Pageau is so adept at navigating a conversation amicably and effectively, especially considering he’s speaking to such abstract or difficult-to-pin-down ideas. it’s a big part of his credibility for me
See, this is why I subbed- I LOVE this kind of discussion!!- and they're so very polite and actually work through the issues instead of cussing, and it's such a great video m'man!! THANK YOU!! I had to come back and watch again. !!
Jonathon Pageau, I continue to watch and listen to you because you are literally embodying and vocalizing aspects of Christ that have been hidden from the public consciousness, helping redeem the Truth of Christ from the distortions and distractions. You spoke what I have "seen" and also spoken: All Truth and All Light of Love IS Christ (Light/Consciousness) and there is a hierarchy to how we participate. I can't tell you how excited I am that you exist and that you have taken on this public work. I have been planting seeds in the trenches in preparation. It almost killed me, but I was able to make it back.
@@bobrossantichrisst Blood of the Martyr is the seed of the church. Tara has been in the trenches of the polytheistic and atheistic/scientism...in there, she has been talking to people about the Truth, confessing that God is Love...with her words, she shared His Word, that is the seed. She is risking her life when she brings the light into the dark... Blood of the Martyr is the seed of the church. aka: Tara be like Johnny Appleseed seeding pagan grounds...except the seeds she is planting carry His Word.
Gotta be one of my favorite episodes so far. Really awesome to see how far this channel has come, and watching Lev grow as an excellent host. Some of the older episodes were exhausting free-for-alls but I'm enjoying how things are a lot more deeply focused and specific now.
Christmas came a week early! I truly wasn't expecting this. Though I was a little disappointed at how short it was. We definitely need a part 2 in 2022!
Hope for part 2 as well... Been struggling with seeing how all things come together, but the more I explore religious thought & see, the more it seems that the right place for wisdom to be gathered around is through Christ. Though other religions seem to contain wisdom I haven't found in Christianity yet, Christianity seem to have the structure that brings the best in us together through the whole hierarchy
The spirituality of my ancestors was always with me. I’m just starting to realize that. Polytheism/Animism is decentralized freedom and Christianity is apart that too. Spirituality is a far bigger and grander journey than one centralized source. There is no such thing as myth, oral tradition is a reliable source of truth, and it’s beautiful. May all the Gods bless us with their wisdom.
@@Vgallo interesting. I've seen his film Buffalo 66 and I really enjoyed it. Did you check with him to see if he's cool with you using his name and image as your own?
Johnathan has such an enchanting and forceful and almost hypnotizing way of speaking... it is really hard to debate him or even follow up on a point of his. I feel like he would "beat" just about anyone. I do really feel like I'm going to another world when he gets going.
@@CourtesyPhone buffet style isn’t perennialism. Styxx is not a perennialist no serious perenialist would suggest changing spiritual paths and mixing and matching
Strange. I had no idea that this was happening and I haven’t followed styx in forever, but yesterday I felt drawn to say a prayer for him. I said a quick prayer and forgot about it. Woke up to this stream this morning.
@@xiuhcoatl4830 good energy doesn’t go to waste in my opinion. Besides, neither of us have full certainty about the future. I don’t consider it a waste either way. Would you consider it a waste of time to look upon someone and desire a good for them that may never come to pass? Prayer, it seems, is just a higher form of that from my understanding and I don’t think it’s a waste.
Styx really fell off in insisting that modern Norse pagans are the same thing as the ancient Norse pagans. The only real paganism that exists today are things like unadulterated Hinduism in India, or other groups that have remained unbroken to this day. If you do not have the ritual heart to something you do not have it. Environmentalism with larping is not a real religion. Also Styx really showed Jonathan's point and why I left the occult world years ago. You simply will not get to the top of any mountain you will walk around the bases lost, and all mountains are not equal. Truth is not a concept it is a person, The God-Man, Jesus Christ. Also Orthodox Christianity is early Christianity.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 in India the various cultus's still exist, in america it's definitely adulterated. Well I know at least in the early 1900s there was at least still the cults in the ancient sense like there were temples and cults to individual gods that were the local patron.
@@TheMorning_Son I highly doubt it is any good, unless you covered the very clear christology of the new testament, all of the epistles, that of St Athanasius, St Cyril, St Maximus so on and so on your video is garbage
Hedonistically speaking, I regret the years I wasted on occultism as spirituality and hedonism as highest ideal - self-sacrifice and connection to the divine feels so much better.
Occultism is satanism, they are the same exact thing. Either you are with Christ or against him. Luke 11, 23 "“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
@@veilofreality yeah, that is what I was implying. But it surely is not obvious to most "spiritual seekers" who think they are doing something good! It took me years and dozens of hours of JBP to prepare for this realization.
@@johannakunze3300 I'm happy for you that by the Grace of God, you did come to this realization. The real journey now commences! We're all just pilgrims on the road to our Lord. God Bless.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 it's the same tradition. The problem is mainly during and pair Aquinas western Europeans more and more infiltrated the theology of the westvand turned it into what it is today; lifeless and loveless. It's not Catholic vs Orhtodox. We shouldn't be separate. Jut accept the perils of Western Euuropeanism as displayed here by this "pagan", and we can begin to heal the schism. Then heal the one with the orient. Stop asking for silly things like to bend the knee to your pope. You can have the first among equals chair. It belongs to Rome, but there nothing Rome about Rome anymore.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 exactly. So tell your heretical Pope to repent the blasphemy of the Papal Supremacy, and rejoin the Council as the Patriarch of Rome and first among equals. My family was under the jurisdiction of Rome and in 1054 the entire congregation saw the great evil and denounced it. Then joined Constantinople.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 So the principal of unity among the Churches is an Italian Prince and not the Holy Spirit? How is your Apostate Prince a worshipper of the goddess Pachamama going to bring about a godly the unity of the Churches? Why should Orthodox Christians seek to be in Communion with Rome?
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 Got it, because I watch Harry Potter your Pope worships the goddess Pachamama. Interesting argument you have there. I myself prefer the Orthodox Church that has her center of Unity in Jesus Christ, to your Church that has her center of Unity in an Italian Prince. The worship of the Creator vs. the worship of the creation.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 Good argument, I will worship Pope Francis! I convert to your Prince! I renounce Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and will only worship Pope Francis, the only true God. Oh, but Francis worships the goddess Pachamama so I will worship her alongside Pope Francis. Now, I am just like you intellectual.
Styxx with the oh so original “there are many paths and the point of spirituality is to just keep seeking novelty at every turn.” Literally the default belief of anyone born after 1960. Pageau’s is the way.
Exactly, it's the world after 1968, after LSD, and (unfortunately) after Joseph Campbell. It's also "à-la-carte." It's superposable with consumer choice-- spirituality is just another avenue of consumer identity. And if anything that's what neo-paganism is, an aesthetic with no actual essence. It's a costume
"What happened to 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'?" Um...same thing that happened to every death penalty in the OT. Christ nullified it in John 8 by laying down that only someone sinless could carry out the sentence, which would exclude everyone but himself (and he opted not to do it). At that point excommunication became the highest penalty the church could deal out. That doesn't preclude the *state* from having power of execution, though -- Romans 13's mention of the (executioner's) "sword" affirms this. And that's largely how executions worked in post-Constantine early Christian societies: Through a combination of church and state power.
The issue with discussing christian mysticism is that it gives the excuse to discount this verifiable historical truths and rationality of the truth. The hardest part about being Christian is having the intellectual torgue to switch between defending the mystical aspect, the historical aspect, and even the rational aspect virtually simultaneously, and I confess I rarely have the grace to maintain composure when detractors quickly segway to attack from a different direction quickly after recieving cogent explanations.
Well, one of the reasons I am no longer a Christian is that I found the "rational" arguments in defense of it to be an utter crock. Complete frauds like Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, Ken Ham and Kent Hovind are cited as "absolute proof" of the truth of the Christian religion. They are no such thing. The only Christian-atheist debate I ever needed was the one between Dave Farina and Kent Hovind. It can be found on TH-cam. Don't get me wrong I'm actually a big fan of Pageau. He has a very good handle on the things that make mankind work. Unfortunately, demonstrable objective fact is not one of those things.
@@andrewstallard6927 Kent Hovind and Ken Ham are seen as absolute clowns by pretty much all Christians. They're creationist fundamentalists. Don't confuse material arguments with rational ones. It's not the same, and Christianity doesn't often make material claims. Ken and Kent do, and they're idiots. Heck, they both have a criminal record if I remember correctly.
Western paganism is so weird. I don't understand how Styx can claim himself as a pagan where he is rather distancing himself from any religion, being barely interested but not participant of them in the long run. I'll give you example why it's weird. I am slavic rodnover, that's kind of paganism as well. I consider myself as rodnover since 2012, i am 28 years old right now. I feel like I still don't have good enough bond with tradition of my ancestors. I have some kind of hunger for studying it but also for PRACTICE! How can you practice and be serious about it when you don't identify yourself with religion that you cultivate? It's a nonsense. It's a game of pretending. If you start a family and raise kids in it they'll call it bluff or play. Kids can see where you are pretending and they say it straight forward. I'll say it the same way: don't make this guy a pagan authority, when he isn't pagan at all, he is an agnostic at best.
I am a Christian and I basically agree with you that you have to practice a religious tradition to fully understand it. You have to become a servant of the god and or gods and goddesses of your tradition to get the full experience. Every religion has goals and you need to agree with and identity with these goals, you yourself need to become part of the story of your chosen Faith. Evey god or goddess has a World View that various gods impose on their People. I have been a serious Christian since I was 12 years old, and I am advancing in the Faith continually as I get older, I now understand many aspects of my religion that I didn't understand when I was younger. It is not a matter of simply reading books, but of living the Faith, entering into the Mystery of your chosen Faith through practicing that Faith. I don't simply read Scripture as a historical book, or as interesting writing form long ago, but as part of a story that I also am called to play my part in. So, I am not on the outside looking in, but an actual player in the drama of my God, His People and the interactions of God with His People and the Peoples of other gods, and the interactions of Gods People with God and the Community of Gods People and the various people groups who belong to other gods. I take my Religion Seriously, because we all eventually become what we worship, so in chosing a god, you are also chosing the type of person you want to become. A Religion is a tool or technology to achieve your desired outcome.
