSV comes back for synchros and XYZ, especially XYZ, and then Cimo shows him Dingirsu. I without have any doubts can see how good Dingirsu is and how it can compete against Dragoon.
Future Fusion's use case is intimidating to me as a Pokemon player. They've announced they're printing an ACE SPEC that lets you send 5 cards from your deck to the discard
@@Ms666slayer Would be a slaughter and would change up the build a crap ton. The'd play less Tears, probably less Ishizu, and can add even more nonsense to help.
The two best content creators for their respective games. One of which is a top 5 player of all time for MTG, instant watch and like!! Can’t wait to see how LSV crushes this analysis
I love how you change up the formula for him on how questions are asked and how cards are shown in a group to him because his card evaluation skills are off the charts
Something that's often overlooked is *Thousand-Eyes Restrict can equip more than 1 monster:* if Golden-Eyes Idol is banished or sent to the GY by card effect, it allows you to target an opponent's monster on the field and equip it to an "Eyes Restrict" or "Relinquished" monster. The reason this works is because the monster is being equipped by the effect of _Golden-Eyes Idol._ So if for whatever reason your Thousand-Eyes gets its effect negated, the monster equipped by Golden-Eyes' effect won't be detached (because the card being negated isn't Golden-Eyes).
I love this checklist method of showing people broken combos or broken seeming combos and letting them try to get into the developer’s head to try to figure out which cards need to go
I was surprised LSV got the Mudragon/Super Poly wrong. I mean, Mud is exactly like a Mom or a Skrelv. Annoying, but not much else. Super Poly can be removal fused with "Put a creature into play" with "Split Second" lmao, that's just nuts...
Everytime the subject of a "prize" card being legal in the game (Significantly rarer/hard to get + being good), I'm reminded of Nexus of Fate's stranglehold on Magic (and the fact that being only available in foil, just having it in your deck could open you up to "marked cards" penalties if the rest of your deck was normal/nonfoil lol).
Looking forward to a video showing Synchros and tuners/engines after this one, this format is so clean and highlights so much of what's cool about YGO, I think Cimo presenting it so neatly is what made LSV say what he said at the end about YGO seeming more interesting and deep
That depends on the fusion. Machine decks would use future fusion + Chimeratech Overdragon to bin literally every machine in your deck and then overload fusion into big giant dude to go for game
Deck thinning is. Not the reason the card is good. It's good bc it can send whatever you want to the gy and then get immediate value from that point on. If you're going to more turns after resolving future fusion to take advantage of the thinned deck, you probably messed up along the way
Showing all these different fusion monsters AND all the unique fusions spells yugioh has to get them out to give LSV an understanding of them is such a smart way to do this. It keeps the topic limited in scope while still covering a lot. I am really enjoying this series.
Having watched a few of these videos now, I'm really glad how the guests come across. They're all obviously switched-on, and it's cool to see another perspective on the cards. The big thing for me, though, is that regardless of how much they get right or wrong they always come out looking good - sometimes the incorrect evaluations are the most interesting, because they really show how big the mechanical differences are between the games.
I hope LSV returns the favour with a "Yu-Gi-Oh! player evaluates what's the better Vintage Cube pick?" video. That would be a great way to do a grand tour of MTG by leaning on the king of formats.
I really love seeing LSV doing these. I've played MTg competitively, certainly nowhere near as much as LSV, and since have picked up a casual interest in YGO. I really developed an appreciation for how different of a game it is. YGO is balls to the wall, you get up and you go and you don't stop going or you lose. The power fantasy of that is beautiful and it's completely different. Seeing someone with such a wealth of MTG knowledge go "You know, I can appreciate this actually" is just super cool.
Something that helped me cement in my mind how things like relinquished and thousand-eyes work is my friend explaining to me that they essentially turn the enemy monsters into spell cards. Once they get sucked up, the monster doesn't exist anymore, and they turn into equip spell cards that say "the equipped monsters atk and def become x/x"
15:10 What's hilarious is that 5 Entombs and a Tinker is in some ways an understatement. Specifically, you don't need to sacrifice anything for the Tinker nor do you need to put a brick in your library, just 1 in your bonus sideboard.
36:19 I think it's important to note that if you chain Mudragon in response to your opponent's effect that targets a monster, that monster won't be protected from that particular effect, because it was already targeted.
I spent time with LSV and the CB crew back when they were in the Davis/Sacramento area in 2005-2011 range. I am so happy for LSV and his career, and make sure to watch whatever he is in.
LSV is just such a swell guy, wow. Never heard of him till these videos but he's incredibly intuitive, funny and genuine. I think the funniest part is him ending the video saying these have RAISED his respect and interest in Yu-Gi-Oh! Usually, like with Rarran, finding out about some of our cards just makes people think our game is miserable haha. What a lovely dude, I bet he could really abuse tons of YGO strats if what people are saying about his Magic prowess is true and how quickly he cracks the application of our cards. If he had complete context, he'd be a monster at this no doubt.
As someone who hasn't played Yu-Gi-Oh since I was a kid [20+ years ago] these video's are a gut punch of nostalgia as well as an interesting retrospect of where the game has gone.
I spend so much of my time watching these 2 creators that it blows my mind to see them both talking to each other like it’s a small world I played Yugioh in HS and then magic at 20 yo and up after stopping yugioh. Much of this was nostalgic. LSV with the expert breakdowns
I always love to hear MTG pros oppinions and thoughts on our game, as they're probably the closest TCG to YGO in regards with trying to break and abuse cards as much as possible lol. YuGiOh definitely isn't easy to understand, with all it's rulings and interactions, but LSV is the best I've seen evaluate. Also, regarding the OCG, they not only are playing with cards we haven't got yet but they also inherently build decks and play the game differently than the TCG, so that can also influence their banlist as well. Like, certain decks that have crushed over there are just "alright" when they get over here 😅
Dont know LSV but what I found cool is he is so smart when he zooms out and discusses whether a card would be good for the game from a coolness and game design standpoint, I dig that.
