EV Charging Installation Dilemmas... Electrician Life
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2020
- EV Charging Installation Dilemmas... Electrician Life
In this video I face a difficult dilemma as I install an Electric Vehicle Charging Point to an old house with bad electrics...
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#EVCharging #ArtisanElectrics #ElectricianLife - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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I've got the tp3b for my hand tools which has overtaken my velocity rogue 5.0 bavk pack as my everyday tool bag
It's unbelievable that many customers will spend thousands on holidays, cars, whatever, yet when it comes to upgrades they all seem to put it off for another day. Its kind of " well everything has worked ok for years like that so why bother? " An attitude we come across from time to time.
Excellent video as usual.
To me that's just crazy - you're spending £40k on a car (a depreciating asset) but won't invest £10k on your house to make it safe and increase its value...
The other 2 ' consumer units' are not consumer units, they are called 'Switch fuses' .
It must be safe, whatever customer wants as long as its safe and pays for it.
It’s straightforward, shouldn’t waste time fretting about it. Second DB, ensure main bonding and install EV. Customer might want a new DB but has no idea what can and can’t be done. As the professional it’s up to you to guide him which you have done. Good job 👍
You did the right thing, new DB, bonding sorted, nice install, not taking responsibility for the rest of the property. Also good that you future proofed for the DB upgrade with a large board
Hmmm
Bonding has to be within 600mm from the outlet and or before any T connection..
Here the gentleman fitted it after the T.
You did right thing given the situation. You made everything safe as you can and put in a board big enough to accommodate a rewire in the future and saving him a bit of money down the road. Hopefully the customer decides to do a rewire sooner rather then later. And you will likely get the job since you've done right this time around.
Great video, as usual Jordan. A couple of points: (a) it is normally better to angle any holes through the wall slightly upwards, so that any rainwater won't flow into the house ( I know you siliconed it, but it's still better to let gravity help you!) (b) I always worry a bit when modifying bonding etc, in case a fault were to develop, perhaps in the incoming supply, so that for a short while, different earth wires were at different potential. Then if you have one hand on one earth conductor and the other on a different earth conductor, you might get a belt, or worse. In can be enlightening to measure the voltage between earth conductors after you have just separated them!
good tips. thanks.
Was going to say the same thing about the hole - learned that one from a DNO fitter. Not only does it help prevent water ingress, but it also makes the cables sit nicer on rising feeds.
Difficult one with the right solution in the end. As demand increases this going to become a very common problem so discrete installation is best approach unless it’s seen as an opp for additional work
Realistically the 6mm bonding on a tns supply is fine . It’s only a code C3 on tncs if it has no signs of thermal damage . But personally I’d probably upgrade my self if it’s possible.
As you you do more of the EV installs, this will become common place. Recommending the customer updates Consumer unit and or wiring at a later date as you'd be inclined to do more work that some customers will expect as part of the EV install?
Excellent job, I agree with everything you’ve done. I would have upgraded the bonds as well as new install. The client has EICR, so he knows the risks involved. In old installs where there are quite a few problems, such as that one, it is written within the quotation that if the client goes down the repair route, there is always an element of risk of what you may uncover & the client would still have to pay regardless of the outcome. An example, property has all accessories replaced, sorting out loose connections, & open ring conductors, new consumer unit fitted, only to discover once the consumer was fitted that the return path (neutral) for some of the downstairs lights was through a ring final circuit.
Question. What voltage tester do you use and correct size masonry bit to drill into brickwork for 2.5 ruzzie. Thanks
Good job! From a sparky in NZ. I totally understand your feelings at the end of the day...
having your channel not only helps teach others but also helps to grow your business as people can recommend you and your subscribers can be your customers just like this one .
Tough one that - I think that you probably took the right approach in doing the bonding and new CU, but my personal view is that given the age and condition of the rest of the installation I would not be willing to undertake further work without a significant rewire & that would be made clear on all paperwork that I issued. Swapping switches and fittings for Class II is a bodge that I would only ever be acceptable (in my opinion) as an interim/emergency measure pending the rewire. The customer may not want the disruption or cost of the rewire, but it beats the hell out of someone getting seriously injured or a fire happening.