I've tried to get through as much of this video as I can. My views are confirmed-- European Paganism in the contemporary world is just Atheism in a costume. I understood that before I lost my Atheism and it's even more evident after losing it.
Pageau's clarity of mind and ability for pattern recognition is mind-blowing to say the least. He must be one of the most intelligent people in the world.
As Pageau says, self-sacrifice is the principle of Christianity, but self-sacrifice is the antithesis of occultism, which is why Styx is so averse to Christianity.
Great conversation. I grew up LDS (Mormon) but am largely not religious. I always enjoy listening to people explain their various faiths and beliefs though.
@@ZAYA2227 I guess I never "found" it to begin with, but I love Mormonism and their communities. I may become very religious yet with the way the world is heading.
Great discussion between two men eminently capable of elucidating and defending their positions and challenging each other respectfully, fraternally and in good faith. Well hosted and moderated too. Good job guys.
Christian argument in this debate as far as i can tell is something like: We destroyed your worshiping altars, your idols and outlawed your writings and verbal stories and genocided those that crossed us, so you cant know your worshiping your gods right therefore your religion is false. Difficult to pin down ideas because Abraham religions destroyed almost everything.
Pageau is so wrong when he talks about how religion, if we went back to there being many different cults there'd be more fighting etc, in antiquity when polytheism was common there was LESS religious conflict, not more. Monotheism, the arrogance of Christian belief, that rejected all other traditions as falsehoods is what started the religious conflicts, before then cultures viewed other gods with similar characteristics as different interpretations of the same forces in the world.
Yea monotheism in general started the whole absolute intolerance towards other gods. Before that cultures just eother integrated them into the pantheon, interpreted a certain god as being like one of their own, or simply denied it.
Before I start, bare with me, I discuss Pageaus ideas somewhat relentlessly, but I’m sure the man is a very nice kind human being that I wouldn’t like to harm: that being said, let me take off. Reading the comments; is it really that hard to see through Pageau’s carefully woven intelligent sophistry? Almost everything he says can be broken down by healthy hard nosed thinking. He’s concerned about breaking apart and building up, he hates deconstructing, he loves constructing, that’s understandable and shows a good heart, but he’s not so concerned about what is true. I rather break things down than to construct an architecture of semantics and smart rhetoric, like I think he is doing. His ecosystem of ideas is not much more than an the ecosystem of semantics, it’s a world of symbols and simulacra, without touching the reality we inhabit. What does it all point to? Because thats what meaning is, the bridge between a representation and that which is represented… Not to things in themselves as far as I can see. It’s symbols pointing to each other, that point to each other. Nothing more. Inventing new religions a problem? What about Christianity 2000 years ago? Christianity succeeded because there are so many Christians, theosophy not because there aren’t much theosophists? What does it matter, it doesn’t make either of them true. The best ideas and practices of the pagan religions are conserved on Christianity? Nonsense. If Plotinus would see his Enneads in a church and how they are applied by theologians he wouldn’t recognize his worldview even remotely. He would see it as a violent perversion of his clear transparant thinking. He wouldn’t find recognition at all. Yes Christianity tried to absorb things, but that only shows their lack of own ideas. They used pagan ideas and watered them perversely down, and diluted them with their own ideas. So what really is absorbed or preserved from the best of pagan religions? Nothing, but weird transformations. It honestly got rid of and killed lots of pagan insights. Weird pagan ideas? Has Jonathan Pageau ever looked at Christianity from an outsiders perspective? Also quite weird. Weird things can be true though. But Pageau thinks he can dismiss something if something is weird to his own standards and tastes. And not because it’s weird after being scrutinized. Christ so amazing? A lot of what he supposedly said was esoteric, meaning, only for initiates, so most of what he really thought we don’t even know. He didn’t always mean to be understood by the masses. His choice, I have no problem, but don’t think that you know what the man actually taught? His initiates where illiterate disciples (illiterate doesn’t mean unwise or unintelligent, don’t get me wrong) but the man didn’t write anything, and his disciples couldn’t write. What is written about him isn’t without an agenda that you have to keep in mind while letting yourself be informed by the gospels, and it’s hard to distinguish fact from fiction, authentic words from attributed ones. On top of that are the variety of theological ideas distracted from the Hebrew Bible mixed with Hellenistic platonic ideas, and probably yet other influences, projected onto the man Jesus, and there you have Pageaus Jesus. A real thing? No, a construct of ideas, with somewhere something of the man as he actually was. His Jesus, almost all conceptions of Jesus. are more like an homeopathic water. I bet Jesus wouldn’t even remotely recognize his views in what is come to be called Christianity, he wouldn’t recognize any denomination as his own views. He wouldn’t even recognize the apostle Paul as being of the same religion I would claim. Did Jesus have such deep insights in the nature of reality or in human nature? I’m not so sure, honestly, I don’t think so. I could point out many thinkers that are of much higher level that reach much deeper than Jesus. Parmenides, the veda’s, Plotinus, Spinoza, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, to but name a few. Were his ethics so great? Even that I don’t think so. I think Marcus Aurelius already beats Jesus when it comes to ethics. Utilitarian insights, yeah I guess for many millions of people who make their own projections of him by which they live. But the point is, it hasn’t much to do with truths of matters and ideas about reality. Pageau doesn’t play the intellectual game honestly (although he’s probably not aware of it, so he’s forgiven for that) he hops from one category to another for answers and explanations, and therefor his architecture doesn’t seem to collaps.. until you see that the glue, the nails, the cement, solder and tape that holds his building together are made of your own suspending of judgement, imagination, will (for meaning), idolatry for Jesus or Pageau, aesthetic taste, lack of being precise etc. Not of rigorous hard nosed thinking (philosophy), introspection (spirituality) and experimenting with stuff (science). I could go on pointing out problems in Pageaus thinking, but I’m writing a TH-cam comment, not an academic paper. Is Pageau meaningful? Yes. He points to things that point to other things, that points to things, until the circle is complete, without it ever having touched a thing in itself. It’s meaningful but doesn’t end in truth. Is Pageau useful for lots of people? Yeah, probably, fine for all these people. But also that hasn’t anything to do with truth. I wish him the very best though. I have nothing against him as a human living sentient being, he’s as far as I can see a civil and nice man, with the best intentions, nothing but prosperous beautiful things and experiences for him, but I really have not much respect, or regard for his ideas, theology and philosophy, neither for the way in which he got there.
So, the first thing I picked up in this discussion that Styxhexenhammer666 missed was not in finishing the analogy of the different paths of spirituality being different mountains. John Michael Greer draws the analogy of the Truth being a valley, and the path up one of the surrounding mountains or hills leads to a specific view of the Truth from the height and angle of the elevation in question. We might think of ourselves then as wandering out of the Valley of Truth, the animal world of raw instinct that we know as the subconscious mind in modernity, to only to gaze back at it from on high. The Pagan worldview then, is one that competition is the parent of cooperation, and so valuing the view from where you are is every bit as valuable as valuing the journey up, and since there is more than one mountain or hill to ascend, the views and the journeys are different. Christianity built off of a certain hill with a certain perspective and has advanced that perspective for some time, but many of us in the world can't see or don't care for that perspective anymore. There are indeed many of us Pagans who espouse Christian morals, and there are many more of us who don't, and as our civilization is on the precipice of a mass transformation as per the "remystification" of society, we don't see that the Mountain of Yahweh is taking us anywhere we like at all and speak out openly about it. In my opinion, Christian morals are fundamentally twisted and evil as they are expressly designed to break up bonds of kin in people, and this is where Styx completely misses the ball in answering this Catholic fellow's silly comment about Jung, Guenón, and by extension probably also Evola as being keystones of modern individualism and subsequently nihilism. The Gods of our Ancestors promoted kinship with our fellows, not just our fellow men, but also with Animals and the Land. This is what the practice of farming was all about from the get go -- Kinship. Kinship between the animals and the plants we choose to share our lives with and our Forebears. Christianity says that Necromancy, the sacred practice of Ancestor Worship, is the devil's work. It says that men are fundamentally predisposed to "sin", and then lays out those necessary aspects of masculinity -- virility and a propensity to violence -- as the inclinations of the "Natural Man" who is an "enemy of God"... except when he says so. Christians also teach us that animals and plants are here or our "use", not to live in kinship with us. Look at how we treat the environment, and look at how we treat the animals that literally bore us on their backs into this world, and tell me that this mentality is not sick and twisted. Horses, cows, and donkeys, ladies and a gentlemen! Go research how they live these days, it's positively awful. We have completely forgotten even that we all belong to tribes, not only amongst ourselves but our animals and plants. This concept of the self the way modern individualists understand it is the result of centuries of slowly decoupling people from the Land in pursuit of an abstract paradise. Man is above Nature, and all men should pursue a personal relationship with their God in pursuit of the Abstraction of Paradise that is only possible through him because the World is "fallen". That is what Christians believe, that is how we get to every one person having objective "value" as one of God's children. That's how we get the concept of "human rights", and all of this other completely subjective nonsense that masquerades as objective because the source of all objectivity in Christian belief is their supposedly singular God. Jung, Guenón, and Evola were ultimately very group oriented, Guenón even more so than Evola because he became a Sufi Muslim because he believed this was the last really accessible version of the Truth where he could be initiated as Pageau refers to by men, but there are those men also who are initiated by Deity, as the Gods will talk to them more directly, and Jung and Evola were trying to explain systems of understanding for approaching methods of doing so based on their own research and PRACTICES. This is the complimentary difference between left handed and right handed religion. You have to discount the Existence of the Gods, which to those of us who AREN'T atheists (most of us) is to deny manifest reality because the Gods are anthropomorphized embodiments, i.e., Spirits, of Natural Forces. We human beings have a natural tendency to anthropomorphize things so we can relate to them. It's why we tell stories about talking animals and why Porky "Pig" has hands and eyebrows. It's no different, and no less human, to make sense of Deity in anthropomorphic terms. It makes perfect sense that they would communicate with us through such means given this instinct, even to Christians! Jesus is the "One True God" descended into flesh and blood to tell us his mysteries, but Gods do this all the time and always have. The Hindus have articulated this concept as the "avatar". It's not unique to Christianity, and so it cannot be said to be singular. The singularity of Jesus is in his message of redemption, not in his nature as a God born in flesh and blood, and you have to believe in the Christian concept of sin for that to matter which presupposes a singular God that can only be known through a single of his aspects. I don't believe that, and we don't believe that.
