Truck Rant: Homeowner Supplied Equipment and the DIY Trend
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2024
- #betterhvac #hvac #hvactech #hvactechnician #airconditioning #minisplit #dehumidifier #humidity #homeperformance #heating #ventilation #airconditioning #bluecollar #tradesman #comfort #cooling
#heating #iaq #timdestasiohvac
#homeperformance #hvactraining #buildingscience #hvactraining #hvacdesign #ductdesign
I did one complete system on a gut house myself with pulling all permits an ac replacement and ac add on. Not tough work, but took research to learn how to do it properly.
Just wanted to drop in my $0.02 since your "rant" seemed like a genuine desire to have discourse on the topic of DIwhy HVAC. Up front, I chose the DIY route when replacing my home's A/C and furnace (original equipment circa 1994 when the home was constructed).
I've always been hands-on. High school I did welding and auto mechanic classes. College I got into electrical engineering.
Nowadays I write software. Very glamorous.
I got my EPA certificate from a cell phone app. So trendy.
My TH-cam subscriptions include Ted (Anti DIY HVAC) and Chris' (HVACR Videos) channels. From them I gained knowledge. I don't even know how many videos for the past five years watching, simply because I enjoy that type of stuff. Somehow the great Algorithm popped your video up today so here we are.
I get it. Your perspective is not mistaken. Some people don't know what a capacitor is and have no business attempting this stuff themselves. That lack of knowledge certainly will not stop them.
Change is coming with all the new regulations and efficiency requirements. Systems these days are becoming much more complicated than simple run-cap and contactor beasts of 30 years ago. Nowadays you're looking at high efficiency heat pump systems where the ahu is communicating with the condenser to adjust the operational parameters constantly.
What percentage of the contractors in the field know how to diagnose these types of systems? How readily available are the diagnostic tools that allow you to see what is going on with the system? It is not as simple as cap-n-go anymore.
For the price that I was able to swap my system out, I could do it over again two or more times before coming even with what my local contractors might charge. I don't feel any worse off going this route than if I had gone with a "reputable" brand. The way the supply chain works these days, one system might have a few different nameplates it is sold under. From looking at the product literature for the system I got, it definitely is the case. I understand and accept that I may not get the best warranty, dealing with the internet wholesaler might be a pain, or they could just up and disappear without notice.
To end: I delight in the fact that I was able to do it, and I will always have the knowledge and tools on hand to do it again in the future if I need to.
Im not against diy for people like you. You are a rare breed though.
I love your content keep them coming
@@user-vb8jl6nf4k thanks
this is on point. and I'm someone who does my own installs. fyi at least one of the online load calcs is a legit acca manual j ($10 or something)
Idk, I installed both minisplits in our house, I’d have loved to have an hvac guy come do it, but they wanted 5k each .. the units were 1k on Amazon and took me 2-3hrs to install, and that’s someone who’s not installed them before. I did everything but evac the lineset and couldn’t get anyone to come do just that for less than 1k/each, For sub 1 hour work. I bought a vacuum on Amazon for $75 bucks and did that myself too. This Home owner is tired of hvac guys rampant gouging and shoddy work.
5k for a minisplit isnt too bad if theyre also running the electrical, installing linehide so it looks pretty and doing a tight pretty job and pulling permits.
How did you get around the permitting?
@@timdestasiohvac lol $100 electrical justifies a 4k up charge? The logic is astounding. Electrical has been done by the electrician when we built the house, disconnects were ready to connect to. Also, last I checked any homeowner can install an outlet, not sure why you guys always try and scare with “permitting”.
@@silverlex1 you seem to be the exact homeowner that wouldnt even want to pay a good contractor what theyre worth. Installing electrical to a minisplit is more than $100. Your ignorance is showing. It's a 20 amp circuit and disconnect and any hvac system is required by law to be permitted. If your house burns down because of it your insurance company can legally refuse to pay you.
We contractors deserve to be able to feed our families too. And it takes money to run a business legitimately and legally and pay for training tools and other expenses to do things the right way. It sounds like you don't value any of those things so by all means please continue to do it yourself and don't waste our time when you just want to kick the tires and roast us later on when we asked what we deserve to get paid. Have a great life and please unfollow me.
@@timdestasiohvac 50ft of 12/2 is 65 bucks, a 20A breaker is $20 and a 2 pole disconnect is $16. All retail prices, I’d hope a contractor is paying less.
