I have mad respect for you. You make almost 3 hour long videos for a following of 3k subscribers but put in the effort of TH-camrs with a lot more. Keep going man
Sonic CD was being developed at the same time as Sonic 2 and is basically it's own sequel to Sonic 1. It tackles the issues in Sonic 1 quite differently compared to how Sonic 2 does.
IIRC they wanted to make sure that they were doing something completely different from Sonic 2, so they decided to focus on making the exploration-based stages fun rather than making the stages more speed based
@@PercyPanleo Sonic 2 and Sonic CD were made by different dev teams that had little-to-no communication with each other because SEGA was really bad about that.
As far as I’m aware, SA2 was not developed by an entirely new team. It was made up of a significantly smaller team than the first game, but many of the team members (including director and lead designer Takashi Iizuka) were alumni from SA1. A good portion of Sonic Team, many of whom worked on SA1, went over to San Francisco to form Sonic Team USA, where they completed development on the International Version of SA1 (the version released in Western countries, which featured substantial bug fixes and refinement compared to the original Japanese release), and this group went on to develop SA2 while remaining in America. Despite being called “Sonic Team USA”, nearly every team member was Japanese and brought over from Sonic Team Japan. I don’t think it’s accurate to say they’re an “entirely new team” when most of them worked on the first game. The change in SA2’s level design is more likely due to the decreased size of the team compared to SA1. SA1 had a team of over 50 people, while 2 had around 15-20. As a result, Iizuka only had one other level designer working alongside him, while he had far more assisting him for SA1.
I’d say some 06 stages had good level design but not all. Flame core, white acropolis, and aquatic base were pretty meh imo. But the other levels were fine. The game also has too many dash pads which feels like they placed just because of how slow sonic is. White acropolis had like 10 dash pads in a row clearly because sonic is slow.
@@gengargamer5657nearly all of the open zone platforming is automated and cyberspace levels are just levels from adventure two unleashed and generations
No lol. It has fine level design but you can notice immediately that all stages reuse the same level layout and only change enemy and item placement and the gimmicks. It's a worse sa1,because the levels are quite flat and don't take advantage of the physics because 06 had no good physics. I play p06 way too much and have grown to notice that stuff. Tails and blaze' wave ocean are blatant filler and tropical jungle can still be utterly broken by silver, shadow's dusty desert is still boring for being boxed in, the Elise stages are still limiting due to losing half your moves, and some vehicles are still extremely disposable like the buggy and the one motorbike section left which are pretty shallow,while at least the hovercraft and glider give you score attack opportunities.
1:48:43 actually, if you're good, you can skip a lot of the automation in the SD version utilizing the speed that going down rails and jumping off slopes and what not to skip rails or QTEs. For example, dragon road day. The day stage of dragon road has a waterfall shortcut with a QTE... but if you jump over the ramp that leads to it and boost you don't have to do it, or you can skip over the homing attack and rail in windmill isle day 2 by timing a jump off the vertical slope before the spring leading to it in the 2D section. Also for the boost format I'd personally say there's not a lack of momentum but rather a reassignment of momentum, it goes from vertical to centrifugal with drifting and steering, without completely getting rid of the momentum aspect due to the fact that in sonic unleashed and generations, there's a lot of cool small tricks only possible thanks to slope jumps
I lowkey expected ripping on CD's design, but I was pleasantly surprised at how fair and critical your analysis was. As one of the biggest CD enjoyers, one of my favourite things about it is how it allows you to experiment with various paths to time travel. The other day I found a cool way to time travel in Wacky Workbench Act 2 using the bouncy floor to prevent you from losing speed.
1:42:11 that section in that footage is actually an example of a mechanic found only in unleashed thats been cut from future games. Every 30 rings you have, the higher your top speed is, having a high enough top speed lets you actually avoid every single one of the falling pillars except the last one... which has a ramp to avoid it if you go right.
14:38 the game doesn't incentivise the player to use tails to reach higher paths because tails cannot fly in sonic 2. You're playing the sonic origins collection which backports a number of features from later games into the older titles.
2:39:00 "I'm not even gonna say that there are people that prefer Forces because I doubt that those people exist." Dang, I'm not even allowed to exist? Harsh. 😿
@@Cifesk The game is definitely one of the jankiest by far in terms of level design, sure, but in terms of bringing back the _fantasy_ of Shadow the Hedgehog's edginess, Sonic Heroes's team play, and the idea of a place where Sonic is a _concept/legend_ and not a living person, this is probably the closest I'll ever get. While the levels are very short, the way the number rings and red rings work gave me plenty of excuse to revisit my favorite levels in new ways. I would absolutely love if I had the game dev tools to reuse the game's engine for my own games, but my attempts at modding it have been extraordinarily painful to even get started. If I live long enough I am going to make my own spin on the general idea this game was going for. But I'm under no illusion that I could build it to the scope I want within my lifetime. Honestly, the *single* thing I'd go out of my way to remove are the Classic Sonic levels. A janky but attempted story didn't stop me from enjoying Freedom Planet, but the Classic Sonic bits are what make me want to turn Sonic Heroes and Sonic Forces off when I replay from a new file.
@@lpfan4491 Not really mocking, just inept. Which in a way is very fitting for something following the footsteps of Shadow the Hedgehog. The same attempt at edgy writing that comes off hilarious. The same ambition for a scope that they clearly don't have the time to polish...
I personally prefer more open levels, which is why the open zones of Frontiers are my favorite parts of the entire series. I love having a sandbox of sonic mechanics to mess around with, and the new update with the challenges and unlockable spin dash made them even better imo
Sonic Frontiers feels like a tony hawk game with all of the freedom in movement and all the small challenges spread evenly throught the zones, is really fun
1:53:56 Actually it's not because of the wii's capabilities, there's a file that basically says all the levels and each has a description, like tropical resort act 2: Second half of the old act 1. What actually happened is that the devs were too worried about players finishing the game within an hour and being like "... that's it? That's short I want a refund" since the other gameplay styles helped lengthen playtimes.
You've taken into account the approach and goal of each game's design. You were objective and fair, even with your favorite games. My respects for making a damn good video.
Not quite accurate. Tails flying machanic for Sonic 2 (and for Sonic 1) was introduced in the 2013 smartphone port, which is what Sonic 1, Sonic 2, and Sonic CD are basd on in Sonic Origins but slightly updated. The classic mode doesn't use the original Mega Drive/Genesis release, which can be misleading for newcomers.
@@eastbeast1379 not accurate yet again. Tails having the ability to carry sonic in sonic 3 and knuckles was available if you had player two controlling tails.
@@stanzacosmiThose who played Sonic Mega Collection or the Mega Drive/Genesis release of Sonic The Hedgehog 3 knows that. And I was just mentioning the smartphone ports of Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. While the person who originally posted this comment, mentioned it was from "Sonic 3" (meaning Mega Drive/Genesis release) with the Tails flying mechanic and the ability to carry Sonic in midair while Tails is flying. I didn't feel like the need to mention it was from Sonic The Hedgehog 3, or Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles. Mainly meaning for my comment to add on and explain which ports added the Tails flying mechanic and to carry Sonic in midair with Tails, to make it clearer to understand for those who didn't know the origin of where the flying mechanic came from, and which ports added it in. While your comment replying at mine just adds nothing but just to complaint about my comment that apparently seems like it's missing out information, that's already mentioned by SnaksiXD and Cifesk, that isn't far off from just mentioning Sonic 3. I don't see your comment mentioning it's from Mega Drive/Genesis of Sonic 3, or Sonic 3 & Knuckles, to correct it more, and before your *(Edited)* if you changed it after or added more to it after my reply. Perhaps get your eyes tested, or get better at England if you struggle to understand the language, infact. And in smartphone port of Sonic 1 and Sonic 2, with Sonic 1, Sonic 2, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles in Sonic Origins, Player 1 can make Tails fly, and to carry Sonic while flying in the air, with the jump button and d-pad up at the same time, tagging along with Sonic, with Amy (in Sonic Origins Plus expansion only), or just as Tails alone (same for Sonic 3 for Mega Drive/Genesis, with Player 2 only if Tails is tagging along with Sonic). Get your facts straight.
