Catholicism & Orthodoxy w/ Erick Ybarra
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
- Hallow: hallow.com/mattfradd
Ericks Book on Melchizedek: www.amazon.com/Melchizedek-La...
Erick's Article on "the heretical pope" Vigilius: www.academia.edu/49426689/Pap...
Erick's debate: • Catholic vs. Orthodox ...
Catholic Lofi: / @catholiclofi
Erick's Article “Coping” with Being United to a “Heretical” Pope?: erickybarra.org/2020/11/01/co...
Baltimore Office!: www.liturgicalartsjournal.com...
00:00 Start
2:02 Intro
3:00 Michael Lofton was Greek Orthodox when he started the Reason&Theology channel
6:05 Going back to basics
9:33 What point did Michael Lofton become Catholic
11:54 Amazing minds come to different sides of the question
12:33 Tradition and Heritage
13:36 Tent-pitcher
15:27 People not to be taken seriously
16:31 Triumphalism
19:24 Bullets in the golden gun
21:27 Erick Ybarra was high church Anglican
24:49 Was there one church before 1054?
27:37 5th century schisms
32:31 Summary of why to accept papal claims
36:33 Epistemology
40:34 What did the church do if the pope was a bad fountain
44:34 How Ex cathedra developed
58:06 Inerrancy and Criticism
1:02:26 Simple faith and salvation
1:06:20 Catholic Lofi
1:07:15 Listening and Christianity a tough man’s religion
1:12:04 Why put on the breaks before making the jump to Orthodox because of Pope Francis
1:24:01 Purity spiral
1:29:14 Claims and the most difficult doctrine of the Filioque
1:39:09 Council of Florence
1:42:08 1,2,3 and keep searching
1:42:59 Liturgy
1:45:52 How does he pray right now
1:52:29 Joy in the Christian home
1:57:04 Hallow
2:00:15 Break music
2:04:24 Melchizedek and the Last Supper
2:06:08 Forthcoming 800 page book on Papacy, containing 10 years of research
2:11:20 Four things necessary in the source material for papal primacy
2:14:07 Epistemology
2:17:55 Church Fathers
2:20:32 Who are the honest Orthodox defenders on TH-cam today and thoughts on debates
2:33:37 Who are the best Catholic apologists who address Orthodoxy in a way that is fair (not a strawman)
2:35:08 Wrapup - บันเทิง
As an Orthodox Christian I love pints and I love listening to Erick
I am going to be painfully honest. Erick speaks so far above my intelligence, but, he really helped me understand some of the early difficulties the church had to deal with. I realize that I seriously, underestimate what this beautiful church of ours has gone through for 2000 years! I cant tell you how many times I hung my hat on the statement "before the reformation, we were all Catholic!" Minus the Orthodox split. As though it was somehow much easier to defend being Catholic, then modern times.
Boy was I wrong!
Thankfully we have these big thinkers, like Erick, to help us "kitchen table" thinkers, to really feel confident in knowing that we are in the one true church, of our dear Lord!
Thank you Matt and Erick! 💠
This is exactly the problem with the Rad trad side. It was never a utopia in the church. We have always been in the end times
The church has always been under attack, and it has seen even worse times than this... however, the real issue plaguing the church today is that it can't identify its enemies and that it has been infiltrated by a homosexual cabal...
As a catholic, I agree. The Church has always been in conflict, even since her earliest days. It wasn’t that we were all 100% unified at one point and then suddenly things went south. I find that many radical Catholics oversimplify our history like this
What does that mean in practical terms, the "one true church"?
Does that mean everybody outside of the church is going to hell regardless of what they do believe or not believe?
If they are not going to hell, then what is saving them?
@@gideondavid30 the mercy of God
Erick Ybarra is such a wonderful person and a crazy good Apologist for Catholicism.
The "Orthobro" community is slandering him but still he is talking with respect about the Eastern Orthodox Church, that is the spirit of God working in him.
God bless him and his family🕊
Halleluyah Amen
Totally agree. How anyone could be mean to Erick is beyond me. Such a class act.
@@bethanyann1060 It's because Orthodox are converting to Catholicism because of him
Exposing contradiction and lies spoken by Erik is not slander. Ubi Petrus has multiple videos on it.
@@diegobarragan4904 I’ve seen them slander him and assume bad intentions on his part. Also they make fun of his appearance.
@@bethanyann1060 Ybarra constantly patronizes Orthodox and dismisses those who disagree with him as uneducated… reeks of pride, but you don’t smell it.
Glad to see Ybarra outside of a debate context and really get to know him as a genuine, warm and humble person, as opposed to some of the uncharitable caricatures I’ve seen.
do you mean the uncharitable characters or the uncharitable characters who try to foist off an uncharitable caricature of the great Erik Ibarra? The man has a mind like a steel trap. He can hold an idea clear in his mind in the face of a firestorm of hysterical baloney like none that I’ve ever seen. Thank you Erik for your steadfast and gentlemanly conduct.
I truly appreciate this channel and the content it provides. I am so turned off by the ugliness of a lot (not all) of the internet / TH-cam bitterness. I and I believe many others need more channels like this.
God bless us all in our journeys toward truth. 🙏
This took me two days to get through. I had to rewind and re-listen a few times, Wow. Erick is a treasure of the Church! What a great, honest, vulnerable and holy interview. It’s so easy to critique the Church (apparently throughout history), and yet there is no where for Catholics to go especially when the dogma and practice seem divided. Erick represents the struggle so well, and yet, gives me hope that we’ll be led to the Truth…as we continually are!
