ไม่สามารถเล่นวิดีโอนี้
ขออภัยในความไม่สะดวก
HOW TO: COMPOUND BOOST 3800 L32-REPOST WITH DYNO PULLS
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ส.ค. 2024
- REPOST OF ORIGINAL VIDEO BUT WITH DYNO PULLS-FORGOT THEM!!
CAN YOU RUN A CHEAP TURBO ON A JUNKYARD BLOWER MOTOR? COMPOUND BOOST BABY! CHECK OUT PART 3 OF THE 3800 L32 VIDEO SERIES WHERE I ADDED A CHEAP, EBAY GT45 TURBO TO THE EQUALLY CHEAP, JUNKYARD 3800 SERIES 3 L32 V6. THE V6 WAS ALREADY FACTORY EQUIPPED WITH AN M90 (ROOTS) SUPERCHARGER. BACK IN PARTS 1 & 2, WE FIXED THE HEADS AND THEN ADDED MODS, BUT NOW IT WAS TIME TO ADD EXTRA BOOST FROM A TURBO! WILL IT MAKE BOOST? WILL IT EVEN SURVIVE? FULL RESULTS WITH BOOST CURVES! ENJOY.
I would love to see supercharger pulley sizes changed, less boost from the supercharger and more from the turbo and vise versa.
Probably less from the supercharger just because you can't easily cool that air but you can from the turbo
Everybody here should thank Brian Pryes, he is the one who helped Richard to get the 3800 running with the HP setup. I am the one who put Richard in touch with this guy, just glad to help.
thnx for the help Charles and hooking us up with Brian (I searched back through my emails for his name)-would not have happened without you guys!
@@richardholdener1727 You're welcome. Like I said, just glad to help. I hope it didn't seem as though I was patting myself on the back. Brian is a good guy who builds performance transmission down in the Houston area. He is one of a few guys who swapped the 3800 into his Grand National or T-Type. He's making some awesome power with the 3800 series 2/3 and doesn't have to worry about the block giving up on him, like with the Grand National 3.8L.
Can't wait for the turbo only or twin turbo setup. I could see this little engine making 700 or 800 hp. With forged internals, easily could safely make 1000 or 1100.
Can the block handle 800 ft-lbs? Unless you rev it out passed 7k, that's the neighborhood it'll be playing in.
I guess the question is: How different is this 3800 from the old Regal GNX motor?
@@rideredRC51 I don't know for sure, I do know that people have put down 700 whp with stock internals. If it had forged internals, 800 ft-lbs shouldn't be no problem.
@@TheFarCobra The main design features that the 3800 series 2/3 has over the 3.8L found in the Grand National/T-Type/GNX is the block skirt is thicker and the stock main caps are thicker along with mains being cross-bolted. Also the 3800 pre-series 1, series 1, 2, 3 are on center blocks which allows for more reliable power production. The stock heads on the 3800 out flows stock heads on the 3.8L. As a matter of fact the stock heads on the 3800 can be ported such that they follow just as much as the after aluminum heads on for the 3.8L. Of course the 3800 was setup with a roller cam, the 3.8L came stock with a flat tappet cam. However, there are some guys who have made passes in the 8's with the 3.8L block, around 8.70 or a bit faster. I am sure the 3800 built properly should be able to surpass the 3.8L. The 3.8L is known as a junk block as it has failed at around 600 whp. The block has split at that power level. I am sure the 3800 could handle that no problem.
@@TheFarCobra think they are completely different engine families
Awesome. I'd be interested to see the GT45 on it's own, not because I think it will be better (maybe a bit up top), but because I'd like to see how much it's losing out down low from spool- I reckon a lot.
I'm wondering how much it will help up top too, as though it will be more efficient turbo alone, it will be higher pre-turbine backpressure (vs almost none when compound) which will negate the increased compressor efficiency somewhat.
Great stuff!
Just my 2 cents but this motor with just a turbo is the way to go. Great video as always!
I bet lower down it will lose out massively vs what it's making here. Maybe more up top though of course, albeit at higher pre turbine backpressure.
I have to keep reminding myself that is a V6....I am familiar as I owned an 01 Ultra... Great numbers and would probably wake up a good many applications. Power on demand no lag. Sweet! The boost graph follows the same curve to the top on both mods which I think indicates it was breathing well. I was surprised by the gains.
Richard great job! I absolutely loved the L67 growing up. The cars are still super obtainable for cheap and absolutely a blast to mildly modify.
