GUILLIMAN THE TRUE HEIR TO THE EMPIRE? WAS HE THE EMPEROR'S CHOICE?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Hey everyone Rho here! Today we're asking the question... Was Roboute Guilliman the chosen heir to the Emperor?
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we are discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
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Guilliman is actually the most overpowered being in the WH40k universe as he possesses the greatest and rarest superpower in the entire setting - common sense.
Dont forget Khan
He, Khan, and Caphis Cain.
@@cheeseburger12 Cain has that anime MC plot armor as well! Most of his selfish cowardly decisions always worked in his favor and further build his mythical feats in the eyes of the Imperium.
The Khan has that power too. Also the power of sick burns.
Sick burn
It occurs to me that Guilliman was more useful as the lord of Ultramar than he would have been as warmaster. Having a region like Ultramar that is internally stable and able to send support outwards to the wider imperium is a priceless boon.
500 worlds supporting over a million isn't going to do much unless you go full Krieg
Agreed. Warmaster is a role that Guilliman would have squirmed under. He would have complained and would have gotten depressed because of brutality needed for the job.
If Emperor wanted to step down, I think the best would be to simply make him the top ruler, call it President or Archon, if Emperor triggers his brothers too much.
@@Atlashon Guilliman could kill trillions if he had to. The idea he's some sensitive nancy is bollocks. He, like all the primarchs and all space marines, would do whatever it took to win. Every primarch would be able to be war master from an ethical stance. Horus suited the other parts of the job better than his brothers because he was the most well liked of them while still being someone that imperial commanders could work alongside effectively.
@@Atlashon Agreed. Horus said that Guilliman understood war just as well as Horus did BUT the difference was that Guilliman wishes he did not understand war.
what, guilliman would be perfect for warmaster he would be in his element. hed have made all regions like ultramar instead of what his brothers did which was conqueror and then move on letting someone else deal with the other stuff. The warmaster doesnt have to be on the field of battle like alexander the great. Hes based on ceaser, and caesar veni vidi vici'd ( he came, he saw, he conquered )
Guilliman isn’t strong because he has the charisma of Horus or Sanguinius. People don’t realize just how remarkable Ultramar was and even is now. It is as close as to a “nice place” for humans to live in 40k. Ultramar even had baseline medical care for people, practically unheard of in the setting. It wasn’t nearly as corrupt as other places.
Sound like someone coping after losing a game of... Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker that was turned into an Ultra-Game.
Prospero was a pretty idyllic place as well iirc.
Well that’s not one hundred percent right they do have pleasure planet’s all over the place cool stories just don’t happen there
@dittmar104 I know it's 40k but are you saying a pleasurable place isn't a nice one? I mean I doubt they are going full on Slaanesh cultist there.
@@shanelewis7052 you’d be surprised what too much of a good thing can lead to
Surprised you did not reference what the Rune Priest says in Prospero Burns - given your affinity for the Wolves - as he goes through each of the Primarch Wyrds:
- One to be the heir to the Emperor's Throne: Guilliman
- One to fortify the defences of the Imperium: Dorn
- One to guard the hearth: Vulkan
- One to watch the distant perimeter: The Kahn
- One to command the armies: The Lion
- One to control intelligences: Corax
- One to be executioner: Russ
Notice that the wyrds only cover the surviving loyal sons, which goes to the idea that the heresy was pre-ordained.
You absolutely can't trust the third tier psykers of the 6th Legion to know anything. The Heresy is nothing but failures for them.
I haven’t read that book but could the heir to the throne have actually been a reference to Magnus and the literally golden throne? Wasn’t he half earmarked to sit on the golden throne before “doing nothing wrong”
@@jules9094 before doing nothing wrong hahahahahahah
Exactly... my whole view its that the dumb emperor looked at the future and seen his status has God of humanity and has a god he loses his persona and humanity, and kinda became what ppl believe he is... then he did all the shaneningans to avoid that fate. WHile making it a reality.
When he create the Grey Knights show it all in one sentence. PLUS all the oter bullshit he does only show that.
One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness. One last blade, forged in defiance of fate. Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered...And my final gift to the species I failed.'
Theres few lines of him... that sound not like what the emperor would say, but thats why its what he really meant. The oter one its when he says about time and how its to see the future while talking to Ra i think.
@@jules9094 Not precisely. The plan seems to be that Magnus was to power the Astronomicon so that Big E can focus on the Webway project and complete it. Once humanity had control of the webway, the Astronomicon would be unneeded as humans would travel via the webway rather than the warp, and furthermore, Big E would be able to cut off the Ruinous Powers by blocking the connection between humans and Chaos. Big E would also be able to block all psykers everywhere, too. There would be no need for anyone to sit the Golden Throne at this point.
I honestly don't think any of the primarchs could truly qualify as a "true heir" to the Emperor. He's just too singular a character.
I can see you're logic. Personally, I do think that the Primarchs may have been meant to rule as a council as opposed to just one being anointed as heir.
I have to agree. Plus an heir implies that the sovereign is supposed to retire or die and I do not think the Emperor was thinking about retirement, let alone death. I know Rho likes to see this idealized Emperor who cares and loves his "sons" but I have a hard time imagining a being of his stature, power and distance from ordinary human beings even capable of actually loving any single individual the way we understand love. He just seems like an obsessed individual focused on a single thing (whatever his endgame actually was/is) and plans that most of us cannot even comprehend. Just the thought of a "bloke" that lives thousands of years, sees billions come and go, empires rise and fall but somehow he likes things he cooked up in a lab. It just does not fit at all.
Well guileman has done the best job at preserving and growing an empire but he deffinititly cant stand up to the sheer versatility of the emperor
@@robc6391 I see he felt sorrow and pain because he was losing tools and tools were breaking.
Agreed. They each have a role to play. Guilliman the administrator, sanguinious the figurehead, horus the warmarshal, etc
Guilliman is the world builder, he is more fit to lead humanity than the Emperor himself
The Khan managed to create a cosmopolitan society through establishing common ground diplomatically, created a stable and healthy integration of psychers into his culture and possesses common sense. In many ways he has surpassed Big E, even if his domain isn't as robust as Ultramar.
@@KaiserAfini Both the Khan's and Guilliman's warp superpower was common sense and practicality.