Man, it's easy to say high level play is pay to win in whatever game when rare staples cost more than bills, but LSV is one of those people that shows you can train that awareness and start anticipating card interaction. It's enough to get me fired up
This was my favorite one of these so far! Hoping LSV comes back for more extra deck mechanics, I'd love to see Alex walk him through a TeleDAD or Wind-Up combo and try to figure out which cards were banned.
As a former Yugioh player now playing high-level MTG, shoot more of this crossover into my veins any day! I love collaboration like this and each player giving respect to the others' games. I would also love to see LSV do one of these for you about MTG cards-- I'd love to see what'd he choose to present lol. One small piece of feedback to Cimo: I feel like your explanations ran a bit too long this time, and there were times when Louis was looking to say something and couldn't get a word in. I'd like to see you give more space to the guest to speak their thoughts and then ask questions on what context etc. they want clarified. Otherwise absolutely stellar job hosting, and looking forward to the next one!
I am so excited to see LSV returning to this channel. I hope you guys continue to work together and explore the history of this game with one of the GOATs of Magic.
Thanks Cimo for inviting Vargas to the channel: he’s so chill and nice, and has a really sharp eye too! Hope to see him more here! :D also nice to see the collab card universe going!
I find it very interesting that when talking about dragoon, nobody ever mentioned actually having to run red eyes and dark magician, because yeah dragoon was good but you also ran the risk of bricking on two god awful vanillas, which also somewhat hindered dragoon's place in the meta
Is the game so fast-paced that one bad draw costs you the game? Coming from MTG, there are decks that run cards that are simply uncastable (way too expensive, maybe not even in your colors, etc.), but the decks don't suffer from that because the one odd time you draw the card, you're just down a card, no big deal. (For comparison, see MTG's mulligan mechanic: if you don't like your opening hand, before the start of the game, you can shuffle it back in and deal yourself a new hand, but at the cost of having to put one card from it on the bottom of the deck before the game starts. If you don't like _that_ hand, you can do it again at the cost of two cards, then three cards, and so on. Going down one card this way is actually common.)
I hope LSV comes back! it’s crazy how he can look at a series of cards and have a general idea of a series of cards and figure out which one is the problem. Love listening to this dudes breakdowns
LSV is amazing at explaining a game he doesn't play much of. I'm always incredibly pleased to see his thought process for the cards regardless of if his guess is good or not. He fundamentally understands the interactions and makes his decisions based on how healthy something is to interact with and it helps me (someone who hasn't played in a decade+) understand the game all over again 😅
@@chimadang1573 nah back then was a crazy time. A lot of people at that shop won pro tours and such. I was barley just becoming competive from friendly play. Still just a scrub.
47:17 truly astonishing that he is able to be so right on this just from looking at dragoon. Just a breath of understanding that would do loops around others
I would say there's nothing similar to Dragoon in Magic, but it'd be pretty easy to create an analog. Dtagoon would be like if Progenitus kept the same stats and protection, but then it gained these effects: When Progenitus attacks, add 2 Progenitus counters onto this card. Sacrifice 1 Progenitus counter: target and destroy an opponent's monster then deal damage to its controller equal to its power. Sacrifice 1 Progenitus counter and discard 1 card: counter target spell, activated ability, or triggered ability then this card gains 3 +1/+1 counters. Oh, and also Progenitus now costs 2 colorless mana instead of 10 and it's a companion that just requires you to play 2 vanillas in your deck. That would probably be the most accurate MtG representation of what Red Eyes Dark Dragoon was like when playing it or playing against it in Yugioh. It was a card/engine that could be splashed intoiterally any deck with no repercussions and it was pretty much always possible to bring it out turn 1.
As an MTG player who hasn't touched a Yu-Gi-Oh game since the time the fusion deck was still called the fusion deck, I have to wonder, wouldn't Birthing Pod be more comparable to Metamorphosis here?
@@therealax6 When I say 'The Birthing Pod Problem', what I'm referring to is the reason why the card ended up getting banned in Modern. R&D decided that Pod remaining in the format limited the design space of creatures with good ETB's that could be easily chained into one another. Banning Pod allowed them greater freedom with future designs. Stein has the potential to cheat out Fusion monsters without summoning restrictions repeatedly. Dark Balter the Terrible, Ryu-Senshi and the like were quite game-ending in their day. Thus, Stein remaining would artificially cap the design space/power level Yugioh R&D could explore on unrestrictive Fusions, very akin to Pod and efficient creatures with useful ETB's.
In Magic terms, the Extra Deck is a 15 cards companion zone that you get on top of your side deck (you can only have one companion in mtg and it starts in your 15 cards side board)
Love seeing LSV immediately evaluate mud dragon as a control tool. One of the things that tear format drilled into me is just how busted giving your whole board targeting protection, and sometimes preventing them from targeting their own monsters, really is. Even in the current format I'll sometimes fuse off one of my own monsters for a mud dragon instead of using both of theirs for garura because the targeting protection will just end the turn instantly.
36:25 Unless I'm mistaken, you can't use Mudragon reactively because once they target your monster (which happens as soon as they play the card), Mudragon doesn't prevent any of the effects from happening. It has to be proactive to prevent them from targeting your card in the first place. It would be a MUCH stronger card if you could use it reactively, and I don't think that difference should be understated. Definitely could have been ban worthy in that case
I really like the slow build up of complexity, as it lets viewers who don’t play yugioh learn along. It also serialises the videos somewhat, adding a natural narrative between the videos. Some real planning and consideration has clearly been given to this series.
Same thing happens to me when watching the other side and see Yugi players deciphering Magic cards: they explain the card game first, then the card.
WTF no way LSV just figured out you could fusion subzero into another subzero instantly, that's crazy!
If I remember correctly that was the main thesis of their first collaboration “If the card doesn’t say once per turn the user can do it twice if they have another card copy” and that was the main point being brought across to card gamers that aren’t used to a costless system because of gameplay loops it can happen.
