Big Atmospheric WWII Milsim Bomber Escort Mission Over France | DCS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
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0:00 Briefing
5:34 Mission
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Not a single takeoff crash!.... *and the crowd goes wild*
Genuinely read this title as 'Will's Muslim Bomber Escort Mission' and my immediately started wondering who Will is and which Islamic governments he might be getting strategic bombers from. 🤔
😂
Hahah 😂👍
Bomber doesn't mean aircraft in that case....just a guy with a bomb who wants to take a bunch of people with him
@@EldritchPursuit they could be skydiving....
@@Foobitsif the planes name is "Saud Off" youre in trouble
There is something special with briefings given by Charlie. He sounds so professional doing it. Nothing is misunderstood, very clear information and makes the whole thing sound so much better and real. He's even better as ATC I've heard him do.
Nice work.
5:15 - I've just read the thing that says NO MUSTANGS but it's a bit late now.
?????
Something was clearly misunderstood and it completely ruined the whole show!
CAP = CHEATING & LIAR.... 2 clicks and you can change to a Spitfire. Gets a 👎👎
Instructions said: don't take a Mustang. What did you take? A Mustang.
You assume we read the briefings :)
because CAP is a LIAR and a CHEAT!!!
Ruined the whole video, and wasted the valued viewers time!
2 clicks and you change to a Spitfire... I HATE LIARS!!!
@@SuperAd1980 wow....a little over the top here? i mean...its HIS group. if he wants to change the rules, then the rules are changed
Nobody tells Super Cap what to fly! Haha.
In a first instance I thought the same but If we become picky about something, we become involved in everything so..... the K-4 weren't there either, right?
The Americans did daylight bombing because they believed wholeheartedly (and mostly incorrectly) that they could be be more accurate. IIRC it was a doctrine that had its roots all the way back to WW1 that a group of heavy bombers could defend itself unescorted all the way to target, and no one really questioned it. Experience put that to bed and is why the 8th Air Force had more casualties than the entire US Marine Corps. On the upside it finally spurred the development of the long range escort fighters that helped beat the Luftwaffe into submission.
Thanks
doctrine dominated both RAF and USAAF thinking, Harris was convinced that you could break morale through bombing just as much as the yanks were certain they could put a bomb in a barrel. The devestation they wrought did cost the Germans quite a lot but at a considerable cost. Though with nukes I guess Harris won in the end.
Also the british Lancs had a homing radio system to keep heading to help guide them to the target.Grandfather got dishonorably discharged from Air force after a bad cumulo granite incident left him grounded. So had the latest in radio and navigational training. K.o'd an officer so he could join the army to see active service.Started on latrine duty for his effort luckiest break of the war met Paddy mad irishman who'd turn up all over the place in the strangest of circumstances over the course of the war. So some brass had a new order of tanks and were talking at the head and paddy volunteered them, So grandfather become a tank commander Trainer before shipping out having only driven 200 metres and curved the corner off of a building first corner not realising tanks pivot steer :) .
Uh…it didn’t look like the escorts did too well this time. 😄. Of course, I could have done no better. 😄. It looked really difficult just to spot the fighters! Needed an AWACs. 😁
There was also some discussion and negotiation with the RAF Bomber Command.
The RAF had tried small scale daylight bombing before America entered the war. These unescorted missions went as poorly as the Americans effort, so they were happy to stick to nighttime bombing.
The Americans believed their heavier armed and armoured bombers, coupled with the Norden Bombsight, would be the game changer.
Sadly strategic bombing was almost always a slaughter until high altitude planes like the B-29 were developed.
However, like you said, the bombing spurred the development of long range escorts; and the nighttime RAF bombing led to increased nighttime radio guidance from spotter planes, along with anti-radar chaff development.
You can always tell who the Jet pilots are when they pull up too sharply on take off.
I love these old warbirds. I finally got to take a tour of a B-17 back in 2014. What shocked me was just how small the plane really is.
Same with the Lancaster
It was only a couple of meters longer than F-15 and with normal payload it carried less bombs than F-15E on average sortie. Though it's max payload was a bit higher than F-15's but it basically never carried that much under any circumstances because it greatly limited it's range.
