You nailed my exact feelings on this! I love that you brought up the aesthetic of the Tears dungeons, something is just off about them. Dungeons on the N64 feel more alive and lived in then the dungeons in Tears, there's no excuse for that.
Exactly. The dungeons and Temples in the older games - especially Ocarina and Twilight - feel like real places that already existed as their own entity that then BECAME dungeons; that you're there after the fact and on a mission with purpose, in a real location. The Wild games are just bigger shrines that clearly only exist to be shrines: a puzzle with no purpose. There's no sense of legend or epic feel; you don't feel like you're trespassing somewhere sacred or abandoned or haunted, but instead feel like... just another Shrine. In essence, they feel like a video game, and that breaks my immersion. At almost no time in the Wild games do they NOT feel like a video game, and the copy pasted enemies don't help that.
An open world Zelda game that _actually has_ traditional items like the hookshot, boomerang, etc. would be AMAZING. It wouldn't even be that hard to give each dungeon an exclusive item, but you can collect them in any order and each item can improve your ability to explore. As an example... Imagine if instead of getting all the Shiekah Slate runes on the great plateau, instead you have to travel to the Divine Beasts to get them. That's kinda how it would work. You don't _need_ the runes to properly explore the world, but you can't do specific objectives without them. It would keep the open-world aspects of letting the player choose their own path, because they can decide for themselves what item they need first (it would also incentivize actually _doing_ the dungeons outside of just the story). When people say it wouldn't be possible to have traditional dungeons in an open-world, I don't understand what they are talking about. It would be fairly straightforward honestly.
The are a lot of issues with the BotW/TotK dungeons but I think losing new items gained like a boomerang or hookshot etc really hurts progression and limits the unique puzzles that are possible...
it is more to do with how the puzzles are designed. good puzzles that don't need items can still work but the problem lies more with the resources given to you that let you cheese the puzzles. for example, re-call can allow for several unintended solutions when combined with ultra hand. even in previous entries, the hover boots, roc's cape, beetle, bomb arrows, and cane of somaria act as double edged swords. they can allow for creative obstacles but also can bypass them too easily. it really comes down to how the items are designed. synergy is very important for good item design instead of simply hitting a switch with the bow or hammer.
literally been trying to convince my gf to play the older zelda games bc she doesn't believe me when I say switch zelda dungeons are mid compared to the OGs
@@hanburgundy4317 they stepped it up a little in totk but the switch games still have nothing on the N64-Wii era of zelda games, especially in terms of dungeon design
I agree, something I REALLY miss is the temple only enemies, subosses AND KEY ITEMS ;( I hated that we had the golems in the wind temple it felt so random and out of place, at least the gerudo dungeon had gibdos.
I know I'm responding to an 8 month post but the gibdos in TotK were such massive disappointments. Why does Nintendo always disappoint with the modern Zelda games? I saw the gibdos in the trailers and I were anticipated, only to learn that they're lame enemies who can be easily killed with elemental attacks... No screaming or freezing powers either. They do not even deal decent damage. The most boring type of gibdos/redeads in 3D Zelda games. I also completely agree with the videos.
@@asurawrath7801It's ok, from my experience most TH-cam commenters don't care about you responding to old posts unless you're disagreeing with or correcting them. Unlike on say Reddit, where people get mad at you for replying to a 2 month old comment/reply.
If they're not going to do traditional dungeons anymore then they have to replace it with something better. And they very much did not do that. Instead they doubled down on the Divine Beast system that boils down to 'reach the 4 terminals'. You could give BotW a pass for experimenting, but this system wasn't worth bringing back in TotK.
And there is absolutely ZERO reason to not have traditional dungeons. I know they want to have a completely open world…but Skyrim can do it just fine. Just imagine what the Zelda team could do with a completely open world format combined with traditional dungeons. It would be a masterpiece.
@@Tyler_Owen23Exactly! They could've been printing money if they did that. You know bare minimum Nintendo, they love to cut corners and recycle content. Which is why we waited 6 years for TOTK just to get $70 BOTW DLC.
@@chocov1233 True, bit it wont last forever if they dont realize they cant keep doing the same things without people noticing. TOTK had amazing sales at thr start, but quickly playeaued once people had enough time with it, realized how much was copy-pasted from last game and how bad/retcon-filled the new story and lore was. Then the sales, the hype, and the talk of the game died down in less than a year.