So, coming from that video concept, I’m not surprised he saw the loop.
There's a specific interaction in MtG that LSV was involved with back in the day - Where you would use a tutor card called Mystical Teachings to search for another copy of Teachings, then re-cast the first one from the graveyard, and have another one in hand to get two more searches. Realising that you could search for a second Teachings, and that this was CRUSHINGLY more card advantage, was what made the Teachings deck so good, and LSV was one of the guys playing it.
This embodies the "does the card tell you that you can't?"
@@lostalone9320 God I miss that deck so much. 49 minute control mirror, then Teferi resolves after a 9-spell counter war and whoever cast it wins. Good times.
@@MeanderingSlacker I mean that kind of analysis it's what put people on the top of the game
Its almost surreal that a handful of people i have watched independently are now collaborating and crossing the games. Truly fun to watch and root for
Intermingling cultures generates overall growth for both
Same way how languages adapt other aspects of foreign languages to create new vocabulary
All because raran refused to read his master duel cards
It feels like we're building up to something. Like we'll get the creation of the next big CCG because of this.
Typically you don't want to be crossing streams but in this case it's good?
Rarran created his own multiverse.
"Great news, it was a lot of fun, thanks to you and your community for being so welcoming."
Class act, LSV. Looking forward to your character arc going from "Wow, this game looks fun" to "Was this card designed under the influence? And I don't mean drugs, I mean the designer was possessed by the Lament Configuration" to "I cut a notch on my arm every time I get Maxx C'd just to feel alive again", as Rarran's did.
That is both dark and beautiful, excellent work 👌
Ahhahahah😂😂😢😢😢
holy, what a quality post
Idk what any of what you said means, but I had a good time
LSV's not the type to get all that tilted on some of the horrible things a card game can throw at him. Routinely lsv plays some of the most powerful mtg formats for fun, where people are committing acts of violence worse than what some of the CURRENT yugioh decks are doing. He's been 'Yugiohed' in other card games for years, and I've barely ever even seen him get salty. Just shuffles up, and gets ready for the next game.
This guys' understanding of a card game so quickly is insane, I've never played Yu-Gi-Oh myself but hearing him just makes me feel like I can do it so easily too, it's empowering haha
TBF, luis is what you call ''generational talent'' in MTG. He's in the hall of fame and few people can say they've matched his achievements in the game. He's like the mTG version of Kobe.
@@kithkindeck It's funny seeing the Yugioh community shocked by how spot on he is at understanding cards in a game he doesn't play after seeing the exact same thing from the Magic community about Joshua Schmidt. Some people were just born to be good at cardboard mayn
He's possibly the best MTG limited player of all time. Limited is the non constructed formats where you build a deck from booster packs or a pool of cards. Evaluating cards well is what he does.
@@DamdyPirate YGO desperately needs a good Limited format.
@@drago939393 Yugioh needs a true retro format who isn't the big umbrella that is Time Wizard. An established format: Goat, Edison, or whatever, but pick one.
I really dig the natural transition from evaluating cards in a vacuum to this format. Evaluating a card with context seems much more fun.
It is always a treat to have LSVargas in these videos. A month ago I didn’t know who he was because I don’t follow Magic at all, but his card analysis just blows me away, even when he misses, it’s because there is critical information about how the game of Yu-Gi-Oh! has evolved that he is lacking. Also, Mudragon of the Swamp is definitely the coolest card in this video; there is just so much versatility to this card that its effect doesn’t make obvious. I know he wants to move onto other Extra Deck mechanics in the next video, but I would love to see Cimo show LSV the Tearlaments series of cards, just as a bonus.
There's a reason why LSV is one of the best magic players of all time.
LSV has said in the past that one reason why he got good at Magic was because he spent an unreasonable amount of time obsessing about implausible corner case interactions. Which is why he's so good at evaluating cards and metas. Because he's so good at seeing the additional value in cards that isn't obvious even if you play with them.
@@sebastianl4135 I mean he is literally in the top 5 magic players of all time, and there is a reason he’s in the hall of fame. He also has done card game design
LSV has an incredible ability to break down very complex subjects into the most simple terms. That makes him fantastic at both card evaluation and teaching.
Yeah, if he had known what link summoning was etc., he would have guessed more easily after dropping the thousand eyes with a instant fusion was good, but also he didn't know that the monster equipped would go to the graveyard instead of going back to the owner. Either way, really enjoyed the video. I do play a bit of Magic back in the day. So I can understand there is a lot of things that are different from Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh. My only Yu-Gi-Oh knowledge is from playing the pc version and watching Yugitubers.
Something to note for the Magic players in the comments: Dragoon being packaged with effectively two unplayable 7-mana vanillas as a deckbuilding restriction is certainly a factor to its power level. Sometimes drawing your Dark Magician legit loses you the game. Cards that could be argued to have weaker text boxes than Dragoon have seen play instead of him because their "baggage" to cheat out were actually good cards, sometimes relevant from the graveyard even.
I remember a replay where someone activated Invocation and the opponent used called by the grave on the Aleister in grave (in the hopes the Invocation now can't resolve) and they sent both DM and REDBD from the hand to the GY to summon Dragoon. Bro bricked on both of them and had to hard summon it ☠️
I’m surprised Cimo didn’t touch on the fact that Dragoon wasn’t good after verte ban because the red-eyes fusion restriction is so bad. He kind of played it off as dragoon was still insane after verte ban but was left alive solely as nostalgia bait. I think if red-eyes fusion locked for the rest of the turn instead of the entire turn, red-eyes fusion would’ve been hit.
Also something they didn't seem to mention (and I don't play YGO, just Magic so I'm not sure if this even works this way) but since you only get an instance of the effect for each vanilla monster fused, then cheating it to play could result in you getting zero activations of that effect.
@@GiuseppeGaetanoSabatelliso the way you can cheat it out still requires you to have at LEAST dark magician, since you’re copying the effect of fusion summoning instead of just special summoning the dragoon directly, so you’ll get at least 1 of the activations
@@GiuseppeGaetanoSabatelli Depends how exactly you "cheat" it.