Tip for the tp4b, your electricians hammer will fit through the leather bit at the top, across the bag, giving you an extra pocket on the main part. I do this on my tp5b and it keeps it well out the way til i need it and doesn't get in the way of the handle
Great to see you made it safe as you can. Old electric installations are a pain to upgrade though mostly dangerous when drawing modern power consumption. You should have given him a volt stick to check any metal fixings before touching them. 😉
cheechU38K not a good idea considering they are not 100% accurate asking for a lawsuit there
Whenever I drill for wall anchors / plugs ( whatever is called locally) I usually have a can of compressed air to clean the hole from whatever remained in the drilling. Makes for a better joint.
I use a vacuum!
Think I would have chucked the shower in the new board too for what it is and gotten rid of that mini fuse board. Other than that, not worth doing much more.
Did you get an answer on the double pole protective device needed for the zappi?
I would go ahead and fit a separate board for the EV charger under those circumstances. Recommend to the customer an EICR for the main installation, and also mention this in your test sheets to keep yourself right.
Good video .
Do you have a video of where you connect the mcbs with the wires. I always have trouble routing the cables to bend and fit neatly like you do.
Are the Hager boxes the best? Ive got a 17th edition which is plastic and the surronds all broke. I was just wondering which are the best boxes to use?
I always do EICR 's before a board change for this exact reason and there are always issues that need to be resolved before the CU can be upgraded. I honestly don't understand how any decent spark can do a board change before an EICR.
You totally made the right decision, you couldn't do a board change when you know there are dangerous issues. If the customer got a fatal electric shock off a metal light switch even years down the line, it would be you in front of a judge
Another job well done by a skilled electrician.....
Thanks!
Interesting vid. Appreciate your challenges on this one. My view is tell the customer the truth, make him take the decision and the responsibility.
Even though it is not necessary (even according to Am2 regs) I love the idea of using black conduit to disguise the Bonding conductors, much better looking than unprotected green and yellow cable. :-)
Which tester do you use to test the Zappy? When I enquired with My energi they recommended the Metrel or the Megger testers . Also do you use a EVSE test box ? You need all of these to be approved by My energy.
Would have liked to see how you connected the gas bond with the loop to the water. Which earth clamp did you use as looping a 10mm is always a challenge
In CZ we have "old" system called TN-C, which uses only two wires too, but it does not mean it is without protection at all, basicly neutral wire is connected to applience as well as to its metal housing.
Illegal to use TN-C in the UK without home office approval.
Yes, Henley blocks and a db2 for the ev charger, then replace bonding conductors. Then later on if customer agrees to a full rewire, get it done then, can of worms if done any other way as customer receives his car tomorrow.
That aside, the installation looks awful and needs replacing yesterday.
Back in the day when that dates from, lighting just wasn't earthed, and was wired in twin cable. It's surprising how few people got zapped.
I personally think with RCDs nowadays, who needs earth? Virtually every light fitting is double insulated anyway!
Great content as always.
Another great video Jordan. Can you show the air blower more often. Trying to justifying having one 😀
This is the hardest part in the life of an electrician.
It's like finding a stick of dynamite under the floor and saying 'well its been there for 40 years, let's just leave it'.
Shouldve brought that twin back entry into the new db
Nice vid would be great to see a video of that veto tool pouch and your kit you run with in it on the other channel
Cheers
rewire the house and get the lights on kinectic switches , mostly damage will be on sockets and from taking out the floor boxes , for the heating hive stat and its a easy quick job
Hi Jordan, great video. How did you isolate the supply to fit the new junction box for the tails? Should there be an isolation switch? Cheers, take care.
You can only make recommendations. I would recommend a rewire, put the faults in writing. Explain you can't change the boards at the moment. Then just fit a new DB for the charging point, do the MEB's and Bob's your uncle.
What testing do you have to do on the Zappi and what tester do you use?
great work cable run through the bath . Cory and Reuben
Did i get it correctly that the black pvc pipe on the outside was to connect the eart cable? So this house did not have an earth rail near the consumer unit?
Good job sir!
I wouldn’t have bothered with the Tesla and bottom my house sorted first!
Totally agree, The majority of clients just don’t get it, because it works. How many times do you come across a beautifully decorated & well presented property & the electrical installation is shocking.
fantastic result
Did you connect into the henley blocks live? Or pulled the fuse. I always get the customer to have an isolating switch fitted before I do any work
I wouldn't even consider changing the board. Would just advise house needs re wiring. Would have done same as you re the charging point put it on its own separate board.
Good Safe! But old switch panels should be removed. Great Job Thumb up! Cheer!
Nice job as always
I think you made the right decision; It would have been a longer job than the scout hut probably.