Ditto, moving around in the fuselage was pretty tight. And I'm a skinny fella...
the B-29 is even more deceptively small inside. It seems like such a huge plane on tv or pictures.
Got to take a flight in a B17 and will never forget it. Amazing to walk around during flight and crawl under the pilot to the nose. It’s a tight squeeze for sure.
One thing I will note, is that the Bombers didn't see to provide a whole lot of defensive fire during the mission. Only on a few A/C did the guns fire at the incoming German fighters.
Yep no team work or tactics, they just there own thing.
Yeah, were they AI-controlled? Because they (B-17s?) weren't shooting back at all, it looked like.
I believe the B-17s are AI-only. You can’t pilot them and if they could be multi-crewed, it would take 6 players at the guns, at least one pilot and one bombardier/navigator. So 8 players in each B-17! What was it, 48 B-17s? 384 players! 😂. It would have to be a mix of a couple multi-crewed and 46 AI.
I suspect what happens is you have 6 gun positions on each of 48 B-17s (4 of those are twin 50s) and the server can’t handle aiming and firing 288+ guns and the resulting thousands of tracers. But not all would fire at once, but say at least 8-18 at each fighter pass. Plus all of the other activity and flak. I don’t see how a server could keep up. And so I suspect much of the B-17’s defensive fire just gets dropped out due to other higher processing priorities.
Maybe try a formation of 12 B-17s. And an escort of 12 of all one kind of fighter…maybe all P-51s to start with. And just 4-6 intercepting Bf-109s. Add a lot of flak guns. Initially fighters and then flak over the target area. That’s it.
Figure out how to do that operation. How do you defend against those 109s? The objective is not getting kills, but keeping the bombers from getting shot up and getting home to a successful landing so there’s still aircraft left for subsequent missions.
Don’t go off chasing the 109s. Just try to foil the attacks. Then they come around and try again. More action with fewer aircraft. Maybe the server can handle that.
After some good practice and competence, then move up to larger formations.
Just my thoughts. 😉
I agree
I'm not talking about the B-17 I'm talking about the humans@@PapagenoX09
Detailed fidelity is better but still doesn't compare to the later versions of the 1990's MicroProse 'B-17 Flying Fortress' (1992) and 'The Mighty 8th', those 'AI's' and scripts were amazing.
The latter versions with reasonable 3D were amazing recreations of the Bomber day time Air War.
Every Bomber and fighter acted just like one would imagine. Every damaged bomber was different, some exploded, some cartwheeled down, some fell back and out of formation. You could see chunks fly off aircraft. Escort and bomber flew formations and tightened up when necessary. Interceptors flew head on, high down, across the formation, boom and zoom and then up from below.
Most noticeably compared to DCS every Bomber fought back and you saw realistic levels of fighter loses. DCS damaged B17s all look like they suffered the same few exact damaged and fires animations versions. Where were the chutes?
I remember the long long hours of nursing a wounded B17 back, hoping to save the crew to fight again, hoping to make it down safely.
They also did missions you could fly as escorts, those were really good too.
It was so epic, the only disappointment was the ground detail even for then it was ... bad.
Micropose are re-making the game currently so excited hope it matches my memory and expectation.
The same game with DCS levels of graphics would be brilliant.
This reminded me that it was not unknown for German and Allied bomber formations to encounter each other during WWII. How about trying that for a mission - 2 large bomber formations facing each other with ‘the boys’ providing some limited escorts in both sides.
Cap - great mission! More of these please. Love it when the Grim Reapers have PvP within the framework of larger objectives. That way we get to see all the human skill of trying to outfly and outthink each other, but it's not Air Quake. Great camerawork - those 88s opening up, and the aerial view of the bombs hitting the target... wow.
One suggestion: Could you rerun this mission, but limit it to just Spitfires and Thunderbolts for the Allies? That would be the 1943 scenario, and we rarely get to see what it was like to have Spits and Jugs vs 109s (w/o MW) and Antons. Also, Jugs should fly the earlier models without the K-14 gunsight and not use water injection, if possible. That would be different enough to make it really interesting to see a rematch.