@@timdestasiohvac I’ve also yet to find hvac techs that show up and do competent work, manual J’s, combustion tests etc, it’s all hacky work, maybe you get better techs in commercial work but residential is a joke, regardless of what you pay.
This is simple, I cant afford to pay your worth. Or what you think your worth. I tried to hire a hvac contractor to do a new install. I received 3 quotes ranging from $18000 to $25000. I not only cant afford that but I cant understand the high mark up either. I bought the equipment myself and did the install completely on my own. I spent $5000 and several years later everything still works. I dont believe that the extra $13000 to $20000 wouldve changed much in the end.
@@philphil5066 thats a little bit my point.
I worked in estimating for a very very large hvac and piping contractor for 35 years . I retired in 2018 . I wanted to replace a very ancient and inefficient forced air unit. Reuse everything except a new plenum and a friend would wrap the ductwork. My brother and I pulled out the existing stuff and and left a super clean work area. I thought about diy but said nah it can’t be that expensive right? Two local hvac guys came out and priced the furnace at $6k and $8. For a few hours work I said thanks but no thanks. I called one of our service guys and they came out on a Sunday morning and I paid them $1500 for labor and miscellaneous metal .I bought the unit myself for $1000+/- . It’s clear that people are overcharging and blame inflation to justify their greed . Look everyone has to be successful especially in contracting . Our average markup on bids was 15% . Some of these markups were 2.5 to 3 cost and that’s what their sales people are being coached for . Private equity has taken over the industry and things are about to get much much worse.
@@paulgilliland2992 15% on resi is not sustainable.
There absolutely value in having a contractor come and do the work, but what is that actual dollar value? is it 3-5x the cost of the equipment? for most people, the answer to that question is an unequivocal NO.
MrCool's prefilled flex lines have taken the last thing they needed contractors for, anyone who can run a hose and plug something into a wall can get a mini split working today.
Yep. And our industry drove them to mr cool.
Those units are junk, theyll give you the run around on warranty and nobody stocks parts for them btw.
@@timdestasiohvac You realize that's FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) right? The parts are all available on the website, and even if the equipment fails in half the time as a contractor installed unit, its still worth doing DIY if or paying for parts out of pocket if the contractor charges them 3x the cost of the unit and you'll get years of service out of it. What happens when these Mr Cool mini splits are available at home depot and you can just swap them out ezpz. the HVAC industry is going to get disrupted by this, will be interesting to see how they react.
It took until the SEVENTH contractor to come look at my job to find someone competent. Most sent salespeople not those technically and / or engineering minded. More than a few told me they could do the manual J by looking at a satellite image of my house. I didn't even ask about Manual D when most winced when I wanted some duct work addressed. They all pretty much just wanted to rip and replace my central units. They only wanted the part of the job that generated the highest profit per hour, not offering a complete, professional solution. The HVAC industry is ripe for disruption, and like you said, pretty much did it to themselves. There is a big push to efficiency world side, and yet distribution has so much gate keeping to the best equipment. It's so easy to buy china made stuff online but if you want USA built, that is hard. It all seems super backwards.
@@fmSimplicity preach
Yeah, good luck trying to buy a traditional, name brand, furnace. The cartel isn't going to let that happen.
All this is on the HVAC industry. charging thousands of dollars for simple installs, terrible experiences, and contractor incompetence. Its so unbelievably expensive you need to bring 100% everytime because people are withdrawing from their retirement funds to pay for these projects. Same applies for roofing, etc.
I do commercial HVAC controls and my company does mechanical installations. I'm DIYing my next unit myself. I can get an inverter heatpump system for the price I'd pay someone to install the cheapest lowest SEER system. I've been through the Mitsubishi classes and got certified on them. For people with the know how I think DIY is a great option, but I agree for most homeowners it might be over their head. The units are getting more complicated as well and that's where having a contractor can be a good thing.
@@memsu06 yep youll do a better job than the average resi hack.
I understand business takes a long hours and a high effort to run.
But we’re talking here about replacing AC units that cost anywhere between $3000 and $10,000 and charging roughly $5000 worth of labor on top of that.
I understand they are permit issues.