@@Judge_of_Anubis05 The rarest, most OP power in all of 40K.
@@Judge_of_Anubis05 their major weakness is their unbridled rage in which emotions take over and common sense flies out the window. To their credit it doesn’t happen often for either.
@@mr.spuddling4187 Scared the shit out of Lorgar though so despite reason going out the window it was still a big plus 🤣
There's something to be said about the emperor referring to Vulcan as the creation he was most proud of. He would be the least likely to want to rule and most likely let humanity rule itself
My 2 favorite Primarchs are Vulkan and Roboute. Demigods sure, but incredibly human characters. And their sons don't like to murder civilians...
I think if the emperor chose His heir it would be Vulcan. Because he is very human and would be the only one Not wanting the throne
@@Oliver-bt3nv the line of succession if all primarcs were still loyal would be sanguinius,Horus, Gilman,Rogal,Dorn, then Ferris or Vulcan.
Vulkan its my favored toghter with salamanders and flame thowers. But hes not made to rule hes made to advise. Hes to good of a person(for 40k standards).
@Oliver-bt3nv you don't want someone ruling you that doesn't want to rule.
Guilliman is Caesar Augustus in space from his blond hair, upbringing, the smurfs’ Roman trappings and his tendency for building empires. He’s by far the most qualified to lead a galactic government.
I was told Caesar was black, but they made him Aryan because they didn't like black people.
Yet Caesar Augustus led the decimation of the Roman empire. If that's "qualified", I'm Cleopatra.
@@LeCharles07 there was no Roman Empire before Octavian, he literally made it😅 he is widely known as the greatest emperor and ruler of Rome only contended by his adopted uncle, Caesar. Octavian reformed Rome, brought prosperity to it and started the PAX
The decimation you speak of is in reference to his rise to power? If so that’s was inevitable after Caesars death and Octavian definitely made up for it by a lot
He's got his flaws though and they are showing in the current setting. I have a feeling the situation with Calgar is going to blow up spectacularly and he can't see it. Sure he's managing a million other things but he's missing the obvious that is right in front of him and I think that more than anything else is going to come to bite him in the ass. If I had to place my bets Calgar is probably going to die trying to prove himself to his primarch when he really doesn't need to and its going to come at an incredibly innoportune time.
@@alexiel4406 what about trajan he was pretty well recieved.
I think there is a big difference between a warleader and an imperial successor. One is a specialist and the other a generalist. And of all the Primarchs we know about, Guilliman is the least specialized, a jack of all trades, just like the Emperor was. The only thing he seems to lack is real psykic potential.
And even then thats debatable,every primarch was psychic in some kind of capacity,some more then others
For sanguinus he had effective telekinesis,foresight and luck manipulation
Dorn can make the warp actually die around him
Jaghatai is a speedster and likely has powers pertaining to it
And for guilaman? Id say my bet is on him being extremely perceptive,kind of like the lion
While not as powerful,it likely makes sense
And considering he has the emporors sword,who knows he might get the ability to say manipulate the swords flames as a sort of ranged attack. Probably nothing crazy tho
I disagree about Guilliman being the least specialised. I think out of all of them, he was the best at general governance. Logistics was Perturabo’s thing, but Guilliman was the best at handling tedious administration. I think if anyone was the least specialised, it would be the Lion. Simply because like the first Legion, they are the templates the others were built from. The Lion might not be suited to rule, or to handle administration, or perfect a building. But he was skilled in every way a general should be. His brother’s exceeded him in specific area’s but the Lion seemed to be what the Emperor wanted in a well rounded general and fighter. He might not have been the best, but he was still more than good enough to give him a decent chance against any of his brothers in a war or a duel.
@@OutspokenSeeker What? tedious administration? i dont understand where people get this view of guilliman being some pencil pusher, and that hes only good at being that. He was highly adaptable in war, his army's always supplied, quickly making him able to do conquer planets quicker, and also another reason he had the most marines because he could outfit them all and was smart enough to not only conqueror the planets but also quickly bring them into empire making him able to recruit from them if needed . In 40k He basically writes the art of war. Ya he is a great bureaucrat, hes also a great general, he is a statesmen, like julius caesar ( who is is modeled after )
@@GuthanSlayer he doesn't shy away from a scrap either, infact he seems almost a little too keen to get into it.
@@GuthanSlayer I’m not saying that Guilliman is only good at administration. What I said was that he was the best at it. Where Rogal Dorn could build you a city, Guilliman could find ways to run that city more efficiently than any of his brothers. Of course Guilliman is more than that though. He is also a war leader and a fighter. But I don’t think that he is the jack of all trades general.
Perhaps not an Emperor successor, but maybe a Malcador successor
Thats a really good idea i think
I would had picked Guilliman to build and keep my empire, he has that nerd in em
Imperium secundus had it right. Sanguinius at the throne, the lion as its "Warmaster" and guilliman as its civilian administrator. I would love to see this theme expanded from there, without any of the primarchs left out, Except the two lost ones.
@@mikkovalle7944 Honestly i think that works as well, since we know people like to look up to someone beautiful rather than someone that is pristine in their job, ( sanguinius instead of Guilliman) and the Lion being warmaster fits because his martial morals are unbreakable as well as Guilliman being an Administrator since he is perfection in that regard.
Sanguinius was never "at the throne", dude couldn't be the boss of anything to save his life lol he has no rulership acumen; he was the figurehead and throne-warmer for Secundus but almost all decisive power still rested in Guilliman's hands. Guilliman knew that claiming the throne for Secundus for himself would *seriously* put his loyalty in the eyes of his fellow legions into question, so he was waiting for literally any other loyalist primarch to hand the "title" to; Lion came through the warp first, but he doesn't fully trust Lion, so it went to Sang.
Also, no one cares about beauty lil bro lol; the greatest men throughout history who inspire others the most are the likes of Napoleon, Caesar & Alexander, etc; not pretty-boy jimmy who got a lot of play. Actions go down in history and accrue loyalty from the hearts of men, not a cute face lol
@@KevinJohnson-cv2no im not reading all that but if you don't know about imperius secundus shut the trap
I feel Guilliman is the perfect 'hand of the king' type person. Fulgrim even says before he kills Guilliman that it all rests on him. He's the best person to lead the Imperim in 40k because it's a mess of beuracracy and political backstabbing, but if any Primarch is the 'Heir', it is either Horus or Sanguinius and really my money would be on Sanguinius. If he'd survived the Heresy, the galaxy wouldn't be grimdark.
