I just watched a video from Nickkrush about backloading your hand grip, where your disc is making more contact to the disc and/or grip is tighter using the back fingers during your BH throw to help with a deeper pocket and nose down. I played a round yesterday and I noticed the cue gave me a very noticeable increase in spin. I'm curious if backloading your BH is something you heard or tried.
I normally ‘full load’ so I’m already backloaded but I also have a good amount of pressure at the front. I actually started off this session trying to loosen the front load and so there was more back than front loading and it felt good on some throws but on others I had some slippage and had to increase the front load. I hit similar max speeds and nose angles but I got the max speeds more often when going back to full loading. I think many people are more likely to pronate when using thumb pressure and so back loading can help reduce pronation by reducing thumb pressure. I have an extremely short vid about thumb placement and nose up risk where I explain it while holding a disc to show what I mean.
I think all that really matters for nose angle is that the arm swing motion is steeper than the tilt of the rim near release (aka the nose). You can keep the forearm rotation steady and then lift the arm during the swing to increase the steepness of the swing to be above the tilt of the rim near release to be nose down, or without lifting the arm during the swing you can tilt the disc with supination / pronation to tilt it below the swing path, or both. The first way is most obviously seen via an exaggerated inverted swoop and the 2nd is most obvious with an exaggerated turn the key.
I have a wrist curl but I don't focus on curling it. It happens naturally by trying to keep a loose wrist, at full reach back the wrist extends out slightly then at the pull it rebounds and curls in.
Yeah it's ideal if it happens naturally, but I'm trying to train my wrist to want to do more of it than it naturally has been doing, so I'm doing it deliberately to train the muscle memory so it can happen automatically later. Also, when I try to focus less on pulling, I need something else to focus on to avoid pulling my normal amount, hah, so focusing on wrist curl seemed like a good placeholder since I was already doing that as well.
@@disc-golf-neil I'm not sure if it's something you have to actively curl in. I would like to know if you've tried focusing more on keeping the wrist fluid/loose and letting it curl in naturally from the pull and snap naturally at the hit by keeping it fluid like a whip. Lately I've been trying to get away with lessening my grip pressure overall, but putting priority on back loaded to keep it nose down, to let my wrist and arm overall be more fluid and whippy.
@@ViJt-oq5nq I have 100 to 150 less RPM if I don't try to curl my wrist more. When I don't try to curl my wrist, my wrist feels to force pushing it into flexion and wants to resist it. It's probably an intuitive feel of "oh now, this force is going to totally collapse my wrist into flexion if I don't add some resistance". Also probably some racket sport muscle memory for 1 hand backhands where my wrist is used to resist the heavier feeling racket due to it being elongated away from further from the wrist.
@@ViJt-oq5nq yeah sorta, in 1 hand BH in racket sports the leverage of the longer racket can make the pull into wrist flexion a bit harder so I think my wrist learned to engage harder to ensure it doesn't get whipped too hard into flexion on the BH. Also, depending on how far down / up you hold on the handle, if the butt of the handle extends a bit below the bottom of the palm, it can feel uncomfortable to go into full wrist flexion, the butt of the handle starts pushing into the wrist so you can get some further muscle memory developed to not go fully into wrist flexion because of that, but I generally gripped low enough on the handle to not have that issue, but yeah.
I think your "less-pull-with-wrist-curl" throws had less wobble, by a pretty significant amount. In addition to the lower nose angle. I think the "less-pull-with-wrist-curl" method is better for you across the board. I think the deeper pocket method you're using has you turned back around a touch more, and something about bringing it in so far into the right pec I think puts the disc on a bad angle as it pulls through, which is causing the issues with the angles. Even your launch angle was higher. I'm also personally not sure anyone really gets into the deep pocket, and that it's more of an aspirational goal. I've had people give examples of the "deep pocket" and the disc is going about as deep as the sternum, and not really under the pec of the throwing arm. But I do like the intentionality of it though, but not at the expense of good form everywhere else. 🙂
Yeah that's why I'm gonna stick to this for a bit to get used to it and then compare again later to see if it's still performing better. I've tried a 'loose' arm before and I was just always slower and weaker with it and no improved stats, but having something to shift my pulling focus onto (wrist curl) seems to have been key rather than just trying to do 'less' of something without anything active to focus on (when trying to be passively more loose). As for people who get deep, I think you can see gannon getting deep in the slow mo form vid, and then this iconic pic of wiggins from coach chris where the disc is barley passed the middle of the chest but the shoulder angle does look quite wide: instagram.com/p/CsXu7J3Ou7F/?hl=en But I'm assuming they got to that level of form kinda more indirectly over a long period of time rather than just trying to drive it as deep as possible early on in their form.