I don’t understand why homeowners could not pull a permit and have inspector come by and validate the homeowners work. Especially since most of installation information is online .HVAC industry trying to hide that information from common folk behind pay walls are license requirements to make it harder to find information . Let’s say the inspector gets paid $200 a visit just to come in and check the work . that still comes out to be a better value when homeowner knows what they’re doing.
I also understand it is expensive to run a business and you need to train and that cost money too. Understand trades people charge high prices because they run their own business but not everybody run their old business and not everybody can make 100 K year to afford professionals to come in and do the job .not going into politics here but average salary in US $65,000. I’m all for contractors to be able to make decent living and $10000 expense is not really that affordable. if homeowners have to optimize their expenses so can the businesses .
say you need to run electrical connector but for some reason you have to go to the store and pick it up. why not have it on your truck so you don’t have to spend extra time going to the store and back. Everything delivered nowadays. you can have a small supply at your business warehouse and take a pictures before you go to job, so you know what supplies you need to bring and pack them before you bring them .
that saves time it provides better value for customer . job can be done quicker. Maybe there could be a service that will estimate accurately proper sizing of the unit so you can outsource that part to somebody else and save some time. Just some suggestions here.
If I can’t afford $20,000 car, I don’t buy it. Same with the contractors. I do find value in their work, but in my experience, 85% people I hired didn’t do as good of a job as I can.
I do need to take time off of work and unpaid time off is frowned upon, but I don’t make $500 a day at my job. If it saves me $2000 to takeoff a week of work I will do it in a heartbeat.
I agree with your point that people need to appreciate the contractors and contractors need to do better.
contractors can do better by optimizing their services as much as possible eliminated all the costs.
Homeowners shop for insurance to get better rates , contractors can do the same . homeowners don’t buy new vehicles every 3 to 5 years to get a tax write off.
business owners can do the same. It does not matter to me if contractor drives a beat up truck or brand new truck as long as they do decent work . I would pay them just about same price amount of money to a person regardless what they drive if the quality of the work is top notch. It’s a simple as that.
I understand the contractor is not wanting to install a split units but those are more relief for DIYers. If I buy a unit on Amazon I’m not gonna expect contractor to come and install it .
but it also does not make financial sense to install a split unit for $5000, there’s a reason the cost $1000 . Those units might only last 3 to 5 years . rough wiring probably can be done once and then all subsequent replacements can just fit in place of broken units.
everybody is looking for the better price and save money that’s how capitalism works. business owners trying to extract as much profit as they can . consumers looking to save us as much money as they can. It’s a simple as that . if the difference is too wide , there’s not gonna be an agreement.
@@MegaSuperMiracle totally agree, only comment I’d say is the companies making the 700 ones are the same ones making the 3k ones. It’s a commodity products, name on the front isn’t who’s making it anyways.
There is great value in this video. The HVAC world is definitely headed into a direct to consumer model. I totally agree with what you said about how jobs are priced, the industry needs to value time more than materials to adapt. Most of the cheapest stuff online is throw away too, It's impossible to get parts for most of the units from amazon, so homeowners, when they break be prepared for a whole new unit install.
You aren't wrong, but you can replace the unit 4-5 times for the price I received from local HVAC companies :P
Bad Advice, you are digging in and basically saying jack up the price of labor even more. The amount hvac contractors charge for a days work is outrageous. People have started to realize this and that's why they are getting their own equipment on Amazon and doing DIY installations. The new generation of contractors can still make a great living - working for them selves and charging 1/3 to a half of what the old established companies are charging. Please explain why a day's labor for 2 techs changing out a system is worth 4-7 thousand dollars (excluding the equipment). No other industry charges these kind of labor rates.
The only industry that out price gouges the hvac industry is the funeral industry😂😂.
A residential hvac system is not complicated it doesn't that a degree to figure it out. If it weren't for the EPA, lobbyist and regulations more people would be doing their own installs. I'm all for a guy making a living but i despise an hvac service guy more than an attorney or car salesman. When that truck or van rolls up you automatically know you're about to get screwed.😊
One word! “Capacitor” to hear someone tell me they got a total deal for 1100.00 (service call….) nothing worse!
@@timp024 seriously, $30 on amazon or 1100 from the HVAC pro :P 5 minutes install.
This is what happens when equipment prices go up 60-70 percent in the last 3 years.
