To be honest, I'm not too surprised by the phlog being on top. The phlog's biggest weakness is that the pyro cant defend himself. He has no airblast, or he essentially has to facetank everything, or stealth as hard as spy. Taking away the concern of HP makes the phlog easily the best choice. This is also why phlog pyros usually are always with a medic, because they really struggle when alone.
Quick fix was also unsurprising. Its downside was the overheal cap, and with how important knockback becomes with high-health pyros, the quick fix uber is more important than invuln.
In Pub phlog is genuelly one of the strongest weapons and can make pyro easily the best for uber pushes Only counter would be knockback, surprised there weren't many Demoman with loose cannon, it is great for pushing back enemies, coupled with a barrage of bullets coming from sentries they could make a wall However the quickfix specifically negates knockback, so as soon as a medic uses the charge it's over
Phlog pyro also has a major advantage over heavy: he is faster. Pyro's normal limitation of not being able to approach without getting wrecked by anyone with hitscan is fixed because he has thousands of hp. Since everyone has thousands of hp, charging the phlog is super easy.
@@shoeofobama6091 In normal TF2, he has the highest damage output. His long reload means he might not be able to get anything done, even after using and hitting all 12 explosives. No reload weapons are where it is at.
@@joeyjonquantaviusjr9927 you know some trickstabs dont need any ping or interp abuse to pull off so i think it just depends what spy main you are talking to
Actually what I've found more common than straight facestabs is "scalp-stabs" or "shoulder-stabs" where the spy is definitely not behind you, with even the backstab animation visible when you die, but maybe it wouldn't be with the default FOV of 70. It's possible the janky hit detection is partially due to valve testing the game at 70 FOV.
Also something that should be noted is the oft overlooked stats of flamethrowers that decreases healing recurved while on fire, so in a realistic situation of two combos running into each other, the phlog has the additional advantage of hamstringing enemy regeneration during the fight
One thing not considered that affected this meta was that fire damage applies a passive penalty to all healing beams, limiting the ammount of incoming health. Slowing input of overheal in general allows for a quicker kill time for the side with a pyro in a situation with two identical med combos fighting alongside non-identical teammate comps.
@@-RandomStranger- pretty sure healing from medi-guns is decreased after having taken damage recently, so afterburn sorta keeps that decrease active for much longer
I feel like the spy's impact is being underrated here. Sure, they may not always get kills, but every time they did made a huge difference since they were instantly deleting thousands of HP that would have taken far longer to do for anyone else, during which time they'd be dealing damage back themselves.
Also all the clips he showed he was literally trying to facestab people, in a match with competent players, wound up heavy will always get trickstabbed, and phlog taunt will always get trickstabbed. Also kunai steals health. If there is no heal limit from backstab, 1 backstab and spy becomes literally unkillable again.
Yes, this is complete hell. But on the upside sniper is completely neutered. So it's not all bad. Now I just want this comboed with the last experiment.
Being one of the participants, that end clip of everyone dousing the middle point in fire, scrambling around to make something work was the perfect embodiment of this experiment. But it was honestly one of the most fun things I've done in TF2. Maybe it's because I'm braindead, that is a possibility.
I wonder, if the sniper's rifle charge meter was removed as well, would everyone charge the rifle for two minutes to be able to oneshot bodyshot a heavy or would everyone use and charge huntsman for a few seconds before shooting?
Sydney sleeper would be the meta as charge would increase both the damage and the jarates duration and it also charges 25% faster, and you also wouldn't have to wait much even with other rifles Idk how long is the charge but let's assume 5 seconds, in 5 seconds you increase your damage from 50 to 150, so in theory you would need to sit in place for only 12.5 seconds to oneshot any class without a medic and 20 seconds to oneshot a full overheal heavy, if they go vac and steel fist you would need to wait 375 seconds, so you can oneshot anything in about 6 minutes but average vacc uber lasts about 3-4 seconds so this is very extreme Note: I also don't remember the exact resistance vac gives so feel free to correct me
now everyone can use the weakest, most useless feature of spy, and on top of that, its now even more useless because everyone knows everyone has it! ricetong
I can imagine the Kunai being absolutely overpowered in this mode. The more stabs he gets, the more health he gets, and everyone has more health to give to him
i was expecting airblast to be total meta just for the sheer area denial it had, anyone with basic knowledge or airblast mechanics can could easily defend the last point on attack defend and to an extent on payload
@@gab936 environmental kills, like cliffs in Higher Tower or Upward, those are instant-killers, he wasn't talking about fall damage. Though I can't blame you for misunderstanding, I read this comment and couldn't understand at first
i would've thought being able to safely drain hp from a range via demoman or kritzing a demo would still be good strategy due to high damage output and knockback. phlog is a no brainer as insane hp covers 90% of the weaknesses of phlog
I wonder how this experiment would work, if it were tweaked a bit (to make it more like a deliberate decision Valve might've made). Like, what if the overheal was uncapped, but starting at 150% health, slowed down linearly, so while you could heal indefinitely, it would eventually be weaker than an enemy's damage? Obviously, you'd have to plateau the slope at some point, or you'd just effectively create a new health cap. The slope doesn't need to be steep, just enough so that 12 Quick Fix medics all healing each other don't effectively tank everything in the game.
2:15 something important to note about game metas is that metas are defined by 2 things. 1. Is is easy to do? 2. Is it a guaranteed win against other strategies?
