I like how all of the Heathens I have met in person, seen in videos, etc all LOOK like modern day Vikings. It really is awesome. Makes me want to rethink my look as a Greek polytheist.
Except They do offer salvation and Give it and jesusatan Devil controlled Antichristos doesn't in truth. Cultianity has no salvation or heaven or hope truly or life or sense or spiritualness or love etc etc worse. These Gods and Saviors do and have proof of it and are Gods not men like jerzzezz and the jews and Arabs later on. Apollonius and Dionysus/Bacchus are The Saviors and Lord Horus King of kings too.
@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846 all knowing creator creates being (automatically violating its free will) into a evil world knowing that being has a high likelihood of not passing his own judgement, allows being to be continually decieved according to plan, and at the end of time (for the tiny being) judges them according to what he already knew they'd do, inflicts torture on them without end. Not arbitrary at all.
@milktea-xb6gq absolutely incorrect as usual. Typical moron who never actually studied Christianity. God yall are so embarrassing to listen to...some mindless parroting
I'm not a theologist and don't have more than a passing interest in any organized religion (ex non denominational christian/mormon, turned agnostic) but I just want to comment on how much respect I have for the two of you for this debate. It's always so interesting to watch knowledgeable people have discussions about things they care about, not that I really understood most of what y'all were talking about. Either way props to both of you!
Mormons arent theist. The Mormon 😈 is satanist luciferian anti theist occultist self idolism and Masonic fraud and suitheism anti God wayyyy anti that is.
This was a great entry point for me to get to understand your belief system, and your gracious and knowledgeable take down on the issues raised, including the problems of free will (‘Well, that raises another problem…’) were some of the aspects that contributed to my deconversion from Catholicism.
Hey! I think I'm the first view. I love that you get involved in these debates. I'm also Heathen so I love that you're starting this conversation and building up more awareness. Also, your beard is great.
@@OceanKeltoi Have you considered making some shorter videos about Heathenism? More general education things about the religion and world view? I've been playing with the idea of starting up a channel for that kind of thing, but I have no actual TH-cam experience. It'd be nice to get some general information about Heathens out there, especially since I've seen a lot of your debates spend a fair amount of time trying to fill the knowledge gap instead of discussing the differences. (I was hoping to send this as a private message, but I couldn't find an option for that.)
This was one of the more interesting and delightful debates I have seen in a while. I feel like there are some flaws with his arguing but over all it seems much more solid than other Christian's arguments.
He seems to make perfection a subjectively defined term (his frequent remark that it depends on how you define what perfection is) which begs the question; does perfection actually exsist or is it a human construct?
Was there ever a follow up debate? I would love to see that. There were so many points that couldn't be explored more in depth in the given time frame. Ocean you ask the questions I've always had with christianity.
Same cause Odin isnt infalluable and can change god doesnt christians just make their own tapestry of what their god is instead of what is in the biible
Checking through the back catalogue of your great videos. Fantastic to see civil, explorative, and informed debate... As a pagan (Heathen) I do enjoy deep conversation with Christians and other belief systems but too often they end with me going to Hel(l). Full stop. To which I have no real issue 🤷🏻♂️👍🏻
Ocean, (and any interested) I'd like to chat with you about a theory I have regarding a link between abrahamic god and a pantheism deity, have built up quite a bit of information that lead to this idea, not even including personal experience. Also, huge fan of your method of debate!
On the "which outfit will you wear?" analogy, If you truly had free will, you wouldn't be limited by just what's in your wardrobe. Your free will is decided upon which of these situations you have available to you. Not what available situations you want to have. And because there is a limit, that means it is not truly free.
It's seems to me that his idea of God entering into time would sort of be analagous to when a game dev fabricated a large word for many players to act within. That creator may then enter that same world with all the admin rights, but even still there are certain things the admin rights are constrained to for sake of not breaking the game, and the creator may pick and choose at what level they enter into that world even though they may ultimately alter and destroy that entire world from outside of it.
A huge problem with Calvinism is the fact that they rely on awful mistranslations of the New Testament. The Greek word they think means "predestinated" (as in Acts 13:48) τεταγμένοι actually means something more along the lines of "disposed, inclined, prepared, made ready for, made receptive to, etc.", and it comes from a word referring to stationing troops in a land and getting them ready for battle. In other words, the Greek New Testament doesn't actually teach "predestination"; what it actually teaches is that God apparently makes certain people more receptive to the Gospel. Augustin didn't even know Greek and worked on the basis of many faulty and misleading Latin translations, most notably of which being the passage in Romans 5:12, which in Latin got rendered "in quo" (in whom), and in popular modern translations as "because", when in reality the Greek means "upon which" or "whereupon". This mistranslation, among other things, led the Western Church into the horrific and grotesque notion of Original Sin. And misrepresentations of aion led to the belief in "eternal damnation", even though aoinios means "of the age" and the word translated as "damnation" means something more like "correction, pruning". Of course, none of this matters much in the long run since Christianity and Judaism are pretty ridiculous, psychologically toxic, champions of denial, and dismissive of reality. I think there are much better reasons to be a polytheist than to be a monotheist. Some of those reasons weren't covered in this video but my comment has gone on long enough.
Her Blessed Midnight Serenity Kali is supposed to have been before the universe and has been to others previous and future, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that time is not something she's subject to since time is a universal principle/perception. She also is known to wear an assortment of heads on her since she's a god killer. She doesn't require minions to do her bidding and as such, imo, would be more than capable of killing Yahweh and adding yet another head to her collection.
Well it would make sense since Yahweh is just the chief deity of the ancient Semitic pantheon. Over time he became the Abrahamic god and the ancient Semitic tribes stopped worshiping the other gods in their pantheon. The Abrahamic god is just Yahweh, an ancient Semitic pagan god lol.
@@BlackFlagHeathen Yahweh is not the chief god. His father is. Monotheism in my opinion is a mistake that has led to a lot of human suffering. Yahweh was appointed by his father to be the chief god for Israel. What happened was that the mistake occurred after the Babylonian Captivity. What Judaism did was over correct for a mistake. Then Christianity inherited that mistake on steroids and when they got power they banned the worship of the other Divine Ancestors. I believe that Yahweh and the other gods are trying to help us to see the mistake. So we can have a better world with tolerance and respect for other faiths.