The best quote I heard was from Hector Molina when I asked “how do I evangelize to ex-Catholics who are too hurt by the Church?” he said “don’t leave Peter because of Judas.” 🤯 Even though Peter was imperfect, he asked for forgiveness and tried again. This Church is not perfect but it is Christ that makes us holy. However, we have to be constantly aware of our imperfections and constantly asking for forgiveness and trying again tomorrow. Fortitude at its best.
P.S. Hallow is AWESOME! The best way to get daily scripture and pray the rosary! Changed my prayer life.
Your comment is so wholesome. God bless you sister. Please continue to remain strong in your catholic faith 😇 🙏
You’re right on how Erick “represents the struggle so well.” He’s brilliant and can definitely stand with many of the “big name” Orthodox channels but Erick’s disposition is saintly. Honestly I’m convicted by how he comports himself. The wisdom throughout these videos is incredibly pastors for an “academic” like Ibarra! Much prayers to him!
qyote---he best way to get daily scripture and pray the rosary! --unquote I have read the Holy Bible many times looking for scripture that mentions praying to beads. Have not found it yet.Please--quote it from the Holy Bible.
Also, many have told me that Mary prayed to beads--Again, have not read it in the Holy Bible.---
@@mitchellosmer1293 non sequitur.
@@mitchellosmer1293Is kneeling and grasping your hands when in prayer in the Bible?
It's not. God is fine with it either way, as long as we keep it humble and authentic.
I mean sure, God is strict with worship/sacrifice, but never was He strict with prayer was he?
ERICK YBARRA IS SUCH A KING I GOT SO FREAKING EXCITED WHEN I SAW YOU HAD HIM ON!!!!
A king? That's a podcast of catholic apologists not a great philosophers and church scholars debate.
@@paolody438 a very knowledgeable, humble Christian man, a king as much as we all are in Christ
true.
@@bloodoranges2631 Catholics claim Sunday is a holy day made by God.
I will ask these questions again which NO ONE can answer.
And I know you will NOT!!!
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE RESTED on the First day of Creation?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE BLESSED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE SANCTIFIED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE NAMED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE DECLARES the First day of the week as HIS HOLY DAY?--(to make the day special).
FACTS:
The ONLY DAY GOD RESTED on---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD BLESSED---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD SANCTIFIED---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD named--7th day.-Sabbath -Isaiah 58:13
The ONLY DAY GOD DECLARES AS HIS HOLY DAY------7th day---Sabbath--Isaiah 58:13
.Quote the Holy Bible and prove me wrong!!!
(When a law is once enacted by proper Authority, that law must remain in force until that same Authority repeals it; and the repeal must be as plainly stated as the original enactment." - anonymous)
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This is sp comforting and helpful. I'm currently in the searching and reading everything stage, and it's been feeling kind of stressful. Around the 1 hr 10 minute mark(ish) was exactly what I needed right now.
Ybarra speaks with great authority and balance. Very calming to hear such intellect and wisdom, and one of our own. Great job of interviewing, Matt. Just the right amount of gently guiding the conversation.
Wow! Heavy-duty stuff! But very helpful. Thank you, Matt, for having Erick on your show. Have him back for sure. 🙏🏻
1:52:29 Joy in the Christian home / as a father of two and hopping for more kids this is great advice! Please make a short clip of this part!!! much love!!!
Erick is so well spoken I love this man plz have him on tomorrow the next then the next day and the day after he is great loved him Matt love you all!!!!❤️
This was fantastic and exactly what I needed. Thank you!
I wanted to add, Eric Ybarra mentioned towards the end that he thinks the exodus towards Orthodoxy will continue to grow. This may or may not be true. Something important to consider though, is the world of difference between how Orthodox and Catholics live. Generally speaking in America, the average Orthodox Christian has a much closer relationship to the people in their parish and especially the parish priest. Priests are almost always married and have younger children. There is a total overall spiritual effect from these kinds of things, especially when you consider the value that Orthodox place on liturgy, theology, and spiritual practices. I've been a priest for 8 years and served in five different states across the USA. Ancedotally, I'll say from my experience, the real decisive factor is the community that surrounds a person. Academics, theology, Internet videos, those really do matter in some sense. But I think ultimately what matters for a person making a call, "should I be Orthodox or Catholic" ends up boiling down to the community life and if that is healing the deep wounds of their spiritual ailments.
Erick is super chill and a refreshing brother in Christ.
This is a wonderful conversation, thank you. One thing you mentioned, not central to the conversation but very important, is 'Trad scrupulosity'. Yes! I am firm supporter of the old rite and attend it almost exclusively. Thankfully, the sort of stuff you referred to is entirely absent where I go. However, I have, in the past, listened to trad sermons online and found scrupulosity becoming a problem. Some of it is absurd, such as quoting a Pope from 70 years ago on how long a lady's sleeve should be.Anyone who reads actual traditional moral theology will find the Catholic positions are very balanced. Indeed, Ronald Knox could refer, in 'The Belief of Catholics', to how the Catholic Church was viewed as morally lax by other Christians (which just shows how much protestantism has changed over the last century). Catholics are not obliged to find the most rigorous position and follow it. Checking online to find what the most extreme position is in order to be 'on the safe side' is, I would argue, spiritually dangerous. Thanks for bringing this up!
Amazing discussion. Definitely would be keeping up with Erick’s work. Such a blessing!