What a brilliant video. Loved to hear someone talk about the pros and cons to level design of sonic games as they are so unique and not many games to compare them to so it can become a bit confusing sometimes on what is good or not, but you have done a fantastic job of explaining it. You’ve earned yourself a new sub, keep it up.
Most people don’t understand Colors. If you actually learn the Level design, manage your boost, test when/how to use the wisps, then it instantly becomes just as fast as Unleashed.
I guess so, I just personally feel that most wisps don't really add to the experience or the levels, and consequently most people just end up hating them / not using them
@@Cifesk they allow you to find big shortcuts or new areas to explore, with the only lame wisp being cube cuz slow. It is however annoying that on a first playthrough you are forbidden from finding most of the alternate path because you haven't unlocked them yet.
I played Colors twice, once 100% and that does not really help matters. Speed does not automatically translate to fun, or else the mach speed sections in 06 would be the most fun part of that game even without fixing them(Which they are not). I am just not enjoying myself in that game, because the leveldesign, physics and playstyle are all mismatched among other issues.(Though ironically, I am the one and only person who thinks that the Wisps are the one good aspect of the game. I wish we got to see them in a generally faster game. Instead we only got rocket in Gens which is the worst showcase of their capabilities and in LW for some admittedly fun gimmick-sections.)
@@lpfan4491 Of course it isn’t, I was just addressing the complaint in the video regarding it not being as Fast as Unleashed. There’s more to what I was referring to than just being able to go fast.
First off love your videos! Second I’m shocked you weren’t a bit more positive on 06’s level design. The focus relied heavily on controls which I definitely get but I think P06 does a fantastic job proving how good the level design in 06 is from a foundational standpoint. Also Unleashed day stages have the best level design in the series. Don’t care what anyone says. It is easy enough if you want to mindlessly play through it but if you actually want to S Rank, it’s way more difficult and much more interesting with significantly more pathways than Generations
17:34 No, it was because they wanted to release it in time for a McDonald's promotion, but they only had half of the game ready. They also invented the lock-on tech _for_ this game specifically.
I’ve been looking for a video like this for a good while now. Level design makes or breaks a platformer and I think that’s extremely true for Sonic. Always wanted someone to talk more indepth about each game’s level design. Great analysis video!
Haven't watched it yet, but was so excited to see such a long video on the topic recommended to me. I'll edit this after I actually get through it, but I just wanted say that I've been looking for a comprehensive video on this topic for a long time!
For some reason linear is inherently bad for some people. The degree of linearity and how engaging that line is is something they don't consider. Re4 is a linear game yet it's extremely fun. Same for the boost games since you need to react fast to obstacles
I believe that linearity is mostly about difficulty and frustrating segments. In linear stage falling into pit kills you, in nonlinear you have another path. In linear stage you can't skip annoying sections (for example - requiring waiting). If the stage is designed with correctly balanced difficulty that allows for expression of mastery without requiring it and there aren't frustrating moments, then alternate paths are not required for fun levels.
I know this is a late reply, but I secretly wish they'd do Heroes team concept again one day but with the levels having a bit more polish. (Like cleaning up any stiffness, or letting your fly character have less restriction) It might be because Heroes is my favourite Sonic game, but I could imagine the improvements they could make for it to be a really awesome game.
1:43:03 There has been automation since Sonic 2, and in the case of Unleashed if you just let the automation move you without reacting you will end up falling off
I agree, even in chemical plant it is littered with Boost pads and when there wasnt, how much input is the player putting in when Sonic goes down a slope? Lol either holding right or pressing down
Boost actually traces back further than rush, Sonic advance 2 had it and even further back sonic CD kind of had it too. Once you hit a time travel sign and get up to speed you have white sparks that will kill enemies that you run into. It's obscure and hardly used but it's there.
In Sonic 2's original console version, Tails' flight cannot be used by the player. This was added in the 2013 remake, which is the version used in Origins.
You forgot one important thing…Sonic Mania’s Hydrocity Act 1. An extremely slow crawl compared to Sonic 3’s version. Adding tons of references does not alleviate this issue. Players who play this game all the time, starting from the first level, usually tend to stop here. That or Stardust Speedway Act 1.
This might be one of the rarest moments where a channel with such a low subscriber count could make around 2 and a half hour long video. All this while commenting on the retrospective of one of the most dubious aspects of the Sonic Series in my opinion. You deserve an award for that, for real, and may you grow more and more with your content, but for now, +1 subscriber! 😊
I prefer the level design in Unleashed than Generations. Generations has more platforming but its mostly 2D sections and less 3D. and when its 3D there's barely room to move around in most areas. Unleashed day stages last longer and has cool mini bosses at the end of some stages. And Sonic controlled better. Sonic in Generations when you don't press the boost button and just run around, Sonic feels heavier to control than in Unleashed
this video is amazing, only half way through rn. why have i never seen any of your content before?? defs subscribing (also heroes is my favorite game too :3)
I think it's so cool how you express your love for each of these games, naming Heroes as your favorite of all time. There's a lot of odd bashing amongst Sonic fans where games are touted as "bad" or worse with no real reasons/justifications given. It becomes a weird game of reinforcing the "approved" liked titles while crapping on ones you aren't "supposed" to. THIS video and hell, the fact that you gave analysis' with reasons for gripes is so nice. I love this franchise and have for a long time, I'm not shy about that either, I just wish other fans would bring their discourse for it to a higher level of sophistication instead of parroting opinions they've hear in game reviews.
Pretty neat video you got right here. On an additional note, I'm glad that you tackled Colors in way that isn't just, "Ugh fake 3D game. Worse than 06. This the true beginning of the Dark Age of Sonic." that a lot of modern fans say nowadays. You laid out the strengths of the gameplay while still pointing out its flaws without saying it "ruined Sonic" for the past decade.
People are just dumb. I am literally on the side of the argument you are talking about and I am not going to say non-statements like that. Its gameplay and leveldesign only impacted Forces if anything, Gens and LW(Which I think are good to great games gameplay-wise) have nothing to do with Colors in that regard. It's also not "bad because it is fake 3D", it just annoys me that even officially, it is sited as the game that first got 3D Sonic right, because...lol. If the only right way to make 3D Sonic is to make 2D Sonic with a few 3D moments, then we may as well have stuck to full 2D anyhow. I'd much rather not have 3D Sonic than to entertain the idea that peanutbutter gets better the fewer peanuts are in it.
@@lpfan4491 That's understandable. A lot of praise of the game does feel misplaced, but I still like Colors purely because it's an honest game. Like as much as I enjoyed the Adventure games and Generations, they definitely feel like they needed to add an extra playstyle because Sega/Sonic Team weren't confident in Sonic's sole gameplay. Colors just exudes confidence in itself, and you can tell from the moment they drop you into the first stage with no other cutscenes. I don't think the highs Colors have will beat the Adventure games, Unleashed, or Generations, but it definitely is more consistent in its quality than 75% of those games.
