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Wish there was a scene where someone from Starfleet security went into Starfleet command to give a report to an admiral. Explain it had already been recaptured by Starfleet before we caught up with the Prometheus. That it was re-commandeered by EMHs. The admiral asks how as the EMH mk2 is programmed to deactivate itself. Then the security officer explains another EMH transferred onboard. The Admiral asks from where. Only to be told that it was from the USS Voyager. The camera turns down to the admirals desk and we see a picture of Tom there. I think it would be a good introduction to Admiral Paris.
I interpreted the diplomatic responses afterwards to go something along the lines of: “What the hell does starfleet think it’s doing! You attacked two warbirds and killed dozens of romulans!” “Yes.” “…so you admit it?” “Freely. In fact, go ahead and publicize to the entire quadrant that while we’re already engaged in a full scale war, you tried to stab us in the back, violate your neutrality, and that our warship managed to single handedly annihilate your most powerful warships.” “…” “No? Good. Starfleet doesn’t need more enemies right now, but if you fuck with us, we will be *happy* to accommodate you. Stay on your side of the goddamn line.”
Haha, I love it. The Federation really should play hardball like that more often. Their devotion to playing nice seems to lead them to disaster an awful lot.
@@tba113 Honestly, starfleet playing hardball is so much more satisfying *because* they're nice. Like, having The Imperium of Man or the Galactic empire orbitally bombard someone is fun to watch, but you *expect* that from them. It's so much more satisfying with the federation because you know starfleet plays nice first. They send the diplomats, and ambassadors, and scientists to find a nice, mutually beneficial solution first. So when Starfleet breaks out the brass knuckles, it's *so* much better because you know the guy getting smacked down *deserves* it.
@@korben600 Exactly. When the Federation serves you your own ass on a plate, it's probably because you were asking for it. I can easily see someone like Ross matter-of-factly putting some stuck-up Romulan attack dog back in his place with the speech you wrote. And one of his aides saying "You almost enjoyed that."
The Federations greatest strength is it’s diversity. People dealing with them never know what’s going to come up. Diplomat or warrior, explorer or scientist. Heck most of the time they don’t know if they’re going to get a Logical Vulcan, passionate Andorian, stubborn tellerite or batshit crazy human. Other races HATE going up against the Feds because they have a nigh infinite bag of unpredictable tricks.
Actually I would say it makes sense why Prometheus was built near the Romulan border. The Romulans have a non aggression pact with the Dominion and it's unlikely that the dominion would be travelling through Romulan space without reason. So I would think this would provide a buffer of safety for the Federation.
in DS9 it was stated the the Dominion traveled through Romulan space regularly to conduct raids against the Federation. it was one of the issues that the Federation didn't like about the Romulan neutrality.
Romulans: Detect an unknown UFP vessel near their borders. Also Romulans: Send elite operatives to capture the vessel instead of confronting Starfleet about it. The operatives: Get out played by 2 EMH holograms.
Quick note on timeline: "Message in a Bottle": stardate 51462, is closest to DS9's "One Little Ship" stardate 51474.2 12.2 stardate paces, at the generally observed 1000 or so stardates per Earth year during the TNG era, would place it a little under 4 and a half days before the DS9 Episode. The previous DS9 episode with a stardate for reference seems to be Waltz, at stardate 51408.6, placing those events 65.6 stardates before Voyager's episode, or roughly 24 days before. In the Pale moonlight, the "it's only been two weeks" narration, happens on 51721.3, 259.3 stardate paces after, roughly 95 days after. So in universe: the Romulans went from killing a Starfleet crew to steal an experimental ship, to joining the fight along side of Starfleet in about 3 months. if the 1000 stardates per Earth year work out
Given that Romulans are not only calculating but also opportunistic and considerable, when conftonted with new situations, this would not even be a contradiction. Besides Tal'Shiar allways needs to keep taps on their closest enemies.
I think of the relationship between the Federation and the Romulans as analogous to that of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union during World War II. They got along to defeat the immediate threat at hand but both sides knew it was only an alliance of convience. The Soviets did some very unfriendly things to the Western Allies during the war which often went overlooked for convince.
"The Romulans just got away with it, with no consequences." Well, I mean, as you said, *if* they had gotten away with it. And they lost an entire Warbird and crew. Aside from the poll noting that it almost certainly was a "rogue event" disavowed by the Romulans, seeing as the attempt failed, knowing Starfleets M.O. and considering the stakes of the Dominion War, I imagine they just kinda gave them the interstellar diplomatic equivalent of a look saying "we both know what you *tried* and failed to do, watch your arse." Similar to the end of the TNG episode "The Wounded" with the Cardasians. No official action was taken, but there were definitely consequences.
Yeah. In this case, it'd be enough to send them on their way with "Take that mess of a face home to Romulus, and remember who bloodied it. Think about it next time you consider knocking on our door with a disruptor in hand."
It was stated in DS9 that the Dominion had been regularly violating the neutral zone to attack federation assets, it makes a bit of a sense that the Prometheus would be deployed in that area for testing. It's far away from the front lines so the Dominion wont steal it, but it's still got dominion targets to go after to test its capabilities. It's likely the Romulans saw this mysterious ship on long range sensors (We know they can scan past the neutral zone border into fed space, either by long range sensors or just using Cloaked warbirds in the zone) It's likely that a cloaked warbird encountered the Prometheus with its shields down (Not expecting cloaked dominion ships, maybe it was in a 'safer' area so they weren't at alert or anything. And the Romulans beamed over from a cloaked warbird before the Prometheus was aware it was there. It's also possible that they chased a dominion ship into the neutral zone, violated it, then left after it was destroyed, and a cloaked warbird shadowed it back to the shipyard where it then stole it while it was being repaired after that battle. My bigger question is why would a ship so secret and powerful not have some kind of bridge lockout, or a bio sensor that locks Romulans out of the computer considering you're that close to the Neutral Zone.
You would think there would have been some kind of code like Wrath of Khan that would have disabled the ship and then the crew of that Nebula class could have just ended the problem then and there...
maybe the process of making the ship was rushed cuz they were fighting a war and certain things were overlooked like built in safety systems against non federation take overs
@@MrCrystalm8 Security would be the main thing they would focus on, that and weapons/defense, it would be things like holodecks, crew amenities, and aux systems that would get overlooked.
@@MrCrystalm8 The ship was testing an entirely new level of ship separation and had a number of new technologies, security would be the first thing they'd work on.
@@RebornV3 Yeah that's a Sci Fi trope that I'd really like to know if it has any basis in reality. It sounds absolutely absurd to me to build in that kind of weakness into a military ship. If someone stole the codes they could wipe out your whole fleet with a flick of a button. Do any real navies have guillotine codes?
I would hardly call losing the strike team and a D'Deridex warship to be "getting away with it". As for not making a bigger stink, I think you're right that the Federation didn't want to push the Romulans closer to joining the Dominion. But, it's entirely possible that Section 31 responded in some fashion...
do you think starfleet was hiding the uss prometheus from Sisko like reason why the prometheus was being tested so close to romulan space was that was far as they could from Sisko. That is also the reason why the romulans did'nt say anything was the fear that if Sisko learned about the prometheus he'd want it he'd get it and end the war by the end of the week.
