Impressed to here Jeri Ryan refusing to join because it makes no sense for the character. It would seem that an actress (with financial incentives to join) was more protective of the franchise integrity than the writers/producers/directors.
You have to wonder why she later renegged and agreed to appear in Star Trek Picard, despite still having never had any interactions with Picard at any point in either of their histories.
@@tituslafrombois1164 I don’t think it was money…she’s got more than enough of that. Creative expression? A desire to done the costume one more time? A chance to share the screen with an absolute legend?
@@joshuapatrick682 any of your answers would have been good reason to appear in Nemesis, yet she chose not to then because it wouldn't have made any sense. How does it now make sense?
I really wish the central tension had been purely political: the Federation has good diplomatic relations with the Romulans for the first time ever after the Dominion War, but the Remans appeal to Picard directly for support so their liberation struggle will succeed. As a representative of the Federation, he can’t support them. But as a representative of humanity, how could he not? Making the Remans villainous rather than just antagonists robs a lot of the drama that TNG and specifically Picard’s character did at their best.
Long story short I wish the plot of Nemesis were used as the basis of a Romulan centered miniseries set after DS9. Provided it's directed by someone who understands Star Trek that is.
I've always felt the central missed opportunity of Nemesis was that they created B-4 instead of resurrecting Lore, a ready-made villain who would have served as an ideal opponent for Data. With Lore in the mix to serve as another villain - perhaps even the ending "twist" villain who has played everyone, Shinzon could have been depicted as a more conflicted and more sympathetic figure, instead of the mind rapist abomination we saw on screen. Data stopping Lore at the cost of his on life would have been so more resonant, and would have invited comparison to Holmes and Moriarty plunging over Reichenbach Falls. Somewhere, I feel like there is an alternate timeline where Nemesis is a great film.
Yeah, this would have made a lot more sense, a new character created for the movie is hardly the enterprise crew's "nemesis" every time lore showed up he always had serious Big Villain Energy and could have easily have been TNG's equivalent to Khan.
Great idea! Shinzon was SO boring and forgettable, but Lore is a truly great character and this really could have been his finest hour. He and Wesley Crusher go way back and they could have made that relationship part of the story. Funny to think that Spiner himself co-wrote this movie and yet failed to think of Lore!
There definitely seemed like a good story there, it just floundered in the execution. I've been a pretty harsh critic of this film, but at least it DID actually feel like a theater film vs an extra long episode as Insurrection felt like. And I do love the space battle against the Scimitar.
The Scimitar and the new Romulan ships my favourite things that came from the film. Scimitar a great design for a one off ship and the new Romulan ship fit perfectly as a smaller ship than the huge Warbirds that for a long time seemed to be the only ships you ever saw.
As a friend of mine has said, there is a good film in here, SCREAMING to get out. All the elements needed to make a good movie are in this, but not followed through on.
I gotta say: it was a huge, HUGE, *HUGE* mistake for Berman to not get Nicholas Meyer on board and let him rewrite the script. Logan's script was a dud, and Meyer would have massively improved it in pretty much every way. Imagine what a Meyer co-written and directed Nemesis would have been.
Right. He knew how to handle these themes and how to rework an incoherent story into a tight, focused one. It’s not like he erased everybody’s ideas when he script-doctored TWOK. He might not have even asked for screenplay or story credit depending on how extensive his rewrites were or if it was mostly structural.
I think theres more to it than that since Spiner brought in Logan and also wanted to work with him on a followup. Look at the movie we got and who had the major roles, Stewart and Spiner. They were the "stars". It just so happened Stewart who loves offroading and had a huge scene offroading? Both Stewart and Spiner likely had huge input on everything and this was the end result. Spiner probably refused to be in the movie without his writer, actors are ego maniacs after all.
I was not into trek when this dropped, but my brother and dad were. I remember beeing overwhelmed by how viscerally negative they were when we all left the theater.
I'd really like to see a fan edit of Nemesis with the character scenes added back in and the gratuitous action scaled back, but as there seems to be an inverse relationship between how much a deleted scene belongs in the movie and the quality it's available in (the "Data's friends packing his belongings" scene looks like it was shot on a potato, but Telepathic Assault 2: Rightfully Cut Boogaloo is in 8K stereoscopic Traumavision), it probably won't happen. I read a fanfic parody of Nemesis where Beverly's exposition dump about Shinzon's DNA self destructing due to never having his aging acceleration activated gets immediately criticized as being overly silly, to which she responds "but it's my only line!" At the time I just thought "huh, yeah. She's barely in the movie and it's not just her." Years later I realized it was also a recurring gag on Monty Python.
The Donner cut for superman II is remarkably cohesive despite having to use test footage itself - it is possible to make it work; though mostly because the movie opens with the disclaimer "This is as close as we can get to the original vision"
It's a shame that they didn't pitch an idea blending TNG/DS9/VOY casts into an epic movie of some sort after Insurrection. That might have been the best send off for that era of Star Trek. I saw Nemesis in the theater, perhaps the second week it was out. Barely anyone else was in there and yes, it was very disappointing. This movie has never felt quite "right* in a lot of ways. I think this retrospective illuminates why. I've heard Tom Hardy was depressed after the movie came, but I will say he definitely was NOT the problem. On later rewatches, I still feel he did a great job.
Blaming Tom Hardy for how bad this movie was would be like a poor workman blaming his tools for a bad job. The blame squarely sits with the terrible director and the hack writer.
Why didn't they just make the crossover movie with DS9 and Voyager into a two part movie? That would have been awesome and potentially created a finale to the entire 24th century so the franchise could have explored the 22nd or 25-26th century.
Great...Janeway fighting the Scimitar after she damaged the replicators,and with that her coffee supply..And Sisko simply giving him a beating like Q :D
I knew the digital artist who made the Scimitar (He was one of my Uni instructors). He once told me that he had to build the ship with full detail rather then only detailing the parts that would be seen close up on screen because the director could not decide what shots he wanted, Took him a while to do this and once he'd finished, his co-workers gave him a can of Pineapples as a joke because finishing the model was like trying to (I've toned down the language) "Crap out a whole pineapple". He was proud of the ship but he said that this stuff hurt production and was not normal for Film production.
@@VenusHeadTrap2 considering marina would go on to call him an idiot, yeah seems that way. Why the chose a director who doesn't like star trek to direct star trek is beyond me, should have gone with Frakes or even Burton as director
I think they were trying to force Marina Sirtis out so they could put Ryan in so they could add sex appeal and have a character they must have seen as more popular come in. Then when that failed they tried to get her to cameo. Good on Ryan for not coming back Berman sucks. Also she was probably smart enough to see through what they were up to.
We've all had our grievances with Berman back in the 90s - but it's the 2020s now. In light of the horrors of 'Nu Trek', Berman is a true hero, a man who understood what Trek is all about and protected Gene's vision. My respect for Berman grows more and more, when I consider all he did for the franchise, and the challenges he faced.
TNG will always have a very special place in my heart. It was one of the main things that got me through Middle School and lead to many great conversations with my father while also stimulating many other interests in my developing young mind. I loved Nemesis in the theater and in the years sense, never found it to be lacking.
Once you have the murder of the entire Romulan Senate, you already have the most significant geopolitical event that has ever happened in Star Trek. You don't need to also make the guy a psychic rapist with a super ship that has a superweapon. At a certain point, you are just saucing the gravy. Dude just took complete control of a major empire with a giant military. It's like if somebody conquered the USSR during the cold war, and they made a movie about how he also has a very impressive sword. Nemesis was begging to be some sort of political thriller once they decided to open with killing the Senate. And that story could have been amazing. The Federation trying to figure out which faction to back as the empire is crumbling. Subjugated races in the Empire trying to figure out if this is the moment they should rise up against the Empire, or follow Shinzon because he decapitated the mpire that opressed them. Some forces trying to restore order and just seat a new Senate, etc. Picard trying to balance the Federation's fondness for stability with Reman desire for freedom, etc. There was great scenery to be chewed if they took that story thread seriously.
Its ok. Because like a couple years later JJ Abrams simply destroyed Romulus and everyone on it, despite the fact that a supernova only travels at the speed of light, the Hobus system was many lightyears away, and the Romulans are a vast interstellar, warp capable empire.
The older I get the more it amuses me that people being paid more than I make in a year every day are no better at their jobs than anyone else. Growing up you think oh they make a lot of money they must know what they are doing. Then they make a combination of choices that ended up with Star Trek Nemesis. And even worse the same decisions that resulted in Nemesis were very much the same choices that resulted in the Star Wars sequels.
Imagine an actual, satisfying send-off, not just to the TNG cast, but the entire franchise (at least until that point) with the TNG-DS9-VOY casts and the USS Titan. Holy shit! That would have been amazing.