I actually like all 5 of SA2's Playstyles & most of its fans enjoy at least 2 of the Main 3 & the Chao. The hate of the different characters & different playstyles is nonsense that hurt the series for the past 15 years. Colors for Wii had awful level design (that wasn't a death pit? or the luck based lasers that crab shoots) was just Sonic, & had possibly the worst story in the series. The dishonest praise mentioned earlier that Colors got really hurt the series for the entire 2010s. Sonic Adventure got 3D Sonic right before 1998 ended almost 25 years ago yet some reviewers like to hate on it & Adventure 2 just because they could. Anyone can publish hate for things, that doesn't mean its true. Could you imagine if some influential TH-camrs started crusading against Sonic Generations? Actually what if we did try that the same way the Adventure haters did a decade ago? Then opinion could be swayed & it would be history repeating itself all over with 1 of the most beloved 3D Games in the series randomly being hated just because a few guys didn't like the level selection or the playstyles. I'm sure kids will defend Sonic Forces in a few years as it got overhated for not being Sonic Generations 2 possibly like how the Unleashed Fanbase came to exist. When I was a kid we didn't hate Heroes for not being Sonic Adventure 3, even if we were disappointed by certain changes like removal of Chao Gardens.
@@WaterKirby1994 I find it ironic that you said that, "Anyone can publish hate for things, that doesn't mean it's true," right after saying that Colors Wii had both the worst level design and story in the franchise. Which is funny considering that the 2 mainline games after Generations, Lost World and Forces are mighty contenders for those spots. Colors' story isn't my favorite, but the worst part is its small scale compared to the previous stories, which isn't even that bad because the game isn't trying to be a large-scale story. It's not like Lost World or Forces where they're trying to have big, serious moments while failing at it completely with tons of missed potential in their world-building and new characters. And in terms of level design, Colors isn't the best at it, but I can at least tell that the wisps were made to add some level of depth to the levels and added replay value, and that they were completely original. Lost World is all over the place with the level design and I can remember only half of the stages being worthwhile, and Forces pretty much is on autopilot for 90% of the playthrough (the grunts don't even attack you, something every other 3D Sonic had).
One more thing; I speedrun some sonic forces levels, and forces’ level design only really when trying to go as fast as possible (with the main example being spaceport, the main level I speedrun) Just thought you should know from the perspective of a speedrunner.
Generations Sonic is, in terms of speed, just Unleashed Sonic with max stats. He feels faster in Unleashed due to differences with the camera, zooming in/out more and more exaggerated FOV in general especially when boosting
Sorry for commenting on this a year later, but this is not actually the case. While I loathe to use mods to compare this, the Unleashed Project mod for Gens is almost 1 to 1 level design wise with Unleashed proper (genuinely the only difference is a shorter aero chaser sequence in Jungle Joyride Day.), so we can use it for comparison. Loading Windmill Isle in both Unleashed with a max stat Sonic and Gens, Unleashed is notably faster than Gens. If anything, the time to beat Windmill Isle Act 2 on Gens aligns with a level 1 Unleashed Sonic.
Just a quick heads up, since you're playing Sonic Origins for the classics, Tails is introduced in Sonic 2, but in the original he cannot fly, making him a reskin essentially. Even I don't mean for this to come off as rude, just thought I would notify you! Great video!
2:00:45 It's actually because of some of the visual effects being toned down, from what I remember, internally, sonic's actually FASTER than unleashed in generations, but the visual effects and tighter drift don't sell that as well.
Sonic 3's split was not actually due to storage limitations at all, it was entirely because SEGA needed Sonic 3 out in some capacity that could be considered acceptable in time for a McDonalds collab
Having played Lost World time attack mode recently, while it can be argued that infinite spindash can substitute for boost, I’d still put this with the adventure formula. Getting S rank here felt more in line to Adventure 1 and Heroes. Frontiers feels like of merged of both adventure and boost
Pretty sure Sonic Team did *not* make Sonic R, not sure how they would have gotten experience making 3D enviroments from a game they didn't work on. Pretty sure the developer of Sonic R also made Sonic 3D Blast\Sonic: Flicky's Island. I think one of the developers has a TH-cam channel called "GameHut"? Should be the @GameHut TH-cam handle.
Ah yeah, I missed it on my own accord after hitting a spring that locks your controls while riding a rail that pushes you forwards automatically LMAOOOOOOO Be serious
Iizuka is really a GOAT, bro designed a bunch of full length levels all by himself. Meanwhile Frontiers had 6 level designers and the level design turned out Shit for the most part.
@@sundaewashere Yup, you wanna know something even FUNNIER. 5 of them Were complete Newbies with only the Lead Level designer having previous experience with ONE Sonic game, that game being Sonic Forces.
Original levels in Frontiers have been quite good. But there are only few of them, majority is just copypaste from SA2, Unleashed and Generations. Also, don't forget that level designers also worked on overworld, not just cyberspace.
@@Gnidel The Original levels were fine, the Best ones were way too short. Open Zone level design was shit but I guess that’s what happens when you have 6 people working on 5 Whole islands. The Recent Koco Challenges had the Best Platforming and Level Design in the Entire game.
If there is one thing that Forces did correctly, it's playing two characters at the same time. The swap mechanic worked pretty well during gameplay, with better level design and more different abilities the team levels could have been really good.
I thought the non-beta/cut content videos gonna be boring and uninteresting, but this made me think to replay some games just to enjoy and understand things you talked about. Idea for next video: Music retrospective? I know someone did it before but not so complex how you could.
17:38 I think it was primarily the McDonald’s deal that caused the game to be split in two. Like I can see it happening in general with the size of the game, but I think we would’ve had more levels in 3 if it wasn’t for the deal.
1:05:21 You can really tell how good a usage of character switching is in a level by trying to beat it with only the speed character... sonic can beat every level except i believe it was mystic mansion and final fortress entirely by himself
Fuck, maybe I actually am autistic if I'm more than happy to watch a 3 hour video on sonic the hedgehog level design. Also you're the MAN for putting this much time and effort into a video like this, gotta appreciate the grind.
Sonic Unleashed level design is PEAK becuase it does MORE with LESS, it's level design has less paths than other games but those paths are very hidden, making those pathways satisfacting to reach
Quando vi no canto "proeza desbloqueada" e prestei atenção no sotaque percebi logo que devias ser português (se não fosse isso, nunca teria suspeitado). Adoro ver essays extremamente longos de Sonic, e ver de um português ainda torna a experiência mais incrível. O vídeo está espetacular, vou ver os outros conteúdos que fizeste também. Nunca pares
51:33 The ports didn't help with this either, they made rails much more sensitive than on the Dreamcast Also, Sonic Team didn't have any involvement (At least not directly) with either 3D Blast or R, those were made by Travelers Tales at a time where Sonic Team was working on other properties (Specifically Nights) and struggling to make their own 3D Sonic game
Hate to be that guy, but SA2 didn’t look better because they were able to take full advantage of the hardware. Sonic Adventure was in development at the same time as the Dreamcast, so Sonic Team was actually able to make requests for hardware specs.
I disagree on cd part while it's true the game is supposed to be about exploration and not speed i still think it feels bad, the level design is odd and confusing at times, and while exploration is good it do feel like the levels play like a labyrinth at times which i don't think is really that good, if you're playing the game i normally i suppose is ok but if you're trying to say enjoy the time mechanic or find the generators it's painful. The generators are generally hidden in very specific spots of the level and there is only 1 of them per level, this make it very painful to find generators since they're like finding a needle in the middle of the hay, to make matters worse some levels don't let you proceed backwards after a certain point, which is horrible if you're trying to get the generators, to make matters worse time travelling is a mess because it's literally about going fast to activate it (after using the signs of course) yet the level design is very platform based or not really straight, yes there is some levels that are easier to time travel (ex stardust speedway) but for the most part it's painful to time travel in the levels, in fact the devs knew about it, so they inserted certain "time machines" in the levels for easier travelling, like putting 2 springs next to each other, but is still decently painful. The special stage is also very oof in terms of difficulty, it's very hard to control sonic there, and the ufo movements can sometimes make it messy to hit them. If someone is reading this and dislike cd just like me or at least the level design i recommend playing the fangame sonic time twisted, it's like if cd and 3&k had a child, and a awesome child, they also made time travelling easier there by making so the moment sonic runs through a sign it's instantly a time travel, too that does mean levels have less signs and some of them are gave to you by rewarding you through certain paths.
