As someone that's been a tinkerer for 30+ years, you're living my dream John, what a great little machine! I have a few small manual mills, a lathe, a handful of 3D printers and a small 50W laser system in my home shop. At work I have a lab full of CNC industrial laser cutters. Plenty of advanced tools with which to putter with, but I'd love to have you're OM-2A in my workshop, the things I could do with that! Been wanting to get into injection molding for years too (but might have to settle for metal casting (lost wax/lost resin) instead), and would like to make molds, so a CNC mill is pretty much a prerequisite (for metal molds that is). You're certainly in an advantageous and unique position to be able to make such a purchase... Would love to have one of these. Thanks for sharing your machine with us!
I learned on an OM-2, so it's quite entertaining seeing it used for someone's passion. Ours had a 50k rpm spindle, and we basically got told to not go past 20k. I wish I still had access to it now, as I'd love to mess around with some micro-milling.
@@JohnSL I actually don't know. I know my teacher atleast understood the concept of SFM a little bit. Perhaps he figured it would prolong the life of the machine. Or perhaps it was his attempt to prevent us from running cheap tools at 3000 sfm because we didn't know any better.
I have an om-2a at work. It came up to the 8th floor in the normal passenger elevator. Haas has made some upgrades to it since we bought it in 08, including an oil mist spindle lube system (along with a new spindle) and a new automatic oiling system. We also had the renishaw tool probe and part probe system installed. It dramatically improves usability imop. The only downside is that it takes up valuable table space, which is already at a premium. Overall, its the best machine in its class for those with serious space / elevator constraints.
I've heard from others that the tool setter takes up valuable space. I think I can make the tool setter work and not be in the way given that I keep the 4th axis on the table and always use a vise. The probe, on the other hand, would still be great for in-process measurements and adjustments via macros even if I didn't keep the tool setter installed. Having macros would be nice as well, as that's a feature my machine didn't come with, and is included with the price of of the WIPS.
The devil in the details? I admittingly was unaware of a ball bar procedure and have sense did a further investigation on this topic. While being outside the scope of this video, awareness of this small detail is invaluable. Thank you for your insight!
Hi John, thanks so much for that very informative video about the OM2. One thing I was surprised you didn’t cover was coolant. Could you possibly make another short video covering that aspect as well on these small machines? One of the biggest worries I have (as a very intermittent user of the machine ) would be coolant: how often would I need to change it, is it easy to change, what kind to use, what kind of mess might I encounter, etc.. Thanks so much! Kevin
You might want to look at the 5 axis vises from Orange. They have a movable fixed jaw and various options for serrated jaws, soft jaws, pallets, zero point fixtures, etc, and are very compact. I can check mine for jaw lift as a test if you want. EDIT: I just checked my vise. The moving jaw lifts about .0003" at 80 ft/lbs on the screw, and the fixed jaw lifts about .0013" Where I am seeing more lift is in the serrajaw insert, I have a suspicion it's stretching the little screws slightly. The whole part ends up lifting about .005" when clamped with the serrajaw, that may be due to deformation of the part or the aforementioned serrated insert. I just put a 123 block on 5/8" tall parallels in the vise and when I clamped it down the block lifts .0002"-.0003" but the parallels stayed tight between the block and the vise without tapping it with a hammer, so the vise is definitely pulling the part down and not lifting it. 80 ft/lbs on this vise is no joke, it really digs the jaws into a piece of aluminum. On a 20 taper machine you could probably get by with a lot less vise pressure than that, so I bet the jaw lift would essentially be zero. The fixed jaw moved horizontally .0017" doing that, but this should be a consistent amount if you always tighten the vise with a torque wrench.
Thanks for the information. I'm currently leaning toward an Mlock 125 Dual (without the middle jaw), as it's about 1" shorter but has great capacity. The other option was the Kurt KTR35, but the capacity is less than I'd like.
@@JohnSL Yeah the Mlock looks like a pretty sweet setup. I was thinking about this too today, you might want to check the jaw lift at the actual jaw iron rather than the part. You might be seeing the same movement I was with the serrated insert lifting instead of the actual vise components.
Love everything you’ve been doing. Did you know you can lower the volume of the machine beeping? It’s underneath the controller. It’s a plastic circle and if you twist it, the vanes cover the speaker holes in the controller. I’m sure you already know but it sounds loud on video lol. Hope that 60 year old mold machine is treating you right! Cheers!
First off, awesome overview. Im basically convinced I need this in my life now. the size and overall precision and repeatability seem about perfect. Secondly - is there a reason why you're not using a fixture plate and something like the SMW Mod Vice? It seems like that would really improve your quality of life - Especially with the limitations you're having with the vice and the overall small work area. For me, changing over to a plate and a few Mod vises from previously using a toolmakers vice or a basic CNC vice changed my life. Stability and stiffness, use of full machine travel, singular and flat Z for long or wide parts that would have needed two matched vises normally, quick part indexing, work stops, repeatability in work holding and indexing, etc. Obviously I dont know what your normal machining work is, but i've got to imagine that because you chose this machine, a plate and low-profile vise would help a bunch.