No Elohim doesn't mean "god" or "gods"?. It's a verb or an adverb. That word elawhem means power or judge or instigator or controller. It can be used for god or for people or for animals or for angels or for the moon or for the stars or for trees. It says nada zip about god/gods. Elahyim on the contrary means god but one God not many. It means 'God Doing lots of stuff.' Elahyim is The Broader expansion of the same word Elah which means God also but that word means 'God does' or 'God Acts.' The only way for that word Elahyim to be plural is the English rendering I have used that says 'Elahyims' like Elahyim and Elahyim and Elahyim and Elahyim. So Elahyims for Gods but it's not Hebrew correct. It's not a legit Hebrew or biblical word. אלוהים vs אלהים the waw ו can mean the difference between those two words. With one is a verb thus titlic, and the other is noun proper. elohim =/= Elahyim Elahyims or Elahs for Gods and that is English rendering or innovation not tied to the Hebrew exactly, but it complements it with a modernized usage. There's only one word that in Hebrew says Gods and that Word is Elim. Elimah means 'Gods do this'. Elimahyim means 'Gods doing lots of tasks'. But, these two words are Non-biblical thus non hebraic, but they're Hebrew words. Thus this is Alienated to you and your case. {That doesn't mean there ain't true aka Extern Mono influence on yahweh and also Poly Influence on yahweh as well as genesis 1; because there is from MRDK and Other Elahyims leaving their mark on yahweh and his genesis 1 mythos tale and rest of tanak.}
@@charliejackson5492That is false. "ʾĔlōhīm" refers to a deity or multiple deities, depending on the grammatical context. Within the narrative of the myth _Bərēʾšīṯ,_ it refers to multiple deities, as shown by the grammatical context, because in both "Old Testament" and even the "New Testament" there is no idea of monotheism, only monoltarism.
I definitely think Open Theism is more scripturally sound. The Hebrew Bible does tend to present YHWH as a linear temporal being who reacts to new information and circumstances as they're presented to him e.g. haggling with Abraham over the fate of Sodom. But like Ocean said, positing YHWH as a linear temporal being subject to time means he no longer fits the Ontological definition of God as "that, than which nothing greater can be conceived". Which does bring him closer to the level of what Jon calls the "small g" gods. Not the Ground Being of existence but just another being WITHIN existence. If Jon and other Open Theists are okay with making that trade off, more power to them. But I'm not sure they realise that's what they're doing.
@@charliejackson5492 I apologize for any disrespect, no matter how unintentional. That said, I think if there's going to be any fruitful dialogue between monotheists and polytheists, both sides are going to have to admit that they’re each using the word "God“ to refer to two radically different concepts and substitute some more precise terminology. Otherwise, we’re endlessly doomed to talk past each other while getting lost in the semantic weeds.
@@PadraigG8 correct you have fake little weak lonely God whose limited in down within the universe animated flat dome World while I have the Many True All Powerful Gods who make all things in several beautiful holy fashions and Whom work separately and overlap. Lords-Ladies-So mine do all and Will all. And Made and End all. While your false little weak limited god who is statueless and Weak. And has flaws gets beaten by people and can't actually hold his own his own self respect. Why is that ? Oh yeah because your fake god idol and his False theism False mono fiasco is all Man made wicked scam and Devilic Controlled Invented Hoax. No offense but love to preach to you. Let me know what you are ready to Repent and open up our and come to The Real EverMighties The Multi Holys.
@@PadraigG8 you guys want to claim God but you guys don't understand God truly one alien that is that's the start. More or Many or Several Are Totaling and Completing.
@@PadraigG8 I understand when it comes to colts and crazy stuff when you use semantics they don't understand how to talk. Like the Devilful and else kullltts like jwitnesses/mormons/sdas and scientologists. Indeed semantics is hell. But with us I applaud you for having theological view. But that's that and then we break off correctly on which God and whether it's one or Many. And Theology Wise with Trueness and Purity it's Poly. Not the false hebraic god but The Holy Ones They EverMighties Whom are The Trues. Jupiteris and Apollo and Neptunis and Lord Bacchus(The Savior and True Christos/Cristus)
I don't understand how you can argue that an egg could by the law of chance spontaneously divide in the womb and go to full term, yet hold that nobody could ever live a life without sin (if you believe in free will)
I memorized stuff. - Jon I would have liked to listened to all this but the kid is killen me with the regurgitated nonsense. I'm sure the last hour was nice.
I really don't get how Christians can see hell as a just result of a free will decision. Let's say somebody forces you to participate in a game they made up: They think of a number from 1 to 10. Then they spread hints on the correct number throughout the world and don't stop other people from spreading hints leading to different numbers. You get some time to gather hints and make a decision based on those hints without any possibility to differentiate between true and false hints. Now when the game is over, you get asked for your number. If it is right, you get a reward and if it is wrong you get tortured. Nobody who isn't completely mental would consider this a decision between reward and torture. Unless you have a safe way to differentiate true from false hints, it is a decision between numbers and therefore a random decision (or at least nothing more than an informed guess). To be a decision between reward and torture you would have to be able to know which number stands for which result.
And I don't get why a loving god should chose this way to seperate between believers and non-believers. Why shouldn't they be allowed to know what they chose when they have to chose? And when they have to, why does damnation have to be the only alternative and why does it have to be eternal? Why shouldn't there be "heaven and rebirth" instead of "heaven and hell"? If you didn't get to the right conclusion, just get your consciousness reset so that you aren't stuck with a specific way to think and try again until you get it. An omnipotent god would be able to create something like that, no matter if you see him in the way of calvinism or open theology.
The hebraic god isn't and flawed and tooo limited on knowledge and can't stop evil. And, his end is only a failure fall again and allows for more deception and sins sins sins sins. Like usual they can't solve the problem they only make more problems. UNLIKE our EverMighties The Real Gods Who Can and do destroy Sin all the time and free people any to all They choose. Life is about over coming sins and proving your piety and spiritualness of your body and soul and mind and breath and deeds. Cultianity fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails this every time upon time. This and lots of other reasons why and what is that millions and millions are leaving and going to leave and have left and abandoned the darkness jesusatan fraud hoax and Cultianity gasspell bad bad bad ANTIGod scam From Hell scam it is
I still have yet to read The Case for Polytheism by Steve Dillon, but the best arguments I myself have thought up in favor of polytheism are as follows: (presupposing the argument about whether or not divine beings exist, and supposing that we conclude yes a god or gods do exist) in no particular order: 1. If God is perfect and self-sufficient, then why did he create the universe, why does he seek to be worshiped, and why would he need for people to obey him? 2. If God was uncreated, the first being, or prime mover (whatever you wanna call him), then why did Tehom, Chaos, and other beings pre-exist creation? And why does the Bible have two creation narratives, one being the divine battle against the sea dragon? 3. The philosophical Problem of Evil has weight against the existence of a perfectly good, omniscient, omnipotent God; but it lends itself very well to arguing in favor of the existence of other gods, some of which would be evil, which handily explains evil in the universe. 4. The nature of the universe dictates that every thing exists in multiples (at the very least pairs). Name any object and there is never only one of its kind. A planet is one among many. A tree is one among many. A mountain is one among many. Why then should there only be a single God? (At the very least there are two as in Zoroastrianism.) 5. History, philology, archeology, Biblical text criticism, etc. shows that all the modern religions originated from polytheism. [Judaism from Canaanite, Babylonian, and Persian religion. Buddhism from Hinduism. Christianity looking at Judaism through the lens of Greek religion and philosophy]. There's nothing phenomenally special or extraordinary about the monotheistic faiths as they evolved out of older, pre-existing, polytheistic traditions. Yahweh used to have a wife and himself was the result of the convergence of El and Ba'al. Some lesser reasons: - The Bible is filled with inconsistencies Knowing the name of Yahweh? Exo. 6:3 [P text] vs Gen. 4:26, Gen. 15:7-8 [J text] contradictionsinthebible.com/ - God changes (Gen. 6:6, 1 Sam. 2:30-31, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10) as opposed to (Num. 23:19, 1 Sam. 15:29) - God’s prophecies don’t always come true (2 Kings 3:18-19 vs 27, Ezek. 26:12 vs 29:17-18) - God is actually very anthropomorphic (Gen. 3:8-10, Gen. 16:13-14, Gen. 18:1-8, Gen. 32:28-30, Exo. 33:11) - God creates evil (Isa. 45:7) - The Bible admits polytheism (in the form of henotheism): Gen. 1:26, Gen. 3:22, Gen. 11:7-8, Exo. 12:12, Exo. 15:11, Num. 21:29, Num. 33:4, Deut. 4:19, Deut. 32:8-9, Deut. 32:43, Judges 11:24, 1 Sam. 6:5, Psalm 104:3-9 equates Yahweh with Baal Hosea 2:16
Multiple AllPowerful Gods is better and completing and True and Untouchable to all today who like this and worse far worse. Our EverMighties Prove all hebraics are absolutely fools and fools and worse. And shames them all and saddens them and Forces them to Repent.
