I am Dutch and I have difficulty understanding UK and US people. Example: I propose something, and the UK/US counterpart says "that's interesting". As a Dutchman, I think, wow, he thinks it is a good idea, whilst the opposite is true. That has nothing to do with context. In my Dutch cultural book, saying "interesting" when you are not interested, is lying and thus rude towards me.
100% true. They try not to hurt your feelings by using certain words, but they actually hurt you with actions, that were not implied by the words. Just tell me what you think. Much easier.
I do like your arguments. What I would like to add is that the context you refer to is partly culturally implied. As Dutch, we share a cultural understanding about the context. We assume that based on the situation we are in and relation we have with the people we talk to. This is ofcourse absent when talking to people from other cultures. Part of our culture is lack of respect for authority, we do not easily defer to people. We will talk back to our superiors when we think they are mistaken. Also take into account that although we generally speak reasonable English, it is a second language for us, so verbal niceties don't come easily. We tend to beat about the bush in Dutch more than in English.
@@Taylors-Epiphany Please do if you have the opportunity. I would like to point out however that we consider Amsterdam to be the least Dutch city of our country. It is internationally oriented, has large expat and immigrant communities and is the favourite place of the cultural and business elite. Many original Amsterdammers have moved out as housing became ridiculously expensive. And even they are considered a bit 'special'' loud and arrogant and are not always appreciated by the rest of the country.
More consice = less context, you say. And that's correct, although you seem to have a problem with it. You see, when you ask me if i'm coming to your party next friday, and i say no, YOU want to know why. But I, (the Dutch) don't feel the need to explain this, it's not necessary. If only (for you) an explanation satisfies your feelings about my answer, just remember it is You whois making things more complicated, You asked a question, and you got the most clear answer possible. We (the Dutch) do NOT instantly think something negative when the answer is no, it's actually what we want to hear, because it's honest and concise, although we most likely wanted to hear the opposite.
Point is, I don't even care if I'm considered rude. That is part of the directness. If other people want to be elaborate and unclear, at the same time, it's their problem.
As one Dutchie to another. No, being direct doesn't have to be rude. You can be direct, but packaging it a bit differently. For example, instead of saying "That looks crap" you can say "That doesn't suit you". Instead of saying "You're wrong" you can say "I disagree". In my opinion not caring if you're rude is just being lazy with your language and not caring about your fellow man. It's quite selfish.
Neither American nor Dutch here (Serbian living in the US). I feel like your analysis is overly complex. Even though your arguments don't seem wrong, I'm not sure it's the best explanation of what might be going on. What is rude depends on cultural context. You shouldn't try to come up with general truths about the Dutch just because their culture may rub you a certain way (i.e. they might not be generally rude, they just appear rude to you as an American). I think Americans try very hard to (a) avoid conflict, (b) leave a positive impression on people. That's why I think it's common to be overly nice and positive. Also, if there's something negative to say, it is always said in a very layered way (to avoid conflict or making people feel bad, and developing a negative feeling towards you). And the evolution of that is, if someone does not do their best to say things in a layered way, it feels like they are not being respectful/curteous enough to try and "soften the blow" for you, which would be judged as being too blunt. This is not necessarily the approach that other societies take.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. You’re right - we generally do try to avoid conflict when we communicate, especially with family or coworkers. I think that’s why we rhetorical question “how are you?”.
Americans sugarcoat everything and spend more time avoiding the actual subject than talking about the actual subject. Dutch people appreciate practical results.
@@Taylors-Epiphany Dutchman here who worked at Amsterdam Central Station Amsterdam. When you ask a Dutchman: "How are you?" for us that means you want to know how I am. So a Dutchman will answer your question. At the ticket window I would say: "So far so good." because I know Americans don't want to know. And than they were confused. If you ask me a question, expect an answer, otherwise don't ask. Not listening to my answer, in Dutch culture feels very rude! I'm being honnest to you and you dont even take the time to listen to me. So rude! Most Dutch people a have a good level of speaking English, but cultural we are way different.