"Collection of shrines" has been my favorite description for almost as long as the game's been out. There's little in the way of inter-dependency across different parts of the dungeon, stuff like pushing a block down a hole to make the room below solvable, or those colored pegs from the top-down games. Progression is important because it lets the game reward the player's achievement with more dungeon. If the player has access to the whole dungeon right away, then all it can do is pat the player on the back "3 more things left." A weakness you don't mention, there isn't really much OTHER than puzzles. Where are the obstacle courses of traps? Platforming? Cagefights? Obtaining a new item is not necessary for a good dungeon, but it's effect on dungeon design is extremely beneficial. I guess the sages powers were supposed to be the "item," but the dungeon design didn't use that nearly as much. You mention the exposed gears in the Wind Temple being out of place. I find in the majority of Zelda dungeons you have to suspend your disbelief for their "video game level" design. Not all, but most. The Fire Temple was one of two dungeons where I couldn't use the map as a crutch, where I had to rely on Link's eyeballs and my mental picture of the place, as it should be. The other, of course, being the "Courage to Fall" shrine.
What I also don't like is that the game gives you too many options to just...skip dungeons. The water dungeon in totk is especially guilty of this, if you have a decent flying machine you can reach all the switches fairly easy. It requires little to no thinking to solve. Meanwhile, in older dungeons if you were stuck, you were stuck and had to figure it out.
The amount of thinking required to solve the shrine puzzles is nearly zero and puzzle variation is also lacking. People will say Tears gives me the freedom to approach and solve a puzzle in a unique way, but who wants or needs to solve a puzzle "creatively" that a 5 year old could figure out
I knew it wouldn’t match up to elden ring, but I was hoping for an upgrade to breath of the wild, and i dont think we even got that in a level design sense, beyond what you can build in that area. Everything feels nicer to travel through, but you’re traveling through the same Everything over and over. Everything is so open that every Link’s adventure could be so different because of the open ended question the game asks of you. That’s appealing, every adventure is different, but it’s not specific enough to have any kick to it. Because we all Know that we can build a spring and shoot ourselves wherever we want in the dungeon and after getting from point A to point B with uninspired enemies in between each, four or five times, Four Times Over, and then a fun spectacle boss or annoying challenge boss. I would say the new formula for Zelda is like asking an open ended question from the developer’s perspective, so we can only give open-ended answers. It’s not a detailed enough question for the answer to satisfy us. Shrine keys but no dungeon keys, locked doors that we can phase through, all of these seemingly nitpicking things add up. There are too many consequences for the series going forward that make me a bit turned off because as far as I can see the devs aren’t interested in making things more dialed down and specific. This may sound stupid, but I know all the maps in all the dark souls games because I had to survive through them and map it in my head. I can’t map breath of the wild/ tears of the kingdom dungeons(except hyrule castle itself) despite them being smaller than the entirety of souls levels because they are so simple and straightforward that I can’t get lost. Compare this to older zelda dungeons, where if you dont have a map, you probably wont remember where to go next because of the complex layouts, and if you dont have a compass, you dont have what you need from a dungeon yet, so you cant fight the boss with the big key after enjoying a fully crafted dungeon from the devs. And we were inspired by the answers they allowed us to give, because they asked specific enough questions of us. I can hope I forget the dungeons and enjoy them again sometime soon at least, because I do love the game. It’s because I love it that I see where it falls short, I think.
One thing that also kind of kills Tears in particular for me is the sages. I know Link in 3D is typically never truly alone in these games, but as a player, you effectively are. If the Lightning Temple was meant to be creepy, on top of failing that through aesthetics, progression, tension, and music, having Riju (or the ghosts) by your side at all times kills one other thing that made the Shadow Temple creepy. There's never a sense of isolation that aids in making Zelda temples very atmospheric. You always have another NPC there by your side helping you.
