7psi is a pressure ratio of 1.48 10psi is a pressure ratio of 1.69 Multiplied is a pressure ratio of 2.5 Which is a positive pressure of 21.8 seems negligible considering we dont have the raw data and we don't know in increase of the air temp. Awesome video, love seeing actual engineering in "real world" testing!
Perfect timing. Just sat down with some Italian food on the couch ! Also had a n/a 3800 in my Oldsmobile when I was a kid. Always wished it had a blower !
Love seeing this, the 3800 finally getting the recognition it deserves. I hope he tries doing some testing with just a turbo alone. Should be some interesting numbers than.
Dammit, man. I'm building a 3.8 SC Fiero. Keep up the tech talks on these engines... I have TWO grand prix gtp drivetrains on the way for my conversion. i could use some ideas ;)
I looked up some forum posts about this that were posted like 10 yrs ago and wow, people just didn't have their facts straight concerning the math on how this works, whether it could be done and what and how to do it. At lease with this engine. I want to build up my daily driver SSEi like this but not do it exactly the same. not with the exact parts Richard used and stay with the OE PCM if that could be done. Richard used a series 3 which has the powedered hot forged steel rods and I'm still running a set of nicely customized Cast rods and OE pistons but really would like to build my engine with a set of moly rods and forged pistons, and a bit less compression ratio to assist with the turbo part and the higher boost pressures. Get it down to closer to a flat 8:1 instead of 8.5. And install the intercooler, Air to water. under the S.C'r, wondering how it would work to have a cooler after the turbo then under the charger, if the heat exchanger would be able to handle both cooling cores?
If I was to run a set up of this nature, I would go with a larger turbo. With the supercharger hitting down low, you don't have to worry about lag anymore and when the supercharger runs out of steam up top, thats when I would have the turbos come alive. Best of both worlds, toqrque down low and top end power of a turbo
So a lot of guys who run the turbo and the blower will setup the bypass valve on the supercharger to open once the turbo starts producing some boost. The theory is that the turbo is going to be more efficient at making power so with the bypass valve open the turbo does all of the work and keeps the temps cooler, and reduces the parasitic loss from the blower. Then they would just reference total boost pressure from the turbo for the wastegate but have it set higher than what the supercharger can produce I personally have always wanted to try it the way you did it here, I figure why not let the supercharger compound it a bit if it's going to be there and just run an intercooler and/or E85 to keep things cool. Run a large pulley with the M90 to minimize the amount of heat it's making and still benefit from having the blower but let the turbo do the heavy lifting on the top end
Solid flat tappets have more parasitic loss than solid rollers but flat tappets go real big hp. Guys want to keep getting hung up on parasitics. Friction is the way of the engine.
Richard holder On one of his videos Gail Banks discovered that you can compound into a turbo because it likes high airflow But the positive displacement supercharger wasn't making very much additional horsepower when they compounded a turbo into it.. but it was producing an excessive amount of heat. Gail hypothesized that the blower doesn't like being compounded into it so if you could compound the blower into the turbo that would be ideal. Would be nice to see that blower, into an intercooler, into the turbo, into an after cooler, into the intake. Should compress the air most efficiently without excess heat
I loved this motor in my fiero. I wish i never sold that car. I will own another and after seeing that torque curve and 12psi at 3300 rpm i think this is how im doing my next car. Thanks man. Sick videos!!!!
I have a mercedes E55 that I added a turbo to. I added a PT6870 to the factory blower with stock pulley. I wanted more power and wanted to keep the brutal bottom end the E55 is known for. The project is a success! The car is a beast to drive and makes everybody scratch their head when they see it. I do suffer from a total lack of tuning support on the platform so a stand alone ECU is in the works for winter. Then I will turn it up and see how it goes. I have a banks data monster and I still need to add boost and temp taps out of the turbo and out of the blower to get more data, but my lack of traction show it is making a lot more power than before. I don't have any good video of it but there are a couple clips on my TH-cam account. Thanks Richard for the content I love it!
There are other precursor engines to GM 3.8L V6, including the 3.3L V6 and the 3.0L V6. Do a stroker V6 for quicker boost and awesome HP gains. My former Pontiac Grand Am had a NA 3.3L V6 and OEM roller/hydraulic cam, just get larger valve covers to fit roller rocker arms and an easy 5-10 HP gain. Boosted, but only if the lower end of the engine had lower compression pistons and gas ported rings. Hint, hint, when porting heads, open up intake ports for better volume and minimal smoothing on exhaust ports for higher velocity, port matching, volumetric balance for best results. Now you have a selection of OEM roller hydraulic cam options, I wish you well.
Thank you Richard very much appreciate the Buick v6 supercharged turbocharged compound combination, it's time to move on up to the current stuff that people are running today since you're all about the other guys engines, let's get a late model gen-6 Camaro 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo strap that puppy on up to your Dino and let's make some noise, and I have you know GM also made a 2.5L version of the same engine that was not available on the gen-6 Camaro, now that is something you might want to look into as well, you can get these engines relatively affordably, I can tell you this I own a 2018 Camaro with the 4-cylinder Turbo and I managed to get the car as fast as 1260s in 1/4 Mile and to my understanding there is more performance to be had from this combination, show us how it's done!...
