Privateer Press really needs to do this for Warmachine. Create a less competitive, fast version of the game that's designed to bring lots of models and lots of fun. It would breathe a lot of life back into the game =)
In the Chicago meta we occasionally have events called Sunday Fundays where we frequently used home brewed rules and scenarios for massive team battles. However, streamlined rules for mass activation would go a long way toward increasing interest
I've been thinking that - especially if you are big on aesthetics, it's a nice relief to know that how you've modelled your infantry basically doesn't matter and I don't have to work out the points and roll seperately for every two guys in a squad.
@@Cirac1 honestly this is how regular 40k should be. Age of Sigmar actually got this right: have a base line of troops, then choose more specialized options with a normalized stat list and niche to build around them.
I used to play 40K 2nd edition a lot but seriously disliked 3rd so stopped playing. Never stopped collecting though. 8th edition seemed at first to be a good rework but now has a similar rules bloat that 7th was heavily criticised for. So rather than getting into 8th ed I'm wondering if Apocalypse is more suitable just because its a simpler system.
@@urdaanglospey6666 the only thing you might not like is there are no baneblades coming... there ARE 2 shadowswords, along with 13 knights (divied up on each side)
Moving back to 12 siders I think you mean. 2nd Edition 40k was full of D4, D8, D10, D12 and D20. It took absolutely forever but it was also amazing to play.
Yes, at that time I built my 100 figure Imperial Guard unit. Which cost $100.00. Five boxes of 20 figures each; miss those days. But, I enjoyed the freedom of developing my unit. Plus, I created my own chapter back then, which I still use now. Hurrah for the Irish Fist.
Had my last apoc game about a month ago. 10 players, roughly 20,000 points on the table, before you add in the Warlord that was used. We ended it at the end of turn 3 after about 10 hours. I think the reason it went so quickly, was because 3 of the players on my team, myself included, brought guard. And I hade a full tank company. We just made a firing line and DECIMATED the other team. The warlord was killed in a turn and a half. It was fun. 10/10 will do more full apoc games.
I love guard at apoc sizes. You put the troops back in the box and take a tank for each soldier you would have had in a normal sized game. Fun times. We had a yearly game event that went on, it was 12 players per side, 5000pts each, 2 day event. Utter chaos, so much fun! It was quite the ordeal (time wise especially) [and more so when players could freely spread their forces out across 12 tables] it would be much much much simpler with the new rules. Could easily go to higher power level now and play faster. The fact you keep detachments within a command radius would localize the play for smaller activations, meaning you don't have to yell across the tables to get the attention of the person you want to fire at lol Lastly, I'm gonna be "that guy" - decimated means you killed a 10% of their force. Everyone seems to get that wrong now a days :P - annihilated, demolished, abolished or obliterated would work much better
I think you're missing the positive sides of the ruleset using an abstract system. You can easily run full scale apoc games with fewer miniatures than a 2k 40K army. Obviously you wouldn't be getting quite as grand a spectacle, but the point stands. Also my hope is to play at the 75-100 powerppoint level (about 1.8-2k in 40K terms) and just have a more enjoyable ruleset. Good video, of course :)
I'm actually liking a bunch of the rules choices enough, that I don't think I need to play 40k's normal rules (maybe for 750-1500pts ranges) Alternating activation, damage being calculated at the end of a turn, psychic powers not needing a dice roll, power level only, simplified (and free) unit rules, the d12-d6 system (is really quite elegant)
I was seriously thinking the same thing after I looked at the rules. Playing games that are roughly regular sized games but just using the simplified Apocalypse rules in order to just make games go more quickly.
@@jovannibaeza191 well based on my understanding of apocalypse you take turns moving detachments. But in small game of 40k a brigade is often the entire army. So you'd lose the enjoyment of that ruleset. You'd have one person move their brigade, is whole army and the other guy move his detachments one after the other since the brigade guy has no more detachments to move. Do you get what I mean? That and the smaller detachments are fluff engines of joy. Its a shame they aren't worth more cp. Frankly the brigade should be worth a lower amount of cp and the small groups worth a lot because you're doing something fluffy.
I'd like to see an experiment where Apocalypse is played at 125ish Power Level. If it works, it could be considered simply a more streamlined variant ruleset for regular 40k...
Thank's for the vids Atom. We use to play Warhammer ancients and used to play huge games which was fine. However I pushed that we do a progressive campaign with the starting army size as 1000pts and each game won gave the victor +50pts to their army total. However ths games were much faster as you may only have 6 units or so. Even as the points crept up the army units numbers gradually grew but we still had relatively quick games. As a result we could have 2, maybe even 3 games in one session and it helped when mixed with the progressive campaign to create an enjoyable gaming experience. If you've ever played Risk: Legacy compared to traditional Risk you'll really understand what I mean. We went totally off the massive game on a massive day idea for the reasons as you say. 12 hours and you're only part way through is just a slog on average. We applied this to our 40k games too and other systems and it really worked for us. I used to work for workshop in one of their stores (I was the painter guy) and they had a 'massive game's day' and had a daft amount of points. It was literally edge to edge tanks and about 2 or 3 rows deep. It was just rolling dice. No to littlw moving of units, no combined effects of units, no strategy, just rolling dice. Fine if that's the way you go but we found smaller games that meant those precious few units are relatively more valuable and there's the space on the table to really try to go for objectives or whatever. Each game style has it's fun and merits though, just giving the benefit of my experience 👍🏻
I think the majority of the older fans i know see apoc as a social event just as, if not more than a gaming event, hence why they found the appeal of the long games
I do wonder just how many games of Apocalypse get played every year to warrant the need for this. It feels like a level of models that happens as an annual celebration at a store or gaming club or a birthday game. I wonder if the change in the rules which makes it less similar to 40K will be a barrier rather than an attraction. Will watch this with interest to see what people think once it’s released.
Yeh, seems to me that people play apocalypse games BECAUSE they are long and dragged out. A rules system that makes it quicker and easier to play sounds great, but do the people who play apocalypse want it?
AJ Ratcliffe - this is exactly my thought. I don’t play Apocalypse so can only give an opinion from seeing others do it but it’s almost like that’s the attraction. The long all day game.