Even if you put aside the lack of key items or a thematic identity, I think you make a great point about non-linearity. The freedom that provides comes at the cost of the satisfying direction of classic dungeon design. I personally really enjoy the feeling of seeing the hand of the creator orchestrating a journey through a dungeon that builds in complexity until a powerful conclusion. I don't get that feeling from BotW or TotK. I suppose some players like the feeling of how you can solve a lot of the new Zelda puzzles in "their own way", but to me that comes at the cost of a well-paced and directed experience and I find that much more valuable. And on the topic of the identity, the Wind Temple in TotK is such a good example. In my limited time with that game, the highlight by far was getting to the Wind Temple. It was a genuinely exciting lead-up and spectacle with high stakes as you climbed higher and higher. Normally, that would be when the dungeon itself would begin, but instead my enjoyment deflated completely when the ark itself was a disconnected set of puzzles. The boss was solid enough, but it didn't save the experience. In my opinion, the lack of key items *really* hurts these "dungeons". Hell, if they really don't want anything to affect progress in the main game, at least introduce something specific to the dungeon that will give it some sense of forward momentum!
I got so bored playing BotW, I never finished it, and I didn't get TotK. It's a shame, because I love Zelda, and the director has said that it's all going to be more open world like those two going forward (and that he doesn't get why anyone likes the older games, apart from nostalgia!?!). You can have open world and good dungeons. Sequence breaking is a thing. You can do both.
@@megaman37456 How tho? There are no unique enemy types, easy puzzles, and it lasts like 20 minutes. The disappointment I felt after beating it was what made me drop the game
Great video, agree so much with your points here. The dungeons were one of the reasons why i fell in love with the Zelda series. What baffles me is that they have made an open-world zelda game with traditional dungeons. A Link Between Worlds. sure, it's not as open world as BOTW/TOTK but you could do those dungeons in any order.
One of the main reasons why I played Zelda games in the first place was because of the dungeons. And now they’re gone. This series is seriously starting to lose my interest since Botw.
For real. It really seems like the series is dead, and the devs don't care - they'd rather cater to the new fans that love copy and paste easy shrines.
@@nellcrud8082it’s his opinion. I think it’s a good game, however my problem is the scale. Developers need to stop making games too big. The map is just far too big for me to feel like I’m making any progress. I understand that you can say “why don’t you go fight Gannon now?” And that just adds to my problems with botw and totk. I really don’t like that I can beat a $70 game the second I get freedom. As long as I’m good enough right. I was really hoping they wouldn’t make it like this in totk but here we are
@@pressaTDSorry for your loss, I recently lost my dog of 10 years. So I know the pain. I hope it’s gotten easier in the few months since this videos release.
I was pretty forgiving of BOTW when it came to the dungeons because of all the cool and interesting changes they made to the formula. Especially when it comes to exploration. Now that TOTK has come and gone and I've had time to reflect, compare, and contrast I'm far less forgiving on just how terrible all of the dungeons were in both BOTW and TOTK. Seriously out of every Zelda title I would honestly rank BOTW and Tears of the Kingdom's dungeons as some of if not the worst in the entire series. Quality dungeons and the stories leading up to them are the biggest thing that make a Zelda game stand out compared to their counterparts. Both BOTW and TOTK severely underwhelm on what should be the most important element that makes a Zelda game stand out. I will say definitely that I never want to see another type of go anywhere and activate X number of nodes to enter the final boss room in a Zelda game ever again.
The fact they left them out on purpose is baffling. BotW and TotK mixed with traditional dungeons would be the chefs kiss! It would literally be this generations OoT.
i hate that mainstream gaming outlets lick these games boots without ever acknowledging how shitty the dungeons are, and how shitty the story is, all in the name of stupid open world
This is my exact issue with the series for years. My friend got BoTW and ToTK and loves them. He has never played the N64, GC, Wii, or any of the handheld versions. This was his introduction to the series and he doesn't understand my frustration. Without proper dungeons this doesn't feel like a zelda game. Sure you have the setting and story but it feels almost hollow. I love being lead through a heroes tale. They did an amazing job with the open world aspect. Breathing life into the people and the environment itself. But failed in one of the biggest aspects of a zelda game. Until Nintendo makes dungeons better I'm taking a back seat on LoZ games which hurts since they make up 2 of my top 5 games.
