The Outer Circle I just that thought that stating fabius was working on his marines for 10k years should have been given these is not imperium isn't right cawl has been working on these for the same length of time. I would be expecting Mr Biles not to be perfect but mutated due to the influence of chaos. the imperium has stagnated including there tech but over 10k years it would give enough time for Cawl to learn and perfect his marines, imperium has stagnated but the individual can learn. Just my view.
I think the hate is because of the way you present your points like they are the end of the discussion when they are just part of a debate; eg just because Fabius worked for 10000 years doesn't mean he can match the entire Mechanicum, Also Guilliman commissioned the marine project 10000 yrs ago before he 'died ' so it's really a case of the Mechanicum outperforming Fabius over a span of 10000 yrs which is exactly what a behemoth industry of billions that has been collecting knowledge for thousands of yrs would do. The fact that it took the smartest guys 10000 years to create the primaris marines also shows that if Guilliman came back, saw the chaos big marines and said "we need to react to that" then the battle and fate of the imperium would be decided a long time before the primaris marines took to the field. The mk 10 thing is obviously not an oversight, its exactly what windows 8 going to windows 10 was--for impact. Your examination of their armour showed you know plenty about how real armour works, but we are talking about the same universe where literally every single tank of the imperium has major design flaws such as lack of sloped armour or a high profile, where they might have materials that are hardy enough to make the tank work on the battlefield but it's still massively sub-optimal to not at least slope the armour and save material and make the tank lower so it gets hit less. This is the fact for many things in 40k so a smart realistic analysis of the armour just came off as nit picky. Personally, I think they don't really have a place in the 40k universe, the space marines are what the emperor created and if they could have been better optimized why wouldn't he have just created them like that.. it can be fluff justified but I just think it's not the great. Also, i think big marines just look bad in space marine armies from a visual perspective.
Fabius Bile is the archetype of the mad scientist. He might have been working for 10K years (though not really, because time in the warp works funny) but ultimately he is utterly insane and not nearly as brilliant or capable as he himself thinks. He is the Menguele of the WH40K universe, his experiments horrifying and, judging by the results, utterly unnecessary, which only reinforces the wanton and ultimately pointless nature of his evil and obsession. Fact is, Chaos has, and always has had, "super" space marines in the form of posessed, mutated, chosen, obliterators and other traitors enhanced and supernaturally empowered by the warp. It is a rather welcome change for the Imperium to have their own super-supersoldiers for once.
Cawl sounds like a Chaos name, could he be dark Mechanicum ? If Robute is truly the Chaos minion and the true mastermind behind the Horus Heresy. These Primaris marines might actually be super Chaos space marines.
The tactical squad sergeant isnt wearing MkVIII armor, only the chest piece, the rest is MkVI and MKVII. The new Deathwatch models wear full MkVIII. ...fuck im a 40k nerd.
I love this theory. It would actually make a bad idea good... or at least tenable. I do agree with what you say about the Imperium and regression. That's the heart of 40k, and GW have addressed this badly.
here 5 years later; 'primaris' chaos marines would've fit well into the arks of omen storyline and it would've been great for when slaanesh got a big revamp like the other chaos legions.
I play Slaanesh/Emperors Children, I'm used to being ignored shit on.. Bigger double cheese burger marines why not. Totally agree about regarding Fabius, the guy has been breaking the rules, since before Horus choose rebellion. Surely he should have craze Event Horizon type shit going down. Ps: love the content, old old gamer to another.
I believe the success of the Primaris Marines (if they have no new genetic defects: which we have yet to see) in comparison to Fabius is probably due to two main differences. On one hand the Primaris project likely had access to the Emperors gene banks, personal notes and gene equipment from luna, and ten thousand years of trial and error, with a secure location to work from. Unlike Bile who has been on the run, is possibly suffering fro Space Marine cancer which may or may not be forcing him to clone himself (that's purely a rumour I have heard). On the other hand it likely took the tech priests 10,000 years simply to develop a 'stable' genetic template for the gene seed of the Primaris, and that it won't mutate, kill or cripple a person once its shoved into an initiate, and will give a marginally noticeable improvement over regular Space Marine Gene seed. In comparison to Fabius whose experiments always seem to be pushing the genetic potential of his test subjects to the absolute extreme, such as with the noise marines, and who doesn't seem to care, from what I can tell, about restraining his experiments. Still I am sure Fabius himself will be furious once he hears this XD
infact. I would not be surprised if chaos unites more now and fabius steps up his game to compensate. might come to see more physical differences among the four dark gods' power armored servants if all goes well.
oh I'm just fed up with the lame changes and the fan boys biting at the bait. Been around since 1st edition and I feel they just keep messing the whole thing up. Can't keep up with their own fluff. Can't fix and balance armies. Just tosses around new models, like "look at what we are giving you! Might not be balance, but it's new and shiny". They wonder why their fan base keeps dropping. And before anyone says they have a larger new player base, not really. Even when someone joins, they soon quit over unbalanced armies or costs. Really feel like Eight edition could be good, but it seems like a last ditch effort to bring in new people and at the same time, not truly fix everything they broke.
I absolutely agree with you. Both on the design of the armor and about the fluff surrounding Primaris Space Marines. 40k used to be the Imperiums desperate struggle to survive in a galaxy full of threats, but apparently now guilliman will fix everything. Glad to hear I'm not the only one weirded out by GW's deus-ex-machina approach to storytelling. They could've just been honest and said: 'Hey, have some amazing new Space Marine sculpts, they are truescale and you can use em if you want, but you can also stick with the older minis.' It's obviois anyways, no point in hiding it...
Also, you must buy banners for all of your units, as well as chaos marks that don't mesh with them. All power-fist armed units will have the mark of Slaanesh, and you must take 3 maxed units of Mutilators in your army, and wear glasses that turn all models on the table into Mutilators. You may only take off the glasses once your eyeballs start to bleed.
"What if we just keep updating chaos' miniature range, but never modify the rules in any meaningful way so they are stuck with shit-tacular units. At the same time, we just keep giving the Loyalists more and more new shit." "Dude, that's been our only plan with chaos since 4th ed?"
They are making the chaos uber marines.. unfortunately they screwed the fluff again and they will be death guard. Rather than Iron Warrior or Fabius' works. Most people ignore that Fabius was skilled enough to CLONE PRIMARCHS, mind you they were "lesser" but still he clones PRIMARCHS and he cloned Horus.
Nathaniel Schultz it annoys me how every chaos update the new stuff is exclusive to one chaos sub faction for example death guard models and thousands sons and cannot be universal like Primaris space marines, it's stupid. Muh Night Lords
1st: If they were lesser primarchs, then they weren't primarchs. 2nd: "Hur durr they don't make exactly what I want so they are screwing up hur durr" This is how idiotic you sound.
1st: He was able to replicate the gene-seed to a lesser extent. Making, in essence, half of a primarch. This made them stronger than the normal marine. 2nd: It's not that they're not making what we want, it's that they're making what SOME people want with shitty lore explanations and giving chaos only exclusive unit updates, not universal like the primaris marines. "Hur durr, I enjoy the expansive buttfucking of GW" that's how idiotic you sound.
I'm going to agree with the broadcaster, that he finally got to a great point. That Cadia gets overwelmed with Super CSM. Via the works of Bile and Honsou. THAT works. And yes, the CSM Dark Vengence Chosen models were awesome. (( not a chaos player))
GW posted no less than 3 times i think telling chaos players that they had stuff in store for them. im sure chaos will be getting something new aswell. i agree with you about the marines tho. i love this new design. my worries come in the fluff department. why not just say "yeah were going truescale, cawl has made new weapons and armor for the space marines" instead of adding ANOTHER type of marine. i say yeah - phase out old marine MODELS not the ACTUALL MARINES.
If you told people their existing space marines were invalidated, they freaked, from managing the game perspective, this was the best way to introduce true scale marines.
I think new marines are a fine thing, they aren't the end of the world. I just think they should have been reactionary to Chaos, but alas, Chaos will stick to new kits of existing units and nothing with an uber high threat factor.
The Outer Circle > yeah the reveal was bad. i reckon it has to do with the leaks seeing as the dg models are revealed but under lock and key from leaks it seems. it should have been revealed after the dg models Hulking new marines, even bigger terminators - how is the imperium supposed to fight this new threat??. the thing is no matter how reactionairy the response was - a timeskip of well than 100 years of the imperium constantly getting stomped and disintegrating would be needed in my opinion to gice cawl the time needed to get the process rolling, have the fluff state "creation is still under way! we are rolling them out as soon as we can ship them to the chapters"
You’re certainly not wrong. They shit the bed again, with all the build up of the fall of Cadia and all that I was really hoping for a big surge in Chaos maybe I would stop playing my Nids and dust off the old World Eaters but of course it would just be another Space Marine buff and of course it would be Robo Girly Man that would be the new EMPERAH.