Here is an experiment idea: Only crit and mini-crit attacks can deal damage I think it would be interesting to see how this change will affect the role of each class
-Crit-a-cola and Fan-o-war Scout -Kritzkreig or Uber or Vaccinator Medic -Trolldier with the buff banner -Spy with Ambassador -Sniper with Jarate and either stock or the Sydney sleeper -Pyro, using either the Phlog or the Backburner along with the Scorch shot or Flare gun (provided there is afterburn that deals no damage so he can combo) -Heavy with the Buffalo Steak Sandwich and KGB -Engineer's buildings are immune to crit damage and the sentry will still cause knockback -Demoknight might be useful?
I feel like demo could have a niche role in this gamemode, if your aim is good enough that is. You can use pipes and stickies in a defensive situation to knock up Pyros and Medics in the air and waste their time. This combines nicely with a sentry - demo lifts the enemy up and the sentry blasts them away. There is also the sticky trap, which despite doing relatively insignificant damage at uncapped overheal is still a nice source of burst, especially if the stickies are critzed. Alternatively you could run demoknight with the Chargin Targe for that 50% resistance to fire damage and the Skullcutter with a pocket vaccinator medic on your ass 24/7. Admittedly a very niche pick overall, but I am surprised no one thought of trying it.
Sadly, the quickfix neutralizes knockback, so pushing folks around with stickies is out of question. However, I think that fully critted stickbomb traps could have a chance of killing someone.
if you can recall how overwatch was on release, it would be like that. everyone on the enemy team dives onto the medic, and they die, lest, the medic will simply live and that wins by default
but what if overhealing slowly tappered off after 150%. like, healing got slower in a log curve that effectively flattened at 600% hp (at this point heals are just 1 hp per second)
I really love these types of experiments. It does make me wonder about other things like: 1) What if Engineer could build an unlimited number of buildings? 2) What if every weapon in their respective slot was combined (Medic has a melee weapon with -32.5% swing speed, -10 max health, but allowed you to see enemy HP, build uber on hit and retain uber when dead)? 3) Everybody had infinite double jumps? 4) All weapons had reversed damage fall off, like the Crusader's Crossbow?
Hey shounic, maybe you could try an experiment that replaces the dead ringer activation noise to when you kill the spy instead of when he decides to decloak after the activation
You dont have to "brute force" a "facestab," you can move correctly to get a backstab the same way you can dodge as scout or juke as medic or use any melee for that matter.
@@VioletSteel13 Everyone has their own definition of what a facestab is. Most spies just call stabs trickstabs, unless it looked like it shouldn't have been a stab, at which point it's a facestab. But in technical terms, those facestabs don't exist since hitreg is consistent even if it doesn't always look like it to the naked eye.
@@VioletSteel13 What is it is legit on the spy's end? Facestab implies it shouldnt have counted, but that definition is really meaningless since every stab which counted should have counted if you define backstab the same as hitreg does.
@@VioletSteel13 What does it mean to look? Looking requires the dimension of time, which due to how the game is networked only really has a meaning when you observe it from the perspective of a defined observer. If you go to a different observer, their perception of time is different. That's how lag works. Time becomes relative and players see different things. Valve made the intentional design choice to calculate hitreg based on the attacker's view, which is why "facestabs" are fully intentional game design. It would be much more unfair if the attacker had to predict to what to them is in the future.
@@VioletSteel13 You can't have both. You can either have hitreg based on the attacker's view or the opponent's view. Valve intentionally chose to go with the attacker's view, which makes facestabs intentional game design.
‘I held my viewers at gun point and politely asked them to participate in the experiment’ me: I agree, holding a person at gunpoint and then proceeding to politely say ‘participate in the experiment’ while still being held at gun point is crazy
I love these videos where you change one thing about the game design or code, just to see what happens and subsequently discover why it was made the way it was.
I tried (you can see me in the video using the kritzkrieg). It doesn't work because phlog crits charge MUCH faster than kritzkrieg, and also heavy's low mobility makes it difficult to chase down pyros and do optimal damage.
i wonder if a spy disguised as a medic on his own team, using the kunai would be very good, since people might not expect it to be a spy since medics are trying to do melee a lot and the enemy would be able to burn a medic normally. also, if the kunai gives you 3000 overheal for killing an overhealed enemy, it could be pretty good
I'd like to think I have decent aim. Much better at flicking than tracking though. But I just can't fathom how the heavy loses that mge match, with the health buffed for both. Stock minigun does about as much as kritz phlog, how is this even a contest. Maybe you should have tried some pro heavy players for this experiment. Interesting nevertheless.
Despite the the Heavy being good at close range, it's becomes a pain to hit an enemy at point-blank range. I've experienced this personally with Scouts, once they get into melee range a good Scout can make it almost impossible to see them, let alone hit them. While Pyro's aren't as fast as Scouts are, they're still easily fast enough to make a Heavy miss most of their shots, maybe half of the Heavy's shots at least. When the Pyro keeps their full DPS while the Heavy loses most of it, the Pyro can easily come out on top. Still, I agree that it would be interesting to see how a professional Heavy would do against a professional Pyro. I assume that the Heavy's improved aim would scale better than a Pyro's improved movement, but I just don't see what a Heavy can do against a Pyro that starts hugging them. EDIT: Thinking about it, it would also be interesting to do a test between 6 2000 HP Heavy's and 6 2000 HP Pyro's. That kind of experiment would give a more concrete conclusion on which one wins.