I mean, the HVAC cartel has been screwing customers over by overcharging for equipment for, well, ever. The issue isn't the quality of service, it's the markup on equipment and HVAC folks making it nearly impossible for a DIY person to buy quality equipment.
Additionally the industry has shifted from fixing equipment to selling new equipment. Sure, a new furnace will be more efficient, but the HVAC guy that wanted to sell me a new furnace because the blower motor went out can stuff it.
So, stop marking up equipment and just charge labor in line with what you need no matter who is providing the equipment, and actually fix stuff instead of trying to replace it. Then tell the manufacturers of quality equipment to sell to the public.
Years ago plumbers got to be so expensive that everyone just had to learn to do without them. In my area it has become difficult to find an honest AC person. Most want to replace repairable equipment at huge markups. The new equipment has a shortened lifespan, so the replacement is sometimes of poorer quality than the equipment that should have been repaired. Im thinking Home Depot will soon start having workshops on DIY HVAC install. I would rather do the work myself, than be taken for a fool.
NO NO NO i HAVE ALLWAYS DONE MY OWN WORK. But 4 years ago ,i was sick and had to call a service man. He changed a $40 capacitor .total time from phone call to0 leaving my house was 1 hour. The bill was $520 plus tax on the $100 cap. I know thats the way capitalism works. I didnt complain about the bill. So please dont YOU COMPLAIN when I do it myself next time.
Is it a $40 cap or a $100 cap? You have both in the same story.
@@realSamAndrew I was being facetious. It was a $40 cap that he charged me a$100 for and I paid salestax on..
@@ed631941 so he charged you $420 for the labor and trip?
That's not a capitalism thing, its a "paying our bills thing". Do you expect us not to profit? Who are you to tell us what our business needs to charge to clear our overhead? Have you seen our books?
@@timdestasiohvac I don't know, OP seems to be making the same point you did in the video. Either charge for the labor at a rate that makes sense for the business, or mark up the parts to make up the difference, but doing both is just going to turn pople off to the whole thing.
That said, is $520 in line with your business's prices to replace a cap? It might be reasonable in some areas, but I can't see paying half that for a couple hours time, including the diagnosis and the drive over. There are expenses to running a business, Running one in a different industry I know it just as well, but just like anything else, people that are able to do it themselves will do it them selves when the cost to have someone else do it becomes too far out of line with the actual labor put in. Nothing wrong with getting paid for your time, but sometimes people are pricing themselves out of the market.
Demand that they produce the Manual J calculations, or refuse to touch it.
That's not the case. More and more some customers don't care if you charge just one dollar over your actual purchase price. If the customer think they can get a deal on a system, they will do it. A lot of people just don't want to pay for quality work.
That is trye too and at thevend ivsaid they deserve the bottom.feeder contractors. You dont want that customer.
Talk with tons of tech's, contractors don't seem to offer heat load calculations because customers don't want to pay for it. If they try to roll it into job then they are a higher bid. I understand customer is getting screwed paying for incorrectly sized, poorly installed equipment that wastes tons of energy. Customer pays more in the end with higher monthly bills, so in the end they do pay, just not us. Like your idea, just not warranty part, none from me.
My point is we're gonna have to figure this out as contractors its just going to be more and more.
You got here by trying to charge $12k for a $5k unit and then another $5k for labor
@@heavydoseoftruth386 in a way they have (not me)
It’s always been around. I found out it doesn’t matter if there becomes more and more of it yes, we might lose the initial first installation.
We just charge more for the service call and since it’s going to take longer with phone tag we charge for that we charge for again we charge for that .
I have difficulty taken on some of these jobs just because they were through direct relations of people I work with or worked for and they begged me .
Nearly every situation I literally charge them for diagnosis and repair and replacement than the unit unit cost .
So expensive, it was almost the price of the unit the cheapest scenarios .
So in the end because there’s more breakdowns and there’s more size mismatch .
It’s sad for the customer
But if you write your invoice correctly, you still make the same money
Just not on new equipment sales
And yes, you are dealing with a customer when they find out how expensive this equipment is and how and why you happen not to stock their parts on your truck
Over in Asia, you can go into your corner store or something like a 7-Eleven or a quickie mark and they have one isle of air-conditioning units that consumers can just walk off the street and purchase and walk out with
Yeah Ive seen those installs in Asia too. Nobody values a craftsman there.