If there was ever a thing red tails should’ve taught you it’s never leave the bombers mans dives 5,000 ft chasing a decoy and wonders why he can’t catch up to the 109 tagging the bombers💀
The only thing the film ‘Red tails’ taught me was with enough belief one can re-write history and depict physically impossible manoeuvres being pulled off
@@artnull13To be fair escorts were told to allways be with their flight and not chase personal glory in dogfights. They were there to protect. The same was for the Germans, they were told to attack with as much force as possible on the bombers and ignore the escorts.
@@artnull13 and that you can survive multiple mk 108 rounds to the chest!
@@mikkel066hother way around for the Americans once Doolittle comes in, the fighters went ahead as the offensive arm rather than close escort - the bombers were mainly there as bait to force the Luftwaffe to come up, so the fighters could go off and destroy them - the aim was air supremacy for Overlord, which they achieved.
@@vaudevillian7exactly. The very same tactic that Galland had called for in the Battle of Britain which may have drastically changed that battle had high command not ordered them to stay with the bombers, negating the primary advantage of a fighter which is speed. Read Gallands books and this becomes very clear, when the US fighters started pursuing and leaving the bombers it was his worst fear realized
coming back to all the comments regarding B17s not defending. As per my Track File the lead B17s were set to "Ace" and all the other set to "Veterans" and the formation is set to "B* Element Height Separation".
The Formation is defending itself. Have a closer look to some 109s getting shredded.
The trick is to come in fast and at an angle creating aiming issues for the gunners. My first encounter at 26:24 shows a head on with slight offset to one side. There is literally just half a second to aim and get rounds on target.
For the following encounters at 27:03 I choose hight closure speeds and or tricky angles from behind.
I grand you, that closing in from 6 o'clock with slow closure speeds you will get smacked withing seconds. You will probably not even get rounds on your target before falling apart.
Every time I watch your WW2 videos, I really wish DCS would come out with an F-4U Corsair in game. That is my favorite craft of that era
F4U-1D is in development. Hopefully out this year…but I said that last year and maybe the year before. 😕
When it does come out, he needs to do a series of Blacksheep Squadron reenactments. 😀. Cappy Boyington and his flying misfits. I’d join. 😄. In fact, could start with P-47s right now. 😄
F6F Hellcat is in the pipeline too, for maybe next year??
Always remember Cap, when bailing out low, tuck and roll! Great fun everyone, thanks!!!❤😊
You got distracted and forgot to protect the bombers 😂
That rolling scissor chase between the Spit and FW was cool. I found I had held my breath until I saw its gear drop. 😂
Not only is it "just" a sim, I'm not even in it.
Hey Cap, great mission…I always love watching these! One thing I have set up on my joystick is toggle switches that control my oil and water radiator cooling control switches. My switches switch the p-51 switches between “automatic” and “open”. When my engine temp shows the upper end of green, I throw the switches to “open” and the engine immediately cools down to the lowest end of green in 5-10 seconds. Then I throw them back to “automatic” and then back to “open” when needed. This can be done in max continuous, but especially during military power to keep your engine within the green for the short spurts that this is used. Just FYI in case it helps!
The Bf-109 G10 could easily outperform the Mustang. Watching this video, reminds me of the stories, the grandfather of my ex gf yrs ago told me. He flew from the Western campaign till the end of WWII for the Luftwaffe. He told me stories how it was fighting over the skies of Germany. He'd shot down several B-17's and B-24's. And some fighters. He was writing his memoirs, but could never finish it, because sadly he passed away a few years ago. I don't have contact with that family anymore, but I love to know if they still have his memoirs and if they're doing nothing with them, if I may have them. Doubt it though, they might keep it in their family. But it has been a huge honor knowing this awesome person!
Evrything fantastic. Allow me some advice: don't chase an enemy who has already been effectively engaged by one of your companions. Don't follow an enemy you've already damaged at low altitude.