I think you made valid points which I do agree with, though I disagree that the levels feel like a labyrinth, maybe because I've played the game a lot so I know the stages by heart at this point, but even then I don't think they're very hard to get the hang of, though definitely harder than the other classic games
I think part of the issue is that if u played CD through only the taxman release ur experience wit the Timetravel is worse cus for some reason the time taken to activate it is lengthened in that version & it's the 1 MOST ppl play
@@Cifesk I played cd like 5 times as a child and 2 times as a adult, and i still can't get a hang on the level design lol. Anyway if they fixed those issues and maybe inserted more generators in the level but only forced the player to destroy 1 of them, while still keeping a decent amount of exploration ala s3&k (like say whatever you want about s3&k not being about exploration, some of those giant rings are really well hidden you need to admit it) it would be a good game in my opinion. Oh also i would love if the time twisted time travel system of just running through the sign and time travelling would be inserted, it would allow levels to keep their own designs but also not stopping the player from time travelling thanks to the wack level design or being forced to use those "time machines" i mentioned earlier. And the special stage, i will be honest i wouldn't mind if it just got replaced lol. Anyway if you feel like doing those changes would stop CD being CD that's completely fair, at least for me it would improve my own personal fun and encourage me to explore the levels more, but of course my fun is not everyone's fun.
It's a huge shame people don't understand the greatness of the boost, Adventure and even the amazing Warehog formula when it was the best way to evolve the tedious boring and level design of the classics that for some reason people still enjoy. Don't really get how that's not fun for some, seems like nitpicking for the sake of delusional nostlagia to me. Great video btw :D
I've only played the classic sonic games, but I have the opposite opinion of this video. My problem with them is that the game's character and how he controls does not fit with the level design. He's fast, slippery, and yet the levels are designed with constant bumps that completely stop your character, or even worse, bounce him all the way back in the direction he just came from. Then you have some fairly precise platforming you have to do, but the character's speed/slipperiness is not conducive to that, the character controller is just not built for that, but it's constantly used for that. People argue, memorize the level layout, but why should I ever do that if I'm not a speedrunner? It should be fun from the very first go, I never had to memorize a mario level to be able to play through it with the exact same experience as intended. Sonic was Sega's attempt at making a mascot for their consoles in that era, and it shows as a corporate hackjob.
YES thank you, finally someone who doesnt just uncritically praise Classic sonic games lol The whole memorizing the level arguement is always cheap I think because with every game you play better if u memorize the level layout, but it's even harder to do so with Sonic with all the different paths :(
If they ever remaster sonic unleashed I wonder if they'll decide bundle both HD and SD versions together for the definitive experience. Since the HD levels have drastically different layouts than the SD version. I'm not saying it would have you play all HD and SD levels in one story. Maybe when you start a new game it'll give you the choice of which level versions you like to play on. It would prioritize which versions the game uses for the story and the levels of the other version you didnt choose will be put in its own menu as an option to play on your own time.
Great video & breakdown. But just want to point out that the core members of Sonic Team relocated from Japan to San Fransisco during development of SA2. So SA1 & 2 were made by the same developers
I love this video. Such a long video covering everygame in such detail. Great job. Its clear youre a huge sonic fan and have really played all of them a lot. But have to disagree with SA2 being better. Nerfed spin dash, the paths are a lot more restricted, SA1 was already pretty linear but SA2 removes any chance of going off the beaten path and the level themes are a lot less interesting. I like SA2 dont get me wrong but SA1 Sonic's levels are far superior for me. But i agree lineraity is never a bad thing when done well. SA2 levels are fun and the boost levels are almost entirely linear with chances here and there for reflexes based shortcuts and i love those too
Thank you! Though I don't think I have ever stated that I think SA2's level design is better than SA1's. I mean, from an objective point of view it's definitely more refined and fleshed out, but personally I prefer SA1's a lot more
@@Cifesk I guess you didnt explicitly say that. Was hard to get a read as you were positive on both lol. SA2 is good i just feel its a series of soft QTEs. Like no freedom run down a straight line press button here for light dash push button here to somersault over. Like it doesnt really add any, theres barely any platforming in SA2 imo. Which is fine. Still fun. But SA1 def had more freedom and outside of maybe Frontiers i still think SA1 still has the best 3d sonic levels to this day. The boost games have great level design too but its a whole different animal of level design to compare. Also side note im a weirdo and really like Lost World. It might not be a good "Sonic" game or whatever that means but i admire what sonic team tried to do theres a lot of variety in the levels and i think there are more hits then misses by a wide margain
I have mad respect for you. You make almost 3 hour long videos for a following of 3k subscribers but put in the effort of TH-camrs with a lot more. Keep going man
💙
all because of a stupid idea I can up with in 2 minutes
@@Itz_YoshiMelon the simple idea was executed well though
@@purrfectisepictrue
@@Itz_YoshiMelongenerational hater
Sonic CD was being developed at the same time as Sonic 2 and is basically it's own sequel to Sonic 1. It tackles the issues in Sonic 1 quite differently compared to how Sonic 2 does.
IIRC they wanted to make sure that they were doing something completely different from Sonic 2, so they decided to focus on making the exploration-based stages fun rather than making the stages more speed based
@@PercyPanleo Sonic 2 and Sonic CD were made by different dev teams that had little-to-no communication with each other because SEGA was really bad about that.
@@PercyPanleodamn that's weird
i felt way faster in cd than in 2
@@Fall-oo6mtIf you go for the generators, then it's probably because CD encourages you to maintain speed to travel through time.
As far as I’m aware, SA2 was not developed by an entirely new team. It was made up of a significantly smaller team than the first game, but many of the team members (including director and lead designer Takashi Iizuka) were alumni from SA1.
A good portion of Sonic Team, many of whom worked on SA1, went over to San Francisco to form Sonic Team USA, where they completed development on the International Version of SA1 (the version released in Western countries, which featured substantial bug fixes and refinement compared to the original Japanese release), and this group went on to develop SA2 while remaining in America. Despite being called “Sonic Team USA”, nearly every team member was Japanese and brought over from Sonic Team Japan. I don’t think it’s accurate to say they’re an “entirely new team” when most of them worked on the first game.
The change in SA2’s level design is more likely due to the decreased size of the team compared to SA1. SA1 had a team of over 50 people, while 2 had around 15-20. As a result, Iizuka only had one other level designer working alongside him, while he had far more assisting him for SA1.
06 had the best level design of the 3D era, all of Sonic's sections in Kingdom Valley are top tier.
Frontiers has great design too
I’d say some 06 stages had good level design but not all. Flame core, white acropolis, and aquatic base were pretty meh imo. But the other levels were fine. The game also has too many dash pads which feels like they placed just because of how slow sonic is. White acropolis had like 10 dash pads in a row clearly because sonic is slow.
@@gengargamer5657nearly all of the open zone platforming is automated and cyberspace levels are just levels from adventure two unleashed and generations
No lol. It has fine level design but you can notice immediately that all stages reuse the same level layout and only change enemy and item placement and the gimmicks. It's a worse sa1,because the levels are quite flat and don't take advantage of the physics because 06 had no good physics. I play p06 way too much and have grown to notice that stuff. Tails and blaze' wave ocean are blatant filler and tropical jungle can still be utterly broken by silver, shadow's dusty desert is still boring for being boxed in, the Elise stages are still limiting due to losing half your moves, and some vehicles are still extremely disposable like the buggy and the one motorbike section left which are pretty shallow,while at least the hovercraft and glider give you score attack opportunities.