They're both buffed to the same health, so the Heavy no longer has an advantage, while still being very, very slow and having a larger hitbox. The Pyro has the same 2k health, but a smaller hitbox and a much better movement speed, allowing him to dodge better.
Ngl, that Heavy sucks at tracking. I could understand if the other player was a Scout, but there's a reason Heavy counters Pyro: If a Heavy KNOWS how to track, Pyro is toast. So really, Heavy should be meta (As he is with Medic normally), it's just shounic couldn't find good Heavy players.
@@tragedyplustime8271 the reason Heavy counters Pyro is because he has twice as much health and much more DPS than the Pyro When both have 2000 HP, the health advantage is gone, and with the Phlog, so is the DPS advantage. But the Heavy also is much slower and has a bigger hitbox, putting him at a further disadvantage because the Pyro can easily get max flamethrower ramp-up.
@@kubaGR8 The Phlog doesn't have a dps close to the Natacha, let alone Stock or Brass Beast. Hitbox doesn't matter if the Heavy ACTUALLY knows how to track. His speed doesn't matter because the minigun's aiming speed is the same as any other weapon.
I would call this the over oven Stats +60% more over heal on team mates +20% hp on health packs etc +10 more dmg on melees etc - 20 melee swing speed Medics healing team mates has 20% more dmg to every thing (except for plogs) It's quite fair tho i mean P.S: I edited this 4 times
60% more overheal is the main gimmick +20% health pack hp? why? melee stats are just... why? is the 20% more damage the ubercharge? if not, what would it be?
I agree with the other commenter Strip everything but the overheal. Uber Effect: damage resistance for targets with overheal, rapid overheal for you, but if their overheal drains then they lose it.
i wrote the health pack hp as a refrence to another spin off of tf2, Typical Colours 2 on roblox its ok i mean just way more tryhards then tf2 (the weapon is the stock weapon for doctor its just called saw and its a 50% health pack on that game)
"The problem with spy is that you have to stand behind them, which is hard when people are looking at you" The solution there, it seems to me, is to play the fucking class as its supposed to be played.
I think the point is that while spy can work, it's not going to be the main combat class, and still serves the same role it always did, with the added difficulty of there being pyros everywhere.
@@h4724-q6j in addition because people have so much health fights last longer and and up as blobs when normally people end up dying and moving around and running to the fights more. This means the chance of finding a lone player or group that doesn't have a pyro flame-checking player drops significantly meaning you have way less potential lone or unprotected targets even if you're looking for them.
@@endlesstrash4718 Blobs of players also offer an opportunity, since with a large number of players running around the same space, a Spy can slip in easily and get a few stabs in, especially if that blob is distracted by a fight. Pyro flames would make that hard, but with a little time overhealing 1000 HP would be more than enough to get the job done.
So the ultimate takeaway from this is, if any class could use any weapon then Scout + Phlog is so strong it warps the meta around it, and if overheal isn't capped then Phlog becomes the core of the meta. I'll let everyone else come to their own conclusions, but this tells me that the Pyro's limitations are what holds the Phlog back.
@@KopperNeoman That refers to class abilities, though. My point is that the Phlog is should probably be nerfed to mini-crits, if it's so precariously balanced.
"i held my viewers at gunpoint and politely asked them to partake in the experiment" is a perfect summary of the vibe that shounic gives off, and why i find his passive aggressive tone fucking hilarious
Great vid overall but a little confused on the Spy perspective of things. Yeah, you won't get backstabs if you just run up to people and start slashing. That's true in vanilla TF2, just that here, you won't get mauled down instantly. Spy's whole thing is flanking and trickstabs, I don't get why you excluded the latter.
Its hard to do when the fights are so chaotic because almost nobody dies on a second-to-second basis; like he said, you can really only shuffle into a big fight and hope to land a facestab in the confusion, otherwise you'll get burned out or just fail to score points. And with Pyro being the meta, Spy is all the less effective.
With all the grief people give heavy players about how easy he is, it's kind of hilarious that the biggest problem was that no one was any good at tracking with heavy :)
No overheal and any class can use any weapon would be chaos, like imagine a scout using a Gunslinger, cozy camper the concheror (for passive healing) or the blackbox for 45+ health in total, and using the gun of their choice, and also no overheal limit would be fucking chaos
Given the players lack of skill hitting bullets as Heavy, I'm surprised the Natascha wasn't busted out to counteract the difficulty tracking. Plus, it has the bonus of denying players being able to juke your aim through strafing, because A/D spam to counteract the slow doesn't exactly let you strafe, at least not without aiming away from the Heavy first. Which means they're spending time not shooting at you while you're shooting them
Worth noting that there is a glitch involving the quick fix ubercharge. Normally you can’t stack healing with multiple medics, but Megaheal is its own status, and as such, the heal rate of a quick fix Uber will be multiplied if there are other medical healing the person you are healing. This is normally not really that important in actual games but this experiment would have really highlighted that if I came with several friends to cooperate Ubers.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
(the experiment is over, you can't play it anymore. there is no server)
Nice
Nice
Hey Shounic, I have an idea. How would I go about talking to you about this idea?
no i won't play your shitty server
Nice
Also, Quick-fix has immunity to knockback, so Pyros cannot airblast you at all.
hi martin
I once confused a very airblast happy pyro with this little feature.
isn't that only apply when ubered?