The honest thing to do is put the small secondary consumer unit in for the ev charger and inform the customer he needs a full rewire.
This sorts out the new car arriving and gives the customer the option to get the rewire from whoever he wants. That way you are not holding him to ransome, you are doing the ev charger job and giving good advice and customer service as well as adhering to safety regs on the house. And let's face it, if you show this high level of customer service, putting the customer first, you will probably get the rewire job as well.
You could of changed the CU without taking responsibility for the entire installation if stipulated in a written contract. After all you can't make the installation less safe by having everything put onto rcbo/rcd's and mini circuit breakers (though they may trip due to untested issues - leakage etc). Oh just as an FYI you should do a continuity test on the gas bond, one it's not before the first Tee but more importantly if they made the steel pipe joints with a setting compound (which isn't a done thing these days) you may not actually have bonded anything but the new copper supply as you wont always find you have continuity across the joints.
Do love how tidy your installs are, would of bonded the metal down pipe though!
Mark Langley Metal downpipe needed a 22k ohms test to confirm if extraneous. Lots of times pipework of that nature although seemingly “earthy” turns out not requiring to be bonded and doing so then introduces a hazard which previously didn’t exist.
It's a rain water pipe which does not go underground
I mean that is true but it opens the can of worms where he could of installed and the RCD or breakers will trip and he will be there fault finding forever and will
Just end up rewiring anyway
Tw w I know right. The bonding topic come to the surface again. 👍
@@jamiethompson4549 think he took on the job just to make a TH-cam film,let's face it he new what it was like before he got there and having to travel 1 hour each way,I would of not given it the time of day 👍
Noticed you put the Zappi on a Type B 32amp rather than a Type A. Is the inbuilt protection in the Zappi V2 not sufficient to prevent DC residual currents exceeding 6 mA? Or are you going belt and braces by fitting the Type B.
Hi, I have a question. I have the 10-30 dryer outlet ( w/50A Breaker )on my garage wall, and I am only using the gas dryer. I bought the new Gen 2 NEMA 10-30 Adapters from Tesla. Every time when I charge my 2021 Model 3, the first few minutes it can get 25mi/ hr , 24/24A 236v , but after 5-10 mins, it drops to 12mi/hr 12/12A 236V automatically . And couldn't manually adjust back to 25mi/ hr , 24/24A 236v again. Do you know what is going on ? Why it drops from 24v to 12A automatically ? I hope you can help me.
Hi Jordan , how do you register with Zappi to become an approved installer ? Thanks Tim
I was under the impression that if there are any C1 or C2 issues on an installation a fuseboard upgrade is not permitted until they are rectified, so that wouldn't have been an option, unless I'm mistaken?
With the zappi having typeA rcd protection built in. If you had a dual rcd board would it be bad practice to connect the supply to type ac rcd if the supply cable requires rcd protection or if there was no room etc for a small ccu?
You cannot have a Type AC upstream of a type A. There's a diagram floating about somewhere showing how different rcd types should be connected.
How bout wrapping tape around any/all exposed terminals in the metal boxes? That will accomplish the same thing as plastic boxes but much faster.
to fix upstairs lights how about new feed in conduit and Quinetic
Wireless Switches
Jordan I would prefer to do a rewire and do the consumer unit updated at the same time
Did you do this through the grant? Only reason I ask is in Part C, section 2 of the EVHS form it states that you have confirmed the existing install is compliant with current BS7671 and you can evident this if required.
I like your level-headed approach. you dealt with the EV point firstly, to meet the original requirements, AND you made it easier for future upgrades. Then tackled the historic wiring seperately (according to the comments), improved it, and made it safer.
Everything you did improved what was already there.
Can i ask how much this job would cost as i think id need a another box just for the ev chager
assuming all the cables are pvc/pvc, rewiring the lighting should be ok, as normally the new cables will go down the existing capping, plus as a last resort you could use wireless switching, the sockets should also be not too bad, as 2.5 has always had an earth wire in even in rubber, so theres probably poor connections in a socket or JB.
2 days ago I had precisely the same situation..
But our rules different.? Your not compelled to upgrade "other" circuitry unless it's truly unsafe, just consider surely RCD and MCB upgrade is an enormous safety improvement on before. And can negate the need for earthing in some areas.
Stage 2: repair "other" circuits
You did exactly the right thing. If the client had instead you change the board I think you should have said no, and walked away.
That Gas Pipe going into to floor looks old is it still in use or is it capped off some were?