Starfleet should have demanded a exemption to the "no cloaking devices" rule in the Treaty of Algeron, at least for the duration of the Dominion war. Starfleet could have used Klingon cloaks because of course Starfleet have no cloaks of their own lying around… However that might explain the sudden loophole that the Defiant had about _using its cloak in the Alpha Quadrant_ - that was compensation for the Prometheus attempt. But if that's the case, Starfleet should have called for more. That was selling itself cheap. Perhaps the Defiant initially used it's cloak in the Alpha Quadrant without permission, violating the intelligence agreement, and Starfleet offered the Romulans that they should waive that stipulation in return for the Prometheus incident.
>Starfleet should have demanded a exemption to the "no cloaking devices" rule in the Treaty of Algeron The more the franchise goes on the more I think the 'evil admiral' was right and that Riker should have shut his mouth.
Even though this is not Alpha cannon, in the novel Resistance, it was mentioned that while the Federation could not possess the technology, through a renegotiated Treaty Of Algernon, they could, however, possess the blueprints and the components for such a device. With a Flag Officer's authorization, the blueprints are unlocked and the ship's engineer could then construct the device and install it on the ship. Worf had Admiral Janeway authorize the construction and use of a cloaking device on the Enterprise after Picard was captured by the Borg a second time. Secondly, the use of cloaking devices in the war was almost useless since the Dominion had discovered how to beat the cloaks. Without a Thaloron powersource , which was theoretical at the time, traditional cloaking devices used by the Romulans and the Klingons were not the best equipment to use.
It didn't trigger a retaliation but it sure didn't help Romulan-Federation relations. Despite being co-victors in the war, later a Reman clone of Picard would fail in attempt to annihilate Earth. Then the Romulan supernova where the Federation abandoned plans to send a relief force. Only Spock showed up to help but he disappeared into a time vortex. The Federation doesn't retaliate but they may still hold grudges.
Well we're talking about the same Federation that had a sizable contingent of flag officers supporting the assassination of a Klingon chancellor on a peace mission and similarly supporting a Klingon plot to assassinate the Federation President (not to mention framing Kirk and McCoy for Gorkon's death) on the same peace mission explicitly to ensure that the Federation and Klingon Empire remained enemies. Oh yes, the Federation holds grudges. It always has.
@@pyrioncelendil not only that but the old guard were just scared of ...no more conflict with the klingons. that's our entire way of life. so the old guard are scary.
As I'm sure others have commented, I've always thought it was a covert mission that went kind of tits-up, where-in the Romulans never planned on anyone figuring out it was them. Also, this may have been the sort of cold war thing that went on between factions of the Tal'Shiar and Section 31, a lot of unreported tit-for-tats, technology thefts, spying, etc.
I think people need to realize that the depiction of the Federation after Gene kicked the bucket is more in-line with realpolitik realities. That is, that despite the idealism, everyone has intelligence services spying and committing what would otherwise be obvious acts of war against each other simply as a matter of course. The Federation does it too. The Federation arguably does it better than most, because its public image not only ensures a certain constant of propaganda that the Federation would never engage in such behavior, there's also the public existence of StarFleet Intelligence, a known quantity both within and outside the Federation, and one generally viewed as barely competent (if that) at what it does. StarFleet Intelligence is not viewed by the other powers as a significant threat, and that's deliberate: they're the patsies who ensure that Section 31 can get shit done under everyones' radars.
I always saw a slight parallel between this incident and the 1861 Trent Affair between the USA and UK. For anyone not aware, two Confederate envoys were captured by the US Navy from a Royal Mail ship which caused a major diplomatic incident that almost resulted in war between the USA and UK. Essentially the US knuckled under and released them back to the British to avoid war. I see the Federation letting this go and accepting what I assume the Romulans claimed was a group of renegades-the Federation was too busy with the Dominion to really pursue any real response to this. Just my personal opinion. Great analysis (and skit) like always. Cheers
Lincoln masterfully played chicken with Europe and won. He knew the naval blockade of the South would upset global trade but he also knew having Europe remaining in Europe was the best option if the North was going to win.
Lincoln was a genius. The problem people hail him as some great lover of freedom because he opposed slavery when his opposition to slavery was IMO a means to gain political support more then dislike of the practice. He certainly had no problem with the suppression of peaceful dissidents with force during the war since as deporting a Union politician who was arrested solely for using his freedom of speech to speak out against the war in the presence of undercover military officers. And of course there's the time a court ruled his suspension of habeas corpus wasn't allowed by the Constitution because the section granting the right to suspend habeas corpus during rebellion is in the section concerning the authority of congress not the authority of the president. Lincoln could have appealed the ruling but instead chose to violate the ruling without appeal essentially declaring the president to be beyond the jurisdiction of the US court system.
@@roguerifter9724 Lincoln was definitely an abolitionist long before he gained anything by being one. What people don't realize is that he wasn't an extremist on the issue - he was perfectly prepared to sacrifice the slavery issue if it would keep the Union together. But it didn't, so he was able to go with both his passion to keep the country one and his preference to reduce and begin the end of slavery.
Here is the biggest problem with this whole premise. This was a Voyager episode, written by Lisa Klink, no less. There was no Ron Moore or IRA Stephen Behr to oversee how this would affect the greater Trek landscape on DS9.
The Romulan high command probably disavowed the operation as the actions of rogue officers. The fact that the bridge recorders would indicate that the Romulan commander redirected the ship to the Tal’shiar instead of the Romulan high command would support the idea that this was an “off the books” operation.
The antagonists in this episode should have been the Dominion, it would have made much more sense. But Voyager and DS9 had an agreement that the Borg belonged exclusively to Voyager and the Dominion belonged to DS9.
Well, but there were consequences for the Romulans. They lost their strike team, and, more importantly an entire D'deridex class, while 2 others were most likely damaged during the battle. I think it's safe to say that the loss of life was a lot higher on the romulan side..... I guess the Romluan government claimed it was a rouge Talshiar operation and the federation thought that the romulan losses made up for this in a way....
Yeah I was very confused in the video where LoreReloaded points out these losses, then jumps immediately into "Oh well, guess the Romulans got away with it with no consequences!" Uh...... destroyed D'Deridex and a thousand dead crew says hi!.
Plus they got shown just how impressive Starfleet ships has become. There D'deridex class was basically proven to be obsolete in this battle. Considering that class of ship seem to make up the majority of Romulans ships that would have serious consequences in any war. An from the battles we saw in DS9, the Federation kept most of there modern ships like the Intrepid and Soveigns out of the war with the Dominion and free for other tasks.
Love the implication that the events of In the Pale Moonlight were a subtle "you know what fuck those guys" to the Romulans following the Prometheus incident.
Obviously, it was the Zhat Vash who were behind the stealing of the Prometheus, as they were terrified of its automation possibly being an advanced AI. The Romulans, obviously, deny the existence of the Zhat Vash. Similarly, the Prometheus was obviously constructed by Section 31, as it was a pure warship, contravening Starfleet's design principles. The Federation, obviously, deny the existence of Section 31. The so the reason for there being no retaliation is obvious - both sides sat there, quietly twiddling the thumbs and pretending the whole incident never happened.
The Prometheus was a good example of how not to do a shared universe. At that point Star Trek had two shows running side by side without any communication between them to keep things in line. It's likely that when that episode was conceived and written, the Voyager team had no idea where the DS9 team was going with their story arcs.
