Should Vegans Just SHUT UP? | Joey Carbstrong
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
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Joey Carbstrong is an Australian animal rights activist and vegan. Formerly a criminal, Joey turned his life around and now campaigns for animals, his views having been widely syndicated across various platforms including national television, radio, and his own highly popular TH-cam channel.
Joey speaks to Alex about how to advocate for veganism, and whether the forthright methods employed by many activists does more harm than good. Should vegans calm down?
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Hey Alex, I would add something to your question: "Should you congratulate someone for being vegan?"
Your example was that you also don't congratulate people who stop beating their wive. But I think this is not the right comparison. I think you should alter it to: "Do you congratulate someone to stop beating their wive, even tough beating their wive is the social norm?"
To this question I would answer "yes", because this person is changing its mind even tough he/she is getting a lot of social backlash.
(Sry for my inperfect english. I'm not trained in this kind of english conversations.)
I tend to agree with you, great point
I'm trying very hard to get through this.
DerKommentiererHD
That's exactly what I thought, too. I know many people who might be sensitive enough to care about animal rights and finally go vegan but live in a social environment where any tiny step in the right direction is immediately ridiculed by their family members and peers - out of ignorance and habituation I guess. Every gesture of appreciation could help them finding confidence with their empathy for non-human animals.
Edit: I get the point that we should go vegan for the animals and not for humans, but since the animals have no chance to show their appreciation I guess it's our job to do it for them.
I think there's no conflict if we articulate this point when we congratulate people for going vegan.
your conversational English is better than you think :)
Sopho Nax
Well put. I totally agree.
A Meat Eater's Case For Veganism: "Now don't worry, my channel isn't turning into a veganism advocacy channel or anything".
This video: "I know that people have heard me speak a lot about veganism recently and they better get used to it".
I welcome this change.
Yeah, unfortunately I may have to unsubscribe. I signed up for atheism vids not vegan advocacy. But I’m glad more people seem to like it than not and I’m glad he found his calling.
@@kk8490 Well, must vegans are atheists, why would that be?
@DC 10o01 If he actually said that the channel is not turning into a veganism advocacy channel, and someone signed up for the channel, I am pretty sure the 'channel is about being logical and rational' card really DOESN'T work. It doesn't matter how much it fits as a subject, if Alex says the channel won't shift into being on a subject, then that he does so is a fault on Alex's part, not the subscriber.
People change their minds and it think it's fair that Alex said the channel wasn't turning into a vegan advocacy channel in that video especially since it was before he went vegan. You have the right to unsubscribe if you like, or just ignore the vegan videos he releases and watch the atheist content instead. I think Alex is still releasing content on a few different topics there's just been an increase in vegan videos since it's now an important issue he advocates for
@@anitasmirnov4539 I do think that a lot of this is fair, and to be honest, I would rather not really call fault on either side of subscriber/channel. To what you said, I can't think of any way I actually disagree. However, if someone is going to say 'you signed up for the wrong thing' about a channel changing the direction it's going with its content, and someone 'signing up' disagrees with that change, I'm going to have to give a disagreement until something big impacts the context, such as if it turned out that subscriber advocated for the change of direction. -And disgree I did, it's the subject of my grievance.
I will concede I should have voiced that nuance in my prior post.
In art class last year my teacher brought in a bunch of fish and even sliced one open, just so we could paint them. The vegan guy in my class refused to paint it and walked out. I still think of this. As a vegetarian I should have stood to my beliefs but I didnt... I definitely think I'm going to go full vegan now
Update: I went full vegan and im loving it! It was a struggle not eating eggs but everything else was super easy. Anyone who think they can't, just give it a go. It's easier than you think!
How do you paint on fish?
@@LannasMissingLinkwonderful that you went vegan! As egg substitute, try tofu scramble. Many recipes on youtube and super delicious. You can also eat it like Asian omelet-rice if you eat with rice and ketchup. For baking use ground flaxseed [1 tablespoon per 3 tbs of water) in lieu of egg
@@443tify paint the insides....they used the fish as "still life"
@@LannasMissingLink I still miss eggs. I used to love a boiled egg with soldiers as a child and I still miss them, and I’m 61. It doesn’t matter though does it. Anything worth doing takes a bit of effort.
Decades of being a non-vegan, ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN WAS ONE PERSON to have approached me briefly to discuss the subject of animal exploitation, and I would have gone vegan on the spot. But no one ever did. I went vegan only because I casually searched TH-cam in Feb 2017, and listened to a recorded animal rights speech (Gary Y). Many people are sitting on the fence and will go vegan if they hear the message. Thank you for being that person for someone else who is under the same carnism spell that I was under.
Very well written, and I agree!
Same here. I was vegetarian for four years (for environmental reasons). I was NEVER exposed to arguments for veganism during that time. There was and still is a very strong cultural stigma towards veganism (it is so strong that I still find the word vegan dirty-sounding despite being a vegan myself). I may have just brushed aside anything vegan related (videos, articles etc), but I watched a few of the street interviews like the ones on Joey's channel, and the arguments for veganism were sound and logical, so that convinced me immediately to make the change.
@Arschloch vom Dienst wo ist jetzt dein Argument gegen Veganismus?
You're welcome to create the menu that works for you, but many of us live our lives based on logic instead of misguided emotions. Veganism is a mechanism of self-loathing and eating meat isn't a moral issue. The fact vegans base their entire argument on an erroneous morality claim should inform you of something.
Arschloch vom Dienst factory farms and slaughterhouses are the definition of unjustifiable exploitation... Makes me laugh non-vegans think saying ‘our ancestors tho’ is a valid argument in 2020
"no justice movement in the history of mankind has ever been successful if it tailored its language to the oppressors"
i need to remember that!
It's a wonderful qoute
can someone tell me what this has to with veganism? Im not mocking you im just curious. watched this video and got very little profit from it. meat eater here btw
@@thucydides7849 The oppressors here are the people paying for animals to be abused, eg people who buy meat, eggs cheese and so on. What he's saying is we need to talk from the victims' point of view - the victims are the animals here, just to make that clear - not the consumers' pont of view. No justice movement historically has been successful doing that.