The English & the people of the USA use language to covert. The Dutch use language to cummunicate. It's actually the best lanuage for commerce and doing trade (concise and correct).
I think @bojankarlas is spot on here. Even to many Dutch people I'm considered as quite direct. I pride myself in being concise and to the point without wasting anyone's time, especially in the workplace. Being rude, to me, means intentionally disregarding someone's feelings, which is rarely what I'm trying to achieve. In The Netherlands, people sugarcoating things are commonly considered as dishonest and therefore not trustworthy. That being said I'm certain there are lots of honest people out there who prefer the sugarcoating way. You are talking about less context = less understanding = perceived as rude. Sugarcoating is quite the opposite of that with the same result. There is too much context which is free for interpretation. The actual message will be in there somewhere for you to find, or not, but eventually you will find out anyway. So... sugarcoating = too much or wrong information = offend someone without immediate response or consequences :)
@@urbandiscount Als je bedoelt per se willen zeggen wat je van iemand vindt (negatief uiteraard), dan kan ik daar zeker in mee gaan, dat voedt alleen maar een negatieve sfeer. Ik heb het met name over mensen die in je gezicht wat anders zeggen dan dat ze werkelijk bedoelen, dus eigenlijk liegen en achterbaks zijn. Ik houd daar niet zo van.
Unless someone has Tourette syndrome people almost never talk out of context. Context is not necessarily verbalized, it can also be situational. The perceived rudeness comes from the Dutch habit of talking straight instead of use of passive-agressive language as ihas become customary in Anglo-Saxon culture. Scandinavians, Eastern Europeans and even Germans for example usually have much less problems with Dutch Directness.
Dutch is a naturally direct language and when translated into English, which is a less direct language you often get a mistranslated meaning which can sound rude
Dutchman here. You are over-thinking it. The Dutch are just as able as anyone in using irony, sarcasm, and providing context at the same time. They (generally) just don't like beating around the bush.
No, it is quite simple. I say what i mean and mean what i say. No context, simply being sincere. The art is not needing extra context or room for interpretation.
Being Dutch I love directness, people who are not direct and beats around the bushes appear to be not honest or even lying. Not all Dutch people are direct, mine experience is that in big cities and in the west people ar more direct.
Example from this Dutch: If you wear a new sweater and ask a Dutch person what he/she thinks of your sweater he/she will not say it looks fine even if even when they think it looks ugly but wil day it looks ugly. 😉
My view as a Dutch person is that one of the reasons for the directness is that Dutch society has always been much more egalitarian than English society. In English society language was also a method to assert one’s role in society. That creates all kinds of hidden language codes that only a native speaker can understand. Dutch society never had the need for that. That being said, Dutch nowadays used within certain social groups does tend to include more figure of speech, anglicisms or abbreviated words.
The Dutch do not usually say things for no reason. Something or someone triggers an interaction. You have context right there. The difference is that English speaking countries prefer the passive-aggressive route. Whereas the Dutch give an honest comment or answer based on their own perspective. Nobody is demanding that you agree, or that the interaction stops there. Feel free to react anyway you wish. Context has got nothing to do with it. It's called honest conversation.
The Dutch are seafaring nation. Back in the days this was a dangerous life. During storms messages from one side of a ship to the other side needed to be short and clear otherwise the next wave of water could be the end of a vessel.
@@Taylors-Epiphany And also the fight against the water. In middle ages if you were rich or poor, they all had to contribute to keep dry feet. So lines are short. Nobility, clergy or farmer. They all are just as important, so very little hierarchy, which also resulted in very direct negotiotions. And there is still little hierarchy. And also Calvinism. The protestant church is organised from bottom to top. Not like catholics with a pope on top. All these cultural differences result into another way of communicatiing. Mean what you say and say what you mean.
i am dutch and what irritates me often in american society is upgrading compliments as a whole. when something is good , dutch tell it is good, not great or fantistic when it is bad is exacly that, bad. if you always upgrade you're compliments, what do you say when you realy think that someting is fantastic, you have no expression for it. by placing everything closer to the ceiling, the you basicly lower the ceilling. stop sugarcoating things by saing the way that is is, and give tips or idea's how to improve on that. directness is not a way just to insult. it is an affective way of comunicating that makes it clear to everyone how it realy is and it makes for more direct and effective comunication.