For a variety of purposes, from being a prophet and/or messianic figure to being a moral example for others to achieve. You've probably been brainwashed by your pastor(s)/priest into believing that Jesus was there only because of Adam's transgression to be a substitute (ie the infamous and harmful idea of penal substitutionary atonement).
If God can see all futures, and humans have free will, and humans have the ability to shape the future based on their choices, are humans the true gods? God in that case would just be a aspect of humanity, and god would not exist it would just be humans
It's so strange to have so many interpret "God" and branches of "Christianity" differently. I always hated the thought thay "God" knows and sees all. If thats true, how can we sin if it knows what we're going to do? How can anything be considered a sin? Its just the next step in ones life thats already known about. Why would they need to apologize for something they already knew God knew? Then this, putting limitations on said entity opens up to multiple deities. I'll get better with my words as I learn more about this.
If the Christian God can have regret, then he either cannot be all knowing, or he cannot be all powerful. If he was all knowing, he would have known that he would not have liked that situation. If he was all powerful, he would have been able to stop it from the beginning.
I think "open theism" is ridiculous if for no other reason than the fact that so much of Christianity (no matter which sect you look at) relies heavily on and came from Greek religion and philosophy. Christianity is essentially the same thing Philo did, which is to look at Judaism through the lens of Greek ideas. It's arguable that Gnosticism is the original authentic Christianity if ever there were such a thing. Whereas the apocalyptic thing that gets mistaken as "original Christianity" was a very similar and closely-related sect but was more related to the Essenes and the Enochian traditions. It's also well-established that the Gospels and Acts were heavily reliant on Homeric tales and other Greek mythological sources. th-cam.com/video/tozott4Q5ok/w-d-xo.html
I think free will is not real do we have free will in our taste in food do we have free will in our preferences no do we have free will to decide weather or not we get up in the morning nope we dont it makes much more sense dor multiple gods to exist considering how complex and nusnced the world is
I personally find free will or free choice intellectually unsustainable, and so I find open theism intellectually unsustainable also. You could argue of course that I'm simply not intellectual enough although my response would be that if the Christian God can't communicate with somebody as simple as me then he must be a particularly poor communicator.
Im very early in the video but I’d say this idea of open theism seems to stem from a believe in biblical inerrancy in biblical and Christian faith. The whole question can be answered perfectly answered by just understanding that the Bible is not a book but a library written by many people at many times and the theology in the Bible changes as time progresses. Early in the Hebrew Bible you have a god this is absolutely not omniscient. He is like any other ancient near eastern god in that way. But as time goes on and the theology of the ancient Israelites evolves you get a god more and more omniscient until you get to the New Testament and have a fully omniscient, omnipotent and platonic idea of god. I can tell the gentleman arguing for open theism does like this but platonic philosophy is the foundation that Christian theology is built on. From the nature of god to the identification of Jesus as the logos the New Testament is the resolution of an ancient near eastern storm god narrative with a platonic understanding of god.
I feel the level of understanding and thoroughness is so shallow. This guy refers to christian culture and text but the rejects the closest reliable sources from the lineage of the apostles themselves! The line of apostles compiled the bible!!!
It’s cute you believe history is that simple. If you actually study the history of early Christianity honestly, you’ll learn it’s much more messy and convoluted than just the neat, rather naive Apostolic succession you were probably taught.
@@atheistechoes9594or after. 😊 I know that it's invented in the false vacuum of the Middle East is in a very crappy area of Palestina Judea as a reaction cult and mysticism fake. 😊 This is one of the 100 kajillion other reasons why Christianity is false it's unbelievably fake no one comes across it until 2000 years ago yeah and no one even saw it as funny until 1500 and that's why millions are leaving it now because of all these reasons and more. No it is deception upon deception it is auntie things and it came long after the world was around and it will be gone long long ago when a real end happens which is out them and anti them.
I'm willing to entertain the possibility of Open Theism, but it doesn't seem to mesh well with the otherwise straightforward evangelical doctrine that Jon is advancing. The weird thing is that the traditional Trinitarian view basically solves the problem of whether God is inside or outside of time. The Father remains outside of time, but Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) are within time. This is one of the main reasons that the Trinity doctrine was even established! Often Christians, and especially YECs, will take the position that any time you see God or the Angel of the Lord on Earth in the Old Testament, it's actually Jesus. I'm not even a Trinitarian but I am happy to accept that it avoids this particular problem. Also his microphone is clipping and it's unpleasant
He's saying his god kind of ran a bath and then got in it (the bath being a time bound reality) or that he painted a picture and then stepped into it. The problem is that the whole thing is paradoxical. The Christian god has limited himself by a boundary of his own design:: the walls of the bath or the frame if the picture. So the omnipotent god has made a rock so heavy that he can't lift it up. 🤔 Neither can God trace the chains of causality into the future. So the Christian god is no longer omnipotent and no longer omniscient. He is no longer the Christian god right there. He is - as you have pointed out - a little 'g', if you insist on trying to believe in him. I do not in any 'Christian' sense. I accept that there will be a Yaweh of the multiverse, but I do not equate the Yaweh of the multiverse with a Yaweh of the Bible or with what I consider to be anti-science.
You confuse "all powerful" in der some logical way (can work against particular logic) with some physical sense... He is perfect in a Moral sense, but not Harry Potter of stupid Fantasies...
To focus on one random little point in here; On the capitalisation of 'god', in isolation, I generally don't (beyond my annoying habit of over-capitalisation). In a discussion with Jews and Christians who don't like to call their god Yahweh or Jehovah (or any other name), I tend to match them. So if the Christian I'm talking to is writing "God", and I'm writing a response, I'll write it with a capital G for the name, and lower case g for the role.
Guys, I am not sure how do you believe or can believe at all in the some kind of serpant literally in you paradigm:) But your way of discussing things respectfully is awesome!!!