I've always felt one of the main issues with the movie was how it handled Shinzon. He was such an interesting character during his introduction, then after his meeting with Picard he suddenly became cartoonishly evil with a very rushed, generic motivation. Him being a clone of Picard wound up being wasted in the end, as any Romulan leader would have sufficed. They should have really dived into him as a foil to Picard, showing how he is the same man but with vastly different circumstances -- imagine someone with the passion and cunning and skill of Picard fighting on the Romulans' and Remans' behalf, and Picard having to face these darker sides of himself. There could still be action, but the core of the plot should have been more political and diplomatic, erupting into a battle towards the end. Nemesis had a fascinating setup then went in utterly the wrong direction with it, imho. Excellent work as always! I love this series.
Great assessment. I never really bought into the idea that Shinzon was an alter ego for Picard. As pointed out above by Alex MacDonald I think just saying "look, he is bald! It's evil clone-Picard!" Picard had so many interesting character aspects that could have been picked up by Shinzon, love of archaeology for instance. I also thought that Shinzon's degeneration should have had him looking more and more like Picard as time went on, eventually being identical when he was killed.
It'd require a lot of stars to be comped into the background of most shots, but you'd think that'd be fairly cheap these days. Then again, so is Paramount.
@@MrSnaztastic maybe since wine next yervwill mark yhe 20th avisery of star trek nemeus maybe paramount could put the xented cut out as a paramount plus exclusive
I wish they would release a special edition of All Good Things, where… • For the "past" scenes, they use cutting-edge SFX to de-age everyone properly. • The "future" scenes are re-shot with the actors TODAY
And then in "Picard", there are synthetic humans who likely age. Brent Spiner's character in that show (altan Inigo Soong) could easily have just been a human version of Data.
@@MrDarthT I still think he’s secretly Lore who already gave himself a flesh body… he does some tics and twitches with his face and lips that Data and Lore did, but the Soong he played in _Enterprise_ didn’t to my recollection.
I think it absolutely was a missed opportunity for him not to turn out to be Lore, though unfortunately his eventual siding against the AI supremacist plans put into place shoots any idea of that in the foot. Since that was kinda Lore's whole thing. Why would he reject it when he was so close to success? Though I would like to point out, Alton Inigo Soong... A.I.Soong. I defs do think he's not human so to speak.
@@parrot998 that’s true, though I think a case can be made for keeping his cover being even more important to him. Last time he revealed himself they ended up dismantling him a few years later. Also he was happy to pretend to be Data for as long as it was useful to him. His experiments on Geordi could potentially also be linked to the neural transfer technology, if the writers wanted - perhaps Lore feels guilty for causing Soong’s death and wanted to carry on the work? We know he was very emotionally motivated, not just by reason. Plus it’s plenty possible that a flesh body with human hormones etc could slightly temper his temperament, compared to emotions running solely in positronic code. Now, he’s meant to return next season, so we’ll see if he’s playing the long game or if we really are meant to just really accept him as a hitherto unknown human child. But like you said, “A.I. Soong” isn’t subtle as a name, and Lore isn’t super subtle either even when he’s trying his best to be. In fact, the way he coolly tricked Sutra and then deactivated her was one of the things that reminded me of Lore. Just like how he turned off Data. Also the way he obsessed over “your perfect yellow eye” for the dead one, it didn’t really seem to be empathy for the synths per se, but more just sadness that his artistic creation had been spoiled? I think it’s easy to say “that’s the goal he wanted”, but he wanted supremacy, to lord over them; not to wipe them all out and not even see it. I also think he viewed it as an intolerable risk of exposing himself - what would he have done if any actual humans had seen the metal space tentacles pass over him? Even the “übersynths” from the portal would probably not be able to do it all instantly, so there’s the risk that something might come out. But of course it’s possible season 2 really will categorically nail that coffin closed, I had expected _something_ in the finale about Lore if they were going there. Nevertheless in rewatches I still can’t unsee how much Altan behaves like Lore in some ways, so I’m holding onto the idea for as long as it’s even remotely viable lol
@@kaitlyn__L I always thought Lore would turn out to be the S1 bad guy for Picard. I figured that after Data was destroyed, and with B4 lacking sophistication, that Starfleet would have naturally turned to Lore for consultation and as reference to progress artificial lifeforms. When brought back online, and learning of his brother's death due essentially and thematically to Picard's human short comings, he'd have started plotting.
Nicholas Meyer always said that he had a healthy disrespect for Star Trek, and that's what helped him make his Trek films so great. I think that Stuart Baird just had a disrespect.
It’s rather unfortunate that this “final” Star Trek: The Next Generation movie wound up as the first film where the Romulans play a major role in the story.
I consider Patrick Stewart one of the greatest actors of all time, and his performance on Star Trek has left an indelible impression. However, he could not write his way out of a wet paper bag. His story ideas are so pedestrian, as to defy belief. They should have kept him busy, by having him play evil Picard, as well.
That would of been the perfect send off. Having the Deep Space Nine crew and the Voyager crew on board having the USS Defiant, USS Voyager, USS Titan, and The USS Enterprise fighting together
Andre Benson well to be fair Star Trek next generation film series was supposed to have a fifth and final film but it was unfortunately canceled and scrapped after Star Trek nemesis was a box office bomb let’s just say in an alternate reality nemesis was a success here’s what the Star Trek next generation film series would like in my opinion Star Trek generations (1994) Star Trek first contact (1996) Star Trek insurrection (1998) Star Trek nemesis (2002) Star Trek the final chapter (2005) TL;DR:if Star Trek nemesis was a success then the Star Trek next generation film series would’ve lasted for three more years meaning it would last from 1994 to 2005 if Star Trek nemesis was a success
I read an article recently saying that they should have created more continuity with the TNG films in the way they did with the TOS films. Otherwise they were just larger episodes which were always going to be hit and miss. That would have been an interesting concept, to perhaps take the fight back to the Borg after FC. They were just standalone films littered with problems, which left Star Trek in a bad place from which it has never recovered.
With your excellent documentary style, I’m shocked you’re only at 125k subscribers! (Nov 2023) Keep going! I’m excited to see so much more. I just very happily subscribed :)
I remember feeling really frustrated and mad after I left the theater for this one. It was hard to watch Data get killed off, but most of my anger at the time was how such an event didn't get a movie worth its impact.
Man, you really moved me with your analysis of the missed opportunity from Nemesis of not clarifying B4's fate more sufficiently. I remember seeing Nemesis in 2002 as a young teen, not nearly the Star Trek fan I am now, and I honestly felt outright angry at the ending. To teenage me, it felt like a cheap reboot of the same Data we just saw sacrifice himself. But now after your explanation, it puts some clarity as to what could've been. And this just puts me in the feels. I've watched through the (TV) franchise once again in the past few years, and wrapping up the themes of change and self-reinvention through Data's sacrifice and B4's arrival would've been such a moving way to wrap up TNG on the big screen. It would've hit the bittersweet notes for sure, while leaving some hope and intrigue as to what's next for the franchise. Instead, it felt hollow and forced -- which is probably apropos, given the studio interference and directional rift. I wholly agree a re-edit would be best.
Great work as always Rowan. Personally I loved this movie and it is one of my favourites. The action scenes were outstanding and the dark tone appealed to me more than some of the other more comedy or sugary moments in other movies. I disagree about cutting back the action scenes. That would dilute their epicness and desperation of the fight. However, I do agree that the movie would benefit from having some of the deleted scenes reinstated. Seems criminal that they were cut in the way they were. Don't really care if it makes it a longer movie. There are plenty of long movies that do not suffer for their length and I think adding them without making other cuts would be more of an enhancement than anything else. As for the "needless" violation of Troi. For me this highlighted the darkness of the movie, and even made it a bit more uncomfortable and also gave the character involved the evil overtone that I felt it needed. It then gave Riker an extra vengeful twist by making his fight more personal than it otherwise would be so when he dispatched his foe in an epic battle it made me want to cheer out loud (not something I usually do) I loved it even if other people don't, but it is all about opinions and we all find something we like that other people don't (Please be nice, just my opinion) Got to add that the premise for another movie at the end sounds like a terrific idea and the bigwigs at Paramount should have gone for it. Not as if they could not have afforded it and it would have been epic if they had done it properly.
Nemesis should have been a fantastic closing arc for TNG. I feel as though it's a good film that lacks the development of the characters beloved by so many, lackluster early action does tax the storytelling and the final struggle/battle making it harder to celebrate the victory of the crew and the tragic end of Data. What should have been Datas big screen Spock, Wrath of Khan style death scene was ultimately skipped over by the crew/friends/family he had on the Enterprise via very limited reaction time and dialogue. A shame as the concept is very intriguing, Tom Hardy is absolutely amazing in the role and showcases many of Patrick Stewarts personal traits and mannerisms when he is playing his role as Picard, Tom excelling in portraying a mirror image to Picard. A good film, let down by a case of too many cooks, that could have been great if only those external people had left well enough alone and if the director had watched a few things regarding TNG. He did a great job directing but I feel his lack of knowledge and understanding of the lore and characters within the established canon let him down.
I remember when watching Inception in the cinema i spent most of its run time wracking my brain as to why Tom Hardys voice was so familiar since i had no idea who he was but i KNEW i knew that voice. Even though i probably hadnt watched Nemesis since it came out on video, about 2/3 through it finally hit me and i nudged my boyfriend and was was all "Thats fucking Shinzon xD". He had no idea who or what i was talking about, turns out hed never so much as watched an episode of Star Trek... ... We're not together any more.