I have a theory about how the Romulans were able to board Prometheus: subspace transporters. Some Trek tech they explored in an episode or two of TNG and then seemingly forgot about. It has the capability to beam through shields and can establish a transporter lock from several light years away which would make it ideal for boarding parties who want the element of surprise without a support ship tipping off the Federation crew that there were Romulans creeping about.
Looking forward to watching this!! Edit: 1 minutes in I realized I can’t yet I don’t want to spoil too much DS9 for myself! I know the basic plotline but it’s my first time through and I don’t want to see any epic scenes yet…love your content though!
@@BlackBearCrypto sisko is a shape changer with amnesia, worf is actually his own great grandfather and dax is exposed to be a gao'uld trying to take down stargate command..... just joking 😆 or am I......
The Romulans not only managed to hijack it from a Federation shipyard, but did it while wearing Romulan uniforms and weapons. Well there goes the theory that they were disguised as Vulcans and infiltrated Starfleet. So it wasn't a covert op, it was a raid. Was the tachyon detection grid down for servicing that day? And why does Starfleet have a shipyard near the Romulan border? ??
Are you seriously asking why they have a shipyard near the Romulan border? Starfleet are always worried about the Romulans turning against them. It makes sense to have strong starbases and a means to repair and replace any patrol ships that get into trouble in the region.
The UFP's core worlds and Romulus are fairly close together. Earth and the Romulan Star Empire fought a war when the fastest ship Earth had could only do a hair about Warp 5. In Beta Canon the Romulan fleet even attacks the Sol system during the war. Many major Federation worlds just happen to be within striking distance of the Neutral Zone, and you can't move the planets.
5:30 Another reason that makes a bit more sense: Romulans have Shuttlecraft that can Cloak, Maybe they just surprised the crew by transporting aboard at some point in the Prometheus journey especially if the starfleet crew was small, but crew could just as easily be transported off a ship into vacuum.
At 0:50: Finally someone makes the obvious gag about the captain having to tell the computer what the date is every time he wants to make a log entry, which has always been totally dumb.
I always thought the Prometheus event was the Tal Shiar's revenge for Vreenak. My guess is they realized it was the Federation all along and let it slide because it meant the Federation was finally playing by THEIR rules, and I think they respected that, but also couldn't let it go unanswered. As for how they got onto the ship, maybe it was another case of a Tal Shiar operative posing as Vulcan, who made it onto the crew.
I would assume that the romulans responsible were disavowed by their gov't, who are now in fed custody. And blamed on a "rogue" unit of the tal shiar. Also known as the standard response. Without any evidence saying otherwise there's not much they can do.
With how the "Rogue Unit" answer is basically the boiler plate response of the Romulans I am kind of surprised that the Federation, or heck the Klingons for that matter, haven't started a satirical propaganda campaign. Klingons certainly have enough of a grudge to not be pulling punches about how if so many units are going "rogue" it is a wonder that the Romulans maintain any cohesion.
The Romulans never knew about the events in "In the Pale Moonlight" however they were likely very familiar with the fact at some point Starfleet stopped allowing the Romulan "observer" to go in missions on the Defiant but they kept and clearly were using the cloaking device in violation of treaty.
I remember watching this episode the night it aired when I was a kid and never quite understanding just HOW the Romulans walked up and stole a starship. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was a giant plot hole never addressed or talked about ever again.
You know... I wonder about the Cardassians and how THEY got away with murder. In the episode "Ensign Ro", we learn that they try to frame Bajoran freedom fighters for the destruction of a Federation colony. How did they not earn the ire of Starfleet for that one?
I can easily see the Tal Shi'ar party having arrived at the dock the Prometheus is at in a cargo vessel or other non-warship. This would explain the lack of a Romulan escort vessel and how the Romulans snuck aboard the Prometheus - and how Starfleet knew what was going on, from interrogating the crew of the cargo ship after it failed to escape.
Imagine if at the height of the cold war, a small CIA naval armada engaged a small Soviet fleet. The Soviets were wrong but the operation is a disaster, with the destruction of most of the American force. What do you think would happen? I don't think either side would divulge anything, and they would be quiet about it. The Soviets wouldn't say anything because they were wrong and the Americans wouldn't say anything because they were humiliated. Both sides realize this and decide to go ahead with things and "forget" what happened.
One minor detail... If Section 31 had anything to do with the Reman Advances or the destruction of the Romulan Star... The thing you learn from the To-Med incident and several other events is that the Federation does not get mad.. It simply gets even.... Quietly.....
The Romulans probably used some other race that had access to the space port. Hitched a ride with no intention of returning. Or it was a crime of opportunity? A cloaked spy ship saw an opening the members of the crew took it then that ship went the other way because it's mission was still on. Better question was how the Romulans got the access codes in the first place.
I've always seen this episode as outside the normal canon - like, the Doctor beamed to an alternative universe or something. The events are just a bit to ridiculous.
The nearest I can figure is that they're acting independently from the empire they were either mercenary or Pirates, which was some of the recurring themes in Star Trek. Nero stated he was not acting on behalf of the Empire and was independent, the Ferengi that captured the Enterprise with Klingon birds of prey also said the same thing, when Riker stated they're threatening war with the Federation by capturing their ship, to some degree the Federation has done the same thing with using section 31, by claiming they don't represent the government and are an independent faction
Answer is they didn't. it was a major political incident that ratified the khitomer alliance and lead to increasing cooperation between Starfleet and the KDF, meanwhile, the Romulans wouldn't be seen again on the political stage for decades, when the Enterprise D and Picard would outwit them.
Any opinion on how the Tamarian race works? They are shown to be at a tech level equivalent to or above the federation, however it's not clear this race could have things like math, instruction manuals, etc. Heck, even just seeing what one of their control panels looks like would be amazing. How do they teach their kids words? "His arms open" means something, but the words by themselves don't? Do they have pins for their bank accounts? Their cables can't even say CAT5 can they? What does a count down for a rocket launch sound like? His fingers exposed The cat came back She had a bite of cake Darmok yelled crap .. ok I'm out Please figure this out and return back to us.
My opinion is that Starfleet could not afford a war on two fronts. Another thought that just hit me is that the Prometheus could very well be a joint Starfleet/Romulan project that the Tal Shiar caught wind of, and sent their operatives in to commandeer the prototype. I would explain why the Romulans did not have a support ship and why they seemed unopposed in taking the ship.
Since he's a bigshot ship engineer and warship designer, do you think Sisko found about the failed hijacking? Might that have factored into his decision to do what he did?
may have been a romulan cloaked troop transport which could not match Prometheus top warp speed and could not fit inside the shuttle bays, so it was either self destrust, or flow back under with a small crew under cloak
7:00 For the most part agree but how can you be sure they were killed? They had life support off (well they diverted power, not necessarily disabled it) for a few minutes and depending on where they were people can usually survive for a while unconcious in reasonable-sized rooms without air being recycled.
yeah tying stuff back into real world stuff really puts things into context and keeps it grounded. more people need to do that, and Lore should take note.
@@jamoecw art imitates life not the other way around. Thats why Hollywood has lost their minds these last couple years. They think they live in the real world and the rest of us are the art.