That’s an interesting point. I agree, American communication standards can sometimes exaggerate opinions. This goes back to my argument that the Dutch are more literal.
American here. We’re generally an exuberant country, hence why we upgrade compliments without even being conscious that we’re doing it. We rely heavily on facial expression, body language, and intonation. When we call something “fantastic”, and we mean it’s fantastic, you’ll usually be able to tell by our big smile or the enthusiasm in our voice. If we call something fantastic and we mean it’s good, we’re usually quieter and more stoic.
I think it comes from the US entertainment centric pov, as the world's biggest supplier of entertainment, they blow everything up in proportion as a carry over of doing so in movies and their theatre. So much you'll see in America has a strong entertainer element to it to the point it's even present in politics where they have to make a big show out of it, while partly understandable since it's an influential country, so it is a big deal in that sense, it's nonetheless even with that in mind over the top and marketed like too much of a show. Entertainment is one of the life bloods of America hence why i think it spills over in everyday speech among everyone.
Interesting theory, but I think you're pretty wrong 🙃 @4:00 "Words are used literally, which is very confusing" Every Dutch person... I'll wait a moment so you can think about what you just said. Perception is a 'you' problem. If I say No, you can just ask me why if you really want to know. But in most cases an explanation is not necessary and sometimes it is none of your business why I say No. Rudeness is essentially breaking social norms. Our social norms simply have a different order I think. Being rude or impatient will be seen as more rude in the Netherlands than (perceived) unkindness or not being neat. I think our view on respect is also different. What is more (dis)respectful, being honest or lying a little to not be rude (in the English/USA way)? To us a white lie is still a lie. What you describe as Understanding is simply BS in most cases and adds nothing, and both parties know that. It's social theater. Dutch people find THAT very rude. This may all sound very rude, but I'm just trying to make my point 🙂
Words are used literally, which is very confusing 😂. Maybe I misspoke. You got me! 😎 And yet, it’s true. Imagine I ask a Dutch waiter “Can I have some mayonnaise?” and the waiter stands there and says “yes” and stares at me. Answering my question literally is confusing because the task is to bring me mayonnaise, not to confirm weather or not he can get it. Thanks for the contribution, by the way!
@@Taylors-Epiphany A waiter who only says Yes is just a troll, the person understands what you mean. But if your your partner only says Yes then it is also very clear that you can just get it yourself and not your waiter. 🙂 Our goal is almost never to be annoying and nasty. In general, the Dutch are very helpful. You should really come and visit sometime.
This argumentation makes no sense. It's based on the presumption that no context is given while being direct, which is a wrong Interpretation of directness
Do you agree that being concise is a quality of being direct? If so, then you necessarily agree that being direct entails a lack of context. Not you specifically - but in general. 👍 thanks for the commentary!
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I am Dutch and I have difficulty understanding UK and US people. Example: I propose something, and the UK/US counterpart says "that's interesting". As a Dutchman, I think, wow, he thinks it is a good idea, whilst the opposite is true. That has nothing to do with context. In my Dutch cultural book, saying "interesting" when you are not interested, is lying and thus rude towards me.
100% true. They try not to hurt your feelings by using certain words, but they actually hurt you with actions, that were not implied by the words. Just tell me what you think. Much easier.
that doesnt mean the rest of the world needs to be miserable micro peened dutchmen tho?
I do like your arguments. What I would like to add is that the context you refer to is partly culturally implied. As Dutch, we share a cultural understanding about the context. We assume that based on the situation we are in and relation we have with the people we talk to. This is ofcourse absent when talking to people from other cultures. Part of our culture is lack of respect for authority, we do not easily defer to people. We will talk back to our superiors when we think they are mistaken. Also take into account that although we generally speak reasonable English, it is a second language for us, so verbal niceties don't come easily. We tend to beat about the bush in Dutch more than in English.