Love the torque spread from 3000 upwards very impressive combo which is also very simple. A good cam would help lower the restriction but on a stock bottom end there's no need to be pushing higher rpm
Good work
Another great video thanks Richard. It would be great to see the TC targeting a fixed manifold pressure with a boost controller and do that with the biggest blower pulley, then the smallest blower pulley and then with no SC, just the TC. All cases trying to make the same manifold absolute pressure. That would be a fantastic comparison, especially the way the torque curve builds from low rpm
For a street car, daily driver a well sorted compound/Twincharger would be a thing of beauty. I have plans on the drawing board for a Toyota 4AGZE (1.6L) Twincharger with a fully variable 60mm throttle body for the SC bypass. The SC also has a clutch, that full combo properly should be a pretty amazing drive. Very complicated, but that's part of the charm, a bit of a science project.
I swapped a 2005 Impala l67 into my 2001 Buick century back in 2015. I got the motor from a junkyard in Ohio that speciallizes in 3800s. I think it's the only l67 century out there :) I had to run two ecms, stock century to run the starter and dash, and stock impala ecm for the engine. A few sensors had to be split and fed to both ecms. Had a lot of fun with it, no mods, then I gave the car to a friend who's wife drove their kids around in it for about 3 years with no problems. They got a new car so I will be getting the car back and will make a cool video about it.
cool stuff
Thank you Mr. Holdener. This was excellent. Very interesting and helpfull.
When compounding one does not add boost together, one multiplies the pressure ratings. 7 psi boost is 1.4828:1 in pressure rating. 10 psi boost is 1.6897:1 in pressure rating. 1.4828 x 1.6897 = 2,51:1 total pressure rating. That is the same as 21.83 psi boost. :)
479 hp / 2.51 = 190 Hp Na / 232 CID = 0.82 Hp/CID as NA engine.
Way better than the "stock" 289 hp @ 9.5 psi (1.66: 1 PR) from 232 CID = 0.75 Hp/NA/CID
yes-but that won't let me use the common core math joke
The Ford GT guys pull the supercharger off and go pure turbo ... with impressive results. I wonder what the results would be doing the same on the 3800? Ultimately, it is just eliminating the un-intercooled boost from the supercharger and turning the turbo up to compensate.
You can get more max power that way but you can still get a ton of power compound boosted and it will have a badass power curve which is important on a street car. It's not always about max peak power some forget that.
guess it makes more boost than it should, because of the suction from the SC makes the turbo deliver more boost before WG opens.
They don't add X psi, they work by creating pressure ratios. The blower at 5psi is 1.35:1, the turbo at 7psi is 1.48:1. Multiply those together (with atmospheric being 14.5psi) and you get 1.998:1 or 29psi absolute - which is 14.5psi. That fits perfectly til the SC pressure ratio goes thru the roof due to cam causing a back-up. Every 3psi you add with the turbo makes 4psi at the valves.
Love me a Turbo 3800. Nice Job Richard!
One of the local tuners had a turbo'd 2000 GTP that was putting down 444whp on the dyno. It was one of the fastest (in the mid-2000s) around here. Surprised the hell outta many supposedly fast cars. There still might be youtube videos of it floating around in here. IIRC it was a red or blue sedan
[edit to add]
History note:
In WW2 the P-38 Lightning used a turbo-supercharger setup with intercooling on an Allison V12 engine that produced roughly 1600hp
It would be interesting to see what the difference in mass flow is, rather than just psi in the intake. I’m guessing the rising boost curve means this combo would really like a lot more cam, too. Looking forward to the next test!
A custom grind, all the lift the ported heads can handle, keep seat duration close to the same. Maybe extend it so you can pull clean to 6500 with a peak right at 6000 would make for a mean street engine with a good amount of reliability. In other words don't change the curve or range it has just amplify it. Would live with stock bottom end if you could do that.
"ok guys what did we learn" it needs a cam, ported heads, a Whipple fed by the turbo, e85. Solid 500/500 for seriously low bucks.
whipple /= low buck
It would be far cheaper for him to get another $95 ebay t3/t4 46trim and feed that with the gt45. The 46trim would probably make 300-350hp alone, meaning it would be like slapping a GT45 on a 4.8-5.3L LS.
@@denisohbrien cheaper than building comparable broad range of power na out of a V8, remember we're talking about a junkyard engine here. And if it blows up you take the blower with to the next engine, so yes it is relatively low bucks. Everything is relative my friend. 😉
Whaaaaaaaaaa? 480 hp from a 3.8???? 17 kinds of awesome. Holy crap!
Ppl make well beyond that at the tires (not an engine dyno) with turbo 3.7 mustangs. Ppl make up to 600 wheel on stock motors they are super impressive cars for the price they can be had for its a shame they get alot of hate because it's a mustang and it'd not a v8 basically.