The 2.5l is a big boy and theyre actually fairly common. Base Malibu and minitrucks have them and they are rated around 200hp. The turbo engines have a high density spincast head but there really arent much differences.when gm started pounding on these drag racing, the lost foam heads would start eroding the chambers and the heads would eventually fail. All of them from 2007 up have a better head and heavier PM rods and the geniii from 2013+ have a forged crank.the 2.0 has a little thicker sleeves and that might be important if you are running stupid boost. The 2.4l that was in millions of cars has port injection and a 58x trigger pattern. There is also lots of 10-15 year old cars in the junkyard. I am pretty sure it uses the same bellhousing and ignition trigger as the 3800 and would be pretty easy to get running on the dyno with port injection.
@@timothybayliss6680 I already installed a 2.5 in my current 2020 Camaro, I call it my pandemic special and of course there is an obvious boost in power and specially torque, although both the engines are nearly identical, the 2.5 has a 11:3 compression the intake ports on the heads are slightly bigger, I mailed the domes off the Pistons to make it turbo friendly, I gapped the Rings at 28, I use head studs to preserve the threads in the block, zzperformance office head studs for these engines at an ungodly amount of Monies, so I bought a head stud kit from Jegs at $95, the head studs to get are the Chinese studs for the early Gen 3 LS engines.
Looks like you needed to regulate the wastegate post-blower to like 18 PSI for street maybe? Perhaps get more turbo down low and less pressure up high maybe? What would this have looked like with the larger blower pulley? VERY interesting Richard!! More compound testing please - this is really cool :)
Rising boost curve --> no intercooler --> the pressure will increase? But I would expect your E85 runs on the stock setup to have revealed this.... Boost should multiply, not sum (use Atmospheres not PSI) Instantly, the coolest engine series on TH-cam
Why use atmosphere (bar)? You will only confuse everyone and it just not a common term. unless you are around engineers. The blowers will usually always have a rising boost curve because of the drive ratio to the supercharger unless its too small.
@@krakhedd I am an engineer and I get it. But Bar is still an engineering term and the people that I usually deal with in the US do not measure in Bar but PSi I will not undervalue them just because its a simple atmosphere ratio. You can be a d*ck, or just provide knowledge based on peoples known pressure measurements.
@@victordahn2150 that's funny, because I'm not sitting here pondering the intelligence of any potential audience. I'm presuming they know or will figure it out if they don't. And that somehow makes me a term I shan't repeat, for giving them the benefit of the doubt? Get da fuq oudda here 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣✌️✌️✌️
@Richard Holdner. I rev my motor to 7000rpm with ls7 lifters, double roller timing chain, big cam, stock pushrods, rockers, etc. I have a buddy who revs 7800 rpm
A 231 Cubic inch engine with an M90 Eaton blower is "like" a 321 cubic inch engine normally aspirated. Add an M112, it's best assuming it is a 343 Before Turbo. So the extra compound boost isn't really limited by the extra "aluminum Eaton Lung"...your better off assuming it's now a 321 V8....before Turbo. The extra cubes of any postie displacement Roots style blower is about as volumeteically efficient as the engine it's sitting on is. VE tops out on both the 231 GM3800 and Eaton M90 at about 65% at peak rpm.
I agree with you in concept, but I do the math differently. If the blower is making around 8 psi then the volumetric efficiency is about 150% of NA so the 231 looks to the turbo like 347 ci.
I would like to see an NA series 3 (cast not plastic) upper and lower intake manifold on this before doin head/cam work. Would like to see boost levels to make the same horsepower. Also zzp makes an insert for them to supposedly help flow which would be another thing I would like to see dyno numbers on.
@@vicmccartin Turbo diesel engines are the best gotta love the low down torque. The only time I'd prefer a petrol/gasoline engine is for driving on sand.
the supercharger multiplies the incoming pressure ratio. You should have ended up with 2.37:1, or just over 20 psig. So you're getting a little bonus, or some sensors aren't reading exactly. fwiw, Harrop experimented with the 1.9L TVS blower (as on the LSA) on the series 3.
last time i saw a blower being fed by a turbo on a gm v6 was a old detriot diesel 6v 92 engine.& it was only rated at 300 hp & 950 lb/ft. if i recall correctly.
