Brief mention of pairing Abaddon with Chosen, I've found this to be quite powerful. Chosen's biggest weakness is that they're sort of glass cannons, but with Abbadon's ability to give them all a 4+ Invulnerable save it drastically increases their survivability against any sort of AP.
that's the way warhammer has always worked. change. change is always good otherwise stagnation begins. anyone who complains about the new editions or updates is a fragile mind not worth talking to. rules are temporary, models are forever. get some perspective.
@@joheric8886 you sound like a GW fanbois. 10th ed has been a mess with all the rules changes and breakages and underwhelming codexes. You do realise that not all change is good? I assembled a gaming group and know of other players and the only people still playing 40K are hardcore tourney goers. 40K changes to make money and, over recent editions, to suit tourney players but its increasingly bland and not fun.
@@MedTech37572 yes. NEVER play competitive warhammer just to play competitive warhammer. you play because it's plastic army men that you tell lame personal stories with using someone elses intellectual property. fun is priority, not wins. these people are damaged.
0:50 - CSM are struggling. A lot of folks are saying that CSM has portnetial and yet on an inernational basis they are still struggling. Why is that, I'll explain: Comes down to a few points: Overcosted units: Most units are still costed as pre-codex. A prime example of this is the Forgefiend. It used to be worth 190pts when you could slap the Nurgle Lone Op. Stratagem on him but now that's been nerfed to 18" it's more expensive than a Vindicator for a gun that isn't as good. Raptors are another example which went up 10pts for no reason. Possessed are overly expensive now they can't seem to get FnP on them anymore. Most units need to be cheaper Most Detachments are bad: Most detachments such as Deceptors and Dread Talons should be thriving in a Pariah Nexus Environment with the reliance of Battleline Units but aren't simply because externally speaking they need a heavy points investment of upto 1600pts to get the core of their detachment engine to work in a list, and rely heavily on jumping through several hoops of set up to get working meanwhile you could just play WE have Aangron and Kharn with 'Zerks in a Land Raider and get guaranteed T1 charges and mop up the heavy lifters without much, if any, resistance early game. Or be Sisters or Thousand Sons where you have a free in-game currency with no drawbacks for extra punch, buff or debuff skills with Cabal Points and Faith Dice. It’s not worth the setup in the early game. Low OC Army: Most of our army is OC1. Unsure if compared to externally but the only things that are more than OC1 in CSM is Legionaries, characters, and Tanks. Everything else is OC1. Low, high-damage army: In the CSM codex there is only one weapon that does D:4 and that's on obliterators. Nothing else, not even Abaddon has a higher damage value with the exclusion of D6+1 Damage. We can get volumes and access to dev wounds but relying on the swing of the dice is inefficient in a competitive environment which is obsessed with optimal consistency.
The Accursed Cultists absolutely deserve a spot on the list...Chaos Cult is the most consistently well performing detachment out of the codex. It's probably the objectively strongest way to play CSM right now. You couldn't pay me to play Cultist Horde, though, not at all what I like in CSM and not my style of play.
@@hammock1804 They're still insanely good right now. Probably not worth taking 3 bricks anymore outside of Chaos Cultists, but they're stupidly effective at what they do.
@@Xynth25 That's another thing GW took away that I was using, Cult mobs with firearms. Nurgling OC was taken, the Exalted Chosen, I bought Cypher for his ability and its reduced to an aura. Every time I want to use something nice in CSM, GW takes it away. We can't even use Warptalons how rules are written
@hammock1804 Uh...Warptalons are fantastic right now idk what you're on? Cypher is also in most lists, he's strong AF. You don't seem to be able to evaluate the current strengths of units, and if you're acquiring models to chase the current 3-6 month cycle you're putting yourself in the hole, that's not on GW.
@Xynth25 If I buy a model then I should be able to use the abilities in the book. What's the point in investing in an army that's just gonna change because they made minis slightly better
My preferred use for the Vindicator is in the Soulforged Warpack. Set it up by a Warpsmith with Tempting Addendum and a Helbrute, possess it (obviously) and have the Warpsmith buff it. When you Dark Pact that gives you +1 to hit with full re-rolls, +1 to wound, Sustained Hits and Lethal Hits. The hit bonus makes fishing for crits almost completely risk-free. The first time I tried this combo it one-shotted a Gorkanaut from full wounds. Obliterators are _very_ sad now. Their melta profile is too short-ranged to effectively use from Deep Strike and is far too unreliable with just D3 shots, and the other two profiles do nothing you can't do better with other shooting units from further away. How far they've fallen.
The Obliterators are sadly a bit of a joke now yes. Shame, as both them and the possessed are such iconic. I wish the MoP had an aura where he simply boosted their speed and strength/+1 to wound of both the Possessed and Obliterators. So hard to use M4 Obliterators where enemies have to be within 9" for full effect...