For the work I do, the vise works very well and that's what I always use. In other words, I've never had a project that didn't fit into my vise (or on my 4th axis). So the value of a fixture plate really depends on what type of work you do.
Schunk's KSC vises are ++ amazing. Crazy accurate. Super fast jaw changes. Easily make your own jaw blanks to keep around. No lift. And available in many many sizes. I have an Orange 6x17.5 and the first Delta vise. The former is way too big for your machine, and the latter is too difficult to work with in an environment where you'll constantly be changing stuff (it is more of a dedicated 5 axis system). They even stock them with both(!) the 52mm and 96mm grid pattern for Lang, 5th Axis, Jergens, etc. The only downside is that once you start playing with Lang/Schunk/Erowa level gear, the common stuff feels... well, homemade. Schunk and Lang in particular, appear as if they were made on a different planet.
@@JohnSL For some reason, I always forget about the MLock guys, even though their gear is pretty great! Having said that, Schunk's KSC 80-125 is about the same price (no dual though)
i went from schunk to smw autoblok due to being closer to their nearest distributor (going from 48 hr service to same-day before 4) and i'd say they're equal in quality. The $500 or so extra for smw first shows in creature comforts and is probably worth it if you got money to spare (don't even bother trying to explain to a boss that has no experience though)
@@angrydragonslayer I've never heard of them! But... now I'm looking at their website - literally everything looks like Schunk? Even the manual vises look like Schunk (which is also Gressel, because Schunk owns them). The zero point stuff looks like AMF. So what is the story with these guys?
@@LumaLabs from what i remember, some of the groups making specialty vises/fixturing were forced together due to the war (italian company founded 1942). it then bought a similar german company. they are amazing in-person, have some of the fanciest stuff (all vises i've bought from them for instance, come with OML Sintergrip jaws as standard) i wish their website didnt suck as much as it does. you can't even find most of the stuff they sell on there. The main vises i buy from them for example: the OML IMG series. in exchange for costing like 20-50% extra, the IMG series is basically a makro-grip vise with 2 big improvements (sintergrip and a protected screw) alongside a lot of smaller ones
Hi John, I have an Orange 2-position vise on my Tormach 770. That vise is much deeper than the 770 Y-axis by a long way. My solution to get the benefits was to run it along the X direction. With some careful placement, I've been able to use a 2-position long vise on a machine that would have had the same problems you're describing with y-axis limits. You might have to remove your 4th to do it, but could be worth it to access the largest possible work area.
I have the same Orange vise on my CM-1. It fits perfectly in the long direction, but John would not be able to leave the 4th axis in place with one of those.
Thanks for the excellent tour of you Office Mill. Could you do one on your 4rth axis unit? I've been wanting to get one but don't know much about them. Thanks!
Certainly a unique machine. Variable speed spindles need high HP to get any torque at low speed and accelerate the spindle. Some manufacturers worry about chip to chip time. Which is deecel spindle to stop change tools and accel spindle again. High speed spindles often need overhaul more often than ordinary ones. They often use ceramic bearings and cost much more to repair. I don't know what Haas charges but a high speed spindle rebuild can exceed $50K. You are lucky to have the 30K spindle for the tiny tools that you use. The 50K spindle would be less practical than yours at low speeds and might cost a fortune to repair. I have a CNC mill with a 25HP 12K spindle at 100 RPM it less torque than a 1 HP Knee mill. You need the torque to tap large holes in steel, it might struggle past 3/8 diameter.
Fortunately, the cost to replace the spindle is around $7.5K, so not crazy. But still, I'd like to avoid that for as long as I can. Are you going to the Bash again this summer? I plan to be there again.
Drip feed is no problem as long as your baud rate is good Always buy a new machine with the probe is cheaper than adding on later Great video You can probably stop the jaw lift with the adjustment in the movable jaw
I tried the adjustment on this vise and that certainly improved it. Now it's about 0.003" on the piranha jaws. I need a better vise to improve beyond that.
@@JohnSLbtw, great overview of your office mill! I have never seen one and I didn't realize how small those tool holders are, no wonder roughing has to be done so gingerly.... I am still supper jealous of your spindle speed every time I have to grab a 0.005"-0.032" OD endmill
@@JohnSL I got WIPS with my CM-1. It's great but the small XY envelope really crimps the tool setter. The WIPS design intent is to do the setup routine once and leave it in place, but I had to take it off the table a few times to make room for work. What makes it worse is you need additional room around the setter for tool motion in and out and for the calibration routines, so you can get cornered very quickly on an OM/CM. Resetting it is not *too* bad, but I finally decided that manually touching off tools is pretty quick and left the tool setter in a drawer. The WIPS touch probe OTOH is game changer and I love that.