In Halo when the Spartan IIIs are introduced they do support the superior Spartan IIs though they are far more expendable. They should have given the Primaris Marines some sort of Caveat. :/ Harder better faster stronger at this early point makes it seem less like a dystopia
Yeah, they are pretty sweet models, sadly the price tag scares me a bit, you see my friend we suffer from similar problems, having to buy models with mexican peso hurts lol
Just my two cents. Being a Son of Russ myself from the RT days. GW is going to really have to convince me that newer is better. We just got our 13th company back. We are back up to Legion strength now the Damned Imperium is shoving these newly enhanced marines. Sure I might let them fight along side me but not too sure about excepting them back into the fold. The Wolf Priests, Tech priests, and Rune priests already have their hands full with the wulfen. I see that the wolves do not have the patience nor the additional priests to train these primaris to adopt the same tactics that have been in place since the legions founding. Us wolves are a superstitious lot. We dont like the new nor do we care for the Imperium telling us what to do. I guess we will have to see how they try to work the fluff for the wolves and other non-codex astartes.
Fluffwise I hope these are basically Thunder Warriors and they will have as much problems as the Original Thunder Warriors did. Guilliman is just grasping at straws for anything to help the dying Imperium. As the other Primarchs come back and go "what the shit, Guilliman" and it causes a schism that is not needed for the Imperium.
I, and many I know, agree with the sentiment that GW dropped the ball on the lore. If they had wanted to, they could have tied in the Primaris with their existing origin to the split Imperium - have one side embrace these new marines under Guilliman, but have the other half remain staunch traditionalists and reject the new Primaris as heretical abomonations. That way you can have your Primaris chapters without using the poorly written timeskip lore to force them on every chapter. Chapters like the Dark Angels would be super suspicious of these guys, and Black Templars would see Mechanicum heresy in messing with the holy gene seed. While I don't hate Primaris myself, I did spend the last couple of years designing my own chapter who are loyalists, but also traditionalists and have rejected the Primaris. They fight the enemies of Man the way they always have done, as from their perspective it has been doing the job for the last several thousand years.
i don't like primaris personally but big thing for me at 2020 is they didn't just say hey these are the new armour that can be integrated onto your sm army no these are bad lore new marines that replace your old army.
Great idea to rebuild a faction and add a bunch of new models to it... but maybe do that to line of models that you forgot about for 10 years before the one that’s already a best seller? I am able to build a full space marine army without a single one of these new editions but the elder have what maybe 2 troops choices?
Watching in 2022, I completely, passionately agree with you. It's a symptom of the neglect of Chaos in general by GW. I don't know why this is, but I think these corporate MF'ers are slaves to the normie bias of rooting for "the good guys". They underestimate the intelligence and sophistication of their customer base. If you build it, they will come. Give us amazing Chaos and it'll sell just as well as the Smurfs.
ive been away from tabletop for nearly two decades. looking to return but i just cant reconcile primaris marines. its like when the emperor had thunder warriors and killed them off for space marines. are space marines the new thunder warriors?
So I just figured something out. 1) Matt Ward is back working at GW (August 2016) , 2) Primaris Space Marines Arrive May 2017. Coincidence? NO! Heresy? Definitely. Matt Ward is the un-arguably the 5th Chaos god and the Primaris Space Marines need to be Purged!
Might want to read up on the 21st founding. Specifically the experiments that were terminated. Such as Marines that were substantially larger than any marine ever seen before, who seemed fully formed and functional but were terminated while still in their sarcophagi, some of which had been dissected, and all of which had had their geneseed removed.
GW clearly wanted to update the marine range to make their scale more representative of the lore. Marines stood shoulder to shoulder with guardsmen for decades and that was quite dissatisfying. The only way to properly do that is to upgrade the entire range in one big swoop to avoid scale discrepancies. Any lore about them being extra special is just a way of smoothing this scale upgrade over. They're not special units, they're the new normal. This doesn't mean that chaos marines will stay small. Both the new Death Guard and the new Thousand Sons are only slightly shorter than a primaris marine. So the scale increase was already under way. This means that the vanilla Chaos marines are likely to get a scale upgrade as well. Eventually. It's just that the Space Marines are the flagship of the company and by far the most popular army. Starting with them just makes more sense.
I agree with everything you said. I would only make one addition, and that is that if GW had Primaris'd Chaos first and wrote a fluffy thing about Rowboat scrambling to respond it would have given people time to adjust to the idea of the new Primaris marines coming out as a replacement /upgradefor the existing marines, which would have been a lot better than having Superhuman God Soldiers fighting alongside Super-Superhuman God Soldiers. I feel like GW did the little-brother-big-brother dynamic it did because, for some reason, unlike in the last 30-odd years, it felt like it couldn't drop a bunch of new minis on people and say "your old stuff is outdated, time to buy more shit"
Your problem with this entire subject.....GW has been fething up the lore and the game since the end of 5th Edition right before 6th Edition was released. The best reason I've seen for all the new stuff like Primaris Marines...GW seeing that they had lost the IP battle in court over "Space Marines" (and a lot of the other stuff they claim IP over), this is all new a shiny IP stuff so they can use the courts and C&D letters to get control again.
Well, it sounds like the new Nurgle marines are supposed to be the the same size as these. I agree that the nurgle marines should have maybe been released first, then the primaris marines. The only real explanation is that Cawl has been working on these marines for the last 10k years, and the explanation could be that guilliman saw the heresy and said the marines of the era and 40k are too weak, and that's why we failed, we need to be better so as to not fail again. And so these boys have been in the works since even before the heresy ended
sometimes new prototypes are scrapped for better ideas. Mark IX may have been scrapped before the primaris marines were issued armor for the better Mark X armor. edit: changed Mark IV to Mark IX
After a 5 year long wait for something new for my iron warriors to use ( traitor legions didn't give use anything new worth a dam) they better give us more that a few new nurgle models. Hell the oblit and mutalators are still crappy resin.
Traitor Legions was the 5th bandaid applied to chaos since 6E codex. how many bandaids do they need before they just suck it up, admit they fucked the whole book and call a do-over? Oh, that's right, that's impossible for our golden saviours, so instead chaos is now relying on the 8th Edition system to rebalance the range. 33% chance of success, 33% chance of mediocrity and same-ness, 33% chance of failing chaos for a 4th edition in a row.
What i'm worried about is that the only thing they are doing to chaos this time is adding more nurgle stuff and updating their models, calling that an update to the whole of chaos then move on to give marines nice new models and units all chapters can use...o wait they have started doing that already with the new type of marine. Lie you said in video fabius bile had more open experimentation, testing his creations and learning from the mistakes in open combat, these marines were created in secret but work better ??.
maybe cawl was stuck for ages, then came across biles handiwork and created the primaris marines. hopefully theyre succeptible to chaos as part of some mad plan by bile
What I dont like about crawl is that he didn't really give any new units to the admech besides himself but he gave a whole new range of marines out of nowhere
From a narrative stand point it would have made sense for Chaos to get the new marines, but from a marketing and realistic view, being space marine being the most popular and poster boys for 40k, they would want to keep pushing that side of the franchise more to keep new people interested and old player wanting to update their army
I know I'll get heat for this. But... I would love if the tau after decades of experience in fighting space marines. They either by reverse engineering or by develop it themselves . They get a Space marine equivalent but with it being limited to the humans loyal to them.
I think the Primaris Marines would have been received if they were introduced AFTER plastic Sisters and Nurgle (OR after a Chaos update). Marines have had so many releases recently that people are tired their armies are getting shafted. Chaos, Orks, fuck, even Eldar are still running resin units of decades old sculpts.
Hate me if you wan't to for this, But the way I belive chaos should be more powerful than the marines is by the chaos space marine being bigger, powerful, diligent, and fearless along with having 10-20 man squads well having not only more vehicles, monsterous creatures, horus herecy vehicles and equipment. But also have expanded demons added to the codex. The cult troops should have there cult wepons that make them special and then take upgrades such as terminator armour, jump packs, bikes, and upgrade the obliterators and mutilators to their specific faction wepons well also having the option of the cult troops taking their mount beside their lords, but zeanch and nurgel need alternative mounts. Also instead of having a heldrake ( hate the model) there should be this flying barge/hull that could take forge feinds and predator wepons and turrets or become a transport for the chaos space marines, terminators, or bikes to travel accross the bord, and any dreadnought, defiler, forge fined muller fined should count as a monstrous creature and take marks well having lots of fire power and attacks. Then the secondary legions such as alpha legion, word bearers, night lords, and iron warriors should unlock a force orge depending on what legion you pick. lastly The chaos lord should be a prator with lots of viable options. Most of all chaos should be able to have more models than the space marines could have on the table with viable rules. what I dont wan't in the codex is the boon table, cultist, heldrake, warp talons, and spawn on in the codex, I wan't to make defirent and new list each and every battle report and experience my army to the full potential. so what do you think every body. I could explain more if you like.