@@thucydides7849 it means dont use euphamisms like meat eaters do to trick themselves into thinking that "beef" is just another inanimate food object and not someone like yourself that didnt want to die. It means dont use the oppressors language that they use to disguise the violent attrocities they are complicit with, because they are obviously already comfortable with that, you need to use language that tells it like it is.
They arnt "harvesting food like beef and pork", they are violently and mercilessly holocausting concious beings that fight for their life in their dying breathe like you would. They arnt "milking and taking care of cows", they are enslaving and commiting beastiality by raping them and brutally murdering their children so you can steal the milk that was meant for the child. Make sense?
@lolcano234, you don't have to "personify animal psychology", you just have to recognize that animals are beings with a subjective experience, and this is a view entirely justifiable scientifically.
I never would have guessed a year ago that you and Joey Carbstrong would talk to each other. A welcome surprise.
A suprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
Very welcome
To be honest I feel like being vegan is the least I can do. It's not even activism, it's just personal change for the better (Regarding living my morals and keeping my health. Just speaking for myself here of course). I applaud activists like the two of you, thank you so much for what you do.
Exactly. Being vegan is a non-action. It's simply choosing 'not' to do something, it's neutral. Whereas being a vegan activist is an action.
Booker DeWitt yeah I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently. Ed has analogised this before, by imagining walking past a man beating his dog and asking you to join in. The meat eater joins in, the vegan chooses not to participate but the activist actually tries to stop it from happening. I’m at a bit of a loss because I feel like I need to be doing more, but I don’t know how or where to start
@@_Booker_DeWitt Not true. Going out of your way to change your whole diet is an action especially if youre also being an activist
Twenty Faces why do you think that?
That's your opinion. Killing animals to eat them is the least i can do
I got teary-eyed from reading all these comments how people have gone vegan because of this channel or Earthling Ed or Joey Carbstrong. Thank you all.
I know it's sad isn't it. Alex is sending people to the hospital or the grave without even realising it. I used to be vegan and I almost died.
Jacob Johnson well that’s crazy because i know lots of vegans (myself included) who are alive and well
Mohammed Ali the g The fact that you think people who are simply putting information (facts) out there are “forcing” something onto you just goes to show how powerful the message is on your guilty conscience.
Mohammed Ali the g Is that why vegans have the lowest rates of all cause mortality? Is that why you get the urge to chase down squirrels and rip their flesh off their bodies whenever you see one? It’s a fact that our digestive systems thrive better on plants and that we have no killing instincts. Who’s the one going against science? Not me.
Mohammed Ali the g There’s nothing to be guilty about needlessly murdering innocent animals when you can easily be vegan and thrive?
I've recently become vegan thanks to Earthling Ed, and the podcast you did with him brought me over to your channel and now I have a much deeper understanding of veganism from a philosophical standpoint and I think that has reinforced why I am vegan and why I will never go back to being nonvegan! So thank you for all the work you're doing! I've also learnt so much about religion and philosophy from your other videos that I had never come across before so thanks again!
can you please give me a good arguement to switch over? I love meat and was not even a lil bit swayed by this podcast
@@thucydides7849 watch his other video a meat eater's augment for veganism for a non-meta discussion
@@thucydides7849 How about this Cosmic Quote, "It doesn't get much more elementary than to oppose the torture of conscious creatures". Maybe try watching some slaughterhouse videos too. Read some facts about the meat industry. Are you open to changing your mind or do you really really want to stick with meat eating?
@lolcano234 I was guessing that you were being semantic about the use of the word torture, but then I googled the definition and found out that it just straight up applies to animal farming as-is, so I'm not sure what your point was. Do you believe that animals being beaten against floors, or hung upside down and having their throats slit, or having their tails cut off, or being left to rot in a dumpster aren't being inflicted with severe pain?
Ditto!!
You're still the epic vegan transformation I've seen on youtube. It shows that with analysis and critical thinking rational decisions can be made about one's daily lifestyle decisions.
Apparently, not anymore 😕
Alex is no longer vegan. Pretty funny right?
@@daggapigHow is it funny?
Covid19 and now thinking about zoonotic disease has been the whack I needed to move from vegetarian to vegan - thanks for this discussion
Congratulations on going vegan! I also think about how a breeding ground for disease come from the stressful, horrible conditions animals are put in.
@Alex Cross
Why are you so smug Alex about Paul's attempt at Veganism & possibly stumbling?
Do you like eating flesh that badly? Sicko :)
Do you hate other people attempting to be ethically consistent with their values?
Hell yah ! Good going
Alex Cross I’m going 5 years strong with my vegan hubby
@@JB.zero.zero.1 Insecurity. Take no notice
This really helped me understand Joey and why he is the type of activist he is. He's angry for the right reasons.
@Kelly Duitmann I had a look around online and can’t find anything about him trying to kill his ex girlfriend. It looks like he got 6 months for carrying a concealed shogun to a drug deal. And he was part of a gang. I think this was all back in 2011 and prior. It’s good to get a full picture but for me someone having a criminal past does not negate what they are doing with their lives now. It looks like he’s had a big turn around and is directing his anger and passion towards something positive and worth while.
I had the pleasure to meet Joey a while ago. I love seeing him in a podcast with Alex!
Years ago, after watching Breaking Bad, I wished for a series with the character Saul, and I was shockingly surprised with Better Call Saul.
Years ago, after discovering CosmicSkeptic and Joey Carbstrong, I wished to see them together, somehow, and today, I'm surprised with a podcast of them, together.
I don't know what I did to deserve all that...
I see the hand of god in your life.... Or, God works in mysterious ways? 🤦😂
can you please wish for Kamek in Smash Bros
@@fairwitness7473 Yeah! It seems that even though I don't believe in God, it does nice things for me. =)))))))))))))))
@@iis.1989 LoL!!!!!!! I'm right there with you!