Love you Erick, thank you for everything
Delighted to hear Erick is going to an Ordinariate parish!
Loved your guest. Keep up the hard work!
Wow. What a wonderful rich exchange. Thank You
Excellent conversation and a great model for our communities to continue to understand one another.
Your Orthodox brother in Christ.
Thanks for this great dialogue. This is exceptional.
"We technically everyrhing to death" as an explanation is humurous and enlightening in a sense that opened new information to me at least, about the Catholic church! The things that was discussed here are a lot to take in but so helpful nonetheless! Massive thanks!
I heard someone once say in the end the reason I am Catholic is because I am in the West. In the end I think that is as good an answer as any. The two lungs of the Church statement is true, we are one Church...if it was a heavyweight fight at the end God as the judge will be raising both hands.
God bless and keep you both- this was a wonderful conversation. More than Erick's arguments, I admire and love the deep calm with which he seems to discuss matters of the Faith
I really and truly think I don't have a rein on my passions to be able to adequately understand the true depths of the Faith (though it's the only thing that really holds my attention anymore). I remember when I converted three years ago I was graced with about a year and a half of peace, comfort in faith, and a desire for prayer and fasting.
Now, an excellent conversation like this gives me some measure of peace again. Yet I need only scroll through the comments on this video and spy some comment about "Erick is a liar!" or "Erick was refuted by X on this point!" for my soul to feel a panic, and me to furiously skim through the first paragraph or two of a couple of articles in order to find some phrase or argument which seems to refute such claims and gives me that same peace again. I'm looking for the security that mans' arguments provide, rather than looking for God (who never promised us security on this earth).
I pray that I be able to break such habits, and be able to seek God without such agitation- as Erick himself seems to here. I'm not certain I could stand being friends with an Orthodox priest as he was without seeking to prove him wrong regularly for my own sense of peace (never considering the man's soul). Please pray for me also.
My favorite quote from this video:
when Matt said "Yeah, but Christ was Divine and the Fathers were Saints."
Erick it’s time you do your own podcast.
Ybarra is an ABSOLUTE legend at this point...
Why? These two were just spitting disinformation and straight out propaganda the entire time:
1. Rome never has any supremacy since there used to be five ancient patriarchies which were equal with eachother and only came together when they wanted to condemn someone... ironically they eventually condemned eachother.
2. Jesus never established the catholic church. He was never in rome. Probably peter was never in rome either. The tomb of peter was based on a hearsay.
3. The reason why catholicism is so widespread is because of imperialism. Spain and portugal were the largest imperial colonial power in the world in the 16th century and under the the banner "gospel, gold, and glory" they spread catholicism while killing and robbing the entire world.
4. There isnt any philosophical unitiy within the catholic church. So have leftist groups who believes in the liberation theology and lunatics from the opus dei, all calling themselves true catholics while condemning eachother.
@@misterprogressive8730 ahahaha go away, liar.
th-cam.com/video/j6ps2p5ehB0/w-d-xo.html
@mister progressive Let me ask you, what kind of church does Christ want to build? Where are what is the Church?
@@alphonsustheleast1537 was there any live chat ?
Matt - First Erick is a fount of information about the early Church fathers and thank you for the discussion. Second, the quote you read from your text from Father Jason Charron is profound and NEEDS to be in a published book to be available to all the faithful. I listened over and over to transcribe it for myself. Please have Father on again and discuss this topic of disillusionment with the Catholic Church. I attend a Novus Ordo church in a small city with no other Catholic, eastern Catholic or Orthodox Church. I love my Pastor who is reverent and humble and traditional and the light of Christ shines forth from him. But I also hear the disillusionment of others in my own family, in my parish and in the universal Church, all of whom need to hear the wisdom of Father Charron and other faithful servants of the Body of Christ.
As someone who was a cradle Roman Catholic all the way through Confirmation and ventured into Eastern Orthodoxy later on in life, I will say that both have an Achilles heel. Ultimately, I find solace in Hebrews 13:17-19. All schisms within the Apostolic Churches undoubtedly stained them all in some way. That being said, the answer isn’t Protestantism. You stay in communion with your Bishop, maintain your sacramental, liturgical, and prayer life; trusting in the grace of God. Pray for our hierarchy, as ultimately, it is they that will be held accountable for ecclesiastical matters. I have since then decided to reconcile myself with the Church I was brought up in, because honestly, the polemics are exhausting and distract me from focusing on Christ.
This was wonderful. I can’t wait for Erick’s book to come out.
Love Erick's humility and honesty here
Great work, Matt. I have enjoyed Erick’s approach and style of dialogue.
Where there any live chat ?
I had the same experience of dreading the transition between High Anglican liturgy and the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo. In fact, it took me 30 years to overcome. I love the Tridentine Mass, and I'm blessed to attend a church with a magnificent Novus Ordo. But I still use my Book of Common Prayer from the Episcopal Church of my youth. It's such a beautiful collection of prayers.
@@MrFisherteach Catholics claim Sunday is a holy day made by God.
I will ask these questions again which NO ONE can answer.
And I know you will NOT!!!
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE RESTED on the First day of Creation?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE BLESSED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE SANCTIFIED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE NAMED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE DECLARES the First day of the week as HIS HOLY DAY?--(to make the day special).
FACTS:
The ONLY DAY GOD RESTED on---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD BLESSED---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD SANCTIFIED---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD named--7th day.-Sabbath -Isaiah 58:13
The ONLY DAY GOD DECLARES AS HIS HOLY DAY------7th day---Sabbath--Isaiah 58:13
.Quote the Holy Bible and prove me wrong!!!