@@wayoflifefitness5622 yea. Him granting +1 strength would have helped differentiating possessed a bit more from all the other S5 type infantry at least. Win-win.
Thank you! I appreciate this list. It will inform my first 2k list. Although I do want to play with either Maulerfiends or War Dog Karnivores in my list. lol
Defi is viable, at least in my games. Pop him on an objective, preferably one closer to home base, and just start using him as artillery. I've had it work every single time I use him. His durability combined with his fairly potent ranged and melee combat ability can make him scary
Gotta say I love the chaos codex. It's been fun trying out the detachments. My only issue is GW constantly altering things with it 😂 Also GIVE ME BASTION PLATE ON MY TERMINATOR LORD GW! GODS BE DAMNED!!
I mean...honestly, I'd say just run it anyway. They'd be crazy if they came out and said yeah, it's definitely not meant to have the bastion plate. that's like, half the point of the damn upgrade, to make termis tougher.
I've actually had some success with a defiler, especially in soulforge warpack. I've found him to be a big scary thing that people focus on, and is a relatively versatile shooter and melee attacker
I’ve been trialing Renegade Raiders as my detachment of choice because speed and cutting through armour happen to match up very nicely for my Emperor’s Children while I wait patiently for them to finally get a real army setup, and boy has it been doing wonders, and with that context I’d like to point to Noise Marines in RR. Sure they’re not amazing but for close-range shooting that’s fairly cheap, wants to get in close and fast and loves the AP boost to go with ignoring cover, they’ve surprisingly pulled their weight as my Battleline of choice and especially with some Blastmasters going, although I will admit that Legionaries are much better for melee
Taking two predators and putting a hellbrute between them is a strategy that while I haven't played, seems like it could be very potent. It splits your wound count between three models meaning it won't get wiped turn 1 (ideally), sustained+lethals in pactbound mean you can punch reliably with the autocannon against targets that you might not otherwise, and the hellbrute offers some melee threat to defend the preds. Use the nurgle strat probably to preserve the hellbrute more than anything, since his durability is piss poor and I see him being an easy target to get rid of the lethal hits
I have a band blade kit and I want to make it a chaos/khorne variant. Anyone know where to find spikey bits? I don’t have a chaos army. It’s a project.
@@captaincorundum9788 Has anyone won any decen-sized tournaments with it yet? Seems to be Raiders, Cult and the Zealot one that has done so as far as I'm aware. The Warppack has had some play as well, but not sure it has won anything or not.
Plague Marines in Pactbound Zealots deserve an honourable mention. With built in lethal hits, and Dark Pacting for sustained hits you can get a decent amount of damage out of them. Especially in shooting where they get criticals on a 5+.
Plague Marines can't dark pact, same goes for berserkers and rubrics. Only noise marines can dark pact, the rest have different faction keyword ability, which isn't dark pact
@@SpawnmanGG Read the codex, page 85. They change their faction keyword to Heretic Astartes. So they can Dark Pact, along with Rubrics, Berserkers and Noise Marines.
I alway run one or two 5 x Possessed, they are great at getting up the mid board fast and tieing up the other players units. Also Venomcrawlers have a great shooting proflie for taking out mid tier units and the speed for getting on Objectives, especially in Raider det.
The disco lord is such a cool model, shame it sucks, and the amount of time and effort the heldrake took me, it deserves to be excellent just for the punishment of painting it 😂
Seems like the units we typically see in the lists that are actually winning for the most part for sure. I hope we get to see a bit more of their data cards actually be viable though, so that perhaps some more detachments can get to see some play and the faction as a whole creep a bit closer to a 50% win-rate at least. CSM seem to have a bit to few units competing for the same roles (a lot of S5 infantry units for example) and funnily enough CSM have supposedly "Epic" characters that are barely on par with generic SM ones (Huron and Haken for example) and even Abaddon is kind of flawed as he is much to easy to kill once he shows his 295+ point face (which he needs to to help generate CP's). Something probably needs fixing with some of their detachment rules as well. 38% win-rate for Veterans of the Long War seems worth a mention at least...
Only one I'll fight you on is Haarkan. My boy has been a staple of my army. Him leading a 10-man unit of raptors have caused nothing but problems for everyone I've played, and he himself has consistently taken down most characters and has even brought down armour with his helspear
@@gavinziozios1431 He has some punch to him true, but his granting mortal wounds to his squad when charging feels a bit anticlimactic for an epic hero when you see SM's just have this built-in on their Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs... I there is an argument for the SM with Jump Pack Captain at 85 pts is better than Haarken as well, especially with a Thunder Hammer. 1 CP per round can be massive. I see Harken as "ok", but far from living up to being "epic" in any sense. You can do well with him though, as you seem to do. 🙂
@@runeh3022 I can agree with that. I'm still sore that SM captains just get that built in, where I have to take a unique unit to be able to do the same thing
I really want to use my Terminators and Possessed and want to buy some Obliterators. I think those three kits are super cool looking at I am looking forward to them getting lowered in points. It is hard for me to take Terminators/Obliterators over a Vindicator or Possessed over Chosen at the current point costs.