If im understanding right, you cant keep sinning and then rely on God to save you because youre a Christian. You have to kinda mean it. And yeah, we will forever be sinners, but that notion youre knowingly okay with sinning cuz God has your back just doesnt sound right. And i feel the whole if God makes a choice for you, can you make a different choice is a logical fallacy. Pretty much every human isnt going to be in a situation where God is going to personally talk to you. And if he is.....................Im backing away from that person slowly. I believe people can get incinations about what God wants, but its probably not going to be down to your clothing choice. If you need Gods advice for something that simple, just go to the scripture and dont demand God map out every little thing in your life. Theres too much about this free will even above God that requires knowledge of the Divine we have no idea about.
My Gods are not bound to space or tome or matter. EverMighties mine are beyond and reside in universe as well. They Created the Universe or World and Destroy it all in the End. Roman Religionary (Byz too). My Gloryful Divinities Jupiteris and The Others Get all The Praise and Glory and Honor. I do also with Ra Horus and Set. I'd do the Same for Thor and Odin. As a Religionary i do that. Time is limitation and made prospect. As is material and space. And that is so. Atoms can be made and destroyed. That's easy. Universe is forever in the sense it planned by The Forever Ones or They Eternal Ones via Lords-Ladies-So or EverMighties. Lords-Ladies-So encompass Thor and Odin and Mine Jupiteris and Venus and Neptunis and Apollo and Ra and Horus and Hathor.
Except that Yahweh is at the mercy of our Many True Real Gods as well as at the mercy of people too. You do realize the Bible has no objective morals it's very subjective and it's not like real scriptures that are after it and before it then actually do give Divine truth that is a certain an absolute not just once but several or multiple times. The Totaling and Theological Max.
@@joenathan8059 so I'm an admittedly new pagan, but in reading the Edda's as it describes the places for afterlife in the Voluspa, only one hall is designed for those that are evil. Hel itself, in my understanding, is the place for the common folk. Farmers and the like. It's peaceful, well tempered and bountiful. Or at the very least neutral in that it's more like you continue living the life you led, but perhaps easier. From my understanding it's not until much later in the prose edda (written by a christian and well after the height of norse paganism) that Hel becomes more synonymous with a bad place.
@Gustavus Mercurius Folkvangr is not the place for "commoners" Folkvanger" or Freya's hall is where the first half of the chosen dead warriors will go, while the other half goes to Odin and his hall Valholl or Valhalla until Ragnarok. Helhiem the realm of Hel, is where the fast majority of the dead will end up, including the Aesir and Vanir, it is not a place of torture the only place where it is even similar to a place of punishment is where souls go to be eaten by Nidhogg the Dragon/Serpent that lives under the world tree after which their entire existence ends and they cease to be. There are other halls in which the dead may end up such as with Njord or Ran halls well if you die at sea and they collect your soul, or you may end up not going to any halls and wonder midguard as a undead, ghost, so on. Or be trapped in your tomb as a Draegr. I have no idea where you are getting your info but you may want to recheck it.
It is not that Biblical God cannot " go to the Future" (He controls Future over all.. in respect to non intelligent objects, etc.), but because He has chosen to give space to free agents He acts in kenosis, suffering with the World, etc. Power is not in all deterministic way of acting, but in the ability to still let His will be done inspite of stupid and evil actions of people!
That is the worst cop out I've ever heard in my life. That is so pathetic and excuse if the heat brick God is all-powerful which he is not then he would not be separated from Evil arguments and he would not have full he'll be stuck with it and he'd be at Holy at fault for it and he would be basically proud of it. If you're going to make that claim then you have to say he's not involved in good stuff that happens in the world too but it's same false dishonest viewpoint you have to admit that he's not good either. Isaiah 45.7 says it all.
@@charliejackson5492 it is much complex than we can understand on the level of some common logic only...!!! He is good, only His goodness probably much more sophisticated than we can grasp... Not all things that bring us pain are evil, think about that!
@@sergkapitan2578 Yahweh can't escape logic he gets defeated by it every single time it's not you're starting out of your ass with a modernized twist that isn't even philosophical or even good. He's evil and proud of it. Get over it. U been deeply DECEIVED.
God is outside of time and space. Inside time, from his view everything is already happened, that's why he says in his word that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. Open theism is a joke.
Yahweh is still more powerful than Odin since in the Ragnarok story, Odin dies and Yahweh never dies. Even if Odin could look into the future and Yahweh cannot, Yahweh is eternal and Odin is not.
Jon surprises me, as most open theists would argue that God is omniscient but that the future does not exist. Jon seems knowledgeable about open theism as theology but not as a philosophical idea. Open theism is a theory about time. I’m not an open theist but flirted with it for years.
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I like how all of the Heathens I have met in person, seen in videos, etc all LOOK like modern day Vikings. It really is awesome. Makes me want to rethink my look as a Greek polytheist.
Greek Polytheism is Awesome! Time to Grow your beard Aristotle haha Heil!
Just get suuuuuuuuuper buff. Oil up. And become perfectly symmetrical. It's easy.
@@60sspider-man29 Already on it! I lost 70 pounds in a year and now I hope to muscle up! We'll see how it goes by the end of this year!
@@aristosbywater9605 Oh wow! I was meming but that's awesome! Keep up the good work my friend!
Are you still Greek polytheist?
This Guy: Jesus is better than the other Gods because he offers salvation and the others don't
*Dionysos, Osiris, and Krishna have entered the chat*
Except They do offer salvation and Give it and jesusatan Devil controlled Antichristos doesn't in truth.
Cultianity has no salvation or heaven or hope truly or life or sense or spiritualness or love etc etc worse.
These Gods and Saviors do and have proof of it and are Gods not men like jerzzezz and the jews and Arabs later on.
Apollonius and Dionysus/Bacchus are The Saviors and Lord Horus King of kings too.
Other Gods don’t need to offer salvation, seeing as they haven’t arbitrarily damned their people.
@@RotorMunkeynope. It's not arbitrary nice try though
@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846 all knowing creator creates being (automatically violating its free will) into a evil world knowing that being has a high likelihood of not passing his own judgement, allows being to be continually decieved according to plan, and at the end of time (for the tiny being) judges them according to what he already knew they'd do, inflicts torture on them without end.
Not arbitrary at all.
@milktea-xb6gq absolutely incorrect as usual. Typical moron who never actually studied Christianity. God yall are so embarrassing to listen to...some mindless parroting
There is a Calvinist somewhere who’s head just exploded... 😂
"God knew it was gonna happen tho" I died laughing
Made me giggle. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm not a theologist and don't have more than a passing interest in any organized religion (ex non denominational christian/mormon, turned agnostic) but I just want to comment on how much respect I have for the two of you for this debate. It's always so interesting to watch knowledgeable people have discussions about things they care about, not that I really understood most of what y'all were talking about. Either way props to both of you!
Mormons arent theist. The Mormon 😈 is satanist luciferian anti theist occultist self idolism and Masonic fraud and suitheism anti God wayyyy anti that is.
This was a great entry point for me to get to understand your belief system, and your gracious and knowledgeable take down on the issues raised, including the problems of free will (‘Well, that raises another problem…’) were some of the aspects that contributed to my deconversion from Catholicism.