Making a big stink about the Prometheus incident would have been a disaster for everybody. The Federation wanted the Romulans to join the war. The Romulans knew they might and probably would need to join the war. Neither side wanted to make what would almost certainly be an awkward diplomatic event even worse than it had to be. So they kept it quiet.
I would say that the entire event was Incredibly embarrassing for both governments involved so they both pretend that it never happened in the first place. "Did you lose a powerful warship and several officers to a romulan hijacking?" Starfleet: "no, no romulans or warship was involved, it was a....... nebula survey gone wrong, yea that it!" "Did you lose a state of the art warbird and tons of troops to two holograms in said warship?" Romulans: "no, nothing happened.... it was a...... yea nebula rescue mission gone wrong!" "The same nebula?" Both: "NO MORE QUESTIONS!"
Everyone goes into detail of "why this? Why that?" But everyone forgets this is a Voyager episode And on Voyager a thing called "consequences" don't exist.
No consequences… No consequences at all. Hey it's lucky that Starfleet had the means to stop the Hobus supernova _before_ it threatened Federation territory. Just a pity The Jellyfish didn't get their sooner. … …
The Federation is fighting a losing war, they can’t afford to be making more enemies. The Romulans are currently enjoying seeing all their rivals wipe each other out, they don’t want to get dragged in until everybody is too weak. Basically both sides couldn’t afford to pick a fight and agreed to act like the Prometheus incident never happened.
For federation it is new, clasifield warship. For Romulans it is top secret Tal Shiar operation to highjack classifield warship. It is obvious that nobony know nothing. So you are right. Federation won't say anything to Romulans about this incident, since it will have to admitt publicly to a huge failure. Romulans on the same basis, will never oficially admit to the loss of a warbird, loss in enagement with federation, and failure of performing top secret operation. As far as Romulans goverment is awere, the distroyed Warbird never even existed. They perhaps make some covert deal, that highjackers were renegate group, and were executed for treason. After their failure on the mission, they are going to be executed anyway, or were simply left on the Prometheus, and never ask for. (dont remember if they survied, or EMH's killed them). So yeah. No cosecuences and bad blod from either side.
IDK, I think not perusing sanctions or even really acknowledging the incident makes perfect sense in light of the Romulans 'neutrality'. Despite the treaties with the Romulans, the Federation were in essentially a cold war with them. Giving them a casus belli while in a major conflict with the Dominion would be suicidal and they knew it. Could you bring it up later when/if you won the war against the Dominion? Sure, depending on how long it took you to recover from that war and if the citizens would put up with another major conflict so close on the heals of the Dominion War all while building up for a likely future and MAJOR conflict with the Borg.... yeah I don't see that happening either. If I were the Federation in this case I would have done the same thing. I would put all my focus into defeating the Dominion then focus on a ship building program that focused on advanced tech capable of taking on the Borg and the Romulans all while beefing up my obviously lacking ground forces and counter intelligence. Then the next time the Romulans pulled this kind of crap, pound them into the ground. You don't ever start a fight when you are on the back foot but delay and wait till you are in a position of strength. Edited for spelling
To be absolutely fair to the Romulans, who in the universe would expect two *_temporary_* medical programs to go James Bond on them? EDIT: By the way, it pleases me to tell you that I am the 666th like.
"In the pale moonlight" and "For the Uniform" set a precedents for Starfleet, or at least her officers, being fully willing to "look the other way" for the greater good. Starfleet swept the entire incident under the rug, Probably called the whole thing a training operation. The Romulans erased the event from their records, everyone "wins"
Before I watch this I have a counter. You ask how did the Romulans get away with this? I ask who says they did, between the Remen insurrection and the fact Vulcan not Starfleet tried to save them from a Nova. I say Starfleet doesn't forget
Personally I think that supernova was galactic karma for them CONSTANTLY pulling this shit on a government they knew genuinely had no I'll will towards them.
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you're welcome and thank you
i'm confused, but there you go anyway
OH I GET IT!!!!!!!
You're a genius! What an elegant solution to such a stupid problem! This needs to be adopted across TH-cam!
The script writers wrote it that way. Glad to help let me know if you need any more detailed analysis in the realm of make believe.
@@undefined7141 you don’t understand how contextual criticism works when looking at the universe as a constant :/ how sad
Federation: Did you lose a warbird near here?
Romulans: No. Why, did you destroy one?
Federation: No.
Romulans: Ok then.
Federation: Ok.
🥲😂
"Stop breathing down my neck!"
"My breathing is merely a simulation."
"So is my neck, stop it anyway!"
“They think they’re romulans on board!”
“They’re Right!”
You hit the wrong ship!
It’s not my fault
Then who’s fault is it, the torpedo’s?!?!
@@LoreReloaded We are CERTAIN it wasn't Kirk again ... RIGHT?!?
Wish there was a scene where someone from Starfleet security went into Starfleet command to give a report to an admiral. Explain it had already been recaptured by Starfleet before we caught up with the Prometheus. That it was re-commandeered by EMHs. The admiral asks how as the EMH mk2 is programmed to deactivate itself. Then the security officer explains another EMH transferred onboard. The Admiral asks from where. Only to be told that it was from the USS Voyager. The camera turns down to the admirals desk and we see a picture of Tom there.
I think it would be a good introduction to Admiral Paris.
Love this!
I interpreted the diplomatic responses afterwards to go something along the lines of:
“What the hell does starfleet think it’s doing! You attacked two warbirds and killed dozens of romulans!”
“Yes.”
“…so you admit it?”
“Freely. In fact, go ahead and publicize to the entire quadrant that while we’re already engaged in a full scale war, you tried to stab us in the back, violate your neutrality, and that our warship managed to single handedly annihilate your most powerful warships.”
“…”
“No? Good. Starfleet doesn’t need more enemies right now, but if you fuck with us, we will be *happy* to accommodate you. Stay on your side of the goddamn line.”
Haha, I love it.
The Federation really should play hardball like that more often. Their devotion to playing nice seems to lead them to disaster an awful lot.
@@tba113 Honestly, starfleet playing hardball is so much more satisfying *because* they're nice. Like, having The Imperium of Man or the Galactic empire orbitally bombard someone is fun to watch, but you *expect* that from them.
It's so much more satisfying with the federation because you know starfleet plays nice first. They send the diplomats, and ambassadors, and scientists to find a nice, mutually beneficial solution first.
So when Starfleet breaks out the brass knuckles, it's *so* much better because you know the guy getting smacked down *deserves* it.
@@korben600 Exactly. When the Federation serves you your own ass on a plate, it's probably because you were asking for it. I can easily see someone like Ross matter-of-factly putting some stuck-up Romulan attack dog back in his place with the speech you wrote. And one of his aides saying "You almost enjoyed that."
The Federations greatest strength is it’s diversity. People dealing with them never know what’s going to come up. Diplomat or warrior, explorer or scientist. Heck most of the time they don’t know if they’re going to get a Logical Vulcan, passionate Andorian, stubborn tellerite or batshit crazy human. Other races HATE going up against the Feds because they have a nigh infinite bag of unpredictable tricks.
