StarTrek Dominion War: Section 31
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2017
- Welcome back to the StarTrek Dominion War series. Today we take a look at Section 31. The shadow broker of the United Federation of Planets. Is Section 31 one of the most vile organizations? Or is it required for peace? We break it down.
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Hey Guys, as I stated in the video but will put here.. Either this week or next - I am going to start the next Trek Series. I was thinking perhaps 'before The Federation' - a look at the empires before the federation even existed. What do you guys think? Is there a different break down series of Star Trek you would like me to do? Reply to this comment with your thoughts.
Lore Reloaded some of the thing that you be saying about Star Trek is wrong
+Flip Money I look forward to you pointing out what and why.
Thats a great idea
If you are going to cover an empire before the Federation or a specific country that joined the Coalition for a United Earth, I would appreciate it if you could cover the USA, after WW3 if had to be different than the USA we know today. Thank you and have a good day.
That would be interesting, some pre-Federation political context. Go for it!
"The Federation was naive". Shows picture of Wesley Crusher.
10/10 :-)
Section 31 allowed the rest of the Federation to live in LaLa Land.
Thomas Kolter Section 31’s involvements were like a roller coaster, they arose during the early days of the Federation of Planets, then they pulled back and rose to occasion against during the Klingon-Federation Cold War, they kept a low profile for an extended period of time before Wolf 359 came along, and they’ve slowly built up ever since before the Dominion War thrusted their way again.
They were a neccesary evil....i enjoyed the episode on ds9 when bashir was used by section 31 on romulus
Star Fleet and the United Federation of Planets are complacent naive fools. They let their combat experience, weapons, strategy, tactics, and ship design lax to the point of near total entropy. It's no wonder they got their asses best time and again. Even the phased small arms are less efficient compared to their opponents and the kinetic weapon small arms that came before them.
"The Federation needs men like you doctor men of conscience, men of principle, and men who could sleep at night. You're also the reason Section 31 exists. Someone also should exist to protect me like you from a universe that doesn't share sense of right and wrong."
--Luther Sloan, inter arma enim silent leges
Sloan was right.
The existence of Section 31 was one of the most startling aspects of ST: TNG to me; my reaction pretty much follows Bashir's. It first seemed a nightmare, an atavistic perversion of everything the Federation stands for... Then, as the magnitude of the threat S31 was attempting to meet (in Bashir's era, the Dominion) became clearer, I had to concede that they had their uses. Finally, I realized I couldn't in all conscience simply dismiss S31 and its operatives as reactionary monsters: they were more complex and their enemies more dangerous too pigeonhole so readily. Idealists like Bashir and utter pragmatists like S31 are equally vital to the Federation.
wright534 DS9.
It's hard to argue with devils and demons.. if they're saving paradise..so to say..
I stand corrected, sir!
Your post was great though!
Pretty much, yeah. And from what I recall, Sloan for one never denied his methods were horrible; just that the alternatives were even worse.
During the 23th century war with the klingons the Federation was losing, then the crucial klingon moon Praxis explodes and the klingon sue for peace! Coincidence?! Unlikely.
the federation wasn't loosing, in TOS the federation was more militarized and went head to head with the klingons and when Praxis exploded some of the admirals wanted to send federation fleets against the klingons to destroy them once and for all
Neither "side" was losing. The Organians... for reasons unknown, suddenly disappeared. The Klingons and Federation had been still expanding throughout that timeframe, this required both fleets to grow in size and readiness for war. The Klingon Empire was obviously the more militaristic of the two, committed to expansion through conquest. The Federation was expanding in relative peace through diplomacy, but had a vested interest in maintaining a huge, advanced, and able military force to protect themselves from Romulan aggression, potential Klingon attacks, and secondary powers, including pirate organizations.
Without the Klingons as serious threat, Command would consider putting much of the fleet in reserve and storage. After Kitomer peace talks, the fleet would have a more balanced design philosophy committed to exploration and humanitarian roles.
While I know it may not be considered canon, in the "Abramsverse" timeline, in the "postquel" comic book series, Praxis was destroyed by Section 31 agent John Harrison just before his
reprogramming fails and he realizes who he is, Khan Noonien Singh.
Section31 will do what Federation won't do and can't do without giving itself up. Maybe there is a devil protecting paradise.
Indeed.. Staying in the shadows to keep people clean..