Hey! I think I'm the first view. I love that you get involved in these debates. I'm also Heathen so I love that you're starting this conversation and building up more awareness. Also, your beard is great.
Glad to see a fellow Heathen in the scene!
@@OceanKeltoi Have you considered making some shorter videos about Heathenism? More general education things about the religion and world view? I've been playing with the idea of starting up a channel for that kind of thing, but I have no actual TH-cam experience. It'd be nice to get some general information about Heathens out there, especially since I've seen a lot of your debates spend a fair amount of time trying to fill the knowledge gap instead of discussing the differences. (I was hoping to send this as a private message, but I couldn't find an option for that.)
Yup, I think that's my obvious next step. I've gotten a lot of requests for that, it's high time that I do it.
@OceanKeltoi and five years later, you have a wealth of content. Thank you for the time and effort you have put into all of this.
Wow, Jon has brought us a full show of theological gymnastics.
I love this debate, both sides were extremely respectful.
This was one of the more interesting and delightful debates I have seen in a while. I feel like there are some flaws with his arguing but over all it seems much more solid than other Christian's arguments.
He seems to make perfection a subjectively defined term (his frequent remark that it depends on how you define what perfection is) which begs the question; does perfection actually exsist or is it a human construct?
Good talk, nice to see an honest interlocutor on the other side of the talk.
Was there ever a follow up debate? I would love to see that. There were so many points that couldn't be explored more in depth in the given time frame. Ocean you ask the questions I've always had with christianity.
I'd rather follow Odin than Jon's god. Flat out. You made him look foolish (just in your super nice conversational method).
Same cause Odin isnt infalluable and can change god doesnt christians just make their own tapestry of what their god is instead of what is in the biible
Id rather worship Ma'at godess of Truth. Even though im an atheist she seems reasonable and honorable
@@atheistechoes9594 hey atheo-pagan is a thing, could be good for gits and shiggles
Same is rather worship Ra or Demeter than God
If we have to accept Salvation in order to avoid Hell, then we have no more "free will" than a person being tortured to make them confess.
Checking through the back catalogue of your great videos. Fantastic to see civil, explorative, and informed debate... As a pagan (Heathen) I do enjoy deep conversation with Christians and other belief systems but too often they end with me going to Hel(l). Full stop. To which I have no real issue 🤷🏻♂️👍🏻
Hel is actually pretty chill.
Nothing in the “Old Testament “ even hints at angels having free will. The opposite is said.
Ocean, (and any interested) I'd like to chat with you about a theory I have regarding a link between abrahamic god and a pantheism deity, have built up quite a bit of information that lead to this idea, not even including personal experience.
Also, huge fan of your method of debate!
On the "which outfit will you wear?" analogy, If you truly had free will, you wouldn't be limited by just what's in your wardrobe. Your free will is decided upon which of these situations you have available to you. Not what available situations you want to have. And because there is a limit, that means it is not truly free.
It's seems to me that his idea of God entering into time would sort of be analagous to when a game dev fabricated a large word for many players to act within. That creator may then enter that same world with all the admin rights, but even still there are certain things the admin rights are constrained to for sake of not breaking the game, and the creator may pick and choose at what level they enter into that world even though they may ultimately alter and destroy that entire world from outside of it.
A huge problem with Calvinism is the fact that they rely on awful mistranslations of the New Testament.
The Greek word they think means "predestinated" (as in Acts 13:48) τεταγμένοι actually means something more along the lines of "disposed, inclined, prepared, made ready for, made receptive to, etc.", and it comes from a word referring to stationing troops in a land and getting them ready for battle. In other words, the Greek New Testament doesn't actually teach "predestination"; what it actually teaches is that God apparently makes certain people more receptive to the Gospel.
Augustin didn't even know Greek and worked on the basis of many faulty and misleading Latin translations, most notably of which being the passage in Romans 5:12, which in Latin got rendered "in quo" (in whom), and in popular modern translations as "because", when in reality the Greek means "upon which" or "whereupon". This mistranslation, among other things, led the Western Church into the horrific and grotesque notion of Original Sin. And misrepresentations of aion led to the belief in "eternal damnation", even though aoinios means "of the age" and the word translated as "damnation" means something more like "correction, pruning".
Of course, none of this matters much in the long run since Christianity and Judaism are pretty ridiculous, psychologically toxic, champions of denial, and dismissive of reality.
I think there are much better reasons to be a polytheist than to be a monotheist. Some of those reasons weren't covered in this video but my comment has gone on long enough.
Her Blessed Midnight Serenity Kali is supposed to have been before the universe and has been to others previous and future, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that time is not something she's subject to since time is a universal principle/perception. She also is known to wear an assortment of heads on her since she's a god killer. She doesn't require minions to do her bidding and as such, imo, would be more than capable of killing Yahweh and adding yet another head to her collection.
In the book of Genesis it does say the gods created the Heavens and the Earth. Elohim is a plural form for god. It means gods.
Well it would make sense since Yahweh is just the chief deity of the ancient Semitic pantheon. Over time he became the Abrahamic god and the ancient Semitic tribes stopped worshiping the other gods in their pantheon. The Abrahamic god is just Yahweh, an ancient Semitic pagan god lol.
@@BlackFlagHeathen Yahweh is not the chief god. His father is. Monotheism in my opinion is a mistake that has led to a lot of human suffering. Yahweh was appointed by his father to be the chief god for Israel. What happened was that the mistake occurred after the Babylonian Captivity. What Judaism did was over correct for a mistake. Then Christianity inherited that mistake on steroids and when they got power they banned the worship of the other Divine Ancestors. I believe that Yahweh and the other gods are trying to help us to see the mistake. So we can have a better world with tolerance and respect for other faiths.
No Elohim doesn't mean "god" or "gods"?.
It's a verb or an adverb. That word elawhem means power or judge or instigator or controller. It can be used for god or for people or for animals or for angels or for the moon or for the stars or for trees. It says nada zip about god/gods.
Elahyim on the contrary means god but one God not many.
It means 'God Doing lots of stuff.'
Elahyim is The Broader expansion of the same word Elah which means God also but that word means 'God does' or 'God Acts.'
The only way for that word Elahyim to be plural is the English rendering I have used that says 'Elahyims' like Elahyim and Elahyim and Elahyim and Elahyim. So Elahyims for Gods but it's not Hebrew correct. It's not a legit Hebrew or biblical word. אלוהים vs אלהים the waw ו can mean the difference between those two words. With one is a verb thus titlic, and the other is noun proper.
elohim =/= Elahyim
Elahyims or Elahs for Gods and that is English rendering or innovation not tied to the Hebrew exactly, but it complements it with a modernized usage.
There's only one word that in Hebrew says Gods and that Word is Elim.
Elimah means 'Gods do this'.
Elimahyim means 'Gods doing lots of tasks'.
But, these two words are Non-biblical thus non hebraic, but they're Hebrew words. Thus this is Alienated to you and your case.