@@AJratcliffe i have big models. i want to use big models. i have many models. i want to use many models. well other than that very simplified way of saying it i don't have 2 days to play apocalypse as much as i have a want to play with all my stuff
Effectively, if you still want an all-day game with a bunch of friends, this ruleset just lets you play a larger game, with less book keeping and more time interacting with the game [alternating activations] (the old system, we literally had half the opposition team outside having a smoke, while the other team moved and such. It was also always a case of the team that won the 1st turn roll off, won (not that that's a reason you play apoc, but having your super-heavies shot to death before you can use them sucked a fair bit)
@@Son0fAggression Plenty of board games on the market right now at or over $100.00. Usually just cards and tokens. Sometimes very cheap monocolor plastic figures.
@@GTChade you're kidding right? Those board games have tons of minis included and you can well... actually play them without having to spend 200 more bucks. This is like separating a very small but still relevant part of a single game and selling it for the same price of the game
They clearly took some ideas from different editions of Epic, which were some of the best systems GW has ever come up with. So much so that the new Apocalypse works beautifully with old Epic models if you happen to have any lying around...
I'm excited about this almost to the point of indecency! Pre-ordered it, natch. Myself and some friends have tried playing great big games, multiple players, pooling armies etc. but good grief, it's cumbersome. Plus, of course, we have lives! Been feverishly painting to put in a good showing for some truly spectacular-looking games with little dudes all over the place.
I still have not played for 20 years, but have started painting my unfinished models this year. I had a 10,000 point Eldar army for second edition, and most games I played were 5,000 points. Not sure how many points my army will be in 8th. Games normally took at least 5 hours.
I just started the Patreon support last month and I would urge any of you longtime viewers to do the same. I finally pulled the trigger after thinking about how much I pay for Netflix and Prime and yet how much more value I get out of TM and a few other TH-camrs. TH-cam and podcasts have become the few content/shows I look forward to and get excited about. If you feel the same way, I would urge you to do the same so we can keep the content going and vote with our dollars. Rather this than big network trash.
I played a ten a side game at my local shop once. It took us an hour and a half to get through six rounds because we all trusted each other not to cheat and a whole side went at once and the only person who had to pay attention to what you were doing was the one you were attacking. And that was the normal 40k rules.
Kind of sounds like what battletech/battlespace did a decade or so ago. Lumping damage and heat into clusters, fighter squads instead of individuals, etc.
Thanks for the review Atom. From this I can make an informed decision on this rule set and wether or not I'm interested. I watched one of GW'S videos on "Apocalypse", demonstrating the rule set and was immediately struck by similarities to " Epic 40000: Armageddon" which reminds me I still have a pile of epic stuff to paint! "Apocolypse" Looks fun but seems better suited to a group of players who have massive collections and play fairly regularly.
40k apoc is a dry run for 9th ed especially if rumors are if the various phases are u move i move then we shoot together and models/wounds are taken of after both shooting has been resolved
@@Tomekkthegreat i looked at the rules and that dos not seem true. thunder hammers get x2 attacks on a 6+ 6+ bolt rifles are a rapid fire 5+ 8+ and plasma cannon is supercharged 7+ 7+ but hellblaster squads use plasma incinerators rapid fire and supercharge on a 5+ 6+ and the only "plasma gun" i could find was on the rhino primaris
Tomekk the part you are missing is that the stats for the intercessior bolt rifle is for the whole squad of 5 models shooting. So in that case they are better than a single plasma gun in 40k right now as well.
It does seem like a pre alpha test. But I'm okay with that. They've got some good ideas. Some that need improvement, but also some great ones, for sure
I certainly hope so. IGOYGO eventually destroyed my interest in 40K. Kill Team brought me back to GW. I’d be back to 40K immediately if the nigh interminable turn “stall” was eliminated with a more alternate activation-style mode.
Why should you not use this ruleset for smaller games? It's just a different game with another philosphy behind it: less detailed, more streamlined, and more elegant to be honest.
because it's made for spectacle; if you were using this at a much smaller scale games would take a significantly smaller amount of time, and be significantly less interesting because of it due to a removal of a lot of the complexity and strategy of regular 40k
Thank's for the vids Atom. We use to play Warhammer ancients and used to play huge games which was fine. However I pushed that we do a progressive campaign with the starting army size as 1000pts and each game won gave the victor +50pts to their army total. However ths games were much faster as you may only have 6 units or so. Even as the points crept up the army units numbers gradually grew but we still had relatively quick games. As a result we could have 2, maybe even 3 games in one session and it helped when mixed with the progressive campaign. We went totally off the massive game on a massive day idea for the reasons as you say. 12 hours and you're only part way through is just a slog on average. I used to work for workshop in one of their stores (I was the painter guy) and they had a 'massive game's day' and had a daft amount of points. It was literally edge to edge tanks and about 2 or 3 rows deep. It was just rolling dice. No to littlw moving of units, no combined effects of units, no strategy, just rolling dice. Fine if that's the way you go but we found smaller games that meant those precious few units are relatively more valuable and there's the space on the table to really try to go for objectives or whatever. Each game style has it's fun and merits though, just giving the benefit of my experience 👍🏻
I seriously love your vids man ive just started to get into the tabletop of 40k, and your vids are all super helpful. probably gonna stick with trying to build up some kill teams in different factions first cause that seems easier with cousins, but this video gets me hypeed for apoklypse and makes me not worry about buying to many lol. more into the painting aspect of it so I was worried about not having anything to do with my extra kill teams if I like one faction more and buy more of them then others.
@@matthewbohan7184 For me, it's how the game plays. I actually like that you're not rolling 40 dice for that squad, then 5 more for the heavy weapons then 3 more special weapons, then the sergeant's pistol. Move onto the next squad, repeat. That's great for a more competitive game (40k tournaments maybe) but I've never liked GW's games for competitive anyway (WH Underworlds is an exception that breaks the rule atm) Apoc is all about putting the millions of dollars of models we all have (right?) onto the table and watching them beat each other to bits while trash talking (and for me, many beers) - This lets you do it without all the micromanaging imo
Actually it’s not, the min recommend game is 300 points, that’s 150 each that works out at roughly 2500 points or less in 40k. The actual money you save from purchasing the codecs, psychic awakening and both 2018 & 2019 update books for 40k will easily help put you original 40k starter Army close to 2500 points
I think Apoc could scale down well if you just allow orders to be given per Unit rather than per Detachment. So maybe at < 300 points, orders are given per unit... And maybe commanders could give an order to multiple units if they meet certain coherency restrictions...
First off: the phrase "dumbing down" is childish and pointless. Second: Did you not listen to what he said ? A big Apocalypse game takes all day or multiple days to finish, to the point where it gets daunting and you lose the desire to play. Third: Yea 8th edition is so fast, tournament players often forgo shooting with their units because of time constraints...