Guilliman is also humble enough to JUST be a logistician and co-ordinator as evidenced by when he advocated Sanguinius ruler of Imperium Secundus.
The possibility is that, as much as Horus was best fitting to be the Warmaster - the supreme leader of the armies of the Imperium, in the eyes of the Emperor, Guilliman was the best one for the role of the "Peacemaster" - the governor of the Imperium int the times of peace.
I think guilliman was more like a fail safe or backup plan, his first instinct after calth was imperium secundus which I think is indicative of his role in the emperor's plan
My boy Robbie G gets a lot of "hate" for being the poster boy Primarch of the poster boys marines but lets get real he would be uncontested for the role of empire leader aka EMPEROR by all his brothers ;) Other Primarchs would contest each other for other roles like Warmaster but none of them got the brains to run a million worlds Empire.
One grimdark theory is that one of the Lost Primarchs was the closest person to an heir as could be achieved. And that the Emperor buried his memory so thoroughly that his brothers don’t even realize what they lost.
At least one of them was incredibly impactful. You don’t leave that big of a mark upon Horus, Alpharius, Jaghatai, Guilliman, Sanguinius, Russ, and Dorn all at once without being pivotal in some way, probably in many ways.
I always wondered if that was a mistake. Because while every Primarch had a fan in another of his brothers or some impressive feature , none of them are so universally respected. It’s like the writers wanted to tease us but didn’t realize they were overselling.
@@TheSpicyLeg funnly enough,out of them ferrus was the universally respected one as far as we know. Perturabo apparently trusted him enough to tell him of his predicament of seeing the eye of terror,and he was a valiable candidate for the position of warmaster. Horus thought so highly of him that he thought he would have won easly had ferrus been on his side(ironically he says this while he was holding his skull hamlet style). He was baisically the big brother you knew if you had by your side everything would be just fine. It's a shame we know very little of his lore in the great crusade before he died in the heresy
@@TheSpicyLeg Horus was the only one Respected by all of then.
@@ArantyrDarkhand Yes, that was my point. Horus was universally respected, but it gets diluted if the lost Primarchs were also universally respected. Similarly to the idea that Horus was not the first to be found by Big E, but rather Alpharius was, but it was hidden for some reason. It weakens Horus’s betrayal somewhat.
Guilliman, though not perfect, has the ability to join people in a collective way to build and strengthen. Something the imperium needed, otherwise it would fall.
Think you're right Horus was the goldenson but in the unremembered empire Bobby G pushes Sanguinius to be the new Emperor. He's the one people love and will follow. In all honesty none of the Primarchs can replace Big E as they are all elements of him. Question is, which element of the Emperor is MOST important in a figurehead for the Imperium? Bobby G could still be running things behind the scenes with Sanguinius inpsiring the populace.
100%
The difference in Horus and Guilliman's believing astertes could rule is that Horus dismissed humanity as a whole, Guilliman dismissed those who were ineffective, corrupt, or soem form of harm to the overall imperium whenever possible and didn't always replace them with marines.
One Big Question - would the Empire of Man even still be one Empire without the threat of Chaos? Would the Orks really be enough to hold them together? Perhaps the empire that stands, the empire that Chaos is dedicated to ending, only exists because of Chaos. 🤔
I love this comment
There would always be some threat to point a finger at (xeno or warp-born)
@@BDL3035 If humans are good at one thing, its finding a reason to hate something, lol.
Uhh....I thought its established lore that who ever became Warmaster would turn on the EoM. So Malcador and the EoM picked the best choice who could be beaten in civil war. But good enough not seem like he was picked by the EoM to fail. Even though part of the reason the neverborn call Horus the Sacrificed or Sacrificial King was partly because of this. That both the EoM and the Dark Gods always intended Horus to fail and die. In some fluff Chaos even mention that the four hardest if near impossible Primarch's to turn, Sanguineous, the Lion, Dorn and Guillemin. Would have the best chance of winning the Hersey over Horus.
You're correct
This was sort of obvious from all the books I’ve read so far. If there was one primarch that was safe from the “what-happens-after-the-crusade” paranoia, it was Guilliman.
Hell, choosing Roboute for glassing Monarchia is all the evidence you need about what Emperor thought about the future template of Imperium.
I mean he didn’t choose Dorn or Lion, who’d be happy to do it. He chose Roboute who was extremely disturbed by the destruction.
He was gonna give the reins of administration to him. No doubt about it.
You make a great point about Monarchia. The Emperor purposely chose the Ultramarines to show Lorgar what a legion SHOULD look like and how a primarch should behave. He wanted Lorgar and his legion to walk away from that event learning that they should change themselves to be more like Guilliman and the Ultramarines
The Emperor had the ability to appear to anybody in an idealized way, which becomes especially apparent in his interactions with the Primarchs themselves and with others about the Primarchs. While the Primarchs considered him as their father and he appeared to them that way, when he talked ABOUT the Primarchs to others (his Custodes, Malcador or the Mechanicus) that appearance changed completely. It's what makes the Emperor so special and kindof a meta-character. There really isn't any way to pin down his true motives since he appears in a different light to everybody and we're just reading their perception of him, which changes from individual to individual. Which is also the reason why no Primarch could ever be his true heir.
Exactly. Or how the Mechanicus' perception of him is very cold, logical, and machine like
I don't disagree overall with what you are saying but he seems to be playing the Custodes and Malcador as well. The plan was that Primarchs were just to be the ultimate weapons and so the is how the Emporer talks about them to Malcador. I think they were originally were supposed to be but some of them shall we say, grew on him and he might have considered keeping some around as a result post planned heresy. But others, Angron, he would have no issue getting rid of when the time came.
@@brockwilkie6022 There's so many theories as to why he treated some sons like shit and others he treated better but this could be very plausible too. He knew the heresy would happen and figured it'd be a convenient way to get rid of the primarchs as planned but then as time went on some of them grew on him
@@brockwilkie6022 I agree. I don't think Big E actually gives a damn about anything than his plans. Which makes it so interesting that he chooses to appear so favourable to anybody he meets (almost like what a demon or an evil god would do). He's a cutthroat piece of work that's very much "the end justify the means", but at least there's no indication that he does it for himself. It's all for humanity as far as I've read.