@@CyanDumBell_MC Correct
Wait it does? That makes it the best medigun for a lot of melee centric playstyles
"The Spy wound up being a support class, trying to take people down with sneaky backstabs."
So, a Spy?
Unless it would be Swipez.
@@hunlepto2239 or any other spy main that actually knows how players move
@@hunlepto2239 Swipez the power class
Hmm yes. The spy here is made out of spy.
Tf2 player remarking that spy is actually a class that is not agresive
"he ended up being a support class that came in for surprising backstabs"
HMMM ALMOST AS IF THAT WAS HIS INTENDED ROLE
To be honest, I'm not too surprised by the phlog being on top. The phlog's biggest weakness is that the pyro cant defend himself. He has no airblast, or he essentially has to facetank everything, or stealth as hard as spy. Taking away the concern of HP makes the phlog easily the best choice. This is also why phlog pyros usually are always with a medic, because they really struggle when alone.
Quick fix was also unsurprising. Its downside was the overheal cap, and with how important knockback becomes with high-health pyros, the quick fix uber is more important than invuln.
In Pub phlog is genuelly one of the strongest weapons and can make pyro easily the best for uber pushes
Only counter would be knockback, surprised there weren't many Demoman with loose cannon, it is great for pushing back enemies, coupled with a barrage of bullets coming from sentries they could make a wall
However the quickfix specifically negates knockback, so as soon as a medic uses the charge it's over
I didn't know u play Tf2 jpmrocks
i honestly thought soldier or demo would be on top, both having high mobility at the cost of HP and insane blast damage.
@@bruschetta7711 it's because the quick fix übers deny knockback
"he ended up being a support role that would come in for surprise backstabs"
ah yes the spy is made of spy
Spy tactics changed drastically from sneaky backstabs to sneaky backstabs
Sneaky-er backstab
They have to be sneakier due to the decreased amount of enemy players busy being dead
Phlog pyro also has a major advantage over heavy: he is faster. Pyro's normal limitation of not being able to approach without getting wrecked by anyone with hitscan is fixed because he has thousands of hp. Since everyone has thousands of hp, charging the phlog is super easy.
Imagiene what if the Heavy use Natascha and he will be able to slow down a Pyro.
@@Markiz93 Then another pyro shows up.
Pyro>Heavy
also, demo probably should have taken precedence, demo has the higher EFFECTIVE dps
@@shoeofobama6091 In normal TF2, he has the highest damage output. His long reload means he might not be able to get anything done, even after using and hitting all 12 explosives. No reload weapons are where it is at.
"If people look at you, you can't backstab them"
Spy mains: "Hon hon that's where you're wrong sir"
TF2's hitboxes: FUCK IT! I am looking back now.
you just bad lol, facestab almost never happen , except of bad ping or interp
@@jamesbourbon5129 well done, you’ve described every interaction I had with a
Spy “main”. Bad ping and cl interp
@@joeyjonquantaviusjr9927 you know some trickstabs dont need any ping or interp abuse to pull off so i think it just depends what spy main you are talking to
Actually what I've found more common than straight facestabs is "scalp-stabs" or "shoulder-stabs" where the spy is definitely not behind you, with even the backstab animation visible when you die, but maybe it wouldn't be with the default FOV of 70. It's possible the janky hit detection is partially due to valve testing the game at 70 FOV.
Also something that should be noted is the oft overlooked stats of flamethrowers that decreases healing recurved while on fire, so in a realistic situation of two combos running into each other, the phlog has the additional advantage of hamstringing enemy regeneration during the fight
It also bonks vacc ubers.
@@VagueCastle649 it's still resisting damage since the penalty doesn't completely negate Vacc res
@@gab936 but there's no limit, even the quick fix has an overheal penalty.
@@mr.pickle6487 the problem is that vac builds overheal EXTREMELY slow
@@luigifan4585 while vacc normally ignores phlog like "why is there an angry child" you do not have permanent vacc uber
One thing not considered that affected this meta was that fire damage applies a passive penalty to all healing beams, limiting the ammount of incoming health. Slowing input of overheal in general allows for a quicker kill time for the side with a pyro in a situation with two identical med combos fighting alongside non-identical teammate comps.
Is there actually a penalty? Or is it just because afterburn is the opposite of healing
@@-RandomStranger- pretty sure healing from medi-guns is decreased after having taken damage recently, so afterburn sorta keeps that decrease active for much longer
@@pointyyou yeah, that what I meant
@pointyyou nah, if you're afterburned, then its a flat 50% healing decrease
@@-RandomStranger- afterburn specifically decreases healing recieved. its a pretty obscure mechanic, as it often doesnt have much of an impact
I feel like the spy's impact is being underrated here. Sure, they may not always get kills, but every time they did made a huge difference since they were instantly deleting thousands of HP that would have taken far longer to do for anyone else, during which time they'd be dealing damage back themselves.
Also all the clips he showed he was literally trying to facestab people, in a match with competent players, wound up heavy will always get trickstabbed, and phlog taunt will always get trickstabbed. Also kunai steals health. If there is no heal limit from backstab, 1 backstab and spy becomes literally unkillable again.
Kunai cloak and dagger. Sit in a corner wait for an overhealed enemy to pass and BAM
Spy really does not seem good in a gamemode where everyone is playing Pyro.