“You’re just a T.V. director.” Damn! Shots fired there. Frakes directed First Contact and Insurrection pretty much back to back and that’s what he was told??
I was 12 when Nemesis came out, and although I was a huge Voyager fan, I had never seen any other Trek (part from small snippets) up to that point. I went to see Nemesis and at the time really enjoyed it. Over the next few years, I went on to watch all the other Trek series, and TNG became my second favourite Trek. I then proceeded to watch the films, and my older, wiser self saw Nemesis in a very different light. It still marginally bears Insurrection, but not by much. It's a shame, because it had lots of great ideas with great potential, but Paramount constantly made the wrong decisions every step of the way. They didn't seem to understand Trek fans at all. If Burton of Frakes had been allowed to direct, and the right scenes were kept in, this could have been a great movie.
Finally becoming an adult in 2002 this was the first Star Trek movie I went to see in theatres. Like you Rowan I grew up in the back end of nowhere although in my case it was the Welsh valleys so I couldn't just nip in to town to watch a movie. When I came out of the theatre I met my girlfriend and she asked me if I enjoyed it expecting me to be all bright eyed and bushy tailed but I just said "Yea". It was weird, I didn't and still don't hate it or anything but it just didn't light a fire in me and I'm still like that. If it's on I'll watch it but I havent chosen to watch it for about 5 years now. Maybe I should see what time has done to my opinion.
I know exactly what you mean. That weird....Kind of apathetic reaction is what happens when you watch a movie that's not *bad* , but doesn't have you as emotionally invested in the characters you have grown to care about as you thought it would. As Rowen pointed out, I think that was the biggest flaw of this movie, especially because it *was* the TNG send off. If it wasn't the last of the era, I don't think so many people would hate it the way they do. I watched it recently and enjoyed it for what it is, and didn't worry too much about what it wasn't.
Mr. Coleman, thank you for these Star Trek Retrospectives! All 14 parts are very well presented. I've learned so much new information about my absolute favorite show, you really did your homework! I watch a lot of Star Trek content from WhatCulture/TrekCulture, Steve Shives, and the usual documentaries! 🖖🏻👨🏻🦲👍🏻 Live Long and Prosper!
My Main problem with this movie is that I just can't get over the notion that the guys who developed this story feel that the defining characteristics of Captain Picard is bald. I thought killing data was a good move and thought the action was good as a new direction. The concept that shinzon could so easily take out the entire romulan Senate neuter s them as diabolical schemes if a bunch of slaves backing a failed science fair project could defeat then so easily. But mostly, I question why people who don't even understand how male pattern baldness works feel qualified to write star trek...
You do not understand. The creators made Shinzon bald at his young age, so that casual cinemagoers who are not well-versed Trekkies could better put the two guys, Picard and Shinzon, together. I do not agree with the decision, but I can clearly see where they were coming from. Hardy did not look very much like Stewart even with the fake nose and chin, and if they had him to keep his hair, no matter what the hairdo, he would have looked even less like Stewart and that would unfortunately be very confusing for all the Average Joes out there.
Fair enough, but I still think that conveys a lack of respect for the intelligence of the audience. And in universe, they would have had to genetically engineered him to be bald. He is thus an augment, not a clone. Srsly, that's dumb, people hated the film and can I be certain that the writers actually understand that the baldness would have had to.be created deliberately by gene manipulation???
@@alexmacdonald1998 Shinzon could shave his hair deliberately, I assume. After all, it was not precisely Picard's haircut since he still sported some hair on the sides and back of his head. :-)
Another valid point. I still just get the impression that the writers lack respect for the audience. Either way, this aspect ruined the movie for me and continues to do so whenever i try to watch it.
For me, the movie's biggest flaw is that the plot makes no sense. Shinzon lures the Enterprise crew to find B-4, who he uses to gain details of the Federation's anti-cloaking sensors so he can go to Earth and detonate the thalaron weapon... in his Warbird with an unbreakable cloak. There are some good moments in there, the early character work is fun, the starship battle is cool, but as you note the action is over the top, it's exhausting to watch by the end instead of exciting - and not in a deliberate, "war is hell" sort of way.
Yeah he could just fly up there and kill everyone... But his sudden mission to destroy earth makes no sense in the first place. He wanted Picard because he needed a transfusion (or something, it's never made clear why he is ill). Then he just gives up and decides to die in a blaze of glory taking earth with him? And why earth, he should want to destroy Romulus.
Data was never meant to be ageless... Geordi even says in the episode 'Inheritance' “It's part of her ageing program,” states La Forge. “Not only does she *age in appearance like Data* , her vital signs change too.” So like wtf. eh? They should not have cut the Picard / Data scene (these scenes are the reason we watch Star Trek)... uh, the 'Star Wars' part on the Scimitar with the ever-so-convenient spaced hallways, could have been cut back to let the P/D scene in, stupid people. I would like to site 'The Inner Light' here - not one photon torpedo or explosion, and yet the episode is one of the Top 10 best of the series.
I've been told for years that I shouldn't like the Scimitar because it's a "Mary Sue" ship... but honestly after watching the Enterprise E kick ass and take names for 2 movies in a row, it was nice to raise the stakes and give the E something that could actually give it a run for its money.
The ship on ship action is one of the main reasons it’s one of my fav Trek films. But it would have been so much better with better character development and focus. It could have done with a longer runtime in order to flesh that out and make sure each character got their “last haraar”
I love Nemesis and don´t really like Insurrection...The entire premise is actually too stupid and contradicts several things shown during the shows...Saving 600 People,that aren´t even native to a planet...At the cost of refusing to get the fountain of youth..That radioation might´ve actually been a counter to the Borg The Soundtrack and acting is great though
@@NashmanNash Rowan made a great review (I don't mean the recent retrospective) about the Insurrection in the past. He found it to be the worst ST film ever and his arguments were pretty compelling.
The issue I have with Nemesis is that there seems to be a focus on the "nature v nurture" argument between Picard and Shinzon, yes they share the same DNA which with affect much of their development but with two very opposite lives of course they're radically different people. It seems like a totally moot point. I'm also always perplexed by Shinzon's desire to target Earth, given that it has never done anything to him. If he'd gone after Romulus and threatened to wipe out the entire population there, I could understand, it would also add a nice dimension to the final battle and mirror Narendra III, with the E-E ready and willing to sacrifice everything to safeguard the Federations oldest enemy, something that could be the beginnings of a lasting peace with the Romulans.
True, Annika Hansen (7 of 9) making an appearance would have made no sense. But Worf's inclusion in this entry made no sense, either, for by then he would have been a member of the Starfleet _Diplomatic Corps_ (ambassador to Quonos). It ought to be noted that Frakes already had a directing gig, thus making himself unavailable - though Burton emphatically was still available (the very first time that I have become aware of _that_ tidbit). "...would have united the crews from Deep Space Nine and Voyager..." Has Rowan somehow gotten a hold of the script for that would-be follow-up film? Is it available on-line? That infamous 'violation' of Commander Troi is actually a callback to an episode from TNG. But then again, the whole film - unlike the preceding three, this entry is totally superfluous since only three feature-length films were allotted for fulfilling the contract for the 'canceled' Season Eight - is arguably a remake of The Wrath of Khan. By both metrics (creativity and money) this is one of THE worst Trek films ever on-screen, with competition from The Final Frontier and Generations (the Duras Sisters are gratuitously killed off in it) for that honour.
It sort of feels like Stewart and Spiner were the cast members advocating for this particular movie to happen and that the plot indulges them a little too much in response.
It's been quite some time since I last saw this film; however, having just watched this retrospective, it seems what Star Trek fans really 'need' is a Jonathan Frakes 'directors' cut of this film; re-introducing those most beneficial of the Paramount-cut segments, and a general tidying-up of the end product..... Sadly I guess it'll never happen, but it would be interesting to see... 😏
Nemesis is the movie that helped me come up with a new way of thinking about movies. I think, "If I didn't hate this movie, what would I like about this movie?" It not only helps me appreciate what is good, but also more accurately identify what I think is bad.
My always loved scifi scene is the scimitar pomping up for the final blast. Absolutely perfect. The unfolding of the separated wings.... ansolutely gorgeous. Okay the score is very helpful.
It's a real shame Stuart Baird had no understanding of the characters. There's actually screen test footage of Patrick Stewart and Tom Hardy playing out the first meeting of their characters, and the approach and tone of the characters is far more 'Star Trek' than the final product.
Rick Berman responded to Sirtis, that they never planned to fire her and replace her with Ryan. And if I recall right, Ryan said on a convention panel, that she was not approached for Nemesis. Sirtis tends to spice up stories for her convention panels, so you can take her story with a grain of salt.