TLDR at the bottom... This could be a very unpopular opinion, but I believe it's part of the reason they didn't fix the dungeons in TOTK.... The team focused on the absolute complete waste of time and space called The Depths. Everything is the same color pallette, same trees, same rocks, same everything (Minus the Fire Temple location, it felt the most like a proper Zelda dungeon). The Depths are just not fun to explore. Pitch black, mindless zoanite mining, and Reversed Imaged Shrines. The first time or two I dropped down a chasm was cool, but once I realized eveything looks and feels exactly the same, I lost interest. To me, its just useless padding to obtaining a full energy belt and it's a chore hunting down zoanite; which is needed if you really wanna go nuts with creating cool gadgets (ya know, one of the main new features) Why would Nintendo make you mine for resources needed in order to build devices? Why not just an item limiter to the number of shit you can add on screen at one time? Want to build a hovercraft? Tough shit, you're out out resources. Better go drop down a big hole, wander around in the dark, find some zoanite, then fast travel back to where you wanted to build your hovercraft..... the whole process is pointless. TLDR; Sky Islands and overworld are great, The Depths are shit, time could have been spent making proper dungeons.
Tbh I feel like botw was a chore to play too because I hate shrines and climbing the towers. Feels even worse in totk though because I’ve already explored the world in botw. Went back to botw after totk and I actually think the divine beasts were better than the totk dungeons. I don’t like that both of them are non linear, but I feel like the divine beasts were more complex and interesting in design.
I was so amazed when I discovered the depths, but when I figured out that there's nothing to do down there, I was so dissapointed If they scraped the depths and focused on changing the overworld, making better dungeons and more sky islands, Tears of the Kingdom would be really goated
@juannaym8488 For real - I absolutely hate the Depths. They're ugly, bland, and boring, and utterly repetitive. I was amazed and excited when I first found them - then after exploring for two hours I never wanted to return. TOTK was the biggest letdown since BOTW. Sadly, it seems the Zelda series - like everything else I grew up loving - has been unrecognizably changed for the worse.
I'd describe nintendo's open world LoZ games as, 'what if you smashed gmod minecraft and skyrim together'. Expansive looking but everything from the terrain to the enemies to the collectables are copy & pasted to oblivion, the gameplay may be reactionary but never gets more challenging than maintenance grinding because everything was designed to be simultaneously accessible, the puzzles may as well be nonexistent as they're either breaking an obstacle or moving one into a useful spot, and the items are effectively creator tools for being exploitable without being interesting to use in and of themselves.
two biggest things i agree on: 1.Underwhelming dungeon design. i was pumped to SEE the dungeons in TOTK, but by the end of each, realized that they were just divine beasts with skins. 2. Lack of progression items. One of the best parts of older titles was finding things in the overworld that would stump you after exhausting all current options, and then reaching the next dungeon and getting an item that you immediately realize is crucial to your earlier dilemma. it made the world feel more cohesive, and gave extra emphasis to the whole "chosen one" aspect by giving exclusive rewards for things only the player has access to. I think these things are crucial to the spirit of the franchise, and i don't think an open world is an excuse to lose them or a sufficient replacement for them. Share this video to save the next Zelda. lol.
I'm gonna give my hot take. Fuse is bad. It is the one power that gets used for 95% of the puzzles, and they all end up boiling down to using the items they leave in the room without any real thought. Oh, a sandpit. I wonder if I need to build a bridge with the 3 pieces of wood they have in the room. Oh, a gear that's just too short to move the second gear. I wonder if I need to use the piece of wood they left me. Oh, a pool of lava, I wonder if I need to use the hydrant. It's not a creative puzzle game, it's putting a square peg in a square hole. They do very little interesting with the concept. And really, how often do you get to mix your powers? BOTW had more limited powers in a sense, but they made way better puzzles. Not to say that BOTW had a lot of great ones, but they were better than TOLK. Both games suffer from a pretty unfortunate problem of having a couple of tricks. Once you know those tricks, you've solved every puzzle at a glance. So you get a great first few hours, then it kinda feels like going through the motions.
Your point about a lack of progression in BOTW & TOTK's dungeons hits the nail on the head for me. And I didn't even realize that was what I disliked about them before this video. I think there is far too much emphasis on not being "railroaded" in games now adays. There's a difference between "I'm going to hold your hand and force you though everything so you can't discover anything about the game on your own." (Skyward Sword) and "Let me gently guide you through the story I want to tell. You're going to go where I want you to but you won't realize it until we're long done." (I don't have an example but you get it.) Are you being railroaded or is the game guiding you through a story?