(When a law is once enacted by proper Authority, that law must remain in force until that same Authority repeals it; and the repeal must be as plainly stated as the original enactment." - anonymous)
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I absolutely love Eric, God bless him and his family, what a G
We in the Orthodox Church celabrate the Epiphany today, which is New Testament proof of the fallacy of Filioque. Ergo, your dear friends, the Orthodox, are not wrong about Filioque...😊 Nevertheless, this is a very good talk and I really appreciate and applaud the bravery with which both of you are going at it, even though I disagree with some of your key claims and reasoning that keep you both Roman Catholics. May God keep you both! 🙏
Incredible video. I didn't want to miss a min
This has been a refreshingly candid discussion about Orthodoxy vs Catholicism.
•Somtimes we win by an inch, but an inch is an inch.
•God won't judge you for not understanding this particular phrase in Byzantine Greek the way it was understood by South-East-Anatolians.
Also, the Little Office of Baltimore is great. I use it a lot. It is perfect especially for people who want to get into the Liturgy of the Hours in an easy way that does not consist of flipping pages 546 times during one (1) prayer or having to by 4 volumes.
1:39:45 There was NO EAST and WEST, only the ONE SINGLE, Christian Roman Empire Led first by Rome, for a short while, then Constantinople. In the early centuries, THE WEST was also used to note, the language, of Latin, used mostly in the western part of the empire, and Greek language used mostly in THE EAST, or eastern part of the empire. IT WAS NEVER SPILT INTO TWO EMPIRES. Over centuries “Greekness” tended to eventually dominated over the whole empire. Greek influence was already part of the historical influence of the Roman civilisation from its conception, even well before it became an empire. Once Rome became a pagan empire, and later Christian, it became the capital of Christendom. This was only for a few centuries early on. For the over whelming majority of the longest running empire in world history, …the Christian Roman Empire, it was overwhelmingly Greek, and led by the capital of Christendom, Constantinople, which moved from Rome. Byzantine Empire, or Byzantium was NOT it’s name. It was the name of a very ancient pagan City, long gone, by the time Constantinople was built onto it. Because of its rich historical context, which included its geographical position, …made it the ideal position to build the jewel of Europe, and capital of Christendom, glittering Constantinople. On the flip side, there was no real “Holy “ Roman Empire, there was nothing “Holy” about it, nor was it the Roman Empire . There was only ever ONE ,…ROMAN EMPIRE, and it’s capital was first Rome, then Constantinople, it didn’t ever split in two, one led by Rome, and the other led by Constantinople, that is ridiculous.
Funny. Ybarra (or Ibarra according to the Basque modern alphabet) is a very typical Basque family name. It means ‘valley’. The Basque Country, which has given the Church great saints: St Ignacius of Loyola, St Francis Xavier, St Michael Garikoitz…
I appreciated the dad talk about family devotional time later in the video.
Erick is so underrated.
-On the Passion, Christ was stripped of His Majesty = It's the same when the Church was stripped of her Liturgy, art, and culture (the beauty of the Church was stripped)
-On the Cross, the BODY and SPIRIT of Christ was sundered = It's the same when Pope Benedict sundered the Papal authority from the Seat of Peter (he stepped down from his seat in Rome but implicitly stated that he still holds the Papal authority)
-When judas renounced Christ and surrendered Him to the world = It's the same when Pope Paul VI renounced his crown and led the Church to surrender to the world
~I was contemplating this for a while, and I found Erick's journey in returning back to the faith very enlightening.
Early divisions in the 1AD are interesting because they aren't new divisions that started only after Christ created a new people. . They were divisions already present among diverse understandings and practices of diverse Judaisms. Whom is the Heavenly Man riding on the clouds, told in Daniel? A human who was made God? A God whom only appeared to be a man? Or the second power in Heaven, whom Moses knew, whom Abraham knew, whom Jacob knew, who became Man through the Virgin.
That was a beautiful text that the priest sent u 😢
I’m enjoying these debates more than ever being outside the church for a while and arguing my way back in ❤
I love how expressive Matt is when a truth hits him hard.
th-cam.com/video/j6ps2p5ehB0/w-d-xo.html
@@joshuamoore8278 the devil would win.
You guys, thank you for your utter honesty and transparency. We need more real dialogue like this.
Catholics claim Sunday is a holy day made by God.
I will ask these questions again which NO ONE can answer.
And I know you will NOT!!!
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE RESTED on the First day of Creation?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE BLESSED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE SANCTIFIED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE NAMED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special).
Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE DECLARES the First day of the week as HIS HOLY DAY?--(to make the day special).
FACTS:
The ONLY DAY GOD RESTED on---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD BLESSED---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD SANCTIFIED---7th day.
The ONLY DAY GOD named--7th day.-Sabbath -Isaiah 58:13
The ONLY DAY GOD DECLARES AS HIS HOLY DAY------7th day---Sabbath--Isaiah 58:13
.Quote the Holy Bible and prove me wrong!!!
(When a law is once enacted by proper Authority, that law must remain in force until that same Authority repeals it; and the repeal must be as plainly stated as the original enactment." - anonymous)
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This is the clarity I've been seeking on the Orthodox faith. I love our orthodox brothers and sisters of course. Matt and Erick, thank you.