What else has Sirtis "spiced up" on? I am inclined to believe Ryan on her claims (if she says she was never directly approached, then that settles _that_ part of the story). But...Berman is a different matter (he effectively drove Terri Farrell out of DS9 when he refused her proposal to have Jadzia Dax as a recurring character for Season 7). While he arguably had credibly shepherded the franchise with three 24th-century series and three feature-length films (in lieu of an eighth season for TNG), he was/is far, far from a saint 🎬😒
This movie is my favourite Star Trek simply for the battle scene. So many great moments, like when the Enterprise fires every phaser bank at once, when they score about 7 photon hits in a row, the flanking Warbird’s wing collides with the Enterprise, or when the quantums smash into the lurking Scimitar - awesome. Such a shame it was let down by a heavy-handed studio.
Why did they make the Remans look straight-up evil? They're supposed to be somewhat sympathetic, but they made them look like cheap horror movie monsters.
One thing I've since appreciated since reading Patrick Stewart's 'Making It So', is that 'Nemesis' feels more like a confident feature film, rather than an extended expensive episode, and wonder how it would have been received had it come first instead of 'Generations'..?
I think it's actually a common running theme in the bottom half of the Star Trek film series. From a technical standpoint, things are fairly decent and the individual bits are there to make a great film, but they just don't know how to put things together in the right ratios. I mean action is fine, but it should be in service to the story and the themes, action just for the sake of action is kind of like eating raw sugar just because you want something sweet. Yes, you are theoretically getting what you want but there are better ways to get that aspect of flavour into your system. And they had a great mechanism for this in Nemesis. After all, you literally have age and experience fighting youth and vigour.
I think my biggest problem with the movie was B4. I just didn't understand this plot point. There was already Lore who was basically the same thing, and I think Lore wasn't even mentioned. I get why you might want to kill data, but adding B4 makes no sense to me. I gotta think there was something better to do with Data instead. I also agree that many of the characters didn't feel true to their history either.
If I'm not mistaken, there are four videos left of the series after this one. Until maybe when the current shows finish (a while after they finish). Also, next year Strange New Worlds, airs, marking the second time three live action Star Trek television shows run concurrently. Adding in Lower Decks and the more recent Prodigy, we will have five different Star Trek shows running concurrently. As a more recent fan of the series (essentially rushing through the entire franchise in just a few years), and as someone who throughly enjoys Lower Decks and Picard as well the majority of Discovery (it's not as good as Lower Decks or Picard, but it's decent), I can only say I'm genuinely happy for this much Star Trek content. Also, Anson Mount is perfect casting as Pike, and although it didn't make much sense to recast Spock yet again (rather than using either a Micoy look alike or just Zachary Quinto (though Zachary would probably be too expensive)), Ethen Peck did a great job as Spock, and I'm glad he'll inhabit the role for more than just a season of a show. Or part of one, anyway.
I used to think this movie got too much flak, but conversely when I re-watch it I find it really boring Or at least hard to care about the characters and plot overall It's probably in my bottom three, but I'll still ranked insurrection is dead last because the entirety of that film is absolutely boring as hell
Great review/sum up of Nemesis' strength and weaknesses. I remember being pretty excited for it, then pretty disappointed with it for most of the reasons you mentioned. In addition I felt like the next gen crew seemed "tired" and unenthusiastic to be there, but that could have been the result of bad direction. Ultimately I just never could really suspend my disbelief like I usually do when watching the movie, and kept thinking about how this entire thing was a tacked together, perfunctory money grab with no heart.
They should have let Frakes direct. Choosing a director that has no knowledge of the source is a really bad idea. But hollywood is too driven by image than putting out quality.
As with your previous videos, you nailed it on this one. That movie had and has so much unrealized potential. I wish Jonathan Frakes would do a Should-Have-Been-The-Director's cut, trimming down the fat and adding back those scenes that should have been in there. There are still scenes that are forced and just bizarre, but he or someone could make what's available better. Thanks again! These Respectives are great!
I'm convinced that added that mind assault scene just to be mean to Marina Sirtis for asking for a fair salary. But I have no evidence to confirm that.
When you described the movie that never happened I almost cried. Omg how I would have loved that. I had no idea that was a possibility. I wish I lived in the universe where that movie happened 🤔
In hindsight, picking a guy because he directed US Marshals and Executive Decision was not a good idea. Neither of those films are particularly memorable, even if they were successful at the time of their release
My Introduction to Star Trek and Tom Hardy, so I can't Hate this.... But putting that bias aside, I won't deny that Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country was a Much better Send-off film for The Original series' Cast than this was for The Next Generation cast.
They were really hedging their bets. Even in the tagline, "a generation's final journey BEGINS"... like, maybe it's the last one, maybe not, you tell us. The box office definitely decided for them.
Yup I just watched every single Star Trek film for the first time and this one was probably my favorite. Very underrated and honestly just confused why it got such a cold reception. My ONLY criticism is some of the action scenes felt cheesy and over the top (I’m thinking specifically the scenes where they find B4 and the scene where Picard and data escape the Reman ship). The space battles were pretty well-done though.
I have paused the video on Tom Hardy played a young Picard. I never knew this, never saw it in Hardy's acting, and it would add to my contrarian view of Hardy being touted much more than he should. That being said, nobody can play Picard like Stewart. Unfathomable! No. 1, you have the helm!
As mangled up as this film is thanks to Baird editing out 30 minutes of it, I still find some enjoyment from the film. But then I grew up on TNG, so the characters will always have a special place in my heart
This is definitely some headcanon worldbuilding spackle, but I always chose to read Janeway's promotion ahead of Picard as the PTSD implied by the inconsistent characterization she written with in Voyager was read by Starfleet as her not being fit for service as a captain, but she was too high profile to retire out of service so they kicked her upstairs into a less stressful administrative role.
Things I remember about Nemesis: 1. It broke the Even-Numbered Trend 2. Data died (not in detail but just as a fact) 3. Young Picard clone (not in detail but from movie posters)
Man. Big respect to Jeri Ryan for turning down the various appearance offers on account of them not making a lick of sense.
I agree 100%, I'm glad she declined.
I wish she would have declined Picard...
@@solutionless123 I wish Patrick Stewart would have declined.
@@Pondimus_Maximus Word
RESPECT?! lol.. did you see Picard?
😂
Impressed to here Jeri Ryan refusing to join because it makes no sense for the character. It would seem that an actress (with financial incentives to join) was more protective of the franchise integrity than the writers/producers/directors.
Me too.
You have to wonder why she later renegged and agreed to appear in Star Trek Picard, despite still having never had any interactions with Picard at any point in either of their histories.
@@tituslafrombois1164 I don’t think it was money…she’s got more than enough of that. Creative expression? A desire to done the costume one more time? A chance to share the screen with an absolute legend?
@@joshuapatrick682 any of your answers would have been good reason to appear in Nemesis, yet she chose not to then because it wouldn't have made any sense. How does it now make sense?
It’s spelled *hear
I really wish the central tension had been purely political: the Federation has good diplomatic relations with the Romulans for the first time ever after the Dominion War, but the Remans appeal to Picard directly for support so their liberation struggle will succeed.
As a representative of the Federation, he can’t support them. But as a representative of humanity, how could he not?
Making the Remans villainous rather than just antagonists robs a lot of the drama that TNG and specifically Picard’s character did at their best.
That sounds way too close to what they did in "Insurrection"
Long story short I wish the plot of Nemesis were used as the basis of a Romulan centered miniseries set after DS9. Provided it's directed by someone who understands Star Trek that is.
I've always felt the central missed opportunity of Nemesis was that they created B-4 instead of resurrecting Lore, a ready-made villain who would have served as an ideal opponent for Data. With Lore in the mix to serve as another villain - perhaps even the ending "twist" villain who has played everyone, Shinzon could have been depicted as a more conflicted and more sympathetic figure, instead of the mind rapist abomination we saw on screen. Data stopping Lore at the cost of his on life would have been so more resonant, and would have invited comparison to Holmes and Moriarty plunging over Reichenbach Falls. Somewhere, I feel like there is an alternate timeline where Nemesis is a great film.
Lore would have been perfect for Nemesis
Yeah, this would have made a lot more sense, a new character created for the movie is hardly the enterprise crew's "nemesis" every time lore showed up he always had serious Big Villain Energy and could have easily have been TNG's equivalent to Khan.
Great idea! Shinzon was SO boring and forgettable, but Lore is a truly great character and this really could have been his finest hour. He and Wesley Crusher go way back and they could have made that relationship part of the story. Funny to think that Spiner himself co-wrote this movie and yet failed to think of Lore!
@@Scripture-Man Did some writers credit block the use of Lore?
@@richardday3136 More likely if the idea came up, the studio would block it so as not to pay writers.
There definitely seemed like a good story there, it just floundered in the execution. I've been a pretty harsh critic of this film, but at least it DID actually feel like a theater film vs an extra long episode as Insurrection felt like. And I do love the space battle against the Scimitar.
The Scimitar and the new Romulan ships my favourite things that came from the film. Scimitar a great design for a one off ship and the new Romulan ship fit perfectly as a smaller ship than the huge Warbirds that for a long time seemed to be the only ships you ever saw.