Awesome video always have a great perspective. I got the new apocalypse because I saw it as 40k size battles in a kill team battle system kinda way. Easier 40k if you will. I'm all in for it. Looks super fun
The largest game I ever played was 7000pt I think. My admech, IG, assassins and my knight vs Blood Angels with a Titan. It took about 12 hours without breaks. It was so much fun :)
@@vrak24 haha yes it was! My friend had the full army out, including the Warhound Titan. Dogfighting a Stormraven with my trios of Valkyries and punching 3 hull points off the Titan with a single shot from my Vindicare assassin are only two great memories I have from that battle :) Best game ever.
This is an interesting release, another game from GW going away from the horrible IGOUGO of 40k/AoS! I would love to try this one with 6-10mm scale! But I cant figure out why they couldnt get rid of the D6s completely, would have been so nice to have only the D12s for everything.
Well, its not for me. I'd rather play kill team any day of the week. I'm actually tempted to start downsizing my collection further just because I can't work up the desire to play a regular game of 40k anymore. Kill team just really hits me in the right place. It takes up less space in my house, on my table, and gives me more time to focus on fewer miniatures. And the game is great fun as well. Thanks for this review, it was helpful.
Kill Team works because secretly 40k was always a small skirmish game that got a bunch of shit tacked on. 40k rules just don't work for anything over 1000 points, there's too much stat diving and meaningless bloat. If 40k wants to become a fun game and not a mindless battle of stat sheets it needs to go the AoS route of simplifying units so that each unit has a unified statline with a shared set of abilities. Certain weapons can act like buffs or abilities to the units, for example a group of 10 kabalite warriors a shardcannon might increase the attack value for all units in the squad for a shooting phase instead of having its own statline
Thanks for a great video! This is actually really helpful to me as I'm returning to GW after 20 years and midway though painting up a 3000pt Nid army. I've always been a hobbyist and I'm loving painting the new (plastic!) tyranid models. However, picking up all the main rules again seems a bit daunting to me, with a ton of dice to roll and things to keep track of. Apocalypse seems like a really nice way to streamline the game so I can play with my friends who already have big armies. Do I need in depth knowledge of the 8e rules for this? Or would it be a good opportunity for my friends and I to all start something that's slightly new to us?
If you've got the required number of models, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to go straight for Apocalypse. The whole point is that it doesn't play in quite the same way as regular 40K, enabling people to play huge armies in about the same amount of time as a more usual game, so great familiarity with 8th Ed is of no particular help. Also, there are rumours and suspicions of 9th Ed coming soonish anyway. Apocalypse might well suit you really well.
Knights. Titans. Super heavy tanks. Flyers. Formations. Detachments. These are all things you used to only find in Epic 40,000 where you could actually field large armies. You could afford them too. These things being a mainstay in 40K these days is why I have no interest in ever playing again. Because it’s not 40K anymore. It’s 28mm scale Epic.
Sorry, this is a side question: I seem to remember in one of your painting videos a recommendation you made for a product that was supposed to help brushes maintain their tip, but I've been absorbing a lot of tutorials/beginner paint tips recently, and if it was you, I can't remember which video or what the product was called. Does that sound familiar at all?
It's for rich people with lots of mnis OR lots of people with smaller armies within the same faction that can hook them up. There is a market for this game.
i disagree im a basically working class or lower person and i can still enjoy this game its more about time rather than money typically people dont buy 2000 point armies straight away they start with few models then paint them then buy some more then paint them and eventually u have ur army after 1-3 years ive only spent around £200 atm (including painting supplies) and i have a 500 point army easily next time i buy ill spend roughly another £100 (because i dont need paints) and get another 500 points worth. Ebay/craiglist joblots can be a goldmine, yes they are pre painted and in a state of disrepair and you would have to strip/repair the models but u can bulk buy alot of ur points from these and it only needs time to sort them out!
@@Spriggen1337 I do agree, a rich person who buys minis but has no time and is not wiling to pay someone else to build and paint is not going to get to play Apocalypse. A poor person who has a sizeable army but lots of time to build and paint is going to get to play Apocalypse. Weighing it up I think that Warhammer is not actually an expensive hobby if you stick to one or two armies and dedicate your time to building and painting them and playing.
It might be interesting to try apocalypse with a whole bunch of paper minis. Would be cheap, if you really wanted to try apocalypse but don't have an apropriately-sized army of warhammer models and your opponent is willing to go for it.
I have been playing 1850 and 2k games for so long, I only play 850 to 1k now. I'm just kind of sick of either getting railed in turn 2 in less than an hour or it takes 2 hours to get to turn 2 because the other players have no idea what they are doing.
My friends and I used to do 150k Apocalypse games back in the day. So many players, we'd turn Warhammer into Floor-hammer, and we'd do these games on 3 day weekends. My 25k points of Blood Angels miss those games...
About tokens, streamlined rules and the like: I haven't been playing for long, but I can't help but feel that the rules for apocalypse and kill team are way more elegant and reasonable than regular 40k's. I wonder if the base game will start morphing a bit in that direction in the future.
the book suggests the you play at 300PL TOTAL.. not per player.. so.. 150 PL per player is good to go.. which is roughly around 2k points list or slightly more.. this does scale fantastically to bigger games, but its a great, balanced, easy going "AoS like" version of 40k for those who are not competitive players but still want balance and fast paced play..
Most of the rules for Apocalypse should have been in 8th edition. Also, I don't see the point in buying this for just yourself -- only if you have 3+ regularly playing friends to split the cost.
Eh. I'm getting back into painting after years of not doing so. I liked to play (back in the day around 01'-02') with maybe 1500 pts, sometimes 500. It felt more skirmish like and didn't take forever and nobody really had to remember as much. 500-1000 isn't a lot, but you can field a bare-bones crew and see who can spend their points the best. Ah well, I can't remember too much anymore.
Sadly the boxes still missing a ton of data cards, and not just FW models either. Massive loss of faction rules, and you really need a whole $100 box per player :( And let’s not forget the additional cards are limited run, and they’re planning on adding several more expansions. Hope you’ve got deep pockets lol
Next step every faction gets super tanks. After all that was the coolest part of epic for me. The Titans were cool but I loved the idea of ridiculously huge tanks
great vid, some folks are trying these rules for standard sized games of 40k, while i think its not good to scale that small. maybe its for the gamers with bigger collection
Can't help myself. The last Apocalypse game I played involved a Baneblade, Shadow sword and three Knights against a Soul Grinder, Two Defilers and two Warhounds. I always thought the game was for those models pficed out of the normal 40k
What about the requirements for choice of units.I can have a lot more points if I'm able to put in all my models, but if I can't have terminators and obliterators and a dreadnaught, then it's gonna be a lot smaller. Does Apocalypse have the same sort of requirements?