Hey man, great video! Can you do a video on durability of the factions and how to improve it? Like Space wolves FNP, Tyranids regeneration startagem and invulnerable saves. I am trying to build a bulky SM list. Thank you!
We just need them to reverse some of the points nerfs and we’ll be back around the 45 -50% win rate We got rules and points nerfs at the same time, the whole armies internal balance is messed up now. Pre codex a lot more variety of units were being played, the biggest problem with the recent update is they hit units that weren’t even played a lot. And that’s why you see the same units over and over, chaos has damage but where actually not that tough and atm I believe we are being costed only taking into account our damage and not our durability. These are the changes that we need to make and a lot of csm players are of a like mind. The other big problem is because of the inflated points costs, when we lose a couple of units it feels like we’ve lost a lot more. Abandon 250 Venomcrawler 110 Legos 80 Havoks 120 Possessed 115 Oblits 150 Forgefiend 180 Anti tank pred 130 There’s a few more but these would fix the internal balance and we would see more variety of units being taken We took pretty big rules nerfs we didn’t need such heavy points nerfs too. Also we are actually in the lower half of the bottom Tier atm
By Legos, you mean legionnaires? I'll fight you on that one, actually. Throw a sorcerer on them, and give them all chainswords. Bonus if you make it a 10-man unit. Deleted a whole 20-man Boyz unit+weirdboy in a single round of combat with 60+ attacks from Dark Pacts and such. I always have at least one such unit in almost every list
@@gavinziozios1431 legos aren’t bad on an objective, they die to a light breeze though, and the sorcerer is overpriced. With a lord they become a bit better but adding a MOE they out damage legos anyway. Just run them in 5s with Slanesh if pactbound, otherwise we have better units that do the same thing. Just take AC/DC Or if you want cheaper, chosen with a lord. Just my opinion though, the Meta is different in different areas.
Can I put 5 chosen and 5 legionaries in at the same time or do you have to choose between chosen and legionaries then max the 12 units number out from there?
Loss of two damge is bad but they are pretty great at tearing apart tougher infantry squads I just deploy them on the line and keep them ready near the middle objective
good rundown - thks! pretty new to 40k and surprised by how sensitive list-making is to all the tinkering GW seems to do in the points costings and unit abilities. general q's - am i right that they release dataslate updates every quarter? how much do they care abt the community's perception that something is over-costed and react? specific q - do u think csm can expect a points revision for these units which are almost universally viewed as too costly like posessed/oblits/havocs? or will the top table success in more experienced hands make that unlikely?
The worse thing in Chaos codex is Pact Bound Zealots. Each detachment is Undivided except PBZ which is hellbent on making each unit choose a chaos god. And we all know shooting chooses Nurgle and melee chooses Slaanesh. Khorne and Tzeentch get mostly sidelined. In fact the enhancements force you to pick one god over all. 4/6 Strats force you to pick a specific god over all. Unlike the other detachments you are stuck with limited picks. Easy fix: just like the other detachments you can use everything while being undivided. And if you want to make it harder to use, any of the advanced mark Strats or dark pacts is based on having a character leading in the unit which would justify the stronger connection to the chaos gods.
People are sleeping on the helldrake wirh strats and the new jump pack meta. Take him in soulforge, 1cp 20" move through walls with anti fly 2 and +2 atk. Or the 1cp auto 6 flamer in vets.
I wonder with us not getting any news on the four chosen chaos legions or deamons do you think they could be putting deamons into the faction books like age of sigmar?
the vindicator is the GOAT 185 is costly as hell but its fucking worth it for one of the best fucking guns in the game maybe its a little too inconsistent for some, which i get. but an average of 6 shots doing an average of 3 damage each? sometimes even *more* because its a blast weapon??? can't be beat!
I'm a bit bummed about the tank meta right now, I really dislike assembling and painting them. Magnetizing them for transport is a little more effort too.
@@joheric8886 I guess I think it's counterintuitive to use the tanks in reverse compared to real ones, hiding the heavy armour behind expendable chaff i.e. comrades, just feels imposing.
I don't know how experienced a player you are, but I would get the units you like the look off astheticslly, and those that you enjoy the lore and fighting style off. It is a personal choice and even 1000pt is a big time and cost investment. Have fun putting it together though!