The clear plastic would have been fitted by British Gas - They use that if there is exposed copper or a potential dangerous situation, It basically allows them to walk away knowing a customer cannot touch a live part. - You can see the British Gas Smart Metering sticker to the left of the meter.
Good job sir
Use quinetic for the lights that cuts down the chassing
Nice work
But
Please fit the electric bonding within 600mm and before any T connection from the outlet
It’s a horrible compromise. At least you are doing all the things you need to make the installation safe. However i think you will still find a few surprises when you changeover the fittings.
I would have fitted the charger, but only whit der Limitation to do a complet rewire in the next 4 or 6 months....Im sorry if I write something wrong or so I'm from Germany so I'm not a native english speaker.... By the way nice video and I find it interessting to see other countries electrical instalations and all the diefrent things like ring circuts or the ECIR inspections. I'm doing at the moment a rewire of my Grandmothers house the instalation is from the late 50 so its a big mess. And no panik I have a license and I'm working whit a local compay together. I can send you a few pictures if you want to make a Video about it if you want...
No need to apologise mate. Your English is more or less spot on. A lot better than my German. Done two years of it in School. Only language I ever enjoyed learning. Shame 18 years on, I can't remember a word.
@@stevenwalker3164 Thanks :)
What size cable for the ev charger?
That's an interesting one I think I would probably do the consumer unit upgrade as that will improve the most of the installation and then maybe you can come back overtime and slowly fix the other stuff?
At least here in the US that would be acceptable apart from liability, as the rest of the installation would be considered grandfathered if untouched unless it's the kitchen.
Although I personally would check as much as I could to make sure there is no shorts or Miss wires beforehand especially for metal fittings.
We also have the added advantage that ungrounded circuits can be upgraded to gfcis and are considered safe.
Although I don't see how that's any safer than not upgrading them and watching the users break off the third prong because they don't fit into the outlets........... the more responsible user would get one of the adapters the so-called cheater adapters that nobody attaches the ground screw like they're supposed to, even though technically the screw on the plate has a 50-50 chance of being grounded. it's the difference of era whether it was run in Romex or a metal jacketed flexible cable which I can't remember the name of was it mx? if it's the latter then technically that counts as a ground, as it's essentially flexible metal conduit.
Depends if you want the work or not just fit zappie and make good your work
The plastic sheeting is what the smart meter men normally fit when they view the existing installation as dangerous, normally they put stickers on it.
The block should have been rectified. The shroud is only normally intended for use on a dangerous cut out. All meter fitters carry blocks and isolators for such situations.
The last rewire I did was because the customer said I can’t see what I’m paying for🤭, I did respond with , well I could of clipped all the cables on your wallpaper 😮, I find people consider it as a grudge buy which is understandable. Having said that there are some who do appreciate the importance of it all .
You said it yourself - if you touch the existing - especially if you fit a new CU - you are taking responsibility for the installation.
At the very least - if you fitted a new CU ( which will of course include RCD's) - then you are almost certain to fall foul of nuisance tripping. ( at least you would fit RCBO's on every cct to ease fault finding in that case ?? ) and at worse - something bad really happens ... and the customer will utter the famous phrase " it was alright till you touched it" .
As someone else has said - this customer has got his priorities TOTALLY wrong !! Buys an EV ( which isn't cheap) yet is happy to "drive" a 40 years old "electric house vehicle " which hasn't been serviced in years
This might be a daft question, but if you're not upgrading the CU. Why does the bonding need to be changed? Isn't it a case of it applied to the old regs at the time?
As long as bonding is 6mm or > (when required by 544.1.1 to be 10mm) and no signs of over heating it’s perfectly fine to be left in place.
I thought gas equipotential bonding should be before the first tee in the installation?
Nice bro,,,,,!
Wow. "You've had some cowboys in here" is what I would have said if it was me.
If my house was like that I'd want a full rewire done.
Hi Jordan, just want to ask whether it's ok with regs to loop bonding between gas and water with one 10mm earthing conductor?
Thank you for any answers
Yes you can! The conductor just has to be continuous so that if someone disconnects one it doesn't remove continuity to the other if you see what I mean. So you just loop straight through without cutting the copper, just strip the insulation off.
@@artisanelectrics thnx for getting back to me.. watching a lot of yours videos during Xmas break, really enjoying it !! Cant wait to see end of 2021 summary 😀
As soon as I discovered there was no working earth in the house I took over from my late parents I started a full rewire straight away.