Great stuff, Richard! I thought that maybe a big throttle body would have helped the supercharged 3800, especially when the blower speed was raised with smaller pullies.
Wondering if the turbo is just overpowering the supercharger, thereby nullifying it. Would be interesting to see the power and boost curve with the turbo only !,
There's no 'overpowering', the cam just doesn't flow for shit. When an SC flows X air per revolution, rising boost means less of that air is moving thru the head.
The only difference you'd see with the turbo-only making X boost is a lot of lag, but very similar peak power as turbo+SC making X boost...plus the HP the SC eats from being driven.
If they target the exact same peak boost pressure with just the turbo it'll provide that through the mid range too but it'll take longer to spool
2 step or anty lag rolling takes all and I mean all the lag out so no lag !!!
Was good to mention the favourable conditions on the dyno vs in a road car, but would have liked to see this compound combination with a suitable camshaft, as the stock cam is quite restrictive. Also a bypass valve around the S/C, opening once turbo is producing boost would be interesting to see.
I would love to see a 2.7 twin turbo audi engine (bel block) on your channel; out of a S4 B5 series! Would this ever be a possibility? I believe this engine / platform still has allot if fans. Your the best, thanks for your content!!!
Bell Housing, ECU and harness are all the issues with that motor
@@richardholdener1727 hello how are you I have 2000 Chevy Silverado short bed whit the 5.3 ls what do you recommend to make more faster
I'd love to see the boost referenced from inside the head and connected to the turbo waste gate; it should then provide a flatter boost curve and help to tune out some of that rising curve from the blower
inside the head? a waste gate reference after the blower will open the gate all the time (no turbo boost)
@@richardholdener1727 I meant intake manifold, sorry. Point being, if you want to limit your compounded boost to say 25psi, reference post-blower and attach to wastegate
The supercharger increases the pressure at the end kind of compensating for the head flow, putting the boost reference on the intake would only make the engine gain a lot of torque and maybe even lose power
@@braziliansheetbox2497 the way I intended will ensure a "final" boost number, hopefully flattening out the curve of the blower by itself. Depends where the turbo lights up though
Now do compound turbos. ( two turbos one is larger than the other, the big one feeds the compressor off the little one which is the primary) bit of a plumbing pain buuuut I haven’t seen anything beat compound turbos.
I have a compound turbo video up already on an ls
You should have ported the blower and intake. It's usually what owners of the supercharged 3800 do.
So the turbo provides a steady 7 pounds and the blower previously was making a peak of 10 pounds. But previously the blower was taking in atmospheric air not already compressed air. I’m guessing that’s why the total boost pressure is higher than the 17 you would expect from simple addition of the two separate boost pressure?
Robot Holdener never sleeps
Want to see what this can do with cam and blower pulley both with and without turbo
Good stuff Richard. I'm waiting anxiously for the next video
This is best Richard.
My buick has a 3800 series 3 sittin in it in great condition.. lol 😆
in compund setups i always figured the compressors multiplied rather than added boost, so say a turbo putting out 14psi is 2:1, well, feed it 14psi of boost it wont get you 28psi (14+14) itll get you 56psi. I presume positive dispacement blowers will do the same?!
Either way I have a 3.0d E60 5 series, and plan on putting an ebay gt35 over the stock gt2060v, got the turbo, and all the plumbing, just need to find time to take the car off the road for a few evenings :) so loving this compound stuff, and making me think i should pick up an ebay GT45 instead...
multiply the pressure ratios-but common core math is funnier
Hope the next installments is N/A Camaro (ideally) intake, and GT45 and intercooler. This setup works, and has twin charged coolness factor, but intercooled turbocharged is always my favorite way.
The non dbw (96-98) camaro intakes have a plug on the side that taps into the internal pcv setup (iirc) use that to not put boost into the crankcase (you would still need to block the pvc port at the throttlebody)
I was curious about twin charging one of these, now i dont need to look up as much
I wanna see a 6.0 power stroke turbo. Vgt on a gas job
So get a 5.3 with a cheap camshaft or get the v6 with a supercharger, and a turbocharger, and e85....got it.
Depends on what it's going in.
I knew a dude with a gm 4.3 V6 in a chevette and it was pretty quick.