@@artin8173 that is why it's good tho, it's got all the best level design from the series as a technicality
1:48:43 actually, if you're good, you can skip a lot of the automation in the SD version utilizing the speed that going down rails and jumping off slopes and what not to skip rails or QTEs. For example, dragon road day. The day stage of dragon road has a waterfall shortcut with a QTE... but if you jump over the ramp that leads to it and boost you don't have to do it, or you can skip over the homing attack and rail in windmill isle day 2 by timing a jump off the vertical slope before the spring leading to it in the 2D section.
Also for the boost format I'd personally say there's not a lack of momentum but rather a reassignment of momentum, it goes from vertical to centrifugal with drifting and steering, without completely getting rid of the momentum aspect due to the fact that in sonic unleashed and generations, there's a lot of cool small tricks only possible thanks to slope jumps
I lowkey expected ripping on CD's design, but I was pleasantly surprised at how fair and critical your analysis was. As one of the biggest CD enjoyers, one of my favourite things about it is how it allows you to experiment with various paths to time travel. The other day I found a cool way to time travel in Wacky Workbench Act 2 using the bouncy floor to prevent you from losing speed.
1:42:11 that section in that footage is actually an example of a mechanic found only in unleashed thats been cut from future games. Every 30 rings you have, the higher your top speed is, having a high enough top speed lets you actually avoid every single one of the falling pillars except the last one... which has a ramp to avoid it if you go right.
14:38 the game doesn't incentivise the player to use tails to reach higher paths because tails cannot fly in sonic 2. You're playing the sonic origins collection which backports a number of features from later games into the older titles.
59:04 Actually sonic adventure 2 was, as soon as sega stopped making consoles it was ported to gamecube within 6 months
2:39:00 "I'm not even gonna say that there are people that prefer Forces because I doubt that those people exist."
Dang, I'm not even allowed to exist? Harsh. 😿
Stop lying to yourself...
@@Cifesk The game is definitely one of the jankiest by far in terms of level design, sure, but in terms of bringing back the _fantasy_ of Shadow the Hedgehog's edginess, Sonic Heroes's team play, and the idea of a place where Sonic is a _concept/legend_ and not a living person, this is probably the closest I'll ever get.
While the levels are very short, the way the number rings and red rings work gave me plenty of excuse to revisit my favorite levels in new ways.
I would absolutely love if I had the game dev tools to reuse the game's engine for my own games, but my attempts at modding it have been extraordinarily painful to even get started.
If I live long enough I am going to make my own spin on the general idea this game was going for. But I'm under no illusion that I could build it to the scope I want within my lifetime.
Honestly, the *single* thing I'd go out of my way to remove are the Classic Sonic levels. A janky but attempted story didn't stop me from enjoying Freedom Planet, but the Classic Sonic bits are what make me want to turn Sonic Heroes and Sonic Forces off when I replay from a new file.
@@AnnCatsanndra More like it makes a mockery of those concepts.
@@lpfan4491 Not really mocking, just inept. Which in a way is very fitting for something following the footsteps of Shadow the Hedgehog. The same attempt at edgy writing that comes off hilarious. The same ambition for a scope that they clearly don't have the time to polish...
@@AnnCatsanndra (Except shadow the hedgehog honestly did it better)
I personally prefer more open levels, which is why the open zones of Frontiers are my favorite parts of the entire series. I love having a sandbox of sonic mechanics to mess around with, and the new update with the challenges and unlockable spin dash made them even better imo
Sonic Frontiers feels like a tony hawk game with all of the freedom in movement and all the small challenges spread evenly throught the zones, is really fun
I really need more people noticing video game's level design/pacing
1:53:56 Actually it's not because of the wii's capabilities, there's a file that basically says all the levels and each has a description, like tropical resort act 2: Second half of the old act 1. What actually happened is that the devs were too worried about players finishing the game within an hour and being like "... that's it? That's short I want a refund" since the other gameplay styles helped lengthen playtimes.
You've taken into account the approach and goal of each game's design. You were objective and fair, even with your favorite games. My respects for making a damn good video.
Tails having the ability to carry Sonic wasn't introduced until Sonic 3
You're right, I didn't realise that was introduced in Origins for Sonic 2
same with the insta-shield/wide spin reflecting projectiles @@Cifesk
Not quite accurate. Tails flying machanic for Sonic 2 (and for Sonic 1) was introduced in the 2013 smartphone port, which is what Sonic 1, Sonic 2, and Sonic CD are basd on in Sonic Origins but slightly updated. The classic mode doesn't use the original Mega Drive/Genesis release, which can be misleading for newcomers.
@@eastbeast1379 not accurate yet again. Tails having the ability to carry sonic in sonic 3 and knuckles was available if you had player two controlling tails.
@@stanzacosmiThose who played Sonic Mega Collection or the Mega Drive/Genesis release of Sonic The Hedgehog 3 knows that. And I was just mentioning the smartphone ports of Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. While the person who originally posted this comment, mentioned it was from "Sonic 3" (meaning Mega Drive/Genesis release) with the Tails flying mechanic and the ability to carry Sonic in midair while Tails is flying. I didn't feel like the need to mention it was from Sonic The Hedgehog 3, or Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles. Mainly meaning for my comment to add on and explain which ports added the Tails flying mechanic and to carry Sonic in midair with Tails, to make it clearer to understand for those who didn't know the origin of where the flying mechanic came from, and which ports added it in.
While your comment replying at mine just adds nothing but just to complaint about my comment that apparently seems like it's missing out information, that's already mentioned by SnaksiXD and Cifesk, that isn't far off from just mentioning Sonic 3. I don't see your comment mentioning it's from Mega Drive/Genesis of Sonic 3, or Sonic 3 & Knuckles, to correct it more, and before your *(Edited)* if you changed it after or added more to it after my reply. Perhaps get your eyes tested, or get better at England if you struggle to understand the language, infact.
And in smartphone port of Sonic 1 and Sonic 2, with Sonic 1, Sonic 2, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles in Sonic Origins, Player 1 can make Tails fly, and to carry Sonic while flying in the air, with the jump button and d-pad up at the same time, tagging along with Sonic, with Amy (in Sonic Origins Plus expansion only), or just as Tails alone (same for Sonic 3 for Mega Drive/Genesis, with Player 2 only if Tails is tagging along with Sonic). Get your facts straight.
What a brilliant video. Loved to hear someone talk about the pros and cons to level design of sonic games as they are so unique and not many games to compare them to so it can become a bit confusing sometimes on what is good or not, but you have done a fantastic job of explaining it. You’ve earned yourself a new sub, keep it up.
bro ur voice is actually so soothing, ngl i dont mean this in a negative way but sometimes ill put one of ur videos on to fall asleep
Most people don’t understand Colors. If you actually learn the Level design, manage your boost, test when/how to use the wisps, then it instantly becomes just as fast as Unleashed.
I guess so, I just personally feel that most wisps don't really add to the experience or the levels, and consequently most people just end up hating them / not using them
@@Cifesk they allow you to find big shortcuts or new areas to explore, with the only lame wisp being cube cuz slow. It is however annoying that on a first playthrough you are forbidden from finding most of the alternate path because you haven't unlocked them yet.
I played Colors twice, once 100% and that does not really help matters. Speed does not automatically translate to fun, or else the mach speed sections in 06 would be the most fun part of that game even without fixing them(Which they are not). I am just not enjoying myself in that game, because the leveldesign, physics and playstyle are all mismatched among other issues.(Though ironically, I am the one and only person who thinks that the Wisps are the one good aspect of the game. I wish we got to see them in a generally faster game. Instead we only got rocket in Gens which is the worst showcase of their capabilities and in LW for some admittedly fun gimmick-sections.)