@@darklightmotion5534 It doesn't work this way. I have to wish it form the bottom of my heart, I guess... =)) But, hey! I can try it, for you! It doesn't cost me anything to try, right? Who knows? Maybe it will work... If so, leave me a reply to announce me that it worked, please. :-D
Love Joey, he's my favorite vegan activist! Go Vegan everyone!
Carry on, my wayward son.
❤️❤️❤️
Hazel Hogan he is horrible
Hazel Hogan he isn’t interested in furthering the vegan movement, he is interested in his own ego and stirring shit within the vegan movement between actual vegans. He is the complete opposite of Joey
Kelly Duitmann 🤪🤪🤪
Your discussions on veganisms are always interesting. Refreshing to hear two vegans discuss the intricacies of veganism rather than the repetitive vegan vs meat eater "but uh, lions though".
BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT LIONS AND ANTELOPES
Lions and circle of life (hakuna matata) and also insects and my personal choice. Oh and, of course, ancestors though.
I find it interesting that you mentioned that, because in my humble opinion, lions and every other kind on animal that use other living creatures as a form of feeding themselves should be eradicated, since they in the overall of their existence contribute for a bad environment for raising a child, for the child internalizes that the world is a violent, cruel and non humane place, where they have to be exposed to pain and suffering, be it human's or animal's, which in the long run leads to a world full of aggressive people, with no compassion towards others.
@@jakecostanza802 that's an incredibly strange take my good man, but shine on :)
FUCK VEGANS!!!
Its like god damn quarantine Christmas when i see theres a new podcast with joey carbstrong and cosmicskeptic!
LOL........tru dat!
Same ♡♡♡
Lol @ quarantine Christmas. This could be a band name or a punk song name.
Yeahhhh
Lol, more like a waste of time from two insufferable Vegfan cultists. If that's your idea of entertainment, you're truly Vegan whack and really pathetic.
I actually became a vegan after one of Alex's videos when he was a meat eater. The pure arguments did it
Same
@@watchdominiondocumentary266 I like the name of yr channel
Efficient activism
@@Annibals lol thanks
It’s interesting what you think about his recent announcement?
Great video Alex! I agree 100%, those who say they don't go vegan because of vegans' approach, have already decided not to become vegan and it's often just another excuse! I personally try to judge an idea rationally by considering the idea itself, and not get distracted by who said it and how it was said. Also in my experience, sometimes when people ask and realize I'm vegan they get uncomfortable and occasionally get angry even though I'm calm!
Thank you for making this video!
Yep that's something I've also realized, it's quite dishonest and immature
It's because they know how disgusting it is for them to support factory farming.
Reminds me of penguinz0, what a child
@@Darius-kl3jk it's not dishonest or immature. Think about something like fat shaming. I've been slightly overweight most of my life and my mom beat me down for my overeating all the time. When I finally shook off the shame, listened to my body, and hit puberty, I started listening to my body and started eating appropriately and thinned out to a healthy weight. When I was listening to the fat shaming, all I did was get defensive and eat in secret and in shame instead. Think about it like racism. You dont fix those people by telling them they're bigots. You fix them by making sure they have a job, benefits, housing, emotional support, and exposure to diverse groups of people. If you shame a racist, they're just going to crawl further back into their bigotry hole.
If you want to change people, you have to give them education and compassion. When you flat out call someone a rapist or a murderer for animal farming, people are just going to shut down and regress. I've majorly reduced my animal product consumption, not because of aggressive vegan campaigns, but because I watch a lot of vegan TH-cam that shows me how plant-based can be easy, environmental, and more ethical. And I *want* to be a part of that, rather than be shamed out of something
Lol, "Dishonest, immature, just an excuse" you All truly live in a bubble then.
I am really glad I decided to watch to this video. As a vegan I feel I am not learning very much anymore from listening to vegan (activists) talk. I always doubted somehow of some justifications about argument strategies and certains views on activism of Joey Carbstrong. But added with your logical arguments, my doubts are relieved and his message is much clearer to me now. And I agree 100%. It is a very beautiful, strong and unambiguous message. Thank you both very much, I was missing this.
Check out Paul Bashir's workshop if you haven't already.
What are you doubting? Being vegan or activism styles?
Thank you so much Alex and Joey!!! I wish to grow stronger and influence as much people as I can. The truth must be told. Animals deserve their lives back.
“If we accept a mere tenth of what animal-rights activists are claiming, then modern industrial agriculture might well be the greatest crime in history.” - Yuval Noah Harari
It’s up there with the holocaust
@Wo Jak never claimed to value a pig over a human, but the numbers dont lie. the holocaust had around 6 million victims... the animal agricultural industry has around 50 billion per year ( land animals ) adding marine animals, there are trillions of victims and erm death is avoidable in this sense, we dont have to kill them so by definition it is avoidable and plants dont know there life is ending, they dont have a brain, central nervous system or anything, there are by all means machines, just not made out of metal
@Wo Jak your argument here is "haha you still cause harm, so why not cause the most amount of harm possible??" what your basically saying is vegans dont do as much as is practically possible, so vegans should grow there own food... wait, doesn't that mean we shouldn't move i mean what if we step in an ant.. the point im trying to get across is the reductio on your statement, what is the reductio? tearing down civilation itself
@Wo Jak the argument your putting forward is an appeal to futility fallacy, and on your question, I would say growing your own food veganicly ( search it up ) is good, but I would classify it as a moral virtue rather than a moral necessity as like I said the reductio on that is tearing down civilization itself
@Wo Jak yes, literally just admitted to using an appeal to futility argument, you still cause a significant amount of pain, so we may as well cause the most pain... if a vegan were to talk to me about this then it wouldn't be so, but your conclusion after giving me this arguement is too continue causing pain and suffering, there for making it an appeal to futility arguement
It's going to take a range of different people speaking and acting in different ways to stop the madness of animal agriculture.
Thank you both for speaking up. 💚
Totally agree. Joey said to be authentic, and that makes sense to me. Different people are comfortable with different things. Ed is a very gentle person; Joey likes directness more. Both are valid, and it makes sense that you should just do the one that is authentic to you - presumably people will pick up if you're not being authentic.
Haha. Probably should have finished before I commented, as this is basically Alex's point!