Guilliman could never fill his shoes. He even blackmailed Sanguinius and threatened to destroy Imperium Secundus if the Angel allowed the Lion to attack some rebels on his homeworld from orbit, pretty much going back on his word completely because of "his worlds".
I think you are missing a key point. The arch traitor was WAR MASTER. The Emperor foresaw an end to all of the war. After that the war master was never meant to be in charge. I think that’s then when Roboute would’ve been appointed Regent or lord commander. For a time at least until he could give full leadership to regular people.
None were the heir, the emperor wanted mankind to rule itself(obviously with himself in the background). Hence his statement to Lorgar, “It is the Imperium of Mankind”
I would asume that if you had to pick one primarch to return to fix the imperium as it stands in 40k, that the emperor chose guilliman for a good reason. He is the one to fix such issues, cant solve all those problems with the Lion
yeah those High Lords that were originally just fired until they rebelled...you know the Lion would have just killed them outright immediately. Both because of their failure AND because he would have known what would have happened when they were fired and so the most efficient way was to just kill them right away. Guilliman knew what would happen as well but chose to proceed the way he did so they they ended up showing everyone they needed to die in the end, then, in the end, everyone would see that Guilliman was correct. The Lioin would NOT be that patient lol
Has the Emperor ever personally possessed and brought back from death and completely healed any other primarch?
yeah but he was never left with just one to work with in the same way lol
No, but it is to everyone's benefit that he is the only primarch available for the job.
Well there's not much choice. Jaghatai Khan would be going too fast to get anything done. Rogal Dorne would be building forts all the time. Leman Russ is busy sniffing out the tree of life. Ferrus, Vulkan, Corvus and Sanguinius are dead and Lion El’Jonson's is sleeping and forgot to set his alarm clock.
Vulkan is just waiting on his respawn timer. And Corvus is still in the Warp.
Corvus is alive and well he's also hunting Logar
@@lolgisticalofficer233 I think it's that the waagh blast of the generator explosion, and his untold ability to use his essence to tame and use the power of the Waagh blasted him slightly out of time.
By the time he respawned, at least a month passed. He materialized in space... and promptly died. Then resurrected moments later to die again, drifting deeper into the void.
And that's been happening for 9 thousand years. Anytime he was sensed by any device, he died so quickly that he was assumed to be a glitch. How's that for grimdark?
Vulkan is 100% alive, and arguably, was the Emperor's most trusted son.
Vulkan lives! Stomp stomp
Heir? No.
But singularly placed to run an empire.
He was the most obvious, most balanced, replacement for the emperor.
The heresy had to happen. E. Stated to Malchador that it came earlier than expected during his chess match w Malchador in master of mankind book. My guess is that he had a chance to move more to his side before the war and because ot was early. He had to settle for half/half.
I think the Emperor was more like the Lion- he had his secrets and didn't tell his sons about the warp. But I think he liked to think of himself as more like Bobby G. And it makes sense that Bobby G would be a better heir then the Lion.
Roboute would be the best guy to run an empire, Sanguinus would be the figurehead, and Horus is the diplomat.
Can you do a video over how each primarch would’ve run the imperium in the emperors stead
Oh boy. Imagine Angron trying to rule the Imperium
I honestly doubt the Emperor ever planned for any one else than himself ruling the Imperium.
I believe the emperors knew that nothing lasts forever, not even himself. Remember that beautiful poem by Shelley.
Hey Wolf you forgot that the Emperor, while figuratively,playing his future chess game discussing the future of the imperium with Malcador, that he knew whoever became Warmaster, would fall to chaos. Mystery solved. I wish I could site it, but the info is out there.
From a true Night Lord lover and groupie of Talos Valcoran I'd have to admit it will uld have to be Gulliman. But he just doesn't have the emperor's psychic prowess so I'm not sure.
What about the Emperor’s game with Malcador? Emps knew anyone he chose for the position of Warmaster was going to fall to chaos. Perhaps that is what barred Guilliman from being put in a position as Warmaster?
I do actually believe this. He may not be the best fighter, but he’s one of the best generals, THE best statesman, and has the perfect temperament for running an empire (not too harsh, not too detached, not too compassionate).
No he’s not a future Emperor of Man, but he is the perfect Regent.
Even before Horus’ betrayal, I still believe that. Horus miiiiight have been the Imperial figurehead, but Dorn and Guillaman both are the administrative and strategic geniuses. Sanguinius actually could’ve rivalled Horus to the figurehead position. Frankly I believe that, even without chaos, some of the primarchs were destined to revolt. Kurze and Angron come to mind.
Kurze and Angron for sure were just a matter of time regardless of Chaos. Hell, Kurze and his legion were basically already rebels shortly before Horus turned traitor
Plus in First Lord of the Imperium, we learn all this was known if not planned to chose Horus and know him fall to chaos. The Unremembered Empire also shows a good picture of Sanguinius being Emperor as a figurehead, and yet Guilliman still having that organisational first Lord role.
maybe emprah wanted humans to govern themselves, but look how that turned out. the high council of terra and the inquisition were an absolutely political and bureaucratical mess. so emprah winfrey was wrong
Not necessarily. The way I look at it is that the reason things went wrong is because the Emperor wasn't done teaching Humanity, wasn't done mentoring the species. The reason things went wrong is because the High Council was built upon a foundation of half truths and only half learned lessons that only got even more forgotten as time went on. The School year wasn't finished and everyone graduated way too early. Even Guilliman's bureaucratic work post-heresy wasn't finished cuz he got knocked into a coma.
What if Dorn and Perturabo were friends?