@@disc-golf-neil yeah that's about as deep as I ever see it, and it's rarely on the disc golf course. I watch so many slomos (Jomez, etc) that the true deep pocket is so rare, it only stands out when it happens, since the norm is a more shallow pocket, even for pros at the highest level. For example that Luke Taylor kid that was ripping discs farther than most - every throw was from a shallow pocket. And he's a small guy with short arms, and narrow shoulders.
@@NickCarroll yeah, there's something else about Luke I can't quite place that seems different. If I had to say he looked pretty upright and rotational, did you get a similar feeling?
@@disc-golf-neil Absolutely! And it bothered me, too. Like I hear it's recommended to sort of hunch over a bit, but he's basically straight up, and completely flat when he rotates. I'm a bit jealous to be honest. I can't do that right now to save my life! 😂
No, I kind of want to use it more since I seem to more easily get nose down with it, but it just feels a bit off to me usually when I try sticking with it and then I switch back to my default F1P0 alignment. I should re-test it again though with my more recent focus on wrist curl. I have had some really far throws for me with that grip, I'm just not as consistent with it. The slightly off feeling it gives me makes other parts of my form want to compensate and adjust I think. Also, lately I've been getting easier access to nose down it seems without focusing on it and while using my default most comfortable F1P0 alignment so I'm less tempted to use F1P-3.
@@gustavblom8297 For me the only downside is that if you aren't used to it the difference in how the disc is oriented could lead to other unexpected form adjustments to compensate. Also, since it makes the thumb more likely to be further in front and / or deeper into the flight plate, there might be some risk of thumb pressure encouraging nose-up-pronation for people who are already susceptible / tempted / have muscle memory for pronating the wrist whereas F1P0 is easier to keep the thumb above the index finger which supports the thumb pressure from underneath and with that support it feels like there's less urge to pronate.
I would be interested to see you actually play a round. To see how your proceeds so far in a real course scenario. Would also be interesting know to which one is more consistent
I do have some full round vids on my channel but not with either of these cues. In the last few months I've won an MA3 and two MA2's and a non-sanctioned doubles at the austin open course (some holes shortened) while making these kinds of form changes, sometimes just a few days before the tourney. Seems like aside from some initial inconsistency while getting used to the change, there's quite a bit of flexibility to change things and still be able to hit lines similarly if you have decent fundamentals.
Simon Lizotte said in a video that he only pulls at the end. Simon stated that if you pull early then you are always slowing down your swing.
I just watched a video from Nickkrush about backloading your hand grip, where your disc is making more contact to the disc and/or grip is tighter using the back fingers during your BH throw to help with a deeper pocket and nose down. I played a round yesterday and I noticed the cue gave me a very noticeable increase in spin. I'm curious if backloading your BH is something you heard or tried.
I normally ‘full load’ so I’m already backloaded but I also have a good amount of pressure at the front.
I actually started off this session trying to loosen the front load and so there was more back than front loading and it felt good on some throws but on others I had some slippage and had to increase the front load. I hit similar max speeds and nose angles but I got the max speeds more often when going back to full loading.
I think many people are more likely to pronate when using thumb pressure and so back loading can help reduce pronation by reducing thumb pressure.
I have an extremely short vid about thumb placement and nose up risk where I explain it while holding a disc to show what I mean.
I think all that really matters for nose angle is that the arm swing motion is steeper than the tilt of the rim near release (aka the nose).
You can keep the forearm rotation steady and then lift the arm during the swing to increase the steepness of the swing to be above the tilt of the rim near release to be nose down, or without lifting the arm during the swing you can tilt the disc with supination / pronation to tilt it below the swing path, or both.
The first way is most obviously seen via an exaggerated inverted swoop and the 2nd is most obvious with an exaggerated turn the key.
I have a wrist curl but I don't focus on curling it. It happens naturally by trying to keep a loose wrist, at full reach back the wrist extends out slightly then at the pull it rebounds and curls in.
Yeah it's ideal if it happens naturally, but I'm trying to train my wrist to want to do more of it than it naturally has been doing, so I'm doing it deliberately to train the muscle memory so it can happen automatically later.
Also, when I try to focus less on pulling, I need something else to focus on to avoid pulling my normal amount, hah, so focusing on wrist curl seemed like a good placeholder since I was already doing that as well.
@@disc-golf-neil I'm not sure if it's something you have to actively curl in.
I would like to know if you've tried focusing more on keeping the wrist fluid/loose and letting it curl in naturally from the pull and snap naturally at the hit by keeping it fluid like a whip.
Lately I've been trying to get away with lessening my grip pressure overall, but putting priority on back loaded to keep it nose down, to let my wrist and arm overall be more fluid and whippy.
@@ViJt-oq5nq I have 100 to 150 less RPM if I don't try to curl my wrist more.
When I don't try to curl my wrist, my wrist feels to force pushing it into flexion and wants to resist it. It's probably an intuitive feel of "oh now, this force is going to totally collapse my wrist into flexion if I don't add some resistance".