@@The667tony sure thing but by thanking the Lord I’m acknowledging the value I place on this conversation. And people who believe are happy when I thank the Lord for something good they’ve done. It’s not diminishing them, they know they made the video and made it happen. And now they know I value that enough to thank the Lord for it. If they’re upset about it, I’m sure they’ll let me know. Are you upset about it?
Wonderful conversation at the interface of the good faith post modern challenge to Christianity and a relatively open-minded good faith defense of Christianity. Thank you!
There is no "post modernity". There is only truth and falsehood. Religion is falsehood, and it is also the biggest threat to the West, because it is what created communism and what will enable its rise in the future.
@@Siegfried5846 I'd define post modernity as a critique of what modernity missed e.g. an appreciation of interior space (subjectivity), an appreciation of the limitations of materialist science as a path of knowing truth etc. I'd disagree with a statement like 'religion is falsehood' as the question is much more nuanced. There are so many paradigms of knowing. Anyway, wishing you the best.
Styx mentions a study about the Catholic Church that determined that 20% of priests or so were atheists, and then he said it was before Vatican 2 and that it was at at the outset of Ratzinger, by which I assume he means the Papacy of Benedict the XVI which started in 2005, but Vatican 2 ended in 1965. So I think he's mixed up there. I'm not commenting on Giovanni's point or on the study, but there seems to be a chronological mix-up by Styx.
@@EveritteBarbee Well this only shows that you have not read them properly. Stop being gay in thinking you found a "hidden truth". Mithra is mentioned, but is not "central". And if u think that is "Mithraism", the same u find in the roman empire you are confused and absolutely wrong.
I want JP and Styx to have a free flow, no offense, but the added comments broke the flow. I do appriciate making the gathering happen though, so thank you.
Interesting I used to be super into berserk back in the day, and never made that connection oddly. There's definitely parallels between berserk and the story of st. Christopher
"I give the search more importance than the end goal" I don't understand how that makes any sense. personally, that makes it seem incredibly unimportant. if I see something as important, I want the goal. the search is only a means to that end. I see the journey as more important when it comes to vacations, video games, and movies. things I can literally drog half way through and never worry about again. when it comes to service matters, my art, my purpose, my goals, my service, these are all about the goal. the journey is just a means. personally, anything I start loving the journey more than desiring the goal, it is because I am afraid of what reaching the goal would mean
Agreed. After a certain point, some things remain true no matter what. Continuing to challenge Truth (without reason), at best is intellectually spinning your wheels and wasting time, and at worst actively, pridefully trying to deny Truth because it artificially inflates the ego.
It’s really hard to take those three dudes on the left seriously when midway through their point they toss out a meme about furries and shit. It’s like the insecure person that makes everything a joke
Great point out of the gate: in the first centuries of Christianity, it had to contend with paganism. In the end, the 'apology' was born and Greek philosophy reinvigorated.
Im tempted to agree with Jonathan at the end there. A follow-up discussion should be hosted on one of their channels. No disrespect to the other two but this being my first experience of your channel, there was a lot of unnecessary stepping on each others points that I didn’t care for. Let the guests do their thing.
I really like the convos you set up between jonathan and uberboyo and styx. But both times it felt like there are too many people on the call wanting to speak. Are the two of you there to facilitate the convo or are you part of it? (genuine question, since I dont know your format). Comparing the great uberboyo pageau convo on your channel and their supergreat convo between the two of them alone, the flow really was much better in their one on one convo and they got a lot deeper. And I have the feeling this will be true for a possible styx - pageau one on one convo as well. Which seems like a wasted opportunity, especially because you guys do seem knowledgable about this stuff, but it isn't channeled towards bettering the conversation between the two guests everyone came to watch have a conversation. Great convo still and thanks a lot for facillitating it!
i respect everyone in this dialogue but i have to say that pageau is completely wrong when i says "its not about books"(51 minutes in). the abrahamic religions and the modern world are the children of literacy. its actually all about books.
Pageau has trapped himself . ''how can you practice a religion without the secret ?'' . what is the secret to your religion Jonathan ?. and if you tell it to us would it then not be a secret anymore.
Why is there a proliferation lately of these debate channels? I saw Politically Provoked and before that Modern Day Debate. Isn't this the worst time to be trying this on yt?
The issue I have with Stix's description of many mountains and paths is the same I have with any subjective world view, it seems to devour itself. For instance, he criticizes organized religion for its wars and oppressions, he calls people who unquestioningly follow their birth faiths as ignorant. But if there is not one single true path, if there are a myriad ways of reaching the top of the mountain, then who is to say the path of the oppressor is not a valid path? Or the path of the ignorant fool? How can one claim there is no one right way, then turn around and say some ways are wrong? As soon as you declare subjectivity you can not argue that one thing is better or worse than another. You can't have it both ways.
Hes not saying these paths cant lead to enlightenment hes saying that certain paths have done more harm than good. Hes happy for you to follow which ever path you feel like. Out of the two guests Jonathan is more hardline than Styx.
@@oldman_eleven I believe my criticism stills stands. Who is to say a path that cause harm to oneself or others is inferior to one that causes no harm? And if indeed a path that causes harm is inferior to one that does not, then this means the notion that all paths are equal is false. It would mean some paths are objectively superior to others and should be chosen regardless of ones own personal desires. On the other hand, if all these paths do equally lead to enlightenment, then the fact that "certain paths have done more harm than good" would become moot. You can not have it both ways.
@@owlobsidian6965 you can support peoples freedom to choose their own path even if their choice is a destructive one. Our stance is to highlight these things but we are not crusaders. Freedom of choice is Paramount until it leads to religious violence. Then people of all faiths should condemn it.
@@oldman_eleven You contradict yourself: "support peoples freedom to choose their own path even if their choice is a destructive one. " vs "until it leads to religious violence." Can people be destructive or not? Or are you saying you support people being destructive, but if those destructive actions have a religious motivation then they are suddenly wrong? Which destructive motivations are valid, then? Greed, hate, control, etc? Why is religious violence so much different than violence with other motivations?
Jonathan made a terribke argument. These things are living things, but not like paganism. Thats dead. Despite Christianity have taken from pagab paths and is a shelf of its former self.
I also have to say, Jonathan has a great point about Christianity being much more accessible than branches of paganism, and more universal. But Orthodoxy isn't so easily accessible to many. Yeah, it's there, it technically welcomes all, but many people go their life's without being able to really be orthodox. Many are too far from a church, and there's an issue even with churches themselves being too unwelcome for converts, since many are ethnic enclaves, or not even in the same language. And in Styxs defense, I don't think he has any problem with anyone being orthodox, I think he actually would encourage many if it doesn't hurt them.
It's no surprise, Jesus Christ died for all. The book of James touches on the fact God isn't a respector of persons, and neither should we be. Christianity doesn't have a class system. There's just 2 groups, sinners and sinners whom have been forgiven.
Pageau is correct that Christianity destroyed all of the other ancient European pagan initiatory religions...which is not really a great reason to become a Christian tbh
Im loving this. Gotta be my favorite styx debate. Well balance, they dont get mad at each other (so far) and its overall very productive. Much respect to jonathan for providing Styx a worthy adversary.
Going from one religion or spirituality to another forces you to make connections without distinctions in order to have coherence in your personal life. Styxx kept saying "they are all the same" when objectively Krishna is not the same as Jesus Christ, and the Jesus Christ of a Traditional Catholic or an orthodox Christian is not the same as the Jesus Christ of mormons. Traditional and orthodox Christians are used to make distinctions without separation, and links without mixing. But anybody that follows the motto "solve et coagula" does the opposite, they separate and do not make distinctions (solve) and they mix (coagulate) instead of properly and hierarchicaly link and bind things together in their apropriate order.
That is because the Orthodoxy (& subsequently Catholicism) apostatized shortly after Christ's apostles died. Same as Islam, Muslims apostatized shortly after Muhammad (pbuh) passed on···
@@Saint_nobody there is always a remnant (Romans 11:5) and those have been the ones keeping the revealed tradition alive, I am not sure your understanding of "ὀρθοδοξία" (orthodoxy) and "καθολικός" (catholic) are correct, an orthodox catholic can never apostatize if he does then he ceases to be one thus we can't say that the orthodox and catholics are apostatizing. The true tradition is a river that flows from God and that river is catholic and orthodox you can enter the river or get out of it, but the river remains until today, it never stopped. The remnant are not some guys hidden in the wilderness or some secret society that keeps the secret, the remnant are the ones who are inside the Visible Church and profess and practice exactly what has been revealed by God, scripture, the sacraments and the mysteries, and those are not hidden but are openly available to everyone. Read Heinrich Joseph Dominicus Denzinger for the magisterium, read the councils of the Church, the encyclicals, the missal. read the Church Fathers, Everything has been open and revealed since the death of our Lord. anyways I don't understand how what you said has anything to do to my comment.