Using Red-Eyes Fusion requires Dark Magician and Red-Eyes Black Dragon so you always get the activations. The card that Cimo mentions copying the Fusion spell doesn't bypass that because sending the materials to the graveyard (or exiling them for cards like Miracle Fusion) is part of the effect resolution of every fusion spell so without the proper materials you can't fuse into Dragoon.
Cheating the Dragoon with Cyber-Stein will give you 0 activations because it had no materials. It's still an untargetable, indestructible counterspell on a stick with high attack though so not bad despite not being the best choice.
LSV is so knowledgeable about just cars design in general and it really shines through here. Even though he got a lot of the ban/unbans wrong, a lot of the time it seemed like it was just missing context more then anything wrong with his card evaluations.
I would love to see Patrick Sullivan do one of these too, he'd be great at it.
Yeah absolutely, feel like there were a ton of ones where with context he would have had it
Something kinda important to have explained to LSV about Mudragon of the swamp, is the difference between hexproof and making something untargetable
In MTG if your opponent targets your creature with a card effect and you use mother of runes to give it hexproof in response, the targeting effect will fizzle due to the creature being untargetable (IE you could use mother of runes in response to fizzle an opponents spell)
Where in Yugioh, targeting is part of costs and if you respond to an opponents card effect with mudragon to make it untargetable, well its already been targeted so the mudragon effect effectively did nothing
This forces you to use mudragon pre-emptively and since u have to use it pre-emptively, if your opponent has 1 targeting effect and u have multiple attributes u cannot protect them all by simply having the mudragon you have to choose ahead of time which attribute u wish to protect
Especially with lsv's comparison to mother of runes it probably did factor in to his decision as mudragon would be much MUCH more powerful if yugioh had the same rules as MTG in this regard
I know the main driver was to see super poly as the degenerate enabler/board breaker but a monster like mudragon forcing 2 for 1's with its effect can really swing those scales
yeh small nuance that makes it not as powerful as it seems but mudragon definitely has potential and it can also be used offensively too, i had the rare opportunity to stop a utopia double play mid combo with mudragon changing its attribute to light since the double or nothing spell specifically targets so if the opponent has to target their own monsters for an effect mudragon can be uniquely used this way or simply to prevent equip spells from being used since those have to target on activation in general
Does magic have non-targeting single destruction like Yugioh does? For example, Number 4: Stealth Kragen
@@MansMan42069 Yes, but it depends what you mean. The most common type of card that I'd consider to have a "non-targeting single destruction" effect in MTG would be "sacrifice" effects. They can be something generic like "each opponent sacrifices a creature," which allows the opponent to choose any single creature to sacrifice, or they can have specific requirements like sacrificing the creature with the most power or with a certain ability or with the highest mana cost. The problem with those cards is the opponent gets to choose which creature dies, so they tend to be weak against decks that have lots of creatures instead of just one at a time.
There are a few specific cards that get around "targeting" by using the word "choose" instead of "target," but they're pretty rare and generally not efficient enough to play. One card that sometimes sees play named Council's Judgement has each player vote for a card in play to remove from the game, for example. It costs too much mana to really be useful in a constructed format, but it gets around targeting restrictions because it doesn't use the word "target."
@@michaeldegrave5905 In terms of procedure and resolving an effect, when an effect says "Destroy 1 card", the intended card is not known until the resolution of that effect on the chain/stack. Compared to "Target 1 card; destroy it" where the intended card is known at activation/casting. Interesting that Magic doesn't play with nuances like this.
@@MansMan42069 Council's judgement does what you want but that effect is extremely rare on a single target spell.
Note with Super Polymerization, that you can use materials from *either* side of the field, and that also means you can use both at once. So if there was a popular boss monster subject to being made into Super Polymerization fodder, you could intentionally run monsters of your own that would help fulfill the condition for that Fusion Summon, in tandem with the opponent's monster.
On the note of Red-Eyes Fusion, it should be mentioned that there is a substantial number of "Red-Eyes" Fusion Monsters that this spell could bring out. Dragoon was far from the only thing you could theoretically play with it, even if most of the others are kinda mediocre. So banning Red-Eyes Fusion would also hamper the playability of several other cool-looking monsters.
Tbh, I think Cimo should've shown him an example of Contact Fusion, too. Maybe something like Gladiator Beast Gyzarus, as a popular example.
Same reason I run Albaz. The amount of times I’ve let my opponents go first on Master Duel to disrupt their board is innumerable.
I'm just glad Yugioh players are seeing why LSV is one of the--if not the--most legendary MtG players of all time
What i really love is how Cimo will take these dude on a journey. A "History of Yugioh" if you would.
I love the way his analyses cards not just on the mechanics but the meta analysis of players. Can totally tell he is a game designer trying to make his own card game based on how much value he put in the community having cool stuff to play and aspire to.
Cimo, I have to say you do such a great job hosting these "Guessing Banned Cards" type series. I've watched half a dozen different channels with similar videos (several of which you've collabed with ofc) but you do such a phenomenal job of gradually building up the knowledge and context of Yu-Gi-Oh for your guests. It's satisfying to see them have to piece things together bit by bit and it feels more organic to the new player experience.
57:48 LSV deserves credit for this, because he figured the entire shitshow that was cheating Dragoon, without knowing about the existence of Verte Anaconda, the biggest degeneracy ever printed.
can't wait for Crystron Halqifibrax to make an appearance
@@MansMan42069 Crystrons where really done diry on that one.
@@Hurricayne92predaplants too
@@Hurricayne92they just needed better main deck monsters for making it. I've always felt that cards like Halq should archetype-lock and be better if used in its actual deck. Also, they should retrain Red-Eyes Fusion.
this guy is so good at understanding cardgames
Real!
Real!
He's been playing MTG so long you could say he has a PhD in card gaming
LSV is in fact a cardboard scientist.