Section 31 = NSA
I would actually say Section 31 would be more equivalent to America's Special Activities Division of the CIA, who are responsible for covert political action. The UK used to have a similar group known as the Special Political Action wing until it was shut down in the late 70's. Today, the capability for the United Kingdom would be MI6's E Squadron/The Increment. SAD for the CIA and E Squadron for the Brits are their equivalent "dirty tricks" divisions, the guy's who do the nasty shit too sensitive for a Government to ever acknowledge it had a hand in!
The CIA's "Special Activities Division" is a paramilitary spec-ops outfit, drawn mostly from former members of SOCOM units like Delta, Special Forces, DEVGRU, etc.
Yeah, Humanity is not a species you should be near because the Intel Agency will steal your data and tech to use for slow milking blackmail, and if you cry for assistance or war against the UFP/StarFleet they will kill you in the most savage and ungodly ways possible. How come the Q didn't restrain theses assholes?!
In my opinion Section 31 is crucial for the survival of The Federation and their ideals. Because Section 31 is willing to do anything to protect The Federation.
Pragmatically, I completely agree. I can't see a world where the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order exist - and them not be vital.
That's right and the Federation council and starfleet command know that . That's why it will always exist.
In response to your last comment in the vid RE Bashir dismantling Section 31, It would be interesting if instead, when he became head of starfleet medical, he took slones place and joined 31, if in some small part to reign in the worst elements of the organisation and maintain peace/stability in the alpha quadrant.
He has an in depth knowledge of how the section runs as well as actually going inside the mind of slone, I'd like to see a story where after slone's death he realizes the necessity of 31, we also saw how he was willing to undermine the federation in an attempt to lose the war faster when he believed the fed alliance would ultimately lose, demonstating a pragmatic view to sacrifice for the greater saving of lives.
Basically S31 a necessary evil.
+Elandil5 while I completely agree, Section 31 could also bring the federation down if the other empires found out that starfleet allowed them to do some of the horrible things they have done, would the klingon empire stand by if section 31 was messing with their internal politics(maybe a bad one to pick as fed/kdf relations are complicated)? I am sure the Vulcan's would understand it is a logical things but what about other races like the Andorians and so on.
***edit and wow you know that would be a great story to follow up on in a future show post ds9/voyager. sadly it likely will never happen CBS/Paramount etc never give Trek the love it deserves(also why while I love trek I also hate it because it could be so much more and we just will never get it because of CBS/Paramount).
From what I could figure, and this isn't from Canon, that Section 31 doesn't want to be a Tal Sh'r or an Obsidian order, they want to remain in the shadows. They believe in much of the ideas and promise of the Federation as Kirk or Picard. They, Section 31, will remain secret always in the shadows watching.
I think I agree that they aren't trying to coopt the federation, and believe they do what others can't so people can live in paradise.
The Tal shiar and the Obsidian order are in the business of ideological subversion, where the operatives are called upon to spy on their own people to keep the people's views in line with the views of the state. Section 31 exist solely to protect the Federation from outsiders, with Starfleet intelligence operating as a tame and docile cover. This allows section 31 to exist, without having to interact with the general population at all.
The downside is that it's very difficult for Section 31 to recruit. As making the wrong move can expose the organization, whereas the Obsidian order can quite easily recruit without the risk of exposing themselves. The Obsidian order keeps secrets, while the very existence of Section 31 is the greatest secret.
I wanted to see a series called "Section 31 The secret history of the Federation" I think that would be great. All the stories from all the series that just seem to end with out finding out what happened to the threats could have been dealt with by 31.
I found quite a few fan theories..almost for every issue that is never explained - including why the Time Agents don't stop many of the time travel stories..
In the Trek books by William Shatner, Section 31's very first act was unifying the Earth. Every country on earth was about to abolish all boarders for a one world gov't except for Australia. Yet, days before Australia officially declared their refusal there was a massive terrorist bombing that killed off the majority conservative party and left only the minority liberal party left who immediately agreed to join the one world gov't. The black ops group admitted to this.
@@wdcain1 what is the book name?
I don't remember. It was apart of the trilogy where the Federation was being invaded by the mirror, mirror universe and Kirk teamed up with his doppleganger. I haven't read it since the 90s.
Section 31: The good guys who do bad things, so the other good guys don't have to.
Living in the shadows, so people can bask in the light?
I would have loved to see Picard at his most indignant address the issue of Section 31. :) They are basically the Cerberus of Star Trek, doing the dirty work that needs to be done so everyone can sleep softly in their beds at night.
Given his speech in the Episode 'The Drumhead' and such - I think it would ahve been very interesting.
Yep that's the exact parallel is Cerberus or even the Spectres in Mass Effect, Which would mean I wouldn't like them but I would help them and understand them.