Thanks for the comment. This is helpful for me. I haven’t considered this. I suppose a trip to Amsterdam is in order 🙏
@@Taylors-Epiphany Please do if you have the opportunity. I would like to point out however that we consider Amsterdam to be the least Dutch city of our country. It is internationally oriented, has large expat and immigrant communities and is the favourite place of the cultural and business elite. Many original Amsterdammers have moved out as housing became ridiculously expensive. And even they are considered a bit 'special'' loud and arrogant and are not always appreciated by the rest of the country.
The point about first vs second language is a good point, people generally speak a bit simpler if they understand a language less.
More consice = less context, you say.
And that's correct, although you seem to have a problem with it.
You see, when you ask me if i'm coming to your party next friday, and i say no, YOU want to know why.
But I, (the Dutch) don't feel the need to explain this, it's not necessary.
If only (for you) an explanation satisfies your feelings about my answer, just remember it is You whois making things more complicated, You asked a question, and you got the most clear answer possible.
We (the Dutch) do NOT instantly think something negative when the answer is no, it's actually what we want to hear, because it's honest and concise, although we most likely wanted to hear the opposite.
Point is, I don't even care if I'm considered rude. That is part of the directness. If other people want to be elaborate and unclear, at the same time, it's their problem.
As one Dutchie to another. No, being direct doesn't have to be rude. You can be direct, but packaging it a bit differently. For example, instead of saying "That looks crap" you can say "That doesn't suit you". Instead of saying "You're wrong" you can say "I disagree". In my opinion not caring if you're rude is just being lazy with your language and not caring about your fellow man. It's quite selfish.
Neither American nor Dutch here (Serbian living in the US). I feel like your analysis is overly complex. Even though your arguments don't seem wrong, I'm not sure it's the best explanation of what might be going on. What is rude depends on cultural context. You shouldn't try to come up with general truths about the Dutch just because their culture may rub you a certain way (i.e. they might not be generally rude, they just appear rude to you as an American). I think Americans try very hard to (a) avoid conflict, (b) leave a positive impression on people. That's why I think it's common to be overly nice and positive. Also, if there's something negative to say, it is always said in a very layered way (to avoid conflict or making people feel bad, and developing a negative feeling towards you). And the evolution of that is, if someone does not do their best to say things in a layered way, it feels like they are not being respectful/curteous enough to try and "soften the blow" for you, which would be judged as being too blunt. This is not necessarily the approach that other societies take.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. You’re right - we generally do try to avoid conflict when we communicate, especially with family or coworkers. I think that’s why we rhetorical question “how are you?”.
Americans sugarcoat everything and spend more time avoiding the actual subject than talking about the actual subject. Dutch people appreciate practical results.
@@Taylors-Epiphany Dutchman here who worked at Amsterdam Central Station Amsterdam. When you ask a Dutchman: "How are you?" for us that means you want to know how I am. So a Dutchman will answer your question. At the ticket window I would say: "So far so good." because I know Americans don't want to know. And than they were confused. If you ask me a question, expect an answer, otherwise don't ask. Not listening to my answer, in Dutch culture feels very rude! I'm being honnest to you and you dont even take the time to listen to me. So rude!
Most Dutch people a have a good level of speaking English, but cultural we are way different.
The English & the people of the USA use language to covert. The Dutch use language to cummunicate. It's actually the best lanuage for commerce and doing trade (concise and correct).
I think @bojankarlas is spot on here. Even to many Dutch people I'm considered as quite direct. I pride myself in being concise and to the point without wasting anyone's time, especially in the workplace. Being rude, to me, means intentionally disregarding someone's feelings, which is rarely what I'm trying to achieve. In The Netherlands, people sugarcoating things are commonly considered as dishonest and therefore not trustworthy. That being said I'm certain there are lots of honest people out there who prefer the sugarcoating way. You are talking about less context = less understanding = perceived as rude. Sugarcoating is quite the opposite of that with the same result. There is too much context which is free for interpretation. The actual message will be in there somewhere for you to find, or not, but eventually you will find out anyway. So... sugarcoating = too much or wrong information = offend someone without immediate response or consequences :)
het kan wel wat minder hoor, met dat calvinistische vertoon van "de waarheid zeggen¨. Deden mensen het maar wat minder.