I love these longer videos. I could watch your videos all day long
Yes! A collaboration I was hoping for!
Not a vegan myself, but to answer the question in the title, no, vegans should not shut up. This is a topic that needs to be talked about more
People need to be talking about how unhealthy veganism is and not how ethical it is. Is it ethical to guilt people into a diet which ruins their health and then say they're immoral for not poisoning themselves.
@@JLydecka, everybody who talks about veganism being unhealthy gets wrecked, so only only masochistic weirdos persist in it.
@@FloydFreud Nah, I've had some good discussions with people.
Just because you say it's healthy, and a study says it's healthy (by correlation and self reported data) doesn't mean it's healthy for ME or every human on the planet.
@@JLydecka, what about when it's many, many studies, using different methodologies, from multiple disciplines, focusing on a multitude of discrete factors, and the full weight of that evidence converges on one single point, that a whole-foods plant-based diet excluding all animal products is optimal for human health without exception?
@@FloydFreud But it doesn't, show me a study comparing someone who eats free range, properly raised animal products as well as wholefood fruit and vegetables vs your average vegan. There aren't studies like that.
Meat eaters are all lumped into the same category and the VAST, 95%+ of population, consume unhealthy factory farmed meat which will make them sick, yes.
What Joey said about planting a seed in people who still push back is dead on.
I remember for me I had viewed a lot of vegan arguments/content and still pushed back against it for a very long time. Then my sister in law started talking about the Cecil The Lion scandal and how awful it was. I agreed that it was bad but I also kept arguing with her that eating meat was just as morally wrong despite me not being vegan at the time. At that point I knew I couldn't continue being a meat eater. I became vegan the following week and never looked back.
Why Try? You can be against trophy hunting and still eat meat without contradiction.
@@theImprobableSteve I have not heard a convincing argument that that is true.
There are situations where that is true, for example if your life depended on it due to lack of options or very extreme and rare health conditions. But the avrage person living in a first world country is doing it purely for taste pleasure, not for necessity.
I don't see a substantial moral difference between killing an animal for the pleasure you derive from hunting and the pleasure you derive from eating animals products.
Steven Butler no. That literally makes you a hypocrite
Planting seeds? Lool rubbish
@@sarabasney1698 great argument my dude.
Thank you Alex, and Joey !
YES!!! This is the collab I've been waiting for :) and on my birthday too. Thanks for the gift guys, haha.
Happy birthday! Live long and prosper :)
happy birthday bud 👍
Happy birthday dear PSYKEY, happy birthday to you!
Critic: "I'm fine with vegans as long as they keep to themselves.'
Also Critic: "I think X is wrong so I'm going to use my platform to try and change other people."
Pick one.
interesting point, but I would say I would tell a manic street preacher, a vegan, a flat earther and a scientologist ALL to fuck right off with thier nonsense.
y
Depends if you think storming restaurants and supermarkets and being aggressive, or calling people murderers and rapists for eating icecream, counts as mere criticism.
tonybuk70 would you have told atheist that 2000 years ago during the Roman Empire?
I’m not a vegan but I can see how they should not be put in the same bucket with Scientologist and flat earthers. The main objective truth for those who want to continue eating meat is due to our own selfish taste buds.
@@tonybuk70 the easiest way to disarm all of them...just state, "I don't care."
It takes lots of different activists to connect to different people. We already have an Earthling Ed we need a Joey too. Both have made an impact in their own way. Authentic people are far more believable than someone pretending to be someone else to appease with the masses. This is not a popularity contest, we need to reach as many as we can. Different angles and methods help us do this.
It's always refreshing to see you upload. You bring forth the most fascinating content.
and its always strange to see you in the weirdest parts of this site
I've seen you on wwe joe weller now cosmic skeptic
are you vegan?
I just want to let u know that u are my model on TH-cam. And is that mystogan from fairy tail has ur profile pic
@Luka Merkviladze Justin Y revealed how he would comment on so many different videos with relevant comments on another TH-cam channel. I'm assuming this guy works the same way, considering the amount of videos I've seen him on. I respect the hustle.
This discussion is so important to me. I've been thinking about which form of activism is most effective.
Ad Lockhorst Very true Money is Power
@Ad Lockhorst we can't really vote with our wallet if the government keeps bailing out the meat industry and keeps giving them subsides regardless of demand
@Ad Lockhorst sorry I'm thoroughly confused aha
It all depends on the person you're speaking to. I've blatantly in anger said to a person in chat "It's people exactly like YOU that stunt the growth of veganism, KNOWING it's WRONG but then too chickenshit to do anything about it!!!" Only for her to only realise her responsibility and then actually make an irl effort. That specific person needed that approach apparently. The most important is to speak/show truth, know your comebacks which is mostly practice, don't let people digress the conversation, do so peacefully, know your demographic, and, give them the tools to go vegan by supplying information on recipes and cruelty free alternatives :)
And of course people must realize they have a moral obligation, if they don't feel responsibility for their actions, then there's no point for them to change it. This always come across forceful, however it must be done because it only proves the point that they will feel their actions are not aligning with their own sense of morality.
ALEX IS A REFINED, EFFICIENT-MINDED, ABOVE AVERAGE HEIGHTED, MULTI-TALENTED MAN.
But he is vegan.
Luis Pellicer Collado BECAUSE HE’S EFFICIENT-MINDED.
@@yakib4663 That's a non sequitur.
Luis Pellicer Collado See, see I admit: your mind is fat. BUT MY MIND IS FATTER.
Above average heighted? "Heighted" makes no sense. You have taken a noun and put it into a past tense form which is meant for verbs. How are you using "height" as a verb?
Great conversation, nothing that I didn't already knew before, but I just love listening to you two, you're amazing activists, keep it up :)
Collab of the century omg
Ikr! Love it!
Superb video. Keep up the amazing work. Alex was 't vegan, then he thought about it without lying to himself, and he came the conclusion to go vegan. This is intellectual honesty.
It's not about not lying, it's about understanding reality. Alex lives behind a screen. Just because he's intellectual doesn't mean he's right.