This was so helpful in easing the stress and urgency I’ve been feeling about discerning where to land. The more I learned about church history the more lost and overwhelmed I felt. It’s nice to know that yes, it’s complex, and no I don’t need to pull the trigger immediately.
I think the book Erick refers to at 27:30 is actually titled, "The Lost History of Christianity,” by Philip Jenkins
Listening to this discussion about the historical divisions within the church, I can't help but think of Matthew 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves." (NRSV)
This was unbelievably intellectual.
2:07:11
So Erick, you did hear me say that I want 700-800 pages. But you heard it partially. I want 5-7 volumes of 700-800 pages.
So, this would be the first volume. Can't wait for the rest. Don't be like George R. R. Martin.
Hi Matt,
Fantastic interview. Could you perhaps have Erick or another person on again and focus on the syriac tradition.
Excellent dialogue.
I think I've found the best apologist alive today.
Matt asks a question and I'm like oh yeah, really good point. Erick answers and I'm like also really good answer. A theological ping pong match/friendly of greatness.
This is excellent. Thanks to both of you!
And I'd just like to say that we've always been borderline TOO loosey-goosey with our kids, so I guess we avoided that pitfall, while falling into many others!
So much respect for Erick.
this was incredible
Your pre-stream music sounds like it belongs in an old NFL highlight film. 😁
Lol when I first read your comment I thought you said “pre-schism” music
@@bethanyann1060 I'm not that old!! 😄
I agree with the comment about Novus Ordo. Sometimes you're traveling and the celebration is just not good. Beyond that, If you're traveling where the local vernacular isn't your language it becomes even more challenging to follow it. The TLM is celebrated in the same manner wherever you go. Talk about "catholic" as "universal", and the TLM is as close as it gets. And this is all coming from someone that was raised post V2.
th-cam.com/video/j6ps2p5ehB0/w-d-xo.html
That’s bs. The vernacular mass is the same mass wherever you go. I’ve been to mass in places where English and Spanish were not an option for me, and I was still able to follow along. It would not be a Catholic Church if the mass isn’t the same. Even if you go to 2 different churches and the mass is in English, it’s the same mass. It’s all one single mass being celebrated. You just want to hate on NO for no reason with no proof.
th-cam.com/video/-DvvQ5Wp_yo/w-d-xo.html
Or is it?
@@ntmn8444 I think what Ricardo meant is that It (the NO) is the same mass, but in different languages. The beauty of having one, universal liturgical language like Latin is that no matter where you go, you will always know what's going on and understand. Hence, Latin mass = I can go to India, Mexico, Germany, etc. and everywhere will be the same. Now if I go to a NO in any of those countries, yes, they will have the same form of the mass but the languages are all different and I won't understand. No unity. Every major world religion has a liturgical language, so it's always confused me why the Church abandoned hers entirely in order to pursue the vernacular. Muslims have Arabic, Hindus have Sanskrit, Jews have Hebrew... the Church had Latin but not anymore. You should try attending the Latin mass. My wife and I started attending over a year ago and have never looked back.
Well Justinian really take Vigilius with force and against his will, and for not talking about how bad Theodore was, it's really a great story, with material for any new Netflix style series.
this guy is amazing. 😳 who knew people could be so smart.
50 mins in and want so say thanks for the great convo. I became interested in this guest after seeing his Christian character when debating Jay D.
Wouldn't Roman Catholics mostly agree pope Francis crossed the line by placing a native American idol into the reliquary of the Vatican?
It was an icon of the Blessed Mother so?
@@t.d6379 no it is not. End of story.
@markeedeep 🤣🤣🤣 comical reply but okay suit yourself.
Best interview I’ve seen on orthodox vs catholic debate 👍🙏🇻🇦✝️⛪️🇺🇸❤️
One of the best when it comes to Eastern Orthodoxy!
1:39:45 There was NO EAST and WEST, only the ONE SINGLE, Christian Roman Empire Led first by Rome, for a short while, then Constantinople. In the early centuries, THE WEST was also used to note, the language, of Latin, used mostly in the western part of the empire, and Greek language used mostly in THE EAST, or eastern part of the empire. IT WAS NEVER SPILT INTO TWO EMPIRES. Over centuries “Greekness” tended to eventually dominated over the whole empire. Greek influence was already part of the historical influence of the Roman civilisation from its conception, even well before it became an empire. Once Rome became a pagan empire, and later Christian, it became the capital of Christendom. This was only for a few centuries early on. For the over whelming majority of the longest running empire in world history, …the Christian Roman Empire, it was overwhelmingly Greek, and led by the capital of Christendom, Constantinople, which moved from Rome. Byzantine Empire, or Byzantium was NOT it’s name. It was the name of a very ancient pagan City, long gone, by the time Constantinople was built onto it. Because of its rich historical context, which included its geographical position, …made it the ideal position to build the jewel of Europe, and capital of Christendom, glittering Constantinople. On the flip side, there was no real “Holy “ Roman Empire, there was nothing “Holy” about it, nor was it the Roman Empire . There was only ever ONE ,…ROMAN EMPIRE, and it’s capital was first Rome, then Constantinople, it didn’t ever split in two, one led by Rome, and the other led by Constantinople, that is ridiculous.
I have nev er seen the Roman Church as depleted of credibility as it is now under Francis. If he were in the business world he would have been dumped long time ago.
29:35
Correction, "miaphysite" is more properly translated as "one nature" not "one person."