I loved Skyward Sword and don't understand how so many people hated it - it's one of the best feelings of adventure, and the story spurs you onward. The puzzles were unique and made great use of the motion controls - everything did. Man, the Wild games are a massive letdown.
@@hanburgundy4317 Absolutely valid, I just never got past having to fight the Imprisoned three times and got frustrated with the controls too much. I also haven't tried it since, like, 2013 so maybe I could change my mind.
Out of all the Dungeon types, I think the Water and Forest Dungeon types were done the Dirtiest. The water one is kinda understandable, the OoT and MM water temple dungeons were so infamous that they're considered major examples to everything wrong with water levels in general. And the BotW and TotK dungeons feel like they tried their best to distance themselves from that. Though the way the did it, kinda wound up distancing themselves from water-based mechanics so much that they don't really actually feel like water mechanics as much as they do regular mechanics with a "water" aesthetic. And honestly? I don't think we've actually had a proper Forest or Jungle Dungeon since Twilight Princess. Skyward sword just had a Regular Crypt/Ruins area for their forest region.
I think OoT water temple/great bay have a reputation for being hard but i don't think they should be considered what not to do. Imo they're great dungeons
Being hard does NOT equal being "wrong". There's nothing wrong with OoT/MM's water temples. Especially OoT just suffers with the tedious task of opening the menu each time to switch boots. Unforgiving? Now that they are.
I'm less concerned with whether or not a dungeon in botw/totk feels like a Zelda dungeon and more concerned with whether or not those dungeons feel good. To me, what matters most is that the dungeons are interesting challenges with satisfying progression, and whether or not that makes it feel like Zelda isn't the thing I'm concerned with. When I was playing the wind temple in totk, I initially ran into a puzzle with a solution that was so simple, yet I did it incorrectly and had assumed that I needed to explore to find the solution. I was incredibly disappointed when I found out that the solution was just to use Ultrahand to attack an item to a cog so I could turn it, because I felt like I should have been able to turn the cog without needing to attach something to it first, and when I couldn't do that, I ended up overestimating the challenge of the dungeon. All the dungeons ended up boring me for the most part because of this, but ultimately I wasn't thinking "This doesn't feel like Zelda". Instead I was thinking "This is boring"
I hate open world Zelda dungeons and shrines. Hated the last two games… lazy trash. Instead of having puzzles in shrines, the old Zelda games integrated them into their worlds and dungeons. Also nothing worse than completing a side quest & being rewarded a shrine… Themes, music, uniqueness… all missing in the last two games. MM, OOT, WW, TP, SS, all better Zelda games than the last two.
ITS ON EVERYTHING NOT JUST ZELDA, POKEMON GETTING EASIER , MONSTER HUNTER GET EASIER, MARIO GET EASIER, STREETFIGHTER GET EASIER AND SO MANY MORE, gaming nowaday has no more challenge, all just BIG SALE, BUG and A MASSIVE GUIDE TEXT ON EVERYTHING FROM DIALOG TO SIMPLY FULL GAME DIRECTION
Nintendo especially is making games more accessible and user friendly because they want everyone, including kids and beginners to be able to play, enjoy, and beat their games. That’s why sometimes side content is crazy difficult, but it’s all about accessibility because believe it or not, Nintendo’s main audience includes families, kids, and new players. Not to mention that games back in the day seemed more difficult to most of us because we were younger and more experienced, but now they’re much easier. They also were intentionally stupid difficult to extend the life of the games due to hardware limitations. Many games I struggled with as a kid are much easier now as an adult. I understand some people like challenges, and that’s why I would say they should incorporate difficulty settings into more games so that veteran players can get the challenge they want. At the end of the day, they’re going to cater towards their larger audience and that’s just not older and experienced players for the most part.
I agree with this 100%. Dungeons are an integral part of what makes Zelda and diminishing their value diminishes the game. Nintendo last got dungeons right in A Link Between Worlds, and should make it a big focus in the upcoming Echoes of Wisdom, which has a huge potential to be a better Zelda game than Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.
I have put more hours in BOTW than in other zelda game, did all the shrines. I dont remember anything about the dungeons but the elephant trunk mechanic. I dont remember any shrine at all, but the one where you had to tilt the switch, which sucked (so... I remembered it for the wrong reasons).