If, I think it is but, IF veganism is unhealthy, then being one and trying to convert others to follow is immoral. He's completely overlooked this aspect and just sucking in the vegan health claims. They are lies or misinterpretted studies. Don't believe me? Question them. Go on. Doors will open. You'll have to do some homework, but you will know more about veganism than Alex.
@@JLydecka, animal products are implicated in humanity's deadliest and most debilitating diseases. *If* you've actually studied the facts, you know this is correct. To know this is correct and to persist in encouraging people to continue a lifestyle where eating animal products is a given is certainly immoral behavior. So how do you live with yourself?
@@FloydFreud Most animal eaters eat factory farmed animals which I agree ARENT healthy. So lumping all meat eaters together is bad science.
Also lumping vegetarians and vegans together is bad science.
You claim these are FACTS but if I tell you I've been vegan for 10 years is this a fact? No, I've just self-reported that I am, there's no way for you to check.
Same for these studies.
The people in them will claim they are vegan but they may very well not be.
@@JLydecka, ultimately, you still have to go with evidence you have, not that which you don't have. You act like there was one study, conducted like a political survey, where a bunch of people were called and asked, "Are you vegan? How do you feel?" And based on that we're saying veganism is good. You're either very ignorant of the bulk of research, or you're a lying troll.
@@JLydecka all major nutritional organizations agree on veganism being healthy
Thank you for this video. I became vegan some 8 years ago, after two years of being vegetarian. In 2011 I wrote my bachelor degree in Ecology about the Utilitarian ethic of the consumption of animal products. I became and "advocate" and try to go to many manifestations, and to do campaigns against animal cruelty, to help in non-profit organizations and to talk with my family and friends as much as i could about the subject. But after some months I got burned, I kind of separate my self from family and friends, because i didn't want to be part of dinners and to celebrate around dead animals. At the beginning when I start to talk about the subject, I thought, if I present all the arguments (ethic, environmental issues, and production facts), for sure people are going to understand, after all I did change after I saw how "food" was produced (Earthlinks), I never saw a video of animal being used before. After i did and cry, and cry, and cry and then I took desitions. I don't consider my self to be a bright person. I though my more intelligent friends will change more easily than me, it didn't work that way. Unfortunately, after some years i stop to be an activist, i keep to myself the issue of being vegan, and if someone really wanted to know i will explain the reasons. I talk just when the issue came a cros, but i didn't evolve as an activist.
I feel bad with myself for not being able to keep trying to fight for animal right. I feel very bad because I want to do something for animals, but I feel very weak when people react as if I were attacking them, and after telling all possible reasons it was stupid to believe that i could change people. That was never my intention, I wanted just people to see how easy all was, just stop eating animals, that is so easy, and with that, you are helping so much.
I believe that they are people, like Alex, that can talk about things in a more calm way, in my case my feelings get through faster than. it seems that we need to have always perfect argumentation ideas to support something. And of course its important to have good arguments, but in the case of animals it should not be necessary, it's just so easy to see that there is something wrong about this issue. But we need to be very intelligent if we don't want to be taken as stupid people, there is still much to be done, and i am glad to get again inspired. As you guys say, being Vegan is the least we can do for all the bad things that are already happening. We can not escape infringing pain in life, but we can try our best.
I really love this video guys, I want to keep doing things for animals. My degree in social work will be about ethic in social work and the case for non-human animals. Thank you (sorry for my English)
Thank you for sharing parts of your story here. It's a struggle for me too and something I too haven't really found a good solution for yet. How to stay sane, take care of oneself while also trying to still keep in touch with non-vegan friends and family. And how much to bring animal rights into the conversation. Stay strong, take care of yourself 😊
@@jdmmg4904 Yes, it is not an easy issue. We know how important this is. We know that we have a clear point of view, based in love and care for others and in ideals of a world we want to live in.
YoVeganO I get emotional talking about it too, I found an activism that suits me and it’s being a mentor for challenge22.com which was mentioned in this video, it’s online and everyone’s interested in veganism because they’ve signed up for support so it’s easy :)
i'm the type of person who needed someone like joe to make sure i understand. I really like his approach, it helps send people on the edge over to veganism. I thought i knew, but his delivery really hammers it into your head tbh
Personally I think his tactics are counter productive for the most part. Many of his videos just amount to him putting people on the defensive; whereas someone less confrontational, like Earthling Ed, has more success getting people to actually engage with veganism. I know Joey's heart is in the right place, but I believe all he is doing is re-enforcing the "militant vegan" stereotype and turning people away from the discussion. The natural human response to confrontation is to become defensive after all.
@@andyk9735 "militant vegan" is an ad hominem attack to justify the indefensible. Anyone using that term has already made up their mind and have steeled their hearts. For those people simply asking questions like "life or taste habit?" IS militant enough.
@@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094 Well said. It's like saying "Militant slave abolitionist", or "militant anti- child abuse advocate".
It does not actually address the topic at hand at all.
th-cam.com/video/1KrJvpD0nNM/w-d-xo.html
@@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094 you'll notice that I already put quotations marks around the term myself. I'm quite aware that it's an ad hominem, but that doesn't change my point. I would also add that we don't know what's in anyone's head but our own. We don't know whose minds we're going to change, and whose we're not. I think that it's possible to change just about anyone's mind with the right attitude and approach.
Back to the original point though: regardless of whether it's right or wrong, the "militant vegan" stereotype exists, and playing into that stereotype will only serve to hurt our cause. Surely what matters are results? Getting people on board with veganism is what we want to achieve, so we shouldn't get hung up on the "oughts" and instead should focus on seeking out the methods that will yield the best outcome.