Thank you. That helped, and reduced the lift when on parallels to 0.002" and on the piranha jaws to 0.003". That's still more than I would like, but certainly better.
@@JohnSL glad to help. If you are able to tap the top of the workpiece with a rubber dead blow hammer, that will fully seat the workpiece against the parallels so they won’t move. I just found you today, please pardon if I sound condescending or you already know.
Thank you. I always do that when I'm not using the piranha jaws, but didn't think to measure the lift on the parallels AFTER tapping it down. It's pretty obvious now that you mention it. That results in a lift of less than 0.0002", which I can certainly live with. So now I'm less eager to buy a new vise (you just saved me some money). I will have to do a follow-up video with what I learned about vises.
Removing that screw once in a while allows the whole movable jaw to be lifted off for cleaning. The half-ball underneath and the seat in which it sits should be cleaned and greased. When you want good repeatability, snug up the screw when the vise is about to bite into the part and the lift will be reduced to near zero. The jaw should be hard to move at this point. Leaving it tight like that will cause excessive wear, so loosen it between jobs.
great for engraving it looks like. I make stamping dies for silver and gold bars and have to use a speed multiplier 50,000 for rpm in my fadal cnc mill. would love to have this as this type of work is small and perfect for this size.
Hi Sir, I've been watching and learning thru your videos recently, amazing work I must say! I have a couple project I need to bring to life but with a 3 axis I'm a bit in a struggle, you can see the bugy project in my channel if wanna take a look, 1/32 scale offroad car. I so far made chassis plate and suspension arms in alu but i'd like to make also the gerbox case and differentials housings. In case of chance, where could i contact you to show you the parts and have maybe a hint on how to modify them to ease machining? Let me know, Loris
I agree. But I know others have the opinion that they're entry-level machines. Then again, they're "entry level" prices for those people as well. In this case I think you really do get what you pay for.
@@JohnSL that makes sense. Your right. I have one and like it, but wish there were hard jaws. I will either make my own or wait till he makes them. Have you looked at orange vise's 5 axis vises? They are nice and low profile
In addition, does anybody have an opinion about DATRON machines, besides them being expensive: quality, very applicable for many tasks, being able to use multiple materials, etc..?
I believe they're mostly referring to the tool hold and collet. I make sure I buy ones that are pre-balanced for at least 30K RPM. I have never found information on balancing the combination of the holder and end mill.
@@JohnSL I here need G2.5/24000 (but with SK30). The balancing always refers to the *complete* tool. For normal end mill cutters that is not so critical (if you use balanced nuts), but for milling heads it is, because the force raises with diameter and square of the speed and the inserts have tolerances. A good balancing not only massively reduces the forces (and wear) on the spindle bearings but also increases the surface quality and the lifetime of the inserts. Here in Germany there are some balancing tools available - I think, also in the US.
I did look at them, but they seemed to be focused on using soft jaws, which I very rarely do. By the way, I will have a follow-up. I've learned a lot more about vises and work holding as a result of comments from viewers and realized that the tapping in of the part onto the parallels pretty much makes the jaw lift a non-issue unless I'm using the piranha jaws, which should really only be used for first ops.
how are you liking the HRT110 rotory? i just bought a tr110 5th trunnion, im a little worried about the small breaking force when off center drilling/cutting
I don't have a lot of experience with it. I've only used it for 3+1 milling and the break seems to be more than strong enough. But again, I've only used it for a few jobs.
@@JohnSL just got my tr110 home and noticed i dont have it in my selectable rotoys list, any chance you could send me some photos or a video showing the hrt110 rotory parameters? they will be identical as the TR110 s just 2 hrt110's boltd together. (parameter screens 43 A bit SW A, 269 A bit SW b, A param A, A param B, A param C. there in the parameters screen and you just page down to get to them.
There are other vises, like Kurt, Orange, Mlock, etc. that have mechanisms to pull the vise down as well. So yes, a tool makers vise is an option. But not the only option.
For the cutting parameters. How much do you stay in those guidelines? How is it calculated?surely a 1/8” tool can run greater then 20% DOC with a 25% WOC if a 3/8” is ok to run at those guidelines.
I mainly apply those guidelines to the 3/8" diameter end mill I use for roughing. For the smaller end mills, I just figure out what makes the most sense with G-Wizard.