@@lpfan4491 Of course it isn’t, I was just addressing the complaint in the video regarding it not being as Fast as Unleashed. There’s more to what I was referring to than just being able to go fast.
@@Terminal_Apotos Yeah, I apologize for jumping the gun a bit.
First off love your videos! Second I’m shocked you weren’t a bit more positive on 06’s level design. The focus relied heavily on controls which I definitely get but I think P06 does a fantastic job proving how good the level design in 06 is from a foundational standpoint.
Also Unleashed day stages have the best level design in the series. Don’t care what anyone says. It is easy enough if you want to mindlessly play through it but if you actually want to S Rank, it’s way more difficult and much more interesting with significantly more pathways than Generations
17:34 No, it was because they wanted to release it in time for a McDonald's promotion, but they only had half of the game ready. They also invented the lock-on tech _for_ this game specifically.
I’ve been looking for a video like this for a good while now. Level design makes or breaks a platformer and I think that’s extremely true for Sonic. Always wanted someone to talk more indepth about each game’s level design. Great analysis video!
Your final thoughts are really brilliant and clear and thoughtful, so needed in our community
Haven't watched it yet, but was so excited to see such a long video on the topic recommended to me. I'll edit this after I actually get through it, but I just wanted say that I've been looking for a comprehensive video on this topic for a long time!
we were all shocked by the hour and a half long adventure video but nearly 3 hours! Good work Cifesk, you definitely need a break!
I can’t believe an analysis of sonic levels haven’t really been done before, at least to this degree.
I've been using this video to help me sleep for 4 weeks now. Thank you Cifesk.
1:41:55 They completely fit the design of the stages wich is based on fast reaction
For some reason linear is inherently bad for some people. The degree of linearity and how engaging that line is is something they don't consider. Re4 is a linear game yet it's extremely fun. Same for the boost games since you need to react fast to obstacles
I believe that linearity is mostly about difficulty and frustrating segments. In linear stage falling into pit kills you, in nonlinear you have another path. In linear stage you can't skip annoying sections (for example - requiring waiting). If the stage is designed with correctly balanced difficulty that allows for expression of mastery without requiring it and there aren't frustrating moments, then alternate paths are not required for fun levels.
Linear stages have one big issue, replayability. Being able to play a stage a bit differently is incredibly valuable.
@@samtheweebo Well, it is possible to make stages both linear and have branching paths at the same time, through the use of shortcuts. Like Unwiished.
If said linear game is polished and interesting, then does it matter that you're in for the same experience?
@@fictionalmediabully9830 Yes
This video is amazing, seriously, your dedication is impressive. I hope your efforts will be rewarded ✌️
Saw video title, saw video length, subscribed to your channel.
My new favorite channel. Keep up the way past cool work.
I know this is a late reply, but I secretly wish they'd do Heroes team concept again one day but with the levels having a bit more polish. (Like cleaning up any stiffness, or letting your fly character have less restriction)
It might be because Heroes is my favourite Sonic game, but I could imagine the improvements they could make for it to be a really awesome game.
1:43:03 There has been automation since Sonic 2, and in the case of Unleashed if you just let the automation move you without reacting you will end up falling off
1:36:41
I agree, even in chemical plant it is littered with Boost pads and when there wasnt, how much input is the player putting in when Sonic goes down a slope? Lol either holding right or pressing down
Boost actually traces back further than rush, Sonic advance 2 had it and even further back sonic CD kind of had it too. Once you hit a time travel sign and get up to speed you have white sparks that will kill enemies that you run into. It's obscure and hardly used but it's there.
45:25 in Sonic 3D Blast you can use the homing attack with one of the shields
In Sonic 2's original console version, Tails' flight cannot be used by the player. This was added in the 2013 remake, which is the version used in Origins.
You forgot one important thing…Sonic Mania’s Hydrocity Act 1. An extremely slow crawl compared to Sonic 3’s version. Adding tons of references does not alleviate this issue. Players who play this game all the time, starting from the first level, usually tend to stop here. That or Stardust Speedway Act 1.
This might be one of the rarest moments where a channel with such a low subscriber count could make around 2 and a half hour long video. All this while commenting on the retrospective of one of the most dubious aspects of the Sonic Series in my opinion. You deserve an award for that, for real, and may you grow more and more with your content, but for now, +1 subscriber! 😊
59:16 nope, Dreamcast is from the same generation as PS2, Xbox and Gamecube.
sonic 06's level design was goated tbh
I agree
True but some of them suffered from Annoying elements like Carrying Elise, Playing as other Characters, and Constant Combat Encounters.
@@Terminal_Apotos but it changes up the gameplay ya know?
@@40kkidlock18 For the Worse.
@@Terminal_Apotos plus how is other characters bad i hear ppl say playing as sonic for an entire game sucks
I prefer the level design in Unleashed than Generations. Generations has more platforming but its mostly 2D sections and less 3D. and when its 3D there's barely room to move around in most areas. Unleashed day stages last longer and has cool mini bosses at the end of some stages. And Sonic controlled better. Sonic in Generations when you don't press the boost button and just run around, Sonic feels heavier to control than in Unleashed
Wow. That's what I call dedication. You've got a new sub
this video is amazing, only half way through rn. why have i never seen any of your content before?? defs subscribing (also heroes is my favorite game too :3)
This might be the best video I’ve ever seen, it was an honour to watch it
I remember having the Sonic 3 strategy guide and being especially mind-blown by the Marble Garden layout. It's god-tier
A great video, glad I subbed awhile ago. You and Pariah are very underrated Sonic related TH-camrs.
3 hour video essay from a YT I don't know? I will be watching.
I think it's so cool how you express your love for each of these games, naming Heroes as your favorite of all time. There's a lot of odd bashing amongst Sonic fans where games are touted as "bad" or worse with no real reasons/justifications given. It becomes a weird game of reinforcing the "approved" liked titles while crapping on ones you aren't "supposed" to. THIS video and hell, the fact that you gave analysis' with reasons for gripes is so nice.
I love this franchise and have for a long time, I'm not shy about that either, I just wish other fans would bring their discourse for it to a higher level of sophistication instead of parroting opinions they've hear in game reviews.
"Speed is a reward for memorizing the levels" "momentuuuuum"
Pretty neat video you got right here. On an additional note, I'm glad that you tackled Colors in way that isn't just, "Ugh fake 3D game. Worse than 06. This the true beginning of the Dark Age of Sonic." that a lot of modern fans say nowadays. You laid out the strengths of the gameplay while still pointing out its flaws without saying it "ruined Sonic" for the past decade.
People are just dumb. I am literally on the side of the argument you are talking about and I am not going to say non-statements like that. Its gameplay and leveldesign only impacted Forces if anything, Gens and LW(Which I think are good to great games gameplay-wise) have nothing to do with Colors in that regard.
It's also not "bad because it is fake 3D", it just annoys me that even officially, it is sited as the game that first got 3D Sonic right, because...lol. If the only right way to make 3D Sonic is to make 2D Sonic with a few 3D moments, then we may as well have stuck to full 2D anyhow. I'd much rather not have 3D Sonic than to entertain the idea that peanutbutter gets better the fewer peanuts are in it.
@@lpfan4491 That's understandable. A lot of praise of the game does feel misplaced, but I still like Colors purely because it's an honest game. Like as much as I enjoyed the Adventure games and Generations, they definitely feel like they needed to add an extra playstyle because Sega/Sonic Team weren't confident in Sonic's sole gameplay. Colors just exudes confidence in itself, and you can tell from the moment they drop you into the first stage with no other cutscenes. I don't think the highs Colors have will beat the Adventure games, Unleashed, or Generations, but it definitely is more consistent in its quality than 75% of those games.