Don't know if this is bad or not, but I am kinda embarrassed that my dad and I played a 3k point game one day, and after about 5 hours we had gotten through turn 3, and the store was closing. And After only being the hobby for about a year, I've got roughly 6.5k points, and he's not far behind me. Interested in Apocalypse, but $100 for the starter box is kinda steep to me
@@skree272 Ok, in that case, 500ish points to start with should be ok. I looked at the new Space Wolves SC box and it's a little disappointing in all honesty. If you really want to play them, I'd buy what you want separately. The very bare minimum army you can make is a Patrol Detachment which is 1 to 2 HQ units and 1-3 Troop units. I recommend starting off with 500 points worth of stuff. You can use BattleScribe to design your army the way you want to and it'll give you the point values.
@@GorillionDollars ok, honestly i think the start collecting is a good start for my army, all i really will add is either a land raider or predator plus another tactical squad and a iron priest
You know... This may be worth a second shot if you got a 3d printer. Not in full 28 mm, but possibly as a 14/15mm game. Convert all inches to centimeters for ranges, get multi bases.... Hmmm
Warhammer epic was a cool thing, but apocalypse is about playing in the same scale as vanilla, and there's unique things that apocalypse does that is unique to epic Let's hope that the best case scenario happens and they update both epic and apocalypse...and don't let them die... again
I may get into it but 40k games have been very few and far between for me last few years,( more bolt action, infinity, xwing) I do have 12k points of Ultramarines and I think 6000k knights of GW AND FW variants. So will be good to see if I can get large games in and for a lot less time investment during a day.
As a DKoK player, im still sat waiting for my rules expansion lol. as usual GW seems to ignore those of us whom buy 1 of their most expensive armies to field lol. I loved apoc back in 7th with 4-5 a side, was great fun.
I do not agree that you need more stuff than you have in regular 40K. I love to play this game in equivalent of 2000 pts in 8th edition. The advice in rulebook isnt acurrate, you can have a great 45 min to 1 hour game with normaln 40k army (Around 2000 pts). It faaar more user friendly and imo far more modern and sophosticated ruleset than any 40k edition. Its basically a kill team with 40k size.
IDK, I get the appeal of the trays but you can get those cheep elsewhere. As far as the rest of it, 8th edition is quick and streamlined enough that I'm already playing what I feel like are apocalypse games in the time it took to play a normal game in 7th edition.
Definitely for people who have invested a lot of money into the hobby.
Privateer Press really needs to do this for Warmachine. Create a less competitive, fast version of the game that's designed to bring lots of models and lots of fun. It would breathe a lot of life back into the game =)
Huzzah!
I agree. Should have done this instead of unbound.
When I played that, it was the one thing I felt it was missing. If it had it (even if I never played it), I probably would have moved over from 40K.
been saying the same thing.. of course few warmahordes players agreed.. the same (barely double digit amount of folks) still playing it in my area..
In the Chicago meta we occasionally have events called Sunday Fundays where we frequently used home brewed rules and scenarios for massive team battles. However, streamlined rules for mass activation would go a long way toward increasing interest
I miss Epic: we once filled an 8’x4’ table with those tiny models
People are still making the original and proxy models. Games still alive and well
The new Apocalypse works beautifully with Epic models. Just change distances from inches into cm and you're good to go.
I actually came to this video wondering if it was related to Epic. I left GW games in 2000.
As a painter with a lot of models who has barely played 40k, this seems to have a simpler game system.
I've been thinking that - especially if you are big on aesthetics, it's a nice relief to know that how you've modelled your infantry basically doesn't matter and I don't have to work out the points and roll seperately for every two guys in a squad.
@@Cirac1 honestly this is how regular 40k should be. Age of Sigmar actually got this right: have a base line of troops, then choose more specialized options with a normalized stat list and niche to build around them.
I used to play 40K 2nd edition a lot but seriously disliked 3rd so stopped playing. Never stopped collecting though. 8th edition seemed at first to be a good rework but now has a similar rules bloat that 7th was heavily criticised for. So rather than getting into 8th ed I'm wondering if Apocalypse is more suitable just because its a simpler system.
So 3000 point games arent the norm? That's all me and my friends play!
*drops two baneblades down*
Loooove baneblades =D
It's not the norm in most places. I'd do that every time! (When I had the time to play :'( )
My friends and I are currently doing a battle where each of us brings 3k!... except there's 10 of us *welp*
@@daringdarius5686 That's true apoc! I'd love that!
@@urdaanglospey6666 the only thing you might not like is there are no baneblades coming... there ARE 2 shadowswords, along with 13 knights (divied up on each side)
Moving back to 12 siders I think you mean. 2nd Edition 40k was full of D4, D8, D10, D12 and D20. It took absolutely forever but it was also amazing to play.
amazing if you played Chaos.
Yes, at that time I built my 100 figure Imperial Guard unit. Which cost $100.00. Five boxes of 20 figures each; miss those days. But, I enjoyed the freedom of developing my unit. Plus, I created my own chapter back then, which I still use now. Hurrah for the Irish Fist.
hell I'm young and my sister and I still get confused when playing blackstone fortress whenever we forget to put a wound counter down
Had my last apoc game about a month ago. 10 players, roughly 20,000 points on the table, before you add in the Warlord that was used. We ended it at the end of turn 3 after about 10 hours. I think the reason it went so quickly, was because 3 of the players on my team, myself included, brought guard. And I hade a full tank company. We just made a firing line and DECIMATED the other team. The warlord was killed in a turn and a half.
It was fun. 10/10 will do more full apoc games.
Geeko170 I agree so much. That is what apoc is for. Just a s*load of models and dice
BOOOORRRING Imperial Guard just sitting still, jeez.
Busstheleng
Yeah. But they are still fun to play.
I love guard at apoc sizes. You put the troops back in the box and take a tank for each soldier you would have had in a normal sized game. Fun times.
We had a yearly game event that went on, it was 12 players per side, 5000pts each, 2 day event. Utter chaos, so much fun!