Modern Zelda looks & feels too 'cartoony' & not a dangerous adventure like TP, oot, majora's mask & they need to bring back harder longer dungeons, a real soundtrack & harder difficulty. Zelda was always the more mature franchise, while Mario was for kids
Ideally, Nintendo would create a second team to focus on linear Zelda games while the first team continues to work on open world Zelda games. The development cycle of Zelda games has been getting too long anyway (gone is the 1 year cycle of Majoras Mask). This would solve this problem while also satisfying both sides of the fanbase. Nintendo would be printing money.
Majora's was the exception, not the rule. And that only had a 1 year development cycle because they shamelessly recycled assets around every corner and padded the game like no one's business. I love Majora's Mask, but it was far from the most fleshed out game in the series. And no, they wouldn't be printing money. The open world games sell astronomically better. Why waste resources developing a game that will never sell as well?
I agree with this, but I don't think I'd like the dungeons in the game without a linear structure to the game itself. Link Between Worlds had dungeons, but because you could do them in any order they were all as easy and simple as the first dungeon. Renting the item beforehand also ruined a lot of the appeal of them for me since every dungeon not only is there no struggle through the dungeon before you get the item, but all your other items are not required. If they bring back dungeons in this new open air style it'll probably just be like Hyrule Castle in BOTW, just another place you can explore with your _freedom._
I honestly could get over the simplicity of the design if they put a better and harder mix of enemies in the Temples. I think a combat challenge in each using lynels and others for key drops could have helped, like minibosses. Also I'm surprised they didnt make the rewards more meaningful from the dungeons. For instance walls only Yunobo can break, the water splash, the gust, and the lightning arrow all could have unlocked areas like extra dungeons in different areas of the world than their original ones. We just want some linear areas that feel unique, I dont understand why they hate the idea so much. They could still add another four or so actual dungeons as dlc still for endgame but it looks like low odds for that happening at this point.
I stand by the idea BOTW killed the Zelda series. It would have been an awesome game if it simply weren't Zelda. Instead, now the expectation is these giant worlds with copy paste puzzles because " look how much stuff there is" even if its absolutely soulless
Thank you! Finally, someone agrees with me about the lack of good dungeon design in BotW and TotK. The dungeons should be linear! The modern style makes them so boring and uninspired. Bring back small keys and interconnected layouts. Challenge rooms and mini bosses. The new dungeons are just copy and paste switches. Nintendo did the most lazy surface level visual improvements for TotK dungeons.
"The open world nature makes it imposible to have traditional dungeons" is the stupidest excuse I've ever heard. Skyrim came out over a decade ago, and it managed to, somehow, have more interesting dungeons. And you know things are effed up when Skyrim dungeons seem good in comparison.
Ir randomizers have taught us something, is that linearity and openworldness aren't diametrically opposed. And that's the core aspect metroidvania have embraced ever since their origin: The Expanding Open World. The only thing metroidvanias lack is the order in which parts of the world would open, and that's where randomizers came in. Of we apply that same "pick your path" formula to a new game, we could have a Zelda game that has the whole map open, but combat and mobility are expanded as mid-way & completion rewards for the dungeons scattered on it. Similar on how getting Revali's gale trivialized a lot of the puzzles in the rest of divine beasts accidentally; but make that an intended path choice.
You have worded my own thoughts so well. I *wish* the dungeons were more linear seamlessly meshed with the open world instead of being what seems to be one big room completely instances away from the open world which seems to be a waste....
One more thing about the open world discussion: Literally the VERY FIRST Zelda game was already open world, at least kind of. Even 30 years ago we already had a big world to explore and we could theoretically do the dungeons in any order we want, well apart for some of the key items you get in them. Why is it now suddenly not possible to do something like this anymore?