@@mattwho81 it’s like Deadpool’s fanny pack
Actually I would say it makes sense why Prometheus was built near the Romulan border. The Romulans have a non aggression pact with the Dominion and it's unlikely that the dominion would be travelling through Romulan space without reason. So I would think this would provide a buffer of safety for the Federation.
in DS9 it was stated the the Dominion traveled through Romulan space regularly to conduct raids against the Federation. it was one of the issues that the Federation didn't like about the Romulan neutrality.
That's an interesting opinion, it's wrong, but interesting.
@@jamoecw yup fair, I forgot this detail and you are correct
One of the many reasons I loath that god awful map of the Galaxy
Romulans: Detect an unknown UFP vessel near their borders.
Also Romulans: Send elite operatives to capture the vessel instead of confronting Starfleet about it.
The operatives: Get out played by 2 EMH holograms.
@AchSoSensationell Yeah sometimes even a brainy franchise like Trek needs to just turn off the ol' supercomputer.
Losing to Robert Picardo was one thing but losing to Andy Dick was too much of an embarrassment for the Romulans.
Quick note on timeline:
"Message in a Bottle": stardate 51462, is closest to DS9's "One Little Ship" stardate 51474.2
12.2 stardate paces, at the generally observed 1000 or so stardates per Earth year during the TNG era, would place it a little under 4 and a half days before the DS9 Episode.
The previous DS9 episode with a stardate for reference seems to be Waltz, at stardate 51408.6, placing those events 65.6 stardates before Voyager's episode, or roughly 24 days before.
In the Pale moonlight, the "it's only been two weeks" narration, happens on 51721.3, 259.3 stardate paces after, roughly 95 days after.
So in universe: the Romulans went from killing a Starfleet crew to steal an experimental ship, to joining the fight along side of Starfleet in about 3 months.
if the 1000 stardates per Earth year work out
Given that Romulans are not only calculating but also opportunistic and considerable, when conftonted with new situations, this would not even be a contradiction. Besides Tal'Shiar allways needs to keep taps on their closest enemies.
You could say the UFP said we'd forget about it if you join the war after 3 months of thinking about it they agreed
I think of the relationship between the Federation and the Romulans as analogous to that of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union during World War II. They got along to defeat the immediate threat at hand but both sides knew it was only an alliance of convience. The Soviets did some very unfriendly things to the Western Allies during the war which often went overlooked for convince.
"The Romulans just got away with it, with no consequences." Well, I mean, as you said, *if* they had gotten away with it. And they lost an entire Warbird and crew. Aside from the poll noting that it almost certainly was a "rogue event" disavowed by the Romulans, seeing as the attempt failed, knowing Starfleets M.O. and considering the stakes of the Dominion War, I imagine they just kinda gave them the interstellar diplomatic equivalent of a look saying "we both know what you *tried* and failed to do, watch your arse."
Similar to the end of the TNG episode "The Wounded" with the Cardasians. No official action was taken, but there were definitely consequences.
Yeah. In this case, it'd be enough to send them on their way with "Take that mess of a face home to Romulus, and remember who bloodied it. Think about it next time you consider knocking on our door with a disruptor in hand."
"thankfully I transformed this rock into a communicator" gold
I thought those famed starfleet officers turned rocks into “replicators”
- Keevan
How? Why? And even more importantly, how?
British owned France was pretty funny too
Data: It is a crystalline composite of silicon, beryllium, carbon-70 and-
Poker player: Gold.
Data: Gold.
@@joeclaridy
"Why?"
The starfleet officer- "Why not?"
It was stated in DS9 that the Dominion had been regularly violating the neutral zone to attack federation assets, it makes a bit of a sense that the Prometheus would be deployed in that area for testing. It's far away from the front lines so the Dominion wont steal it, but it's still got dominion targets to go after to test its capabilities. It's likely the Romulans saw this mysterious ship on long range sensors (We know they can scan past the neutral zone border into fed space, either by long range sensors or just using Cloaked warbirds in the zone) It's likely that a cloaked warbird encountered the Prometheus with its shields down (Not expecting cloaked dominion ships, maybe it was in a 'safer' area so they weren't at alert or anything. And the Romulans beamed over from a cloaked warbird before the Prometheus was aware it was there. It's also possible that they chased a dominion ship into the neutral zone, violated it, then left after it was destroyed, and a cloaked warbird shadowed it back to the shipyard where it then stole it while it was being repaired after that battle. My bigger question is why would a ship so secret and powerful not have some kind of bridge lockout, or a bio sensor that locks Romulans out of the computer considering you're that close to the Neutral Zone.
You would think there would have been some kind of code like Wrath of Khan that would have disabled the ship and then the crew of that Nebula class could have just ended the problem then and there...
maybe the process of making the ship was rushed cuz they were fighting a war and certain things were overlooked like built in safety systems against non federation take overs
@@MrCrystalm8 Security would be the main thing they would focus on, that and weapons/defense, it would be things like holodecks, crew amenities, and aux systems that would get overlooked.
@@MrCrystalm8 The ship was testing an entirely new level of ship separation and had a number of new technologies, security would be the first thing they'd work on.
@@RebornV3 Yeah that's a Sci Fi trope that I'd really like to know if it has any basis in reality.
It sounds absolutely absurd to me to build in that kind of weakness into a military ship.
If someone stole the codes they could wipe out your whole fleet with a flick of a button.
Do any real navies have guillotine codes?
I would hardly call losing the strike team and a D'Deridex warship to be "getting away with it". As for not making a bigger stink, I think you're right that the Federation didn't want to push the Romulans closer to joining the Dominion. But, it's entirely possible that Section 31 responded in some fashion...
do you think starfleet was hiding the uss prometheus from Sisko like reason why the prometheus was being tested so close to romulan space was that was far as they could from Sisko. That is also the reason why the romulans did'nt say anything was the fear that if Sisko learned about the prometheus he'd want it he'd get it and end the war by the end of the week.
Starfleet should have demanded a exemption to the "no cloaking devices" rule in the Treaty of Algeron, at least for the duration of the Dominion war. Starfleet could have used Klingon cloaks because of course Starfleet have no cloaks of their own lying around…
However that might explain the sudden loophole that the Defiant had about _using its cloak in the Alpha Quadrant_ - that was compensation for the Prometheus attempt. But if that's the case, Starfleet should have called for more. That was selling itself cheap.
Perhaps the Defiant initially used it's cloak in the Alpha Quadrant without permission, violating the intelligence agreement, and Starfleet offered the Romulans that they should waive that stipulation in return for the Prometheus incident.
>Starfleet should have demanded a exemption to the "no cloaking devices" rule in the Treaty of Algeron
The more the franchise goes on the more I think the 'evil admiral' was right and that Riker should have shut his mouth.
Even though this is not Alpha cannon, in the novel Resistance, it was mentioned that while the Federation could not possess the technology, through a renegotiated Treaty Of Algernon, they could, however, possess the blueprints and the components for such a device. With a Flag Officer's authorization, the blueprints are unlocked and the ship's engineer could then construct the device and install it on the ship. Worf had Admiral Janeway authorize the construction and use of a cloaking device on the Enterprise after Picard was captured by the Borg a second time.
Secondly, the use of cloaking devices in the war was almost useless since the Dominion had discovered how to beat the cloaks. Without a Thaloron powersource , which was theoretical at the time, traditional cloaking devices used by the Romulans and the Klingons were not the best equipment to use.