I'm not really sold on idea of Guilliman being an heir, but I have to say this:
Firstly, about the choice of the Warmaster. Let's ask a question - what does it reflect in Emperor's view on primarch? My take is as follows: The Emperor needed someone in his stead. The main function of this "someone"is to coordinate the efforts of the forces in the Crusade to ensure it's successful complition without complications. Since the most dangerous and immediate external threats were eliminated or suppressed, I suppose almost any primarch except the most specialised or deviant ones (like Curze, an example of both highly specialized and deviant primarch) would've been sufficient in terms of actual organisational and military talents, but yeah, it's obvious one should choose among the greatest generals. The second crucial requirement was to be able to archive compliance with your orders from many different forces of the Imperium involved in the Crusade, most notable - the other Primarchs and their Legions. From what I see, that's all there is to it, choosing the one who will fit these criteria the best. And while Guilliman and Horus were both exceptionally good military leaders and strategist, the former at the time did not possessed the skills, or, perhaps even, the mindset, that would've allowed him to develop better standings with his brothers and to play political game with his peers successfully. And I don't believe it to be caused by some core flaw in his personality, it was simply a product of his previous experience. He really changed over the course of Horus Heresy and his subsequent resurrection. He gained better understanding of his brothers, of his flaws. He became more grounded, bitter and he is willing now to fight tooth and nails to ensure humanity's prosperity. I think the current Guilliman would've been more than suited to be a Warmaster in the Emperor's eyes.
My second argument is about Guilliman's feelings towards being used and similarities with the Emperor. I don't see the Emperor as someone cold. On the contrary, he is a man of passion - judging from what we know. To be a leader you ought to be passionate. And his, and his son's main passion is the dream of saved humanity. This is what unites them, different primarchs had different reasons to follow Emperor, some were forced to (Angron), some were bound by word (Mortarion, Lion), many joined because they were swayed by his charisma, but I think Guilliman was the one who followed Emperor explicitly because of his vision of the future. He shared the dream and for me seemed to be more driven by it than any of his brothers. I think it's the similarity Kor Phaeron noticed. And, since they are both driven by this dream and understand necessity of its fruition, they are ready to go to great lengths to pave the way to it. Thats is the main point for me of the passage describing Guilliman's feelings towards this revelation - he is pained by the hypocrisy and manipulation, but, ultimately, he understands - he embraced the lie because it was needed, and repeated it to everyone who asked. This is also a similarity with the Emperor - they are able to make sacrifices when they are necessary. Perhaps, if we'll give Gulliman couple tens of thousands years he'll grow to be spitting image of his dad.
A deep dive into the dark age of technology. Come on Rho, make this happen!!!!!!!!!!!
Oculus imperious has a couple of good videos on drake age technology and men of iron
Sorry @ethandavies8227
Why would the Emperor come down so hard on Magnus, if Malcador and Big E knew that whoever was being promoted to Warmaster was gonna fall into Chaos? By Malcodor's own confession, they planned for, if not actively pushed the Primarchs to compete against each other and manipulated them to the point that they were all competing for the attention and approval of their father. I myself am conflicted morally and ethically over the Emperor's actions and decisions. I'm a big fan of the Emperor he's quite a character however over the last couple of years as the lore was being refined and updated and so forth I really started critically thinking and questioning the Emperor's true motivations actions and decisions. . . Was he indeed anything other than a genuinely extraordinary charismatic dictator with a god complex, playing god, willing to kill anyone or anything that didn't bend the knee and submit to his will? He used his sons as tools to be discarded when they no longer served his purpose. Does that sound like the character of a benevolent ruler who has anyone's best interest other than his own at heart? The Character of a man who truly loves his family will put their interest before his own, he will sacrifice his needs, wants, and desires for his family. I guess the real question is. . . Did the Emperor love anyone besides himself? I don't think the Emperor had any intention ever of having an heir or stepping down from power and why would he if he thought he was gonna live forever? Compliance is just a fancy word for slavery. How many peaceful people/civilizations were brutally crushed simply because they wanted to govern themselves or peacefully believe in a creator something greater than themselves?
Maybe saw a line where lord of ultramar was the best choice logistically since he had so much under his belt by the time big E found him?
Good video as always, thanks. I disagree with your reasoning for Horus.....I think the key to the Emperors vision for Horus is in the title he gave him. He called him Warmaster......but in the books, we see that the Emperors vision was for an Imperium of Man that eventually would not need to go to war. That he did not give the Emperor the title of Regent, Heir or Lord Commander was a clear indication of him not seeing Horus as the heir.
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I do not think the Emperor viewed any of the 20 as heirs. They were specialist tools for respective jobs....Magnus for the Astronomican, Guilliman for the administration and organisation, Dorn the Protector, Mannus, Perturabo and Vulkan the builders....Sanguinius the conscience and heart etc. It would be humans that took over as heirs eventually....but the Emperor did not see that happening for millenia, hence why the need for the Primarchs in the interim.
Malcador would never take the role....he is an advisor, a right hand, a back door statesman, not a ruler.
Guilliman was always intended for Lord Commander I think...but not an heir. I think he does most reflect the Emperor as he is the ultimate pragmatist and will always find a way to achieve his goals....that was the strongest aspect of the Emperor I think.
But great video as i say....keep em coming!
Maybe this was already said. But do you think emps abandons angrons gladiators as a punishment for declining him?
Guilliman really is the Emperor's true heir. He is a builder. He raises humanity up and thats important. Hes also already proven he can run an empire.
Big E would have chosen Malcador IMO. They were on pretty much the same exact wave length in their vision, and perhaps most importantly Malcador is human which is what Big E wanted.
My Credits are on good ol' Number 11 being the original intended Heir to end 'em all!
At least, until The Emperor had him all ended!
Other Primarchs might be better fighters or speakers but that power is nothing compared to having the Imperium running even slightly more efficiently. Imagine if Guilliman increased the productive output of the Imperium by just 1% spread that across a million worlds and think if the army that was just raised. Being really good at swinging a sword doesn't mean much if an extra 50 regiments land in front of you
Funnily enough if I were the Emperor I'd put Vulkan at the top of my list. Not because of the whole niceness/humanness he has which are nice bonus'. But he's also stable and the fact that he doesn't want such things is a big plus in my book. Then there's his perpetual nature giving him a bit more leeway in the risk department than his brothers. He's also on the lower scale of risk seeking. He also of all the primarch's probably has the most technical know how beyond even the likes of Ferus and Perterabo with his ability to manufacture his artifacts which probably puts him in the best position to continue a lot of the non-psyker projects that the emperor was working on and if he had the support of Magnus as an advisor in those matters along with the Sigilite I think the Imperium could be cooking with gas. He's also relatively well liked by his brothers which doesn't hurt.
Logistics, tactics, production and technology wins wars. Not how good with a sword you are.