Had a great mission, even enjoyed flying the Jug instead of my beloved Spit. 😎
Turned the video off as soon as he cut off the spitfire on the 190. Says no one is helping the bombers, goes after the 190 thats already being chased and forced low. Cant make it up
I'm guessing DCS tones down the defensive fire from the B-17's for performance reasons or something? Every time I see a German fighter make a run on a group of like, 6 to 8 bombers, there will be maybe, one MG on ONE plane that will fire during the entire sequence.
They are all set to free fire but yes they rarely fire in game.
I was thinking the same thing. Too bad the game seems to have this glitch.
C'mon DCS even European Air War back in the 90's had the B-17's firing at the bandits. Otherwise, everything else rocks from a viewers perspective.
Looking at real B-17 combat footage here on TH-cam, that seems pretty accurate. You rarely see gunfire coming from the bombers. I could think of different reasons for that:
- Lack of ammo: Contrary to popular belief (and depictions in movies and games), B-17 gunners had to fire very short bursts to conserve ammo - there were only 400 rounds per gun in a top turret, for example. At up to 14 rounds per second, that's just about 29 seconds of continous gunfire... for an entire mission.
- Target identification: They could only fire once they could definitely tell attacking fighters from escorts, which must have been hard even at medium ranges.
- Limited field of fire: They could not fire into the general direction of another bomber, and these formations were pretty tight.
- Situational awareness: Visibility to the sides was poor in most of the turrets, making it hard to spot targets in the first place.
This is one of the best videos you've done. Charlie is top notch. I could watch these sorts of missions all day.
Парни, вы просто красавцы.
Постоянно ваши стримы смотрю. Я в основном летаю на Спитфайре. И учусь по вашим видео👍
COOL Beans guys! Looks like a good Mission! Thank You Team GR! I also wanted to say that I have been Accepted by the 37th Marine Brigade for the UAF! I won't be leaving for a bit though, probably about a month, US Passports are way behind I guess even when you pay extra to get it faster. Still 4-6 Weeks! Wow! I guess without its 2-4 Months. That is crazy long, my last one I got years ago only took like 2-3 weeks tops. But I figured I would share that with Y'all! Little Nerve Racking to say the least... OK later guys, Thanks again CAP & TEAM!
I have around 12 hours flight time in the SU25 and I will have me a HOTAS stick in two days. But my goodness the keyboard combinations that you have to use to fly keyboard and mouse is something else. It will take me a 100 hours to remember everything just to get the weapon combination buttons down. I have run the training for the fighter at least twice a day. A lot of work but everybit worth it. I have joined a couple of the multiplayer servers just to see how my PC would handle it and it ran great. Thanks for the videos I just wish I would have started playing a year ago when I watched the first Grim Reaper upload. Thanks again!
Another great mission from Cap and the boys. MVP to High I reckon; first bandit sighting, assisting with the formation and even a couple splashes. Jolly good show !
well.. that was a prime example of how NOT to escort bombers.
Also... why in the world were the B17's gunners not active? That many bombers with that few fighters, the sky would have been filled with 50 cals.
Proper Charlie's missions are always amazing. Very timely on the cusp of Masters of the Air!
"everyone likes big jugs" that's a t shirt right there captain I'll take a size fat XXL for the idea thanks
All the jugs are size D. 😉. That’s good enough for me! 😄
That was amazing! Great to see a full 'lifelike' mission like this. Well worth the time, caught myself 'willing the plane around' several times.
Great video CAP thoroughly enjoyed it. Just started in DCS wwii hope I get to play some of these one day. Cheers.
Great fun video folks. A couple of points worth knowing about - from Jan 1944 the 8th's fighters were freed up by Doolittle to go after the ene,y fighters, whereas the Luftwaffe was trying to take out the bombers. Doolittle and his fighter commander, Anderson, worked closely with RAF Y-Service to get fixes on the Luftwaffe bases being scrambled and thier rendevous points, so the Mustangs would fly in front and bounce the enemy before the bombers were anywhere near. I'm afraid to say that the loss rates you guys suffered in your mission were...a bit too high - they would aim for less then 4.5% to give crews some chance of surviving their tour of 25 and then 30 missions (and 35 from mid 44). The training of the Allied fighter pilots was so much better than the Luftwaffe by mid 1944, due to more fuel, time, pilots and planes, and by the time of D-Day the Luftwaffe fighters were basically gone from outside of Germany itself. Lastly on the flak, the 88mm would fire in boxes, not try and track individual bombers, thus forcing the bombers to fly through a concentrated area of flak which...wasn't much fun for the bombers.