It's because he plays Professional MTG for a living. Channel Fireball is a Magic team that plays Magic in tournaments and also sells cards so they see a lot come through them.
5 entombs and a tinker is an insane concept. ABSOLUTELY BUSTED for MTG
Well, Future Fusion at least has the decency of being somewhat restrictive with what it sends. Painful Choice is a normal spell that says "pick 5 cards from your deck, your opponent adds 1 to your hand and sent the rest to the graveyard", so it's a even more busted Gifts Ungiven (I think thatns the card)
@@dudono1744 Correct!
@dudono1744 One thing I want to add for Gifts Ungiven. You chose up to four cards, and your opponent chooses two to go to the grave and two to hand. You can choose to pick two and have them sent to the yard. So, it feels a lot closer to painful choice than you think
Search your library for an artéfact , then search into your library a card and put it into your graveyard , in two turn put that artéfact in play
But from my understanding it would be more " search your library for a créature, then search into you'r library créatures on the same mana color UP to the number of needed for the selected créature, in two turn put it into play and sent to the graveyard the créatures used as mana cost.
Now that I know that LSV is reading these comments. Hello Luis!
I gotta mention that Thousand-Eyes Restrict is even more abyssmal to have in the game in old yugioh because it prevents other Monsters from attacking, which means, if you AND your opponent controls a Thousand-Eyes Restrict each, NONE can attack. It was the ultimate stalemate.
Another interesting thing about Yugioh is that because we can attack Monsters directly, and have to do so in order to attack directly, there isn't really much 1:1 removal as in Magic the Gathering. Not every set has a Doom Blade. Our Removal in modern yugioh is tied to Monster effects destroying other cards, like Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon or something like Thousand-Eyes Restrict.
Dude, seeing LSV in these and hearing he had a blast is so freaking cool. I love the crossover in two games I play, and getting a player of his caliber to just nail analysis of unfamiliar cards is so darn entertaining.
Future fusion was such a great card, it was hilarious when your opponent actually didn't destroy it, and you just got a 5000 beat stick.
Pre-errata Future Fusion + Dragon's Mirror was my favourite turn 1 F.G.D. combo
@@MansMan42069 Oh yea, did that a lot too.
Plus Red-eyes Darkness Metal Dragon used to be at 3.
I miss the days when kid me would use Future Fusion in my Dragunity deck to fill the grave with dragons lol. Easy phalanx in grave baby 😂😂😂
This was a clever idea, pairing fusion monsters with their fusion spells. I've never seen that done before.
Makes me think it would be cool to do one where you give people the cards in a combo *more generally* (such as scientist, last will, catapult turtle, or Substitoad, Ronintoad, Mass Driver) and see if they can figure out which ones got banned to get rid of it.
Just like rating cards butn instead rating combos. Another fun old school combo to show would be Gearfried the Iron Knight, Butterfly Dagger Elma and Royal Magical Library.
It would be interesting to see if LSV vould understand how the combo would work just by seeing the cards with no other context.
TheOneJame does videos like that,
He found that most cards weren't fun to review in isolation,
So he started showing people archetypes to compare against each other.
One thing that LSV likely didn't know about with Mudragon-Mother of Runes comparison, is that in MTG, giving protection in response to a removal spell, essentially counters the spell; whereas in yugioh, if someone targets Mudragon with Imperm, responding with Mudragon does absolutely nothing - Imperm will still resolve, with Mudragon as a legal target, because it doesn't say "negate."
@@SackofDooDoo This, because targeting in Yugioh is a "cost", and in Magic is part of the effect, so you can answer the target there with a hexproof and nothing happens.
@@exiavaganza For the record, targetting in MTG is _not_ part of the effect - it's part of the casting/activation process. In fact, it happens _before_ costs are paid. (Spells and abilities fizzle when their targets become invalid because there's a rule that says so.)
Yep, and Cimo doesn't know the rules well enough to answer the question correctly.
This guy is insanely good its actually scary respect to him !
I love how right LSV is about everything, just the YGO ban list is so weird that it doesn’t always make sense
Can we just take a moment to appreciate Cimo’s direction and ability to almost create a “plot” in the cards presented. Everything makes sense sequentially, and he has curated a very entertaining experience. Combined with LSV’s incredibly impressive card game knowledge, these videos really are peak.
Excellent video, I really enjoyed that you gave him multiple cards at a time trying to figure out which part of the combo was banned, plus it was focused on Fusions, nice and concise.
can you imagine an MTG progression series with these two? I mean granted LSV is in the magic hall of fame and Cimo has barely played it, so it might be a hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby scenario, but I'd love it anyway
red eyes dark dragoon, a absolute menace in the ocg because nothing could slay it.
When it released in the tcg to much fanfare, it fell flat on it's face because there were many things that could slay it.
Ice Dragon's prison, triple tactics talent, forbidden droplet and several more - tales from mega capital g
Seeing E-Hero Absolute Zero brought back some great memories from over a decade ago. I used to play an E-Hero deck that revolved around Super Poly, using my opponents own monsters as materials for my summons. And I also ran Mask Change specifically for Absolute Zero, sacrificing it to get out Masked Hero Acid. Zero destroyed all monsters while Acid destroyed all Spells/Traps, and the trigger was too fast to stop both so my opponents monsters would be destroyed regardless. I called it my ‘Troll-Hero’ deck.
I had a friend who used that same darn combo on me all the time. He loved hero decks, and we'd always call it the absolute asshole combo.
craziest part was Dragoon wasn't even the best thing people cheated out with Verte lmaoooo
I mean you are also running literally bricks in your deck so that's a down side for it.
DPE is really obnoxious XD
I think the goon is more obnoxious than DPE, but you don't have to run two vanillas for it, as Celestial was great when dumped. Then the power creep was stronger than ever during Tear format, and when Anaconda was finally banned, it wasn't really a threat anymore. Having 3 main deck and 2 extra deck monsters for a floaty thing who pops cards wasn't that great after POTE.