It was quite the ordeal (time wise especially) [and more so when players could freely spread their forces out across 12 tables] it would be much much much simpler with the new rules. Could easily go to higher power level now and play faster. The fact you keep detachments within a command radius would localize the play for smaller activations, meaning you don't have to yell across the tables to get the attention of the person you want to fire at lol
Lastly, I'm gonna be "that guy" - decimated means you killed a 10% of their force. Everyone seems to get that wrong now a days :P - annihilated, demolished, abolished or obliterated would work much better
I reached the "memory-goes-to-crap-need-tokens" point, too! :D
WHAT???! SPEAK UP DEAR, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
*backache intensifies*
I'm 21 and I need tokens. I can barely remember the rules of the game.
I think you're missing the positive sides of the ruleset using an abstract system. You can easily run full scale apoc games with fewer miniatures than a 2k 40K army. Obviously you wouldn't be getting quite as grand a spectacle, but the point stands.
Also my hope is to play at the 75-100 powerppoint level (about 1.8-2k in 40K terms) and just have a more enjoyable ruleset.
Good video, of course :)
100% this
Yep, me too.
Just play 2nd ed Space Marine, the source material for this GWs latest ad hoc Frankenstein
I'm actually liking a bunch of the rules choices enough, that I don't think I need to play 40k's normal rules (maybe for 750-1500pts ranges)
Alternating activation, damage being calculated at the end of a turn, psychic powers not needing a dice roll, power level only, simplified (and free) unit rules, the d12-d6 system (is really quite elegant)
I'm still gonna try and use apocalypse rules for smaller games to introduce people to 40k like with the simpler rules and all the cool models
I was seriously thinking the same thing after I looked at the rules. Playing games that are roughly regular sized games but just using the simplified Apocalypse rules in order to just make games go more quickly.
Me too, it sounds much quicker, just ban the brigade detachment and run the ulternate turn detachment system
@@sambathelionking whats wrong with brigade detachment?
@@jovannibaeza191 well based on my understanding of apocalypse you take turns moving detachments. But in small game of 40k a brigade is often the entire army. So you'd lose the enjoyment of that ruleset. You'd have one person move their brigade, is whole army and the other guy move his detachments one after the other since the brigade guy has no more detachments to move. Do you get what I mean?
That and the smaller detachments are fluff engines of joy. Its a shame they aren't worth more cp. Frankly the brigade should be worth a lower amount of cp and the small groups worth a lot because you're doing something fluffy.
@@sambathelionking oh i see what you mean. yeah that makes sense
I'd like to see an experiment where Apocalypse is played at 125ish Power Level. If it works, it could be considered simply a more streamlined variant ruleset for regular 40k...
This probably isn't for us. Here at the Agoraphobia Support Center we've been playing Kill Team using EPIC 40K models on a terrain-laden mouse pad.
That... actually sounds like it could be a good time.
Ahahahahahhh
Thank's for the vids Atom. We use to play Warhammer ancients and used to play huge games which was fine. However I pushed that we do a progressive campaign with the starting army size as 1000pts and each game won gave the victor +50pts to their army total. However ths games were much faster as you may only have 6 units or so. Even as the points crept up the army units numbers gradually grew but we still had relatively quick games. As a result we could have 2, maybe even 3 games in one session and it helped when mixed with the progressive campaign to create an enjoyable gaming experience. If you've ever played Risk: Legacy compared to traditional Risk you'll really understand what I mean. We went totally off the massive game on a massive day idea for the reasons as you say. 12 hours and you're only part way through is just a slog on average. We applied this to our 40k games too and other systems and it really worked for us.
I used to work for workshop in one of their stores (I was the painter guy) and they had a 'massive game's day' and had a daft amount of points. It was literally edge to edge tanks and about 2 or 3 rows deep. It was just rolling dice. No to littlw moving of units, no combined effects of units, no strategy, just rolling dice. Fine if that's the way you go but we found smaller games that meant those precious few units are relatively more valuable and there's the space on the table to really try to go for objectives or whatever. Each game style has it's fun and merits though, just giving the benefit of my experience 👍🏻
I think the majority of the older fans i know see apoc as a social event just as, if not more than a gaming event, hence why they found the appeal of the long games
I have 35k pts of CHSM..my body is ready !
HOLY CRAP! And I thought my 10K of Daemons was impressive!
I do wonder just how many games of Apocalypse get played every year to warrant the need for this. It feels like a level of models that happens as an annual celebration at a store or gaming club or a birthday game.
I wonder if the change in the rules which makes it less similar to 40K will be a barrier rather than an attraction. Will watch this with interest to see what people think once it’s released.
Yeh, seems to me that people play apocalypse games BECAUSE they are long and dragged out. A rules system that makes it quicker and easier to play sounds great, but do the people who play apocalypse want it?
AJ Ratcliffe - this is exactly my thought. I don’t play Apocalypse so can only give an opinion from seeing others do it but it’s almost like that’s the attraction. The long all day game.
@@AJratcliffe i have big models. i want to use big models. i have many models. i want to use many models.
well other than that very simplified way of saying it i don't have 2 days to play apocalypse as much as i have a want to play with all my stuff
Effectively, if you still want an all-day game with a bunch of friends, this ruleset just lets you play a larger game, with less book keeping and more time interacting with the game [alternating activations] (the old system, we literally had half the opposition team outside having a smoke, while the other team moved and such.
It was also always a case of the team that won the 1st turn roll off, won (not that that's a reason you play apoc, but having your super-heavies shot to death before you can use them sucked a fair bit)
It's a hundred bucks for bloody cards and paper tokens... are you kidding me
Yup...and you can download some of the stuff for free on their website.
@Leman Russ what models? This is just the Apocalypse box, so just a bunch of cards and some dice...
@@louisdzitko4604 sure, you save some on those. But you still need the remarkably overpriced base box I was referring to.
@@Son0fAggression Plenty of board games on the market right now at or over $100.00. Usually just cards and tokens. Sometimes very cheap monocolor plastic figures.
@@GTChade you're kidding right? Those board games have tons of minis included and you can well... actually play them without having to spend 200 more bucks. This is like separating a very small but still relevant part of a single game and selling it for the same price of the game
It reminds me of Epic as well. I loved those rules.
They clearly took some ideas from different editions of Epic, which were some of the best systems GW has ever come up with. So much so that the new Apocalypse works beautifully with old Epic models if you happen to have any lying around...
I'm excited about this almost to the point of indecency! Pre-ordered it, natch. Myself and some friends have tried playing great big games, multiple players, pooling armies etc. but good grief, it's cumbersome. Plus, of course, we have lives! Been feverishly painting to put in a good showing for some truly spectacular-looking games with little dudes all over the place.
I admire your drive and enthusiasm, wish I could see your tabletop battlefield. 👍🙂
I still have not played for 20 years, but have started painting my unfinished models this year.