From what I hear phusis has multiple meanings
Thank God for this conversation. I have had my own struggles coming from my Protestant heritage, and even though I originally wanted to convert because I loved Catholicism, it became an exercise in refuting and knocking down increasingly well thought out Protestant arguments. Which was not a good fit with my own weakness leaning towards arrogance and pride.
During that time I came up with a rule (because that's something that frustrated me with most Protestant objections): If you can only build up your own view by knocking down another, stop trying. If you can't build it up solidly-edifying try again.
If it wasn't for that rule - and I think that's more properly called not my own rule - I probably still would have gone forward with my conversion, but with the false motives entirely. And we have a horrifyingly real example that you can be in the right Church for the false motives: Judas.
Regarding the schism of chalcedon 451 AD , the Copts of Alex and Syrian were called monophysist ie "one nature", but they called themselves as meaphysist ie "only one nature contains 2 natures"!! Which as per the Copts and Syrian is an accurate definition for their stance regarding Christ's Nature !
Jesus Christ knew first hand the weakness of a human, yet he founded His Church on Peter because of his zeal for Christ, sent by the Father, in spite of his denying Jesus three times. For me, the Catholic, Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ, is forever the Church of Jesus Christ, in spite of what misguided men do to change it and make it theirs. I was born into a Catholic family with a mother who converted from the Quaker church because a Catholic Priest gave her the True explanation of the Holy Trinity. We were a Catholic family through and through. Mom had a deep devotion to the Blessed Mother, and prayed her Rosary daily. We were involved in all Parish activities. Our life revolved around our Catholic Faith. I wouldn’t know how to be anything other than a Catholic woman. I pray for the cleansing and healing of the Church, and conversion from the Papal Seat, throughout all the Clergy, consecrated Brothers and Sisters, and the Laity. This is home.
Darn it Erick! Just when I was thinking of jumping!!!
To be fair on Pope Francis on the transgender point, he did compare it to nuclear warfare because they're both contrary to nature, which typically I would've said isn't a pastoral thing to say but I'm still happy he did since he was very clear then. But yeah this was a good video.
I needed to hear this conversation. I'm at the fork, being in an Anglo-Catholic church. Praying outlook together from 1928 Prayer Book, beautiful simple liturgy and the eucharist together. I love it all. I listen to Orthodox teachers on podcasts. But I'm feeling a tug toward the Catholic church. You spoke about the problems with that now. The evil Pope (yes, that's my opinion) and the disappointment when o go to some of the churches. The targeting of Trads. The corruption throughout. I'm very hesitant to move from where I am because of this, but am yearning for an ancient traditional church.
I'd like to thank Erick and Jay for my conversion to Orthodoxy. Especially as a former Protestant.
I love this. Lutheran that have considered catholism and orthodoxy. This is great, and all the issues over all makes sense to be Protestant or catholic love catholism.
Mat please interview Paul.
Sing the hours
He's a blessing to Catholicism.
Found his channel last week. It’s wonderful!
What is his channel?
Is that Jacob I hear speak sometimes off camera? Id recognize that voice. Is he working at Pints of Aquinas? That'd be wonderful
1:05:42
Luke 10:38-42
Please could you find me any post schism Eastern Orthodox Saint who after the Palamite Councils still maintained that rome has sacramental Grace?
1:06:56 - as it’s been said: “God is like Jesus. God has always been like Jesus. There’s never been a time that God wasn’t like Jesus. We’ve not always known that but now we do.” The journey from the Old Cov to the New is not the journey of God going from meaner to nicer but rather humanity’s journey of coming to realize the unrelenting goodness of God.
@Daniel Smith I think he got it from Brian Zahnd who got it from someone else.
@Daniel Smith I actually interviewed Brian (as well as Brad) and I think he said something about it on there. Not 100% for sure though.
What happened to the speech during the break 💔 where can I find that
Thank you Matt and Erick for such a rich conversation! I just had a question on the part of the video talking about the filioque (1:32:29). Didn't the original creed not have the filioque in it? The first two ecumenical councils drafted the creed which did not contain the filioque and this was agreed upon by east and west. I'm curious where Erick is getting that the filioque was always a part of the apostolic deposit of faith in the west. If it were, why did the original creed not have it in there? I understand that there was an Arian heresy that crept into the west in the middle of the first millennium, and some parts of the west added the filioque to combat the heresy and affirm the divinity of Christ. However, didn't Pope John VIII condemn the filioque (along with the other bishops) in the 8th ecumenical council in 879? This was the official position of Rome until the beginning of the 11th century when the filioque was officially inserted into the creed by the Pope. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Thank you again.
Hi Michael Holwey,
I touched upon this in my book on the Filioque which is available on Amazon. In short, the Filioque is seen in Fathers such as Ambrose, Augustine, Pope Leo, Pope Gregory the Great, Pope Leo III, and many other saints that are venerated as chief witnesses to the Apostolic faith by both Catholics and Orthodox. An Ecumenical Council as well as the Synodikon of Holy Orthodoxy include some of these names, making them premiere saints within the Orthodox faith. It would be extremely unfitting to have so many saints on the calendar who upheld "a heretical doctrine of the Filioque" for so many centuries. In the 19th century, the Orthodox were comparing the Filioque error to Arianism, and so the doctrine received a serious condemnation by the Orthodox Church. A condemnation which I don't think is fitting given their acceptance of these saints as fathers and doctors of Christ's body.