@@exiavaganza It's still legal in Master Duel and it does basically nothing. The effect to make something a DARK is more problematic because it makes every Snake-Eye starter a 1-card Curious
From the first time LSV was on the show and even now, hearing this guy's insight on a game he doesn't play is so dang impressive
Not even finishing reading out loud Cyber Stein's effect and giving us info about "enabling" cards was so cool
I can't wait to see LSV's reaction to the crazy stuff Synchro, XYZ and Link summons can do
@@XemnasTM LSV sees Floo: "There is nothing Normal about these Summons."
let wait until he see firewall dragon and how long it took for that utterly broken combo enabler(loopable card that cheat stuff onto play when combined with sac outlet, which enabled ridiculous combos, think the mana half of KCI as a companion with haste) to get banned, which also warped the game around itself with protagonist related immunity
It's absolutely cracked that originally the only players with access to Cyber-Stein were tourney grinders who had already won a tournament lol
This format will one day crossover to every single card game there is:
Yu-Gi-Oh Player guesses if Slay the Spire cards are good, Magic Player guesses if Gwent cards are good, Pokémon player guesses if Dominion cards are good, Flesh and Blood player guesses if Balatro cards are good, Hearthstone player guesses if Uno cards are good, ...
But I would actually love to see this format with players of all kinds of different card games, to see how different they approach and think about cards. Like I would love to see how a Yu Gi Oh Player looks at deck builders like Dominion or Slay the Spire cards, where playing your entire deck in one turn is not unusual for a good deck.
Or the other way around on this channel of course.
As someone that has played hearthstone since closed beta I think youre overestimating hearthstone players there. Uno is way too complicated for a childrens card gamer.
I don't really care if he will guess correctly. I love the way he analyzes the cards. I would love to see you go through Ritual first showing the mechanic that went along Fusion early on and then get to crazy Extra Deck mechanics
I was hoping you show Louis Kitakallos and the whole Tearlaments, i'm sure he would super fast undertand the cards, but i'm not sure if he could have completely know how deep it Tear can go.
It's almost a cryme that cimo didn't show off Tearlaments.
Also Dragoon was so much more popular in the OCG bc red-eyes fusion was so strong into Maxx C. Making it worth running 2 vanillas.
Cryme lol
Cimoo trying so hard to gaslight LSVargas like he is supposed to be farfa
thousand eyes restrict equipping monsters is its own whole can of worms since it literally converts the monster it equips into an equip spell, this effectively removes the card from the domain of what constitutes a monster thereby stripping it of its monster card identity and forces equip spell rules onto it
And then we have monsters that actually have effects when they're treated as Equip Spells like Dragon/Wizard/Robot Buster Destruction Sword.
For the most part, yes, but it is still a "Monster CARD" it is just treated as an equip spell.
They've had to crack down and clarify this since they keep making cards that care about monster cards in s/t zones like Flamberge. Granted Flamberge isn't the "best" example since he cares about monsters classified as specifically continuous spells.
@@amethonys2798 yeh i know what you mean since they still count as ‘monster card’ just not as a ‘monster’ but this mechanical difference wasnt relevant until over a decade later despite technically being present back then is just wild because i dnt believe players back then realize the true implication of such a mechanic
a better example would be deus machinex since he additionally triggers off of any monster card in the s/t zone currently being treated as a spell/trap for various reasons including pends and I believe another example would be the vaylantz boss fusion too
Whenever LSV comes back for synchros and XYZ, especially XYZ, and then Cimo shows him Dingirsu. I without have any doubts can see how good Dingirsu is and how it can compete against Dragoon.
Honestly he might've gotten the Dragoon call right if he also saw Anaconda, he was pretty close.
Future Fusion's use case is intimidating to me as a Pokemon player. They've announced they're printing an ACE SPEC that lets you send 5 cards from your deck to the discard
If we had Future Fusion pre -errata today in Yugioh, so many fusion based decks would be insanely cracked as multiple have graveyard effects.
@@RazielTheUnborn Pre Errata Future Fusion with Tearlaments woul eb a massacre.
@@Ms666slayer Would be a slaughter and would change up the build a crap ton. The'd play less Tears, probably less Ishizu, and can add even more nonsense to help.
@@Ms666slayer It would be a nice toy, but the Ishizu package was way stronger than Future Fusion. Also, the card is useless when milling it.
The two best content creators for their respective games. One of which is a top 5 player of all time for MTG, instant watch and like!! Can’t wait to see how LSV crushes this analysis
1:30
Funny that the strongest Fusion deck ever Tearlament never used Polymerisation
At least when it was at full power it didn't. It began to once virtually it's main cards were gutted and was able to hold on a bit longer
a lot of modern fusion decks forgo poly for either their own built in fusion effect or spell
It actually did, people were using just one alongside King of the Swamp before the Ishizu cards were released
The real question here is:
Is LSV considered being canon in the Rarran tcg multiverse?
yes.
Might be "extended" multiverse at this point. I'm waiting for the hour+ long "iceberg" video to show up in my feed to try to explain all the lore.
Rarran + cimo + lsv + day9 crossover, when?
I'm pretty sure LSV did a video with Rarran already
I love how you change up the formula for him on how questions are asked and how cards are shown in a group to him because his card evaluation skills are off the charts
i only recently started watching this channel but "literally all the guinea pigs" catches me off guard every time
Something that's often overlooked is *Thousand-Eyes Restrict can equip more than 1 monster:* if Golden-Eyes Idol is banished or sent to the GY by card effect, it allows you to target an opponent's monster on the field and equip it to an "Eyes Restrict" or "Relinquished" monster. The reason this works is because the monster is being equipped by the effect of _Golden-Eyes Idol._ So if for whatever reason your Thousand-Eyes gets its effect negated, the monster equipped by Golden-Eyes' effect won't be detached (because the card being negated isn't Golden-Eyes).