@@JohnSL ok that makes sense. So I’d assume I just try to avoid a max cutting force of 30lbs? Or do you have a general rule of thumb that your using to calculate? I use FS wizard
Did you find that cutting force in G-Wizard? I looked and I'm not seeing it. But the answer is I mostly stick to 20% for both WOC and DOC as the max for adaptive roughing down to, but not including, 1/8" end mills. At that size, it's more about what the tool can take because I figure those end mills will break before being able to apply the same force as 3/8" at 20% WOC and DOC. So not precise, but works for me. Put another way, I tend to be conservative because for most of what I do, the machine spends most of it's time with smaller end mills.
It seems like their fixture plate plus a mod vise wouldn't be that different in prices for a good quality vise from Kurt (their toolroom vise). Since every job I do is different, I've found the vise works well for me. It seems that with a mod vise I'd have to be moving one of the jaws all the time. What is your experience?
@@JohnSL I wish I would have gone with the tool room vise personally or a 5th axis self centering style vise. You will also need to make a riser or make provisions for the 2 bosses on the bottom of the 4th axis
@@JohnSL I have the Mod-Vise/SMW plate on my Tormach 770 and I only use the Mod-Vise when something won't fit my 4" vise. Otherwise a real vise is easier
Is this on an OM-2A? Even so, as Nick pointed out below, it's longer than the vise I have now. My goal is to get a shorter vise so I have better clearance for my speed handle. I'm looking at an Mlock 125 dual, which is a little less than 11" from the back to the front of the hex on the screw.
I don't see how to message you on TH-cam. But you can send me an email (available from a button in the About tab of my channel. Or send a request to join the Office/Compact Mill group I run on Facebook (you must answer the questions): facebook.com/groups/1005157499968899
Why do you need 3/8” or below for roughing with a 5hp spindle and why do they recommend 10,000rpm or more? Once you understand how to calculate metal removal rate, horsepower consumption and consider the HP/torque curve of your machine, you’ll understand. Your 0.0006” runout isn’t good, that’s crap. On small diameter tools with runout like that, your runout can exceed your feed per tooth. That’ll lead to premature tool breakage and irregular wear. Your spindle load peaking at start up isn’t uncommon. Again; consider the torque curve of your machine. Steep taper spindles are not great for high rpm use- consider the effects of the gripper fingers on a retention knob vs the retention system of a hollow shank taper.
It's because the spindle is a 30K RPM ISO-20 spindle. It's not designed to take heavy side loads. I'd rather follow the guidance than have to buy a new spindle.
such a cool little mill. Glad to see your still running the tri fly. The 1/2 in shank has been a top seller since I made this one for you.
My previous employer had 12 of these for production. They worked well for our needs. Would definitely want one in my garage at home for personal use.
Perfect! Thanks for the indepth tour, all very interesting and useful info 👍.
Glad it was helpful!
As someone that's been a tinkerer for 30+ years, you're living my dream John, what a great little machine! I have a few small manual mills, a lathe, a handful of 3D printers and a small 50W laser system in my home shop. At work I have a lab full of CNC industrial laser cutters. Plenty of advanced tools with which to putter with, but I'd love to have you're OM-2A in my workshop, the things I could do with that! Been wanting to get into injection molding for years too (but might have to settle for metal casting (lost wax/lost resin) instead), and would like to make molds, so a CNC mill is pretty much a prerequisite (for metal molds that is).
You're certainly in an advantageous and unique position to be able to make such a purchase... Would love to have one of these. Thanks for sharing your machine with us!
I learned on an OM-2, so it's quite entertaining seeing it used for someone's passion. Ours had a 50k rpm spindle, and we basically got told to not go past 20k. I wish I still had access to it now, as I'd love to mess around with some micro-milling.
Any idea why they set an arbitrary limit of 20K? I use my at 30K quite frequently with small tools.
@@JohnSL I actually don't know. I know my teacher atleast understood the concept of SFM a little bit. Perhaps he figured it would prolong the life of the machine. Or perhaps it was his attempt to prevent us from running cheap tools at 3000 sfm because we didn't know any better.
I have an om-2a at work. It came up to the 8th floor in the normal passenger elevator. Haas has made some upgrades to it since we bought it in 08, including an oil mist spindle lube system (along with a new spindle) and a new automatic oiling system. We also had the renishaw tool probe and part probe system installed. It dramatically improves usability imop. The only downside is that it takes up valuable table space, which is already at a premium. Overall, its the best machine in its class for those with serious space / elevator constraints.
I've heard from others that the tool setter takes up valuable space. I think I can make the tool setter work and not be in the way given that I keep the 4th axis on the table and always use a vise. The probe, on the other hand, would still be great for in-process measurements and adjustments via macros even if I didn't keep the tool setter installed. Having macros would be nice as well, as that's a feature my machine didn't come with, and is included with the price of of the WIPS.
The devil in the details? I admittingly was unaware of a ball bar procedure and have sense did a further investigation on this topic. While being outside the scope of this video, awareness of this small detail is invaluable. Thank you for your insight!