Well, atleast the new chaos rules got rid of the chaos boon, but everything you just said you want out of the codex has gotten much better in the 8th edition, aswell as khorne berserkers.
With the possibilty for daemin to fuse with marines armor, we should expect chaos marines to have better armor and crazy things like fast terminators. But, in 40k its been a while that GW stopped sucking the tasty meat of chaos.
Here's my beef: it's that I am invested in the characters that I have come to know and now they are basically sidelined. Calgar, Dante, etc. I was as much into the drama of seeing these great characters finally seeing the Imperium broken and then having to win it back again. I don't mind new characters, but not new characters that will essentially replace the characters that I was into. I agree that Chaos should have got this first. But I would have liked this if perhaps the marines we know and love would have also been able to be further enhanced. That way we don't lose the story. I mean, how important is Kayvan Shrike now that there are tons of rookies just... better than him now. Out of the blue. How are custodes special now? How is Logan Grimnar important to the story if every newbie is now just beyond him? If all space marines were subject to an enhancement in response to the enhanced Chaos marines that Fabius bile created and guilliman maybe captured some to dissect and they figured out that there were some things that they had deep in the emperors personal archives that tells them the same thing or even make slightly better versions of what Bile made, but the theres the challenge that they need to withdraw space marine chapters one at a time to enhance them all and provide reenforcement, all while certain planets are falling without space marines to help their astra militarism, then the newly enhanced marines will have to go out and retake what was lost etc. etc. THEN I might have a better time With this. But as of right now, I don't Iike this, at all. Not even a little bit. It's the story and the characters I was into. Now all my favorite characters are chumps. Hell, even the eldar I liked are now so far surpassed by the primaries that it's pointless to even have elder. I'm think I'm just done with 40k now.
Very good video once again. I don't get why one would write these guys into the fluff. Astartes aren't demi-gods now, like they were before (well...sort off). How do you want to make a Night Lord Veteran of the Heresy a scary enemy for one of those new marines with "better gene seed" (dafuq?). Or even better than Dante, Khârn etc. The sculpts look nice tho, that's true. PS: Fuck... it always depresses me to see how great the fluff you create is and then realize that it's not canon.
Working my ass off to get into a company which is based in another country across the globe which has zero interest in this country? Hahaha! By making these videos, for free, in my own spare time, videos which generally get pretty positive feedback I'll add, I am doing my bit to say what some people are thinking. Yes, I am pretty arrogant, I would love to start up my own miniatures company, but currently it's a saturated market, and GW has a 40 year head start, as well as a nigh-unsinkable IP. I work about 50 hours a week running an engineering business, and I'm pretty good at it, but it doesn't leave me that much time to work towards becoming GW's key fluff writer.
I think the reason they used fluff reasons to explain bigger marines was to try to not invalidate older collections and model lines, such as FW HH marines. Without a fluff explanation of "we have the power to make bigger marines" mountains of model collections would be suddenly outdated. By using the distinction of "these are Primaris, these are not" GW encourages people to keep playing with their old marines and FW stuff while enticing them to move to Primaris if they wish so. If they had just went "this is the new size of Space Marines, deal with it" people would feel the need to scrap and replace their armies or just quit altogether.
Way back when in the mists of time GW came up with a chapter called the 'mentor legion' they had green and white suits and they were the test bed marines for new tactics and experimental weapons they should have used them as primaris marines
Jimmy Corvus It seems everyone is. In different ways. People like me and you are confused because we know that the imperium isn't a force for hope (and was never meant to be, from a thematic standpoint), but now there's another big chunk of the fanbase that's going along with it, clearly confused as to the thematic nature of 40k. Should I make videos on this shit? How the hell do I open their eyes?
there is a history of missing Mk numbers in development of equipment. for example the spitfires that saw action were the Mki, ii, v, vii, viii, ix, xii, xiv, xvi, xviii, mk19, mk20 mk21. note missing Mk iii, iv, vi.
I think they should have made them a new faction of marines like the Grey knights(Daemon hunters)or DeathWatch(Xeno’s Hunters) instead of upgraded space marines, but they could be specialized in fighting some other kind of threat to The Imperial way of life
Primaris Marines should have been a one-per-army Elite unit as well as Leaders only. For example, you'd have a single Primaris Squad and maybe a few Leaders who were Primaris Marines in your army.
With the Primaris, they're getting Age of Sigmar confused with 40K. In AoS, hope exists. The super soldiers are upstarts. The Stormcast exist because Sigmar is finally throwing the civilized races a bone after thousands of years of Chaos having its way. That same kind of feeling just doesn't mesh with 40K, where the villainous factions are the upstarts, eating away at a crumbling empire.
Now I have been pondering weather they should have just done a time jump. And release it as 50k. Then they could just say this is what space marines are like in the future. Balance it so the new can fight with the old in table top but the story could contunie without destroying the old lore.
well, the reason i don't like primaris isn't the fluff, the look, or breaking up thousands of years of the same armour. i don't like their lack of cutomization. 37 bucks for 10 grey hunters or 50 bucks for 15 blood claws is an amazing deal. super customizeable, super detailed, and super specialized. OR 60 bucks for 10 primaris marines. just pointin out something, everybody skips 9. windows, gw... that's everybody. but 9 is kind of skipped over. and as it's 2019 with the new chaos, ERE' WE GO!!!! my bad, wrong battle cry.
My bet is that the new death guard will be an equivalent to the primaris marine. They will be equal in size and also 2 wounds. Maybe there will be some random fluff excuse for corrupted primaris marines, whatever. The hint has already been dropped given that the main artwork for the new edition is a primaris marine on the left, and a corrupt primaris marine on the right. Both wearing the same MK X armor. This is the beginning of GW replacing the entire space marine AND chaos space marine lines with truescale and more importantly getting everyone to replace their existing armies with new models that cost $90au for 5 marines.
Having seen the sculpts, they are bigger, but not quite as big IMO. They are very much in MK III and I think they are not going to be as strong, they are weaker marines boosted by chaos, not an inventive new threat. Therein lies the problem.
Point of note, some have suggested that the Deathwatch range is in MK IX power armour. I can't see any distinction between that armour and MK VIII, so if it is 'MK XI' it's entirely due to them writing it in the fluff and not conveying it visually. Since MK VIII is still only making its way in small numbers to the chapters, I'd find it strange to be bypassed entirely by the Deathwatch. That said, that codex is a shitfight, so anything could be true. I suppose this is a roundabout way of me saying I both could be wrong and could owe GW an apology. On that note, why are the Bolt Rifles MK II?
You're talking about R&D... if Mars is developing MK IX and figures that MK X will be ready for mass production early on during MK IX's life span or even earlier, they would cease MK IX and jump straight to X. That's what happens with R&D... It's actually UNCOMMON for a military force to develop and mass produce each model in order because technological advancements skip ahead.. Bolt Rifles being MK II would be the exact same reason, they developed MK I, improved it or changed it, and produced MK II for the Primaris Marines.
Because there have been 8 MK's of armour so far, and each is an evolution of the last. At no point did they just make 50 suits and then say 'nah, not good enough' did they?
Didn't they? How else do you explain a production line jumping from model 8 to 10, or the bolt rifle being a Mk II. It's no different from any other production line, you're bitching because we didn't see the earlier marks.. so what
I'm late to the video, but only recently discovered your channel. My opinion about the primaris is that GW handled the lore completely wrong. I think they should have introduced the Primaris marines as "true scale" models, which people have wanted those for a long time. GW has been gradually increasing the size of the space marine models for the last 30 years, so I think it's fair that these new models could just be truer-to-lore. Guilliman's initiatives could have come in the form of new tactics and wargear; the mk.x armour, the primaris vehicles, the mk.2 bolter. That would have been a lot less dramatic of a change than what we got. I found the whole thing pretty jarring and just stupidly written. Furthermore, if you look at the Death Guard models they brought out, you can plainly see that they are the exact same size as the primaris, despite being 10,000 year old regular Astartes wearing mk.3 armour. Yeah, they could be "warp-charged" or whatever, but we all know that's bullshit and that CSM have always been about the same size as regular astartes anyway. They're all " warp charged" anyway. That's the point. Finally, I think it's sad how at the same time they're basically sliding the old Astartes off the table. Special characters get Primaris treatment. The rest of the marines aren't talked about or depicted in artwork, no new models are released, and it's plain to everyone that GW just wants to get rid of them. The models are nice. I really like them (except that they're mostly monopose now and that limits convertability), but the way that the lore was handled is just critically retarded in my opinion.
it makes sense that Cawl would have managed to perfect these marines over the course of 10k years while fabius "primarch marines" would be horridly mutated crap still. i can see exactaly what you mean by the armour having parts of different armour styles coming together.