{That doesn't mean there ain't true aka Extern Mono influence on yahweh and also Poly Influence on yahweh as well as genesis 1; because there is from MRDK and Other Elahyims leaving their mark on yahweh and his genesis 1 mythos tale and rest of tanak.}
@@charliejackson5492That is false. "ʾĔlōhīm" refers to a deity or multiple deities, depending on the grammatical context.
Within the narrative of the myth _Bərēʾšīṯ,_ it refers to multiple deities, as shown by the grammatical context, because in both "Old Testament" and even the "New Testament" there is no idea of monotheism, only monoltarism.
@@Dice_roller absolutely not
Jon Singleton is now Calvinist and rejects open theism
Amazing
Ocean wiped the floor with plaid shirt
I definitely think Open Theism is more scripturally sound. The Hebrew Bible does tend to present YHWH as a linear temporal being who reacts to new information and circumstances as they're presented to him e.g. haggling with Abraham over the fate of Sodom.
But like Ocean said, positing YHWH as a linear temporal being subject to time means he no longer fits the Ontological definition of God as "that, than which nothing greater can be conceived". Which does bring him closer to the level of what Jon calls the "small g" gods. Not the Ground Being of existence but just another being WITHIN existence.
If Jon and other Open Theists are okay with making that trade off, more power to them. But I'm not sure they realise that's what they're doing.
Who's the small g gods.
Ours aren't Theyre The Big Gs The Great and Glorious Forever Gods They Gods of/Over Forever and Ever.
@@charliejackson5492 I apologize for any disrespect, no matter how unintentional.
That said, I think if there's going to be any fruitful dialogue between monotheists and polytheists, both sides are going to have to admit that they’re each using the word "God“ to refer to two radically different concepts and substitute some more precise terminology. Otherwise, we’re endlessly doomed to talk past each other while getting lost in the semantic weeds.
@@PadraigG8 correct you have fake little weak lonely God whose limited in down within the universe animated flat dome World while I have the Many True All Powerful Gods who make all things in several beautiful holy fashions and Whom work separately and overlap.
Lords-Ladies-So mine do all and Will all. And Made and End all.
While your false little weak limited god who is statueless and Weak.
And has flaws gets beaten by people and can't actually hold his own his own self respect. Why is that ?
Oh yeah because your fake god idol and his False theism False mono fiasco is all Man made wicked scam and Devilic Controlled Invented Hoax. No offense but love to preach to you.
Let me know what you are ready to Repent and open up our and come to The Real EverMighties The Multi Holys.
@@PadraigG8 you guys want to claim God but you guys don't understand God truly one alien that is that's the start. More or Many or Several Are Totaling and Completing.
@@PadraigG8 I understand when it comes to colts and crazy stuff when you use semantics they don't understand how to talk.
Like the Devilful and else kullltts like jwitnesses/mormons/sdas and scientologists. Indeed semantics is hell.
But with us I applaud you for having theological view.
But that's that and then we break off correctly on which God and whether it's one or Many. And Theology Wise with Trueness and Purity it's Poly. Not the false hebraic god but The Holy Ones They EverMighties Whom are The Trues.
Jupiteris and Apollo and Neptunis and Lord Bacchus(The Savior and True Christos/Cristus)
I don't understand how you can argue that an egg could by the law of chance spontaneously divide in the womb and go to full term, yet hold that nobody could ever live a life without sin (if you believe in free will)
This whole debate is going right over that guy's head.
How could they have a choice if they didnt know food from evil
I would like to see Jon talk with a Christo Pagan.
That would be an awesome debate
Christos is a pagan or Religionary word. Anti Christian in truth. Like jesus guy in truth is Antichristos.
I memorized stuff.
- Jon
I would have liked to listened to all this but the kid is killen me with the regurgitated nonsense. I'm sure the last hour was nice.
Foreknowledge and prophesy in my own mind are most surely dependent on a deterministic world view.
So God’s not omniscient? Did Jesus not tell Peter he would deny him three times before the roaster crows and then Peter did exactly that .
I really don't get how Christians can see hell as a just result of a free will decision.
Let's say somebody forces you to participate in a game they made up: They think of a number from 1 to 10. Then they spread hints on the correct number throughout the world and don't stop other people from spreading hints leading to different numbers. You get some time to gather hints and make a decision based on those hints without any possibility to differentiate between true and false hints. Now when the game is over, you get asked for your number. If it is right, you get a reward and if it is wrong you get tortured. Nobody who isn't completely mental would consider this a decision between reward and torture. Unless you have a safe way to differentiate true from false hints, it is a decision between numbers and therefore a random decision (or at least nothing more than an informed guess). To be a decision between reward and torture you would have to be able to know which number stands for which result.
And I don't get why a loving god should chose this way to seperate between believers and non-believers. Why shouldn't they be allowed to know what they chose when they have to chose? And when they have to, why does damnation have to be the only alternative and why does it have to be eternal? Why shouldn't there be "heaven and rebirth" instead of "heaven and hell"? If you didn't get to the right conclusion, just get your consciousness reset so that you aren't stuck with a specific way to think and try again until you get it. An omnipotent god would be able to create something like that, no matter if you see him in the way of calvinism or open theology.
If god is all powerful then he should be able to know everything
The hebraic god isn't and flawed and tooo limited on knowledge and can't stop evil. And, his end is only a failure fall again and allows for more deception and sins sins sins sins.
Like usual they can't solve the problem they only make more problems.
UNLIKE our EverMighties The Real Gods Who Can and do destroy Sin all the time and free people any to all They choose.
Life is about over coming sins and proving your piety and spiritualness of your body and soul and mind and breath and deeds.
Cultianity fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails this every time upon time.
This and lots of other reasons why and what is that millions and millions are leaving and going to leave and have left and abandoned the darkness jesusatan fraud hoax and Cultianity gasspell bad bad bad ANTIGod scam From Hell scam it is
I still have yet to read The Case for Polytheism by Steve Dillon, but the best arguments I myself have thought up in favor of polytheism are as follows:
(presupposing the argument about whether or not divine beings exist, and supposing that we conclude yes a god or gods do exist)
in no particular order:
1. If God is perfect and self-sufficient, then why did he create the universe, why does he seek to be worshiped, and why would he need for people to obey him?
2. If God was uncreated, the first being, or prime mover (whatever you wanna call him), then why did Tehom, Chaos, and other beings pre-exist creation? And why does the Bible have two creation narratives, one being the divine battle against the sea dragon?
3. The philosophical Problem of Evil has weight against the existence of a perfectly good, omniscient, omnipotent God; but it lends itself very well to arguing in favor of the existence of other gods, some of which would be evil, which handily explains evil in the universe.
4. The nature of the universe dictates that every thing exists in multiples (at the very least pairs). Name any object and there is never only one of its kind. A planet is one among many. A tree is one among many. A mountain is one among many. Why then should there only be a single God? (At the very least there are two as in Zoroastrianism.)
5. History, philology, archeology, Biblical text criticism, etc. shows that all the modern religions originated from polytheism. [Judaism from Canaanite, Babylonian, and Persian religion. Buddhism from Hinduism. Christianity looking at Judaism through the lens of Greek religion and philosophy]. There's nothing phenomenally special or extraordinary about the monotheistic faiths as they evolved out of older, pre-existing, polytheistic traditions. Yahweh used to have a wife and himself was the result of the convergence of El and Ba'al.