My understanding of compound boost systems is you multiply the individual pressure ratios together, not add them. So the turbo running 7psi has a PR of 1.4 and the supercharger at 12psi has a PR of 1.8. 1.4 * 1.8 = 2.6 (39psi) which is about 24psi(gauge) Really starts to make a big difference when the PR's are over both 2 (14.7psi)
You are both mistaken. You need to differentiate between PR and Boost PSI numbers. If the air being fed to the SC or small turbo is compressed then 14.7psi is no longer the atmospheric pressure it sees is it. I have a compound turbo setup on my car. Boost pressures do add together, however you need to look at it like this Big turbo ingests air from atmosphere which is 14.7psi and multiplies it by 2x for a total boost of 14.7psi gauge(29.4psi absolute) - So PR is 2:1 Small turbo(or sc) inlet sees 29.4psi absolute at its inlet now. So for it to also have a PR of 2:1 it has to output 29.4psi itself. So boost at the big turbo is 14.7psi and the small turbo is 29.4psi. Both PRs are still 2:1 and total boost is 44.1psi. 2:1 x 2:1 minus atmospheric pressure = 3bar or 44.1psi. Thats how boost PSi numbers can add together but the PRs do multiply. A great source of information is the compound turbo thread on yellowbullet.com by Kevin Jewer.
Compound turbos on a straight 5 or straight 6. Torque curves on those little motors is pretty amazing curious if a boost curve could be made to use the available torq throughout entire RPM. GT2860 and GT3582?? Possibly slightly larger big turbo.
I would like to see a test between a certain boost level into the intake of the supercharger with a stock 3.8 pulley, and then running the smallest pulley you have with a lower boost into the supercharger. It would be cool to see if the restriction people complain about with compounding these engines is only due to a stock pulley and not spinning the supercharger very fast.
If you want a ridiculous "other guys" motor? You should try a twin turbo setup on a 2000-2004 Ford 3.8L v6. I had a 2000 V6 Mustang with a twin turbo that made 370 wheel horsepower and 398ft-lbs at 13psi with a pair of t3/t04 hybrid turbos. Wasn't as fast as a cobra, but the insurance was way cheaper!
I would've added the smaller pulley and see what it would do. I know the supercharger alone petters out around the 400 range. But I'd port it to see the difference to.
Richard you did well on the subject of needing a turbo cam for turbocharging have you ran a solid roller cam with hydraulic lifters or hydraulic roller cam using solid roller lifters, if not it would be interesting.
Not a great idea running solid lifters on an hydraulic cam. Hydraulic cams typically have .006" closing ramps on both intake and exhaust. Solid Lifter cams usually have .012" intake and .018" exhaust. Over time, an hydraulic cam will beat up a solid lifter valvetrain. It's no problem to use hydraulic lifters on a solid lifter cam.
In Aust we just built Chev bow tie V6, twin 3582 turbos. with all the good components. interested once it hits the dyno. we will let you know how it goes !
Great video, although I don't exactly know how it works (just my lack of reading and no first hand experience). However it would seem like doing something like this would improve the efficiency of the engine even though a roots style supercharger uses the engine to turn the rotors (I might be entirely incorrect though).
So I'm guessing the missing variable for the extra boost is the percentage of boost the blower is at over atmospheric. So in an equation it would look something like this 10+7a=23 guessing at your barometric pressure for that day I'm assuming about a 75% increase over atmospheric with blower only so if u solve for a=1.75 or 75% it comes out to 22.25psi and that's pretty close for what it is! So Kool that the blower boosts the boost!! Love your videos bud keep up the great work!
@@Joshie2256 that would= 21.82 psi pretty close to my quick math and both are a single psi or so from actual. we need actual barometric pressure readings from that day in that dyno cell to be any more accurate and still probably won't be exact do to heat expansion and other inefficiencies and variables we can't account for.
okay, so why I would consider a supercharger and then a compounded turbo later, is I'd be using a vvt 1.6L engine that doesn't make a ton N/A maybe 95hp at the wheels but would build it for high rpm. I'd consider a compound dual turbo build, but I'm not sure if overall engine response would be worse, as I believe superchargers effectively increase lower rpm torque as well as overall torque vs a gradual increase with a single turbo
Please: Run a test with a hobs switch activating the stock bypass on the supercharger at 18 PSI and turn the waste gate on the turbo up to 25 PSI or so.
We need to see this same setup with that kenne belle you tested! Also I'd like to see what kinda power changes it makes going from e85 to say, E70, or E50, or even E25, because around here we only see 50-75% ethanol at the pump 90% of the time.
Your compound boost setup worked better than Gale Banks'! The next part of the test that I hope you do is to run the turbo alone at the same intake manifold pressure, and see how the power compares.
I think that's because Gale was using a twin screw supercharger, which has internal compression, vs a roots, which is just an "air mover" that relies completely upon the restriction provided by the engine's ability to receive the incoming charge )or in the case of the Buick, lack thereof).
@@richardholdener1727 Yes, it was a 7.0 Duramax with a 5L Whipple, 2 turbos, an intercooler, and an aftercooler. He was trying to get 1200 hp, and couldn't make it. In the process of trying to figure out what was wrong, he slowed down the Whipple, and picked up -200 hp. But the bsfc of the engine was lousy, and the egt was way higher than a diesel should have. What frustrated me about Gale's test was he never posted interstage pressures.
Interesting... I've got a series I L27. I also have a pairs of pre-series I LN3 heads, and one piece intake manifold (which I believe the intake can be mounted to a L27?)... Don't care for plastic intakes (plastic anything)... Any way, I haven't seen anything regarding the LN3, or L27 on your videos, but perhaps you can give me some advice in interchangeability, or differences compared to the 3800 engines you've built.