@@lordomacron3719 well there is that mythical extended cut of star trk nemesis out there in the arher
As a friend of mine has said, there is a good film in here, SCREAMING to get out. All the elements needed to make a good movie are in this, but not followed through on.
I gotta say: it was a huge, HUGE, *HUGE* mistake for Berman to not get Nicholas Meyer on board and let him rewrite the script. Logan's script was a dud, and Meyer would have massively improved it in pretty much every way. Imagine what a Meyer co-written and directed Nemesis would have been.
Right. He knew how to handle these themes and how to rework an incoherent story into a tight, focused one. It’s not like he erased everybody’s ideas when he script-doctored TWOK. He might not have even asked for screenplay or story credit depending on how extensive his rewrites were or if it was mostly structural.
Could have been something that lived up to the standard of the Undiscovered Country.
Lesson learnt, never promise too much.
But if you go and watch the deleted scenes they're great adding so much character, the fault not the script but the direction and editing
I think theres more to it than that since Spiner brought in Logan and also wanted to work with him on a followup. Look at the movie we got and who had the major roles, Stewart and Spiner. They were the "stars". It just so happened Stewart who loves offroading and had a huge scene offroading? Both Stewart and Spiner likely had huge input on everything and this was the end result. Spiner probably refused to be in the movie without his writer, actors are ego maniacs after all.
I was not into trek when this dropped, but my brother and dad were. I remember beeing overwhelmed by how viscerally negative they were when we all left the theater.
Yeah... I can barely remember this movie and I think it was the only startrek movie I saw in the cinema
I'd really like to see a fan edit of Nemesis with the character scenes added back in and the gratuitous action scaled back, but as there seems to be an inverse relationship between how much a deleted scene belongs in the movie and the quality it's available in (the "Data's friends packing his belongings" scene looks like it was shot on a potato, but Telepathic Assault 2: Rightfully Cut Boogaloo is in 8K stereoscopic Traumavision), it probably won't happen.
I read a fanfic parody of Nemesis where Beverly's exposition dump about Shinzon's DNA self destructing due to never having his aging acceleration activated gets immediately criticized as being overly silly, to which she responds "but it's my only line!" At the time I just thought "huh, yeah. She's barely in the movie and it's not just her." Years later I realized it was also a recurring gag on Monty Python.
The Donner cut for superman II is remarkably cohesive despite having to use test footage itself - it is possible to make it work; though mostly because the movie opens with the disclaimer "This is as close as we can get to the original vision"
@@qwellen7521 Alien 3's Assembly cut is supposed to Really good as well.
@@eamonndeane587 I’ve seen it - it’s the superior cut; but some of the structural issues of that movie still remain.
@@eamonndeane587 when the original movie is theatrical cut of Alien 3 - you have a low bar. Damn, that cut is so frustrating.
It's a shame that they didn't pitch an idea blending TNG/DS9/VOY casts into an epic movie of some sort after Insurrection. That might have been the best send off for that era of Star Trek.
I saw Nemesis in the theater, perhaps the second week it was out. Barely anyone else was in there and yes, it was very disappointing. This movie has never felt quite "right* in a lot of ways. I think this retrospective illuminates why. I've heard Tom Hardy was depressed after the movie came, but I will say he definitely was NOT the problem. On later rewatches, I still feel he did a great job.
Apparently that’s what Berman and co wanted to do for Star Trek eleven
Blaming Tom Hardy for how bad this movie was would be like a poor workman blaming his tools for a bad job.
The blame squarely sits with the terrible director and the hack writer.
Why didn't they just make the crossover movie with DS9 and Voyager into a two part movie? That would have been awesome and potentially created a finale to the entire 24th century so the franchise could have explored the 22nd or 25-26th century.
Excellent idea. Even as a not massively obsessed fan, I would definitely watch this.
Great...Janeway fighting the Scimitar after she damaged the replicators,and with that her coffee supply..And Sisko simply giving him a beating like Q :D
I could just imagine a poster with Janeway, Sisko and Picard standing side by side...
@@NashmanNash or with some of Neelix's old cheese...?
A crossover movie would have been SO good! All our favorite characters meeting each other, working together. Ahhh, would have been so awesome!
I knew the digital artist who made the Scimitar (He was one of my Uni instructors). He once told me that he had to build the ship with full detail rather then only detailing the parts that would be seen close up on screen because the director could not decide what shots he wanted, Took him a while to do this and once he'd finished, his co-workers gave him a can of Pineapples as a joke because finishing the model was like trying to (I've toned down the language) "Crap out a whole pineapple". He was proud of the ship but he said that this stuff hurt production and was not normal for Film production.
Sounds like Baird was a crappy director to work with
@@VenusHeadTrap2 considering marina would go on to call him an idiot, yeah seems that way. Why the chose a director who doesn't like star trek to direct star trek is beyond me, should have gone with Frakes or even Burton as director
I think they were trying to force Marina Sirtis out so they could put Ryan in so they could add sex appeal and have a character they must have seen as more popular come in. Then when that failed they tried to get her to cameo. Good on Ryan for not coming back Berman sucks. Also she was probably smart enough to see through what they were up to.
It was PARAMOUNT that wanted Ryan to replace Sirtis. Didn't you pay attention to the video??? It's moronic to blame Berman for that!
We've all had our grievances with Berman back in the 90s - but it's the 2020s now. In light of the horrors of 'Nu Trek', Berman is a true hero, a man who understood what Trek is all about and protected Gene's vision. My respect for Berman grows more and more, when I consider all he did for the franchise, and the challenges he faced.
@@Scripture-Man "horrors"? Yes, pushing TREK forward instead of memberberries of the '90s is horrible for those unable to adapt and accept change.
@@peterthx yes horrors.
Ryan didn't mind showing up as phony cultural pandering in 2019, though. Right?
TNG will always have a very special place in my heart. It was one of the main things that got me through Middle School and lead to many great conversations with my father while also stimulating many other interests in my developing young mind. I loved Nemesis in the theater and in the years sense, never found it to be lacking.
There could had been a movie with TNG, DS9 and Voyager crews? I am quite sad it never happened...
I love how Nemesis set up the possibility of B-4 slowly becoming a new Data, only for Picard to reduce him to a box of spare parts.
Once you have the murder of the entire Romulan Senate, you already have the most significant geopolitical event that has ever happened in Star Trek. You don't need to also make the guy a psychic rapist with a super ship that has a superweapon. At a certain point, you are just saucing the gravy. Dude just took complete control of a major empire with a giant military. It's like if somebody conquered the USSR during the cold war, and they made a movie about how he also has a very impressive sword.
Nemesis was begging to be some sort of political thriller once they decided to open with killing the Senate. And that story could have been amazing. The Federation trying to figure out which faction to back as the empire is crumbling. Subjugated races in the Empire trying to figure out if this is the moment they should rise up against the Empire, or follow Shinzon because he decapitated the mpire that opressed them. Some forces trying to restore order and just seat a new Senate, etc. Picard trying to balance the Federation's fondness for stability with Reman desire for freedom, etc. There was great scenery to be chewed if they took that story thread seriously.
Its ok. Because like a couple years later JJ Abrams simply destroyed Romulus and everyone on it, despite the fact that a supernova only travels at the speed of light, the Hobus system was many lightyears away, and the Romulans are a vast interstellar, warp capable empire.
@@i.r.s9494Yeah but... Lense flairs and The Beasty Boys!
The older I get the more it amuses me that people being paid more than I make in a year every day are no better at their jobs than anyone else. Growing up you think oh they make a lot of money they must know what they are doing. Then they make a combination of choices that ended up with Star Trek Nemesis.
And even worse the same decisions that resulted in Nemesis were very much the same choices that resulted in the Star Wars sequels.
It's less amusing when those people are in charge of things that are actually important.
Imagine an actual, satisfying send-off, not just to the TNG cast, but the entire franchise (at least until that point) with the TNG-DS9-VOY casts and the USS Titan. Holy shit! That would have been amazing.
I've always felt one of the main issues with the movie was how it handled Shinzon. He was such an interesting character during his introduction, then after his meeting with Picard he suddenly became cartoonishly evil with a very rushed, generic motivation. Him being a clone of Picard wound up being wasted in the end, as any Romulan leader would have sufficed. They should have really dived into him as a foil to Picard, showing how he is the same man but with vastly different circumstances -- imagine someone with the passion and cunning and skill of Picard fighting on the Romulans' and Remans' behalf, and Picard having to face these darker sides of himself. There could still be action, but the core of the plot should have been more political and diplomatic, erupting into a battle towards the end. Nemesis had a fascinating setup then went in utterly the wrong direction with it, imho.
Excellent work as always! I love this series.
Great assessment. I never really bought into the idea that Shinzon was an alter ego for Picard. As pointed out above by Alex MacDonald I think just saying "look, he is bald! It's evil clone-Picard!" Picard had so many interesting character aspects that could have been picked up by Shinzon, love of archaeology for instance. I also thought that Shinzon's degeneration should have had him looking more and more like Picard as time went on, eventually being identical when he was killed.
So Paramount could actually release an affective SPECIAL Edition of Nemesis with a full half hour of extra footage - let's go!!!