I do love that Zelda has gone open world but sadly the Dungeons are barely that. Dungeons. I guess Nintendo feels cause they worked so much on the open world and added the sky islands in the sequel (Which probably shows how much more lazy they are seeing they still neglected to make Dungeons good again) they believe "Oh fans will care more about exploring the world and doing the quests so they won't care about the Dungeons anymore nor care much that the story is not as strong as it was in other games" then when Tears of the Kingdom came out "Huh. Looks like people complained about Dungeons. Lets add some more stuff to the Shri...I mean Dungeons. They won't notice as they will like all the new stuff added to the world and the Sky Islands" Yeah Nintendo clearly has gotten lazy as it does show in some of the newer games and the fact that we have been getting more and more remasters of games or games that were from the Wii U coming to the Switch. Well they have not done the latter as much. I mean these are 2 great Zelda Games but they should actually put effort in Dungeons again as the Shrines and Beasts are kinda boring to do. Sure some of them make you think but not as long as the older games did. Hell I remember first doing Snow Peak (Twilight Princess was the first Zelda game I played and was what got me into Zelda) I remember being stuck for a few days cause I did not know where to go or if I was missing a Key. Even Hyrule Castle was confusing since there were doors that can't seem to be open at all and that Court Yard that is not even important to reaching the final boss. I mean yes it was annoying at the time but it still shows that they put effort in their Dungeons back then. With how Nintendo is lately with being lazy and trying to squeeze money by putting online gaming behind a paywall and not letting us purchase classic games to play on the Switch to buy once and that is it it just shows they have became more interested in profit but again do not wish to put as much effort. They seem to sadly only come out with a great game every once in awhile and that is sad.
For dungeon music, I actually think that totk's problem is the opposite to what was said here. The themes were great but there's just way too many of them. Each dungeon has 5 completely different themes making each one less impactful. I actually think the divine beasts handled it better (and actually well) with a core melody that grows louder and gains more instruments with each terminal activated, as if the beast is coming back to life again. The dungeon music in botw and totk were some of the best musical moments in the games, and some I rank among my favourites in the series.
I was really excited for the launch of tears of the kingdom because I thought they would keep the good and bring back many things from previous Zelda games with the long development because I thought they were cooking us something really special, I was disappointed because the development time was 6 fucking years but is too similar to breath of the wild, a game I already didn’t like.I think there was so much missed potential and especially still lacking Zelda staples like the hook shot or claw shot.They could have made it so you can add more chain to the hook shot without breaking the game, they could have even added the double claw shots as an upgrade like in twilight princess which would make exploring the empty worlds of these two games much more exciting.
I did like the Divine Beasts (yeah, weird enough) but I do agree that a sense of progression needs to be reaffirmed in the open world Zelda games. That feeling the old dungeons cause wasn't there in BOTW, and there's many easy ways it could've been fixed. Still, BOTW is one of my fav Zelda games of all times
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0:29 - 0:36 Absolutely agree. I've never played both BotW and TotK and I never will. I may be biased for older Zelda games, but "Open World Zelda" doesn't work for me.
@@nellcrud8082 Not only that.. You could say that every Zelda is "kinda" Open World, other than the first two being pretty much Open World since you have no idea where to go. Guess I couldn't put my thoughts correctly into words.
@@nellcrud8082The original Zelda still had items and linear dungeons, so pretending like Totk calls back to it's "roots"when it gets rid of some of the best parts in that game.
but the two newest games are the two best selling, so it's just gonna get worse from here. looks like we gotta play the old games or indie zelda-likes edit: the newer zelda games are watered down as to imitate the kind of brain dead, numbing, tried and true open world formula that the average consumer will have no problem with and will never get stuck on. the old ones were intentionally punishing and frustrating as to subsequently make finishing one feel deeply rewarding. modern nintendo is scared of that. the only way we can fix this disaster is by boycotting future releases that don't fix the problem, which will never happen, because og fans that have played any zelda that got the formula right are few and far between rip auto
The dungeons suck, The story Itself Is too small for how large the world Is, The world Is too big (Specially Totk), The world of botw and (Specially) totk reminds me of FF 1-9 world map and the start of totk reminds me of botw!
I agree with this. I had to look up a guide to figure out the first dungeon. The combat and lore of BotW I really like, but I hate everything else which ruins it for me.
The new dungeons do suck ass, the shrines are a creative way to get heart peices. When they make another open world zelda, we will see how much people like it if dungeons are not done way.better.
hey , when people say, hard time make great people, its true good time make weak people. thats how game nowaday easy easy and easy, cause kids are more get hand holding nowaday, ALL THING MUST BE EASY
@@Themacattack1209 you called it cringe cause you dont understand it, or maybe not align with my view, and then ? cringe ? u kid just use that word just to insult ur knowledge not mine, go bite the dust sucker
They have been chasing the casual market since the wild success of Wii Sports. With Skyward Sword Nintendo tried to teach casuals how to play Zelda by tutorializing dungeons in the overworld and over tutorialized. With BotW They removed progressive complexity so that ever challrnge was its own tutorial.