Well, this helped me understand something I’ve been struggling with ever since my baptism. I didn’t realize till just now how deeply I had internalized “solve et coagula”. Thanks
I really wish that there had been a better representative of paganism, but none of them are famous enough to bring people in like Styx. Would've been great to have someone like Dave Martel but he doesn't have that kind of reach
Having finished this I'm pretty neutral on it. It seems like there were some decent points made by both parties. I still wish it were an actual believing and practicing pagan rather than Styx, but they're harder to track down and not as popular
Like Pageau said, the idea that you can take a book and come up with a religion is nonsense, it's basically a product of Sola Scriptura. Neopaganism in the Anglosphere is just another flavor of being evangelical.
That wouldn't be a product of anything except ppl projecting. Using the Bible as the standard helps prevent making up religions. The nonsense is a product of not having a standard.
I have utmost respect for Pageau and I've never listened to Styxhexenhammer, but I have to say Styx brought up exactly many of my concerns with Christianity, and in this case I didn't think that Pageau gave a solid answer to any of these concerns.
Spending longer time on Earth means more time to figure yourself out/gather resources/etc. I see older people say that despite the joint pains and such they're happier overall because as they age they're less worried about what others think of them and feel more free to be themselves.
Styx has a pretty comfy life. Sells books, talks about the news, lives in a small town in the netherlands, has a hot dutch wife. All that after being poor his entire life in rural Vermont.
Styx has found his niche in Trumpism. His discussions on spirituality and politics are paper thin. It's possible he's dumbing things down for a wider audience, but the fact he is Libertarian says otherwise. In this discussion, I've found his points to be lacking. Yes, the adventure is exciting. But objective reality exists, objective metaphysical truth exists. Should we wander in our own minds while being our worst selves? Or strive towards that imminent truth and being which we should all attain. What he proposes isn't even really a perrenialism, but a self centered occultism with the goal of pursuing our own desire.
ultimately what I think a discussion like this comes down to, many religions share the theme of a divine entity being able to create, just as Man is made in the image of God also being able to create. it ultimately boils down to which one is the primary originating point, or THE supreme creator of all intelligent design (Hardware aka all forms of biology including astrobiology, software aka coding or D.N.A. for all living organisms) one of the main understandings about God in Christianity is that God is Alpha(the beggining of everything) and Omega( ending of everything) certain astrophysicists like Hugh Ross have an interesting take on universe expansion and its correlation to his Christian creationist view of the world being developed in seven phases by an intelligent designer and tying it to his knowledge and expertise of astrophysics. In short, which of the Gods are creations, or the Creator?
Norse Paleo Pagan (not neopagan) here... The Old Testament is an altered version of the Septuagint, which is an altered version of the Hebrew Bible. So, the Old Testament is inherently false. The closest thing in the New testament that is close to Jesus is the writings of Paul (the ones actually written by him) a full generation after Jesus, and anything we hear about Jesus from him, he heard from someone else who said they were there. The gospels were written after that. Luke itself is FULL of historical inaccuracies. Nothing in the Bible is an eye witness account. So the Bible cannot prove the Bible or religion. So any argument of "Jesus said...", or the "OT says...." is not a valid argument. So, using the Bible to justify, is not possible. It's no different than saying the Norse Sagas are a religious tome (They're not BTW).
i dont even think styx realises how badly he and his way of life are being roasted by jonathan. unfortunately thats what happens when you dont have a "home" and think that it's all about showing people up in debates
As far as I can tell stixx believes that spirituality is a natural phenomena exclusively and Jonathon believes there is also the supernatural sourced religion. A place of faith.
@@Ace-pb8iu not necessarily. Earth religions appear 'spirit based. He stays within the scope of the rational 'realist. He believes those demons are a natural phenomena as in that is how the organic grey matter of man works to understand. The focus being on our design only. Man and the reasonableness of how our mind reach for bigger answers. It's a vain mirror he looks into enjoying the higher intelligence of himself often.
His name was Jmmanuel, not Jesus Christ. His biological father was Gabriel, an extraterrestrial, his biological mother was Mary and his stepfather was Joseph. Jmmanuel did not die on the cross because he did a meditation to stay alive. He was nursed back to health by healers. Took them 3 days. They all walked together to India. Problem was that his mother died en route. Jmmanuel made it to India and got married and had several children. You can read about this in the book "The Talmud of Jmmanuel" by 'Billy' Eduard Albert Meier (BEAM).
Then it's a failure of both sides to make their point clearly or not comprehend the points being made. Or both, either way this could have been avoided.
Resembles the rebel faction....of the day in Jerusalem , who will finally revolt. If he is speaking to a crowd...many say , only catch part of it ; " There's that guy...he has a really loud voice...." " Woe is to he ..Woe is to him..." He's yelling this. ( How Jophesus quoted him )
I'm reading this book by Seraphim Rose, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future. I highly recommend it. It talks about prelests and I agree with what the book says, which is that they're deceptive. It goes into UFOs and much more as well.
Yep, it's a great book, I also really enjoyed it. If you are not already familiar with it, I recommend you checkout Seraphim Rose's "Orthodox Survival Course", it's pretty phenomenal. You can find a full reading of it (it consists of several lectures) on Orthodox Reactionary's channel. It's long but really worth the effort.
Pageau is so adept at navigating a conversation amicably and effectively, especially considering he’s speaking to such abstract or difficult-to-pin-down ideas. it’s a big part of his credibility for me
It was only a matter of time until my theological and political buddies ran into each other. Enjoyed the conversation and hopefully it will continue
lel styxx and pageau in the same video is definitely an unexpected crossover
WTF is going on here?
Where's Jordan Peterson?
Where's Joe Rogan?
Where's Tim Pool?
Help, I want to get off of this planet!
Yeah I about crapped when I saw this
Styx has spoken on Jonathan's channel before. Was great.
Edit: just checked it was a month after this stream.
See, this is why I subbed- I LOVE this kind of discussion!!- and they're so very polite and actually work through the issues instead of cussing, and it's such a great video m'man!! THANK YOU!! I had to come back and watch again. !!
Jonathon Pageau,
I continue to watch and listen to you because you are literally embodying and vocalizing aspects of Christ that have been hidden from the public consciousness, helping redeem the Truth of Christ from the distortions and distractions. You spoke what I have "seen" and also spoken: All Truth and All Light of Love IS Christ (Light/Consciousness) and there is a hierarchy to how we participate.
I can't tell you how excited I am that you exist and that you have taken on this public work. I have been planting seeds in the trenches in preparation. It almost killed me, but I was able to make it back.
planting seeds in the trenches? Can you tell me what that means?
@@bobrossantichrisst Blood of the Martyr is the seed of the church.
Tara has been in the trenches of the polytheistic and atheistic/scientism...in there, she has been talking to people about the Truth, confessing that God is Love...with her words, she shared His Word, that is the seed.
She is risking her life when she brings the light into the dark...
Blood of the Martyr is the seed of the church.
aka: Tara be like Johnny Appleseed seeding pagan grounds...except the seeds she is planting carry His Word.
Nah Krsna is better than Christ
@@VSM101only if you're a hindu
Gotta be one of my favorite episodes so far. Really awesome to see how far this channel has come, and watching Lev grow as an excellent host. Some of the older episodes were exhausting free-for-alls but I'm enjoying how things are a lot more deeply focused and specific now.
Christmas came a week early! I truly wasn't expecting this. Though I was a little disappointed at how short it was. We definitely need a part 2 in 2022!
I concur! Took the words out of my mouth :)
Hope for part 2 as well...
Been struggling with seeing how all things come together, but the more I explore religious thought & see, the more it seems that the right place for wisdom to be gathered around is through Christ.
Though other religions seem to contain wisdom I haven't found in Christianity yet, Christianity seem to have the structure that brings the best in us together through the whole hierarchy
The spirituality of my ancestors was always with me. I’m just starting to realize that. Polytheism/Animism is decentralized freedom and Christianity is apart that too.
Spirituality is a far bigger and grander journey than one centralized source.
There is no such thing as myth, oral tradition is a reliable source of truth, and it’s beautiful. May all the Gods bless us with their wisdom.
Praise the god's!!
Polytheism is self refuting
I love this, it seemed more like a discussion of thoughts and ideas than a debate.
Probably due to the way it was moderated.
It’s also what everyone wants at this point, so even the debate aspects are seen through a “discussion” lens, but yes the moderators were excellent.
@@Vgallo are you LARPing as the official account of Vincent Gallons the film maker ?
@@melchior2678 I would say paying homage and spreading the good news - not larping as an official anything.
@@Vgallo interesting. I've seen his film Buffalo 66 and I really enjoyed it.
Did you check with him to see if he's cool with you using his name and image as your own?
Johnathan has such an enchanting and forceful and almost hypnotizing way of speaking... it is really hard to debate him or even follow up on a point of his. I feel like he would "beat" just about anyone. I do really feel like I'm going to another world when he gets going.
It's cause he's French
I felt the opposite, I felt that Styx had the perfect response and spoke almost exactly what I thought as an agnostic
@@minpros3049 styx depth of knowledge was far greater i found.
@@aituflame8222 not in depth of spiritual integration
@@EamonBurkeIt's cause he's Orthodox.
Pageaus point about Mithraism is the checkmate against Styxx’s buffet-style spirituality. Debate ended right there.
Parrenalism always falls apart.
agreed.
@@CourtesyPhone buffet style isn’t perennialism. Styxx is not a perennialist no serious perenialist would suggest changing spiritual paths and mixing and matching
U don't understand what is being said on either end
Strange. I had no idea that this was happening and I haven’t followed styx in forever, but yesterday I felt drawn to say a prayer for him. I said a quick prayer and forgot about it. Woke up to this stream this morning.