Love these WW2 missions! Great stuff, some fantastic flying too!
My question is why were the B-17's not firing their own defensive guns?
I was wondering the same
I wonder if the AI is capable of it. It's one thing for AI to control a plane, but then adding several AI gun positions for each plane greatly increases the load.
@@TheStormpilgrim 1990's AI could do it, watch videos of B17 And The Mighty 8th. I played it and personally it still hasn't been beaten for cinematic dog fights, Amazing AI performing historical attack runs and interceptions, atmosphere, damage effects .. etc
Came here wondering the same thing
39:00
"Gonna hit the brakes. He'll fly right by"
Love the commentary Cap! Great mission y'all!
apart from the bit when CAP and 1/2 the team CHEATED - thats right - CHEATED at the beginning by using banned aircraft and banned weapons.
Ruined the whole thing, and wasted the valued viewers time... I HATE LAIRS!!!
This looks insanely fun! Awesome formation work and communication between pilots. So cool to see the big formation of bombers all together. Must have been quite a spectacle in real life..
This looks amazing, very well done!
🍻
This was a good one. Very cinematic when you're watching on a big-ass TV.
I got my SRS working again I did a thang CAP!!! LOL :)
19:30 Because the British literally told us to. The US doctrine employed strategic bombing of factories and railroads, whereas the British were more focused on bombing cities to break morale, so they wanted to take night bombing because accuracy was less of a factor in carpet bombing.
Nothing quite as sexy as some Jugs, Mustangs, and Spitfires flying around together. Great work as always gentlemen!
The reason the US preferred daylight bombing raids was it increased the accuracy and, therefore the effectiveness of the bombing raids.
My BAD!!!!!!LOL Sm 1 was BANGING ON MY DOOR!!! She locked herself out!! LMFAO!! ;)
My grandfather was a B-24 pilot in WWII. They suffered more casualties per 1000 combatants during WWII. They had a calculated casualty rate of 117%. Look up the 492nd Bomb Group. Amazing stuff.
Hell, am I gonna have to get DCS now? Way too much fun. Good flying y'all
The Americans -- by edict, wanted daylight PRECISION bombing. The Brits wanted NIGHT 'total carpet' bombing. In either case, it did NOT work out for either allied side. That was why they had to 'revisit' target sights so many times -- a reason,, that casualties in the 8th were so high!
I love the names of the flights. It's a nice detail. I actually knew Robert Morgan. He was a very nice fellow.
@43:25 60% survival isn't great numbers for a raid that had Spitfire and Mustang support only 20 miles inside France. The real bomber crews did much better but the deeper they went the worse it got then that special mission number became a dream. But 60% with fighter support within 20 miles of the channel, I'd call that a fail.
Amazing content as always my friend o7
You know I love how cap is the most professional sims pilot .
Absolutely Awesome and brilliant! 👏 Seriously a fantastic reminder of the power house production and military prowess of Allied nations in the last World War. Thank you for sharing and excellent communication and formation
I miss that at IL-2 . some great Bomber formations and so on.....
For WW2 raids have they modeled the lancaster? If not you guys need to see if someone would work on it like 2-3 times the bomb weight than a b17
no Lancaster in DCS sadly, there is a mod in the works though
well done! I love WWII vids
37:31 congrats on making it out 💕
Well done GR :)
BEAUTIFUL SORTIE GENTLMEN! In the early days of the bombing campaign of France many American and british Fighter pilots left the bomber formation for a single kill to paint on there plane. many bombers were still lost because of this
saw that here too
Oh dear... going down in flames. Bailing out.
Noice VID CAP&GR!!
I love these wwii episodes. Thank you
Jolly good show, old bean.