It’s not that they are absolutely strong or broken, these units are the strong but somewhat balanced. Also: legionaries have wound reroll only in melee attacks I think
One of the best combos in PBZ is Chaos Termy 10man blob with a Termy Sorcerer marked as tzeentch, with combi-bolters and 2 autocannons. You deepstrike them in with a 3” window for rapid fire, get death hex on an enemy for ap-1, then fire 36 combi-bolter shots at them with 5+ lethals and full hit rerolls. And thats before withfire and the autocannons and melee.
I'm not saying they mechanically shouldn't, but it's a bit weird, too me, that Chaos Space Marines, as in the default Troops choice, is comparable to the thousands of years in the making, miracle Primaris Marines. Other than maybe a couple of Stratagems, are they really too different, now? And they are basically the same as Firstborn Astartes. Lunatics like Fabius Bile have certainly done sone high science nightmares, but it's good to know Chaos needed nothing, really, to stay caught up. I am going to complain, a little, though, about Chaos Bikers. These are just one more reason I hate the Primaris Outriders, or whatever they are called. I used to like Space Marines Bikes; they could almost justify having to do that much white paint, and kit-bashing, to make White Scars as they should be, but now they are just not good, even with a whole detachment dedicated to it, and a Chapter that wants it. Why are Marines on wolves,, or "Firstborn" CSM, BOTH better than "enhanced" Primaris, on new bikes made specifically for them? There's a couple of custom bike characters I'd love to try, and they'd probably both still be White Scars theme, bur it's too bad they are just one more shortcoming of the Loyalist Astartes codex, compared to playing Divergent, or Chaos. If I were going to run Chaos I imagine it would be Iron Warriors, and I'm not sure hoe many of these would feature in that, but still nice to see what works for them!
Says a lot about how shit the Chaos codex is when even Auspex couldn't make the list a _TOP TEN..._ GW, 10th is fucking dire. Why are you setting yourselves on fire to stay warm? Are you just trying to make 11th look much better by comparison?
You’ll usually be dark pacting for sustained which you already have on your heavy bolters so makes sense to take the lascannons Only exception might be into a horde army and in raiders where you can get the extra AP
I like my 15 terminator and dont care if they are not optimal
I love the models and hop they never get replaced, but yes, far from optimal sadly...
@@runeh3022 everytime i show my list i say "yep a quarter of that is terminator" even more when i add the sorcerer
You sound just like my iron warrior buddy
I don't know what buzzwords the kids use these days but I think this statement qualifies as based, chad, or something along those lines
Same😂
Bricks are playable, what is this, 2001?!
Brief mention of pairing Abaddon with Chosen, I've found this to be quite powerful. Chosen's biggest weakness is that they're sort of glass cannons, but with Abbadon's ability to give them all a 4+ Invulnerable save it drastically increases their survivability against any sort of AP.
Agree, also they deliver Abaddon into the fight with advance and charge.
If you told me Predator tanks were a top unit like 2 years ago I'd of never believed you!
They are crap compared to other factions but they’re some of the best chaos get which explains why the faction is near bottom
that's the way warhammer has always worked. change. change is always good otherwise stagnation begins. anyone who complains about the new editions or updates is a fragile mind not worth talking to. rules are temporary, models are forever. get some perspective.
@@joheric8886 you sound like a GW fanbois. 10th ed has been a mess with all the rules changes and breakages and underwhelming codexes. You do realise that not all change is good? I assembled a gaming group and know of other players and the only people still playing 40K are hardcore tourney goers. 40K changes to make money and, over recent editions, to suit tourney players but its increasingly bland and not fun.
A good reason to always buy the models you like vs buying the meta.
@@MedTech37572 yes. NEVER play competitive warhammer just to play competitive warhammer. you play because it's plastic army men that you tell lame personal stories with using someone elses intellectual property. fun is priority, not wins. these people are damaged.
0:50 - CSM are struggling. A lot of folks are saying that CSM has portnetial and yet on an inernational basis they are still struggling. Why is that, I'll explain:
Comes down to a few points:
Overcosted units:
Most units are still costed as pre-codex. A prime example of this is the Forgefiend. It used to be worth 190pts when you could slap the Nurgle Lone Op. Stratagem on him but now that's been nerfed to 18" it's more expensive than a Vindicator for a gun that isn't as good. Raptors are another example which went up 10pts for no reason. Possessed are overly expensive now they can't seem to get FnP on them anymore. Most units need to be cheaper
Most Detachments are bad:
Most detachments such as Deceptors and Dread Talons should be thriving in a Pariah Nexus Environment with the reliance of Battleline Units but aren't simply because externally speaking they need a heavy points investment of upto 1600pts to get the core of their detachment engine to work in a list, and rely heavily on jumping through several hoops of set up to get working meanwhile you could just play WE have Aangron and Kharn with 'Zerks in a Land Raider and get guaranteed T1 charges and mop up the heavy lifters without much, if any, resistance early game. Or be Sisters or Thousand Sons where you have a free in-game currency with no drawbacks for extra punch, buff or debuff skills with Cabal Points and Faith Dice. It’s not worth the setup in the early game.