☦️
Thanks for praying for people you don't know personally. You're rad.
You're just wasting your time, but it comes from nice intentions I guess
@@xiuhcoatl4830 well, I suppose an exercise in good will isn’t a waste of time.
@@Charles3x7 it's a waste of time because that request is futile
@@xiuhcoatl4830 good energy doesn’t go to waste in my opinion. Besides, neither of us have full certainty about the future. I don’t consider it a waste either way. Would you consider it a waste of time to look upon someone and desire a good for them that may never come to pass? Prayer, it seems, is just a higher form of that from my understanding and I don’t think it’s a waste.
Styx really fell off in insisting that modern Norse pagans are the same thing as the ancient Norse pagans.
The only real paganism that exists today are things like unadulterated Hinduism in India, or other groups that have remained unbroken to this day.
If you do not have the ritual heart to something you do not have it.
Environmentalism with larping is not a real religion.
Also Styx really showed Jonathan's point and why I left the occult world years ago.
You simply will not get to the top of any mountain you will walk around the bases lost, and all mountains are not equal.
Truth is not a concept it is a person, The God-Man, Jesus Christ.
Also Orthodox Christianity is early Christianity.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 in India the various cultus's still exist, in america it's definitely adulterated. Well I know at least in the early 1900s there was at least still the cults in the ancient sense like there were temples and cults to individual gods that were the local patron.
He's really not A God man...I made a recent video the failure of one subject christology
@@TheMorning_Son I highly doubt it is any good, unless you covered the very clear christology of the new testament, all of the epistles, that of St Athanasius, St Cyril, St Maximus so on and so on your video is garbage
@@TheMorning_Son universalists are heretics 😁
@@alypius9409 you have to prove it...
Hedonistically speaking, I regret the years I wasted on occultism as spirituality and hedonism as highest ideal -
self-sacrifice and connection to the divine feels so much better.
Occultism is satanism, they are the same exact thing. Either you are with Christ or against him. Luke 11, 23 "“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
@@veilofreality yeah, that is what I was implying. But it surely is not obvious to most "spiritual seekers" who think they are doing something good! It took me years and dozens of hours of JBP to prepare for this realization.
@@johannakunze3300 I'm happy for you that by the Grace of God, you did come to this realization. The real journey now commences! We're all just pilgrims on the road to our Lord. God Bless.
@@veilofreality 🙏
it's crazy how that works. we find contentment when we pursue our purpose, and our purpose is not to pursue hedonism
Jonathan and Styx something I never even thought I wanted until I saw this on my feed.
Amazing discussion. Thanks guys! :-)
Catholicism does have a mystic tradition. Sadly, that's perhaps not made as evident as it should be by the Church.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 it's the same tradition. The problem is mainly during and pair Aquinas western Europeans more and more infiltrated the theology of the westvand turned it into what it is today; lifeless and loveless.
It's not Catholic vs Orhtodox. We shouldn't be separate. Jut accept the perils of Western Euuropeanism as displayed here by this "pagan", and we can begin to heal the schism. Then heal the one with the orient. Stop asking for silly things like to bend the knee to your pope. You can have the first among equals chair. It belongs to Rome, but there nothing Rome about Rome anymore.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 exactly. So tell your heretical Pope to repent the blasphemy of the Papal Supremacy, and rejoin the Council as the Patriarch of Rome and first among equals.
My family was under the jurisdiction of Rome and in 1054 the entire congregation saw the great evil and denounced it. Then joined Constantinople.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 So the principal of unity among the Churches is an Italian Prince and not the Holy Spirit? How is your Apostate Prince a worshipper of the goddess Pachamama going to bring about a godly the unity of the Churches? Why should Orthodox Christians seek to be in Communion with Rome?
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 Got it, because I watch Harry Potter your Pope worships the goddess Pachamama. Interesting argument you have there.
I myself prefer the Orthodox Church that has her center of Unity in Jesus Christ, to your Church that has her center of Unity in an Italian Prince. The worship of the Creator vs. the worship of the creation.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 Good argument, I will worship Pope Francis! I convert to your Prince! I renounce Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and will only worship Pope Francis, the only true God.
Oh, but Francis worships the goddess Pachamama so I will worship her alongside Pope Francis.
Now, I am just like you intellectual.
Styxx with the oh so original “there are many paths and the point of spirituality is to just keep seeking novelty at every turn.” Literally the default belief of anyone born after 1960. Pageau’s is the way.
Tell tale sign the pagan/atheist knows nothing of the religion they argue against.
Yes I did the whole spiritual but religious crap, I am guilty, luckily I left that road, I am sure more will too
Exactly, it's the world after 1968, after LSD, and (unfortunately) after Joseph Campbell. It's also "à-la-carte." It's superposable with consumer choice-- spirituality is just another avenue of consumer identity. And if anything that's what neo-paganism is, an aesthetic with no actual essence. It's a costume
@@georgew.hayduke4481 great way to put it
U don't even understand Styx's positions.....let alone ur own Christian positions. U people don't read or research
"What happened to 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'?" Um...same thing that happened to every death penalty in the OT. Christ nullified it in John 8 by laying down that only someone sinless could carry out the sentence, which would exclude everyone but himself (and he opted not to do it). At that point excommunication became the highest penalty the church could deal out. That doesn't preclude the *state* from having power of execution, though -- Romans 13's mention of the (executioner's) "sword" affirms this. And that's largely how executions worked in post-Constantine early Christian societies: Through a combination of church and state power.
The issue with discussing christian mysticism is that it gives the excuse to discount this verifiable historical truths and rationality of the truth.
The hardest part about being Christian is having the intellectual torgue to switch between defending the mystical aspect, the historical aspect, and even the rational aspect virtually simultaneously, and I confess I rarely have the grace to maintain composure when detractors quickly segway to attack from a different direction quickly after recieving cogent explanations.
Thank God for people like Pageau
Pageau is the reason I no longer call myself an atheist
Well, one of the reasons I am no longer a Christian is that I found the "rational" arguments in defense of it to be an utter crock. Complete frauds like Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, Ken Ham and Kent Hovind are cited as "absolute proof" of the truth of the Christian religion. They are no such thing.
The only Christian-atheist debate I ever needed was the one between Dave Farina and Kent Hovind. It can be found on TH-cam.
Don't get me wrong I'm actually a big fan of Pageau. He has a very good handle on the things that make mankind work. Unfortunately, demonstrable objective fact is not one of those things.
@Andrew Stallard solid argument bro.
@@andrewstallard6927 Kent Hovind and Ken Ham are seen as absolute clowns by pretty much all Christians. They're creationist fundamentalists. Don't confuse material arguments with rational ones. It's not the same, and Christianity doesn't often make material claims. Ken and Kent do, and they're idiots. Heck, they both have a criminal record if I remember correctly.
LOVE both of these guys. I regularly listen to them both. Pulling for Jonathan in this one but I'm excited for the diacussion
Western paganism is so weird. I don't understand how Styx can claim himself as a pagan where he is rather distancing himself from any religion, being barely interested but not participant of them in the long run. I'll give you example why it's weird. I am slavic rodnover, that's kind of paganism as well. I consider myself as rodnover since 2012, i am 28 years old right now. I feel like I still don't have good enough bond with tradition of my ancestors. I have some kind of hunger for studying it but also for PRACTICE! How can you practice and be serious about it when you don't identify yourself with religion that you cultivate? It's a nonsense. It's a game of pretending. If you start a family and raise kids in it they'll call it bluff or play. Kids can see where you are pretending and they say it straight forward. I'll say it the same way: don't make this guy a pagan authority, when he isn't pagan at all, he is an agnostic at best.
I am a Christian and I basically agree with you that you have to practice a religious tradition to fully understand it. You have to become a servant of the god and or gods and goddesses of your tradition to get the full experience. Every religion has goals and you need to agree with and identity with these goals, you yourself need to become part of the story of your chosen Faith. Evey god or goddess has a World View that various gods impose on their People. I have been a serious Christian since I was 12 years old, and I am advancing in the Faith continually as I get older, I now understand many aspects of my religion that I didn't understand when I was younger. It is not a matter of simply reading books, but of living the Faith, entering into the Mystery of your chosen Faith through practicing that Faith.
I don't simply read Scripture as a historical book, or as interesting writing form long ago, but as part of a story that I also am called to play my part in. So, I am not on the outside looking in, but an actual player in the drama of my God, His People and the interactions of God with His People and the Peoples of other gods, and the interactions of Gods People with God and the Community of Gods People and the various people groups who belong to other gods.
I take my Religion Seriously, because we all eventually become what we worship, so in chosing a god, you are also chosing the type of person you want to become. A Religion is a tool or technology to achieve your desired outcome.
I've tried to get through as much of this video as I can. My views are confirmed-- European Paganism in the contemporary world is just Atheism in a costume. I understood that before I lost my Atheism and it's even more evident after losing it.
Yeah I think you are on to something with this.
It's even worse than that
Yeah it all comes off as fake and insincere.
That is a reductionist approach paganism is not just atheism, there are many things to it like the summoning of spirits
@LegoGuy87 as long as the belief in godhood exists in modern times new belief systems that work with ancient forms still have a value.
Pageau's clarity of mind and ability for pattern recognition is mind-blowing to say the least. He must be one of the most intelligent people in the world.
Would it be feasible for Gio to hook up Jonathan with Tyler Hamilton? Would love to hear the two of them talk on one of their channels.
I look forward to a second discussion between Jonathan and Tarl. I really enjoyed this.
I forgot how much I love watching Styx debates christians
As Pageau says, self-sacrifice is the principle of Christianity, but self-sacrifice is the antithesis of occultism, which is why Styx is so averse to Christianity.