I actually like all 5 of SA2's Playstyles & most of its fans enjoy at least 2 of the Main 3 & the Chao. The hate of the different characters & different playstyles is nonsense that hurt the series for the past 15 years. Colors for Wii had awful level design (that wasn't a death pit? or the luck based lasers that crab shoots) was just Sonic, & had possibly the worst story in the series. The dishonest praise mentioned earlier that Colors got really hurt the series for the entire 2010s. Sonic Adventure got 3D Sonic right before 1998 ended almost 25 years ago yet some reviewers like to hate on it & Adventure 2 just because they could.
Anyone can publish hate for things, that doesn't mean its true. Could you imagine if some influential TH-camrs started crusading against Sonic Generations? Actually what if we did try that the same way the Adventure haters did a decade ago? Then opinion could be swayed & it would be history repeating itself all over with 1 of the most beloved 3D Games in the series randomly being hated just because a few guys didn't like the level selection or the playstyles. I'm sure kids will defend Sonic Forces in a few years as it got overhated for not being Sonic Generations 2 possibly like how the Unleashed Fanbase came to exist. When I was a kid we didn't hate Heroes for not being Sonic Adventure 3, even if we were disappointed by certain changes like removal of Chao Gardens.
@@WaterKirby1994 I find it ironic that you said that, "Anyone can publish hate for things, that doesn't mean it's true," right after saying that Colors Wii had both the worst level design and story in the franchise. Which is funny considering that the 2 mainline games after Generations, Lost World and Forces are mighty contenders for those spots.
Colors' story isn't my favorite, but the worst part is its small scale compared to the previous stories, which isn't even that bad because the game isn't trying to be a large-scale story. It's not like Lost World or Forces where they're trying to have big, serious moments while failing at it completely with tons of missed potential in their world-building and new characters.
And in terms of level design, Colors isn't the best at it, but I can at least tell that the wisps were made to add some level of depth to the levels and added replay value, and that they were completely original. Lost World is all over the place with the level design and I can remember only half of the stages being worthwhile, and Forces pretty much is on autopilot for 90% of the playthrough (the grunts don't even attack you, something every other 3D Sonic had).
amazing video man, keep it up!
It’s finally here! So exited to watch this!
Also colours bonus video next? Absolutely amazing! Always wanted to know about that game.
One more thing; I speedrun some sonic forces levels, and forces’ level design only really when trying to go as fast as possible (with the main example being spaceport, the main level I speedrun) Just thought you should know from the perspective of a speedrunner.
Oh you mentioned speedrunning, my fault for not watching further
Fr this time last thing: can’t wait for the video to be outdated in a couple months when superstars comes out
Generations Sonic is, in terms of speed, just Unleashed Sonic with max stats. He feels faster in Unleashed due to differences with the camera, zooming in/out more and more exaggerated FOV in general especially when boosting
Sorry for commenting on this a year later, but this is not actually the case. While I loathe to use mods to compare this, the Unleashed Project mod for Gens is almost 1 to 1 level design wise with Unleashed proper (genuinely the only difference is a shorter aero chaser sequence in Jungle Joyride Day.), so we can use it for comparison. Loading Windmill Isle in both Unleashed with a max stat Sonic and Gens, Unleashed is notably faster than Gens. If anything, the time to beat Windmill Isle Act 2 on Gens aligns with a level 1 Unleashed Sonic.
"Pretend Sonic 4 doesn't exist." Yep, sounds about right to me.
Just a quick heads up, since you're playing Sonic Origins for the classics, Tails is introduced in Sonic 2, but in the original he cannot fly, making him a reskin essentially. Even I don't mean for this to come off as rude, just thought I would notify you! Great video!
Yeah I completely forgot, a lot of people mentioned that haha
Thank you!
@@Cifesk Sorry about that! Should have know a lot of people would've already said that. My bad
2:00:45 It's actually because of some of the visual effects being toned down, from what I remember, internally, sonic's actually FASTER than unleashed in generations, but the visual effects and tighter drift don't sell that as well.
Sonic 3's split was not actually due to storage limitations at all, it was entirely because SEGA needed Sonic 3 out in some capacity that could be considered acceptable in time for a McDonalds collab
Having played Lost World time attack mode recently, while it can be argued that infinite spindash can substitute for boost, I’d still put this with the adventure formula. Getting S rank here felt more in line to Adventure 1 and Heroes. Frontiers feels like of merged of both adventure and boost
Pretty sure Sonic Team did *not* make Sonic R, not sure how they would have gotten experience making 3D enviroments from a game they didn't work on.
Pretty sure the developer of Sonic R also made Sonic 3D Blast\Sonic: Flicky's Island.
I think one of the developers has a TH-cam channel called "GameHut"? Should be the @GameHut TH-cam handle.
1:11:39 "lots of glitches" while you show footage of you clearly missing the rail on your own accord.
Ah yeah, I missed it on my own accord after hitting a spring that locks your controls while riding a rail that pushes you forwards automatically LMAOOOOOOO
Be serious
Great assessment. You should've covered Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Rush in some shape or form.
Iizuka is really a GOAT, bro designed a bunch of full length levels all by himself. Meanwhile Frontiers had 6 level designers and the level design turned out Shit for the most part.
you mean to tell me frontiers had 6 level designers and they could only come up with like 7 original levels?
@@sundaewashere Yup, you wanna know something even FUNNIER. 5 of them Were complete Newbies with only the Lead Level designer having previous experience with ONE Sonic game, that game being Sonic Forces.
The original levels were fine
Original levels in Frontiers have been quite good. But there are only few of them, majority is just copypaste from SA2, Unleashed and Generations.
Also, don't forget that level designers also worked on overworld, not just cyberspace.
@@Gnidel The Original levels were fine, the Best ones were way too short. Open Zone level design was shit but I guess that’s what happens when you have 6 people working on 5 Whole islands. The Recent Koco Challenges had the Best Platforming and Level Design in the Entire game.
If there is one thing that Forces did correctly, it's playing two characters at the same time. The swap mechanic worked pretty well during gameplay, with better level design and more different abilities the team levels could have been really good.
a hug from shoebill island!
I thought the non-beta/cut content videos gonna be boring and uninteresting, but this made me think to replay some games just to enjoy and understand things you talked about.
Idea for next video: Music retrospective? I know someone did it before but not so complex how you could.
I don't know who you are but we will be watching
What a great video and i respect you too acknowledge the flaws in sonic heroes i love that game too. Esprcially on super hard mode
Great video! Waiting for the open zone video and the colors video
17:38
I think it was primarily the McDonald’s deal that caused the game to be split in two.
Like I can see it happening in general with the size of the game, but I think we would’ve had more levels in 3 if it wasn’t for the deal.
1:05:21 You can really tell how good a usage of character switching is in a level by trying to beat it with only the speed character... sonic can beat every level except i believe it was mystic mansion and final fortress entirely by himself
I really like your videos. Keep up the good work.
This video is far too underrated
Nothing like watching a cifessk video at 1am 😫
This is my favorite Sonic channel. 🙂
"Is not Shadow The Hedgehog"
*I am All of Me starts playing*
Long time no see Cifesk
Fuck, maybe I actually am autistic if I'm more than happy to watch a 3 hour video on sonic the hedgehog level design. Also you're the MAN for putting this much time and effort into a video like this, gotta appreciate the grind.