@@rainchopper898 x10 spy
@@rainchopper898 the kunai didnt break the overheal cap
only mediguns did
Yes, this is complete hell. But on the upside sniper is completely neutered. So it's not all bad.
Now I just want this comboed with the last experiment.
phlog+quick fix+ubersaw/knife scout
100th like
Worth it for that Kiwi to get relegated to nothingness.
And Medic has more game
Quake 1 Ranger vs Davoth
Being one of the participants, that end clip of everyone dousing the middle point in fire, scrambling around to make something work was the perfect embodiment of this experiment. But it was honestly one of the most fun things I've done in TF2. Maybe it's because I'm braindead, that is a possibility.
This experiment have shown that changing just one single variable can completely disrupt the delicate balance between TF2 classes.
@@Simboiss Cue warowl "negev became the meta"
I wonder, if the sniper's rifle charge meter was removed as well, would everyone charge the rifle for two minutes to be able to oneshot bodyshot a heavy or would everyone use and charge huntsman for a few seconds before shooting?
Sit for 2 minutes
Anti materiel rifle
I'll get my Pro Killstreak Classic out! It's hunting season!
@Aidan Eaglesfield that's true, but the huntsman charges significantly faster than any other sniper primary so it would still probably be the best
2 min build up and then miss...
Sydney sleeper would be the meta as charge would increase both the damage and the jarates duration and it also charges 25% faster, and you also wouldn't have to wait much even with other rifles
Idk how long is the charge but let's assume 5 seconds, in 5 seconds you increase your damage from 50 to 150, so in theory you would need to sit in place for only 12.5 seconds to oneshot any class without a medic and 20 seconds to oneshot a full overheal heavy, if they go vac and steel fist you would need to wait 375 seconds, so you can oneshot anything in about 6 minutes but average vacc uber lasts about 3-4 seconds so this is very extreme
Note: I also don't remember the exact resistance vac gives so feel free to correct me
"backstabs only work if you stab their back"
If only it were that simple...
ikr, I was waiting for the gag clip the whole time he circled the pyro
Most trickstabs boil down to moving weirdly to get people to walk in front of you.
@@Soapromancer I was referring to facestabs and stabbing the air 1 meter in front of your target.
It just works.
Idea: Everyone can use the Spy's disguise kit
Well bruh just use pyro
i'm picturing fan'o'war scouts disguising as enemy scouts and instantly melee and meatshotting every class
@shounic we need this.
now everyone can use the weakest, most useless feature of spy, and on top of that, its now even more useless because everyone knows everyone has it! ricetong
-disguising as scout
-run straight into heavy
-dies
-"DiSGuisEs aRe UsELeSs"
This experiment just turns any class into a Saxton Hale Boss
Oh hey, it's StickMaster500
Stick master real?
the experiment was basically VSH for people dont know about VSH
Are you real
@@dmxtrs minus arena mode
"I held my viewers at gunpoint and politely asked them to participate in the experiment."
- shounic, 2022
providing context is prohibited lol
Interesting how, in a meta FULL of pyros, the Spy still manages to carve a niche for himself.
You should have mentioned that afterburn also reduces direct Medic healing by 20%, making it easier to fight the overheal buildup.
Seeing a Brass Beast with 2k HP would be SCARY
''You can't hurt me Jack''
Then Phlog renders it completely useless
MvM Heavy Giants: *Am I a joke to you?*
@@GewelReal If a coordinated spy team of 2 is there phlog's taunt would result in a immediate neutralization.
0:37 Spy: *8k health*
Pyro: Letme fix that *airblasts off cliff*
4:16 God i just love this clip. I don't know why, but I love it.
I can imagine the Kunai being absolutely overpowered in this mode. The more stabs he gets, the more health he gets, and everyone has more health to give to him
Actually Kunai Spy isn't that powerful in this mode.
Isn't Kunai only be giving at best 205 HP on Spies?
... then tf2 becomes hell itself
Why are you implying that this experiment made TF2 hell?
It always was.
I'd love to see an all melee battle with just pans where everyone has 1k+ health lol.
and no regen
That spy gameplay at 3:00 is physically painful to watch lmao
That's my average gameplay
i was expecting airblast to be total meta just for the sheer area denial it had, anyone with basic knowledge or airblast mechanics can could easily defend the last point on attack defend and to an extent on payload
Problem is quick fix negates airblast
@@comrademuds1951 oh yeah, i totally forgot about that
That, and the flamethrower's flame-throwing range is longer than the airblast's air-blasting range.
@@kubaGR8 this isn't true.
@@Chorismos The video showed otherwise. Flamethrower range is longer by a few hammer units.
Impressive. I thought most kills would be done with airblast into fall.
@@gab936 environmental kills
@@gab936 environmental kills, like cliffs in Higher Tower or Upward, those are instant-killers, he wasn't talking about fall damage.
Though I can't blame you for misunderstanding, I read this comment and couldn't understand at first
most good maps don't have cliffs sadly
0:17 *gives pyro new eyes*
i would've thought being able to safely drain hp from a range via demoman or kritzing a demo would still be good strategy due to high damage output and knockback.
phlog is a no brainer as insane hp covers 90% of the weaknesses of phlog
Crit Scottish resistance. Mvm style.
I wonder how this experiment would work, if it were tweaked a bit (to make it more like a deliberate decision Valve might've made).