They weren't created in his absence (According to the fluff). Gman ordered their creation well before he ever ended up in stasis. But yeah, I agree, they fucked it. They should have just released them as TrueScale marines.
I think the obvious thing is that the new marines are just a temporary fluff justification to ease people into marine models being a larger scale generally, a sort of half step. Look at the plague marines in the starter box, which are pretty much the same size. I'm pretty sure we'll never see a new marine model from GW at the previous scale, not for 40k anyway, and in two or three editions time 'primaris' won't even be a word anymore, these will just be 'space marines', and the older, smaller models will just be dropped altogether, with a note that players who still have those models can still use them as their new equivalents.
the imperium is basically the last years of the roman empire before the split into the east and western roman empire, its very much had its glory years
The rules for these have come out, they move faster than marines and have 2 wounds, but no special weapons, going back to squads of heavy / special weapons like Heresy. (Or AoS)
Grey Knights where Aegis, but your point still stands. I also think its stupid they took the clearly most popular faction and add even more powerful stuff to them. GW wants to make money here's how I would do it: Lore: (rewind prior to Gathering Storm) Astronomicon goes out, why, Emperor dies (Lore allowed for this as the Throne was having out of warranty issues). Warp becomes less hostile (for travel), why, Emperor died? Eye of Terror (and other warp storms) shrink a little, revealing many core worlds of Chaos Cults / Marines. Imperium: Starts to fracture and civil war stirs up since the emperor is gone. Primarchs return to stabilize, but none have a agreeing view on future for the Imperium. As a result they split up the Imperium (not in a round table style, but just this is my area keep out). I see it like this, Vulkan, his legion have an area around Nocturne Girlyman in Ultramar with his legions Dorn (we'll say he returns missing and arm) covering Terra and that area Lion will be an area around Segmentum Obscurus Russ with be less about a domain and more just fighting Chaos Corax and Khan (if he returns) can do stuff too I guess. Chaos: Chaos, although the warp retreats a bit it has the effect of unleashing the Chaos Marines, perhaps bored now that there is less to do in the warp or warp gods w/e Other factions can do stuff, like Eldar make way to push towards the Chaos to start their strike back. Dark Eldar raids become more active since they don't have the drain of Slaanesh (or not as bad) so they can be out of the webway longer. Orks can do what orks do, through in a super smart ork to have a new Beast scenario, so more tech and different stuff. Tau, perhaps a civil war as Farsight returns or something. Necrons, some get souls, start to advance, w/e I don't know. Tyranids: Kerrigan shows up and renames them Zerg, or w/e Result: so many new units and variants. You've split the Imperium into 6 or more mini factions, gives reason to have conflict between them as well as tech developments. Since the old order and religion has been shaken it is logical that much of the stagnation mentality would be shaken too. This can transfer to other factions as well. Rather than more Super units you have more variants, not just visually but Vulkan's faction can have units with different rules and abilities, etc. That's $$, then for fluff you have a much more dynamic galaxy which leads to more books, battles, and overally the ability to change without just saying, "oh girlyman just came up with these magic super space marines that the emperor could never have done."
Looking at everything now and what chaos has available I agree with you except for on the point that primaris should have been released originally for chaos. I think what they should have done as they should the release the entire death guard set and then had the primaris release counter to that instead of having chaos get some form of primaris marine. Also I thought the video was vary well executed and it just earned you a new subscriber, don't let the bite from other people get you and jest keep doing what you do
When you mentioned Dark Vengeance, I thought you were going to compare the CSM and SM models to those that came before. They are actually larger, but not by too much. I'd say a head taller.
Not phased about size, that's the least of my problems here tbh. It's more a fluff standpoint, Chaos should have done it first, with the likes of Fabius Bile. A Fabius Bile book would have been the go-to, but hey, GW....
I like these new Marines, basically all they did was make them taller and tweaked the proportions of the marines, now they look like you could actually have supposedly "human" in there
I REALLY hope Fabulous Bill cooks up SOMETHING for Chaos. Also, I want Chosen to have their OWN kits without having to bash together Warp Talon head/shoulder/body with normal CSM arm/legs/weaps
So the video is good, but it's not like GW have said there will not be any equivalent to primaris in chaos released later down the line. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a bigger and better stat line in 8th edition for chosen marines. Also we always get a corrupted form or chaos form of imperial units and it won't stop me converting some chaos primaris.
I have to say I do like the sculpts and will be getting some for my dark angels , but hopefully chaos will get something equivalent or at least they should .
You bring a valid point. Fabius Bile's been playing the game for millenia, though it's only possible as for all we know he might still be missing a key point to be able to produce an army of primarchs. Whereas, we got Mary Sue Pappa Smurf pulls the Mary Sue of Mary Sues and was like, "LAWL! JOKES ON YOU! WE HAD THIS ALL ALONG!" Being a Space Marine player, I honestly both love and hate the Primaris Marines. Here's the reason why I hate them: The Imperium is dying. All "new" technological advancements that have been happening in the fluff of the 41st millennium have all been archaeological finds of technology that used to be mass produced millennia ago. So I find it funny how we suddenly got this "hidden" facility on Mars that's been in the works for 10,000 years that started work at the HEIGHT of Space Marine loyalty fear. Hell, Papa Smurf broke the legions so as to prevent another Horus Heresy, so WHY would they start building an army of the same post-humans that are even STRONGER than the ones who went on a rampage across the galaxy? Especially when it's been shown that Astartes DO go rogue. The only way to prevent this from being a repeat of history is if these Primaris Marines all have the same mental fortitude of Grey Knights.
A lot of hate and dislikes on this video... and I said I like the new marines. I'd love to see what those who shit on them are copping right now....
The Outer Circle I just that thought that stating fabius was working on his marines for 10k years should have been given these is not imperium isn't right cawl has been working on these for the same length of time. I would be expecting Mr Biles not to be perfect but mutated due to the influence of chaos. the imperium has stagnated including there tech but over 10k years it would give enough time for Cawl to learn and perfect his marines, imperium has stagnated but the individual can learn. Just my view.
I think the hate is because of the way you present your points like they are the end of the discussion when they are just part of a debate; eg just because Fabius worked for 10000 years doesn't mean he can match the entire Mechanicum, Also Guilliman commissioned the marine project 10000 yrs ago before he 'died ' so it's really a case of the Mechanicum outperforming Fabius over a span of 10000 yrs which is exactly what a behemoth industry of billions that has been collecting knowledge for thousands of yrs would do. The fact that it took the smartest guys 10000 years to create the primaris marines also shows that if Guilliman came back, saw the chaos big marines and said "we need to react to that" then the battle and fate of the imperium would be decided a long time before the primaris marines took to the field.
The mk 10 thing is obviously not an oversight, its exactly what windows 8 going to windows 10 was--for impact.
Your examination of their armour showed you know plenty about how real armour works, but we are talking about the same universe where literally every single tank of the imperium has major design flaws such as lack of sloped armour or a high profile, where they might have materials that are hardy enough to make the tank work on the battlefield but it's still massively sub-optimal to not at least slope the armour and save material and make the tank lower so it gets hit less. This is the fact for many things in 40k so a smart realistic analysis of the armour just came off as nit picky.
Personally, I think they don't really have a place in the 40k universe, the space marines are what the emperor created and if they could have been better optimized why wouldn't he have just created them like that.. it can be fluff justified but I just think it's not the great. Also, i think big marines just look bad in space marine armies from a visual perspective.
Fabius Bile is the archetype of the mad scientist. He might have been working for 10K years (though not really, because time in the warp works funny) but ultimately he is utterly insane and not nearly as brilliant or capable as he himself thinks. He is the Menguele of the WH40K universe, his experiments horrifying and, judging by the results, utterly unnecessary, which only reinforces the wanton and ultimately pointless nature of his evil and obsession.
Fact is, Chaos has, and always has had, "super" space marines in the form of posessed, mutated, chosen, obliterators and other traitors enhanced and supernaturally empowered by the warp. It is a rather welcome change for the Imperium to have their own super-supersoldiers for once.