I love this checklist method of showing people broken combos or broken seeming combos and letting them try to get into the developer’s head to try to figure out which cards need to go
I was surprised LSV got the Mudragon/Super Poly wrong. I mean, Mud is exactly like a Mom or a Skrelv. Annoying, but not much else. Super Poly can be removal fused with "Put a creature into play" with "Split Second" lmao, that's just nuts...
Everytime the subject of a "prize" card being legal in the game (Significantly rarer/hard to get + being good), I'm reminded of Nexus of Fate's stranglehold on Magic (and the fact that being only available in foil, just having it in your deck could open you up to "marked cards" penalties if the rest of your deck was normal/nonfoil lol).
Looking forward to a video showing Synchros and tuners/engines after this one, this format is so clean and highlights so much of what's cool about YGO, I think Cimo presenting it so neatly is what made LSV say what he said at the end about YGO seeming more interesting and deep
you forgot to mention the fact that future fusion ALSO thins your deck by 12.5% more...
That depends on the fusion. Machine decks would use future fusion + Chimeratech Overdragon to bin literally every machine in your deck and then overload fusion into big giant dude to go for game
@@ryansanagustin6553 Ahh the good ol days LoL
Deck thinning is. Not the reason the card is good. It's good bc it can send whatever you want to the gy and then get immediate value from that point on. If you're going to more turns after resolving future fusion to take advantage of the thinned deck, you probably messed up along the way
@@jorgitosilva I wonder if pre errata Future Fusion would be used in Tearlaments lmao
@@exiavaganzareveal kaleido send 3, activate grave triggers. Tear players will tell you it’s fair because kit is banned and names are at 1
@LSVargas should flip the script and have Cimo guess magic cards
Love LSV learning YGO and expertly dissecting cards without the greater game context. Truly one of the best to ever do it.
Showing all these different fusion monsters AND all the unique fusions spells yugioh has to get them out to give LSV an understanding of them is such a smart way to do this. It keeps the topic limited in scope while still covering a lot. I am really enjoying this series.
LSV is such a class act! Incredible intuition, understanding, and foresight for how mechanics will play with each other. An absolute galaxy brain!
Having watched a few of these videos now, I'm really glad how the guests come across. They're all obviously switched-on, and it's cool to see another perspective on the cards. The big thing for me, though, is that regardless of how much they get right or wrong they always come out looking good - sometimes the incorrect evaluations are the most interesting, because they really show how big the mechanical differences are between the games.
The man just does not miss. Perfectly evaluates every card
Love watching LSV do these card evaluations. Just understands card games on a fundamental level beyond the majority.
The Goat LSV back again!
His reaction while reading Super Poly... Priceless.
I hope LSV returns the favour with a "Yu-Gi-Oh! player evaluates what's the better Vintage Cube pick?" video. That would be a great way to do a grand tour of MTG by leaning on the king of formats.
I really love seeing LSV doing these. I've played MTg competitively, certainly nowhere near as much as LSV, and since have picked up a casual interest in YGO. I really developed an appreciation for how different of a game it is. YGO is balls to the wall, you get up and you go and you don't stop going or you lose. The power fantasy of that is beautiful and it's completely different. Seeing someone with such a wealth of MTG knowledge go "You know, I can appreciate this actually" is just super cool.
Something that helped me cement in my mind how things like relinquished and thousand-eyes work is my friend explaining to me that they essentially turn the enemy monsters into spell cards. Once they get sucked up, the monster doesn't exist anymore, and they turn into equip spell cards that say "the equipped monsters atk and def become x/x"
I really enjoy seeing LSV on the show. Hope we get quite a few more with him. :)
15:10 What's hilarious is that 5 Entombs and a Tinker is in some ways an understatement. Specifically, you don't need to sacrifice anything for the Tinker nor do you need to put a brick in your library, just 1 in your bonus sideboard.
36:19 I think it's important to note that if you chain Mudragon in response to your opponent's effect that targets a monster, that monster won't be protected from that particular effect, because it was already targeted.
I spent time with LSV and the CB crew back when they were in the Davis/Sacramento area in 2005-2011 range. I am so happy for LSV and his career, and make sure to watch whatever he is in.
Seeing some old cards makes me think Thunder Dragon might be an interesting card to look at.
I love this format and I'm glad that the RCGU (Rarran's card game universe) has introduced me to Cimo, CGB, LSV etc.
LSV is just such a swell guy, wow. Never heard of him till these videos but he's incredibly intuitive, funny and genuine. I think the funniest part is him ending the video saying these have RAISED his respect and interest in Yu-Gi-Oh! Usually, like with Rarran, finding out about some of our cards just makes people think our game is miserable haha. What a lovely dude, I bet he could really abuse tons of YGO strats if what people are saying about his Magic prowess is true and how quickly he cracks the application of our cards. If he had complete context, he'd be a monster at this no doubt.
As someone who hasn't played Yu-Gi-Oh since I was a kid [20+ years ago] these video's are a gut punch of nostalgia as well as an interesting retrospect of where the game has gone.
I spend so much of my time watching these 2 creators that it blows my mind to see them both talking to each other like it’s a small world
I played Yugioh in HS and then magic at 20 yo and up after stopping yugioh. Much of this was nostalgic.
LSV with the expert breakdowns
I always love to hear MTG pros oppinions and thoughts on our game, as they're probably the closest TCG to YGO in regards with trying to break and abuse cards as much as possible lol. YuGiOh definitely isn't easy to understand, with all it's rulings and interactions, but LSV is the best I've seen evaluate.
Also, regarding the OCG, they not only are playing with cards we haven't got yet but they also inherently build decks and play the game differently than the TCG, so that can also influence their banlist as well. Like, certain decks that have crushed over there are just "alright" when they get over here 😅
Dont know LSV but what I found cool is he is so smart when he zooms out and discusses whether a card would be good for the game from a coolness and game design standpoint, I dig that.
Man, it's easy to say high level play is pay to win in whatever game when rare staples cost more than bills, but LSV is one of those people that shows you can train that awareness and start anticipating card interaction. It's enough to get me fired up
This was my favorite one of these so far! Hoping LSV comes back for more extra deck mechanics, I'd love to see Alex walk him through a TeleDAD or Wind-Up combo and try to figure out which cards were banned.