Nahh sanguinnius would be made the imperial messenger pigeon
Guilliman is a better reagent.
Hmm, I could see that in a poetic sense. Logar wants to place himself in opposition to Guilliman. One has the Emperor's face and the other has the Emperor's soul. I'm not sure I see it though. Guilliman seems to be his adopted parent's kid more so than anything else. It seems like it's just salt from a salty man
Yeah the idea of seeing which primearch is worthy to inherit humanity is interesting
There should a be a video on loyalist primarchs returning as traitors and vice versa
all i got to go on is the dawn of fire series when it comes to guilliman but the way he is written in those and dark imperium he's the most human of them especially when it comes to anger. If not for the nails in angrons head id say guilliman more represents the emporers rage then anything.
If we are at this topic, I have to bring up the lost primarchs, which atribute of the emperor cant be found in the primarchs and could be part of the missing ones ?
Lorgar was the one responsible for the Imperial Cult (The Faith worshipping the Emperor)
So it is no stretch that Lorgar might have been planning for Roboute's ascension as leader of the imperium
and the Emperors ascension to becoming a true god of mankind just like Lorgar wanted
Remember Even when some GW authors did undermine some of the Emperors Achievements that old lore keft in mysteries , the Master if Mankind is the greatest Empire bilder. Knowing , calculating what to do at wich moment and what Ressourcen move to use for any task or goal to build the Imperium
A few points that I would like to make.
1) It's ironic that Lorgar said Guilliman was an open book when just a few books later, he realised that he never knew him.
2) Are you sure that Lord-Commander came AFTER Horus rebelled ? I would have thought it was before as Dorn said the position was Guiiliman's originally ?
3) Regarding the Heir? You are correct that the Big-E would prefer Humans to rule themselves BUT .... that was in an ideal scenario where the Big-E could stand down as Humanity could govern themselves.
In the Non-Ideal scenario? When the Emperor was side-lined or stopped mid-way ? That is when the Big-E would need an Heir...
Edit :
One important point I would like to make.
There is a difference between Guilliman during 30K and 40K.
Big-G in 40K is BECOMING like the Emperor, see how he is making compromises and 'lying / using ' people like the Emperor , see how Big-G understands WHY the Emperor made the decisions he did and is making the same.
I would argue that 30K Guilliman is an ECHO of a YOUNG and INNOCENT version of the Emperor.
40K Guilliman ? He is becoming an ECHO of the MATURE version of the Emperor.
Breakdowns of Guilliman and how he's changed in the past 10 years just makes me like him even more
I agree that Horus was always the Emperor's choice but there was a lot of undeserved favoritism between the Emp and Horus. He wasn't the best choice, The emp just had a crush on him. The angel was always the best choice. Horus himself admitted it at one point in the early books of. H.H.
So the Emperor can see the future, and this means he had to of seen the Horus Heresy coming and that he would lose half of his sons to the Ruinous Powers. This likely means he knew whoever became War Master would ultimately become the head traitor. This is why The Emperor never choose someone like Sanguinius or Guilliman to be War Master.
I think whoever was named warmaster would face the full court press by chaos. Perhaps the emperor knew this and spared a more useful tool for a rainy day.
Yes
I like how they reestablished that Primarchs are galaxy needle movers and makes you realize how powerful most factions were before and despite the massiveness and firepower they have in 40k, they're still watered down versions of themselves.
Just thinking of another loyal son or Valdor returning to form a tag team with GMan, while possible, you can't help but see it as a little too much of a boost for the Imperium but in a cool way because I'd like to see it.
Vulkan was not alone of all his brothers in hating war. Lorgar also did not want to be a general.
Or Perturabo, he didn't want to wage war either.. its partially what broke him.
Surprisingly many primarchs didn't actually like having to go to war
And now I’m trying to imagine Horus with a toupee…
My thinking is that Horus was made Warmaster because of his super charisma. This would make it easier to sell the emperial truth to the world's they were trying to bring in to compliance. This would be the most efficient way, and the emperor was apparently in a hurry to get everything done.
This, of course, excludes the likelihood that the emperor planned for the half the primarks to rebel anyway in some step in an insane plan to obtain god hood.
G man more a support class kinda guy i think. If horus never turned and he had to take over i think as much as he felt better at leading g man would rather support horus than ever do so. He may have been the lord of ultramar but it was so set up it could run with him not being to involved unless things were dire
I haven't read all the books so can someone tell me how the Emperor is a perpetual. The damage to his body was physical so why not let him die and come back like a perpetual, why entomb him. Was the only reason that he needed to control the Golden Throne and protect earth from the Webway breach.
Regarding this video I do not think any of the Primarchs could be heir. Each would have been given a responsibility but none of them to rule. Guilliman would have been responsible for pulling any new worlds into the Imperium once humanity had complete access to the webway. Entire sectors would have needed to be organized.
In the battle with Horus to what i read the damage done to emperor is both in the physical and the warp he exsists in both. And by placing the emperor on the throne his job now becomes to keep the light of the astronomican going but also keep the warp at bay via the warpway door. I dont think its as easy as flicking a switch on and off.
My theory just my opinion Big E is gaining power having 1000's of psykers sacrificed daily too feed him this was always his plan... Plot twist Big E is a Chaos god... Or soon to be reborn a GOD.
i keep my trap shut.
Very good video! excellent content, thank you very much!
Is it not fair to assume the emperor knew all the events that would unfold even till now, his choices made based on the best possible outcome for humanity and that no matter who he chose he already knew the ending?
What Rho misses is that Horus was only warmaster because the Emperor deemed him the best choice to rebel. He and Malcador struck a balance between somoke great enough to be placed above his brothers yet not so great enough to defeat the light.
Personally I think It was always ment to the Sanguinius. A Figurehead with no desire to rule. Horus to handle deplomacy and to keep everyone happy. Gulliman to do the background work. The Emperor imo never intended to stay Emperor. I think he ment to fade into the shadows again after the great crusade. The only one to take his place is Sanguinius. He was designed to be the figurehead but to have no desire to rule. Thats my opinion.
Also Praise the Lion!