This would fly.
would be interesting to see the power difference (at the same boost) between s/c and turbo'd n/a intake, but to put a n/a intake on a s/c 3800 s2/3, you need to swap the heads as well due to fuel injector location (in the intake n/a, in the head s/c)
could also compare fwd intake vs rwd fbody intake
we can use the na intake-we just plug the injector holes (but that is also an intake change)
@@richardholdener1727 there is also the issue of the n/a manifolds using internal pcv system, but on a dyno you just block the port and run breathers
It looks to be operating at 1.68 pressure ratio then adding 7psi to inlet just increases at about x 1.68 absolute pressure
You're my hero ❤
I fully expected the supercharger to make more boost at low RPMs, like isn't it supposed to be the main advantage of root blowers?
Roots style superchargers like the one in the video are propelled by the crank pulley. The advantage of having the blower sitting directly on top of the engine is its ability to directly force air down into the lower intake runners. By means of twin rotors that sit inside the blower housing. Downside is that they often suffer from heat soak. Centrificals (the higher quality ones) reroute the air to an intercooler thats mounted in front of the radiator. Similar to a turbocharger. Then back to the engine. Both significantly decrease inlet ambient temperature with those setups. Downside is they both are dependent on higher engine rpms. However some larger displacement over head valve pushrod engines can make boost off idle. With the disadvantage of lower rpms. Overhead valve engines greatly benefit from turbos and centrificals due to their ability to rev higher and maintain that boost curve.
Ideally in race applications. A DOHC motor will make better use of turbochargers. Ferrari is a good example. Over 700hp from a tiny 3.8L DOHC V8. Thats phenomenal efficency from such a low displacement.
I would be interested in seeing the supercharger bypass valve actuated by post turbo pre supercharged boost. I would love to see the efficiency difference. Especially with a 3.0 or smaller pulley for max low rpm torque.
A really big-bore BOV could bypass the blower after a certain boost pressure, as it would feed to a post-blower intake manifold, yes?
The 4.3 would be cool though
That things needs a cam and heads
A lot of information, had to look at it a few times, thats a lot of testing.
Could that boosts curvy because the cam is opening so little and for such a short time that it's building pressure in the intake but not getting much in the cylinders? No matter what it is it worked well.
Think about what you're asking here, if the boost isn't making it to the cylinders why would the dyno results be showing such an increase in output? Boost pressure isn't going to know anything about lift or off the seat times. If the pressure is raised, air flow is going to be pushed to the destination, if it is restricted, the pressure will increase and in this case, the pressure was limited to 7 PSI between the turbo and the charger, in the end total boost was around 23 PSI which is way more then the OE system of the 3800 was engineered for in the first place. HP and TQ shown on the dyno charts point out all that is needed to be seen, the combo makes a lot more power then either without. Increasing the turbo boost on its own would require more exhaust back pressure and flow which equates to more heat. Using the turbo to supply PSI to the charger makes for less work from either part to get the 23 PSI and since the charger gets the throttle response that a simple turbo will not give and the turbo boosts flow at the upper range with less demand on the charger drive system. As far as getting the intake charge cooled down, there is a bolt in IC that fits under the charger, raises it 2 inches and can lower air temps as much as 120 degrees or more lower. If that's not enough then put a cooler between the turbo and charger then put in the IC in there, getting the heat exchangers is the only thing that would be an issue but where there's a will, there's a way. Or was that where there's a wheel there's a way?
Well that Blower is a hunk of crap in the 1st place, But to see the effect adding Turbo on top of supercharger which I saw long ago w/a 6:71 Blower & 2 turbos on BBC In Old Nova & it worked then so why wouldt this work on something real? Its tuff get my 14:71 F11 over abt 46lbs but I here abt Turbo cars running 60+lbs all the time..I could hit 50+lbs w/a screw supercharger like PSI-D Or More w/a PSI-C, but if I could throw turbos run directly into the Hat, if the KB block can hold it I would think should make easy 60-80lbs w/o having to run the Blower very hard which ofcourse would keep the intake temperature down running blower slower, I wonder how well this could work Or should I run the engine on bunch of Nitromethen..Ive already run 33% Nitro w Alcohol as majority additive which is krazy power..I wonder what would work best Or is it better Not to run Turbo, Instead run Blower harder? Idt that works bcz of the heat Usuallly after running 60 over or so..Bunch of things uve now given me ideas to try out by doing this & reminding me of Rick's Nova from the 1980s, thanks again for Ur videos, they are really good🎸🎸
Needs some more camshaft!!
Stick a cam in it. Will that drop boost pressure and raise HP I wonder
Yes. The more efficient the engine is I.e. more head flow,, bigger cam, headers etc the boost will drop and power goes up. More power on less boost is always good.
@@midnight347 This is key but ignored by the majority.
@@mex351 agreed
Why not put 15 psi spring in the gate and hook the line between supercharger and the heads?
you could try that
What would it take to make a Ford 3.8 stand up to the same abuse? I am imagining a compound boost Thunderbird supercoupe.