Been waiting for years to see Styx and Pageau to converse. This is a dream come true.
Great conversation. I grew up LDS (Mormon) but am largely not religious. I always enjoy listening to people explain their various faiths and beliefs though.
crazy im (LDS) still kinda lds tho i don't see how people lose there religion
@@ZAYA2227 I guess I never "found" it to begin with, but I love Mormonism and their communities. I may become very religious yet with the way the world is heading.
Watch-out Styx,
Jonathon is for real.
Real nonsence
Felt like these guys should of let Styx and Jonathan speak with each other more. It felt like Styx was against 3 people at a time occasionally.
Lev is trying to be impartial.. his own positions ate far closer to Styx than to Jonathon..
Who would have thought that a Canadian psychology professor and an icon carver would get me into religion again?
“I never talk about the afterlife”
That seems strange because it’s mentioned often in the scriptures
Great discussion between two men eminently capable of elucidating and defending their positions and challenging each other respectfully, fraternally and in good faith. Well hosted and moderated too. Good job guys.
Christian argument in this debate as far as i can tell is something like: We destroyed your worshiping altars, your idols and outlawed your writings and verbal stories and genocided those that crossed us, so you cant know your worshiping your gods right therefore your religion is false. Difficult to pin down ideas because Abraham religions destroyed almost everything.
Jonathan: Making profound point.
Styx's cat: "I can't stop licking my butt."
what profound point lol
Pageau is so wrong when he talks about how religion, if we went back to there being many different cults there'd be more fighting etc, in antiquity when polytheism was common there was LESS religious conflict, not more. Monotheism, the arrogance of Christian belief, that rejected all other traditions as falsehoods is what started the religious conflicts, before then cultures viewed other gods with similar characteristics as different interpretations of the same forces in the world.
Yea monotheism in general started the whole absolute intolerance towards other gods. Before that cultures just eother integrated them into the pantheon, interpreted a certain god as being like one of their own, or simply denied it.
Absolutely need a part 2. That was way too short
Whooooa breaking into the top 10 anime showdowns of all time!
Before I start, bare with me, I discuss Pageaus ideas somewhat relentlessly, but I’m sure the man is a very nice kind human being that I wouldn’t like to harm: that being said, let me take off.
Reading the comments; is it really that hard to see through Pageau’s carefully woven intelligent sophistry? Almost everything he says can be broken down by healthy hard nosed thinking. He’s concerned about breaking apart and building up, he hates deconstructing, he loves constructing, that’s understandable and shows a good heart, but he’s not so concerned about what is true. I rather break things down than to construct an architecture of semantics and smart rhetoric, like I think he is doing. His ecosystem of ideas is not much more than an the ecosystem of semantics, it’s a world of symbols and simulacra, without touching the reality we inhabit. What does it all point to? Because thats what meaning is, the bridge between a representation and that which is represented… Not to things in themselves as far as I can see. It’s symbols pointing to each other, that point to each other. Nothing more.
Inventing new religions a problem? What about Christianity 2000 years ago? Christianity succeeded because there are so many Christians, theosophy not because there aren’t much theosophists? What does it matter, it doesn’t make either of them true. The best ideas and practices of the pagan religions are conserved on Christianity? Nonsense. If Plotinus would see his Enneads in a church and how they are applied by theologians he wouldn’t recognize his worldview even remotely. He would see it as a violent perversion of his clear transparant thinking. He wouldn’t find recognition at all. Yes Christianity tried to absorb things, but that only shows their lack of own ideas. They used pagan ideas and watered them perversely down, and diluted them with their own ideas. So what really is absorbed or preserved from the best of pagan religions? Nothing, but weird transformations. It honestly got rid of and killed lots of pagan insights. Weird pagan ideas? Has Jonathan Pageau ever looked at Christianity from an outsiders perspective? Also quite weird. Weird things can be true though. But Pageau thinks he can dismiss something if something is weird to his own standards and tastes. And not because it’s weird after being scrutinized. Christ so amazing? A lot of what he supposedly said was esoteric, meaning, only for initiates, so most of what he really thought we don’t even know. He didn’t always mean to be understood by the masses. His choice, I have no problem, but don’t think that you know what the man actually taught? His initiates where illiterate disciples (illiterate doesn’t mean unwise or unintelligent, don’t get me wrong) but the man didn’t write anything, and his disciples couldn’t write. What is written about him isn’t without an agenda that you have to keep in mind while letting yourself be informed by the gospels, and it’s hard to distinguish fact from fiction, authentic words from attributed ones. On top of that are the variety of theological ideas distracted from the Hebrew Bible mixed with Hellenistic platonic ideas, and probably yet other influences, projected onto the man Jesus, and there you have Pageaus Jesus. A real thing? No, a construct of ideas, with somewhere something of the man as he actually was. His Jesus, almost all conceptions of Jesus. are more like an homeopathic water. I bet Jesus wouldn’t even remotely recognize his views in what is come to be called Christianity, he wouldn’t recognize any denomination as his own views. He wouldn’t even recognize the apostle Paul as being of the same religion I would claim. Did Jesus have such deep insights in the nature of reality or in human nature? I’m not so sure, honestly, I don’t think so. I could point out many thinkers that are of much higher level that reach much deeper than Jesus. Parmenides, the veda’s, Plotinus, Spinoza, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, to but name a few. Were his ethics so great? Even that I don’t think so. I think Marcus Aurelius already beats Jesus when it comes to ethics. Utilitarian insights, yeah I guess for many millions of people who make their own projections of him by which they live. But the point is, it hasn’t much to do with truths of matters and ideas about reality.
Pageau doesn’t play the intellectual game honestly (although he’s probably not aware of it, so he’s forgiven for that) he hops from one category to another for answers and explanations, and therefor his architecture doesn’t seem to collaps.. until you see that the glue, the nails, the cement, solder and tape that holds his building together are made of your own suspending of judgement, imagination, will (for meaning), idolatry for Jesus or Pageau, aesthetic taste, lack of being precise etc. Not of rigorous hard nosed thinking (philosophy), introspection (spirituality) and experimenting with stuff (science). I could go on pointing out problems in Pageaus thinking, but I’m writing a TH-cam comment, not an academic paper.
Is Pageau meaningful? Yes. He points to things that point to other things, that points to things, until the circle is complete, without it ever having touched a thing in itself. It’s meaningful but doesn’t end in truth. Is Pageau useful for lots of people? Yeah, probably, fine for all these people. But also that hasn’t anything to do with truth.
I wish him the very best though. I have nothing against him as a human living sentient being, he’s as far as I can see a civil and nice man, with the best intentions, nothing but prosperous beautiful things and experiences for him, but I really have not much respect, or regard for his ideas, theology and philosophy, neither for the way in which he got there.
So, the first thing I picked up in this discussion that Styxhexenhammer666 missed was not in finishing the analogy of the different paths of spirituality being different mountains. John Michael Greer draws the analogy of the Truth being a valley, and the path up one of the surrounding mountains or hills leads to a specific view of the Truth from the height and angle of the elevation in question. We might think of ourselves then as wandering out of the Valley of Truth, the animal world of raw instinct that we know as the subconscious mind in modernity, to only to gaze back at it from on high. The Pagan worldview then, is one that competition is the parent of cooperation, and so valuing the view from where you are is every bit as valuable as valuing the journey up, and since there is more than one mountain or hill to ascend, the views and the journeys are different. Christianity built off of a certain hill with a certain perspective and has advanced that perspective for some time, but many of us in the world can't see or don't care for that perspective anymore.
There are indeed many of us Pagans who espouse Christian morals, and there are many more of us who don't, and as our civilization is on the precipice of a mass transformation as per the "remystification" of society, we don't see that the Mountain of Yahweh is taking us anywhere we like at all and speak out openly about it. In my opinion, Christian morals are fundamentally twisted and evil as they are expressly designed to break up bonds of kin in people, and this is where Styx completely misses the ball in answering this Catholic fellow's silly comment about Jung, Guenón, and by extension probably also Evola as being keystones of modern individualism and subsequently nihilism. The Gods of our Ancestors promoted kinship with our fellows, not just our fellow men, but also with Animals and the Land. This is what the practice of farming was all about from the get go -- Kinship. Kinship between the animals and the plants we choose to share our lives with and our Forebears. Christianity says that Necromancy, the sacred practice of Ancestor Worship, is the devil's work. It says that men are fundamentally predisposed to "sin", and then lays out those necessary aspects of masculinity -- virility and a propensity to violence -- as the inclinations of the "Natural Man" who is an "enemy of God"... except when he says so. Christians also teach us that animals and plants are here or our "use", not to live in kinship with us.
Look at how we treat the environment, and look at how we treat the animals that literally bore us on their backs into this world, and tell me that this mentality is not sick and twisted. Horses, cows, and donkeys, ladies and a gentlemen! Go research how they live these days, it's positively awful. We have completely forgotten even that we all belong to tribes, not only amongst ourselves but our animals and plants. This concept of the self the way modern individualists understand it is the result of centuries of slowly decoupling people from the Land in pursuit of an abstract paradise. Man is above Nature, and all men should pursue a personal relationship with their God in pursuit of the Abstraction of Paradise that is only possible through him because the World is "fallen". That is what Christians believe, that is how we get to every one person having objective "value" as one of God's children. That's how we get the concept of "human rights", and all of this other completely subjective nonsense that masquerades as objective because the source of all objectivity in Christian belief is their supposedly singular God. Jung, Guenón, and Evola were ultimately very group oriented, Guenón even more so than Evola because he became a Sufi Muslim because he believed this was the last really accessible version of the Truth where he could be initiated as Pageau refers to by men, but there are those men also who are initiated by Deity, as the Gods will talk to them more directly, and Jung and Evola were trying to explain systems of understanding for approaching methods of doing so based on their own research and PRACTICES.