Roddenberry's white knights of Star Trek don't skulk around in the shadows. That's for the villains.
@@Warmaker01 *entering a battlefield in neon orange colors* "Stealth is for the dishonorable!" *is sniped*
It didn't trigger a retaliation but it sure didn't help Romulan-Federation relations. Despite being co-victors in the war, later a Reman clone of Picard would fail in attempt to annihilate Earth. Then the Romulan supernova where the Federation abandoned plans to send a relief force. Only Spock showed up to help but he disappeared into a time vortex.
The Federation doesn't retaliate but they may still hold grudges.
not may feds definitely hold grudges.
Well we're talking about the same Federation that had a sizable contingent of flag officers supporting the assassination of a Klingon chancellor on a peace mission and similarly supporting a Klingon plot to assassinate the Federation President (not to mention framing Kirk and McCoy for Gorkon's death) on the same peace mission explicitly to ensure that the Federation and Klingon Empire remained enemies. Oh yes, the Federation holds grudges. It always has.
@@pyrioncelendil not only that but the old guard were just scared of ...no more conflict with the klingons. that's our entire way of life. so the old guard are scary.
As I'm sure others have commented, I've always thought it was a covert mission that went kind of tits-up, where-in the Romulans never planned on anyone figuring out it was them. Also, this may have been the sort of cold war thing that went on between factions of the Tal'Shiar and Section 31, a lot of unreported tit-for-tats, technology thefts, spying, etc.
I think people need to realize that the depiction of the Federation after Gene kicked the bucket is more in-line with realpolitik realities. That is, that despite the idealism, everyone has intelligence services spying and committing what would otherwise be obvious acts of war against each other simply as a matter of course. The Federation does it too. The Federation arguably does it better than most, because its public image not only ensures a certain constant of propaganda that the Federation would never engage in such behavior, there's also the public existence of StarFleet Intelligence, a known quantity both within and outside the Federation, and one generally viewed as barely competent (if that) at what it does. StarFleet Intelligence is not viewed by the other powers as a significant threat, and that's deliberate: they're the patsies who ensure that Section 31 can get shit done under everyones' radars.
In TOS the Enterprise stole a Romulan cloaking device.
I always saw a slight parallel between this incident and the 1861 Trent Affair between the USA and UK. For anyone not aware, two Confederate envoys were captured by the US Navy from a Royal Mail ship which caused a major diplomatic incident that almost resulted in war between the USA and UK. Essentially the US knuckled under and released them back to the British to avoid war.
I see the Federation letting this go and accepting what I assume the Romulans claimed was a group of renegades-the Federation was too busy with the Dominion to really pursue any real response to this. Just my personal opinion. Great analysis (and skit) like always.
Cheers
Lincoln masterfully played chicken with Europe and won. He knew the naval blockade of the South would upset global trade but he also knew having Europe remaining in Europe was the best option if the North was going to win.
@@joeclaridy Lincoln’s foreign policy is very underrated during his managing of the American Civil War
That's pretty clever.
Lincoln was a genius. The problem people hail him as some great lover of freedom because he opposed slavery when his opposition to slavery was IMO a means to gain political support more then dislike of the practice.
He certainly had no problem with the suppression of peaceful dissidents with force during the war since as deporting a Union politician who was arrested solely for using his freedom of speech to speak out against the war in the presence of undercover military officers. And of course there's the time a court ruled his suspension of habeas corpus wasn't allowed by the Constitution because the section granting the right to suspend habeas corpus during rebellion is in the section concerning the authority of congress not the authority of the president. Lincoln could have appealed the ruling but instead chose to violate the ruling without appeal essentially declaring the president to be beyond the jurisdiction of the US court system.
@@roguerifter9724 Lincoln was definitely an abolitionist long before he gained anything by being one. What people don't realize is that he wasn't an extremist on the issue - he was perfectly prepared to sacrifice the slavery issue if it would keep the Union together. But it didn't, so he was able to go with both his passion to keep the country one and his preference to reduce and begin the end of slavery.
Here is the biggest problem with this whole premise. This was a Voyager episode, written by Lisa Klink, no less. There was no Ron Moore or IRA Stephen Behr to oversee how this would affect the greater Trek landscape on DS9.
The Romulan high command probably disavowed the operation as the actions of rogue officers. The fact that the bridge recorders would indicate that the Romulan commander redirected the ship to the Tal’shiar instead of the Romulan high command would support the idea that this was an “off the books” operation.
Loved this video and the ad read was so awesome. Thanks for creating great videos!
Lore everytime you put out a Star Trek video I find it harder and harder to root for the Federation.
The antagonists in this episode should have been the Dominion, it would have made much more sense. But Voyager and DS9 had an agreement that the Borg belonged exclusively to Voyager and the Dominion belonged to DS9.
Well, but there were consequences for the Romulans. They lost their strike team, and, more importantly an entire D'deridex class, while 2 others were most likely damaged during the battle. I think it's safe to say that the loss of life was a lot higher on the romulan side.....
I guess the Romluan government claimed it was a rouge Talshiar operation and the federation thought that the romulan losses made up for this in a way....
Yeah I was very confused in the video where LoreReloaded points out these losses, then jumps immediately into "Oh well, guess the Romulans got away with it with no consequences!" Uh...... destroyed D'Deridex and a thousand dead crew says hi!.
Plus they got shown just how impressive Starfleet ships has become. There D'deridex class was basically proven to be obsolete in this battle. Considering that class of ship seem to make up the majority of Romulans ships that would have serious consequences in any war. An from the battles we saw in DS9, the Federation kept most of there modern ships like the Intrepid and Soveigns out of the war with the Dominion and free for other tasks.
Ok great video as usual! but I really got a kick out of the sponsored section too! I wish all creators would integrate like that haha.
This is awesome! I asked this in the last video and now there's a whole video!
Love the implication that the events of In the Pale Moonlight were a subtle "you know what fuck those guys" to the Romulans following the Prometheus incident.
I agree
Obviously, it was the Zhat Vash who were behind the stealing of the Prometheus, as they were terrified of its automation possibly being an advanced AI. The Romulans, obviously, deny the existence of the Zhat Vash.
Similarly, the Prometheus was obviously constructed by Section 31, as it was a pure warship, contravening Starfleet's design principles. The Federation, obviously, deny the existence of Section 31.
The so the reason for there being no retaliation is obvious - both sides sat there, quietly twiddling the thumbs and pretending the whole incident never happened.
That..that makes more sense than all of Picard..
Battletech is blowing up, need more Battletech content again! Bring Sie Urbie!
I chalk this up to the Voyager writers have no idea what's going on in DS9
The Prometheus was a good example of how not to do a shared universe. At that point Star Trek had two shows running side by side without any communication between them to keep things in line. It's likely that when that episode was conceived and written, the Voyager team had no idea where the DS9 team was going with their story arcs.
I do not recognize this event and would really like to watch it now. Which series, season and episode number is it? Thank you very much!
Star Trek voyager - message in a bottle
Once again the day is saved, by, The Doctor!!!
Dr Who fans stand confused…
I have a theory about how the Romulans were able to board Prometheus: subspace transporters. Some Trek tech they explored in an episode or two of TNG and then seemingly forgot about. It has the capability to beam through shields and can establish a transporter lock from several light years away which would make it ideal for boarding parties who want the element of surprise without a support ship tipping off the Federation crew that there were Romulans creeping about.