Glad you found something useful.
Realized i just listened to the within tolerance podcast with you on and thats why you sounded so familiar lol
Hope you enjoyed it.
Hi John, thanks so much for that very informative video about the OM2. One thing I was surprised you didn’t cover was coolant. Could you possibly make another short video covering that aspect as well on these small machines? One of the biggest worries I have (as a very intermittent user of the machine ) would be coolant: how often would I need to change it, is it easy to change, what kind to use, what kind of mess might I encounter, etc.. Thanks so much! Kevin
I covered coolant in this video: th-cam.com/video/kbKS5TzZwa4/w-d-xo.html
You might want to look at the 5 axis vises from Orange. They have a movable fixed jaw and various options for serrated jaws, soft jaws, pallets, zero point fixtures, etc, and are very compact. I can check mine for jaw lift as a test if you want.
EDIT: I just checked my vise. The moving jaw lifts about .0003" at 80 ft/lbs on the screw, and the fixed jaw lifts about .0013" Where I am seeing more lift is in the serrajaw insert, I have a suspicion it's stretching the little screws slightly. The whole part ends up lifting about .005" when clamped with the serrajaw, that may be due to deformation of the part or the aforementioned serrated insert. I just put a 123 block on 5/8" tall parallels in the vise and when I clamped it down the block lifts .0002"-.0003" but the parallels stayed tight between the block and the vise without tapping it with a hammer, so the vise is definitely pulling the part down and not lifting it. 80 ft/lbs on this vise is no joke, it really digs the jaws into a piece of aluminum. On a 20 taper machine you could probably get by with a lot less vise pressure than that, so I bet the jaw lift would essentially be zero. The fixed jaw moved horizontally .0017" doing that, but this should be a consistent amount if you always tighten the vise with a torque wrench.
Thanks for the information. I'm currently leaning toward an Mlock 125 Dual (without the middle jaw), as it's about 1" shorter but has great capacity. The other option was the Kurt KTR35, but the capacity is less than I'd like.
@@JohnSL Yeah the Mlock looks like a pretty sweet setup. I was thinking about this too today, you might want to check the jaw lift at the actual jaw iron rather than the part. You might be seeing the same movement I was with the serrated insert lifting instead of the actual vise components.
Love everything you’ve been doing. Did you know you can lower the volume of the machine beeping? It’s underneath the controller. It’s a plastic circle and if you twist it, the vanes cover the speaker holes in the controller. I’m sure you already know but it sounds loud on video lol. Hope that 60 year old mold machine is treating you right! Cheers!
An interesting overview of an interesting machine. It's clearly well suited to your particular needs.
First off, awesome overview. Im basically convinced I need this in my life now. the size and overall precision and repeatability seem about perfect.
Secondly - is there a reason why you're not using a fixture plate and something like the SMW Mod Vice? It seems like that would really improve your quality of life - Especially with the limitations you're having with the vice and the overall small work area. For me, changing over to a plate and a few Mod vises from previously using a toolmakers vice or a basic CNC vice changed my life. Stability and stiffness, use of full machine travel, singular and flat Z for long or wide parts that would have needed two matched vises normally, quick part indexing, work stops, repeatability in work holding and indexing, etc.
Obviously I dont know what your normal machining work is, but i've got to imagine that because you chose this machine, a plate and low-profile vise would help a bunch.
For the work I do, the vise works very well and that's what I always use. In other words, I've never had a project that didn't fit into my vise (or on my 4th axis). So the value of a fixture plate really depends on what type of work you do.
Excellent overview, very useful info, thanks
Schunk's KSC vises are ++ amazing. Crazy accurate. Super fast jaw changes. Easily make your own jaw blanks to keep around. No lift. And available in many many sizes. I have an Orange 6x17.5 and the first Delta vise. The former is way too big for your machine, and the latter is too difficult to work with in an environment where you'll constantly be changing stuff (it is more of a dedicated 5 axis system). They even stock them with both(!) the 52mm and 96mm grid pattern for Lang, 5th Axis, Jergens, etc.
The only downside is that once you start playing with Lang/Schunk/Erowa level gear, the common stuff feels... well, homemade. Schunk and Lang in particular, appear as if they were made on a different planet.
And their price reflects that. I'm leaning toward an Mlock 125 Dual, which looks like it's the perfect match between size and capacity.
@@JohnSL For some reason, I always forget about the MLock guys, even though their gear is pretty great!
Having said that, Schunk's KSC 80-125 is about the same price (no dual though)
i went from schunk to smw autoblok due to being closer to their nearest distributor (going from 48 hr service to same-day before 4) and i'd say they're equal in quality. The $500 or so extra for smw first shows in creature comforts and is probably worth it if you got money to spare (don't even bother trying to explain to a boss that has no experience though)
@@angrydragonslayer I've never heard of them! But... now I'm looking at their website - literally everything looks like Schunk?