I will need new ceilings and a lot of decorating after this, but so be it.
The earth from the consumer unit was bonded to the water pipe, but as the water mains to the house was replaced with plastic pipe there was no actual earth, beside that both CPRs didn't work at all.
So first job was driving an earth pin, now I'm into rewiring the house and doing some changes and upgrades.
New consumer unit in and get it signed off and I can live in a safe house.
What does a shiny new EV mean if your house burns down?
Thanks for sharing
The plastic over the Henlys is done by the meter fitters now when they spot something dodgey. Lucky it was only the Henly mind.
You just scared me! Drilling the hole for the zappy was downwards from out to in. What a bad way to let water into the building, always uphill from outside to prevent water ingress. Even with the best sealant, that's the best prevention.
Carl Kokay it is okay that providing that it is sealed well you are fine I mean ideally upwards or straight but you have to work with what you have
Why is there is no previous inspection label?. You said it was inspected the day before (8:25)
Client can afford a Tesla,but doesn’t really want to pay to change his 40year old fire trap electrics!
Welcome to the Clients land of image over integrity.
first thing that crossed my mind
I see it all the time, 80k car on the drive but thinks 6k for above ave rewire is expensive🤔🙄😖
@@79dannyroy very true👍, some people get their priorities all wrong
Nothing to do with money. More likely they do not want to re-plaster every single wall in their home along with replacing every single floor covering.
Dan B, don't be so aggressive towards people who can afford 160,000,000,000,000.97 pound cars, you may find that your idea about how much those cost is bs.
Change the cu and a note on the cert “this certificate covers the ev charger installation and the replacement of the existing consumer unit and does not extend to the existing wiring system. The installation has been inspected and tested as fair as reasonably practical and the following notes have been made-“
If you don’t change the board Larry from the pub will and THEN it will become even more dangerous
I know Zappi’s have inbuilt RCD protection, but given you’ve wired the new circuit in T&E, and not SWA, albeit a very short run, shouldn’t it have an RCBO upfront?
If it’s clipped direct which it basically is then it doesn’t need RCD Protection
For comment only ( obviously to maybe help you next time unless you weren’t aware) the earth bonding on the gas pipe should be before any tee on the gas pipe. Great work though.
This is the problem with the current legal regime. It's better from your POV to leave all the ancient and really not very safe stuff as is, than to at least make it better by putting in a new CU with RCDs. My house came like that (metal wylex rewirable fusebox and no earths in the lighting circuits (and a couple of metal fittings, which even I think is a bit dodgy!). Presumably pretty common in 1960s buildings.
That plastic crap over the henly block was installed by whoever installed the smart meter i suspect, presumibly because they thought it was possible to touch live parts. Also, what the hell is that SKU1 cellular box? I would assume smart meter related but it looks like it is not connected in any way to the smart meter. Strange.
Yes the meter fitter would have installed the plastic shroud and given the customer a warning that something was unsafe. Though actually fitters are supposed to replace dangerous blocks and tidy cables themselves. So something isn't right there. The comms hub is for the gas meter, and is normally fitted underneath an existing "dumb" meter or incompatible smart electric meter, but it can be installed separately if really necessary. I suspect what we have here just a very lazy meter fitter who left a sub-standard installation to get the job done quicker.
@@0liver0verson9Excellent explanation! thanks a bunch :)
The hub is for the gas meter guess they have diffrent suppliers so they need the hub to talk to the gas supplier
Why no RCD on that new consumer unit ? Or cable protection not required.Assume EV charger has integral RCD ?
You did the right thing with install , yes it needs a rewire , existing consumer unit 1 off and 2 off MEM fused Switches can all be removed.
Yeah the Zappi has built in RCD so no RCD protection needed in the board as it’s clipped direct cable. When I move the circuits over from the main house I will fit RCBOs
And I thought our "new" flat was bad... At some point we want to get a charger installed for our Zoe, but I fear what it would involve, so I'm holding off even asking an electrician for an opinion.
I would of done new tailspin a new separate board. Therefore you don’t take responsibility for the install in the property. At the end of the day you can’t force people to spend money on a re wire all you can do is make it safe as possible. Always do a EICR before that way you know what issues are present an you’ve got the proof to relay back to the customer
I would Install the EV Charger and fit a consumer unit and wire the circuits on the MEMs and Do your Recommendation. And Rewire from the old wirelex.if the Customer wants the work doing in the future.