Of course, this is a _ME_ problem, but the negative side to watching these GR videos is that I always want to switch and use the aircraft they are flying with! I don't really learn any particular aircraft as well as I should. Okay, focus, Robert...FOCUS.
Great video. Dunno how much practice it takes to fly in formation like that.
Think you went to fast in the dive CAP Russian yaks had a similar problem where if you dive to fast the elevator falls off to which you have a few moments to think about your life choice before you meet the ground.
One of the biggest strats for the germans during ww2 was you would have a formation come from the side to which the fighters would get distracted by then a smaller force would come from the vulnerable 12oclock high and just smash through the bombers.
Yeh I just had to chase that guy didn't I???...
Nice, Spitfires from polish 303 and 316 squadrons!
Supercool mission, loved that, watching Masters of the Air right now, so good.
Thank you masters of the air for helping me find this channel
When he asked why the americans did daylight bombing. One reason I think that the b-17 had more defensive guns The lanc's had less firing arcs and .303's instead of .50's. Plus it was lots of planes and lots of people. All the different bomber models most of them had issues they were all probably too slow. Some models like halifax's and I think like b-24's they would have liked them to be able to do their bomb runs a few thousand feet higher but they got the job done.
You guys are always welcome at Manston anytime 👍
Were the bombers not firing back? I get it, you want to Hold the enemy fighters for the escorts, but your losses would have been a lot less had there been cover fire from the combat box.
Wonderfully well!!
so cool
stop making me want to get new modules
Cap....if you manually open the coolant and oil radiators on the P51, you can fly at MAX settings, manifold and RPM, for an extended period of time...including climbing. You would be surprised at how long you can fly like that.
thx
Awesome, would also like Korean - Vietnam era battles x)
I too watched the first two episodes of Masters of the Air this weekend
They got stuck with no escorts because the brass refused to let them run drop tanks they just wound up ignoring the brass in the end and using the british paper ones.
HAI with the situational awareness position coming in solid.
As soon as the prize for landing first was offered I'd have been like... "so friendly fire is allowed? ok"
very nice content thanks, but Simba's take off at 9:11was very strange☠️
This is awesome!
This is breathtaking.
Regarding Cap's surprised BDA: even a blind hog finds an acorn from time to time.
Old school GR! :)
this takes me back to swotl, secret weapons of the Luftwaffe, a game i believe on one floppy(1.44mb) or was it one cd-rom???
am i getting old?😉😅🤣
I remember Secret Weapons over Normandy, which was PS2 era, I think?
no, playstation wasnt invented yet, played on a dos system, 486, 50Mhz, 16 bit sound-card@@mikeymike1792
I wish warthunder had some community missions like this that are kind of a mix between air rb and sim, would be super fun, and still pretty accessible to people
I don’t know what game this is but wow it’s like a historical video game nerds’s dream come true. Very cool.
When fighter tactics were changed and the fighters given free rein to go after the enemy fighters instead of being tied to close bomber support, the Allies finally gained air superiority. Regardless of what role they played, I think we all understand they made terrible sacrifices, performed incredible deeds and accomplished their mission. Honor to their memory.
The manifold pressure gauge in American fighters measures in inches of mercury, not PSI
Hmmm... I wonder how well could modern fighters fare at escorting a WW2 bomb formation?
Come in Charlie - ee zem zur - are you reading me? bandits on my rear - assist! assist!
Awesome !
the Americans argued that night time bombing was ineffective due to not being able to see the targets, yes it increased risk but they also increased accuracy, it was the trade off that the Americans made, and by having the RAF bombing at night and the USAF bombing during the day, the people on the ground were always wondering if they might be next, and the German fighters got very little rest cause they had to scramble to intercept day and night
No way you just did all that flying just to break your elevator LOL
Holy crap! That is about as real as you could get to what really went one over Germany ....and I'm only to the part where the bombers have just started to receive flak.
You guys should join 4YA Project Overlords 1 life WW2 escort missions sometime. (PVP) You will love it.
thx
watching you guys play makes me watn to play this game
Why aren't the B-17s defensive weapons working???