I don't about them being Cerberus - my understanding is that Cerberus of Mass Effect (assuming this is what we're talking about) is a Human Supremacist organization that wants humans at the top of the Galactic heap, and is willing to put them there by any means necessary, with Cerberus running things - if the threat of the Reapers hadn't come along, they would probably have been more antagonistic.
Section 31 on the other hand, is more inclusive of other races of the Federation. They want to protect the Federation against its enemies by any means necessary, but they aren't putting any one race/species above any other. They also don't seem interested in ruling the Federation, preferring to stay in the shadows.
"that wants humans at the top of the Galactic heap, and is willing to put them there by any means necessary"
AND
"They want to protect the Federation against its enemies by any means necessary"
Who runs the Federation?, The difference between the two is minimal at best.
I think spycraft has always been a part of every advanced modern culture, especially when rivals also have powerful intelligence and counterintelligence organs like the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order, not to mention enemies like the Dominion, for whom infiltration is a significant strategy. It would be bordering on insanity for the Federation not to have their own such organization. Section 31 adds an element of realism to the sci-fi world of Star Trek, and also opens up interesting "cloak and dagger" story possibilities, and the associated moral conundrums.
I have always said that DS9 was the most realistic trek. I think that stands true.. I think it's as close to Gene's ideals and be 'real'.
See, I don't understand: With the modern technological updates to special effects and the rich history of Star Trek, why not make a new one? NOT A PREQUEL!! A NEW SERIES!
Maybe some day we will?
Your wish has been granted.
Thumbs up for pragmatism.
The Federation often seems really naive at times.
No, they just prioritize Grand Strategy above all else
@@InfamousArmstrong
Na rather Section-31 does.
Perhaps in a way Section-31 allowed the foundation of the Federation as it was a better idea than a Terran Empire.
Your observation on Section 31 is spot on. I also agree with your assessment. All governments, as a rule, always has a shadow intelligence group that will do what others can't. Not even Starfleet Intelligence can do the things Section 31 given the former still has to deal with red tape and it'll be on record.
Whether Starfleet and the Federation likes it or not, Section 31 is that silent guardian it'll need when it's on the brink of defeat. After all, even in paradise, there's someone out there to protect it while everyone sleeps at night hoping for a better day.
Yea, I pragmatically can't see them not existing. I think their success in the Dominion War all but proves it.
Lore Reloaded The Dominion War is where they proved how useful they are. The fact they even outmaneuver the Tal Shi'ar was a testament to their skill and dedication to spycraft.
This makes you wonder how they fare against the Klingons, the Orion Syndicate, or even the Knzethi ( I believe I misspelled this one. I know they're cat-like.).
Section 31 is the kind of balance that an empty-headed Starfleet needs. Don't want to be a military power house? Fine. Great, even. Unreasonably believe that if you have no weapons no body's going to bother with you? Darwin Awards for everyone!
Someone might of already said this but if not, people also overlook that in Section 31's attempt at Genocide they (though not in the way they imagined) opened a path for the war to end. If you recall after Kira, Garak and Odo captured the female changeling/founder in the series finale she vowed the Dominion would fight to the bitter end making the Federation/Klingon/Romulan/Cardassian victory over them Pyrrhic at best. Odo's offer to cure her and rejoin the rest of his species to spread the cure in exchange for the wars end, was the incentive that changed her mind and lead to peace. Section 31 can probably be considered more of a necessary evil for the federation, an agency that recognizes that the galaxy does not play by the same rules as the federation and that sometimes the ends justify the means. I can think of a bunch of real world examples to explain this but to avoid a long point-counterpoint argument that will surely offend someone I won't go into them.
Sometimes you need that cerberus to guard the gates
Section 31is one of my favorite subsets of the Federation. I have always thought the Federation was naive not developing a more powerful military for defense. Granted in their sector of space they wee the top dog virtually unchallenged till the Borg and Dominion threats. I thought Section 31 was some much needed pragmatism in intergalactic relations . There were threats out there but the Federations technological advantage allowed them to field a navy not optimized for combat but still powerful enough to deal they local problems.
Love to hear ya talk about the Gorn.
Section 31 is interesting...we know Sloan mentioned his admiration for people like Bashir, even is somewhat self pitied "I've given up everything to make sure people like you get to thrive". Of course, ruining people's lives to get their double agents in power. Would the Federation be any worse off without them? It would almost be worth it to have an S31 exclusive canonical look at their activities, to know what we don't know about their history and involvement in galactic events. At least they were seemingly smarter than the Tal Shiar when it came to the Dominion.