Great conversation, just visited some family yesterday and we ended up getting on the topic of Veganism organically from discussing coronavirus and politics (which I had not much to comment on), my uncle brought up how we need objective Christian morals or else anything can be justified like abortion. He mentioned animal rights somehow and how if there’s no objective morality that we have no moral responsibility and can act like wild animals. Animal rights eventually was brought up, then lead to Veganism. The funny thing is they didn’t even know I was a Vegan yet! Part way through when it started getting into a back and forth about animal rights, they look at me and asked “wait, are you a vegan?” I was like “surprise!”😂
We ended up talking for almost 4 hours about it, conversation style for the most part but at other times heated back and forth with my uncle (I was talking with 3 people at once) and I was heating up from the stress of making sure I got my point across and wasn’t being misunderstood. All are Christians so I had to work with their moral framework which I’m quite familiar with. I brought up Garden of Eden and how eating animals was not in Gods original design and wouldn’t be in heaven, Golden rule and argued on whether or not animals are “others”, no necessity for eating animals anymore, God/Jesus probably didn’t focus on the message of treating animals right if his focus was on humans at the time, etc. In the end no one completely changed their mind but they did say they understood where I was coming from and why I didn’t think it was consistent. I didn’t change their minds on using animals as a resource or killing them as a whole, but I did get an agreement on being against torturing animals or making them suffer. I probably should have pressed them on the fact that if they are against factory farming, they should stop funding it before they come and ask what’s wrong with backyard eggs or hunting deer.
Nice.
54:32 a point that Ed made was that,
If intellect justifies your behaviour towards someone then even inside our own species, people with mental disabilities or lesser IQs could be physically and sexually violated. And there should be nothing wrong with it. But on the contrary, we give them more care, we give these people means and opportunities to thrive in their level of intellect and capabilities, let alone violate them.
Hence, whether or not the violence towards someone is justified should be measured by the ability of the individual to suffer and your ability to stop contributing to it. If you do continue to abuse a sentient being, irrespective of the intelligence or level of consciousness, when you have absolutely no need and no right to do so, then you are causing violence.
JOEEEEEY!!!!! My two favorite TH-camrs! One that made me vegan (Alex) and one that kept me vegan during the first months (Joey).
Never going back! Much love to you guys!
Great episode. I've been Vegan for over five years now, and have been following both of you two for quite some time also, so its cool seeing you guys have this kind of converstation!
I think pushing the vegan message from the start is so important because, yes, someone might go vegetarian at first but they are also very likely to take the step to veganism at some point. Encouraging vegetarianism is really not the way to go. This is exactly how it was for me. I read "eating animals" by Jonathan Safran Foer, which only advocates for vegetarianism, over 4 years ago now and went vegetarian on the spot, thinking I was doing something really good and not realising the harm I was causing by still eating dairy and eggs. I only went vegan 3 months ago because that's when I came across these activists like Earthling Ed and Joey who presented me with the facts of those industries as well. If I had known about them, I'm sure I would've made the step to veganism a long time ago. That's why it's so important that we tell people to go vegan from the get go, even if they do only go vegetarian at first.
Interesting. I read Eating Animals not too long after becoming vegetarian, and it was one of the things that caused my eventual move to veganism. (6 months as a vegetarian thinking I was doing enough, ugghhh) Even though he's a vegetarian, that book is absolutely an argument for veganism when you're able to read through Jonathan's self-serving bullshit. Even my friend who read the book after me thought so.
Not lying... I thought of this collab the other day
You have manifested the future! :) ..... any chance of next weeks lottery numbers?
Chelsea Gardner i usually think of the lottery as a tax for stupid people, but maybe just this once
@@ryanbruno1212 Haha! Normally I'd agree but if you have the winning numbers and don't want the jackpot, I will graciously take it off your hands for you.
Just listened in full, wonderful discourse here especially after 50:00!!! Nice job guys
I love the way he's displaying his cosmic skeptic logo mug in front of the camera lol 😉👌
Wow, really strong message well done. I am blown away by your verbal elegance. You really have become such a prominent speaker that, when aligned, is able to articulate my views eloquently. When our views don't align I always find you o
put forward such compelling cases that often times, if not completely adjusted, you manage to shift my views. I really want to say thank you for what you do
guys a legend.
How so?
Who Joey? Yeah he’s pretty legendary
Legendary asshole Vegan nobody can stand. Even his own family. Legendary con-man, yes. Lol.
I listened to your conversation, and it was like watching potters at the wheel creating vessels, then firing them. Finally, you filled them with truth so that could have a drink. I loved it. Thanks.
Neuroscientist Sam Harris released the book the moral landscape in which he claimed that he could explain morality and objective moral truths using science ... discussions are always good ... I should state that I'm not the most confident apologist off his argument right and I may not have answers, so it's more of a conversation or I'm convinced of my not being convinced if you see I'm saying.
Alex 👍🏽 Jeoy👍🏽 keep up the good and necessary work guys. glad you’re here to champion the fight against two things they really need to be eradicated from the human psyche.
Good talk, Alex
you raised a lot of interest questions and the topics were interesting to listen to
This was one of the best discussions I've heard on the topic in the past three years. Alex, thank you for your clarity, your hermetic reasoning and your intellectual honesty. And Joey, thank you so much for your frank guidance, your broad experience, your unflagging endurance. You both are shining examples for me and countless others.
Two of my favorite YT'ers unite. Very awesome.
The conversation I've been waiting for for quite some time. thank you!
Thank you, Alex and Joey.
What an amazing conversation. Loved it
Great to see 2 of my favourites youtubers together. Love the message! Some times with my friends, family and co-workers is a bit tough to decide whether to go hard or be more gentle, even though inside I feel this is a pressing matter.
@Kelly Duitmann really? Where did you get this info from?
@Kelly Duitmann It is neither good for me or for the animals who are exploited and killed for it. It is also highly resource expensive. I will look further into that information you gave. I wouldn't want to support a woman abuser no matter how good at vegan activism he is
@Kelly Duitmann I searched for this information about him and only the Dailymail seems to have this information AND it doesn't mention his ex-wife at all. He was at home detention with the shotgun and a knife. You may have misread it
Omg I became vegan because of Alex, and have been binging Joey lately, soooo exited to hear the conversation!
your comment makes me so happy. thank you for being a compassionete person ❤🙏
@@mayganphynix8267 I eat meat, and I don't think its wrong. Am I not a compassionate person?