I don’t think most people know how compound boost works. 7 psi + 10 psi = 23 psi? This doesn’t make sense at first if you don’t know what to look for. Since these boost pressures are just multipliers of atmospheric pressure, the math is different. Look up a compound boost chart on google images. I believe it’s 10 psi / 7 psi =1.42 14.7(atmosphere) * 1.42 = 21psi roughly Nice job Richard!!!
Would love if you can, to test camshafts in these motors. There’s a big market for reverse pattern turbo cams for this particular platform and I remember from your other videos you don’t think they’re the way to go. Would love to see if that stands true on the 3800s!
I have a supercharged v6 I am wanting a eBay turbo added in not sure what I'll need besides a tune an to keep it street legal not sure if that would be possible but
I’m converting my engine to turbo…..I have gutted the M-90’ And when I say gutted, very gutted. I cut off the super charger bearing holders…..if you look at the throttle body all the material has been removed It took me forever to remove all that material…..I gutted it so I can use my short stack intercooler….I even cut the intake to make it look like the 5th generation intake.
![เปิดบ้าน โคตรสวย ป๋องกพล รู้จักตั้งนาน เพิ่งรู้ว่ารวย!!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tmgCF_2HfYI/mqdefault.jpg)
That's amazing! Looks like our Commodore is getting a turbo with it's supercharger!
Yeah Scotty that’ll be sweet 👍
Do it, makes for great content
F yes!
Everyone has been "oh nah the charger becomes a restriction" phhh love that this guy has shown that it can be done with great results
7psi is a pressure ratio of 1.48
10psi is a pressure ratio of 1.69
Multiplied is a pressure ratio of 2.5
Which is a positive pressure of 21.8 seems negligible considering we dont have the raw data and we don't know in increase of the air temp. Awesome video, love seeing actual engineering in "real world" testing!
This is a nugget of gold good sir thank you
Perfect timing. Just sat down with some Italian food on the couch ! Also had a n/a 3800 in my Oldsmobile when I was a kid. Always wished it had a blower !
Yea man i swear he has the best timing on youtube. Not just timing but the content always seems to be what your looking for!
Love it!!! I think this series is going to surprise ALOT of people!!! 1000hp or bust!
These motors have already proven over 1k hp Google zzp and look up their twin turbo gt or ttgt.
Love seeing this, the 3800 finally getting the recognition it deserves. I hope he tries doing some testing with just a turbo alone. Should be some interesting numbers than.
I was thinking the same, a nice turbo with a good intercooler and 20psi +.
3800s have been 140mph in the 1/4 at full weight 🤷🏻♂️
They're a solid motor, they just sound like shit 😂
Dammit, man. I'm building a 3.8 SC Fiero. Keep up the tech talks on these engines... I have TWO grand prix gtp drivetrains on the way for my conversion. i could use some ideas ;)
A fiero with a compound set up would be amazing! 500 hoarse fiero would be ferocious
I looked up some forum posts about this that were posted like 10 yrs ago and wow, people just didn't have their facts straight concerning the math on how this works, whether it could be done and what and how to do it. At lease with this engine. I want to build up my daily driver SSEi like this but not do it exactly the same. not with the exact parts Richard used and stay with the OE PCM if that could be done. Richard used a series 3 which has the powedered hot forged steel rods and I'm still running a set of nicely customized Cast rods and OE pistons but really would like to build my engine with a set of moly rods and forged pistons, and a bit less compression ratio to assist with the turbo part and the higher boost pressures. Get it down to closer to a flat 8:1 instead of 8.5. And install the intercooler, Air to water. under the S.C'r, wondering how it would work to have a cooler after the turbo then under the charger, if the heat exchanger would be able to handle both cooling cores?
If I was to run a set up of this nature, I would go with a larger turbo. With the supercharger hitting down low, you don't have to worry about lag anymore and when the supercharger runs out of steam up top, thats when I would have the turbos come alive. Best of both worlds, toqrque down low and top end power of a turbo
So a lot of guys who run the turbo and the blower will setup the bypass valve on the supercharger to open once the turbo starts producing some boost. The theory is that the turbo is going to be more efficient at making power so with the bypass valve open the turbo does all of the work and keeps the temps cooler, and reduces the parasitic loss from the blower.
Then they would just reference total boost pressure from the turbo for the wastegate but have it set higher than what the supercharger can produce
I personally have always wanted to try it the way you did it here, I figure why not let the supercharger compound it a bit if it's going to be there and just run an intercooler and/or E85 to keep things cool. Run a large pulley with the M90 to minimize the amount of heat it's making and still benefit from having the blower but let the turbo do the heavy lifting on the top end
Solid flat tappets have more parasitic loss than solid rollers but flat tappets go real big hp.
Guys want to keep getting hung up on parasitics. Friction is the way of the engine.
I love compound. I did this to a Probe GT back around 2006-2007. Trapped over 120mph in a probe, lol.