I think there's a typo in the title, maybe I'm just reading wrong. Also great video man hope to see another soon.
it's been fixed
Magic Spoon: the only cereal so expensive that they have to break down the price per bowl to distract you from the $10/box price tag.
Looking forward to watching this!!
Edit: 1 minutes in I realized I can’t yet I don’t want to spoil too much DS9 for myself! I know the basic plotline but it’s my first time through and I don’t want to see any epic scenes yet…love your content though!
Oh yea, don’t watch then
Sorry :/
Lore Reloaded no worries! putting it on watch later 😉
@@BlackBearCrypto sisko is a shape changer with amnesia, worf is actually his own great grandfather and dax is exposed to be a gao'uld trying to take down stargate command.....
just joking 😆
or am I......
@@BlackBearCrypto Its been 22 years Bear, just watch the video. Worst case scenario you'll find yourself inexplicably craving breakfast cereal
The answers simple, I‘ll explain using a metaphor:
You see your boss stealing out off the companies bank account.
„Quick! Tell the bo.. ohhh.“
The Romulans not only managed to hijack it from a Federation shipyard, but did it while wearing Romulan uniforms and weapons.
Well there goes the theory that they were disguised as Vulcans and infiltrated Starfleet.
So it wasn't a covert op, it was a raid. Was the tachyon detection grid down for servicing that day?
And why does Starfleet have a shipyard near the Romulan border? ??
Are you seriously asking why they have a shipyard near the Romulan border? Starfleet are always worried about the Romulans turning against them. It makes sense to have strong starbases and a means to repair and replace any patrol ships that get into trouble in the region.
@@ZoeMalDoran Having heavily protected support facilities nearby makes sense, having a full shipyard building experimental prototypes does not.
The UFP's core worlds and Romulus are fairly close together. Earth and the Romulan Star Empire fought a war when the fastest ship Earth had could only do a hair about Warp 5. In Beta Canon the Romulan fleet even attacks the Sol system during the war. Many major Federation worlds just happen to be within striking distance of the Neutral Zone, and you can't move the planets.
5:30 Another reason that makes a bit more sense: Romulans have Shuttlecraft that can Cloak, Maybe they just surprised the crew by transporting aboard at some point in the Prometheus journey especially if the starfleet crew was small, but crew could just as easily be transported off a ship into vacuum.
At 0:50: Finally someone makes the obvious gag about the captain having to tell the computer what the date is every time he wants to make a log entry, which has always been totally dumb.
I always thought the Prometheus event was the Tal Shiar's revenge for Vreenak. My guess is they realized it was the Federation all along and let it slide because it meant the Federation was finally playing by THEIR rules, and I think they respected that, but also couldn't let it go unanswered. As for how they got onto the ship, maybe it was another case of a Tal Shiar operative posing as Vulcan, who made it onto the crew.
I would assume that the romulans responsible were disavowed by their gov't, who are now in fed custody. And blamed on a "rogue" unit of the tal shiar. Also known as the standard response. Without any evidence saying otherwise there's not much they can do.
With how the "Rogue Unit" answer is basically the boiler plate response of the Romulans I am kind of surprised that the Federation, or heck the Klingons for that matter, haven't started a satirical propaganda campaign. Klingons certainly have enough of a grudge to not be pulling punches about how if so many units are going "rogue" it is a wonder that the Romulans maintain any cohesion.
@@tarrisfairbroke6899 Well the Federation and Klingons have had problems with rogue operations in the past as well.
The Romulans never knew about the events in "In the Pale Moonlight" however they were likely very familiar with the fact at some point Starfleet stopped allowing the Romulan "observer" to go in missions on the Defiant but they kept and clearly were using the cloaking device in violation of treaty.
I remember watching this episode the night it aired when I was a kid and never quite understanding just HOW the Romulans walked up and stole a starship. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was a giant plot hole never addressed or talked about ever again.
You know... I wonder about the Cardassians and how THEY got away with murder. In the episode "Ensign Ro", we learn that they try to frame Bajoran freedom fighters for the destruction of a Federation colony. How did they not earn the ire of Starfleet for that one?
They probably thought it was even enough, half dozen dead Starfleet officers in exchange for an entire crew of dead Romulans seems like a bargain.
Just out of curiosity did my comment on the Prometheus video about the "Message in a Bottle" and "Pale Moonlight" inspire this video?
I can easily see the Tal Shi'ar party having arrived at the dock the Prometheus is at in a cargo vessel or other non-warship. This would explain the lack of a Romulan escort vessel and how the Romulans snuck aboard the Prometheus - and how Starfleet knew what was going on, from interrogating the crew of the cargo ship after it failed to escape.
More likely a cloaked shuttle. which could have been left behind, destroyed or parked in the Prrometheus shuttle bay.
@@hughdahand5711 Fair point.
Imagine if at the height of the cold war, a small CIA naval armada engaged a small Soviet fleet. The Soviets were wrong but the operation is a disaster, with the destruction of most of the American force. What do you think would happen? I don't think either side would divulge anything, and they would be quiet about it. The Soviets wouldn't say anything because they were wrong and the Americans wouldn't say anything because they were humiliated. Both sides realize this and decide to go ahead with things and "forget" what happened.
a Stern lecture from star fleet and unknown deaths from s31
One minor detail... If Section 31 had anything to do with the Reman Advances or the destruction of the Romulan Star... The thing you learn from the To-Med incident and several other events is that the Federation does not get mad.. It simply gets even.... Quietly.....
I like the RvB vibes in the ad copy lol
The Romulans probably used some other race that had access to the space port. Hitched a ride with no intention of returning. Or it was a crime of opportunity? A cloaked spy ship saw an opening the members of the crew took it then that ship went the other way because it's mission was still on. Better question was how the Romulans got the access codes in the first place.
Not just the officers. I'm sure there would have been a number of NCOs on board to facilitate whatever testing and development of the Prometheus.
I've always seen this episode as outside the normal canon - like, the Doctor beamed to an alternative universe or something. The events are just a bit to ridiculous.
The nearest I can figure is that they're acting independently from the empire they were either mercenary or Pirates, which was some of the recurring themes in Star Trek. Nero stated he was not acting on behalf of the Empire and was independent, the Ferengi that captured the Enterprise with Klingon birds of prey also said the same thing, when Riker stated they're threatening war with the Federation by capturing their ship, to some degree the Federation has done the same thing with using section 31, by claiming they don't represent the government and are an independent faction
Is there a video like this for the Enterprise C? How did the Romulans get away with that?
Answer is they didn't. it was a major political incident that ratified the khitomer alliance and lead to increasing cooperation between Starfleet and the KDF, meanwhile, the Romulans wouldn't be seen again on the political stage for decades, when the Enterprise D and Picard would outwit them.
Any opinion on how the Tamarian race works? They are shown to be at a tech level equivalent to or above the federation, however it's not clear this race could have things like math, instruction manuals, etc. Heck, even just seeing what one of their control panels looks like would be amazing. How do they teach their kids words? "His arms open" means something, but the words by themselves don't? Do they have pins for their bank accounts? Their cables can't even say CAT5 can they?
What does a count down for a rocket launch sound like?