Some lesser reasons:
- The Bible is filled with inconsistencies
Knowing the name of Yahweh? Exo. 6:3 [P text] vs Gen. 4:26, Gen. 15:7-8 [J text]
contradictionsinthebible.com/
- God changes (Gen. 6:6, 1 Sam. 2:30-31, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10) as opposed to (Num. 23:19, 1 Sam. 15:29)
- God’s prophecies don’t always come true (2 Kings 3:18-19 vs 27, Ezek. 26:12 vs 29:17-18)
- God is actually very anthropomorphic (Gen. 3:8-10, Gen. 16:13-14, Gen. 18:1-8, Gen. 32:28-30, Exo. 33:11)
- God creates evil (Isa. 45:7)
- The Bible admits polytheism (in the form of henotheism):
Gen. 1:26, Gen. 3:22, Gen. 11:7-8, Exo. 12:12, Exo. 15:11, Num. 21:29, Num. 33:4, Deut. 4:19, Deut. 32:8-9, Deut. 32:43, Judges 11:24, 1 Sam. 6:5,
Psalm 104:3-9 equates Yahweh with Baal
Hosea 2:16
Multiple AllPowerful Gods is better and completing and True and Untouchable to all today who like this and worse far worse.
Our EverMighties Prove all hebraics are absolutely fools and fools and worse. And shames them all and saddens them and Forces them to Repent.
What the name of ur church i live here in Atlanta and very interested in giving ur church a visit
Wait a second if god didnt leave the garden then he just watched them take the fruit without doing anything to.stop them
I’m open to making yhwh part of a pantheon who has a Demi god son
Why do you need Jesus without original sin?
For a variety of purposes, from being a prophet and/or messianic figure to being a moral example for others to achieve.
You've probably been brainwashed by your pastor(s)/priest into believing that Jesus was there only because of Adam's transgression to be a substitute (ie the infamous and harmful idea of penal substitutionary atonement).
I just wanted to see an old video of his
BUT! His description of the christian god sounds like a game developer.
What is perfection?
If God can see all futures, and humans have free will, and humans have the ability to shape the future based on their choices, are humans the true gods?
God in that case would just be a aspect of humanity, and god would not exist it would just be humans
It's so strange to have so many interpret "God" and branches of "Christianity" differently. I always hated the thought thay "God" knows and sees all. If thats true, how can we sin if it knows what we're going to do? How can anything be considered a sin? Its just the next step in ones life thats already known about. Why would they need to apologize for something they already knew God knew? Then this, putting limitations on said entity opens up to multiple deities. I'll get better with my words as I learn more about this.
Jon talks like nick fuentes and I really hate it
hahahahaha oh damn
If the Christian God can have regret, then he either cannot be all knowing, or he cannot be all powerful. If he was all knowing, he would have known that he would not have liked that situation. If he was all powerful, he would have been able to stop it from the beginning.
I think "open theism" is ridiculous if for no other reason than the fact that so much of Christianity (no matter which sect you look at) relies heavily on and came from Greek religion and philosophy.
Christianity is essentially the same thing Philo did, which is to look at Judaism through the lens of Greek ideas. It's arguable that Gnosticism is the original authentic Christianity if ever there were such a thing. Whereas the apocalyptic thing that gets mistaken as "original Christianity" was a very similar and closely-related sect but was more related to the Essenes and the Enochian traditions.
It's also well-established that the Gospels and Acts were heavily reliant on Homeric tales and other Greek mythological sources.
th-cam.com/video/tozott4Q5ok/w-d-xo.html
I think free will is not real do we have free will in our taste in food do we have free will in our preferences no do we have free will to decide weather or not we get up in the morning nope we dont it makes much more sense dor multiple gods to exist considering how complex and nusnced the world is
I personally find free will or free choice intellectually unsustainable, and so I find open theism intellectually unsustainable also. You could argue of course that I'm simply not intellectual enough although my response would be that if the Christian God can't communicate with somebody as simple as me then he must be a particularly poor communicator.
Your schooling him on his book
Im very early in the video but I’d say this idea of open theism seems to stem from a believe in biblical inerrancy in biblical and Christian faith. The whole question can be answered perfectly answered by just understanding that the Bible is not a book but a library written by many people at many times and the theology in the Bible changes as time progresses. Early in the Hebrew Bible you have a god this is absolutely not omniscient. He is like any other ancient near eastern god in that way. But as time goes on and the theology of the ancient Israelites evolves you get a god more and more omniscient until you get to the New Testament and have a fully omniscient, omnipotent and platonic idea of god. I can tell the gentleman arguing for open theism does like this but platonic philosophy is the foundation that Christian theology is built on. From the nature of god to the identification of Jesus as the logos the New Testament is the resolution of an ancient near eastern storm god narrative with a platonic understanding of god.
I feel the level of understanding and thoroughness is so shallow.
This guy refers to christian culture and text but the rejects the closest reliable sources from the lineage of the apostles themselves!
The line of apostles compiled the bible!!!
It’s cute you believe history is that simple. If you actually study the history of early Christianity honestly, you’ll learn it’s much more messy and convoluted than just the neat, rather naive Apostolic succession you were probably taught.
all due respect you let them gossip it would go on for hours
If god is so all powerful than how come. Christianity didn't exist for so long.
Yeah it definately wasnt around during the ancient times of the egyptian greek and norse panthion
@@atheistechoes9594or after. 😊 I know that it's invented in the false vacuum of the Middle East is in a very crappy area of Palestina Judea as a reaction cult and mysticism fake. 😊 This is one of the 100 kajillion other reasons why Christianity is false it's unbelievably fake no one comes across it until 2000 years ago yeah and no one even saw it as funny until 1500 and that's why millions are leaving it now because of all these reasons and more. No it is deception upon deception it is auntie things and it came long after the world was around and it will be gone long long ago when a real end happens which is out them and anti them.
I'm willing to entertain the possibility of Open Theism, but it doesn't seem to mesh well with the otherwise straightforward evangelical doctrine that Jon is advancing.
The weird thing is that the traditional Trinitarian view basically solves the problem of whether God is inside or outside of time. The Father remains outside of time, but Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) are within time. This is one of the main reasons that the Trinity doctrine was even established! Often Christians, and especially YECs, will take the position that any time you see God or the Angel of the Lord on Earth in the Old Testament, it's actually Jesus.
I'm not even a Trinitarian but I am happy to accept that it avoids this particular problem.
Also his microphone is clipping and it's unpleasant
He's saying his god kind of ran a bath and then got in it (the bath being a time bound reality) or that he painted a picture and then stepped into it.
The problem is that the whole thing is paradoxical. The Christian god has limited himself by a boundary of his own design:: the walls of the bath or the frame if the picture.
So the omnipotent god has made a rock so heavy that he can't lift it up. 🤔
Neither can God trace the chains of causality into the future. So the Christian god is no longer omnipotent and no longer omniscient.