Low OC Army:
Most of our army is OC1. Unsure if compared to externally but the only things that are more than OC1 in CSM is Legionaries, characters, and Tanks. Everything else is OC1.
Low, high-damage army:
In the CSM codex there is only one weapon that does D:4 and that's on obliterators. Nothing else, not even Abaddon has a higher damage value with the exclusion of D6+1 Damage. We can get volumes and access to dev wounds but relying on the swing of the dice is inefficient in a competitive environment which is obsessed with optimal consistency.
i'm doing fine, maybe you need practice?
Dark Commune are deadly, as is the Forgefiend
yeah, that's what i thought. everyone is quick to cry when they cant figure it out alone.
@@joheric8886 youre delusional wtf
The Accursed Cultists absolutely deserve a spot on the list...Chaos Cult is the most consistently well performing detachment out of the codex. It's probably the objectively strongest way to play CSM right now. You couldn't pay me to play Cultist Horde, though, not at all what I like in CSM and not my style of play.
Accursed Cultists lost Regen and Objective control. The only reasons I got them in the first place
@@hammock1804 They're still insanely good right now. Probably not worth taking 3 bricks anymore outside of Chaos Cultists, but they're stupidly effective at what they do.
@@Xynth25 That's another thing GW took away that I was using, Cult mobs with firearms. Nurgling OC was taken, the Exalted Chosen, I bought Cypher for his ability and its reduced to an aura. Every time I want to use something nice in CSM, GW takes it away. We can't even use Warptalons how rules are written
@hammock1804 Uh...Warptalons are fantastic right now idk what you're on? Cypher is also in most lists, he's strong AF. You don't seem to be able to evaluate the current strengths of units, and if you're acquiring models to chase the current 3-6 month cycle you're putting yourself in the hole, that's not on GW.
@Xynth25 If I buy a model then I should be able to use the abilities in the book. What's the point in investing in an army that's just gonna change because they made minis slightly better
My preferred use for the Vindicator is in the Soulforged Warpack. Set it up by a Warpsmith with Tempting Addendum and a Helbrute, possess it (obviously) and have the Warpsmith buff it. When you Dark Pact that gives you +1 to hit with full re-rolls, +1 to wound, Sustained Hits and Lethal Hits. The hit bonus makes fishing for crits almost completely risk-free. The first time I tried this combo it one-shotted a Gorkanaut from full wounds.
Obliterators are _very_ sad now. Their melta profile is too short-ranged to effectively use from Deep Strike and is far too unreliable with just D3 shots, and the other two profiles do nothing you can't do better with other shooting units from further away. How far they've fallen.
The Obliterators are sadly a bit of a joke now yes. Shame, as both them and the possessed are such iconic. I wish the MoP had an aura where he simply boosted their speed and strength/+1 to wound of both the Possessed and Obliterators. So hard to use M4 Obliterators where enemies have to be within 9" for full effect...
@@runeh3022yeah, it’s a shame how bad the MOP is now since he lost his fnp buff
@@wayoflifefitness5622 yea. Him granting +1 strength would have helped differentiating possessed a bit more from all the other S5 type infantry at least. Win-win.
I did have Abaddon kill half of my opponent's army last game, dude is cracked.
Auspex Tactics, amazing video keep it up bro
Thank you! I appreciate this list. It will inform my first 2k list. Although I do want to play with either Maulerfiends or War Dog Karnivores in my list. lol
Still waiting for the day GW makes the heldrake and defiler playable. I love my robo-dragon and crabwalker.
Defi is viable, at least in my games. Pop him on an objective, preferably one closer to home base, and just start using him as artillery. I've had it work every single time I use him. His durability combined with his fairly potent ranged and melee combat ability can make him scary
Predator annihilator is a really solid anti tank option with dark pacts, especially in pactbound with mark of nurgle
Gotta say I love the chaos codex. It's been fun trying out the detachments. My only issue is GW constantly altering things with it 😂
Also GIVE ME BASTION PLATE ON MY TERMINATOR LORD GW! GODS BE DAMNED!!
I mean...honestly, I'd say just run it anyway. They'd be crazy if they came out and said yeah, it's definitely not meant to have the bastion plate. that's like, half the point of the damn upgrade, to make termis tougher.
The codex is terrible, what are you talking about. Did you play in 9th?
I'm surprised more people don't brings triple ectoplasma cannon forgefiend. With pactbound it is NASTY. Just deletes elite troops.
The 9 top units eh... Coincidence? I think not
Love ur videos. Fairly new to the hobby and ur videos are nice to watch and understand the units.