Cawl sounds like a Chaos name, could he be dark Mechanicum ?
If Robute is truly the Chaos minion and the true mastermind behind the Horus Heresy. These Primaris marines might actually be super Chaos space marines.
Good video man it shows that they still don't have the story together.
GW does favor the imperium after all. Still waiting on official dark mechanicus(not gonna lie converting my own is very fun) sculpts/units.
The tactical squad sergeant isnt wearing MkVIII armor, only the chest piece, the rest is MkVI and MKVII.
The new Deathwatch models wear full MkVIII.
...fuck im a 40k nerd.
I know that too, hence why I pointed at the torso and spoke about the gorget around the neck.
Shit I know that I'm a nerd too
I love this theory. It would actually make a bad idea good... or at least tenable.
I do agree with what you say about the Imperium and regression. That's the heart of 40k, and GW have addressed this badly.
Can't see the chapter masters having problems with Cawl stealing their sacred gene seed to make mutant marines.
here 5 years later; 'primaris' chaos marines would've fit well into the arks of omen storyline and it would've been great for when slaanesh got a big revamp like the other chaos legions.
You are dead on GW should have done Chaos first. That or just done a true scale revamp where they stopped making the old scale.
Good idea,
OR
they could have just brought the models out and said : "this is what space marines look like now!"
I play Slaanesh/Emperors Children, I'm used to being ignored shit on.. Bigger double cheese burger marines why not. Totally agree about regarding Fabius, the guy has been breaking the rules, since before Horus choose rebellion. Surely he should have craze Event Horizon type shit going down.
Ps: love the content, old old gamer to another.
I believe the success of the Primaris Marines (if they have no new genetic defects: which we have yet to see) in comparison to Fabius is probably due to two main differences. On one hand the Primaris project likely had access to the Emperors gene banks, personal notes and gene equipment from luna, and ten thousand years of trial and error, with a secure location to work from. Unlike Bile who has been on the run, is possibly suffering fro Space Marine cancer which may or may not be forcing him to clone himself (that's purely a rumour I have heard). On the other hand it likely took the tech priests 10,000 years simply to develop a 'stable' genetic template for the gene seed of the Primaris, and that it won't mutate, kill or cripple a person once its shoved into an initiate, and will give a marginally noticeable improvement over regular Space Marine Gene seed. In comparison to Fabius whose experiments always seem to be pushing the genetic potential of his test subjects to the absolute extreme, such as with the noise marines, and who doesn't seem to care, from what I can tell, about restraining his experiments.
Still I am sure Fabius himself will be furious once he hears this XD
infact. I would not be surprised if chaos unites more now and fabius steps up his game to compensate.
might come to see more physical differences among the four dark gods' power armored servants if all goes well.
oh I'm just fed up with the lame changes and the fan boys biting at the bait. Been around since 1st edition and I feel they just keep messing the whole thing up. Can't keep up with their own fluff. Can't fix and balance armies. Just tosses around new models, like "look at what we are giving you! Might not be balance, but it's new and shiny". They wonder why their fan base keeps dropping. And before anyone says they have a larger new player base, not really. Even when someone joins, they soon quit over unbalanced armies or costs. Really feel like Eight edition could be good, but it seems like a last ditch effort to bring in new people and at the same time, not truly fix everything they broke.
Apparently after the New Death Guard release they will be redoing the entire range.
I'm gonna start Emperor's Children once I finish my Nurgle Daemons. Can't not love Noise Marines.
I absolutely agree with you. Both on the design of the armor and about the fluff surrounding Primaris Space Marines. 40k used to be the Imperiums desperate struggle to survive in a galaxy full of threats, but apparently now guilliman will fix everything. Glad to hear I'm not the only one weirded out by GW's deus-ex-machina approach to storytelling. They could've just been honest and said: 'Hey, have some amazing new Space Marine sculpts, they are truescale and you can use em if you want, but you can also stick with the older minis.' It's obviois anyways, no point in hiding it...
Battlebrother Phil this is why I fucking hate the ultramarines, nothing seems to truly cause them problems
They will do some super CSM but they'll have daemonic possession and eat themselves on a 4+ before the game starts...
Hahahaha only if Phil Kelly writes the book.
And your only transport option will be a rhino
Also, you must buy banners for all of your units, as well as chaos marks that don't mesh with them. All power-fist armed units will have the mark of Slaanesh, and you must take 3 maxed units of Mutilators in your army, and wear glasses that turn all models on the table into Mutilators. You may only take off the glasses once your eyeballs start to bleed.
"What if we just keep updating chaos' miniature range, but never modify the rules in any meaningful way so they are stuck with shit-tacular units. At the same time, we just keep giving the Loyalists more and more new shit."
"Dude, that's been our only plan with chaos since 4th ed?"
My favourite update was less base attacks for berserkers. that made me want to play them.
They are making the chaos uber marines.. unfortunately they screwed the fluff again and they will be death guard. Rather than Iron Warrior or Fabius' works.
Most people ignore that Fabius was skilled enough to CLONE PRIMARCHS, mind you they were "lesser" but still he clones PRIMARCHS and he cloned Horus.
But muh Guilliman?
Nathaniel Schultz it annoys me how every chaos update the new stuff is exclusive to one chaos sub faction for example death guard models and thousands sons and cannot be universal like Primaris space marines, it's stupid.
Muh Night Lords
1st: If they were lesser primarchs, then they weren't primarchs.
2nd: "Hur durr they don't make exactly what I want so they are screwing up hur durr" This is how idiotic you sound.
1st: He was able to replicate the gene-seed to a lesser extent. Making, in essence, half of a primarch. This made them stronger than the normal marine.
2nd: It's not that they're not making what we want, it's that they're making what SOME people want with shitty lore explanations and giving chaos only exclusive unit updates, not universal like the primaris marines. "Hur durr, I enjoy the expansive buttfucking of GW" that's how idiotic you sound.
I'm going to agree with the broadcaster, that he finally got to a great point. That Cadia gets overwelmed with Super CSM. Via the works of Bile and Honsou. THAT works. And yes, the CSM Dark Vengence Chosen models were awesome. (( not a chaos player))
Cadians haven't had a new mold or unit since like 2004
I find the lore behind Primaris Marines incredibly poor and they look too clean for 40k for me. And yeah, I support Chaos getting them instead.
GW posted no less than 3 times i think telling chaos players that they had stuff in store for them. im sure chaos will be getting something new aswell. i agree with you about the marines tho. i love this new design. my worries come in the fluff department. why not just say "yeah were going truescale, cawl has made new weapons and armor for the space marines" instead of adding ANOTHER type of marine. i say yeah - phase out old marine MODELS not the ACTUALL MARINES.
If you told people their existing space marines were invalidated, they freaked, from managing the game perspective, this was the best way to introduce true scale marines.
I think new marines are a fine thing, they aren't the end of the world. I just think they should have been reactionary to Chaos, but alas, Chaos will stick to new kits of existing units and nothing with an uber high threat factor.
This way it's a fluff abomination.
The Outer Circle > yeah the reveal was bad. i reckon it has to do with the leaks seeing as the dg models are revealed but under lock and key from leaks it seems. it should have been revealed after the dg models Hulking new marines, even bigger terminators - how is the imperium supposed to fight this new threat??. the thing is no matter how reactionairy the response was - a timeskip of well than 100 years of the imperium constantly getting stomped and disintegrating would be needed in my opinion to gice cawl the time needed to get the process rolling, have the fluff state "creation is still under way! we are rolling them out as soon as we can ship them to the chapters"
Chaos Players will get Death Guard.
That's what they said.
Nothing else for chaos.
You’re certainly not wrong. They shit the bed again, with all the build up of the fall of Cadia and all that I was really hoping for a big surge in Chaos maybe I would stop playing my Nids and dust off the old World Eaters but of course it would just be another Space Marine buff and of course it would be Robo Girly Man that would be the new EMPERAH.
In Halo when the Spartan IIIs are introduced they do support the superior Spartan IIs though they are far more expendable. They should have given the Primaris Marines some sort of Caveat. :/ Harder better faster stronger at this early point makes it seem less like a dystopia
I want my "Beast" inspired orks
A lot of people are doing Oruks conversions with Sigmar Ork minis
Yeah, they are pretty sweet models, sadly the price tag scares me a bit, you see my friend we suffer from similar problems, having to buy models with mexican peso hurts lol
Just my two cents. Being a Son of Russ myself from the RT days. GW is going to really have to convince me that newer is better. We just got our 13th company back. We are back up to Legion strength now the Damned Imperium is shoving these newly enhanced marines. Sure I might let them fight along side me but not too sure about excepting them back into the fold. The Wolf Priests, Tech priests, and Rune priests already have their hands full with the wulfen. I see that the wolves do not have the patience nor the additional priests to train these primaris to adopt the same tactics that have been in place since the legions founding. Us wolves are a superstitious lot. We dont like the new nor do we care for the Imperium telling us what to do. I guess we will have to see how they try to work the fluff for the wolves and other non-codex astartes.