The good ol anal probe. You don't see them anymore.
@@faststang85 Like NEVER see them - it's weird the way they all disappeared! A GF of mine had one in pink but it drove nice at least lol
Checkout boosted speed demon on TH-cam. He claims to have the world's fasted probe
@@wework4beer Ha, awesome!
That torque curve is sick. This thing will be wild with a cam.
Running the individual coils looks pretty nice on the 3800 compared to the coil packs.
Richard holder
On one of his videos Gail Banks discovered that you can compound into a turbo because it likes high airflow
But the positive displacement supercharger wasn't making very much additional horsepower when they compounded a turbo into it.. but it was producing an excessive amount of heat.
Gail hypothesized that the blower doesn't like being compounded into it so if you could compound the blower into the turbo that would be ideal.
Would be nice to see that blower, into an intercooler, into the turbo, into an after cooler, into the intake.
Should compress the air most efficiently without excess heat
Plus supercharger whine.....which ya just gotta have.
I just watched that video.
Keep the 3800 vids COMING!!! Thank you good sir.
I loved this motor in my fiero. I wish i never sold that car. I will own another and after seeing that torque curve and 12psi at 3300 rpm i think this is how im doing my next car. Thanks man. Sick videos!!!!
This is what I am talking about. I have wanted to do this with the 4.0l v6 Mustang,lol wow!!!
I have a mercedes E55 that I added a turbo to. I added a PT6870 to the factory blower with stock pulley. I wanted more power and wanted to keep the brutal bottom end the E55 is known for. The project is a success! The car is a beast to drive and makes everybody scratch their head when they see it. I do suffer from a total lack of tuning support on the platform so a stand alone ECU is in the works for winter. Then I will turn it up and see how it goes. I have a banks data monster and I still need to add boost and temp taps out of the turbo and out of the blower to get more data, but my lack of traction show it is making a lot more power than before. I don't have any good video of it but there are a couple clips on my TH-cam account. Thanks Richard for the content I love it!
Did it blow up yet?
@@LibsareTRASH not yet
@@BATworkshop did it blow up yet??
@@AllWbody no it still runs well. I will get it on my dyno soon and see what it makes.
@@BATworkshop dang nice didn’t think you would reply honestly lol gonna check out your channel
Next step: swapping to n/a manifold, w straight turbo? Amazing work as always
There are other precursor engines to GM 3.8L V6, including the 3.3L V6 and the 3.0L V6. Do a stroker V6 for quicker boost and awesome HP gains. My former Pontiac Grand Am had a NA 3.3L V6 and OEM roller/hydraulic cam, just get larger valve covers to fit roller rocker arms and an easy 5-10 HP gain. Boosted, but only if the lower end of the engine had lower compression pistons and gas ported rings. Hint, hint, when porting heads, open up intake ports for better volume and minimal smoothing on exhaust ports for higher velocity, port matching, volumetric balance for best results. Now you have a selection of OEM roller hydraulic cam options, I wish you well.
Thank you Richard very much appreciate the Buick v6 supercharged turbocharged compound combination, it's time to move on up to the current stuff that people are running today since you're all about the other guys engines, let's get a late model gen-6 Camaro 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo strap that puppy on up to your Dino and let's make some noise, and I have you know GM also made a 2.5L version of the same engine that was not available on the gen-6 Camaro, now that is something you might want to look into as well, you can get these engines relatively affordably, I can tell you this I own a 2018 Camaro with the 4-cylinder Turbo and I managed to get the car as fast as 1260s in 1/4 Mile and to my understanding there is more performance to be had from this combination, show us how it's done!...
The 2.5l is a big boy and theyre actually fairly common. Base Malibu and minitrucks have them and they are rated around 200hp. The turbo engines have a high density spincast head but there really arent much differences.when gm started pounding on these drag racing, the lost foam heads would start eroding the chambers and the heads would eventually fail. All of them from 2007 up have a better head and heavier PM rods and the geniii from 2013+ have a forged crank.the 2.0 has a little thicker sleeves and that might be important if you are running stupid boost. The 2.4l that was in millions of cars has port injection and a 58x trigger pattern. There is also lots of 10-15 year old cars in the junkyard. I am pretty sure it uses the same bellhousing and ignition trigger as the 3800 and would be pretty easy to get running on the dyno with port injection.
its funny you think I can afford a 2018 turbo vehicle or even the engine
@@richardholdener1727 alright dude I'm sorry I put it out there...😞
@@timothybayliss6680 I already installed a 2.5 in my current 2020 Camaro, I call it my pandemic special and of course there is an obvious boost in power and specially torque, although both the engines are nearly identical, the 2.5 has a 11:3 compression the intake ports on the heads are slightly bigger, I mailed the domes off the Pistons to make it turbo friendly, I gapped the Rings at 28, I use head studs to preserve the threads in the block, zzperformance office head studs for these engines at an ungodly amount of Monies, so I bought a head stud kit from Jegs at $95, the head studs to get are the Chinese studs for the early Gen 3 LS engines.