His fingers exposed
The cat came back
She had a bite of cake
Darmok yelled crap
.. ok I'm out
Please figure this out and return back to us.
My opinion is that Starfleet could not afford a war on two fronts.
Another thought that just hit me is that the Prometheus could very well be a joint Starfleet/Romulan project that the Tal Shiar caught wind of, and sent their operatives in to commandeer the prototype. I would explain why the Romulans did not have a support ship and why they seemed unopposed in taking the ship.
No consequences
Looking the other way
Clean slate
Let bygones be bygones
(Seeing Sisko smirking)
Yup!
Since he's a bigshot ship engineer and warship designer, do you think Sisko found about the failed hijacking? Might that have factored into his decision to do what he did?
The Romulans claimed it was a peaceful protest.
may have been a romulan cloaked troop transport which could not match Prometheus top warp speed and could not fit inside the shuttle bays, so it was either self destrust, or flow back under with a small crew under cloak
You adjusted the title - it didn't quite make sense with the original! 😄
Khan taught Commander Joachim well.
7:00 For the most part agree but how can you be sure they were killed? They had life support off (well they diverted power, not necessarily disabled it) for a few minutes and depending on where they were people can usually survive for a while unconcious in reasonable-sized rooms without air being recycled.
Japan bombed the “Panay” almost a year before pearl. They got away with that too.
yeah tying stuff back into real world stuff really puts things into context and keeps it grounded. more people need to do that, and Lore should take note.
@@jamoecw art imitates life not the other way around. Thats why Hollywood has lost their minds these last couple years. They think they live in the real world and the rest of us are the art.
Making a big stink about the Prometheus incident would have been a disaster for everybody. The Federation wanted the Romulans to join the war. The Romulans knew they might and probably would need to join the war. Neither side wanted to make what would almost certainly be an awkward diplomatic event even worse than it had to be. So they kept it quiet.
Voyager was probably not allowed to use the Dominion for some reason, which would've made much more sense for this narrative.
I would say that the entire event was Incredibly embarrassing for both governments involved so they both pretend that it never happened in the first place.
"Did you lose a powerful warship and several officers to a romulan hijacking?"
Starfleet: "no, no romulans or warship was involved, it was a....... nebula survey gone wrong, yea that it!"
"Did you lose a state of the art warbird and tons of troops to two holograms in said warship?"
Romulans: "no, nothing happened.... it was a...... yea nebula rescue mission gone wrong!"
"The same nebula?"
Both: "NO MORE QUESTIONS!"
Here's an idea: How would Kirk Era Federation have dealt with the Borg/Dominion? That was a proper Military Starfleet.
0:32 this would be me almost every damn day.
Yes, keeping the Romulans neutral was the "greater good", and them losing a warbird can be considered punishment/deterrence on its own.
I'm so glad the 8th reboot of MacGyver is still happening in the 24th century.
I laughed quite loudly at the end there... Yup!
At the Tomed Incident 2311, the Romulans slaughtered 7000 Starfleet officers.
Why do they always say the date in the captain's log? Surely the date would be automatically recorded anyway...
Don't worry... the Alpha Quadrant got the last laugh when Romulus got blown upon
Everyone goes into detail of "why this? Why that?" But everyone forgets this is a Voyager episode
And on Voyager a thing called "consequences" don't exist.
Why is there a Tal Shiar uniform?
No wonder you are stuck on the planet. If you were a true Star Fleet Engineer you'd have turned that stone in to a replicator.
Great line!!!
I mean how many ships and people did Tom Riker kill when he stole the defiant?
No consequences…
No consequences at all.
Hey it's lucky that Starfleet had the means to stop the Hobus supernova _before_ it threatened Federation territory.
Just a pity The Jellyfish didn't get their sooner. … …
The real reason is bad writing and the writers not thinking that far ahead to write a story that made sense in context
The Federation was busy with the Dominion. Also the Romulans took one look at the battle and decided war with Federation wouldn't end well.
Make a video on why bishops are uncommon in the Federation!
The Federation is fighting a losing war, they can’t afford to be making more enemies. The Romulans are currently enjoying seeing all their rivals wipe each other out, they don’t want to get dragged in until everybody is too weak. Basically both sides couldn’t afford to pick a fight and agreed to act like the Prometheus incident never happened.
Did the holograms kill the Romulans? I remember the one ship getting destroyed but I don't recall them killing the Romulans on board.
They turned off life support … the romulans on board died a very slow death indeed
If you consider that Chairman Koval might be working with Section 31 at this point in time, this could get really weird in theory.
For federation it is new, clasifield warship. For Romulans it is top secret Tal Shiar operation to highjack classifield warship. It is obvious that nobony know nothing.
So you are right. Federation won't say anything to Romulans about this incident, since it will have to admitt publicly to a huge failure.
Romulans on the same basis, will never oficially admit to the loss of a warbird, loss in enagement with federation, and failure of performing top secret operation.
As far as Romulans goverment is awere, the distroyed Warbird never even existed. They perhaps make some covert deal, that highjackers were renegate group, and were executed for treason. After their failure on the mission, they are going to be executed anyway, or were simply left on the Prometheus, and never ask for. (dont remember if they survied, or EMH's killed them). So yeah. No cosecuences and bad blod from either side.
no one ever declared war over a lost ship and a few dead crewmen...oh wait. (US-VIetnam, japan - china)
I think the more important question is how they got ahold of the ship in the 1st place.
IDK, I think not perusing sanctions or even really acknowledging the incident makes perfect sense in light of the Romulans 'neutrality'. Despite the treaties with the Romulans, the Federation were in essentially a cold war with them. Giving them a casus belli while in a major conflict with the Dominion would be suicidal and they knew it. Could you bring it up later when/if you won the war against the Dominion? Sure, depending on how long it took you to recover from that war and if the citizens would put up with another major conflict so close on the heals of the Dominion War all while building up for a likely future and MAJOR conflict with the Borg.... yeah I don't see that happening either. If I were the Federation in this case I would have done the same thing. I would put all my focus into defeating the Dominion then focus on a ship building program that focused on advanced tech capable of taking on the Borg and the Romulans all while beefing up my obviously lacking ground forces and counter intelligence. Then the next time the Romulans pulled this kind of crap, pound them into the ground. You don't ever start a fight when you are on the back foot but delay and wait till you are in a position of strength.
Edited for spelling
Not going to lie, that was a great ad.
To be absolutely fair to the Romulans, who in the universe would expect two *_temporary_* medical programs to go James Bond on them?
EDIT: By the way, it pleases me to tell you that I am the 666th like.
"In the pale moonlight" and "For the Uniform" set a precedents for Starfleet, or at least her officers, being fully willing to "look the other way" for the greater good.
Starfleet swept the entire incident under the rug, Probably called the whole thing a training operation. The Romulans erased the event from their records, everyone "wins"
Well the romulans lost the team that stole it, plus a cruiser, so maybe they called it even
Before I watch this I have a counter. You ask how did the Romulans get away with this? I ask who says they did, between the Remen insurrection and the fact Vulcan not Starfleet tried to save them from a Nova. I say Starfleet doesn't forget
Personally I think that supernova was galactic karma for them CONSTANTLY pulling this shit on a government they knew genuinely had no I'll will towards them.
"With no consequences" 🤣🤣🤣🤣 love it