Like, what if the overheal was uncapped, but starting at 150% health, slowed down linearly, so while you could heal indefinitely, it would eventually be weaker than an enemy's damage? Obviously, you'd have to plateau the slope at some point, or you'd just effectively create a new health cap.
The slope doesn't need to be steep, just enough so that 12 Quick Fix medics all healing each other don't effectively tank everything in the game.
Being On Fire already penalizes healing, which is another factor in the Phlog's prominence, its does obscene damage and stunts healing effectively
hey ma I'm on camera! 5:13
this was as fun as it was unfun. thanks for hosting ridiculous alternative universe tf2 scenarios though!
2:15 something important to note about game metas is that metas are defined by 2 things.
1. Is is easy to do?
2. Is it a guaranteed win against other strategies?
5:15
The game devolved into a regular casual match
nowhere near enough snipers
Lies, the 4000h Sniper and the 6 gibus spies aren't present
@@appliedatoms7066 ok now that you said that it seems that this makes the game more balanced
@@blacklight683 balanced? No. More fun without instant death from across the map because you moved toward the objective? Yes.
@@appliedatoms7066 indeed, I hate sniper and this makes dealing with him much eazier
Here is an experiment idea:
Only crit and mini-crit attacks can deal damage
I think it would be interesting to see how this change will affect the role of each class
bye demoknight
hi sniperknight
Random crits on or off?
Piss rifle jarate snipers are now the ultimate support
@@bruschetta7711 off
-Crit-a-cola and Fan-o-war Scout
-Kritzkreig or Uber or Vaccinator Medic
-Trolldier with the buff banner
-Spy with Ambassador
-Sniper with Jarate and either stock or the Sydney sleeper
-Pyro, using either the Phlog or the Backburner along with the Scorch shot or Flare gun (provided there is afterburn that deals no damage so he can combo)
-Heavy with the Buffalo Steak Sandwich and KGB
-Engineer's buildings are immune to crit damage and the sentry will still cause knockback
-Demoknight might be useful?
I feel like demo could have a niche role in this gamemode, if your aim is good enough that is. You can use pipes and stickies in a defensive situation to knock up Pyros and Medics in the air and waste their time. This combines nicely with a sentry - demo lifts the enemy up and the sentry blasts them away. There is also the sticky trap, which despite doing relatively insignificant damage at uncapped overheal is still a nice source of burst, especially if the stickies are critzed.
Alternatively you could run demoknight with the Chargin Targe for that 50% resistance to fire damage and the Skullcutter with a pocket vaccinator medic on your ass 24/7.
Admittedly a very niche pick overall, but I am surprised no one thought of trying it.
Sadly, the quickfix neutralizes knockback, so pushing folks around with stickies is out of question.
However, I think that fully critted stickbomb traps could have a chance of killing someone.
„Backstabs only work if you stab their back.“
Yes, the floor is made out of floor.
Don't forget the part where phlog pyros could get thousands of health then spawncamp enemies who only spawned with default health 🔥
1:25 What playing spy looks like
I'm curious how this would go if everything was the same BUT Medics couldn't receive overheal (and maybe if overheal decayed faster)
if you can recall how overwatch was on release, it would be like that. everyone on the enemy team dives onto the medic, and they die, lest, the medic will simply live and that wins by default
What's funny to me is that in every single one of these types of videos, the phlog always finds a way to be involved in the meta somehow.
“this pyro has full health.”
woah dude
Interesting to see the plog so consistently come up in these extreme experiments
I love the recurring theme of if you change anything at all the phlog becomes broken
damn, this experiment would’ve been really fun to play as spy
0:26 loved your honesty there ❤
Bluds forgor about vaccinator's "fuck you damage type" uber, although it would be really difficult to build up overheal with it
Quick-Fix just got the biggest buff known to man with this one.
but what if overhealing slowly tappered off after 150%. like, healing got slower in a log curve that effectively flattened at 600% hp (at this point heals are just 1 hp per second)
I really love these types of experiments. It does make me wonder about other things like:
1) What if Engineer could build an unlimited number of buildings?
2) What if every weapon in their respective slot was combined (Medic has a melee weapon with -32.5% swing speed, -10 max health, but allowed you to see enemy HP, build uber on hit and retain uber when dead)?
3) Everybody had infinite double jumps?
4) All weapons had reversed damage fall off, like the Crusader's Crossbow?
0:26 medigun point
of course its the pyro, its always the pyro, EVERYTHINGS THE PYRO
I’m 1:19 in and I’m gonna guess the best class to overheal will be engineer. Considering he can pick up his sentry, protecting it.
Edit: *oh.*
4:23 I love how the scout shrugs as if saying that the crit revolver shots don't do anything to him.
Scout: This is fine.
Hey shounic, maybe you could try an experiment that replaces the dead ringer activation noise to when you kill the spy instead of when he decides to decloak after the activation
“For the most part, spy was pretty useless.”
Yup. Most spy players
You dont have to "brute force" a "facestab," you can move correctly to get a backstab the same way you can dodge as scout or juke as medic or use any melee for that matter.
@@VioletSteel13 Everyone has their own definition of what a facestab is. Most spies just call stabs trickstabs, unless it looked like it shouldn't have been a stab, at which point it's a facestab. But in technical terms, those facestabs don't exist since hitreg is consistent even if it doesn't always look like it to the naked eye.