I've actually had some success with a defiler, especially in soulforge warpack. I've found him to be a big scary thing that people focus on, and is a relatively versatile shooter and melee attacker
I’ve been trialing Renegade Raiders as my detachment of choice because speed and cutting through armour happen to match up very nicely for my Emperor’s Children while I wait patiently for them to finally get a real army setup, and boy has it been doing wonders, and with that context I’d like to point to Noise Marines in RR. Sure they’re not amazing but for close-range shooting that’s fairly cheap, wants to get in close and fast and loves the AP boost to go with ignoring cover, they’ve surprisingly pulled their weight as my Battleline of choice and especially with some Blastmasters going, although I will admit that Legionaries are much better for melee
Taking two predators and putting a hellbrute between them is a strategy that while I haven't played, seems like it could be very potent. It splits your wound count between three models meaning it won't get wiped turn 1 (ideally), sustained+lethals in pactbound mean you can punch reliably with the autocannon against targets that you might not otherwise, and the hellbrute offers some melee threat to defend the preds. Use the nurgle strat probably to preserve the hellbrute more than anything, since his durability is piss poor and I see him being an easy target to get rid of the lethal hits
I have a band blade kit and I want to make it a chaos/khorne variant. Anyone know where to find spikey bits?
I don’t have a chaos army. It’s a project.
Add a warpsmith and go set on the center
That’s half the Abby castle you play it in Pactbound and use Abby’s rerolls to fish for crits
So what I got from this entire video was:
Lots of good options -> Unless you play Deceptors.
or Veterans of the Long War which somewhat ironically are meant to be using many of the mentioned units... :-/
Deceptors has play, it is just an incredibly hard to use detachment
@@captaincorundum9788 Has anyone won any decen-sized tournaments with it yet? Seems to be Raiders, Cult and the Zealot one that has done so as far as I'm aware. The Warppack has had some play as well, but not sure it has won anything or not.
Fellhammer's still fucking stupid. A detachment that's all about keeping at range, with an army that does more damage in melee.
@@anonamarth4291Yeah, that's my biggest gripe with that one as well
Plague Marines in Pactbound Zealots deserve an honourable mention. With built in lethal hits, and Dark Pacting for sustained hits you can get a decent amount of damage out of them. Especially in shooting where they get criticals on a 5+.
Plague Marines can't dark pact, same goes for berserkers and rubrics.
Only noise marines can dark pact, the rest have different faction keyword ability, which isn't dark pact
@@SpawnmanGG Read the codex, page 85. They change their faction keyword to Heretic Astartes.
So they can Dark Pact, along with Rubrics, Berserkers and Noise Marines.
@@chrisbingley Yeah but they don't gain dark pacts keyword. Check better
Only noise marines have the keyword dark pacts.
I alway run one or two 5 x Possessed, they are great at getting up the mid board fast and tieing up the other players units. Also Venomcrawlers have a great shooting proflie for taking out mid tier units and the speed for getting on Objectives, especially in Raider det.
Disco lords were a power house last edition.
This edition they are absolute doo-doo water.
The disco lord is such a cool model, shame it sucks, and the amount of time and effort the heldrake took me, it deserves to be excellent just for the punishment of painting it 😂
lord discord works in pactboud zealots.
The heresy tanks are awesome to use if you want some cool modelling options.
I’ve had a forgefiend/maulerfiend taking dust for many years amd finally built it, how is it performing rn?
They are good. Depends on thé detachment however
Seems like the units we typically see in the lists that are actually winning for the most part for sure. I hope we get to see a bit more of their data cards actually be viable though, so that perhaps some more detachments can get to see some play and the faction as a whole creep a bit closer to a 50% win-rate at least.
CSM seem to have a bit to few units competing for the same roles (a lot of S5 infantry units for example) and funnily enough CSM have supposedly "Epic" characters that are barely on par with generic SM ones (Huron and Haken for example) and even Abaddon is kind of flawed as he is much to easy to kill once he shows his 295+ point face (which he needs to to help generate CP's). Something probably needs fixing with some of their detachment rules as well. 38% win-rate for Veterans of the Long War seems worth a mention at least...
100% agree on all fronts
Only one I'll fight you on is Haarkan. My boy has been a staple of my army. Him leading a 10-man unit of raptors have caused nothing but problems for everyone I've played, and he himself has consistently taken down most characters and has even brought down armour with his helspear
@@gavinziozios1431 He has some punch to him true, but his granting mortal wounds to his squad when charging feels a bit anticlimactic for an epic hero when you see SM's just have this built-in on their Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs...
I there is an argument for the SM with Jump Pack Captain at 85 pts is better than Haarken as well, especially with a Thunder Hammer. 1 CP per round can be massive.