@@richardholdener1727 same problem many hot rodders run into, that's why we're hooked on this other guys series 👍👍
Looks like you needed to regulate the wastegate post-blower to like 18 PSI for street maybe? Perhaps get more turbo down low and less pressure up high maybe? What would this have looked like with the larger blower pulley? VERY interesting Richard!! More compound testing please - this is really cool :)
Rising boost curve --> no intercooler --> the pressure will increase? But I would expect your E85 runs on the stock setup to have revealed this....
Boost should multiply, not sum (use Atmospheres not PSI)
Instantly, the coolest engine series on TH-cam
Why use atmosphere (bar)? You will only confuse everyone and it just not a common term. unless you are around engineers. The blowers will usually always have a rising boost curve because of the drive ratio to the supercharger unless its too small.
@@victordahn2150 cuz that's the math dude....you do not get 49 psi of boost from a pair of 7psi boost stages; you get ~1.25*14.7
@@krakhedd I am an engineer and I get it. But Bar is still an engineering term and the people that I usually deal with in the US do not measure in Bar but PSi I will not undervalue them just because its a simple atmosphere ratio. You can be a d*ck, or just provide knowledge based on peoples known pressure measurements.
@@victordahn2150 that's funny, because I'm not sitting here pondering the intelligence of any potential audience. I'm presuming they know or will figure it out if they don't. And that somehow makes me a term I shan't repeat, for giving them the benefit of the doubt? Get da fuq oudda here 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣✌️✌️✌️
Fantastic. Shows how well the charger helps the turbo spool, as that's a lot low down from the turbo. Love it
I want to see what this engine can handle..... I feel its coming soon!!!
Btw... that tourque curve is beautiful 😍
Plenty of people have seen 700 on a stock block with single turbo setups. Wonder if he’ll get near that
@Richard Holdner. I rev my motor to 7000rpm with ls7 lifters, double roller timing chain, big cam, stock pushrods, rockers, etc. I have a buddy who revs 7800 rpm
A 231 Cubic inch engine with an M90 Eaton blower is "like" a 321 cubic inch engine normally aspirated. Add an M112, it's best assuming it is a 343 Before Turbo. So the extra compound boost isn't really limited by the extra "aluminum Eaton Lung"...your better off assuming it's now a 321 V8....before Turbo. The extra cubes of any postie displacement Roots style blower is about as volumeteically efficient as the engine it's sitting on is. VE tops out on both the 231 GM3800 and Eaton M90 at about 65% at peak rpm.
I agree with you in concept, but I do the math differently. If the blower is making around 8 psi then the volumetric efficiency is about 150% of NA so the 231 looks to the turbo like 347 ci.
Cool, now we want to see twin turbos with a 671 blower on a big block running E85...HOLY SHEEEET!!!!!!!!!
I saw a compound setup like this at motorama Toronto a few years ago in a Toyota or Nissan 5.7 v8 , in a cool classic JDM car.
Look at this and really see the benefit the Thunderbird SC had with its intercooler. Even with first Gen blower made more torque.
I would like to see an NA series 3 (cast not plastic) upper and lower intake manifold on this before doin head/cam work. Would like to see boost levels to make the same horsepower. Also zzp makes an insert for them to supposedly help flow which would be another thing I would like to see dyno numbers on.
This is pretty cool! I would love to see a 5.3 engine with a 671 blower with a GT45/7875 combo would do!
Keep the amazing videos going Richard!
This would be a nasty drift setup. I love it!!!!! Been waiting a long time to see this. Thanks Richard you’re the man!
WOW. Excellent work Richard, interesting video!
Sweet test!! Priceless info bro! That's why we keep watching... 😎👍
That’s a cool video, how about removing the supercharger and running 22psi just from the turbo? Would be great to see the comparison peak power
Peak power would be same given similar iats. But the torque curve will loose out on alot imo...
@@Saddedude -parasitic loss
These engines were popular swaps into Toyota Hilux/Tacoma in Australia with conversion kits
3800s are great but id rather have a 22re anyday. We didn't get the diesel engines in America sadly
@@vicmccartin Turbo diesel engines are the best gotta love the low down torque. The only time I'd prefer a petrol/gasoline engine is for driving on sand.
That's awesome, now I really want to see what kind of power it can actually make/handle.
People say 600 on stock bottom end all day long.
If you've ever been ready to load in a motor on a dyno and got a bog and a pop,,, GO AHEAD AND HIT THAT SUBSRIBE BUTTON!
Keep it coming Richard ! Loving these videos
I have seen this on 4.6 sohc motors. They ported the blower a little bit to allow the turbos to contribute better.
Compound setups Stack Boost! AKA Adds to the primary Boost and HP!
the supercharger multiplies the incoming pressure ratio. You should have ended up with 2.37:1, or just over 20 psig. So you're getting a little bonus, or some sensors aren't reading exactly.
fwiw, Harrop experimented with the 1.9L TVS blower (as on the LSA) on the series 3.
last time i saw a blower being fed by a turbo on a gm v6 was a old detriot diesel 6v 92 engine.& it was only rated at 300 hp & 950 lb/ft. if i recall correctly.