@@urbandiscount Als je bedoelt per se willen zeggen wat je van iemand vindt (negatief uiteraard), dan kan ik daar zeker in mee gaan, dat voedt alleen maar een negatieve sfeer. Ik heb het met name over mensen die in je gezicht wat anders zeggen dan dat ze werkelijk bedoelen, dus eigenlijk liegen en achterbaks zijn. Ik houd daar niet zo van.
Unless someone has Tourette syndrome people almost never talk out of context. Context is not necessarily verbalized, it can also be situational.
The perceived rudeness comes from the Dutch habit of talking straight instead of use of passive-agressive language as ihas become customary in Anglo-Saxon culture.
Scandinavians, Eastern Europeans and even Germans for example usually have much less problems with Dutch Directness.
Holy shit, can you get to the point? (Yes, I’m Dutch)
😂 love it. You’re right. I’m a bit too long-winded.
@paulafaber8589
@@Taylors-Epiphany 😉👍🏻
Lol😂
@@hanslinden5289 👍
Dutch is a naturally direct language and when translated into English, which is a less direct language you often get a mistranslated meaning which can sound rude
4:12 Words mean what they mean and that is very confusing. Is that what you said? How can that be confusing?
😂 You might be right. Too funny.
Dutchman here. You are over-thinking it. The Dutch are just as able as anyone in using irony, sarcasm, and providing context at the same time. They (generally) just don't like beating around the bush.
Try directness combined with sarcasm. It's hilarious!!!
No, it is quite simple. I say what i mean and mean what i say. No context, simply being sincere. The art is not needing extra context or room for interpretation.
There's always context. In the Netherlands it's cultural; it doesn't need saying between Dutchies, but offends a lot of foreigners.
Being Dutch I love directness, people who are not direct and beats around the bushes appear to be not honest or even lying. Not all Dutch people are direct, mine experience is that in big cities and in the west people ar more direct.
Nonsense
@@urbandiscount😂
It would've helped if you gave some examples. Now I'm kind of lost. Is this very dutch? :P
Example from this Dutch: If you wear a new sweater and ask a Dutch person what he/she thinks of your sweater he/she will not say it looks fine even if even when they think it looks ugly but wil day it looks ugly. 😉
A very quick way for me to sift through the BS is usually: "Do you want a polite answer or do you want the uncomfortable truth?"
My view as a Dutch person is that one of the reasons for the directness is that Dutch society has always been much more egalitarian than English society. In English society language was also a method to assert one’s role in society. That creates all kinds of hidden language codes that only a native speaker can understand. Dutch society never had the need for that. That being said, Dutch nowadays used within certain social groups does tend to include more figure of speech, anglicisms or abbreviated words.
The Dutch do not usually say things for no reason. Something or someone triggers an interaction. You have context right there.
The difference is that English speaking countries prefer the passive-aggressive route.
Whereas the Dutch give an honest comment or answer based on their own perspective. Nobody is demanding that you agree, or that the interaction stops there. Feel free to react anyway you wish.
Context has got nothing to do with it. It's called honest conversation.
I suppose. I’ll have to think about what you’re saying more 👍
Nice video, but a bit too much cutaways 👍
Thank you! I’ll have to take it easy on the cutaways going forward.
The Dutch are seafaring nation. Back in the days this was a dangerous life. During storms messages from one side of a ship to the other side needed to be short and clear otherwise the next wave of water could be the end of a vessel.