It'd require a lot of stars to be comped into the background of most shots, but you'd think that'd be fairly cheap these days. Then again, so is Paramount.
@@MrSnaztastic maybe since wine next yervwill mark yhe 20th avisery of star trek nemeus maybe paramount could put the xented cut out as a paramount plus exclusive
Jonathan yel relase the Baird cut
I wish they would release a special edition of All Good Things, where…
• For the "past" scenes, they use cutting-edge SFX to de-age everyone properly.
• The "future" scenes are re-shot with the actors TODAY
@@Scripture-Man YES - that would be super cool!
Spiner: I am getting too old for this.
Fans: Data has aging circuits.
Spiner: Shh.
And then in "Picard", there are synthetic humans who likely age. Brent Spiner's character in that show (altan Inigo Soong) could easily have just been a human version of Data.
@@MrDarthT I still think he’s secretly Lore who already gave himself a flesh body… he does some tics and twitches with his face and lips that Data and Lore did, but the Soong he played in _Enterprise_ didn’t to my recollection.
I think it absolutely was a missed opportunity for him not to turn out to be Lore, though unfortunately his eventual siding against the AI supremacist plans put into place shoots any idea of that in the foot. Since that was kinda Lore's whole thing. Why would he reject it when he was so close to success? Though I would like to point out, Alton Inigo Soong... A.I.Soong. I defs do think he's not human so to speak.
@@parrot998 that’s true, though I think a case can be made for keeping his cover being even more important to him. Last time he revealed himself they ended up dismantling him a few years later.
Also he was happy to pretend to be Data for as long as it was useful to him. His experiments on Geordi could potentially also be linked to the neural transfer technology, if the writers wanted - perhaps Lore feels guilty for causing Soong’s death and wanted to carry on the work? We know he was very emotionally motivated, not just by reason.
Plus it’s plenty possible that a flesh body with human hormones etc could slightly temper his temperament, compared to emotions running solely in positronic code.
Now, he’s meant to return next season, so we’ll see if he’s playing the long game or if we really are meant to just really accept him as a hitherto unknown human child. But like you said, “A.I. Soong” isn’t subtle as a name, and Lore isn’t super subtle either even when he’s trying his best to be.
In fact, the way he coolly tricked Sutra and then deactivated her was one of the things that reminded me of Lore. Just like how he turned off Data.
Also the way he obsessed over “your perfect yellow eye” for the dead one, it didn’t really seem to be empathy for the synths per se, but more just sadness that his artistic creation had been spoiled?
I think it’s easy to say “that’s the goal he wanted”, but he wanted supremacy, to lord over them; not to wipe them all out and not even see it. I also think he viewed it as an intolerable risk of exposing himself - what would he have done if any actual humans had seen the metal space tentacles pass over him? Even the “übersynths” from the portal would probably not be able to do it all instantly, so there’s the risk that something might come out.
But of course it’s possible season 2 really will categorically nail that coffin closed, I had expected _something_ in the finale about Lore if they were going there. Nevertheless in rewatches I still can’t unsee how much Altan behaves like Lore in some ways, so I’m holding onto the idea for as long as it’s even remotely viable lol
@@kaitlyn__L I always thought Lore would turn out to be the S1 bad guy for Picard. I figured that after Data was destroyed, and with B4 lacking sophistication, that Starfleet would have naturally turned to Lore for consultation and as reference to progress artificial lifeforms. When brought back online, and learning of his brother's death due essentially and thematically to Picard's human short comings, he'd have started plotting.
Nicholas Meyer always said that he had a healthy disrespect for Star Trek, and that's what helped him make his Trek films so great. I think that Stuart Baird just had a disrespect.
It’s rather unfortunate that this “final” Star Trek: The Next Generation movie wound up as the first film where the Romulans play a major role in the story.
I consider Patrick Stewart one of the greatest actors of all time, and his performance on Star Trek has left an indelible impression. However, he could not write his way out of a wet paper bag. His story ideas are so pedestrian, as to defy belief. They should have kept him busy, by having him play evil Picard, as well.
Also, he was too old to be the action hero making quips while he and Data were on the Romulan ship.
That would of been the perfect send off. Having the Deep Space Nine crew and the Voyager crew on board having the USS Defiant, USS Voyager, USS Titan, and The USS Enterprise fighting together
Andre Benson well to be fair Star Trek next generation film series was supposed to have a fifth and final film but it was unfortunately canceled and scrapped after Star Trek nemesis was a box office bomb let’s just say in an alternate reality nemesis was a success here’s what the Star Trek next generation film series would like in my opinion
Star Trek generations (1994)
Star Trek first contact (1996)
Star Trek insurrection (1998)
Star Trek nemesis (2002)
Star Trek the final chapter (2005)
TL;DR:if Star Trek nemesis was a success then the Star Trek next generation film series would’ve lasted for three more years meaning it would last from 1994 to 2005 if Star Trek nemesis was a success
I read an article recently saying that they should have created more continuity with the TNG films in the way they did with the TOS films. Otherwise they were just larger episodes which were always going to be hit and miss. That would have been an interesting concept, to perhaps take the fight back to the Borg after FC. They were just standalone films littered with problems, which left Star Trek in a bad place from which it has never recovered.
After seeing this, I'd love to see a recut; The deleted scenes put back in, The rape scene completely cut, and action scaled back.
With your excellent documentary style, I’m shocked you’re only at 125k subscribers! (Nov 2023) Keep going! I’m excited to see so much more. I just very happily subscribed :)
I remember feeling really frustrated and mad after I left the theater for this one. It was hard to watch Data get killed off, but most of my anger at the time was how such an event didn't get a movie worth its impact.
Man, you really moved me with your analysis of the missed opportunity from Nemesis of not clarifying B4's fate more sufficiently. I remember seeing Nemesis in 2002 as a young teen, not nearly the Star Trek fan I am now, and I honestly felt outright angry at the ending. To teenage me, it felt like a cheap reboot of the same Data we just saw sacrifice himself. But now after your explanation, it puts some clarity as to what could've been. And this just puts me in the feels. I've watched through the (TV) franchise once again in the past few years, and wrapping up the themes of change and self-reinvention through Data's sacrifice and B4's arrival would've been such a moving way to wrap up TNG on the big screen. It would've hit the bittersweet notes for sure, while leaving some hope and intrigue as to what's next for the franchise. Instead, it felt hollow and forced -- which is probably apropos, given the studio interference and directional rift. I wholly agree a re-edit would be best.
Great work as always Rowan. Personally I loved this movie and it is one of my favourites. The action scenes were outstanding and the dark tone appealed to me more than some of the other more comedy or sugary moments in other movies. I disagree about cutting back the action scenes. That would dilute their epicness and desperation of the fight. However, I do agree that the movie would benefit from having some of the deleted scenes reinstated. Seems criminal that they were cut in the way they were. Don't really care if it makes it a longer movie. There are plenty of long movies that do not suffer for their length and I think adding them without making other cuts would be more of an enhancement than anything else. As for the "needless" violation of Troi. For me this highlighted the darkness of the movie, and even made it a bit more uncomfortable and also gave the character involved the evil overtone that I felt it needed. It then gave Riker an extra vengeful twist by making his fight more personal than it otherwise would be so when he dispatched his foe in an epic battle it made me want to cheer out loud (not something I usually do) I loved it even if other people don't, but it is all about opinions and we all find something we like that other people don't (Please be nice, just my opinion) Got to add that the premise for another movie at the end sounds like a terrific idea and the bigwigs at Paramount should have gone for it. Not as if they could not have afforded it and it would have been epic if they had done it properly.
Nemesis should have been a fantastic closing arc for TNG. I feel as though it's a good film that lacks the development of the characters beloved by so many, lackluster early action does tax the storytelling and the final struggle/battle making it harder to celebrate the victory of the crew and the tragic end of Data.
What should have been Datas big screen Spock, Wrath of Khan style death scene was ultimately skipped over by the crew/friends/family he had on the Enterprise via very limited reaction time and dialogue.
A shame as the concept is very intriguing, Tom Hardy is absolutely amazing in the role and showcases many of Patrick Stewarts personal traits and mannerisms when he is playing his role as Picard, Tom excelling in portraying a mirror image to Picard.
A good film, let down by a case of too many cooks, that could have been great if only those external people had left well enough alone and if the director had watched a few things regarding TNG. He did a great job directing but I feel his lack of knowledge and understanding of the lore and characters within the established canon let him down.
I remember when watching Inception in the cinema i spent most of its run time wracking my brain as to why Tom Hardys voice was so familiar since i had no idea who he was but i KNEW i knew that voice. Even though i probably hadnt watched Nemesis since it came out on video, about 2/3 through it finally hit me and i nudged my boyfriend and was was all "Thats fucking Shinzon xD".
He had no idea who or what i was talking about, turns out hed never so much as watched an episode of Star Trek...
... We're not together any more.
“You’re just a T.V. director.” Damn! Shots fired there. Frakes directed First Contact and Insurrection pretty much back to back and that’s what he was told??