They've implied that chaos is getting something to compete, but I think you have a point about the order.
Fluffwise I hope these are basically Thunder Warriors and they will have as much problems as the Original Thunder Warriors did. Guilliman is just grasping at straws for anything to help the dying Imperium. As the other Primarchs come back and go "what the shit, Guilliman" and it causes a schism that is not needed for the Imperium.
I think you just wrote better fluff than GW too.
Thank you, sir
DreadMonkeyFist if it happens any other way I am done with 40k
These new guys look like a bunch of little mini Guillaman's.
Nah, they look way the fuck better because they don't have any of that lame-ass gold trim and swirly filigree for no reason.
I, and many I know, agree with the sentiment that GW dropped the ball on the lore. If they had wanted to, they could have tied in the Primaris with their existing origin to the split Imperium - have one side embrace these new marines under Guilliman, but have the other half remain staunch traditionalists and reject the new Primaris as heretical abomonations. That way you can have your Primaris chapters without using the poorly written timeskip lore to force them on every chapter. Chapters like the Dark Angels would be super suspicious of these guys, and Black Templars would see Mechanicum heresy in messing with the holy gene seed.
While I don't hate Primaris myself, I did spend the last couple of years designing my own chapter who are loyalists, but also traditionalists and have rejected the Primaris. They fight the enemies of Man the way they always have done, as from their perspective it has been doing the job for the last several thousand years.
Chaos should be winning the war. I hope we (chaos) get a primaris analog
i don't like primaris personally but big thing for me at 2020 is they didn't just say hey these are the new armour that can be integrated onto your sm army no these are bad lore new marines that replace your old army.
Great idea to rebuild a faction and add a bunch of new models to it... but maybe do that to line of models that you forgot about for 10 years before the one that’s already a best seller? I am able to build a full space marine army without a single one of these new editions but the elder have what maybe 2 troops choices?
Watching in 2022, I completely, passionately agree with you. It's a symptom of the neglect of Chaos in general by GW. I don't know why this is, but I think these corporate MF'ers are slaves to the normie bias of rooting for "the good guys". They underestimate the intelligence and sophistication of their customer base. If you build it, they will come. Give us amazing Chaos and it'll sell just as well as the Smurfs.
ive been away from tabletop for nearly two decades. looking to return but i just cant reconcile primaris marines. its like when the emperor had thunder warriors and killed them off for space marines. are space marines the new thunder warriors?
You could argue the flare on the knee pad add some protection when kneeling albeit a tiny bit.
So I just figured something out. 1) Matt Ward is back working at GW (August 2016) , 2) Primaris Space Marines Arrive May 2017. Coincidence? NO! Heresy? Definitely. Matt Ward is the un-arguably the 5th Chaos god and the Primaris Space Marines need to be Purged!
I fucking hate the fucking Ward with my bloody heart.
Might want to read up on the 21st founding. Specifically the experiments that were terminated.
Such as Marines that were substantially larger than any marine ever seen before, who seemed fully formed and functional but were terminated while still in their sarcophagi, some of which had been dissected, and all of which had had their geneseed removed.
I don't know that much about it honestly, only bits and pieces, so any direction would be nice, contrary to popular belief I do have an open mind!
GW clearly wanted to update the marine range to make their scale more representative of the lore. Marines stood shoulder to shoulder with guardsmen for decades and that was quite dissatisfying. The only way to properly do that is to upgrade the entire range in one big swoop to avoid scale discrepancies.
Any lore about them being extra special is just a way of smoothing this scale upgrade over. They're not special units, they're the new normal.
This doesn't mean that chaos marines will stay small. Both the new Death Guard and the new Thousand Sons are only slightly shorter than a primaris marine. So the scale increase was already under way. This means that the vanilla Chaos marines are likely to get a scale upgrade as well. Eventually. It's just that the Space Marines are the flagship of the company and by far the most popular army. Starting with them just makes more sense.
I agree with everything you said. I would only make one addition, and that is that if GW had Primaris'd Chaos first and wrote a fluffy thing about Rowboat scrambling to respond it would have given people time to adjust to the idea of the new Primaris marines coming out as a replacement /upgradefor the existing marines, which would have been a lot better than having Superhuman God Soldiers fighting alongside Super-Superhuman God Soldiers. I feel like GW did the little-brother-big-brother dynamic it did because, for some reason, unlike in the last 30-odd years, it felt like it couldn't drop a bunch of new minis on people and say "your old stuff is outdated, time to buy more shit"
Greatings from 2020 where theirs More of them
Your problem with this entire subject.....GW has been fething up the lore and the game since the end of 5th Edition right before 6th Edition was released. The best reason I've seen for all the new stuff like Primaris Marines...GW seeing that they had lost the IP battle in court over "Space Marines" (and a lot of the other stuff they claim IP over), this is all new a shiny IP stuff so they can use the courts and C&D letters to get control again.
Well, it sounds like the new Nurgle marines are supposed to be the the same size as these. I agree that the nurgle marines should have maybe been released first, then the primaris marines. The only real explanation is that Cawl has been working on these marines for the last 10k years, and the explanation could be that guilliman saw the heresy and said the marines of the era and 40k are too weak, and that's why we failed, we need to be better so as to not fail again. And so these boys have been in the works since even before the heresy ended
sometimes new prototypes are scrapped for better ideas. Mark IX may have been scrapped before the primaris marines were issued armor for the better Mark X armor.
edit: changed Mark IV to Mark IX
After a 5 year long wait for something new for my iron warriors to use ( traitor legions didn't give use anything new worth a dam) they better give us more that a few new nurgle models. Hell the oblit and mutalators are still crappy resin.
Traitor Legions was the 5th bandaid applied to chaos since 6E codex. how many bandaids do they need before they just suck it up, admit they fucked the whole book and call a do-over? Oh, that's right, that's impossible for our golden saviours, so instead chaos is now relying on the 8th Edition system to rebalance the range. 33% chance of success, 33% chance of mediocrity and same-ness, 33% chance of failing chaos for a 4th edition in a row.
What i'm worried about is that the only thing they are doing to chaos this time is adding more nurgle stuff and updating their models, calling that an update to the whole of chaos then move on to give marines nice new models and units all chapters can use...o wait they have started doing that already with the new type of marine.
Lie you said in video fabius bile had more open experimentation, testing his creations and learning from the mistakes in open combat, these marines were created in secret but work better ??.
Or how about they update the standard CSM?
maybe cawl was stuck for ages, then came across biles handiwork and created the primaris marines. hopefully theyre succeptible to chaos as part of some mad plan by bile
What I dont like about crawl is that he didn't really give any new units to the admech besides himself but he gave a whole new range of marines out of nowhere
From a narrative stand point it would have made sense for Chaos to get the new marines, but from a marketing and realistic view, being space marine being the most popular and poster boys for 40k, they would want to keep pushing that side of the franchise more to keep new people
interested and old player wanting to update their army
I know I'll get heat for this. But... I would love if the tau after decades of experience in fighting space marines. They either by reverse engineering or by develop it themselves . They get a Space marine equivalent but with it being limited to the humans loyal to them.
The flared out helmet over the ears is to help the edge highlighters.
Interesting points. Given me a lot to talk about. Cheers.
I think the Primaris Marines would have been received if they were introduced AFTER plastic Sisters and Nurgle (OR after a Chaos update). Marines have had so many releases recently that people are tired their armies are getting shafted. Chaos, Orks, fuck, even Eldar are still running resin units of decades old sculpts.
Hate me if you wan't to for this, But the way I belive chaos should be more powerful than the marines is by the chaos space marine being bigger, powerful, diligent, and fearless along with having 10-20 man squads well having not only more vehicles, monsterous creatures, horus herecy vehicles and equipment. But also have expanded demons added to the codex. The cult troops should have there cult wepons that make them special and then take upgrades such as terminator armour, jump packs, bikes, and upgrade the obliterators and mutilators to their specific faction wepons well also having the option of the cult troops taking their mount beside their lords, but zeanch and nurgel need alternative mounts. Also instead of having a heldrake ( hate the model) there should be this flying barge/hull that could take forge feinds and predator wepons and turrets or become a transport for the chaos space marines, terminators, or bikes to travel accross the bord, and any dreadnought, defiler, forge fined muller fined should count as a monstrous creature and take marks well having lots of fire power and attacks. Then the secondary legions such as alpha legion, word bearers, night lords, and iron warriors should unlock a force orge depending on what legion you pick. lastly The chaos lord should be a prator with lots of viable options. Most of all chaos should be able to have more models than the space marines could have on the table with viable rules. what I dont wan't in the codex is the boon table, cultist, heldrake, warp talons, and spawn on in the codex, I wan't to make defirent and new list each and every battle report and experience my army to the full potential. so what do you think every body. I could explain more if you like.