John VIII never condemned the Filioque. Rome defended the Filioque doctrine ever since the beginning. What C'ple 879 condemned was any alterations or additions to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. However, such a rule is not inherent within the preaching of Jesus or the Apostles, and thus it does not make up the sacred deposit of faith. Consequently, it can be changed by the proper authority so long as the sacred deposit is thereby defended. Since the Filioque is biblical, patristic, and reasonable, the West added Filioque to the creed, and this does not contradict anything essential to Christianity even given the condemnatory decree of Cple 879. The Greeks accepted this twice at the Councils of Lyons 1274 and Florence 1439, though both of these Councils are rejected by the Eastern Orthodox. I would recommend looking into the writings on the filioque by an Orthodox scholar Peter Gilbert whose website (de unione ecclesiarum) is devoted to transmitting the ecumenical papers of John Bekkos, the Patriarch of Constantinople who was pro-union with Rome via Filioque.
@@Erick_Ybarra Thank you for your reply. I am trying to understand the western position on this as I feel there is confusion as to what "procession" really means. Are we talking about the spiration of the Holy Spirit in the Godhead before creation, or are we talking about the sending of the Holy Spirit into the world as part of salvation history, or both? As I understand it, these are two very different things and shouldn't be confused.
I have been reading up on some of these western saints' writings on the Holy Spirit, and I can see what you mean. So far I've read Ambrose and a little bit of Augustine. Augustine's language is certainly very strong, but he admits his theology is speculative and is open to correction. In any case, I would be very careful to suggest that the filioque teaching was a part of the deposit of faith in the west. The deposit of faith, as you already mentioned, is what the Apostles themselves handed down. East and west received the same deposit from the Apostles. It doesn't seem fair to call some of these fathers' writings from the fourth century and later the deposit. Great saints, like Augustine, did their best to discourse on theology without the ability to collaborate with their eastern brothers so some of their writings do feel very speculative and open to criticism, however, its not something we can necessarily hold against the saints since no saint said and did everything perfectly. I would also ask if the filioque was a part of the deposit of faith in the west, why did the western fathers not push for it in the 2nd Ecumenical Council (Constantinople 1) where the Creed was finalized and agreed upon by both east and west? I apologize if you answer this question in your book. I hope to pick that up sometime in the near future.
As you said yourself in the interview, this is a very complicated topic, so I really do appreciate your thoughts and insights on these matters. Thank you for your time.
@@michaelholwey4611- The filioque was not added into the creed during the early councils because it was not an issue without the challenge of Arianism. The denial of Christ's divinity was the goad that called for a response affirming his place in the Trinity. Thus "filioque" asserted that wherever there is one person of the Godhead, there must be present the other two also.
And as noted, the idea of filioque was not actually rejected in 879, but the arrogance of unilateral insertion of anthing into the creed without calling another ecumenical council. It was in effect a denial of the usurpation of authority, on the disputed grounds of "petrine" leadership supposedly bestowed by Jesus. Basically, they were saying, "You can't do that without asking us first." It was not the word itself which they rejected.
I also came up through high church "continuing" Anglicanism, where liturgical excellence is almost seen as a mark of the true Church. Erick's point that beautiful liturgy doesn't strictly correspond to truth, or "true-ness", is critically important, and was a pretty hard to adjust to after having been immersed in the Anglo-Catholic ethos. Christ is just as present in a weekday low ordinary form mass said by a mumbling priest, or in a "hippy guitar mass", as he is in a solemn high Latin mass. I would certainly prefer the latter for reasons of taste, fidelity to the tradition, and formation (lex orandi lex credendi), but I must submit my preferences to Christ and His Church and trust that Christ will be faithful despite human carelessness and disobedience.
Totally agree Ryan (I prefer guitars but I love that we can turn up to the same mass as brother sand sister despite some differences in taste
Great point. It reminds me of the time I was looking into “Anglo-Catholicism” and happened upon a website of theirs that bragged about their liturgy being “more Catholic than the Catholics”. And then the next paragraph they were bragging about being accepting of homosexuality as a non-sinful lifestyle, women priests, etc. It was quite bizarre.
'But there is that bloody Free Will thing' lol nice Matt
The certainty and solace ended when the scandal in the hierarchy seemed like it would never end and Pope Francis started in with the double talk. It’s like between the pincers of the two the rug was pulled out from under us. I never thought I’d live to see such dark days. And then Francis’ embrace of all things Covid was the capper…..
You can't stop the mass conversion to The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I'm EO and looking into RC for *reasons*. I've learned so much in the past few months, including that I held a number of untrue ideas about RC.
I want to see V1 as legit. I want to see the papacy, as it currently is defined as the real deal, but I simply can't accept it. It's like a schism in my heart, honestly.
Anyway, I appreciate the dialogue.
makes perfect sense to have a spiritual emperor... for sure
unfortunately, Christ poked all kinds of holes in that... he went counter to "perfect sense" and tradition
maybe the Spirit is meant to be the leader and guide? the "streams" come from the Spirit?
Erick mentions "The Lost Christianies" by Phillip Jenkins, but when I search for the book I get Bart Ehrman as the author. The closest I can find from Phillip Jenkins is "The Lost History of Christianity." Can someone clearify? -Thanks in advance.
I'm sorry. It is "The Lost History of Christianity". I confused the two
@@Erick_Ybarra Thank you for clarifying. Your interview was great by the way.