Be interesting if we see their genesis (Or atleast a continuation of their story) - in Star Trek Discovery.
Lore Reloaded it seems like that's one of the directions std is planning to go.
Planet Risa - The Fuckplanet!
I love Section 31. And I love that it's comprised of people who willingly sacrifice themselves to preserve the utopia of the Federation.
I can see why people would definetly look at it that way.
Just chiming in to say how much I like your channel. I'm a really big Trek fan, but this is the only Trek related channel I sub to. Your in depth and seemingly endless critiques are a nice break from the day. Also, this is the sanest comment section of any channel out there. You should be consulting on future mass market Trek endeavors.
As far as Section 31 is concerned, one of my main thoughts is whether or not I would like to see that explored more deeply in canon, or keep it vague - make my imagination play on it. With the passing of Anton Yelchin, I would rather they make no more Kelvin time line movies. Granted, they were perfectly cast and well done (stories aside), but I just don't see replacing him and moving forward with another movie. I often think I would like to see a TOS canon movie set in the far future. In TNG, Picard was shown the Enterprise in the year 2,900. Perhaps a movie in 3,300. Then maybe or maybe not use the story to get deeper into the role Section 31 has played for the Federation.
I'm really glad you enjoy my work ;) Always feel free to comment or post..whether you agree or disagree. I does this channel as a discussion for Lore (Though I know I am most known for my trek stuff)
As an idealist, I think I'll respectfully disagree with the dodgy pragmatism of Section 31 and arguments that support it. That being said, it's a very good video and made me think about my position (which honestly, the introduction of Section 31 was probably meant to- not to say whether it was good or not objectively from the show's perspective, but to make the audience think and debate, which is always great for fiction to do) so.... well done! The more I see, whether or not I agree with your conclusions, the more I find this channel my favorite for Trek content because of how well laid out and, frankly, entertaining your arguments are.
Unlike the purists (no offense) I view Section 31 as a necessary evil. History has shown that we need people to do the dirty jobs no one wants to talk about. This is just me but I see 31 more as a special ops unit than an agency. Similar to Delta Force or the SAS. Called upon to provide a third option to any given situation. But again that is just me.
I think more people are coming around to Startrek being a Darker theme now. Not many a-purist around anymore.
Oh, they're still around. I think most of them are busy making comments on ST:D videos right now.
Very true in both counts. Now this is just a theory of mine, (warning spoilers*) I don't think section 31 is entirely without a chain of command. Judging strictly by their tactics and Sloan. Obviously they are masters of deception and misdirection. The incident with senator Cretak and Koval. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the founder virus was an attempt to get Odo to rejoin his people. Think about it, the Federation would have an ally in the upper echelons of the Dominion. Also they would have to more intelligence on the founders. Also when Bashir was looking the cure in Sloan's mind, the part or Sloan was going to reveal all his secrets. I believe that Sloan wad lying to not only make 31 more provocative to keep Bashir on track, he was was gambling on O'Brien to keep the focus on the cure. Again that is just a fan theory. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.
I want to see a section 31 series also but set in the 25th century and shown how they have grown in Influence and technology.
To me section 31 was a necessary evil. Because the federation was always running into enemies who were bent on destroying it.Section 31 seem to operate in the realm between what's right and what's necessary.Not all enemies can be reason with and sometimes ruthlessness is necessary. Starfleet was to principled to do certain things and rightfully so.Section 31 was the ones who could cross the lines when needed to protect the society.
Picard being leader of S31 would be an amazing show. The first season could be how he is recruited- choosing the position of S31 leader as the lesser of two evils in a situation that offers only two options. Trying to run S31 while also staying true to his personal morality would make for plenty of conflict and good drama.
No. Picard is a man of conscience. He would be disgusted by Section 31.
Great video!
I aim to please
Paramount's licensed game Star Trek online expands the activities of Section 31. So there is a little more cannon there.
The game is no longer considered solid Canon. Which is why I left a bit of that out. Also, I haven't been through all of those stories so I couldn't talk definitively on them.
Goddamed patriots, every last one of them. Sloan's only regret was that he had but only one life to give for the federation. In a universe with any justice, Starfleet headquarters would have been named in his honor once it was rebuilt. The Federation who condemns the actions of Section 31 is alive and free to do so only because of the actions of the very same people upon whom they pass judgement. For all the condemnation and ingratitude they get for their selfless sacrifices, I don't think they give a damn, because they love the Federation that much.