Well, atleast the new chaos rules got rid of the chaos boon, but everything you just said you want out of the codex has gotten much better in the 8th edition, aswell as khorne berserkers.
With the possibilty for daemin to fuse with marines armor, we should expect chaos marines to have better armor and crazy things like fast terminators. But, in 40k its been a while that GW stopped sucking the tasty meat of chaos.
Here's my beef: it's that I am invested in the characters that I have come to know and now they are basically sidelined. Calgar, Dante, etc. I was as much into the drama of seeing these great characters finally seeing the Imperium broken and then having to win it back again. I don't mind new characters, but not new characters that will essentially replace the characters that I was into.
I agree that Chaos should have got this first. But I would have liked this if perhaps the marines we know and love would have also been able to be further enhanced. That way we don't lose the story. I mean, how important is Kayvan Shrike now that there are tons of rookies just... better than him now. Out of the blue. How are custodes special now? How is Logan Grimnar important to the story if every newbie is now just beyond him? If all space marines were subject to an enhancement in response to the enhanced Chaos marines that Fabius bile created and guilliman maybe captured some to dissect and they figured out that there were some things that they had deep in the emperors personal archives that tells them the same thing or even make slightly better versions of what Bile made, but the theres the challenge that they need to withdraw space marine chapters one at a time to enhance them all and provide reenforcement, all while certain planets are falling without space marines to help their astra militarism, then the newly enhanced marines will have to go out and retake what was lost etc. etc. THEN I might have a better time With this.
But as of right now, I don't Iike this, at all. Not even a little bit. It's the story and the characters I was into. Now all my favorite characters are chumps. Hell, even the eldar I liked are now so far surpassed by the primaries that it's pointless to even have elder.
I'm think I'm just done with 40k now.
Very good video once again.
I don't get why one would write these guys into the fluff.
Astartes aren't demi-gods now, like they were before (well...sort off). How do you want to make a Night Lord Veteran of the Heresy a scary enemy for one of those new marines with "better gene seed" (dafuq?).
Or even better than Dante, Khârn etc.
The sculpts look nice tho, that's true.
PS: Fuck... it always depresses me to see how great the fluff you create is and then realize that it's not canon.
I put my money where my mouth is, I can shit better fluff than the 40k design team.
The Outer Circle The sad part is that it's true.
Working my ass off to get into a company which is based in another country across the globe which has zero interest in this country? Hahaha! By making these videos, for free, in my own spare time, videos which generally get pretty positive feedback I'll add, I am doing my bit to say what some people are thinking.
Yes, I am pretty arrogant, I would love to start up my own miniatures company, but currently it's a saturated market, and GW has a 40 year head start, as well as a nigh-unsinkable IP. I work about 50 hours a week running an engineering business, and I'm pretty good at it, but it doesn't leave me that much time to work towards becoming GW's key fluff writer.
Cawl is going to have a lot to answer for to the Fabricator General, if Mars follows tradition.
I think the reason they used fluff reasons to explain bigger marines was
to try to not invalidate older collections and model lines, such as FW
HH marines. Without a fluff explanation of "we have the power to make
bigger marines" mountains of model collections would be suddenly
outdated. By using the distinction of "these are Primaris, these are
not" GW encourages people to keep playing with their old marines and FW
stuff while enticing them to move to Primaris if they wish so.
If they had just went "this is the new size of Space Marines, deal with
it" people would feel the need to scrap and replace their armies or just
quit altogether.
Way back when in the mists of time GW came up with a chapter called the 'mentor legion' they had green and white suits and they were the test bed marines for new tactics and experimental weapons they should have used them as primaris marines
Wait, the Imperium, a force for hope?
I'm confused.
Jimmy Corvus It seems everyone is. In different ways.
People like me and you are confused because we know that the imperium isn't a force for hope (and was never meant to be, from a thematic standpoint), but now there's another big chunk of the fanbase that's going along with it, clearly confused as to the thematic nature of 40k.
Should I make videos on this shit?
How the hell do I open their eyes?
there is a history of missing Mk numbers in development of equipment. for example the spitfires that saw action were the Mki, ii, v, vii, viii, ix, xii, xiv, xvi, xviii, mk19, mk20 mk21. note missing Mk iii, iv, vi.
The larger style ankle armour is actually found on a number of illustrations of mark 8 armour.
It is indeed. It was done first on MK II and III, so I thought I'd nod to that.
the flared out knee parts are to protect joints
A well articulated arguement, and one I happen to agree with. Well done Sir.
Technically, chaos wouldn't ever get armor updates unless they stole it from marines but they're supernatural so armor doesn't matter as much.
I think they should have made them a new faction of marines like the Grey knights(Daemon hunters)or DeathWatch(Xeno’s Hunters) instead of upgraded space marines, but they could be specialized in fighting some other kind of threat to The Imperial way of life
The only thing now is to take the blood sample and recreat Horus again.
Primaris Marines should have been a one-per-army Elite unit as well as Leaders only. For example, you'd have a single Primaris Squad and maybe a few Leaders who were Primaris Marines in your army.
With the Primaris, they're getting Age of Sigmar confused with 40K. In AoS, hope exists. The super soldiers are upstarts. The Stormcast exist because Sigmar is finally throwing the civilized races a bone after thousands of years of Chaos having its way. That same kind of feeling just doesn't mesh with 40K, where the villainous factions are the upstarts, eating away at a crumbling empire.
I agree with you here. Chaos just doesn't have that something. I mean look at death guard. They really need that something..
I thought there was MKXII Armour that the space wolves had. Maybe, I'm wrong.
it's like George Lucas is writing 40k more now.
Now I have been pondering weather they should have just done a time jump. And release it as 50k. Then they could just say this is what space marines are like in the future. Balance it so the new can fight with the old in table top but the story could contunie without destroying the old lore.
well, the reason i don't like primaris isn't the fluff, the look, or breaking up thousands of years of the same armour. i don't like their lack of cutomization. 37 bucks for 10 grey hunters or 50 bucks for 15 blood claws is an amazing deal. super customizeable, super detailed, and super specialized. OR 60 bucks for 10 primaris marines.
just pointin out something, everybody skips 9. windows, gw... that's everybody. but 9 is kind of skipped over.
and as it's 2019 with the new chaos, ERE' WE GO!!!!
my bad, wrong battle cry.
My bet is that the new death guard will be an equivalent to the primaris marine. They will be equal in size and also 2 wounds. Maybe there will be some random fluff excuse for corrupted primaris marines, whatever.
The hint has already been dropped given that the main artwork for the new edition is a primaris marine on the left, and a corrupt primaris marine on the right. Both wearing the same MK X armor. This is the beginning of GW replacing the entire space marine AND chaos space marine lines with truescale and more importantly getting everyone to replace their existing armies with new models that cost $90au for 5 marines.
Having seen the sculpts, they are bigger, but not quite as big IMO. They are very much in MK III and I think they are not going to be as strong, they are weaker marines boosted by chaos, not an inventive new threat. Therein lies the problem.
Ultra Smurfs are a secret revilal of the cursed 21 legion project....and will go caos in the lore eventually as did most of them.
Point of note, some have suggested that the Deathwatch range is in MK IX power armour. I can't see any distinction between that armour and MK VIII, so if it is 'MK XI' it's entirely due to them writing it in the fluff and not conveying it visually. Since MK VIII is still only making its way in small numbers to the chapters, I'd find it strange to be bypassed entirely by the Deathwatch. That said, that codex is a shitfight, so anything could be true.
I suppose this is a roundabout way of me saying I both could be wrong and could owe GW an apology. On that note, why are the Bolt Rifles MK II?
You're talking about R&D... if Mars is developing MK IX and figures that MK X will be ready for mass production early on during MK IX's life span or even earlier, they would cease MK IX and jump straight to X. That's what happens with R&D... It's actually UNCOMMON for a military force to develop and mass produce each model in order because technological advancements skip ahead.. Bolt Rifles being MK II would be the exact same reason, they developed MK I, improved it or changed it, and produced MK II for the Primaris Marines.
You jumped straight to the silly plot line defending it!