@@VioletSteel13 What is it is legit on the spy's end? Facestab implies it shouldnt have counted, but that definition is really meaningless since every stab which counted should have counted if you define backstab the same as hitreg does.
@@VioletSteel13 but it has nothing to do with hitboxes. it's lag compensation working as intended
@@VioletSteel13
What does it mean to look? Looking requires the dimension of time, which due to how the game is networked only really has a meaning when you observe it from the perspective of a defined observer. If you go to a different observer, their perception of time is different. That's how lag works. Time becomes relative and players see different things.
Valve made the intentional design choice to calculate hitreg based on the attacker's view, which is why "facestabs" are fully intentional game design. It would be much more unfair if the attacker had to predict to what to them is in the future.
@@VioletSteel13 You can't have both. You can either have hitreg based on the attacker's view or the opponent's view. Valve intentionally chose to go with the attacker's view, which makes facestabs intentional game design.
‘I held my viewers at gun point and politely asked them to participate in the experiment’ me: I agree, holding a person at gunpoint and then proceeding to politely say ‘participate in the experiment’ while still being held at gun point is crazy
"this pyro is at full health. if i heal hi-"
"nuh uh *equips back scratcher* "
"well shi- *video ends* "
I love these videos where you change one thing about the game design or code, just to see what happens and subsequently discover why it was made the way it was.
It's worth mentioning that pyro's flames also reduce healing, effectively cutting down the ammount of HP the classes have.
I like these experimental 'what if we change or removing a mechanic' ideas.
Comp players boutta go nuts
As a quick-fix medic main, this would be a dream come true
Kritzkrieg Brass Beast probably would have been a really strong niche strat since it can far outrange and outdamage phlog, if only for 8 seconds
I tried (you can see me in the video using the kritzkrieg). It doesn't work because phlog crits charge MUCH faster than kritzkrieg, and also heavy's low mobility makes it difficult to chase down pyros and do optimal damage.
Huh. And here I was thinking the Medic would be the most popular class
i wonder if a spy disguised as a medic on his own team, using the kunai would be very good, since people might not expect it to be a spy since medics are trying to do melee a lot and the enemy would be able to burn a medic normally. also, if the kunai gives you 3000 overheal for killing an overhealed enemy, it could be pretty good
learning that all these experiments return to the plog is like learning that animals keep evolving into crabs
1:51 It's not stock minigun. It's Sasha
Nah i call it big gun
damage dealt strange part heaven.
I'd like to think I have decent aim. Much better at flicking than tracking though. But I just can't fathom how the heavy loses that mge match, with the health buffed for both. Stock minigun does about as much as kritz phlog, how is this even a contest. Maybe you should have tried some pro heavy players for this experiment. Interesting nevertheless.
Despite the the Heavy being good at close range, it's becomes a pain to hit an enemy at point-blank range. I've experienced this personally with Scouts, once they get into melee range a good Scout can make it almost impossible to see them, let alone hit them. While Pyro's aren't as fast as Scouts are, they're still easily fast enough to make a Heavy miss most of their shots, maybe half of the Heavy's shots at least. When the Pyro keeps their full DPS while the Heavy loses most of it, the Pyro can easily come out on top.
Still, I agree that it would be interesting to see how a professional Heavy would do against a professional Pyro. I assume that the Heavy's improved aim would scale better than a Pyro's improved movement, but I just don't see what a Heavy can do against a Pyro that starts hugging them.
EDIT: Thinking about it, it would also be interesting to do a test between 6 2000 HP Heavy's and 6 2000 HP Pyro's. That kind of experiment would give a more concrete conclusion on which one wins.
They're both buffed to the same health, so the Heavy no longer has an advantage, while still being very, very slow and having a larger hitbox.
The Pyro has the same 2k health, but a smaller hitbox and a much better movement speed, allowing him to dodge better.
Ngl, that Heavy sucks at tracking. I could understand if the other player was a Scout, but there's a reason Heavy counters Pyro: If a Heavy KNOWS how to track, Pyro is toast.
So really, Heavy should be meta (As he is with Medic normally), it's just shounic couldn't find good Heavy players.
@@tragedyplustime8271 the reason Heavy counters Pyro is because he has twice as much health and much more DPS than the Pyro
When both have 2000 HP, the health advantage is gone, and with the Phlog, so is the DPS advantage. But the Heavy also is much slower and has a bigger hitbox, putting him at a further disadvantage because the Pyro can easily get max flamethrower ramp-up.
@@kubaGR8 The Phlog doesn't have a dps close to the Natacha, let alone Stock or Brass Beast.
Hitbox doesn't matter if the Heavy ACTUALLY knows how to track. His speed doesn't matter because the minigun's aiming speed is the same as any other weapon.
these videos are incredibly interesting to see how the meta instantly shifts when game mechanics change.
I would call this the over oven
Stats
+60% more over heal on team mates
+20% hp on health packs etc
+10 more dmg on melees etc
- 20 melee swing speed
Medics healing team mates has 20% more dmg to every thing (except for plogs)
It's quite fair tho i mean
P.S: I edited this 4 times
60% more overheal is the main gimmick
+20% health pack hp? why?
melee stats are just... why?
is the 20% more damage the ubercharge? if not, what would it be?
I agree with the other commenter
Strip everything but the overheal.
Uber Effect: damage resistance for targets with overheal, rapid overheal for you, but if their overheal drains then they lose it.