They weren't wrong, Nemesis has a stronger sense of direction to it.
This entire retrospective series has been fascinating to say the least. Thank you for your effort and time to bring this together!
I was 12 when Nemesis came out, and although I was a huge Voyager fan, I had never seen any other Trek (part from small snippets) up to that point. I went to see Nemesis and at the time really enjoyed it. Over the next few years, I went on to watch all the other Trek series, and TNG became my second favourite Trek. I then proceeded to watch the films, and my older, wiser self saw Nemesis in a very different light. It still marginally bears Insurrection, but not by much. It's a shame, because it had lots of great ideas with great potential, but Paramount constantly made the wrong decisions every step of the way. They didn't seem to understand Trek fans at all. If Burton of Frakes had been allowed to direct, and the right scenes were kept in, this could have been a great movie.
for nemisis despites its issues, just seeing the characters again in any capacity Is a delight.
Finally becoming an adult in 2002 this was the first Star Trek movie I went to see in theatres. Like you Rowan I grew up in the back end of nowhere although in my case it was the Welsh valleys so I couldn't just nip in to town to watch a movie. When I came out of the theatre I met my girlfriend and she asked me if I enjoyed it expecting me to be all bright eyed and bushy tailed but I just said "Yea". It was weird, I didn't and still don't hate it or anything but it just didn't light a fire in me and I'm still like that. If it's on I'll watch it but I havent chosen to watch it for about 5 years now. Maybe I should see what time has done to my opinion.
I know exactly what you mean. That weird....Kind of apathetic reaction is what happens when you watch a movie that's not *bad* , but doesn't have you as emotionally invested in the characters you have grown to care about as you thought it would. As Rowen pointed out, I think that was the biggest flaw of this movie, especially because it *was* the TNG send off. If it wasn't the last of the era, I don't think so many people would hate it the way they do. I watched it recently and enjoyed it for what it is, and didn't worry too much about what it wasn't.
@@Quivex1 that's an excellent way to look at it. When I do rewatch it I will try to remember that
Did not know Nicholas Meyer had an opportunity to work on this. Biggest missed opportunity, EVER
Mr. Coleman, thank you for these Star Trek Retrospectives! All 14 parts are very well presented.
I've learned so much new information about my absolute favorite show, you really did your homework!
I watch a lot of Star Trek content from WhatCulture/TrekCulture, Steve Shives, and the usual documentaries!
🖖🏻👨🏻🦲👍🏻 Live Long and Prosper!
My Main problem with this movie is that I just can't get over the notion that the guys who developed this story feel that the defining characteristics of Captain Picard is bald. I thought killing data was a good move and thought the action was good as a new direction. The concept that shinzon could so easily take out the entire romulan Senate neuter s them as diabolical schemes if a bunch of slaves backing a failed science fair project could defeat then so easily. But mostly, I question why people who don't even understand how male pattern baldness works feel qualified to write star trek...
You do not understand. The creators made Shinzon bald at his young age, so that casual cinemagoers who are not well-versed Trekkies could better put the two guys, Picard and Shinzon, together.
I do not agree with the decision, but I can clearly see where they were coming from.
Hardy did not look very much like Stewart even with the fake nose and chin, and if they had him to keep his hair, no matter what the hairdo, he would have looked even less like Stewart and that would unfortunately be very confusing for all the Average Joes out there.
Fair enough, but I still think that conveys a lack of respect for the intelligence of the audience. And in universe, they would have had to genetically engineered him to be bald. He is thus an augment, not a clone. Srsly, that's dumb, people hated the film and can I be certain that the writers actually understand that the baldness would have had to.be created deliberately by gene manipulation???
@@alexmacdonald1998
Shinzon could shave his hair deliberately, I assume. After all, it was not precisely Picard's haircut since he still sported some hair on the sides and back of his head. :-)
Another valid point. I still just get the impression that the writers lack respect for the audience. Either way, this aspect ruined the movie for me and continues to do so whenever i try to watch it.
@@subraxas But we do see a picture of Picard in his cadet uniform and he is bald. But the series the young Picard had hair.
I actually enjoyed Nemesis when it came out. Re-watched recently, and still liked it.
I really loved the score also.
@@stevojohn You can't go wrong Jerry Goldsmith.
Great Job on these, I Love the deep dives into the behind the scenes
.... Keep up the good work sir!
It's been a long road, getting from there to here. It's been a long time. ... but Enterprise's time is finally here.
I click the thumbnail and literally the only thing I hear is *"...and as always, live long and prosper."*
My timing is impeccable.
All this and Bryan Singer on the bridge. 🖖
For me, the movie's biggest flaw is that the plot makes no sense. Shinzon lures the Enterprise crew to find B-4, who he uses to gain details of the Federation's anti-cloaking sensors so he can go to Earth and detonate the thalaron weapon... in his Warbird with an unbreakable cloak.
There are some good moments in there, the early character work is fun, the starship battle is cool, but as you note the action is over the top, it's exhausting to watch by the end instead of exciting - and not in a deliberate, "war is hell" sort of way.
Yeah he could just fly up there and kill everyone... But his sudden mission to destroy earth makes no sense in the first place. He wanted Picard because he needed a transfusion (or something, it's never made clear why he is ill). Then he just gives up and decides to die in a blaze of glory taking earth with him? And why earth, he should want to destroy Romulus.
I remember I skipped school to watch the premiere of this on HBO when i was a kid. And my mom let me dot it! :D
Good times. I cried when Data died :(
I remember loving this film, I remember watching over and over again
If the jerk director could refer to LeVar as Laverne, LaVar Burton should have called the director Shirley.
Data was never meant to be ageless... Geordi even says in the episode 'Inheritance' “It's part of her ageing program,” states La Forge. “Not only does she *age in appearance like Data* , her vital signs change too.” So like wtf. eh? They should not have cut the Picard / Data scene (these scenes are the reason we watch Star Trek)... uh, the 'Star Wars' part on the Scimitar with the ever-so-convenient spaced hallways, could have been cut back to let the P/D scene in, stupid people. I would like to site 'The Inner Light' here - not one photon torpedo or explosion, and yet the episode is one of the Top 10 best of the series.
True, you can check S7E10 at 32:55.
This video will be a nice birthday present
Happy Birthday!
@@12HedmanLane thank you
Same!!! Great Birthday present for me too
@@ustrekkie92 nice happy birthday
Happy birthday
I've been told for years that I shouldn't like the Scimitar because it's a "Mary Sue" ship... but honestly after watching the Enterprise E kick ass and take names for 2 movies in a row, it was nice to raise the stakes and give the E something that could actually give it a run for its money.
The ship on ship action is one of the main reasons it’s one of my fav Trek films. But it would have been so much better with better character development and focus. It could have done with a longer runtime in order to flesh that out and make sure each character got their “last haraar”
I love Insurrection.
Can't say the same for Nemesis, though.
I love Nemesis and don´t really like Insurrection...The entire premise is actually too stupid and contradicts several things shown during the shows...Saving 600 People,that aren´t even native to a planet...At the cost of refusing to get the fountain of youth..That radioation might´ve actually been a counter to the Borg
The Soundtrack and acting is great though
@@NashmanNash
Rowan made a great review (I don't mean the recent retrospective) about the Insurrection in the past. He found it to be the worst ST film ever and his arguments were pretty compelling.
Insurrection is ok to me... Nemesis is terrible.
Nemesis was so bad it almost killed Star Trek for me. The early 2000's were rough. The Star Wars prequels were awful as well.
@@purefoldnz3070 The use of the word "were" implies past tense. Does that mean the early 2000's and the Star Wars prequels have grown on you?
Thank you so much Rowan for these retrospectives, i find them very enjoyable!
Hey Zachary dud you know this movie csne gotnthe same yer as star wars episode 2
The issue I have with Nemesis is that there seems to be a focus on the "nature v nurture" argument between Picard and Shinzon, yes they share the same DNA which with affect much of their development but with two very opposite lives of course they're radically different people. It seems like a totally moot point.
I'm also always perplexed by Shinzon's desire to target Earth, given that it has never done anything to him. If he'd gone after Romulus and threatened to wipe out the entire population there, I could understand, it would also add a nice dimension to the final battle and mirror Narendra III, with the E-E ready and willing to sacrifice everything to safeguard the Federations oldest enemy, something that could be the beginnings of a lasting peace with the Romulans.
True, Annika Hansen (7 of 9) making an appearance would have made no sense. But Worf's inclusion in this entry made no sense, either, for by then he would have been a member of the Starfleet _Diplomatic Corps_ (ambassador to Quonos).
It ought to be noted that Frakes already had a directing gig, thus making himself unavailable - though Burton emphatically was still available (the very first time that I have become aware of _that_ tidbit).
"...would have united the crews from Deep Space Nine and Voyager..." Has Rowan somehow gotten a hold of the script for that would-be follow-up film? Is it available on-line?