This is the complimentary difference between left handed and right handed religion. You have to discount the Existence of the Gods, which to those of us who AREN'T atheists (most of us) is to deny manifest reality because the Gods are anthropomorphized embodiments, i.e., Spirits, of Natural Forces. We human beings have a natural tendency to anthropomorphize things so we can relate to them. It's why we tell stories about talking animals and why Porky "Pig" has hands and eyebrows. It's no different, and no less human, to make sense of Deity in anthropomorphic terms. It makes perfect sense that they would communicate with us through such means given this instinct, even to Christians! Jesus is the "One True God" descended into flesh and blood to tell us his mysteries, but Gods do this all the time and always have. The Hindus have articulated this concept as the "avatar". It's not unique to Christianity, and so it cannot be said to be singular.
The singularity of Jesus is in his message of redemption, not in his nature as a God born in flesh and blood, and you have to believe in the Christian concept of sin for that to matter which presupposes a singular God that can only be known through a single of his aspects. I don't believe that, and we don't believe that.
Styxx gon learn today! Pageau is on another level!
All of Pageau's arguments apply equally to his Christianity....
Ur not even paying attention
Really looking forward to the second part of this discussion.
Great show guys! First time viewer, followed the horseman; subbed. Peace & Love Brothers!
I’ve been wanting this ☦️🙏🏻 Jonathan and Styx, thank the Lord!
Why a re you thanking a ghost? Didn't these guys make this happen? idiot!
@@The667tony sure thing but by thanking the Lord I’m acknowledging the value I place on this conversation. And people who believe are happy when I thank the Lord for something good they’ve done. It’s not diminishing them, they know they made the video and made it happen. And now they know I value that enough to thank the Lord for it. If they’re upset about it, I’m sure they’ll let me know. Are you upset about it?
@@MrRickkramer as I've said before..... religious belief is the absolute ultimate mental illness. I'm no longer troubled by religious retardation.
@@The667tony you didn’t say that before and your insults only display hatred. Maybe you should reconsider because you seem to be an angry person.
cringe
Wonderful conversation at the interface of the good faith post modern challenge to Christianity and a relatively open-minded good faith defense of Christianity. Thank you!
There is no "post modernity". There is only truth and falsehood. Religion is falsehood, and it is also the biggest threat to the West, because it is what created communism and what will enable its rise in the future.
@@Siegfried5846 I'd define post modernity as a critique of what modernity missed e.g. an appreciation of interior space (subjectivity), an appreciation of the limitations of materialist science as a path of knowing truth etc. I'd disagree with a statement like 'religion is falsehood' as the question is much more nuanced. There are so many paradigms of knowing. Anyway, wishing you the best.
this century is a Bataillean century..
Styx mentions a study about the Catholic Church that determined that 20% of priests or so were atheists, and then he said it was before Vatican 2 and that it was at at the outset of Ratzinger, by which I assume he means the Papacy of Benedict the XVI which started in 2005, but Vatican 2 ended in 1965. So I think he's mixed up there.
I'm not commenting on Giovanni's point or on the study, but there seems to be a chronological mix-up by Styx.
Ratzinger was active back to V2 days.
Communist agents infiltrated the CChurch.
@@mmccrownus2406 I know he was active before Vatican 2. I didn't think that's what Styx meant by the "outset of Ratzinger", but maybe he did.
Guys, Mithraism is alive and well in India, Mitra is a central deity of the Rig Veda, the oldest living religious text known.
What are you on about? FALSE.
@@MrJafar93 the books are there, waiting for you to read them.
@@EveritteBarbee Well this only shows that you have not read them properly. Stop being gay in thinking you found a "hidden truth". Mithra is mentioned, but is not "central". And if u think that is "Mithraism", the same u find in the roman empire you are confused and absolutely wrong.
I want JP and Styx to have a free flow, no offense, but the added comments broke the flow. I do appriciate making the gathering happen though, so thank you.
Excellent conversation had by all here. Thanks, guys!
Guts from Berserk was sorta dog-headed, wasn’t he?
Interesting I used to be super into berserk back in the day, and never made that connection oddly. There's definitely parallels between berserk and the story of st. Christopher
The armor he gets in the manga even has a dog/wolf looking helmet.
Interesting point
"I give the search more importance than the end goal"
I don't understand how that makes any sense. personally, that makes it seem incredibly unimportant.
if I see something as important, I want the goal. the search is only a means to that end.
I see the journey as more important when it comes to vacations, video games, and movies. things I can literally drog half way through and never worry about again. when it comes to service matters, my art, my purpose, my goals, my service, these are all about the goal. the journey is just a means.
personally, anything I start loving the journey more than desiring the goal, it is because I am afraid of what reaching the goal would mean
Agreed. After a certain point, some things remain true no matter what. Continuing to challenge Truth (without reason), at best is intellectually spinning your wheels and wasting time, and at worst actively, pridefully trying to deny Truth because it artificially inflates the ego.
It’s really hard to take those three dudes on the left seriously when midway through their point they toss out a meme about furries and shit. It’s like the insecure person that makes everything a joke
Great point out of the gate: in the first centuries of Christianity, it had to contend with paganism. In the end, the 'apology' was born and Greek philosophy reinvigorated.
Im tempted to agree with Jonathan at the end there. A follow-up discussion should be hosted on one of their channels. No disrespect to the other two but this being my first experience of your channel, there was a lot of unnecessary stepping on each others points that I didn’t care for. Let the guests do their thing.
I really like the convos you set up between jonathan and uberboyo and styx. But both times it felt like there are too many people on the call wanting to speak. Are the two of you there to facilitate the convo or are you part of it? (genuine question, since I dont know your format).
Comparing the great uberboyo pageau convo on your channel and their supergreat convo between the two of them alone, the flow really was much better in their one on one convo and they got a lot deeper. And I have the feeling this will be true for a possible styx - pageau one on one convo as well.
Which seems like a wasted opportunity, especially because you guys do seem knowledgable about this stuff, but it isn't channeled towards bettering the conversation between the two guests everyone came to watch have a conversation.
Great convo still and thanks a lot for facillitating it!
i respect everyone in this dialogue but i have to say that pageau is completely wrong when i says "its not about books"(51 minutes in). the abrahamic religions and the modern world are the children of literacy. its actually all about books.
@The Hesychast i dont mean to disparage your faith but this is clearly not the case.
@@infowarlock812 if he metioned that Christianity promoted literacy that would be a different story.
Pageau has trapped himself . ''how can you practice a religion without the secret ?'' . what is the secret to your religion Jonathan ?. and if you tell it to us would it then not be a secret anymore.
The secret is the private key and the initiation is the public key.
Why is there a proliferation lately of these debate channels? I saw Politically Provoked and before that Modern Day Debate. Isn't this the worst time to be trying this on yt?
Good question.
This was just an outstanding discussion. I will look forward to part II!
The issue I have with Stix's description of many mountains and paths is the same I have with any subjective world view, it seems to devour itself. For instance, he criticizes organized religion for its wars and oppressions, he calls people who unquestioningly follow their birth faiths as ignorant. But if there is not one single true path, if there are a myriad ways of reaching the top of the mountain, then who is to say the path of the oppressor is not a valid path? Or the path of the ignorant fool? How can one claim there is no one right way, then turn around and say some ways are wrong?
As soon as you declare subjectivity you can not argue that one thing is better or worse than another. You can't have it both ways.
Exactly. All conclusions are negated by your presuppositions.
Hes not saying these paths cant lead to enlightenment hes saying that certain paths have done more harm than good. Hes happy for you to follow which ever path you feel like. Out of the two guests Jonathan is more hardline than Styx.
@@oldman_eleven I believe my criticism stills stands. Who is to say a path that cause harm to oneself or others is inferior to one that causes no harm? And if indeed a path that causes harm is inferior to one that does not, then this means the notion that all paths are equal is false. It would mean some paths are objectively superior to others and should be chosen regardless of ones own personal desires.
On the other hand, if all these paths do equally lead to enlightenment, then the fact that "certain paths have done more harm than good" would become moot.
You can not have it both ways.
@@owlobsidian6965 you can support peoples freedom to choose their own path even if their choice is a destructive one. Our stance is to highlight these things but we are not crusaders. Freedom of choice is Paramount until it leads to religious violence. Then people of all faiths should condemn it.
@@oldman_eleven You contradict yourself: "support peoples freedom to choose their own path even if their choice is a destructive one. " vs "until it leads to religious violence."
Can people be destructive or not?
Or are you saying you support people being destructive, but if those destructive actions have a religious motivation then they are suddenly wrong?
Which destructive motivations are valid, then? Greed, hate, control, etc? Why is religious violence so much different than violence with other motivations?
Styx and Pagaeu together is absolutely wild. Two parts of youtube that I never thought would intersect.
At about 51:02 you can see Styx starting to think "oh shit, have I been just totally missing the point of all this stuff?"
Jonathan made a terribke argument. These things are living things, but not like paganism. Thats dead. Despite Christianity have taken from pagab paths and is a shelf of its former self.
Found this through Paul VanderKlay... subscribed for moar!
I also have to say, Jonathan has a great point about Christianity being much more accessible than branches of paganism, and more universal. But Orthodoxy isn't so easily accessible to many. Yeah, it's there, it technically welcomes all, but many people go their life's without being able to really be orthodox. Many are too far from a church, and there's an issue even with churches themselves being too unwelcome for converts, since many are ethnic enclaves, or not even in the same language.
And in Styxs defense, I don't think he has any problem with anyone being orthodox, I think he actually would encourage many if it doesn't hurt them.
It's no surprise, Jesus Christ died for all. The book of James touches on the fact God isn't a respector of persons, and neither should we be. Christianity doesn't have a class system. There's just 2 groups, sinners and sinners whom have been forgiven.