Something people miss with the Emperor's parenting style is that they are viewing it from a modern lens. He's from like the dawn of civilization and throughout almost all of history children have been viewed as extensions of their parents wills. Children were tools meant to carry on the family name, legacy, and preserve and expand upon the work of their parents. Throughout all that time parents have loved their children just as much as they do now, and they were even more important to their legacy, as things such as bloodline, lineage, and family meant a great deal more then.
What about alonius pious if he survived what role do you think he would’ve had in the imperium the new warmaster?
Q: Is Guilliman the true heir of the emperium?
A: Yes. Guilliman is the embodiment of the emperor's humanity.
I think a big problem with the Hours being the obvious choice is that, the Emperor and Malcador knew that whoever became Warmaster would fall to Chaos. Going off of this logic then surely Horus would have been a sacrifice moreso than his personal choice?
Sorry @ethandavies8227
Why would the Emperor come down so hard on Magnus, if Malcador and Big E knew that whoever was being promoted to Warmaster was gonna fall into Chaos? By Malcodor's own confession, they planned for, if not actively pushed the Primarchs to compete against each other and manipulated them to the point that they were all competing for the attention and approval of their father. I myself am conflicted morally and ethically over the Emperor's actions and decisions. I'm a big fan of the Emperor he's quite a character however over the last couple of years as the lore was being refined and updated and so forth I really started critically thinking and questioning the Emperor's true motivations actions and decisions. . . Was he indeed anything other than a genuinely extraordinary charismatic dictator with a god complex, playing god, willing to kill anyone or anything that didn't bend the knee and submit to his will? He used his sons as tools to be discarded when they no longer served his purpose. Does that sound like the character of a benevolent ruler who has anyone's best interest other than his own at heart? The Character of a man who truly loves his family will put their interest before his own, he will sacrifice his needs, wants, and desires for his family. I guess the real question is. . . Did the Emperor love anyone besides himself? I don't think the Emperor had any intention ever of having an heir or stepping down from power and why would he if he thought he was gonna live forever? Compliance is just a fancy word for slavery. How many peaceful people/civilizations were brutally crushed simply because they wanted to govern themselves or peacefully believe in a creator something greater than themselves?
Perfect timing, Rho! I just started my lunch break and the vid dropped.
Guilliman to set the foundations.
Rogal Dorn to build the future.
Ferrus Manus to range wide and far.
Vulkan for humanity.
Sanguinius to keep the soul.
These 5 could build. Rule. And succeed.
Remember Wolf Lord, when Imperium Secundus was established? Lion El Johnson was made Lord Protector. But Sanguinius was named Emperor. Just because Horus was named Warmaster doesn't automatic qualify him for the role of Emperor. I thought Sanguinius would make the best Emperor though. I think he was the most respected. Corax hated Horus.
Sanguinius was to be heir and symbol of the highest ideals of mankind, Guilliman would be the Chancellor/Prime Minister, and Horus was to be the leader of the armed forces while the emperor conquered the webway with Magnus and moved to the next galaxy. Guilliman was the 2nd choice after Sang, the contingency plan. All did indeed fail, with thw heir Sanguinius dead. Thus, Guilliman stepped up as the backup.
Guilliman is the perfect son... pre-heresy. An empire-builder, a true fan of the Imperial Truth, an absolutely excellent logician. Should Terra fall, his 500 worlds would be the only bastion (read:Imperium Secundus) that could furnish the legions. He resembles his father in plans over plans over plans. But he most resembles him in ambition. Sure Horus was the Warmaster, but Guilliman would have been the Quartermaster, if his brothers needed supplies, and the Munitorum was too slow: Bobby G has your back, brother!
I would not trust ANYTHING Kor Phaeron says, he obviously was "guiding" Logar towards chaos. But to your point, yes the Emporer definitely did not intend for the Primarchs to rule humanity. There was not a plan for one of him to be replaced by a Primarch. Guilliman could run things better than most like Rogal said. It would have been better for Rogal to focus on Terra and Guilliman to command the Imperium. But as you said, he did not have the love and respect of other Primarchs on the same level, not his gift. But humanity ruling was always supposed to be in a peaceful galaxy, 40k is far from that. Marines bodies, and more importantly, their minds just work more efficiently, especially Guilliman's line. Guilliman can also trust his men to not play politics. It makes sense for him to people competent Marine leaders in commanding situations during what is pretty much martial law. Guilliman was training his men during the Crusade to be able to be administrators.
If Sanguinius showed up I think Guilliman would gladly give up the headship position so that he could focus on running things. Let Sanguinius deal with the politicians and kissing babies lol. He gave up running his own Ultramar willingly during the Heresy.
Guilliman builds galactic empires like a beaver builds dams. He could plant a flag in a pile of dirt, and in a thousand years a galactic empire would be built. How much trade policy, planetary defense, integrated supply chains, government did the other primearchs exhibit. Not much beyond a world or two. The 500 worlds of Ultramar retained their character for 12k years after G "death". I agree though, he would Not be emperor. He's a Priime Minister or COO. He be more Malcador, not the emperor but definitely the Primarch making decisions.
Being new to the 40k scene. ( 4years of lightly dabbing in the hobby and listening to the lore.) I got the idea that there are 4 Main Primarchs to take the mantle of responsibility in assisting Humanity in guiding it to a prosperous and long existence. Guilliman as the Logistical one.
Lorgar ( Had he not fallen) the theocratic leader.
Sanguinious as the Charismatic leader of all.
And Finally either or both the Gorgon and Rogal Dorn.
The rest are mostly supporting Primarchs. Not all would be in position of the same Power but different degrees.
Some like the Khan, would probably be a General or a Rouge Trader type.
And Rogal Dorn would held the defense along with Perturabo ( had he stayed loyal).
Maybe I'm just spouting nonsense but if the Emperor is as logical as he is supposed to be. Then this is what it would look like.
Horus is the odd man out.
For some reason I get the feeling that the Emperor would always have to get rid of him.
I think there are a lot of assumptions about the role of 'Warmaster' and that because Horus was given this position above his brothers, the Emperor would give Horus any position just below himself... I think Warmaster was a very specific role of continuing the crusade. Were no one to turn against the Imperium and the Emperor disappeared, Horus would still be Warmaster and in charge of the crusade, Sanguinius likely made Monarch (as much as he'd hate it) Guilliman would be lord commander, Dorn still the Pretorian of the sol system, Magnus would steer the astronomican and guard the webway... etc etc
Makes perfect sense Bobby didn't get picked as Warmaster. Big E had foresight remember. He saw what would happen to the Warmaster no matter who he picked.