That infamous 'violation' of Commander Troi is actually a callback to an episode from TNG. But then again, the whole film - unlike the preceding three, this entry is totally superfluous since only three feature-length films were allotted for fulfilling the contract for the 'canceled' Season Eight - is arguably a remake of The Wrath of Khan. By both metrics (creativity and money) this is one of THE worst Trek films ever on-screen, with competition from The Final Frontier and Generations (the Duras Sisters are gratuitously killed off in it) for that honour.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this series, thank you for your efforts and hard work.
You nailed this perfectly, being fair to all it's great points and slamming it for it's sins. Great job.
It sort of feels like Stewart and Spiner were the cast members advocating for this particular movie to happen and that the plot indulges them a little too much in response.
It's been quite some time since I last saw this film; however, having just watched this retrospective, it seems what Star Trek fans really 'need' is a Jonathan Frakes 'directors' cut of this film; re-introducing those most beneficial of the Paramount-cut segments, and a general tidying-up of the end product..... Sadly I guess it'll never happen, but it would be interesting to see... 😏
Nemesis is the movie that helped me come up with a new way of thinking about movies. I think, "If I didn't hate this movie, what would I like about this movie?" It not only helps me appreciate what is good, but also more accurately identify what I think is bad.
My always loved scifi scene is the scimitar pomping up for the final blast. Absolutely perfect. The unfolding of the separated wings.... ansolutely gorgeous.
Okay the score is very helpful.
It's a real shame Stuart Baird had no understanding of the characters. There's actually screen test footage of Patrick Stewart and Tom Hardy playing out the first meeting of their characters, and the approach and tone of the characters is far more 'Star Trek' than the final product.
Rick Berman responded to Sirtis, that they never planned to fire her and replace her with Ryan. And if I recall right, Ryan said on a convention panel, that she was not approached for Nemesis. Sirtis tends to spice up stories for her convention panels, so you can take her story with a grain of salt.
What else has Sirtis "spiced up" on?
I am inclined to believe Ryan on her claims (if she says she was never directly approached, then that settles _that_ part of the story). But...Berman is a different matter (he effectively drove Terri Farrell out of DS9 when he refused her proposal to have Jadzia Dax as a recurring character for Season 7). While he arguably had credibly shepherded the franchise with three 24th-century series and three feature-length films (in lieu of an eighth season for TNG), he was/is far, far from a saint 🎬😒
This was my introduction to the Star Trek franchise needless to say it was a rocky start
This movie is my favourite Star Trek simply for the battle scene. So many great moments, like when the Enterprise fires every phaser bank at once, when they score about 7 photon hits in a row, the flanking Warbird’s wing collides with the Enterprise, or when the quantums smash into the lurking Scimitar - awesome. Such a shame it was let down by a heavy-handed studio.
Why did they make the Remans look straight-up evil? They're supposed to be somewhat sympathetic, but they made them look like cheap horror movie monsters.
One thing I've since appreciated since reading Patrick Stewart's 'Making It So', is that 'Nemesis' feels more like a confident feature film, rather than an extended expensive episode, and wonder how it would have been received had it come first instead of 'Generations'..?
Holy crap that potential follow up movie to Nemesis sounds like everything fans wanted.
I think it's actually a common running theme in the bottom half of the Star Trek film series. From a technical standpoint, things are fairly decent and the individual bits are there to make a great film, but they just don't know how to put things together in the right ratios.
I mean action is fine, but it should be in service to the story and the themes, action just for the sake of action is kind of like eating raw sugar just because you want something sweet. Yes, you are theoretically getting what you want but there are better ways to get that aspect of flavour into your system. And they had a great mechanism for this in Nemesis. After all, you literally have age and experience fighting youth and vigour.
Your videos always get me keen to watch Star trek again.
The Paramount suits must have been brain dead not to realize that if you can get Nicholas Meyer, GET HIM!
I don’t understand the criticism of this movie. I love it. Love the characters, love the battle scenes, it’s always been one of my favs.
I’ve always wondered about the idea of Data being ageless. Isn’t he supposed to age according to his mother in the season 7 episode Inhertance?
no, only his mother was supposed to age
I think my biggest problem with the movie was B4. I just didn't understand this plot point. There was already Lore who was basically the same thing, and I think Lore wasn't even mentioned. I get why you might want to kill data, but adding B4 makes no sense to me. I gotta think there was something better to do with Data instead.
I also agree that many of the characters didn't feel true to their history either.
If I'm not mistaken, there are four videos left of the series after this one. Until maybe when the current shows finish (a while after they finish).
Also, next year Strange New Worlds, airs, marking the second time three live action Star Trek television shows run concurrently. Adding in Lower Decks and the more recent Prodigy, we will have five different Star Trek shows running concurrently. As a more recent fan of the series (essentially rushing through the entire franchise in just a few years), and as someone who throughly enjoys Lower Decks and Picard as well the majority of Discovery (it's not as good as Lower Decks or Picard, but it's decent), I can only say I'm genuinely happy for this much Star Trek content. Also, Anson Mount is perfect casting as Pike, and although it didn't make much sense to recast Spock yet again (rather than using either a Micoy look alike or just Zachary Quinto (though Zachary would probably be too expensive)), Ethen Peck did a great job as Spock, and I'm glad he'll inhabit the role for more than just a season of a show. Or part of one, anyway.
Looking forward to the Enterprise retro. I think it's gotten a bit more love as people have watched it on streaming.
I used to think this movie got too much flak, but conversely when I re-watch it I find it really boring
Or at least hard to care about the characters and plot overall
It's probably in my bottom three, but I'll still ranked insurrection is dead last because the entirety of that film is absolutely boring as hell
Imagine what a Meyer written/directed ST10 could have been. I say this solely based off his previous Trek work.
Great review/sum up of Nemesis' strength and weaknesses. I remember being pretty excited for it, then pretty disappointed with it for most of the reasons you mentioned. In addition I felt like the next gen crew seemed "tired" and unenthusiastic to be there, but that could have been the result of bad direction. Ultimately I just never could really suspend my disbelief like I usually do when watching the movie, and kept thinking about how this entire thing was a tacked together, perfunctory money grab with no heart.
I saw this movie during it's first run and the character of Wesley was in it and I don't think he should be in the movie.
They should have let Frakes direct. Choosing a director that has no knowledge of the source is a really bad idea. But hollywood is too driven by image than putting out quality.
This movie is where the newer Star Trek's obsession with making Data "Picard's Spock" began. Data is not Picard's Spock.
As with your previous videos, you nailed it on this one. That movie had and has so much unrealized potential. I wish Jonathan Frakes would do a Should-Have-Been-The-Director's cut, trimming down the fat and adding back those scenes that should have been in there. There are still scenes that are forced and just bizarre, but he or someone could make what's available better. Thanks again! These Respectives are great!
I'm convinced that added that mind assault scene just to be mean to Marina Sirtis for asking for a fair salary. But I have no evidence to confirm that.
When you described the movie that never happened I almost cried. Omg how I would have loved that.
I had no idea that was a possibility.
I wish I lived in the universe where that movie happened 🤔
In hindsight, picking a guy because he directed US Marshals and Executive Decision was not a good idea. Neither of those films are particularly memorable, even if they were successful at the time of their release
My Introduction to Star Trek and Tom Hardy, so I can't Hate this....
But putting that bias aside, I won't deny that Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country was a Much better Send-off film for The Original series' Cast than this was for The Next Generation cast.
They were really hedging their bets. Even in the tagline, "a generation's final journey BEGINS"... like, maybe it's the last one, maybe not, you tell us. The box office definitely decided for them.
I really liked Nemesis. It was a somewhat fresh take on Star Trek. Especially the ship design is one of my favourites.
After just re-watching it now, I think Nemesis is a severely underrated movie
Yup I just watched every single Star Trek film for the first time and this one was probably my favorite. Very underrated and honestly just confused why it got such a cold reception.
My ONLY criticism is some of the action scenes felt cheesy and over the top (I’m thinking specifically the scenes where they find B4 and the scene where Picard and data escape the Reman ship). The space battles were pretty well-done though.
I have paused the video on Tom Hardy played a young Picard. I never knew this, never saw it in Hardy's acting, and it would add to my contrarian view of Hardy being touted much more than he should. That being said, nobody can play Picard like Stewart. Unfathomable! No. 1, you have the helm!
Best Star Trek movie of them all!
I refuse to believe that the romulans are that incompetent just once I want the romulans portrayed good on the big screen
As mangled up as this film is thanks to Baird editing out 30 minutes of it, I still find some enjoyment from the film. But then I grew up on TNG, so the characters will always have a special place in my heart
Man that Nemesis sequel would have been amazing, so many interesting dynamics between the 3 crews.
Get Frakes to re-edit it!!
That said, I did enjoy this movie when it was released.
This is definitely some headcanon worldbuilding spackle, but I always chose to read Janeway's promotion ahead of Picard as the PTSD implied by the inconsistent characterization she written with in Voyager was read by Starfleet as her not being fit for service as a captain, but she was too high profile to retire out of service so they kicked her upstairs into a less stressful administrative role.
Things I remember about Nemesis:
1. It broke the Even-Numbered Trend
2. Data died (not in detail but just as a fact)
3. Young Picard clone (not in detail but from movie posters)