As a former Yugioh player now playing high-level MTG, shoot more of this crossover into my veins any day! I love collaboration like this and each player giving respect to the others' games. I would also love to see LSV do one of these for you about MTG cards-- I'd love to see what'd he choose to present lol.
One small piece of feedback to Cimo: I feel like your explanations ran a bit too long this time, and there were times when Louis was looking to say something and couldn't get a word in. I'd like to see you give more space to the guest to speak their thoughts and then ask questions on what context etc. they want clarified. Otherwise absolutely stellar job hosting, and looking forward to the next one!
I am so excited to see LSV returning to this channel. I hope you guys continue to work together and explore the history of this game with one of the GOATs of Magic.
Thanks Cimo for inviting Vargas to the channel: he’s so chill and nice, and has a really sharp eye too! Hope to see him more here! :D also nice to see the collab card universe going!
I find it very interesting that when talking about dragoon, nobody ever mentioned actually having to run red eyes and dark magician, because yeah dragoon was good but you also ran the risk of bricking on two god awful vanillas, which also somewhat hindered dragoon's place in the meta
Is the game so fast-paced that one bad draw costs you the game? Coming from MTG, there are decks that run cards that are simply uncastable (way too expensive, maybe not even in your colors, etc.), but the decks don't suffer from that because the one odd time you draw the card, you're just down a card, no big deal.
(For comparison, see MTG's mulligan mechanic: if you don't like your opening hand, before the start of the game, you can shuffle it back in and deal yourself a new hand, but at the cost of having to put one card from it on the bottom of the deck before the game starts. If you don't like _that_ hand, you can do it again at the cost of two cards, then three cards, and so on. Going down one card this way is actually common.)
At this point "life keeps using solemn judgment on my hopes and dreams" is just a staple in your outro
I hope LSV comes back! it’s crazy how he can look at a series of cards and have a general idea of a series of cards and figure out which one is the problem. Love listening to this dudes breakdowns
After future fusioning 5 headed dragon you can defuse it to summon the 5 dragons to the field.
LSV is amazing at explaining a game he doesn't play much of. I'm always incredibly pleased to see his thought process for the cards regardless of if his guess is good or not. He fundamentally understands the interactions and makes his decisions based on how healthy something is to interact with and it helps me (someone who hasn't played in a decade+) understand the game all over again 😅
Crazy. I use to play LSV at locals. What a time
Did you kick his ass?
@@chimadang1573 nah back then was a crazy time. A lot of people at that shop won pro tours and such. I was barley just becoming competive from friendly play. Still just a scrub.
LSV is legit the MVP. Please MORE LSV
47:17 truly astonishing that he is able to be so right on this just from looking at dragoon. Just a breath of understanding that would do loops around others
LSV seems like such a relaxed and fun guy.
his thought-processes are really fun to follow .
hope we get to see him again
I would say there's nothing similar to Dragoon in Magic, but it'd be pretty easy to create an analog.
Dtagoon would be like if Progenitus kept the same stats and protection, but then it gained these effects:
When Progenitus attacks, add 2 Progenitus counters onto this card.
Sacrifice 1 Progenitus counter: target and destroy an opponent's monster then deal damage to its controller equal to its power.
Sacrifice 1 Progenitus counter and discard 1 card: counter target spell, activated ability, or triggered ability then this card gains 3 +1/+1 counters.
Oh, and also Progenitus now costs 2 colorless mana instead of 10 and it's a companion that just requires you to play 2 vanillas in your deck.
That would probably be the most accurate MtG representation of what Red Eyes Dark Dragoon was like when playing it or playing against it in Yugioh. It was a card/engine that could be splashed intoiterally any deck with no repercussions and it was pretty much always possible to bring it out turn 1.
I absolutely love the in-depth description of why the cards were balanced or broken. Both of you are great!
i love how the "Player from another card game rates cards" video format is slowly spreading from creator to creator
8:20 LSV has correctly identified the 'Birthing Pod problem' with cards like Cyber-Stein.
As an MTG player who hasn't touched a Yu-Gi-Oh game since the time the fusion deck was still called the fusion deck, I have to wonder, wouldn't Birthing Pod be more comparable to Metamorphosis here?
@@therealax6 When I say 'The Birthing Pod Problem', what I'm referring to is the reason why the card ended up getting banned in Modern. R&D decided that Pod remaining in the format limited the design space of creatures with good ETB's that could be easily chained into one another. Banning Pod allowed them greater freedom with future designs.
Stein has the potential to cheat out Fusion monsters without summoning restrictions repeatedly. Dark Balter the Terrible, Ryu-Senshi and the like were quite game-ending in their day. Thus, Stein remaining would artificially cap the design space/power level Yugioh R&D could explore on unrestrictive Fusions, very akin to Pod and efficient creatures with useful ETB's.
In Magic terms, the Extra Deck is a 15 cards companion zone that you get on top of your side deck (you can only have one companion in mtg and it starts in your 15 cards side board)
It's interesting to learn that Magic the Gathering has a card almost identical to Foolish Burial (Entomb), and it's also very powerful in that game.
SO glad to see LSV back on the show. Watching him evaluate cards is a genuine treat
Love seeing LSV immediately evaluate mud dragon as a control tool. One of the things that tear format drilled into me is just how busted giving your whole board targeting protection, and sometimes preventing them from targeting their own monsters, really is. Even in the current format I'll sometimes fuse off one of my own monsters for a mud dragon instead of using both of theirs for garura because the targeting protection will just end the turn instantly.
36:25 Unless I'm mistaken, you can't use Mudragon reactively because once they target your monster (which happens as soon as they play the card), Mudragon doesn't prevent any of the effects from happening. It has to be proactive to prevent them from targeting your card in the first place.
It would be a MUCH stronger card if you could use it reactively, and I don't think that difference should be understated. Definitely could have been ban worthy in that case