Sonic Unleashed level design is PEAK becuase it does MORE with LESS,
it's level design has less paths than other games but those paths are very hidden, making those pathways satisfacting to reach
This was amazing worth the wait
Gotta mention the Sonic was always good series by pariah, hes super good
Why did it take so long for me to find this channel? Better late than never I guess
Quando vi no canto "proeza desbloqueada" e prestei atenção no sotaque percebi logo que devias ser português (se não fosse isso, nunca teria suspeitado). Adoro ver essays extremamente longos de Sonic, e ver de um português ainda torna a experiência mais incrível. O vídeo está espetacular, vou ver os outros conteúdos que fizeste também. Nunca pares
1:46:19 👏 amazing
51:33 The ports didn't help with this either, they made rails much more sensitive than on the Dreamcast
Also, Sonic Team didn't have any involvement (At least not directly) with either 3D Blast or R, those were made by Travelers Tales at a time where Sonic Team was working on other properties (Specifically Nights) and struggling to make their own 3D Sonic game
Well now I'm curious to see how a good Sonic Lost World would look like
I don't even like sonic and I've already watched this video halfway. I just like long videos idk. Good job dude.
I actually enjoy Iron Fortress. 👍
(BTW, I'm have 2 xbox accounts in the top 5 to 20 ranks on the level, which I believe are Ranks 9 and 16)
Post these in parts too so you get more chances in the algorithm!
Thank you for the suggestion but nah
Hate to be that guy, but SA2 didn’t look better because they were able to take full advantage of the hardware. Sonic Adventure was in development at the same time as the Dreamcast, so Sonic Team was actually able to make requests for hardware specs.
14:33
I think this was introduced in the Mobile version.
lets goooo!!
I disagree on cd part while it's true the game is supposed to be about exploration and not speed i still think it feels bad, the level design is odd and confusing at times, and while exploration is good it do feel like the levels play like a labyrinth at times which i don't think is really that good, if you're playing the game i normally i suppose is ok but if you're trying to say enjoy the time mechanic or find the generators it's painful.
The generators are generally hidden in very specific spots of the level and there is only 1 of them per level, this make it very painful to find generators since they're like finding a needle in the middle of the hay, to make matters worse some levels don't let you proceed backwards after a certain point, which is horrible if you're trying to get the generators, to make matters worse time travelling is a mess because it's literally about going fast to activate it (after using the signs of course) yet the level design is very platform based or not really straight, yes there is some levels that are easier to time travel (ex stardust speedway) but for the most part it's painful to time travel in the levels, in fact the devs knew about it, so they inserted certain "time machines" in the levels for easier travelling, like putting 2 springs next to each other, but is still decently painful.
The special stage is also very oof in terms of difficulty, it's very hard to control sonic there, and the ufo movements can sometimes make it messy to hit them.
If someone is reading this and dislike cd just like me or at least the level design i recommend playing the fangame sonic time twisted, it's like if cd and 3&k had a child, and a awesome child, they also made time travelling easier there by making so the moment sonic runs through a sign it's instantly a time travel, too that does mean levels have less signs and some of them are gave to you by rewarding you through certain paths.
I think you made valid points which I do agree with, though I disagree that the levels feel like a labyrinth, maybe because I've played the game a lot so I know the stages by heart at this point, but even then I don't think they're very hard to get the hang of, though definitely harder than the other classic games
I think part of the issue is that if u played CD through only the taxman release ur experience wit the Timetravel is worse cus for some reason the time taken to activate it is lengthened in that version & it's the 1 MOST ppl play
@@nightlydata2181 No i never touched it, i played mostly the sonic gems collection version.
@@Cifesk I played cd like 5 times as a child and 2 times as a adult, and i still can't get a hang on the level design lol.
Anyway if they fixed those issues and maybe inserted more generators in the level but only forced the player to destroy 1 of them, while still keeping a decent amount of exploration ala s3&k (like say whatever you want about s3&k not being about exploration, some of those giant rings are really well hidden you need to admit it) it would be a good game in my opinion.
Oh also i would love if the time twisted time travel system of just running through the sign and time travelling would be inserted, it would allow levels to keep their own designs but also not stopping the player from time travelling thanks to the wack level design or being forced to use those "time machines" i mentioned earlier.
And the special stage, i will be honest i wouldn't mind if it just got replaced lol.
Anyway if you feel like doing those changes would stop CD being CD that's completely fair, at least for me it would improve my own personal fun and encourage me to explore the levels more, but of course my fun is not everyone's fun.
the one thing i hate about the classic stuff is the slowly moving platforms you have to wait for
It's a huge shame people don't understand the greatness of the boost, Adventure and even the amazing Warehog formula when it was the best way to evolve the tedious boring and level design of the classics that for some reason people still enjoy. Don't really get how that's not fun for some, seems like nitpicking for the sake of delusional nostlagia to me. Great video btw :D
how do you casually make hour long videos in months and get no credit for that, actual goat
I've only played the classic sonic games, but I have the opposite opinion of this video. My problem with them is that the game's character and how he controls does not fit with the level design. He's fast, slippery, and yet the levels are designed with constant bumps that completely stop your character, or even worse, bounce him all the way back in the direction he just came from. Then you have some fairly precise platforming you have to do, but the character's speed/slipperiness is not conducive to that, the character controller is just not built for that, but it's constantly used for that. People argue, memorize the level layout, but why should I ever do that if I'm not a speedrunner? It should be fun from the very first go, I never had to memorize a mario level to be able to play through it with the exact same experience as intended. Sonic was Sega's attempt at making a mascot for their consoles in that era, and it shows as a corporate hackjob.
YES thank you, finally someone who doesnt just uncritically praise Classic sonic games lol
The whole memorizing the level arguement is always cheap I think because with every game you play better if u memorize the level layout, but it's even harder to do so with Sonic with all the different paths :(
If they ever remaster sonic unleashed I wonder if they'll decide bundle both HD and SD versions together for the definitive experience. Since the HD levels have drastically different layouts than the SD version.
I'm not saying it would have you play all HD and SD levels in one story. Maybe when you start a new game it'll give you the choice of which level versions you like to play on. It would prioritize which versions the game uses for the story and the levels of the other version you didnt choose will be put in its own menu as an option to play on your own time.
2:18:07 I mean... in sonic going downhill is good and going up hill slows you down, so...
Great video & breakdown. But just want to point out that the core members of Sonic Team relocated from Japan to San Fransisco during development of SA2. So SA1 & 2 were made by the same developers
I love this video. Such a long video covering everygame in such detail. Great job. Its clear youre a huge sonic fan and have really played all of them a lot. But have to disagree with SA2 being better. Nerfed spin dash, the paths are a lot more restricted, SA1 was already pretty linear but SA2 removes any chance of going off the beaten path and the level themes are a lot less interesting. I like SA2 dont get me wrong but SA1 Sonic's levels are far superior for me. But i agree lineraity is never a bad thing when done well. SA2 levels are fun and the boost levels are almost entirely linear with chances here and there for reflexes based shortcuts and i love those too
Thank you! Though I don't think I have ever stated that I think SA2's level design is better than SA1's. I mean, from an objective point of view it's definitely more refined and fleshed out, but personally I prefer SA1's a lot more
@@Cifesk I guess you didnt explicitly say that. Was hard to get a read as you were positive on both lol. SA2 is good i just feel its a series of soft QTEs. Like no freedom run down a straight line press button here for light dash push button here to somersault over. Like it doesnt really add any, theres barely any platforming in SA2 imo. Which is fine. Still fun. But SA1 def had more freedom and outside of maybe Frontiers i still think SA1 still has the best 3d sonic levels to this day. The boost games have great level design too but its a whole different animal of level design to compare. Also side note im a weirdo and really like Lost World. It might not be a good "Sonic" game or whatever that means but i admire what sonic team tried to do theres a lot of variety in the levels and i think there are more hits then misses by a wide margain
I liked Forces level design a lot but like the boost formula as a whole, I think they need less automation and less stiff characters.