I’ve been looking into the Catholic Church for about a year now, and honestly my biggest hurdle has been the notion of re-justification. All I’ve ever known is fundamentalism and evangelicalism (mostly evangelicalism), and singing songs with phrases like “Jesus paid it all” and “My sins, not in part but the whole, were nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more.” I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, but it is very difficult for me NOT to believe that when Jesus said “It is finished” that He completely and perfectly redeemed a particular people, all those that the Father gave to him. My mind has just been completely steeped in this way of thinking. I am open to the very real possibility that I am wrong, but it would take a very strong argument to convince me otherwise, considering Gods perfect foreknowledge and certain Biblical texts. Any help would be appreciated, but I’ve heard all or most objections before.
@DonnyBlips Believe it or not, I have that book. Only read about half though.
I should add, I would choose the Catholic Church over the Orthodox. I love the idea of the papacy, and the papacy down through the ages acts like a backbone, holding everything together. I also love the idea of a living magisterium that can teach and also clarify. Also, I do believe that the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 makes the most sense and that Protestant attempts to explain it away fail.
It is wrong. You can lose salvation. If you went and you committed an atrocious crime, does salvation mean that person can commit that crime as long as he believes in jesus? Think about it. So can you go and sin Monday through Saturday and then go to church and be fine? Because you can’t. Unrepentant sin will make you lose your salvation. That’s all you have to do. Beliefs are powerful, but they’re not always true. This one just requires some logic. It’s not about listening to objections. You’re holding on to cognitive dissonance there.
@@ntmn8444 Every point here has been dealt with ad nauseum, and doesn’t factor in predestination, the new nature of those truly in Christ, God’s perfect foreknowledge, etc.
@Delbert One of the best books I can recommend on the subject of justification is Robert Sungenis’ “Not by faith alone.” One of the likely reasons you’re having trouble with re-justification has to do with your view of the atonement. This is probably at the core of what’s going on. I’d be happy to talk more about it with you.
Comparing the curb appeal of RC vs EO is unfair. Not apples to apples. RC is >5x the size of EO. Not to mention our Americanized mainstream Catholicism in the U.S. is so much larger than the immigrant diasporic EO churches we have here. You would expect to find a more serious, intimate, and otherworldly experience in a foreign community containing a highly-committed self-selected educated class of converts. This is like comparing a Trad TLM community with mainstream novus ordo Catholicism. They are not guilty of our kind of mistakes because they have not been victims of our kind of success.
All of this and what we are going thru has been prophesied by countless mystics, Saints and Marian apparitions centuries before. This is no surprise!! Even pope Francis by St Francis of Assisi.
There will be a restoration and triumph of the church.
Does anyone know what Anglican ordinairiate book he's talking about?
It’s called “Divine Worship Daily Office” but it’s hard to find because it was just recently updated. My parish sells them at their store, so if you happen to be close to an Ordinariate parish, you could try calling them to see if they have any.
@@bethanyann1060 thank you!
@@VACatholic You’re welcome 😊
I will just say this. The Catholic Church is not the end but a means to the End. Christ ended His life Ministry in the hands of the Roman’s but his End was not there. “I am passing over to the Father.” If we long to find a absolutely pure abode, then, as Christ said, “Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me.” Nobody can deny that “Cross” was Roman and painful to bear. It became the instrument by which one thief wanted to jump ship. And it became the instrument by which the other thief entered into Paradise. For Christ takes our Cross in Rome that we may take His Cross in Paradise: namely, the vision of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Cross of Life. Rome was not chosen to be the “end” of the Christian longing. But rather the medium through which we become virtuous, and long to go nowhere else but “into your hands I commend my spirit.” People who jump ship bypass the very mechanism God ordained unto Eternal Life. My chains are in Rome and though the beasts surround me (as the Psalmist says), yet my eye is turned upwards. Whoever turns the Eye from going upwards has nowhere else to go but downwards. To me, running to any other Church is running from the Cross.
Erick is very underrated and less known than he should be...
Yes Matt, you really should read the Book of Mormon!
Without the ratification of a centralised authority (ie the bishop of Rome), how does one know which ecumenical councils are valid and which are not?
@YAJUN YUAN Can you clarify what you mean by universal representation? Are you referring to the 3 traditional sees of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome? or the expanded Pentarchy of Jerusalem and Constantinople? Or do you mean the episcopal sees that were added even later?
@YAJUN YUAN While Jerusalem had a succession of bishops starting with James, it had no metropolitan of its own until after the First Council of Nicea. Jerusalem's status was later expanded during the Council of Chalcedon, where it was elevated in status to one of the 5 patriarchates. To rephrase my initial question: how does one discern which Ecumenical Councils are valid if, for instance, the Orthodox recognise 7; the Oriental Orthodox recognise just 3; while the Roman Catholics recognise 21? There needs to be a unifying factor beyond the participation of all metropolitans.
@YAJUN YUAN I see what you're saying but I think it's a problematic position to hold. If one were to adhere to that strict definition then there should be no valid Ecumenical Councils after the Council of Ephesus in 431 (as the Persian Church was no longer represented); or after the Council of Chalcedon in 451 (when the Eastern Oriental Church broke away), yet both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox agree on at least 7 Ecumenical Councils as authoritative, up to 787, some 350 years after Ephesus!
Regardless, my point has less to do with the semantics of universal representation and more to do with how one might discern which of the *many* councils-whether synodal or general/ecumenical-are to be rejected or assented to.
The solution which makes the most sense to me is to uphold the councils recognised by Peter and his successors.
They don’t
Is this too simple minded: Jesus breathed on them and said recieve ye the Holy Spirit. So from our perspective the spirit proceeds forth from the son and we know what he has is from the father therefore from the father and the son?