He is no longer the Christian god right there. He is - as you have pointed out - a little 'g', if you insist on trying to believe in him.
I do not in any 'Christian' sense.
I accept that there will be a Yaweh of the multiverse, but I do not equate the Yaweh of the multiverse with a Yaweh of the Bible or with what I consider to be anti-science.
You confuse "all powerful" in der some logical way (can work against particular logic) with some physical sense... He is perfect in a Moral sense, but not Harry Potter of stupid Fantasies...
Jon lost. I mean it is clear he has no coherent belief system.... at least not a logical one
God can take back unconditional promises and make them conditional? Ctfo
This guy's a quack.
To focus on one random little point in here; On the capitalisation of 'god', in isolation, I generally don't (beyond my annoying habit of over-capitalisation). In a discussion with Jews and Christians who don't like to call their god Yahweh or Jehovah (or any other name), I tend to match them. So if the Christian I'm talking to is writing "God", and I'm writing a response, I'll write it with a capital G for the name, and lower case g for the role.
Guys, I am not sure how do you believe or can believe at all in the some kind of serpant literally in you paradigm:) But your way of discussing things respectfully is awesome!!!
If im understanding right, you cant keep sinning and then rely on God to save you because youre a Christian. You have to kinda mean it. And yeah, we will forever be sinners, but that notion youre knowingly okay with sinning cuz God has your back just doesnt sound right. And i feel the whole if God makes a choice for you, can you make a different choice is a logical fallacy. Pretty much every human isnt going to be in a situation where God is going to personally talk to you. And if he is.....................Im backing away from that person slowly. I believe people can get incinations about what God wants, but its probably not going to be down to your clothing choice. If you need Gods advice for something that simple, just go to the scripture and dont demand God map out every little thing in your life. Theres too much about this free will even above God that requires knowledge of the Divine we have no idea about.
My Gods are not bound to space or tome or matter.
EverMighties mine are beyond and reside in universe as well.
They Created the Universe or World and Destroy it all in the End.
Roman Religionary (Byz too). My Gloryful Divinities Jupiteris and The Others Get all The Praise and Glory and Honor.
I do also with Ra Horus and Set.
I'd do the Same for Thor and Odin.
As a Religionary i do that.
Time is limitation and made prospect.
As is material and space. And that is so.
Atoms can be made and destroyed. That's easy. Universe is forever in the sense it planned by The Forever Ones or They Eternal Ones via Lords-Ladies-So or EverMighties.
Lords-Ladies-So encompass Thor and Odin and Mine Jupiteris and Venus and Neptunis and Apollo and Ra and Horus and Hathor.
Except that Yahweh is at the mercy of our Many True Real Gods as well as at the mercy of people too. You do realize the Bible has no objective morals it's very subjective and it's not like real scriptures that are after it and before it then actually do give Divine truth that is a certain an absolute not just once but several or multiple times. The Totaling and Theological Max.
I am not sure also if I haven't missed something, but believing in eternal hell is sadistic kind of theology and slander of God!
God doesnt seem very bright
Which one?
False hebraic idol god Yahweh aka Allah yes he's a wicked fool. Like all his evils.
@@sleepyboy9247indeed the lonely fake one false hebraic god yahweh aka allah just yahweh.
Theres a criteria to going to Valhalla in where if you don't die fighting you go to a freezing tundra hel
that would be a mischaracterization.
Hel is not a freezing tundra, Hel is a Good Place, study the Lore My friend,Baldur is in Hel
@@carnival8789 so what is hel like then. And I thought only the dishonored go their
@@joenathan8059 so I'm an admittedly new pagan, but in reading the Edda's as it describes the places for afterlife in the Voluspa, only one hall is designed for those that are evil.
Hel itself, in my understanding, is the place for the common folk. Farmers and the like.
It's peaceful, well tempered and bountiful. Or at the very least neutral in that it's more like you continue living the life you led, but perhaps easier.
From my understanding it's not until much later in the prose edda (written by a christian and well after the height of norse paganism) that Hel becomes more synonymous with a bad place.
@Gustavus Mercurius Folkvangr is not the place for "commoners" Folkvanger" or Freya's hall is where the first half of the chosen dead warriors will go, while the other half goes to Odin and his hall Valholl or Valhalla until Ragnarok. Helhiem the realm of Hel, is where the fast majority of the dead will end up, including the Aesir and Vanir, it is not a place of torture the only place where it is even similar to a place of punishment is where souls go to be eaten by Nidhogg the Dragon/Serpent that lives under the world tree after which their entire existence ends and they cease to be. There are other halls in which the dead may end up such as with Njord or Ran halls well if you die at sea and they collect your soul, or you may end up not going to any halls and wonder midguard as a undead, ghost, so on. Or be trapped in your tomb as a Draegr. I have no idea where you are getting your info but you may want to recheck it.
It is not that Biblical God cannot " go to the Future" (He controls Future over all.. in respect to non intelligent objects, etc.), but because He has chosen to give space to free agents He acts in kenosis, suffering with the World, etc. Power is not in all deterministic way of acting, but in the ability to still let His will be done inspite of stupid and evil actions of people!
That is the worst cop out I've ever heard in my life. That is so pathetic and excuse if the heat brick God is all-powerful which he is not then he would not be separated from Evil arguments and he would not have full he'll be stuck with it and he'd be at Holy at fault for it and he would be basically proud of it.
If you're going to make that claim then you have to say he's not involved in good stuff that happens in the world too but it's same false dishonest viewpoint you have to admit that he's not good either.
Isaiah 45.7 says it all.
@@charliejackson5492 it is much complex than we can understand on the level of some common logic only...!!! He is good, only His goodness probably much more sophisticated than we can grasp... Not all things that bring us pain are evil, think about that!
@@sergkapitan2578 Yahweh can't escape logic he gets defeated by it every single time it's not you're starting out of your ass with a modernized twist that isn't even philosophical or even good. He's evil and proud of it. Get over it. U been deeply DECEIVED.
@@sergkapitan2578 we are goodness and you fell and I am here to save you and pull you out.
@@charliejackson5492 Save your brain from such a cruel God like you promote.... Study solid theology: Stanley Grenz, Roger Olson, James Dunn, etc.
God is outside of time and space. Inside time, from his view everything is already happened, that's why he says in his word that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. Open theism is a joke.
Agreed
Yahweh is still more powerful than Odin since in the Ragnarok story, Odin dies and Yahweh never dies. Even if Odin could look into the future and Yahweh cannot, Yahweh is eternal and Odin is not.
Yahweh doesn't even exist. Oden does.
Yahweh is not more powerful than Odin and Odin survives Ragnarok and Re-establishes His Sovereigndom on the cosmos.
What text claims that Odin survives Ragnarok? Odin is killed by Fenrir according to the myth. @@charliejackson5492
This discussion was really like watching theism be a game of demons and wizards card games..
Wtf~
How is anyone here serious?
Jon surprises me, as most open theists would argue that God is omniscient but that the future does not exist. Jon seems knowledgeable about open theism as theology but not as a philosophical idea. Open theism is a theory about time. I’m not an open theist but flirted with it for years.