Yeah it's a 2 stroke diesel. Iirc all 2 stroke diesels need a SC
Super cool. I bet the drivability would be great on that combo.
No idea why you do this but fascinating all the same!
To make power
I made Pistons for this motor. Great stuff.
really interesting video .Great work
very cool !!!! id really like to see a 4.3 vortec test with a 3582, gt45, 6262 ect...
My understanding of compound boost systems is you multiply the individual pressure ratios together, not add them.
So the turbo running 7psi has a PR of 1.4 and the supercharger at 12psi has a PR of 1.8.
1.4 * 1.8 = 2.6 (39psi) which is about 24psi(gauge)
Really starts to make a big difference when the PR's are over both 2 (14.7psi)
You are correct, the pressure ratios multiply
You are both mistaken.
You need to differentiate between PR and Boost PSI numbers. If the air being fed to the SC or small turbo is compressed then 14.7psi is no longer the atmospheric pressure it sees is it.
I have a compound turbo setup on my car. Boost pressures do add together, however you need to look at it like this
Big turbo ingests air from atmosphere which is 14.7psi and multiplies it by 2x for a total boost of 14.7psi gauge(29.4psi absolute) - So PR is 2:1
Small turbo(or sc) inlet sees 29.4psi absolute at its inlet now. So for it to also have a PR of 2:1 it has to output 29.4psi itself.
So boost at the big turbo is 14.7psi and the small turbo is 29.4psi. Both PRs are still 2:1 and total boost is 44.1psi.
2:1 x 2:1 minus atmospheric pressure = 3bar or 44.1psi.
Thats how boost PSi numbers can add together but the PRs do multiply. A great source of information is the compound turbo thread on yellowbullet.com by Kevin Jewer.
Compound turbos on a straight 5 or straight 6. Torque curves on those little motors is pretty amazing curious if a boost curve could be made to use the available torq throughout entire RPM. GT2860 and GT3582?? Possibly slightly larger big turbo.
I think the cylinder heads and cam are terrible. Fix this and the boost will drop at the high end with a massive increase in power.
I would like to see a test between a certain boost level into the intake of the supercharger with a stock 3.8 pulley, and then running the smallest pulley you have with a lower boost into the supercharger. It would be cool to see if the restriction people complain about with compounding these engines is only due to a stock pulley and not spinning the supercharger very fast.
The turbo is more efficient than the blower so with more of the boost coming from the turbo it will make more power.
You have one of the best jobs ever
If you want a ridiculous "other guys" motor? You should try a twin turbo setup on a 2000-2004 Ford 3.8L v6. I had a 2000 V6 Mustang with a twin turbo that made 370 wheel horsepower and 398ft-lbs at 13psi with a pair of t3/t04 hybrid turbos. Wasn't as fast as a cobra, but the insurance was way cheaper!
I would've added the smaller pulley and see what it would do. I know the supercharger alone petters out around the 400 range. But I'd port it to see the difference to.
Richard you did well on the subject of needing a turbo cam for turbocharging have you ran a solid roller cam with hydraulic lifters or hydraulic roller cam using solid roller lifters, if not it would be interesting.
yes-that has been done at westech a lot on BBC applications
Not a great idea running solid lifters on an hydraulic cam. Hydraulic cams typically have .006" closing ramps on both intake and exhaust. Solid Lifter cams usually have .012" intake and .018" exhaust. Over time, an hydraulic cam will beat up a solid lifter valvetrain. It's no problem to use hydraulic lifters on a solid lifter cam.
@@richardholdener1727 Any issues that you can state?
In Aust we just built Chev bow tie V6, twin 3582 turbos. with all the good components. interested once it hits the dyno. we will let you know how it goes !
definitely
Great video, although I don't exactly know how it works (just my lack of reading and no first hand experience). However it would seem like doing something like this would improve the efficiency of the engine even though a roots style supercharger uses the engine to turn the rotors (I might be entirely incorrect though).
So I'm guessing the missing variable for the extra boost is the percentage of boost the blower is at over atmospheric. So in an equation it would look something like this 10+7a=23 guessing at your barometric pressure for that day I'm assuming about a 75% increase over atmospheric with blower only so if u solve for a=1.75 or 75% it comes out to 22.25psi and that's pretty close for what it is! So Kool that the blower boosts the boost!! Love your videos bud keep up the great work!
To figure out the final boost you multiply the pressure ratio of the supercharger and the turbo. (14.5 + boost/14.5)(14.5 + boost/14.5)*14.5 - 14.5
@@Joshie2256 that would= 21.82 psi pretty close to my quick math and both are a single psi or so from actual. we need actual barometric pressure readings from that day in that dyno cell to be any more accurate and still probably won't be exact do to heat expansion and other inefficiencies and variables we can't account for.
Every time I see you and a 3800 I get excited can't wait for more. Super excited to see turbo only. What 80lbs were you running in this vid?
accel (deka)
I do so love this build/platform ..