Even the manual vises look like Schunk (which is also Gressel, because Schunk owns them). The zero point stuff looks like AMF. So what is the story with these guys?
@@LumaLabs from what i remember, some of the groups making specialty vises/fixturing were forced together due to the war (italian company founded 1942). it then bought a similar german company.
they are amazing in-person, have some of the fanciest stuff (all vises i've bought from them for instance, come with OML Sintergrip jaws as standard)
i wish their website didnt suck as much as it does. you can't even find most of the stuff they sell on there. The main vises i buy from them for example: the OML IMG series.
in exchange for costing like 20-50% extra, the IMG series is basically a makro-grip vise with 2 big improvements (sintergrip and a protected screw) alongside a lot of smaller ones
I like your clear, Easy to understand, English.
Thank you.
Hi John, I have an Orange 2-position vise on my Tormach 770. That vise is much deeper than the 770 Y-axis by a long way. My solution to get the benefits was to run it along the X direction. With some careful placement, I've been able to use a 2-position long vise on a machine that would have had the same problems you're describing with y-axis limits. You might have to remove your 4th to do it, but could be worth it to access the largest possible work area.
I have the same Orange vise on my CM-1. It fits perfectly in the long direction, but John would not be able to leave the 4th axis in place with one of those.
Thanks for the excellent tour of you Office Mill. Could you do one on your 4rth axis unit? I've been wanting to get one but don't know much about them. Thanks!
Yes, that's on my backlog of videos to do. What questions would you like me to answer?
Certainly a unique machine. Variable speed spindles need high HP to get any torque at low speed and accelerate the spindle.
Some manufacturers worry about chip to chip time. Which is deecel spindle to stop change tools and accel spindle again. High speed spindles often need overhaul more often than ordinary ones. They often use ceramic bearings and cost much more to repair. I don't know what Haas charges but a high speed spindle rebuild can exceed $50K. You are lucky to have the 30K spindle for the tiny tools that you use. The 50K spindle would be less practical than yours at low speeds and might cost a fortune to repair. I have a CNC mill with a 25HP 12K spindle at 100 RPM it less torque than a 1 HP Knee mill. You need the torque to tap large holes in steel, it might struggle past 3/8 diameter.
Fortunately, the cost to replace the spindle is around $7.5K, so not crazy. But still, I'd like to avoid that for as long as I can. Are you going to the Bash again this summer? I plan to be there again.
Great video John! Very informative. Looks like a perfect machine for what you do!
Thanks 👍I think so. After 3 years I have no regrets and still love the machine.
Drip feed is no problem as long as your baud rate is good
Always buy a new machine with the probe is cheaper than adding on later
Great video
You can probably stop the jaw lift with the adjustment in the movable jaw
I tried the adjustment on this vise and that certainly improved it. Now it's about 0.003" on the piranha jaws. I need a better vise to improve beyond that.
if you thought the tool changer was a nice luxury, the WIPS will spoil you
I'm looking forward to being spoiled 😉
@@JohnSLbtw, great overview of your office mill! I have never seen one and I didn't realize how small those tool holders are, no wonder roughing has to be done so gingerly.... I am still supper jealous of your spindle speed every time I have to grab a 0.005"-0.032" OD endmill
@@JohnSL I got WIPS with my CM-1. It's great but the small XY envelope really crimps the tool setter. The WIPS design intent is to do the setup routine once and leave it in place, but I had to take it off the table a few times to make room for work. What makes it worse is you need additional room around the setter for tool motion in and out and for the calibration routines, so you can get cornered very quickly on an OM/CM. Resetting it is not *too* bad, but I finally decided that manually touching off tools is pretty quick and left the tool setter in a drawer. The WIPS touch probe OTOH is game changer and I love that.
Jaw lift is partly due to the center set screw on the vise being loose. Snug that up and you’ll get less if none.
Thank you. That helped, and reduced the lift when on parallels to 0.002" and on the piranha jaws to 0.003". That's still more than I would like, but certainly better.
@@JohnSL glad to help. If you are able to tap the top of the workpiece with a rubber dead blow hammer, that will fully seat the workpiece against the parallels so they won’t move.
I just found you today, please pardon if I sound condescending or you already know.
Thank you. I always do that when I'm not using the piranha jaws, but didn't think to measure the lift on the parallels AFTER tapping it down. It's pretty obvious now that you mention it. That results in a lift of less than 0.0002", which I can certainly live with. So now I'm less eager to buy a new vise (you just saved me some money). I will have to do a follow-up video with what I learned about vises.