@@JLydecka no u r not a compassionate person
I think there is room for all of these approaches. Change this massive will require every one of them, to target every facet of people’s associations with animal cruelty.
Aggressive reality, calm, open dialogue, demonstration, and yes, even the compassionate slaughterhouse workers.
The biggest challenge is getting people to empathise with other creatures, and to create an appropriate stigma around animal cruelty. Eventually, we need to make it recognised overwhelmingly as shameful. Just like slavery.
Agree 💯%
I'd be interested in seeing you debate someone anti-Vegan
It would be a great struggle to find someone who has given veganism serious, rational, moral thought, and then decided to be passionately against it. Most anti-vegans would be very hard to have an intellectual debate with. But if he could find such a person, I agree that would be very interesting and I would love to hear it myself.
@@RetryAgainAgain Shadow Starshine. He's somebody that his given the topic a lot of attention, and he is willing to converse with Cosmic. Cosmic can easily get in touch with him through Perspective Philosophy.
@@RetryAgainAgain can i ask u the reason y u think the plant argument is wrong
@@SAMSULEKMOTIVATION12 Vegans kill fewer plants than omnivores. It takes multiple pounds of plants to make a pound of meat. If you truly think plants suffer, then eating meat is an even more abhorrent moral monstrosity.
@@GS-lq2is right now vegans kill fewer plants then omnivores but if the whole planet goes vegan they kill ing of the plants will be ridiculous this is why I'm not vegan
Omg never been this early
I'm a big fan keep up the great work
56:53
Another crucial point
Absolute rubbish
@@sarabasney1698 How so?
100% one of the best points in the vid
@@LouisGedo no comparison between slaves and other animal species.
@@sarabasney1698 Your denial of logic is irrelevant to the fact that the comparison is most certainly apropos.
This is great, joey turned me vegan & Alex confirmed my belief as not illogical.
Keep doing these vids, maybe a James aspey vid would be great.
Sher Ali
How do you know if I don’t believe in god?
Do you believe in veganism?
@Sher Ali and may I know why?
I think a good person to talk to about this sort of stuff would be Jake Conroy from The Cranky Vegan YT channel. He was one of the key figures in the SHAC campaign in the 90s, and he spent time in prison for his non-violent activism. He'd have some great takes on this sort of stuff.
He is absolutely horrendous
@@vegantina6565 how so?
I agre with Vegan Tina. That guy is the ABSOLUTE WORST.
I don't love everything the guy says, but I agree that he'd be a good guest. It's always good to let ideas compete and let the public decide which ones are strongest.
I disagree with a lot of what he says, but I still enjoy his content. He talks about different issues to most other vegan youtubers, often trying to look at a larger picture that often gets ignored and I find gets me looking at activism differently.
The older I get, the less I like eating meat. I actually threw up once while I was eating chicken breast. We were talking about eating mammals that were once alive and I got a flash of the slaughter house and my mind violently rejected it and I was forced to throw up.
Blew my mind.
Edit: additional point. I still eat meat, but less often. I seem to be getting less mentally tolerant toward perceived harm toward animals. This is all in the last year since I adopted my first dog and I imagine everything happening to her and it flat out makes me sick.
So bizarre.
And why not go full vegan then?
@@lunav8026 I'm pretty much there but I don't really know enough to be healthy. I also have fibro myalgia so shopping is out of my hands at the moment. I'm at the mercy of my partner who is a die hard meat eater.
I'm working on changing the home dynamic. I'm trying to get us on a more natural diet. With growing at home.
Not sure I could be vegan tho. I don't see the issue with eggs and cheese.
But chickens aren't mammals.
@@fairwitness7473 look up dairy is scary on TH-cam
@@fairwitness7473 I understand your situation - that would be difficult. As to your question about eggs and cheese - the issue is *Most eggs are "harvested" with battery cage farming. So these poor chickens are in very small cages - living on wire their whole lives, just pumping out eggs (it is like a living hell). The cages are stacked VERY high - so the birds crap on each other. Just Google "battery cages" and you'll see photos. The next issue with eggs is the male birds. If you are a male bird in the egg farming industry, you probably won't survive your first week. Male birds obviously don't produce eggs - and they need very few male birds to produce more chickens. They also aren't raised for meat - because they are not the right breed (the egg-laying chickens are a specific breed). So the male birds are literally pulverized (alive) for feed (I don't know if for chickens or other animals). Any farmers - please feel free to correct me - as this is to the best of my knowledge.
As far as milk goes - the cows must be pregnant and/or have had a calf to produce milk. Then they take the calf away from the mom - because she needs to give all her milk to the dairy industry. The calf is usually then raised in groups of calves - and they are given milk for about the first 3 months of their lives (which is not natural - calves would normally stay with their moms up to 8 months). I'm not a farmer - so don't quote me on all this about cows - anyone else - please correct me. But basically, they induce pregnancy to produce milk - take the calves away to become meat (later) or milk producers (later). So it isn't humane and produces more suffering.
You can see YT videos of mother cows being reunited with their calves (at farm sanctuaries) and you can see how emotional these animals are. Cows typically have a very strong bond with their babies - and it is traumatic for the mother and the baby to be separated. Not to mention the animals being bred are just "feeding the supply" of milk, meat and suffering. You don't even want to know how cows are treated going into a slaughter house - and those are also "organic" cows as well. "Organic" does not mean humane.
Legendary podcast right here! Wonderful content, Alex!
Love you both of you ... great conversation thank you for speaking up for animals
Thought provoking podcast!
Thank you for this, I used to really dislike Joey's approach but this helped me see it differently. I think we need this type of activism along with the friendly, calm more apologetic approach. People need the harsh truth but also some comforting help to make a lifestyle and moral change this big.
This is the earliest I've been on your videos since the time difference is crazy. So happy and proud! Keep up the good work. 💕
Ooooh same! Should be sleeping but... Meh, worth it!
You're happy and proud to be early to a TH-cam video? Your life sucks.
@@Richard_Nickerson Eyyy, it's the small things. Besides, I think OP meant happy and proud about Alex doing well, not being early.