I had a 10,000 point Eldar army for second edition, and most games I played were 5,000 points. Not sure how many points my army will be in 8th.
Games normally took at least 5 hours.
"...It's a 100 dollars box..."
Me: (Sadly looking at my lonely 5 dollar bill).
I can totally see the action sequence being in the next edition of 40k.
I can see team games of Apocalypse being a thing with combined small armies.
I just started the Patreon support last month and I would urge any of you longtime viewers to do the same.
I finally pulled the trigger after thinking about how much I pay for Netflix and Prime and yet how much more value I get out of TM and a few other TH-camrs. TH-cam and podcasts have become the few content/shows I look forward to and get excited about. If you feel the same way, I would urge you to do the same so we can keep the content going and vote with our dollars. Rather this than big network trash.
I like this guys face. It promotes peace. It also looks like that guy from Toy Story 2.
I played a ten a side game at my local shop once. It took us an hour and a half to get through six rounds because we all trusted each other not to cheat and a whole side went at once and the only person who had to pay attention to what you were doing was the one you were attacking. And that was the normal 40k rules.
Kind of sounds like what battletech/battlespace did a decade or so ago. Lumping damage and heat into clusters, fighter squads instead of individuals, etc.
Thanks for the review Atom. From this I can make an informed decision on this rule set and wether or not I'm interested. I watched one of GW'S videos on "Apocalypse", demonstrating the rule set and was immediately struck by similarities to " Epic 40000: Armageddon" which reminds me I still have a pile of epic stuff to paint!
"Apocolypse" Looks fun but seems better suited to a group of players who have massive collections and play fairly regularly.
40k apoc is a dry run for 9th ed especially if rumors are if the various phases are u move i move then we shoot together and models/wounds are taken of after both shooting has been resolved
I hope that's false... the way they do wounding is absolutely atrocious. The Intercessor Bolt Rifle is better than Thunder Hammers or Plasma Guns lol
@@Tomekkthegreat i looked at the rules and that dos not seem true. thunder hammers get x2 attacks on a 6+ 6+
bolt rifles are a rapid fire 5+ 8+
and plasma cannon is supercharged 7+ 7+
but hellblaster squads use plasma incinerators rapid fire and supercharge on a 5+ 6+
and the only "plasma gun" i could find was on the rhino primaris
Tomekk the part you are missing is that the stats for the intercessior bolt rifle is for the whole squad of 5 models shooting. So in that case they are better than a single plasma gun in 40k right now as well.
It does seem like a pre alpha test. But I'm okay with that. They've got some good ideas. Some that need improvement, but also some great ones, for sure
I certainly hope so. IGOYGO eventually destroyed my interest in 40K. Kill Team brought me back to GW. I’d be back to 40K immediately if the nigh interminable turn “stall” was eliminated with a more alternate activation-style mode.
Why should you not use this ruleset for smaller games? It's just a different game with another philosphy behind it: less detailed, more streamlined, and more elegant to be honest.
because it's made for spectacle; if you were using this at a much smaller scale games would take a significantly smaller amount of time, and be significantly less interesting because of it due to a removal of a lot of the complexity and strategy of regular 40k
Thank's for the vids Atom. We use to play Warhammer ancients and used to play huge games which was fine. However I pushed that we do a progressive campaign with the starting army size as 1000pts and each game won gave the victor +50pts to their army total. However ths games were much faster as you may only have 6 units or so. Even as the points crept up the army units numbers gradually grew but we still had relatively quick games. As a result we could have 2, maybe even 3 games in one session and it helped when mixed with the progressive campaign. We went totally off the massive game on a massive day idea for the reasons as you say. 12 hours and you're only part way through is just a slog on average.
I used to work for workshop in one of their stores (I was the painter guy) and they had a 'massive game's day' and had a daft amount of points. It was literally edge to edge tanks and about 2 or 3 rows deep. It was just rolling dice. No to littlw moving of units, no combined effects of units, no strategy, just rolling dice. Fine if that's the way you go but we found smaller games that meant those precious few units are relatively more valuable and there's the space on the table to really try to go for objectives or whatever. Each game style has it's fun and merits though, just giving the benefit of my experience 👍🏻
I would rather have full Epic rules added to Adeptus Titanticus. Still, for 40k players I am glad to see that they can play with all their toys.
It is a possibility. There's still two size categories below the knights that aren't being used yet.
I am messing around with this on my YT channel.
I seriously love your vids man ive just started to get into the tabletop of 40k, and your vids are all super helpful. probably gonna stick with trying to build up some kill teams in different factions first cause that seems easier with cousins, but this video gets me hypeed for apoklypse and makes me not worry about buying to many lol. more into the painting aspect of it so I was worried about not having anything to do with my extra kill teams if I like one faction more and buy more of them then others.
One hundred dollars ... Must be a nice box.
Robert Jensen until you realize that $100 worth of models are literally a squad that role 3 dice.
Gdubs value, so it's probably only worth 30 normal people dollars
Solid gold inlay, blessed by the finest priests and printed with only the top quality squid ink. Money can't buy this!
@@matthewbohan7184 For me, it's how the game plays. I actually like that you're not rolling 40 dice for that squad, then 5 more for the heavy weapons then 3 more special weapons, then the sergeant's pistol. Move onto the next squad, repeat.
That's great for a more competitive game (40k tournaments maybe) but I've never liked GW's games for competitive anyway (WH Underworlds is an exception that breaks the rule atm)
Apoc is all about putting the millions of dollars of models we all have (right?) onto the table and watching them beat each other to bits while trash talking (and for me, many beers) - This lets you do it without all the micromanaging imo
Damn I love your voice. I keep using it to fall asleep, so soothing!
I want the big mega army packs back like those hundreds of Tyranids for a relatively cheap price 🙏🏼
God, that voice is soothing AF...
Imagine uncle atom audiobooks
@@TheUrizen yes please!
@@TheUrizen He could do Black Library!
What the fuck are you talking about?
Been collecting for 20+ years? Then this is the game for you!
Actually it’s not, the min recommend game is 300 points, that’s 150 each that works out at roughly 2500 points or less in 40k.
The actual money you save from purchasing the codecs, psychic awakening and both 2018 & 2019 update books for 40k will easily help put you original 40k starter Army close to 2500 points
I think Apoc could scale down well if you just allow orders to be given per Unit rather than per Detachment. So maybe at < 300 points, orders are given per unit... And maybe commanders could give an order to multiple units if they meet certain coherency restrictions...