I see Harken as "ok", but far from living up to being "epic" in any sense. You can do well with him though, as you seem to do. 🙂
@@runeh3022 I can agree with that. I'm still sore that SM captains just get that built in, where I have to take a unique unit to be able to do the same thing
@@gavinziozios1431 yea. sort of like their generic Captain in Phobos Armour makes Huron look a bit comparatively silly :-P
I really want to use my Terminators and Possessed and want to buy some Obliterators. I think those three kits are super cool looking at I am looking forward to them getting lowered in points. It is hard for me to take Terminators/Obliterators over a Vindicator or Possessed over Chosen at the current point costs.
Hey man, great video! Can you do a video on durability of the factions and how to improve it? Like Space wolves FNP, Tyranids regeneration startagem and invulnerable saves. I am trying to build a bulky SM list. Thank you!
We just need them to reverse some of the points nerfs and we’ll be back around the 45 -50% win rate
We got rules and points nerfs at the same time, the whole armies internal balance is messed up now. Pre codex a lot more variety of units were being played, the biggest problem with the recent update is they hit units that weren’t even played a lot. And that’s why you see the same units over and over, chaos has damage but where actually not that tough and atm I believe we are being costed only taking into account our damage and not our durability.
These are the changes that we need to make and a lot of csm players are of a like mind. The other big problem is because of the inflated points costs, when we lose a couple of units it feels like we’ve lost a lot more.
Abandon 250
Venomcrawler 110
Legos 80
Havoks 120
Possessed 115
Oblits 150
Forgefiend 180
Anti tank pred 130
There’s a few more but these would fix the internal balance and we would see more variety of units being taken
We took pretty big rules nerfs we didn’t need such heavy points nerfs too. Also we are actually in the lower half of the bottom
Tier atm
By Legos, you mean legionnaires? I'll fight you on that one, actually. Throw a sorcerer on them, and give them all chainswords. Bonus if you make it a 10-man unit. Deleted a whole 20-man Boyz unit+weirdboy in a single round of combat with 60+ attacks from Dark Pacts and such. I always have at least one such unit in almost every list
@@gavinziozios1431 legos aren’t bad on an objective, they die to a light breeze though, and the sorcerer is overpriced. With a lord they become a bit better but adding a MOE they out damage legos anyway. Just run them in 5s with Slanesh if pactbound, otherwise we have better units that do the same thing. Just take AC/DC
Or if you want cheaper, chosen with a lord.
Just my opinion though, the Meta is different in different areas.
@@joshdown-wc7po Sorcerer? Overpriced? I refuse to believe it. The dude has done some heavy lifting for me, most notable in Dread Talons
@@gavinziozios1431 unfortunately dread talons are the weakest detachment
@@joshdown-wc7po I know, but I don't care. I don't play to meta, I play to have fun
Can I put 5 chosen and 5 legionaries in at the same time or do you have to choose between chosen and legionaries then max the 12 units number out from there?
Obliterators are fun as hell to run
Too bad they suck now
They ain't that bad tbh just overshadowed
They are really bad right now
They changed the range on the melts profile so you can’t DS them in melts range at 170pts there garbage
Loss of two damge is bad but they are pretty great at tearing apart tougher infantry squads I just deploy them on the line and keep them ready near the middle objective
Thanks for the content
good rundown - thks! pretty new to 40k and surprised by how sensitive list-making is to all the tinkering GW seems to do in the points costings and unit abilities.
general q's - am i right that they release dataslate updates every quarter? how much do they care abt the community's perception that something is over-costed and react?
specific q - do u think csm can expect a points revision for these units which are almost universally viewed as too costly like posessed/oblits/havocs? or will the top table success in more experienced hands make that unlikely?
The worse thing in Chaos codex is Pact Bound Zealots. Each detachment is Undivided except PBZ which is hellbent on making each unit choose a chaos god. And we all know shooting chooses Nurgle and melee chooses Slaanesh. Khorne and Tzeentch get mostly sidelined. In fact the enhancements force you to pick one god over all. 4/6 Strats force you to pick a specific god over all. Unlike the other detachments you are stuck with limited picks.
Easy fix: just like the other detachments you can use everything while being undivided. And if you want to make it harder to use, any of the advanced mark Strats or dark pacts is based on having a character leading in the unit which would justify the stronger connection to the chaos gods.
I loke those old tanks but im so atraid to buy them as they will replace them probably in next edition
I love basically whatever is not good for tournaments lol
10 Legionaries+ sorcerer + fellhammer
chosen sound even better for this
@@nono-ld2dkBut chosen are also more expensive
People are sleeping on the helldrake wirh strats and the new jump pack meta. Take him in soulforge, 1cp 20" move through walls with anti fly 2 and +2 atk. Or the 1cp auto 6 flamer in vets.