@@deftheocelot9125 So, a kind of a mix of the vaccinator and quickfix ubers? Sounds intresting
i wrote the health pack hp as a refrence to another spin off of tf2, Typical Colours 2 on roblox its ok i mean just way more tryhards then tf2 (the weapon is the stock weapon for doctor its just called saw and its a 50% health pack on that game)
but no one asked for this sooooo
Suppressed that scout didn't get used more since he is specifically given low health to balance his high damage and mobility.
"The problem with spy is that you have to stand behind them, which is hard when people are looking at you"
The solution there, it seems to me, is to play the fucking class as its supposed to be played.
I think the point is that while spy can work, it's not going to be the main combat class, and still serves the same role it always did, with the added difficulty of there being pyros everywhere.
Alright. Try to do that in a server full of pyros
@@h4724-q6j in addition because people have so much health fights last longer and and up as blobs when normally people end up dying and moving around and running to the fights more. This means the chance of finding a lone player or group that doesn't have a pyro flame-checking player drops significantly meaning you have way less potential lone or unprotected targets even if you're looking for them.
How are you going to do that when hydrocephalus pyro players are holding down m1 and spinning their view like monkeys?
@@endlesstrash4718 Blobs of players also offer an opportunity, since with a large number of players running around the same space, a Spy can slip in easily and get a few stabs in, especially if that blob is distracted by a fight. Pyro flames would make that hard, but with a little time overhealing 1000 HP would be more than enough to get the job done.
1:21 me trying to trickstab people in tf2 in a nutshell
So the ultimate takeaway from this is, if any class could use any weapon then Scout + Phlog is so strong it warps the meta around it, and if overheal isn't capped then Phlog becomes the core of the meta.
I'll let everyone else come to their own conclusions, but this tells me that the Pyro's limitations are what holds the Phlog back.
Shocking.
Almost like how Scout speed is overpowered on Heavy.
Almost as if classes are deliberately balanced or something.
@@KopperNeoman That refers to class abilities, though. My point is that the Phlog is should probably be nerfed to mini-crits, if it's so precariously balanced.
@@BecCallow1471 The fact that you think mini crits on the phlog is balanced just shows that you have no idea how balance works.
"i held my viewers at gunpoint and politely asked them to partake in the experiment" is a perfect summary of the vibe that shounic gives off, and why i find his passive aggressive tone fucking hilarious
Great vid overall but a little confused on the Spy perspective of things.
Yeah, you won't get backstabs if you just run up to people and start slashing. That's true in vanilla TF2, just that here, you won't get mauled down instantly.
Spy's whole thing is flanking and trickstabs, I don't get why you excluded the latter.
Its hard to do when the fights are so chaotic because almost nobody dies on a second-to-second basis; like he said, you can really only shuffle into a big fight and hope to land a facestab in the confusion, otherwise you'll get burned out or just fail to score points.
And with Pyro being the meta, Spy is all the less effective.
Trickstabs are only useful against gullible players or when latency favors you.
i feel that heavy kritzkrieg was neglected in this. maybe it could would.
With all the grief people give heavy players about how easy he is, it's kind of hilarious that the biggest problem was that no one was any good at tracking with heavy :)
That wasn’t what the problem was :)
pyro: use phlog
sentry: look at me im the airblast now
00:09 - "This temporary health, is capped at 850%"
Are you sure about that?
"A hundred and fifty percent" not "eight hundred and fifty percent"
No overheal and any class can use any weapon would be chaos, like imagine a scout using a Gunslinger, cozy camper the concheror (for passive healing) or the blackbox for 45+ health in total, and using the gun of their choice, and also no overheal limit would be fucking chaos
neat.
bro just watched 6 minutes in 1 minute
@@edohanma im from the future dw
Given the players lack of skill hitting bullets as Heavy, I'm surprised the Natascha wasn't busted out to counteract the difficulty tracking.
Plus, it has the bonus of denying players being able to juke your aim through strafing, because A/D spam to counteract the slow doesn't exactly let you strafe, at least not without aiming away from the Heavy first.
Which means they're spending time not shooting at you while you're shooting them
Nobody remembers Natascha exists, sadly
Any balance changes really make you realize how delicate of a position the phlog is in
the quick fix-ubersaw strat reminds me of the regular medic uber chain, but only one person is required to do it and you're still vulnerable to spies
Cant wait for the Cactus Canyon experiment video
no...........
The way you talk about Spy makes it sound like you've never encountered a competent Spy.
What if the engineer could build multiple sentrys and dispensers...?
cool video btw
Ah yes I hold them at gun point and politely in the same sentence what a polite man
So in other words, it was hell
"If people look at you, you cant backstab"
Matador stab : "Aight, bet"
"i held my veiwers at gunpoint and politely asked to to participate in the experiement"
- shounic 2022
oh man I missed this experiment time. Very interesting with the flames vs airblast distances.
Worth noting that there is a glitch involving the quick fix ubercharge.
Normally you can’t stack healing with multiple medics, but Megaheal is its own status, and as such, the heal rate of a quick fix Uber will be multiplied if there are other medical healing the person you are healing.
This is normally not really that important in actual games but this experiment would have really highlighted that if I came with several friends to cooperate Ubers.
“you have to be behind someone to stab them” is a very funny sentence to say about Spy Teamfortresstwo
Any heavy walking towards a phlog pyro thats taunting is like the level 1 equivalent of an rpg.