When you said polyhedron I hoped you would say dodecahedron instead of d12 ;)
8th edition is streamlined enough to play apocalypse fast and easy on a weekend. no need to dumb it down.
then you are not playing big enough apocalypse
Probably true. The 8th ed rules are pretty fast.
First off: the phrase "dumbing down" is childish and pointless. Second: Did you not listen to what he said ? A big Apocalypse game takes all day or multiple days to finish, to the point where it gets daunting and you lose the desire to play. Third: Yea 8th edition is so fast, tournament players often forgo shooting with their units because of time constraints...
Played a 200 pointer on Sat was a blast learning. Not taking away units until the end of a turn is amazingggg.
Awesome video always have a great perspective. I got the new apocalypse because I saw it as 40k size battles in a kill team battle system kinda way. Easier 40k if you will. I'm all in for it. Looks super fun
The largest game I ever played was 7000pt I think.
My admech, IG, assassins and my knight vs Blood Angels with a Titan. It took about 12 hours without breaks. It was so much fun :)
Victoria Törnkvist god 7000 points of blood angels sounds GLORIOUS lmao
@@vrak24 haha yes it was! My friend had the full army out, including the Warhound Titan.
Dogfighting a Stormraven with my trios of Valkyries and punching 3 hull points off the Titan with a single shot from my Vindicare assassin are only two great memories I have from that battle :)
Best game ever.
This is an interesting release, another game from GW going away from the horrible IGOUGO of 40k/AoS!
I would love to try this one with 6-10mm scale! But I cant figure out why they couldnt get rid of the D6s completely, would have been so nice to have only the D12s for everything.
Well, its not for me. I'd rather play kill team any day of the week. I'm actually tempted to start downsizing my collection further just because I can't work up the desire to play a regular game of 40k anymore.
Kill team just really hits me in the right place. It takes up less space in my house, on my table, and gives me more time to focus on fewer miniatures. And the game is great fun as well.
Thanks for this review, it was helpful.
Kill Team works because secretly 40k was always a small skirmish game that got a bunch of shit tacked on. 40k rules just don't work for anything over 1000 points, there's too much stat diving and meaningless bloat. If 40k wants to become a fun game and not a mindless battle of stat sheets it needs to go the AoS route of simplifying units so that each unit has a unified statline with a shared set of abilities. Certain weapons can act like buffs or abilities to the units, for example a group of 10 kabalite warriors a shardcannon might increase the attack value for all units in the squad for a shooting phase instead of having its own statline
We are play testing 40k 9th edition
Thanks for a great video!
This is actually really helpful to me as I'm returning to GW after 20 years and midway though painting up a 3000pt Nid army.
I've always been a hobbyist and I'm loving painting the new (plastic!) tyranid models. However, picking up all the main rules again seems a bit daunting to me, with a ton of dice to roll and things to keep track of.
Apocalypse seems like a really nice way to streamline the game so I can play with my friends who already have big armies.
Do I need in depth knowledge of the 8e rules for this? Or would it be a good opportunity for my friends and I to all start something that's slightly new to us?
If you've got the required number of models, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to go straight for Apocalypse. The whole point is that it doesn't play in quite the same way as regular 40K, enabling people to play huge armies in about the same amount of time as a more usual game, so great familiarity with 8th Ed is of no particular help. Also, there are rumours and suspicions of 9th Ed coming soonish anyway. Apocalypse might well suit you really well.
Knights. Titans. Super heavy tanks. Flyers. Formations. Detachments. These are all things you used to only find in Epic 40,000 where you could actually field large armies. You could afford them too.
These things being a mainstay in 40K these days is why I have no interest in ever playing again. Because it’s not 40K anymore. It’s 28mm scale Epic.
Sorry, this is a side question: I seem to remember in one of your painting videos a recommendation you made for a product that was supposed to help brushes maintain their tip, but I've been absorbing a lot of tutorials/beginner paint tips recently, and if it was you, I can't remember which video or what the product was called. Does that sound familiar at all?
It's for rich people with lots of mnis OR lots of people with smaller armies within the same faction that can hook them up. There is a market for this game.
i disagree im a basically working class or lower person and i can still enjoy this game its more about time rather than money typically people dont buy 2000 point armies straight away they start with few models then paint them then buy some more then paint them and eventually u have ur army after 1-3 years ive only spent around £200 atm (including painting supplies) and i have a 500 point army easily next time i buy ill spend roughly another £100 (because i dont need paints) and get another 500 points worth.
Ebay/craiglist joblots can be a goldmine, yes they are pre painted and in a state of disrepair and you would have to strip/repair the models but u can bulk buy alot of ur points from these and it only needs time to sort them out!
@@Spriggen1337 I do agree, a rich person who buys minis but has no time and is not wiling to pay someone else to build and paint is not going to get to play Apocalypse. A poor person who has a sizeable army but lots of time to build and paint is going to get to play Apocalypse. Weighing it up I think that Warhammer is not actually an expensive hobby if you stick to one or two armies and dedicate your time to building and painting them and playing.
I have a little over 10,000 points of iron warriors that would love to be on the table all at once!
It might be interesting to try apocalypse with a whole bunch of paper minis. Would be cheap, if you really wanted to try apocalypse but don't have an apropriately-sized army of warhammer models and your opponent is willing to go for it.
I have been playing 1850 and 2k games for so long, I only play 850 to 1k now. I'm just kind of sick of either getting railed in turn 2 in less than an hour or it takes 2 hours to get to turn 2 because the other players have no idea what they are doing.
Pretty sure it's for me, with my enormous grey pile of unpainted Space Marines dating back to 2001. Time to crack out the airbrush!
My friends and I used to do 150k Apocalypse games back in the day. So many players, we'd turn Warhammer into Floor-hammer, and we'd do these games on 3 day weekends. My 25k points of Blood Angels miss those games...
My deathguard, angels apocrypha, soul drinkers, and renegades together will get me to apoc levels.
t od 30k Blood angels an 15.000 Mecenikum army. Love Acop..
About tokens, streamlined rules and the like: I haven't been playing for long, but I can't help but feel that the rules for apocalypse and kill team are way more elegant and reasonable than regular 40k's. I wonder if the base game will start morphing a bit in that direction in the future.
the book suggests the you play at 300PL TOTAL.. not per player..
so.. 150 PL per player is good to go.. which is roughly around 2k points list or slightly more.. this does scale fantastically to bigger games, but its a great, balanced, easy going "AoS like" version of 40k for those who are not competitive players but still want balance and fast paced play..