Out of the 9 units, I have 3 in my crusade force, I should probably invest in a predator or something
I wonder with us not getting any news on the four chosen chaos legions or deamons do you think they could be putting deamons into the faction books like age of sigmar?
I've wondered this too. But what do they do with Belakor? Too late to put him in the CSM codex 🤔
@@mezzanine85 maybe just put him and vashtorr in all the books or a PDF with rules to play a all deamon list
@@mezzanine85 There's always Legends...
I run 5 terminator w/ terminator lord
the vindicator is the GOAT
185 is costly as hell but its fucking worth it for one of the best fucking guns in the game
maybe its a little too inconsistent for some, which i get. but an average of 6 shots doing an average of 3 damage each? sometimes even *more* because its a blast weapon??? can't be beat!
Shoulda been top 8
TS cultists still have special weapons and 5+ invun but 55 points? That'll change.
I'm a bit bummed about the tank meta right now, I really dislike assembling and painting them. Magnetizing them for transport is a little more effort too.
what else do you not like?
@@joheric8886 I guess I think it's counterintuitive to use the tanks in reverse compared to real ones, hiding the heavy armour behind expendable chaff i.e. comrades, just feels imposing.
@@havelock1982 wtf are you on about? calm down.
Anyone got an idea for a 1000 points list?
I don't know how experienced a player you are, but I would get the units you like the look off astheticslly, and those that you enjoy the lore and fighting style off. It is a personal choice and even 1000pt is a big time and cost investment. Have fun putting it together though!
It’s not that they are absolutely strong or broken, these units are the strong but somewhat balanced.
Also: legionaries have wound reroll only in melee attacks I think
They don’t
4th armour dog fight night lords marines
One of the best combos in PBZ is Chaos Termy 10man blob with a Termy Sorcerer marked as tzeentch, with combi-bolters and 2 autocannons. You deepstrike them in with a 3” window for rapid fire, get death hex on an enemy for ap-1, then fire 36 combi-bolter shots at them with 5+ lethals and full hit rerolls. And thats before withfire and the autocannons and melee.
Did that with flamers in a Veterans detachment. No 5+ crits but maximum attacks on flamers and Ignore cover for the bolters. It DID hurt.
A lot of points for what amounts to maybe 10 lethals at 1dmg. Just take a unit of 5 with sorcerer and MOS for adv+charge, you want them in combat
Unbeaten
PLEASE UPDATE THE BIKERS. I want to play them so badly but not with those old sculpts.
Marda 3 anti tank
I'm not saying they mechanically shouldn't, but it's a bit weird, too me, that Chaos Space Marines, as in the default Troops choice, is comparable to the thousands of years in the making, miracle Primaris Marines. Other than maybe a couple of Stratagems, are they really too different, now? And they are basically the same as Firstborn Astartes. Lunatics like Fabius Bile have certainly done sone high science nightmares, but it's good to know Chaos needed nothing, really, to stay caught up.
I am going to complain, a little, though, about Chaos Bikers. These are just one more reason I hate the Primaris Outriders, or whatever they are called. I used to like Space Marines Bikes; they could almost justify having to do that much white paint, and kit-bashing, to make White Scars as they should be, but now they are just not good, even with a whole detachment dedicated to it, and a Chapter that wants it. Why are Marines on wolves,, or "Firstborn" CSM, BOTH better than "enhanced" Primaris, on new bikes made specifically for them? There's a couple of custom bike characters I'd love to try, and they'd probably both still be White Scars theme, bur it's too bad they are just one more shortcoming of the Loyalist Astartes codex, compared to playing Divergent, or Chaos.
If I were going to run Chaos I imagine it would be Iron Warriors, and I'm not sure hoe many of these would feature in that, but still nice to see what works for them!
Don't hear much about Raptors these days...
I take a 5 man squad for secondaries. Seems to work well for me so far.
OH YEA
RHINOS RHINOS?? CSM HIDE IN METAL BAWXES??
Undivided
Bikers are some of the worst models in the whole GW catalogue 6:44
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Abaddon, only him, chaos lord is rabbish
No Bloodseeker, bad list
Second
Says a lot about how shit the Chaos codex is when even Auspex couldn't make the list a _TOP TEN..._
GW, 10th is fucking dire. Why are you setting yourselves on fire to stay warm? Are you just trying to make 11th look much better by comparison?
This codex is fantastic. What are you talking about?
Agreed. The 10th codex is woeful. Big part of the reason i stopped playing
@@captaincorundum9788 some people are weirdly off about it.
Dunno whether to do my autocannon predator with lascannon or heavy bolters.
Lascannons 100%
Lascannons every day of the week
You’ll usually be dark pacting for sustained which you already have on your heavy bolters so makes sense to take the lascannons
Only exception might be into a horde army and in raiders where you can get the extra AP