I wonder if Sloan had a similar opinion of the world as the Agent did in Serenity.. 'I don't intend to live in this world.. men like me can't live in it'
# Lore Reloaded- A few weeks ago I joined and click the subscribe in the Bell notification because I'm a Star Trek fan myself especially of DS9. I was wondering can you do a video on the founders especially the evil female Changeling? Whose in charge of the Dominion War and why?
If anything a strong hand, a flexible diplomacy and a powerful resolve with fleets to match it goes further than "Utopia world view", remember we must not mix up "Aggression with Hostile", you can have empires that are diplomatically aggressive but not war mongers just powers refusing to be bullied by others.
In Star Trek Online(25th century) section 31 exists. Franklin Drake was an operative for them the only named operative. He helps the Captains in a Mission to stop the devidians from destorying the Federation in the 23rd century. Also gives you a way to travel back in time. At K-7 Section 31 is actively helping Starfleet against threats and providing protection from any and all threats to Federation security.
Damn son, your channel is blowing up
From your mouth to God's ears.. my friend ;) Hopefully will continue.. I really enjoy doing this and it's easier to do and justify if its growing.
Don’t tell captain foley but ur vids are more interesting. Thanks Bro
Don't act all surprised that Starfleet let the reigns loosen on section 31 during the dominion war. Never before had the federation looked at total defeat so fast. And by a enemy that seemed to have the upper hand in almost every engagement. Remember in "In the Pale Moonlight" Star Fleet fully endorsed and sanctioned Sisko to do anything he could to pull the romunlins into the war. Including trading Biomedic gel which accoding to Sisko was highly controlled by Star Fleet and not for sale at any price, because it could be used in genetic expermintations or to make bio weapons. And while Sisko erased all records of how he accomplished it, I am sure starfleet got a detailed report and was more than willing to accept the cost. In fact I was actually surprised a rep from section 31 was not assigned to help Sisko.
I love that Section 31 is in official Star Trek cannon. Given the universe that the Federation exists in with many hostile enemies I always thought the Federation was too optimistic and hopeful. The revelation of section 31 was always in the shadows watching their backs makes sense. Odo said it best that most great powers have a group like that and that the federation is no different makes sense. Also that when star fleet was created after world war 3 all the major earth powers has their own intelligence organizations and with a united earth government and humans beginning to move out to the stars the attention of those intelligence apparatus just did not go away but 31 was there from the beginning to protect humanity from what ever was out there.
Great video I wish they would expand the role of section 31 in the movies/tv
We might is the Discovery is determined to be a section 31 ship..
I can understand why Starfleet in the Kelvin Timeline defrosted Khan. They simply had no concept of how to fight a war when faced with an enemy that could not be reasoned with.
Especially a super genious
A Star Trek series on section 31 would’ve been great
Yea, didnt section 31 exist during the show enterprise?
It did... Which is my justification for the pre-federation existence
Nathan Holstrom That would make sense, considering the head of Starfleet Intelligence was very aware of the Pegasus Project, and wanted to keep it under wraps. It would stand to reason that a short list of Starfleet Intelligence personnel would have knowledge of Section 31, and, of course, 31 would have no compunctions against violating the Treaty of Algeron.
Wasn't Riker apart of s31, or am I wrong?
Malcolm Reed was a member if I remember rightly.
Like Aidan said, Malcolm Reed was a former Section 31 agent, who had an on/off again relationship with them.
But with Riker, he was on the Pegasus as an ensign. Because of his involvement in the coverup, he said to Picard he needed to be put under arrest, which Picard did. I don't believe he was ever involved (knowingly) with S31. He was just out of the academy.
What happens to Star Fleet when Voyager come home with a boat load of new weapons and all the major powers basket cases?
They become the ultimate in destructive abilities against their enemies?
Have you made a video on the Temporal Cold War?
Hey can you do one of The Terminator VS The Borg?!
I agree with your personal opinion on what would become of section 31
It seems the most logical and my research on the books with Bashir seem... Far fetched...on how he defeats section 31.
I vaguely recall something about a Bolian operative in their ranks but I can't remember for the life of me where from, Enterprise maybe? Then again it could have just as easily been a foundry mission in STO.
Is there any chance we could see a video on Starfleet rules and regulations and how there is only one violation that would actually give a captain a death sentence
Lore Reloaded-Section 31 book series would be a good one to look at maybe? Goes from TOS through Voyger.
sure, going to get into beta canon soon.. Is it just 'section 31' or a different name?