Also probably some racket sport muscle memory for 1 hand backhands where my wrist is used to resist the heavier feeling racket due to it being elongated away from further from the wrist.
@@disc-golf-neil Gotcha, so it's more you have to break muscle memory extension from racquet sports by forcing it into flexion?
@@ViJt-oq5nq yeah sorta, in 1 hand BH in racket sports the leverage of the longer racket can make the pull into wrist flexion a bit harder so I think my wrist learned to engage harder to ensure it doesn't get whipped too hard into flexion on the BH.
Also, depending on how far down / up you hold on the handle, if the butt of the handle extends a bit below the bottom of the palm, it can feel uncomfortable to go into full wrist flexion, the butt of the handle starts pushing into the wrist so you can get some further muscle memory developed to not go fully into wrist flexion because of that, but I generally gripped low enough on the handle to not have that issue, but yeah.
I think your "less-pull-with-wrist-curl" throws had less wobble, by a pretty significant amount. In addition to the lower nose angle. I think the "less-pull-with-wrist-curl" method is better for you across the board.
I think the deeper pocket method you're using has you turned back around a touch more, and something about bringing it in so far into the right pec I think puts the disc on a bad angle as it pulls through, which is causing the issues with the angles. Even your launch angle was higher.
I'm also personally not sure anyone really gets into the deep pocket, and that it's more of an aspirational goal. I've had people give examples of the "deep pocket" and the disc is going about as deep as the sternum, and not really under the pec of the throwing arm. But I do like the intentionality of it though, but not at the expense of good form everywhere else. 🙂
Yeah that's why I'm gonna stick to this for a bit to get used to it and then compare again later to see if it's still performing better. I've tried a 'loose' arm before and I was just always slower and weaker with it and no improved stats, but having something to shift my pulling focus onto (wrist curl) seems to have been key rather than just trying to do 'less' of something without anything active to focus on (when trying to be passively more loose).
As for people who get deep, I think you can see gannon getting deep in the slow mo form vid, and then this iconic pic of wiggins from coach chris where the disc is barley passed the middle of the chest but the shoulder angle does look quite wide: instagram.com/p/CsXu7J3Ou7F/?hl=en
But I'm assuming they got to that level of form kinda more indirectly over a long period of time rather than just trying to drive it as deep as possible early on in their form.
@@disc-golf-neil yeah that's about as deep as I ever see it, and it's rarely on the disc golf course. I watch so many slomos (Jomez, etc) that the true deep pocket is so rare, it only stands out when it happens, since the norm is a more shallow pocket, even for pros at the highest level. For example that Luke Taylor kid that was ripping discs farther than most - every throw was from a shallow pocket. And he's a small guy with short arms, and narrow shoulders.
@@NickCarroll yeah, there's something else about Luke I can't quite place that seems different. If I had to say he looked pretty upright and rotational, did you get a similar feeling?
@@disc-golf-neil Absolutely! And it bothered me, too. Like I hear it's recommended to sort of hunch over a bit, but he's basically straight up, and completely flat when he rotates. I'm a bit jealous to be honest. I can't do that right now to save my life! 😂
Do you have video/timestamp where you can see his pocket. Tried to find but backview was only i could find :(
Do you use the f1p-3 grip?
No, I kind of want to use it more since I seem to more easily get nose down with it, but it just feels a bit off to me usually when I try sticking with it and then I switch back to my default F1P0 alignment.
I should re-test it again though with my more recent focus on wrist curl. I have had some really far throws for me with that grip, I'm just not as consistent with it. The slightly off feeling it gives me makes other parts of my form want to compensate and adjust I think.
Also, lately I've been getting easier access to nose down it seems without focusing on it and while using my default most comfortable F1P0 alignment so I'm less tempted to use F1P-3.
Except for it feeling a bit weird are there any downsides to f1p-3?
@@gustavblom8297 For me the only downside is that if you aren't used to it the difference in how the disc is oriented could lead to other unexpected form adjustments to compensate.
Also, since it makes the thumb more likely to be further in front and / or deeper into the flight plate, there might be some risk of thumb pressure encouraging nose-up-pronation for people who are already susceptible / tempted / have muscle memory for pronating the wrist whereas F1P0 is easier to keep the thumb above the index finger which supports the thumb pressure from underneath and with that support it feels like there's less urge to pronate.
I would be interested to see you actually play a round. To see how your proceeds so far in a real course scenario.
Would also be interesting know to which one is more consistent
I do have some full round vids on my channel but not with either of these cues.
In the last few months I've won an MA3 and two MA2's and a non-sanctioned doubles at the austin open course (some holes shortened) while making these kinds of form changes, sometimes just a few days before the tourney.
Seems like aside from some initial inconsistency while getting used to the change, there's quite a bit of flexibility to change things and still be able to hit lines similarly if you have decent fundamentals.