But is it really a silly plotline when it's something that actually happens?
Because there have been 8 MK's of armour so far, and each is an evolution of the last. At no point did they just make 50 suits and then say 'nah, not good enough' did they?
Didn't they? How else do you explain a production line jumping from model 8 to 10, or the bolt rifle being a Mk II. It's no different from any other production line, you're bitching because we didn't see the earlier marks.. so what
I'm late to the video, but only recently discovered your channel. My opinion about the primaris is that GW handled the lore completely wrong. I think they should have introduced the Primaris marines as "true scale" models, which people have wanted those for a long time. GW has been gradually increasing the size of the space marine models for the last 30 years, so I think it's fair that these new models could just be truer-to-lore. Guilliman's initiatives could have come in the form of new tactics and wargear; the mk.x armour, the primaris vehicles, the mk.2 bolter. That would have been a lot less dramatic of a change than what we got. I found the whole thing pretty jarring and just stupidly written.
Furthermore, if you look at the Death Guard models they brought out, you can plainly see that they are the exact same size as the primaris, despite being 10,000 year old regular Astartes wearing mk.3 armour. Yeah, they could be "warp-charged" or whatever, but we all know that's bullshit and that CSM have always been about the same size as regular astartes anyway. They're all " warp charged" anyway. That's the point.
Finally, I think it's sad how at the same time they're basically sliding the old Astartes off the table. Special characters get Primaris treatment. The rest of the marines aren't talked about or depicted in artwork, no new models are released, and it's plain to everyone that GW just wants to get rid of them.
The models are nice. I really like them (except that they're mostly monopose now and that limits convertability), but the way that the lore was handled is just critically retarded in my opinion.
it makes sense that Cawl would have managed to perfect these marines over the course of 10k years while fabius "primarch marines" would be horridly mutated crap still. i can see exactaly what you mean by the armour having parts of different armour styles coming together.
They weren't created in his absence (According to the fluff). Gman ordered their creation well before he ever ended up in stasis. But yeah, I agree, they fucked it. They should have just released them as TrueScale marines.
I wonder if the TTS emperor is gonna do something on the new Primaris marines.
The lower legs are the deathwatch design
I think the obvious thing is that the new marines are just a temporary fluff justification to ease people into marine models being a larger scale generally, a sort of half step. Look at the plague marines in the starter box, which are pretty much the same size. I'm pretty sure we'll never see a new marine model from GW at the previous scale, not for 40k anyway, and in two or three editions time 'primaris' won't even be a word anymore, these will just be 'space marines', and the older, smaller models will just be dropped altogether, with a note that players who still have those models can still use them as their new equivalents.
They should have had them made in Ultramar, considering how it's nowhere near as stagnant as the Sol system.
The iPhone 8 went straight to the iPhone X
the imperium is basically the last years of the roman empire before the split into the east and western roman empire, its very much had its glory years
The rules for these have come out, they move faster than marines and have 2 wounds, but no special weapons, going back to squads of heavy / special weapons like Heresy. (Or AoS)
Yes, the Stormcast Eternal business model.
Grey Knights where Aegis, but your point still stands. I also think its stupid they took the clearly most popular faction and add even more powerful stuff to them.
GW wants to make money here's how I would do it:
Lore: (rewind prior to Gathering Storm)
Astronomicon goes out, why, Emperor dies (Lore allowed for this as the Throne was having out of warranty issues).
Warp becomes less hostile (for travel), why, Emperor died?
Eye of Terror (and other warp storms) shrink a little, revealing many core worlds of Chaos Cults / Marines.
Imperium:
Starts to fracture and civil war stirs up since the emperor is gone.
Primarchs return to stabilize, but none have a agreeing view on future for the Imperium.
As a result they split up the Imperium (not in a round table style, but just this is my area keep out).
I see it like this,
Vulkan, his legion have an area around Nocturne
Girlyman in Ultramar with his legions
Dorn (we'll say he returns missing and arm) covering Terra and that area
Lion will be an area around Segmentum Obscurus
Russ with be less about a domain and more just fighting Chaos
Corax and Khan (if he returns) can do stuff too I guess.
Chaos:
Chaos, although the warp retreats a bit it has the effect of unleashing the Chaos Marines, perhaps bored now that there is less to do in the warp or warp gods w/e
Other factions can do stuff, like Eldar make way to push towards the Chaos to start their strike back. Dark Eldar raids become more active since they don't have the drain of Slaanesh (or not as bad) so they can be out of the webway longer.
Orks can do what orks do, through in a super smart ork to have a new Beast scenario, so more tech and different stuff.
Tau, perhaps a civil war as Farsight returns or something.
Necrons, some get souls, start to advance, w/e I don't know.
Tyranids: Kerrigan shows up and renames them Zerg, or w/e
Result:
so many new units and variants. You've split the Imperium into 6 or more mini factions, gives reason to have conflict between them as well as tech developments. Since the old order and religion has been shaken it is logical that much of the stagnation mentality would be shaken too.
This can transfer to other factions as well. Rather than more Super units you have more variants, not just visually but Vulkan's faction can have units with different rules and abilities, etc. That's $$, then for fluff you have a much more dynamic galaxy which leads to more books, battles, and overally the ability to change without just saying, "oh girlyman just came up with these magic super space marines that the emperor could never have done."
Windows 8
Windows 10
Though it's customary to go up in single steps, there's no obligation to do so.
Space Wolves wear MKXII Lupis Armor.
Looking at everything now and what chaos has available I agree with you except for on the point that primaris should have been released originally for chaos. I think what they should have done as they should the release the entire death guard set and then had the primaris release counter to that instead of having chaos get some form of primaris marine. Also I thought the video was vary well executed and it just earned you a new subscriber, don't let the bite from other people get you and jest keep doing what you do
They should have just done a true-scale upgrade instead of trying to work it into the lore
When you mentioned Dark Vengeance, I thought you were going to compare the CSM and SM models to those that came before. They are actually larger, but not by too much. I'd say a head taller.
Not phased about size, that's the least of my problems here tbh. It's more a fluff standpoint, Chaos should have done it first, with the likes of Fabius Bile. A Fabius Bile book would have been the go-to, but hey, GW....
m8 its about truescaling, not everything necessarily but yes purely having marines that actually look tall is a good start.
New nurgle marines are the same as primaris marines for Chaos (confirmed by GW)
"I don't hate them..."
I do lol.
I like these new Marines, basically all they did was make them taller and tweaked the proportions of the marines, now they look like you could actually have supposedly "human" in there
Isnt Deatwatch Armour Mark 9?
I REALLY hope Fabulous Bill cooks up SOMETHING for Chaos. Also, I want Chosen to have their OWN kits without having to bash together Warp Talon head/shoulder/body with normal CSM arm/legs/weaps
There's been talk that the deathwatch armor is mk-9.
So the video is good, but it's not like GW have said there will not be any equivalent to primaris in chaos released later down the line. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a bigger and better stat line in 8th edition for chosen marines. Also we always get a corrupted form or chaos form of imperial units and it won't stop me converting some chaos primaris.
Not saying that I am pissed they don't have them, more annoyed that they missed a great chance to nail the threat factor with good fluff.
This is what they did to warhammer fantasy, huge release of new models then they will completely redo 40k :((, it has begun.
If chaos had these the imperium would be dead
I have to say I do like the sculpts and will be getting some for my dark angels , but hopefully chaos will get something equivalent or at least they should .
It's like poetry, it rhymes.
0:56 i know for a fact that sperm-guzzling persons with Down's-Syndrome would NEVER choose to work at Games Workshop.
You bring a valid point. Fabius Bile's been playing the game for millenia, though it's only possible as for all we know he might still be missing a key point to be able to produce an army of primarchs. Whereas, we got Mary Sue Pappa Smurf pulls the Mary Sue of Mary Sues and was like, "LAWL! JOKES ON YOU! WE HAD THIS ALL ALONG!"
Being a Space Marine player, I honestly both love and hate the Primaris Marines. Here's the reason why I hate them:
The Imperium is dying. All "new" technological advancements that have been happening in the fluff of the 41st millennium have all been archaeological finds of technology that used to be mass produced millennia ago. So I find it funny how we suddenly got this "hidden" facility on Mars that's been in the works for 10,000 years that started work at the HEIGHT of Space Marine loyalty fear. Hell, Papa Smurf broke the legions so as to prevent another Horus Heresy, so WHY would they start building an army of the same post-humans that are even STRONGER than the ones who went on a rampage across the galaxy? Especially when it's been shown that Astartes DO go rogue. The only way to prevent this from being a repeat of history is if these Primaris Marines all have the same mental fortitude of Grey Knights.