Removing that screw once in a while allows the whole movable jaw to be lifted off for cleaning. The half-ball underneath and the seat in which it sits should be cleaned and greased. When you want good repeatability, snug up the screw when the vise is about to bite into the part and the lift will be reduced to near zero. The jaw should be hard to move at this point. Leaving it tight like that will cause excessive wear, so loosen it between jobs.
Very nice machine.
Great video!👍
Check the runout on the spindle taper or a test bar, not a random tool you just chucked up.
great for engraving it looks like. I make stamping dies for silver and gold bars and have to use a speed multiplier 50,000 for rpm in my fadal cnc mill. would love to have this as this type of work is small and perfect for this size.
Hi Sir,
I've been watching and learning thru your videos recently, amazing work I must say!
I have a couple project I need to bring to life but with a 3 axis I'm a bit in a struggle, you can see the bugy project in my channel if wanna take a look, 1/32 scale offroad car.
I so far made chassis plate and suspension arms in alu but i'd like to make also the gerbox case and differentials housings.
In case of chance, where could i contact you to show you the parts and have maybe a hint on how to modify them to ease machining?
Let me know,
Loris
How much would it be for you to make me a couple like five cavity fishing lure molds
If Haas makes it, it's a great machine. Just keep in mind it's a medium duty machine.
I agree. But I know others have the opinion that they're entry-level machines. Then again, they're "entry level" prices for those people as well. In this case I think you really do get what you pay for.
Very cool little machine. I bought a matsurra mc-510-vg. It still doesn't work :(
I hope you get it running soon. Was it an older machine with a price that was too good to pass up?
@@JohnSL it was running when I bought it. Came with 30 x bt 40 tool holders. I payed $5000 for it plus $1000 to riggers
Is there like a soft start on the spindle drive?
This is cool. Where are you from? could I send you a pic of a couple of parts and see what you think how easy difficult It would be to mould? thanks
Sure. You can get my email on the About tab of my TH-cam page.
Hi John, Love the video been really useful for me.
Quick question what t nut size do you use? can't find the size anywhere on the haas website.
I don't remember where I found that information, but I did find it. The thin part of the T is 11mm wide and the slot is 20mm wide.
99.999998% of the time Drip feed is perfect.
Great video! What an interesting machine. You should check out the Flux Workholding Vise. That may solve some of your vise issues!
I have looked at their vise, and the focus I see is on soft jaws. I very rarely use soft jaws, so the Flux didn't seem like the right fit.
@@JohnSL that makes sense. Your right. I have one and like it, but wish there were hard jaws. I will either make my own or wait till he makes them. Have you looked at orange vise's 5 axis vises? They are nice and low profile
if one have a job on the machine that pays it ... nothing for tinkeres nice video
You must have had a...versatile and modular vise...with zero clamp plate....the best for you...using pneumatic systems ..🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪
In addition, does anybody have an opinion about DATRON machines, besides them being expensive: quality, very applicable for many tasks, being able to use multiple materials, etc..?
No 1x1x1 test cube? Well the barbell test trumps that anyhow.
In the instructions you have shown one can read about G2.5 at 30000rpm. How do you the balancing of your tools (especially the milling heads)?
I believe they're mostly referring to the tool hold and collet. I make sure I buy ones that are pre-balanced for at least 30K RPM. I have never found information on balancing the combination of the holder and end mill.
@@JohnSL I here need G2.5/24000 (but with SK30). The balancing always refers to the *complete* tool. For normal end mill cutters that is not so critical (if you use balanced nuts), but for milling heads it is, because the force raises with diameter and square of the speed and the inserts have tolerances. A good balancing not only massively reduces the forces (and wear) on the spindle bearings but also increases the surface quality and the lifetime of the inserts. Here in Germany there are some balancing tools available - I think, also in the US.
Have you looked at the flux workholding vises? They might be a good fit.
I did look at them, but they seemed to be focused on using soft jaws, which I very rarely do. By the way, I will have a follow-up. I've learned a lot more about vises and work holding as a result of comments from viewers and realized that the tapping in of the part onto the parallels pretty much makes the jaw lift a non-issue unless I'm using the piranha jaws, which should really only be used for first ops.
how are you liking the HRT110 rotory? i just bought a tr110 5th trunnion, im a little worried about the small breaking force when off center drilling/cutting
I don't have a lot of experience with it. I've only used it for 3+1 milling and the break seems to be more than strong enough. But again, I've only used it for a few jobs.
@@JohnSL cool. thanks for the reply, and thanks for all the content, its very interesting and informative :)
@@JohnSL just got my tr110 home and noticed i dont have it in my selectable rotoys list, any chance you could send me some photos or a video showing the hrt110 rotory parameters? they will be identical as the TR110 s just 2 hrt110's boltd together. (parameter screens 43 A bit SW A, 269 A bit SW b, A param A, A param B, A param C. there in the parameters screen and you just page down to get to them.