You don’t need to congratulate vegans. You say something like “isn’t it awesome!? This was one of the best decisions I have ever made!”
I would congratulate them in the same way i might congratulate them on their engagement or their promotion.
The last 3rd of this chat brought me to tears. I've been vegan for the animals for a yr and a half now (I'll never go back), but that last 3rd was beautiful. Please put that section on IG and Twitter.
So do you consider yorself a murederer for the years before? and if so why don't you seek for punishment for your crimes?
Gehrig75 wtf lol
Im so happy and grateful , there are people like you who take animals rights serious!🙏😍. It’s horrible the abuse and harm we put on the innocent living being :(, they can’t defend themselves and are totally dependent by our way to tried them. Ignorance must be the reason why people don’t care about animals feelings . Thanks to all the brave people who fight for the animals of the world 🙏😍💖👍
Great collab. Love both you guys.
having been a vegan for many years, it's really incredible to see that people are finally analyzing the moral dilemmas surrounding the consumption of animal products en masse. when i first started out, people thought i was losing my mind. now, people are finally having real discussions. for the first time, it feels like we're actually making a difference.
Great conversation lads, keep up the good work!🌱🖖💚
Two amazing youtubers!
Thank you for having this discussion
It was an awesome content as always, Alex, so thank you for that! We're not used to hear a lot of conversations about "how" to approach people about animal rights and I do believe it's a topic worth at least considering.
I agree with most of your arguments, but to be honest I'm happy even when people listening to me make any step toward a good change - e.g. meatless Mondays. I know from the moral stance it's not a perfect approach, but for me the most important thing is the amount of suffering which is lessened. So for example if you have seven people who say they won't ever go vegan but they might go without non-animal products for one day a week, we have a one vegan out of them, so isn't it better than discouraging them by saying it's not really enough? I mean, if every non-vegan person would do one meatless day a week, it would make a huge difference without that big of a, let's say, "sacrifice".
Two of my favorite TH-camrs right here.
Oh you just saved my sunday.
Very interesting video! Topics I'm thinking about again and again, too.
FUCK YES. Been waiting for this matchup
We actually live in a world where people are more concerned with how people speak out against injustice over the actual injustice of the systematic torture of billions of animals. These misplaced priorities really reflect our current culture.
Arschloch vom Dienst
Are you not against animal cruelty?
Arschloch vom Dienst
What about someone beating a dog on the street?
Arschloch vom Dienst
Sure you can care about some things more than others. It doesn’t matter where the dog is. Do you care if it is being beaten?
Arschloch vom Dienst
The human brain is capable of experiencing empathy. Empathy extends to all sentient creatures that have the ability to suffer. Which is why most people have the urge to help other humans and animals when in trouble. The only type of people who lack empathy are psychopaths. I guess this comment is addressing the majority of people who aren’t psychopaths and do see animal abuse as injustice.
@Arschloch vom Dienst I am really sorry, bad things must have happened in your life if you have become such a human being as you are presenting yourself here. Not much more (besides some ill-function of the brain) would explain such a lack of empathy. But I'm also sorry that you're causing harm in this world by being how you are.
Being an activist IS conveying your message even when people don't ask for it. Joey does a great job of that .
Great conversation! I really enjoy these kinds of videos
I just found you from that comment of yours on Earthling Ed's latest video and subscribed.
Lately Joey's activism has been coming across as abrasive to me, but its great to hear his perspective here.
The important thing is being active. It's hard to do what he does, especially bearing witness. Great interview Alex!
Thank you for picking joeys brain Alex!
Ty for another great topic and very well thought out perspective on it.
this was a great watch
it will be super interesting to see a conversation between you and Yuval Noah Harari
Thisssssssss
Oh hell yes, my two favourite vegans in one place. Keep up the great work you two!
Amazing conversation with many points to take home. At first, I also was a bit put off by Joey’s style, but with the time, I came to appreciate it more and more. What I love about Joey’s approach is something that’s hard to do for most people - NOT softening the message in order to be likable (or at least not to be disliked). Lots of vegans are trying too hard not to be perceived as ‘those extreme vegans’, and go as far as criticizing anyone who has guts to speak up frankly and strongly. And the solution here is simple, but needs to be reminded again and again, which again, Joey does beautifully - think from animal’s ( a victim) perspective. Thank you, both, for your work to bring more justice to the world, and to awaken better angels of people’s nature.
Thank you both for what you do! 🌱❤️
While I don't think vegans should "shut up," I do agree that going for the five second vitriolic sound-bite isn't the best way also. "MLMs are a pyramid scheme" and "Yahweh orders genocide" as sole talking points are in par with randomly shouting "dairy is rape" at people who, since school age, are taught that dairy is a fundamental food group and essential for healthy living. I agree with Drew that that approach is not likely to work, or may have negative results. In fact, I'd tune out anything that intentionally laced with vitriol and ignore the message entirely.
23:35
Yes......this is a crucial point. No one is really going to be compelled to change their culturally conditioned behavior unless they are made to seriously reflect on it; and personal discomfort is almost always the beginning point of serious reflection.
AYO!
@Arschloch vom Dienst That's your argument? The Tu quoque? First of all, all people are recommended by health professionals to supplement because nutritional deficiencies are common since common 'nutritional knowledge' isn't reliable. And people explain to me how a plastic bottle, which is to be recycled, is on par with the main cause of deforestation and extinction? Also explain to me how a bottle justifies caused suffering to other sentient beings to make your tongue tingle.
@Arschloch vom Dienst Clearly you're an irrational person as carnists, collectively or otherwise,
are typically responsible for far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far greater harm to the environment than vegans.
@Arschloch vom Dienst Ah, so you're one of those trolls who doesn't care about reality nor the arguments actually being made. You'd rather put the strawmen you prefer in place. We'll see how far you get in learning anything doing that. Adios
@Arschloch vom Dienst Clearly you are ignorant about what the term "carnist" means.......I'm going to do you a favor and clue you in: (definition 2 is most accurate IMO) www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=carnist
I've got a violife ad. So good 😍
Much respect for you 2 💚
Excellent discussion! Thank you!