Like Odo I was not surprised to learn the existence of Section 31. The Federation lives in a galaxy full of governments that didn't share their sense of right and wrong. Let their enemies underestimate them while having people in the shadows ready to eliminate any threat to their way of life.
Is technology assimilated by the Borg immediately available to all Borg or does that Cube need to reunite with a Borg hub?
Every major empire has an intelligence services or special forces the federation is no different
Section 31 was the perfect example of a black opps organization cause they operated within the Federation but not officially as a part of the Federation. Of note that is that ironically Sloan's prediction that the Federation and Romulans would have some kind of conflict came true with Shinzon's coup. Maybe do a video on that.
They were a necessary evil, much like the CIA/NSA/MI-5 or 6/etc. Also, Wolf 359 was not the final stand-point/fleet for Earth. It was literally the ships laying around or able to get close to Wolf-359 while a fleet of the strongest ships were getting called in to Earth from across Federation Space. It was meant to be a stall tactic/test of Tactics.
Also, both views of a post-DS9 Section 31 are valid. Section 31, acording to Star Trek: Enterprise, was divided up into smaller cells who knew a handful of others in other cells. Also, one mistake to mention... Section 31 wasn't formed with the Coalition. It was formed with the United Earth Federation, and is in Earth's Charter, not the Coalition's. Section 31 was 99.9% human, because Section 31's concern was for Earth first, the rest of the Federation (as Earth's allies) second, other allies 3rd, and the rest of the galaxy not at all.
If I understand my fictional shadow organizations formula, Section 31 would know it was risking getting caught/exposed in the post-Dominion War era, and would trim the fat. Use the expendible members along with a few of it's soon to be RED (Retired, Extremely Dangerous) agents as sacrificial lambs to get caught/face trial for the greater Section 31 entity to slink back into the shadows and thrive as the number one shadow agency in two quadrants..
I do have a question: Did the Klingons ever have an intelligence or shadow broker agency of their own?
I can imagine that Section 31 would send weakest ships to Wolf 359 to make federation take Borg threat more seriously. Because it's very easy to loose if you underestimate your enemies. So if Federation feared Borg, it would motivate them to make more powerful ships such as USS Defiant and invest more in it's defense, because they knew that if Federation was too pacifistic, it would be their downfall. Although this is all just a speculation.
Good point
I still don't buy it - it would be like sending the coast gaurd to take on the Russian Fleet while they were on their way to attack New York.. to prove the Russian Fleet is a threat.
+Lore Reloaded what's your favorite star trek show?
I would guess that Starfleet / Sect 31 were holding powerful reserve fleets / armadas ready to warp in as needed. Strategically you would not want to mass all your best ships in one area, in the event the Borg was doing a probe / force recon move to bait all of Starfleet's ships into one point and then jump in 15 more cubes. This is just a guess BTW.
I always wondered if Sec31 had their own ships that would be outfitted with tech that would normally be illegal. I'm thinking of a jet black deviant or something.
If Discovery goes the way I think it is, we will have a lot more info on section 31.
Yep, that's my feeling as well.
Indeed..we talked about that on Sunday
TurboCMinusMinus The more I see the more I have to just look at it as a total reboot, and even then it's just meh. I am starting to like Lorka though after the lethe episode. As long as they don't kill him off I think it could be an interesting show. But yeah, with all the guesses and theories I had all based off Canon and trying to make this fit....that ain't happening lol
Sisco was fortunate to have Garak, though I wonder if Section 31 could have helped getting Sisco similar results in getting the Romulans to enter the war if left to their own methods.
Love it.
Glad I could impress ;)
Do you think Daniel's from Enterprise was working for section 31?
On the theory that Section 31 sent obsolete or older ships against the Borg at Wolf 359 I can see why the would do this. After the battle of wolf 359 and with the threat of the Borg, Starfleet started programs that would militarize Starfleet with the development of ships with a war first mentality. From those programs we get the Defiant class, the Prometheus class, the Sovereign class, the Akira class and the likes. Ships that were designed to carry significantly more firepower then any ship that had proceeded it. Also other ships had weapon system upgrades that made them far more dangerous then they were previously. Case in point the Nebula Class with it's weapons pod which gave it more phasers and torpedo launchers.
Section 31 knew that Starfleet needed to adapt to a galaxy that was slowly becoming unstable and that for Starfleet and utopia to survive, they would need to grow some teeth in order come out on top. At the end of the Dominion war Section 31 was the top shadow organization in both the alpha and beta quadrants.