You need precision tool makers vises', the jaw pulls down and the back jaw isn't bolted on.
There are other vises, like Kurt, Orange, Mlock, etc. that have mechanisms to pull the vise down as well. So yes, a tool makers vise is an option. But not the only option.
For the cutting parameters. How much do you stay in those guidelines? How is it calculated?surely a 1/8” tool can run greater then 20% DOC with a 25% WOC if a 3/8” is ok to run at those guidelines.
I mainly apply those guidelines to the 3/8" diameter end mill I use for roughing. For the smaller end mills, I just figure out what makes the most sense with G-Wizard.
@@JohnSL ok that makes sense.
So I’d assume I just try to avoid a max cutting force of 30lbs? Or do you have a general rule of thumb that your using to calculate? I use FS wizard
Did you find that cutting force in G-Wizard? I looked and I'm not seeing it. But the answer is I mostly stick to 20% for both WOC and DOC as the max for adaptive roughing down to, but not including, 1/8" end mills. At that size, it's more about what the tool can take because I figure those end mills will break before being able to apply the same force as 3/8" at 20% WOC and DOC. So not precise, but works for me. Put another way, I tend to be conservative because for most of what I do, the machine spends most of it's time with smaller end mills.
@@JohnSL those numbers were with cutting titanium
I have 4 small pieces I need molds for my BusterBeagle MK3 machine I will be purchasing soon do you make molds?
Yes I do. You can get my email contact from there about tab on my TH-cam page.
Where do you find used listings for machines like this?
I happened to find it on Facebook. But it was also on eBay at the time. And I've seen others appear from time to time on eBay.
tighten the jaws and beat the part down with a club is standard procedure with crappy vices.. :)
Time to look at Saunders mini pallet and 1/4" mod vise. (The lower z may be a problem tho, you may need to make a riser.)
SMW makes a cm-1 fixture plate which is an identical fit for the OM-2.
I have it on my om2
It seems like their fixture plate plus a mod vise wouldn't be that different in prices for a good quality vise from Kurt (their toolroom vise). Since every job I do is different, I've found the vise works well for me. It seems that with a mod vise I'd have to be moving one of the jaws all the time. What is your experience?
@@JohnSL it’s honestly pretty annoying
@@JohnSL I wish I would have gone with the tool room vise personally or a 5th axis self centering style vise. You will also need to make a riser or make provisions for the 2 bosses on the bottom of the 4th axis
@@JohnSL I have the Mod-Vise/SMW plate on my Tormach 770 and I only use the Mod-Vise when something won't fit my 4" vise. Otherwise a real vise is easier
is the 4th axis made by HAAS?
Yes, it's an HRT-110. I believe this is the smallest 4th they make, which therefore is a good choice for the smallest VMC they make.
Could you please explain the labeling/tag system?
I documented it in this video: th-cam.com/video/IfqCee8Ess8/w-d-xo.html
Kurt DX-4 will fit.
On the spec sheet it shows 13.7" for that vise from the back to the front of the screw. John's vise shows 12" on that same dimension.
@@nickp4793 I can show a picture of it on the table if u like
Is this on an OM-2A? Even so, as Nick pointed out below, it's longer than the vise I have now. My goal is to get a shorter vise so I have better clearance for my speed handle. I'm looking at an Mlock 125 dual, which is a little less than 11" from the back to the front of the hex on the screw.
@@JohnSL yes it’s on-2a message me if u need and I can show you what it looks like.
I don't see how to message you on TH-cam. But you can send me an email (available from a button in the About tab of my channel. Or send a request to join the Office/Compact Mill group I run on Facebook (you must answer the questions): facebook.com/groups/1005157499968899
Have the WIPS at work money well spent
Why do you need 3/8” or below for roughing with a 5hp spindle and why do they recommend 10,000rpm or more? Once you understand how to calculate metal removal rate, horsepower consumption and consider the HP/torque curve of your machine, you’ll understand.
Your 0.0006” runout isn’t good, that’s crap. On small diameter tools with runout like that, your runout can exceed your feed per tooth. That’ll lead to premature tool breakage and irregular wear.
Your spindle load peaking at start up isn’t uncommon. Again; consider the torque curve of your machine.
Steep taper spindles are not great for high rpm use- consider the effects of the gripper fingers on a retention knob vs the retention system of a hollow shank taper.
It's because the spindle is a 30K RPM ISO-20 spindle. It's not designed to take heavy side loads. I'd rather follow the guidance than have to buy a new spindle.
@@JohnSL Sure, that’s part of it, but you don’t think larger spindles with more HP have the same characteristics?
90000 wrong answer-----------------used mazak -----------45000 ----10 x s the power
I paid $22K, not $90K. Plus, this was small enough to fit into my home shop. $22K was already above my budget for a hobby machine.
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