Let's make some noise!
I would love to see this setup actually in something, I think a Buick Park Avenue would be awesome.
Early 90’s Bonneville or Oldsmobile 88.
@@RHYNOMAN12 Bonneville would be a sleeper for sure haha
Probably need to port the blower and bigger throttle body for huge gains.
Not only is this one of my all time favorite engines,.. it's also so fucking easy to work on !!!!
This combo just gets better.
this is possibly the coolest test yet but flipping pistons would smooth out the boost from supercharger .too soon?
I'LL ASK SMOKEY!
@@richardholdener1727 it might be awhile before you get a answer though.🤣
We learned more is better! Always.....Better.
Thank you for all the interesting tests
Ok....now it's time for some spray!
Question can you do the same on the Ford 3.8 V6 wonder what you can get out of those engines as well.
Hell yea! I hope to see turbo only till she blows video!
Richard is the mad man of westtech
If Detroit Diesel had made gas engines. Lol
Thank you richard
okay, so why I would consider a supercharger and then a compounded turbo later, is I'd be using a vvt 1.6L engine that doesn't make a ton N/A maybe 95hp at the wheels but would build it for high rpm. I'd consider a compound dual turbo build, but I'm not sure if overall engine response would be worse, as I believe superchargers effectively increase lower rpm torque as well as overall torque vs a gradual increase with a single turbo
Please:
Run a test with a hobs switch activating the stock bypass on the supercharger at 18 PSI and turn the waste gate on the turbo up to 25 PSI or so.
Can we get a cam or a higher rocker ratio for this? Let it breath a little more.
We need to see this same setup with that kenne belle you tested! Also I'd like to see what kinda power changes it makes going from e85 to say, E70, or E50, or even E25, because around here we only see 50-75% ethanol at the pump 90% of the time.
down to e50-the power likely won't change
lets see a video about that terminator compound dyno you mentioned!
The Agent of chaos is in the house
Best YT ive watched this year. Thank you for doing this!
Your compound boost setup worked better than Gale Banks'!
The next part of the test that I hope you do is to run the turbo alone at the same intake manifold pressure, and see how the power compares.
I think that's because Gale was using a twin screw supercharger, which has internal compression, vs a roots, which is just an "air mover" that relies completely upon the restriction provided by the engine's ability to receive the incoming charge )or in the case of the Buick, lack thereof).
Gale Banks, king of finding a "problem" that doesn't exist and "banking" off of poorly educated viewership.
I think his test was done on diesel
@@richardholdener1727 Yes, it was a 7.0 Duramax with a 5L Whipple, 2 turbos, an intercooler, and an aftercooler. He was trying to get 1200 hp, and couldn't make it. In the process of trying to figure out what was wrong, he slowed down the Whipple, and picked up -200 hp. But the bsfc of the engine was lousy, and the egt was way higher than a diesel should have. What frustrated me about Gale's test was he never posted interstage pressures.
I wanna see you get ahold of an even bigger supercharger for sure
That boost curve with just the blower are you sure the blower isn't worn out I can't remember if that supercharger has internal seals
Interesting... I've got a series I L27. I also have a pairs of pre-series I LN3 heads, and one piece intake manifold (which I believe the intake can be mounted to a L27?)... Don't care for plastic intakes (plastic anything)... Any way, I haven't seen anything regarding the LN3, or L27 on your videos, but perhaps you can give me some advice in interchangeability, or differences compared to the 3800 engines you've built.
Let’s go !! Exciting times !
I don’t think most people know how compound boost works. 7 psi + 10 psi = 23 psi? This doesn’t make sense at first if you don’t know what to look for. Since these boost pressures are just multipliers of atmospheric pressure, the math is different. Look up a compound boost chart on google images.
I believe it’s 10 psi / 7 psi =1.42
14.7(atmosphere) * 1.42 = 21psi roughly
Nice job Richard!!!
the PRs are multiplied but that is not as funny as a common core math joke
Would love if you can, to test camshafts in these motors. There’s a big market for reverse pattern turbo cams for this particular platform and I remember from your other videos you don’t think they’re the way to go. Would love to see if that stands true on the 3800s!
Great Idea-reverse pattern cams
Can you do a dyno on the L32 Gm 3.4 V6 from 93-95 Camero / Firebird some of these come with a five spd
Surprised it held together
Crank up the turbo and see how much it can handle before it popps
See what it will handle. Blow it up!!!
What do you think the cylinder pressure is at 22 lb?
Something like this in a chevette would be pretty fun.
I have a supercharged v6 I am wanting a eBay turbo added in not sure what I'll need besides a tune an to keep it street legal not sure if that would be possible but
Love this.... mauh please!
Super Turbo !
Best Video yet
I’m converting my engine to turbo…..I have gutted the M-90’ And when I say gutted, very gutted.
I cut off the super charger bearing holders…..if you look at the throttle body all the material has been removed
It took me forever to remove all that material…..I gutted it so I can use my short stack intercooler….I even cut the intake to make it look like the 5th generation intake.
nice
You are the man.