Also the fact that unlike the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order, Section 31 was a true covert organization. I loved that because it showed that there were still elements of Humanity that was still distrustful of outside forces and were willing to become the sin eaters in order for the masses to live in paradise.
I'd say by the end of the dominon war section 31 would be too big and powerful for one man to have any hope of taking down along with the fact that too many people in the upper echelons support it
agreed
Utopia has its price. Section 31 is the neccessary evil to keep the enemies outside the gates.
In Star Trek DS9 there was much indignation expressed about Section 31 and their methods. However when the Federation/Klingon alliance was losing the war, Sisko was willing to forge information that the Dominion were planning to attack the Romulans, which involved the release of the forger, and payment of a biogenic gel for a Cardassian data rod. He even accepted after a temper tantrum, the death of the Romulan Senator and his staff (plus the forger) to avoid the deception being made public, and reinforce the veracity of the false news - any imperfections in the recording being put down to the explosion.So, just as in WWII it was necessary to use a dead man to plant misleading information on the Germans, Sisko accepted that in this case getting the Romulans into the war to avoid defeat, the ends justified the means: all very Section 31-ish.I would like to see a novel based on a determination by the Federation to erase Section 31 by using time travel to make sure that article 14 section 31 was never written, only for the agents selected to change history discovering that the only reason the peace loving altruistic Federation was able to survive in a Galaxy with so many threats (Klingons/Tholians/Breen/ etc) was the actions Section 31 was willing to take at various crisis points.
I wouldn't count the Obsidian Order out cause I'm sure there are some surviving members cause Garek was still alive after the Dominion war and he was the protege of Enabrin Tain.
After The Dominion War, Section 31 would have employed The Tal Shi'ar to teach them "enhanced interrogation tactics" because they were the equivalent of The KGB, and Homeland Security learned the enhanced interrogation tactics like waterboarding from former KGB officers supposedly.
Who are the star fleet elite?
Cisco was cool, Picard and Janeway had great crew. Who would make up your commando team to pilot a defiant class vessel on a mission?
I seem to think that the most fascinating thing about section 31. Is that they are almost a myth inside the Federation. While outside of the Federation they may not be known of at all as even existing. That is the beauty of section 31 they are quite literally start Trek's shadow organization. Sometimes it appears that they screw up or miss things. Yes they probably knew about the existence of the Borg. However they would not have known when the Borg would show up and in what force. So they would have to wait until an encounter with a full Borg force or in this case Cube to evaluate the new enemy.
It seems the new ST:Discovery is going to be about Section 31. Apparently that how its supposed fit into the timeline. Because section 31 is secret, all their tech and stuff can be weird and different. They can also be more advanced, as this was suggested in DS9 when they were dealing with Sloan.
Hey - yea we just got done talking about that live no 5 minutes ago.. It's going to be interesting ;)
What did you say at 2:19? For earth .... wars? I am trying to understand what you mean by "eat the meat of their enemies".
+john byteas The tzenkethi would eat humans if captured during the wars..
Thanks. I didn't know the tzenkethi did that.
Or the STDiscovery Klingons!!
During the first season of TNG, there was the Conspiracy story arc and the infiltration of Starfleet by the Bluegills, how might that have affected Section 31 personnel?
I think it would have definitely made them more.. Extreme.. If starfleet could be so easily corrupted.. Then they would need to be taken care of.
Does that then answer your video, that Section 31 didn't intervene with the Borg at Wolf 359 because their organization was in such a mess that they couldn't?
It's definetly a possibility.
Waiting and Watching.....
What a way to end that video.
I try ;)
The book: Star Trek DS9: Disavowed, has a Vulcan Section 31 member.
The way I understand it, Section 31 never stopped being a branch of the United Earth - which is still a member planet of the Federation.
Bashir is right but so is S31. Its probably best that the organization is purged from time to time to keep its corruption in check. They deserve to be given medals then thrown in prison. They can be most successful in their mission without betraying it that way.
I 've always loved the idea of Section 31, they just are so bad ass, never liked the idea that humans would be as perfect as Gene wanted us to be just a few centuries into the future. Plus they have an awesome fashion sense!
they add an interesting element to it.
When there are people who have consciences and will refuse to do something because they can't live with it, that will give insidious people who mean you harm a sheild to hide behind, as they operate on their nefarious plans. It necessitates that you have people who are willing and able to commit every unspeakably evil act necissary to break that sheild and see to it that those who can't bring themselves to acts of that nature can sleep safe at night.