I was just thinking a few days ago I'd love to see them debate and here we are. Christmas came early, can't wait to listen 🙂
Pageau is correct that Christianity destroyed all of the other ancient European pagan initiatory religions...which is not really a great reason to become a Christian tbh
We are proud of that
@@stls800 It's a loss of history and that is never a good thing.
Im loving this. Gotta be my favorite styx debate.
Well balance, they dont get mad at each other (so far) and its overall very productive.
Much respect to jonathan for providing Styx a worthy adversary.
Styx needs to volunteer as tribute and test out his reincarnation theory with the scientific method.
This was beyond enjoyable - more of this!
So this is where i first saw Pageau! Hes in the big leagues now with Dr Peterson
I feel like I can tell what Jonathan is thinking when he's listening to Styx talk. Haha.
Styx made way better points it wasn’t even close.
Going from one religion or spirituality to another forces you to make connections without distinctions in order to have coherence in your personal life. Styxx kept saying "they are all the same" when objectively Krishna is not the same as Jesus Christ, and the Jesus Christ of a Traditional Catholic or an orthodox Christian is not the same as the Jesus Christ of mormons. Traditional and orthodox Christians are used to make distinctions without separation, and links without mixing. But anybody that follows the motto "solve et coagula" does the opposite, they separate and do not make distinctions (solve) and they mix (coagulate) instead of properly and hierarchicaly link and bind things together in their apropriate order.
That is because the Orthodoxy (& subsequently Catholicism) apostatized shortly after Christ's apostles died. Same as Islam, Muslims apostatized shortly after Muhammad (pbuh) passed on···
@@Saint_nobody there is always a remnant (Romans 11:5) and those have been the ones keeping the revealed tradition alive, I am not sure your understanding of "ὀρθοδοξία" (orthodoxy) and "καθολικός" (catholic) are correct, an orthodox catholic can never apostatize if he does then he ceases to be one thus we can't say that the orthodox and catholics are apostatizing. The true tradition is a river that flows from God and that river is catholic and orthodox you can enter the river or get out of it, but the river remains until today, it never stopped. The remnant are not some guys hidden in the wilderness or some secret society that keeps the secret, the remnant are the ones who are inside the Visible Church and profess and practice exactly what has been revealed by God, scripture, the sacraments and the mysteries, and those are not hidden but are openly available to everyone. Read Heinrich Joseph Dominicus Denzinger for the magisterium, read the councils of the Church, the encyclicals, the missal. read the Church Fathers, Everything has been open and revealed since the death of our Lord. anyways I don't understand how what you said has anything to do to my comment.
Well, this helped me understand something I’ve been struggling with ever since my baptism. I didn’t realize till just now how deeply I had internalized “solve et coagula”. Thanks
I really wish that there had been a better representative of paganism, but none of them are famous enough to bring people in like Styx. Would've been great to have someone like Dave Martel but he doesn't have that kind of reach
Having finished this I'm pretty neutral on it. It seems like there were some decent points made by both parties. I still wish it were an actual believing and practicing pagan rather than Styx, but they're harder to track down and not as popular
Someone like Paul Waggener would have been a good choice but yeah, not as famous as Styx.
I felt the same but for the other side. Mike Winger, James Wallace, Frank Turek, I think would have done a better job making direct points.
It wouldnt matter because the Christians are ignorant of paganism and pagan peoples
Styx and Pageau was a combination I never knew I wanted! :D
Like Pageau said, the idea that you can take a book and come up with a religion is nonsense, it's basically a product of Sola Scriptura. Neopaganism in the Anglosphere is just another flavor of being evangelical.
That wouldn't be a product of anything except ppl projecting. Using the Bible as the standard helps prevent making up religions. The nonsense is a product of not having a standard.
I have utmost respect for Pageau and I've never listened to Styxhexenhammer, but I have to say Styx brought up exactly many of my concerns with Christianity, and in this case I didn't think that Pageau gave a solid answer to any of these concerns.
what is meant by hybrid, or age of the hybrids? what are these monsters or mythical beings he talks about?
If you could only pick one of the four of these guys, which one seems the most fulfilled and happy?
Jonathan
Spending longer time on Earth means more time to figure yourself out/gather resources/etc. I see older people say that despite the joint pains and such they're happier overall because as they age they're less worried about what others think of them and feel more free to be themselves.
@@humanrays ok... and I agree, but you avoided the question you responded to.
Styx has a pretty comfy life. Sells books, talks about the news, lives in a small town in the netherlands, has a hot dutch wife. All that after being poor his entire life in rural Vermont.
What a amazing conversation good stuff
Styx has found his niche in Trumpism. His discussions on spirituality and politics are paper thin. It's possible he's dumbing things down for a wider audience, but the fact he is Libertarian says otherwise.
In this discussion, I've found his points to be lacking. Yes, the adventure is exciting. But objective reality exists, objective metaphysical truth exists. Should we wander in our own minds while being our worst selves? Or strive towards that imminent truth and being which we should all attain. What he proposes isn't even really a perrenialism, but a self centered occultism with the goal of pursuing our own desire.
ultimately what I think a discussion like this comes down to, many religions share the theme of a divine entity being able to create, just as Man is made in the image of God also being able to create. it ultimately boils down to which one is the primary originating point, or THE supreme creator of all intelligent design (Hardware aka all forms of biology including astrobiology, software aka coding or D.N.A. for all living organisms) one of the main understandings about God in Christianity is that God is Alpha(the beggining of everything) and Omega( ending of everything) certain astrophysicists like Hugh Ross have an interesting take on universe expansion and its correlation to his Christian creationist view of the world being developed in seven phases by an intelligent designer and tying it to his knowledge and expertise of astrophysics.
In short, which of the Gods are creations, or the Creator?
good point. I also find it interesting that most pagan tradition do not teachbthat their main gods are creator deities.
You should have Pageau discuss art with John David Ebert at some point.
So excited for this!
we want the meeting of Pageau and Jorjani! make it happen!
Jorjani vs Pageau, that is not going to end well
Jorjani is too much of a midwit to ever appear next to someone who isn't constantly tipping their fedoras
Norse Paleo Pagan (not neopagan) here...
The Old Testament is an altered version of the Septuagint, which is an altered version of the Hebrew Bible. So, the Old Testament is inherently false.
The closest thing in the New testament that is close to Jesus is the writings of Paul (the ones actually written by him) a full generation after Jesus, and anything we hear about Jesus from him, he heard from someone else who said they were there. The gospels were written after that. Luke itself is FULL of historical inaccuracies. Nothing in the Bible is an eye witness account. So the Bible cannot prove the Bible or religion. So any argument of "Jesus said...", or the "OT says...." is not a valid argument.
So, using the Bible to justify, is not possible. It's no different than saying the Norse Sagas are a religious tome (They're not BTW).
i dont even think styx realises how badly he and his way of life are being roasted by jonathan. unfortunately thats what happens when you dont have a "home" and think that it's all about showing people up in debates
Its about truth. You have decided to stop seeking truth and accepted blind faith. You hate Styx because he makes you deep down question your reality.
@@oldman_eleven haha no lol
@@neversurrender6112 🤣
Jonathan's ignorant of pagan peoples so he looks stupid as well.
Pageau killed it. Modern "Paganism" is liturgical black-face.
As far as I can tell stixx believes that spirituality is a natural phenomena exclusively and Jonathon believes there is also the supernatural sourced religion. A place of faith.
Well Styx believes in spirits and demons and those tend to be more aligned with the supernatural.
@@Ace-pb8iu not necessarily. Earth religions appear 'spirit based. He stays within the scope of the rational 'realist. He believes those demons are a natural phenomena as in that is how the organic grey matter of man works to understand.
The focus being on our design only. Man and the reasonableness of how our mind reach for bigger answers. It's a vain mirror he looks into enjoying the higher intelligence of himself often.
@@heatherwhitehead3743 Yeah well if that is what he believes then that is horseshit. No offense.
His name was Jmmanuel, not Jesus Christ. His biological father was Gabriel, an extraterrestrial, his biological mother was Mary and his stepfather was Joseph. Jmmanuel did not die on the cross because he did a meditation to stay alive. He was nursed back to health by healers. Took them 3 days. They all walked together to India. Problem was that his mother died en route. Jmmanuel made it to India and got married and had several children. You can read about this in the book "The Talmud of Jmmanuel" by 'Billy' Eduard Albert Meier (BEAM).
Izas Manu the King of Edessa in AD60 during the Jewish Revolt.
There are considerable misunderstandings on both sides. Interesting discussion nevertheless.
Then it's a failure of both sides to make their point clearly or not comprehend the points being made. Or both, either way this could have been avoided.
Resembles the rebel faction....of the day in Jerusalem , who will finally revolt. If he is speaking to a crowd...many say , only catch part of it ; " There's that guy...he has a really loud voice...."
" Woe is to he ..Woe is to him..."
He's yelling this. ( How Jophesus quoted him )
Fun talk from the guests, I would prefer if the hosts weren't so quick to interject and shift the conversation.
I'm reading this book by Seraphim Rose, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future. I highly recommend it. It talks about prelests and I agree with what the book says, which is that they're deceptive. It goes into UFOs and much more as well.
Yep, it's a great book, I also really enjoyed it. If you are not already familiar with it, I recommend you checkout Seraphim Rose's "Orthodox Survival Course", it's pretty phenomenal. You can find a full reading of it (it consists of several lectures) on Orthodox Reactionary's channel. It's long but really worth the effort.
Never thought I’d see styx hammer and pageau together... my jaw dropped for a minute 🤣
What a fascinating conversation!
I love both of these guys, but I’m really glad that Styx called pageau on some of his Christian -centric views.
@Phlebas I agree although I didn’t hear him try to deny this. But that doesn’t make the Christian story true.
Styx's knowledge on metaphysics seems paper thin
This was a really interesting conversation