I’ve heard this is actually the origin of Dutch directness. Interesting point. Thanks for the commentary 👍
@@Taylors-Epiphany And also the fight against the water. In middle ages if you were rich or poor, they all had to contribute to keep dry feet. So lines are short. Nobility, clergy or farmer. They all are just as important, so very little hierarchy, which also resulted in very direct negotiotions. And there is still little hierarchy. And also Calvinism. The protestant church is organised from bottom to top. Not like catholics with a pope on top. All these cultural differences result into another way of communicatiing. Mean what you say and say what you mean.
Sorry but you have way too many short clips in this video. It gets the flow out of it. This is me being direct, I'm Dutch 😀
@PH61a thanks for the feedback 🙏
love your videos
Thank you!
i am dutch and what irritates me often in american society is upgrading compliments as a whole.
when something is good , dutch tell it is good, not great or fantistic
when it is bad is exacly that, bad.
if you always upgrade you're compliments, what do you say when you realy think that someting is fantastic, you have no expression for it.
by placing everything closer to the ceiling, the you basicly lower the ceilling.
stop sugarcoating things by saing the way that is is, and give tips or idea's how to improve on that.
directness is not a way just to insult.
it is an affective way of comunicating that makes it clear to everyone how it realy is and it makes for more direct and effective comunication.
That’s an interesting point. I agree, American communication standards can sometimes exaggerate opinions. This goes back to my argument that the Dutch are more literal.
American here. We’re generally an exuberant country, hence why we upgrade compliments without even being conscious that we’re doing it.
We rely heavily on facial expression, body language, and intonation. When we call something “fantastic”, and we mean it’s fantastic, you’ll usually be able to tell by our big smile or the enthusiasm in our voice. If we call something fantastic and we mean it’s good, we’re usually quieter and more stoic.
Lingual inflation... I hate it. I mean, I don't like it
I think it comes from the US entertainment centric pov, as the world's biggest supplier of entertainment, they blow everything up in proportion as a carry over of doing so in movies and their theatre. So much you'll see in America has a strong entertainer element to it to the point it's even present in politics where they have to make a big show out of it, while partly understandable since it's an influential country, so it is a big deal in that sense, it's nonetheless even with that in mind over the top and marketed like too much of a show. Entertainment is one of the life bloods of America hence why i think it spills over in everyday speech among everyone.
Interesting theory, but I think you're pretty wrong 🙃
@4:00 "Words are used literally, which is very confusing"
Every Dutch person... I'll wait a moment so you can think about what you just said.
Perception is a 'you' problem. If I say No, you can just ask me why if you really want to know. But in most cases an explanation is not necessary and sometimes it is none of your business why I say No.
Rudeness is essentially breaking social norms.
Our social norms simply have a different order I think.
Being rude or impatient will be seen as more rude in the Netherlands than (perceived) unkindness or not being neat.
I think our view on respect is also different. What is more (dis)respectful, being honest or lying a little to not be rude (in the English/USA way)? To us a white lie is still a lie.
What you describe as Understanding is simply BS in most cases and adds nothing, and both parties know that. It's social theater. Dutch people find THAT very rude.
This may all sound very rude, but I'm just trying to make my point 🙂
Words are used literally, which is very confusing 😂. Maybe I misspoke. You got me! 😎
And yet, it’s true. Imagine I ask a Dutch waiter “Can I have some mayonnaise?” and the waiter stands there and says “yes” and stares at me. Answering my question literally is confusing because the task is to bring me mayonnaise, not to confirm weather or not he can get it.
Thanks for the contribution, by the way!
@@Taylors-Epiphany A waiter who only says Yes is just a troll, the person understands what you mean.
But if your your partner only says Yes then it is also very clear that you can just get it yourself and not your waiter. 🙂
Our goal is almost never to be annoying and nasty. In general, the Dutch are very helpful. You should really come and visit sometime.
You don't have a clue about what Dutch directness intails. But nice try.
This argumentation makes no sense. It's based on the presumption that no context is given while being direct, which is a wrong Interpretation of directness
Do you agree that being concise is a quality of being direct? If so, then you necessarily agree that being direct entails a lack of context. Not you specifically - but in general. 👍 thanks for the commentary!
Not being offended, is not a human right.