Put simply principles are good, but sometimes you need to shoot up the ambulance to ensure that the enemy can't use it to run away
I've always pondered if the organization Cerberus in Mass Effect 2 was inspired by Section 31.
Sloan is so similar to the illusive man, the comparison both physically and personality wise are creepy.
Never thought of that, maybe..
Cant wait for Discovery season 2.
It will be interesting
Tbh they arent that bad if u think about it. They just help out with their batshit crazy, North Korea, methods when they are NEEDED like during the dominion war ( that they were losing )
The Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order would have crippled the Federation faster than you can read this post. Section 31 did the dirty work the Federation couldn’t be seen doing (and being deniable as they’re autonomous) and allowing its citizens to live in the la la land utopia it’s portrayed as being. The old school fans would think that S31 pisses on Roddenberry’s vision but it all makes sense. Someone’s got to keep the bad guys away to maintain the peace, they’re no different to the darkest reaches of MI5 or the CIA.
Section 31 knew nothing of the Borg until the Enterprise discovered the Borg via Q. And even if they went or tried to fight Borg they knew it would be impossible and the Romulans would fight side by side with them
I hear a lot didn't like section 31 because if its realism. I get the feeling that Section 31 is Earth first. You never hear from the people of earth and that makes them seem like emotionless drones. Loved the idea of section 31.
You forgot one thing, Garak returned to Cardassia Prime after the Dominion War...
"We cloak ourselves in cold indifference to the unnecessary suffering of others-even when we cause it " James Carrol This isn't from Star Trek cannon just where I believe an error was made in the Section 31 / Wolf 359 conclusion. Its my theory that section 31 had ace in the hole, and the lose of soo many ships and the lose of life would be nothing in this gambit by Section 31.
IDK - It could be argued that no one loves paradise more than the ones willing to leave it in order to make sure it remains for everyone else. Maybe Section 31 isn't at all about subversion of Federation ideals, but rather being willing to take the dirty jobs on one's own conscious instead of making the whole culpable. Just a thought.
Section 31 is Starfleet, don't know how people don't get this. In order for their operation to work they would need to be able to infiltrate and control Starfleet command and have almost complete control over all decision making.
I think that all of it's operatives would be firm believers in Federation principles and ideals, I mean what they do takes serious dedication so they would need a powerful ideological motivation to sustain that constant level of commitment. The difference with section 31 is that it realises you can't be a soft touch and need to be able to defend yourself with lethal force as a last resort. Look at the west now, we've been letting useless Muslims in for years and been extremely tolerant and what has it gotten us?
Section 31 ARE STARFLEET they run the whole show, and their existence is both necessary and justified!
I think Quantum Torpedoes in ablative armor come from section 31 I think that the phrase cloak come from section 31 and I think they have 4 more powerful ships and weapons and it stained early field in the Federation I think the defiant came from section 31 section 31 might have in the fleet I would Vance defiance all of Face quotes they might even be able to put Face clothes from torpedoes so they could go right through the Shields and Hall and in detonate inside the ship
"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall."
So was Colonel Jesup a precursor to Section 31?
It will be quite interesting to see if Discovery has S31 onboard or is part of ...NCC 1031
yea we talk about this in our post show of episode 3 on sunday.
1031 is a refference to space shuttle sv-103, Discovery.
I wouldn't be surprised that Section 31 was involved with Marquee Border Wars.
Do the Ferengi
Section 31 are just expendable operatives. There is a much more powerful entity giving the orders behind it. Read Star Trek novel Section 31: Control for details. It blew my mind. It puts many things about the history of the Federation into a new shining perspective.
I for one would like to thank Section 31 for their constant sacrifice. No families, no friends, die with nobody knowing their name, but also knowing they've preserved paradise with their moral sacrifice as paradise remains surrounded in the Wilderness.
I don't think Section 31 had much of a influence on the events of Wolf 359, that was a strictly military engagement and they were, at the time, strictly an intelligence agency. Maybe, at most, they had some agents planted on the Federation ships involved so they could get a first-hand assessment of the enemy, but other than that they lacked the resources or the reach to really dictate the Federation policy.
Additionally, the Borg cube was just one ship that had before then only been encountered once, so for an agency like Section 31 that was all about collecting and using an abundance of data this would not set off any alarms, only after an entire fleet was annihilated would they have the data they needed and could say "Yes, this is something we need to pay attention to". So when the second cube turned up I am pretty sure that Section 31 pressured the Admirals to have Picard sent as far away as possible regarding him as a liability.
4:05 You'd never find ANYTHING from Rodenberry about section 31. They would be the exact opposite of his view of the federation