So as much as he wanted to pick Bobby as Warmaster. He couldn't as the ONLY one that could rebuild the imperium would be The bigboy blue.
I would say no. Roboute is a politician with a strategic sense for everything. From supply lines to law and order. He has the unsurpassed abillity to set up systems and supporting assets to get stuff from A to Z. Its a great skill to have. But in the end even Guilliman is missing some facets of the Emperors total being that are absolute requirements to be Emperor, Phychic might being the first on the list to cross out.
Horus was the obvious choise becouse the Emperor, found him. first. He was not broken like Mortarion, or Angron. Nor did he fall into a prime example of human capabillity like Roboute did. Horus was taught at the Emperors own side, and the Emperor could influence him the most. Which means the Emperor could steer Horus to a destiny the Emperor made for him and instill in him the skills, capabillity and mindset required to rule.
So what if Sanguinius returned. Mind you, Guiliman has crowned a Emperor before. On Macragge. His brother, Sanguinius.
However, whichever Primarch returns now is not important. What is important is that whatever Primarch returns is one gifted for war.
The Imperium currently is in the worst state it has ever been in. Even in the time of the Unification Wars when the Emperor just revealed himself the fate of mankind was not so fickle. Guilliman was a utter REQUIREMENT to be restored as one of the first. His capabillity for logistics on a galaxy wide scale, is a utter requirement to sustain the effort that is needed right now. I feel in a strange way what the Imperium needs now. Is Lion el' Johnson.
It needs a warrior and a peerless stragetician and the Lion is a utter exemplar of millitairy knowhow and warcraft.' Now even if the word bearers manage to influence a Primarch as imbittered as Lorgar, in the end, he is a Primarch. Embittered or no, no amount of bitterness is going to sustain him or his legion in a fight against a organized imperium let by Roboute in its logistics and the Lion in the field.
To summarize. No Primarch can ever replace The Emperor. What we are looking at is a Imperium that is currently as broken as Terra was during the Unification wars. Its however on a much grander scale. The Indomitus crusades are basicly to the Imperium what the Unification Wars where to old Terra. So long as the right Primarch returns, at the right time. The Imperium has a chance. On that set of criterea Roboute simply had to be the first, as in the lore going back he is THE authority on world building, economies, supplies, logistics, law, order. He is the organizer and lawmaker every company wished they had. So long as the Primarchs that return are in a order that makes sense the Imperium has a chance.
if not..
May the Emperor watch over us all.
I know you play Devil's advocate Rho, but let's be honest. Human led Imperium as a concept was tried for 10k years and it failed utterly. If Guilliman did not wrestle power from High Lords of Terra hands those blundering fools would concentrate all the forces on Terra, or whatever place they would try to evacuate to, handing Abaddon his victory. Malcador might have had some badass moments but overall he is a fool. Human lead Imperium concept that made his panties wet ended up being contributing factor to Horus Heresy (Horus mentioned early on how frustrated he was with heavy taxation of freshly conquered planets by incompetent administratum), Inquisition that we all know tends to create probably as many problems as it solves, seriously to me Malcador is this hyped sage character that in the end acts like teenage or late twenties Redditor. Heck if he survived he would probably end up making videos how "real human lead Imperium was never properly implemented, and last 10k of shitshow was not real human lead Imperium".
If there is option of using stronger, smarter and not as easily corrupted Astartes to keep shit in check than it not only should be used, but must be used, especially in current situation.
I would contend that Guiliman was indeed the heir apparent to the throne of the Imperium itself, but that position was never meant to be inherited so the Primarchs instead competed for the next highest position of Warmaster - but being warmaster and being the Imperial Regeant are two fundamentally different roles that require different skillsets. Being the Warmaster is a job that requires the person to manage the egos of the various other generals effectively so they can most effectively accomplish short and mid-term goals. Being the Imperial Regent means building infrastructure for the long-term post-crusade fate of humanity - and that means dealing with the Webway Project one way or another. Magnus was never going to be capable of directly organizing and running the Webway Project . . . . so the only real alternative would have been to create diplomatic relationships with the Eldar directly.
In my opinion, uniting with a humbled Eldar remnant was likely always "plan B" . . . . I just doubt Big E realized there was going to be a fucking 10k year loading period between plan A going to shit and actually launching plan B lmao
If something had gone wrong, then Horus or Sanguinius would have been heir apparent. But if everytjing had gone RIGHT and the Crusade was a success, the Gulliman would have been the best ruler in peace. I still think he would prefer someone above him though since he thrives as middle-management.
Sanguinius had a line saying that he wouldnt have wanted the titlebof Warmaster, because it would have restricted him to only ruling in the theater of war. He didnt want to limit himself and was more interested in what came after the Crusade.
I think it is interesting to think about which Primarchs were useful during the crusade vs peacetime. Some like Angron and Kurze would probably have gone the way of the Thunder Warriors. Meanwhile Gulliman and ideally Lorgar would have thrived in maintaining the empire.
The only primarchs who truly understood and loved humans were Sanguinius and Vulkan. The rest of the primarchs saw themselves as separate from humanity. Guilliman included. The only difference is that Guilliman (and to a lesser extent Dorn and Corax) recognised that his primary duty is to protect humanity. Guilliman still considers himself separate to and above the concerns of humans (this is evident in Godblight).
Simple. Robot Gilligan was meant for the Imperium of Mankind. Hours Ruppeecalled was meant for the Great Crusade. Rowboat Girlyman would run it
I am not an Ultramarine hater, I just totally don't get RG... he is at best Cabinet Level administration, most of his family are MP level and the only dude that was epic got killed off by the Emperor right before the Horus attacked the Emperor for killing his bestie.
I really think that the Emperor knew that the Warmaster would have fallen to chaos AND I really think he had chosen Horus for this reason.. because he was expendable.. they (the primarch) all are BUT some more than others.. same goes for Angron and all the other traitors.. I mean.. the Emperor bargained to be able to create the Primarchs.. so, probably, he made some to be "traded" and other to remain faithful.. just my idea
Horus = good, immediate choice for Warmaster. But, leaves Guilliman as perfect back up plan if everything goes t's up - like it did