Most of the rules for Apocalypse should have been in 8th edition. Also, I don't see the point in buying this for just yourself -- only if you have 3+ regularly playing friends to split the cost.
because, you know, shiny... :-)
1,500 - 2,000pts Apocalypse looks like it could be fast and fun. 9th Edition 40k?
I definitely hope not
Eh. I'm getting back into painting after years of not doing so. I liked to play (back in the day around 01'-02') with maybe 1500 pts, sometimes 500. It felt more skirmish like and didn't take forever and nobody really had to remember as much. 500-1000 isn't a lot, but you can field a bare-bones crew and see who can spend their points the best.
Ah well, I can't remember too much anymore.
Maybe try getting into Killteam?
I had about... 60000 points of chaos space marines about 6 years ago... I miss that army.
Sadly the boxes still missing a ton of data cards, and not just FW models either.
Massive loss of faction rules, and you really need a whole $100 box per player :(
And let’s not forget the additional cards are limited run, and they’re planning on adding several more expansions. Hope you’ve got deep pockets lol
Not for me, with that absurd price point. And if the apparent price hike is real on everything else.... I think I'm done with 40k in general lol.
Kill Team man, give it a go, breath of fresh air and easier on the wallet too.
I done with it too. Again. I was done before, got sucked in again, and now I'm out. For now.
Just play epic 40k man.. it’s better, there are tournaments and communities as well.
So, they made WH40k Epic rules for their regular sized minis now. Hmm
Next step every faction gets super tanks. After all that was the coolest part of epic for me. The Titans were cool but I loved the idea of ridiculously huge tanks
Which seems pointless to me.
They changed the price of the models, for exemple the wraithknight box costed 90€ and now 110€ or the hemlock fighter costed 50€ and cost now 60€!
great vid, some folks are trying these rules for standard sized games of 40k, while i think its not good to scale that small. maybe its for the gamers with bigger collection
Finally! Rules for me to field all 15 of my Custodes models.
*wonders if GW is using this to Guinea pig tweaks to the regular rules*
I'll have to look it up. But I think it recommend at least 300power on the table. Not pr side. So 150 or s pr side. Aproximatly 3000 points pr player.
Can't help myself. The last Apocalypse game I played involved a Baneblade, Shadow sword and three Knights against a Soul Grinder, Two Defilers and two Warhounds. I always thought the game was for those models pficed out of the normal 40k
So Epic 40K on a Apocalypse scale?
The rules look worse than Epic Armageddon.
What about the requirements for choice of units.I can have a lot more points if I'm able to put in all my models, but if I can't have terminators and obliterators and a dreadnaught, then it's gonna be a lot smaller. Does Apocalypse have the same sort of requirements?
I just like the box sets they brought out for apocalypse great value
wonder how epic scale models do with this expansion
Don't know if this is bad or not, but I am kinda embarrassed that my dad and I played a 3k point game one day, and after about 5 hours we had gotten through turn 3, and the store was closing. And After only being the hobby for about a year, I've got roughly 6.5k points, and he's not far behind me. Interested in Apocalypse, but $100 for the starter box is kinda steep to me
Whats a good army point starter? And how many points do the start collecting boxes have?
Really depends on the army you want. For example, the Orks' SC box doesn't even come with an HQ unit which is essential to a game.
@@GorillionDollars ok so id like to start space wolves,
@@skree272 Ok, in that case, 500ish points to start with should be ok. I looked at the new Space Wolves SC box and it's a little disappointing in all honesty. If you really want to play them, I'd buy what you want separately.
The very bare minimum army you can make is a Patrol Detachment which is 1 to 2 HQ units and 1-3 Troop units. I recommend starting off with 500 points worth of stuff. You can use BattleScribe to design your army the way you want to and it'll give you the point values.
@@GorillionDollars ok, honestly i think the start collecting is a good start for my army, all i really will add is either a land raider or predator plus another tactical squad and a iron priest
I sadden now with these new rules I won’t be able to play an old apocalypse game but instead now I role like 3 dice for $100 worth of models
Don't, worry, you can still play the original apocalypse.
So can I bring my Revenant Titan???
Favourite term ever... new models...you know shiny.
You know... This may be worth a second shot if you got a 3d printer. Not in full 28 mm, but possibly as a 14/15mm game. Convert all inches to centimeters for ranges, get multi bases.... Hmmm
Warhammer epic was a cool thing, but apocalypse is about playing in the same scale as vanilla, and there's unique things that apocalypse does that is unique to epic
Let's hope that the best case scenario happens and they update both epic and apocalypse...and don't let them die... again
My box set turned up today and my 20,000 points of imperium troops are frothing at the mouth with keen to get stuck in to it.
The box sets are good for new players because of the price. Much better value than buying the individual models
You young wipper snappers.
Back in my day, we used d4,d6,d8,d10,d12,d20,and the Golf ball (d100)
You forgot D2 and D3
@@naphaneal don't remember them in WHFB 2nd. Edition. Maybe D3?
:P The ruleset is also better than 40k, so just getting yourself to 100 power level of apoc is worth it
I may get into it but 40k games have been very few and far between for me last few years,( more bolt action, infinity, xwing) I do have 12k points of Ultramarines and I think 6000k knights of GW AND FW variants. So will be good to see if I can get large games in and for a lot less time investment during a day.
As a DKoK player, im still sat waiting for my rules expansion lol. as usual GW seems to ignore those of us whom buy 1 of their most expensive armies to field lol. I loved apoc back in 7th with 4-5 a side, was great fun.
I will be using these rules in regular games from now on. Am getting tired of the lopsided power strugle and win if you go first games.
In HH (Horus Heresy) the average game is about 2500 points.
I do not agree that you need more stuff than you have in regular 40K. I love to play this game in equivalent of 2000 pts in 8th edition. The advice in rulebook isnt acurrate, you can have a great 45 min to 1 hour game with normaln 40k army (Around 2000 pts). It faaar more user friendly and imo far more modern and sophosticated ruleset than any 40k edition. Its basically a kill team with 40k size.
IDK, I get the appeal of the trays but you can get those cheep elsewhere. As far as the rest of it, 8th edition is quick and streamlined enough that I'm already playing what I feel like are apocalypse games in the time it took to play a normal game in 7th edition.
the boxes are great value even if you don’t want to play apocalypse
I play Apocalypse in normal 2000 point games since I play Guards.
Welcome to 9th Ed. Nice stealth launch GW.
Cool shirts.
*30kpts Word Bearers & Renegade auxiliaries wants to know your location*
For those who have proper god machines and legions of support infantry.