Richard, I am building a 3800 with a turbo and a m90 supercharger. I would like to know what kind of MAP sensor and PCM setup that you used to tune your engine?
we used a 3 bar map and Holley HP ECU
What I'd like to know is if this could be done with the OE PCM. I have an SSEi and would like to do this. I had it reflashed for the build I did already, but not sure how I would work up the complete setup. Since this needs to have the Transmission controller and all the rest of the stuff, like traction control and whatever else is tied into the PCM.
Why does E85 make more power than 110 octane racing fuel? How much octane is E85?
not so much about octane but E85s ability to resist detonation at temperature. its almost diesel imho. so in an application where inlet tmps run away, it *shines*
Its not octane
They make a stud gurdle for these
Maybe this is a question for the Q&A, but I’m wondering how close this compound setup is to other factory twincharged engines like the Lancia 037 and the Nissan Superturbo. IIRC, those were for driveability, with super boost down low transitioning to turbo boost on the top end. Richard: Would the plumbing routing you fabricated here do that, or is this more of a drag setup, all about top line numbers?
the Lancia actually routed the turbo around the blower after a given boost was reached-lots of plumbing-but what I have here works well for the street
Throw all the boost to that thing crank it up give it 40 PSI boost see if the heads will hold LOL
Give the head bolts an extra full turn first 😃
Did you add ring gap on the 3800?
not yet
Do you plan on doing a Big Bang on this?
Because I can't see it in the comments yet... compound boost is not simple A+B=C....
yes-we know-but funnier the other way
@@richardholdener1727 Jokes need a little bit more work
Also I want to mention that the L32 connecting rods are supposed to be stronger then the L67. We'll see.
are the internals in the L32 forged?
@@richardholdener1727 Hot-forged powdered metal.
I wonder how much low speed torque and spool time you would loose by going single or twin turbo
just need the right size
What did you use to tune this setup I'm trying to find a standalone to run this type of combo but I can't find anyone who knows.
holley
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks alot
;)
Up. Side. Down. Bouy ya turnin me....
I hope that motor does turn inside out.
Up all night there Tricky Ricky?
80's porn intro music, LOL...
Personally I blame squirrels
Why not run these motors like they would in a car? At least like 180° water temp. Who gaf what a motor can do on a Dyno? Nobody watching this has a Dyno they just build engines for like you. We're looking at what would be possible in our cars.
Who GAF what they do in an unrealistic situation on a Dyno I mean.
I have a good reason not to do it.....it won't work in a car. Nit even talking about packaging. Running it at 140 degrees is dumb. Please stop the unrealistic testing. None of the numbers you are putting up mean squat. We don't have a Dyno at home to play on so nothing you do can be used as a baseline for a combo in a car. It's been fun for awhile but how about some realistic testing for things that will work in a car? Race gas numbers are pointless. Run pump and e85. Run 180+ degrees water. If I'm talking out my ass go put something you build in a car with the same tune and see how long it lives.
Can't wait for the turbo only or twin turbo setup. I could see this little engine making 700 or 800 hp. With forged internals, easily could safely make 1000 or 1100.
I don't think the block will hold. My guess is he'll unintentionally big bang it at around 650+
@@xnotx2 Well, we'll see. I do know some guys in Australia who have made 700 whp on stock internals. With forged internals, pistons and rods with the stock crank they have made 1000 whp in their Commodore.
@@charleslowe522 Yea these are great little motors.
@@xnotx2 Yes they are. It will be interesting to see how power the engine can handle. On the engine dyno, the ramp into power is slow compared to a vehicle say at the track. For instance, when I was running my Grand National at the track I would use a foot brake to build about 5 psi of boost then launch and I would be at 25 psi in less than a second. Whereas on the engine dyno here, boost is built slower and the engine doesn't go from 150 ft-lbs of torque to 550 ft-lbs in a second. Without that sudden increase in torque, I believe the 3800 will stay together and hopefully make 800 hp. If any lets loose it will probably be the rods or pistons. Even with 3.8L found in the Grand National, there was guy making over 650 whp and 600 ft-lbs of torque with a stock shortblock. Stock rods, pistons and crank. Although the crank in the Grand National is really strong, as it is made out of nodular iron. After amassing over 10 minutes worth of mid 9s passes, it wasn't the rotating assembly that gave it, it was the stock #3 main cap that broke. Sorry so long.
that rate of acceleration you describe is easier on the motor than a sustained load on the dyno (we can change the rate of acceleration on the dyno too)