1:01 remember ER legecay dungeons arwe way different from traditional 3d Zelda dungeons. ER ones are closer to the first 2D Zelda (yep, Zelda 1 and Zeda II). Despite that, I agree terminals shouldn't be marked on dungenos, it damage exploration a lot. At least in TOTK you can turn them off , I don't recall in botw
The worst part is that we're the minority. The series has never been anywhere near as wildly successful as it is now. There is such a thing as a franchise being too popular for its own good, it happened to Pokemon and Animal Crossing too. RIP classic Zelda 1986 - 2013
7:18 gee, a ship called the "Air temple" looks like a temple. God forbid it looks like a ship... even though "ship" is no where in its name. It's probably not even a ship, it's most likely a mobile temple, using natural winds to keep it hidden by keeping it constantly moving. What you said about the Devine Beast is absolutely true though and I hate them with a freaking passion. Not to mention the lack of bosses in the game. The champions Ballad has one unique boss and that's the monk dude you fight to get Vah Epona (my head Canon name for the master cycle) the rest are just the blight ganons... again.
My original thoughts on TotK dungeons is sure they were much better than BotW but still way below the standards for all other 3d Zelda games. And yeah the soundtracks are just sad compared to other Zelda games. Wind Waker in my opinion has the best soundtrack of any video game ever made! Is it really that hard to change up the music for at the minimum each town, dungeon, and special area?
BotW was the first Zelda game that I just wanted to finish and never pick up again. TotK is the first Zelda game that I saw on the shelf.. And kept walking.
Is the same to me. I played It for 160 hours and left it never wanting to play It again. I have no intentions in playing TOTK. Meanwhile, I have replayed MM, OoT, Links Awakening and the Oracle games.
it was pointed out to me that there is a reason that zelda games have had a more niche audience when compared to Mario. Short answer is people are stupid, and dungeons are hard. I couldn't beat Majora's mask as a child because of the difficulty. With the newer games, they are trying to bring in a larger audience. And it seems to be working. It just ruins it for the origional fans that got into it mostly because of the dungeons.
I love skyward even the world was better then these new Zelda’s there ass totk and botw probably can share All the same map format like you posted it’s super basic and someone said shrines are a mess because I can use the system well I feel like I can cheat the shrine by a build or a exploit while past Zelda titles there was one intended way of doing it and you really can’t get around it
1000% agree. Nintendo shot for the stars, and only made it about half way through the ozone layer and then tumbled back down in a giant pile of horseshit. The temples in both open world Zelda games were such a let down. Breath of the Wild was bad and it really took away the nostalgia of all the previous Zelda games. What makes a great Zelda game? The temples, the puzzles, the critical thinking elements...it's like they dumbed it all down, which is just unacceptable! I understand putting forth effort into creating and managing the open world, but when you are missing key Zelda game components, it falls short. From personal experience, in Tears of the Kingdom, the first temple I encountered was the Fire Temple (I'm a sucker for the Gorons) and I expected great things, I was excited. Then, I was dragged down to a chasm, forced to run around and find lightroots just for the simple gift of SIGHT in the darkness and when I finally did stumble upon the temple, I seriously thought it was just a long and intricate puzzle to get INTO the temple...nope. Disappointment was all I got when I finally banged on all five of those stupid gongs and the door unveiled the boss. I feel your frustration, it is just disheartening when you call back to other Zelda games. Hopefully, whatever Zelda game comes out next, Nintendo will listen to their fans. Also, rest in peace for you beautiful doggo.
Botw and Totk are my fave Zelda games of all time, but i miss old style linear dungeons with proper puzzles. Keep shrines sandboxes, and have dungeons being proper dungeons.
i will never play a zelda game again. each game has gotten successively worse since windwaker and now its turned into a bad assassin's creed clone. why does Nintendo exist anymore, please go away!
@@jasonknowing Yeah, it is a great game, but you can see laziness begin in the form of repetitive tasks like killing those stupid bugs and various other things.
I'm not a Zelda fan or a dungeon crawling fan, but I can understand the feeling since I play a lot of RPGs n they have some type of dungeons, going through similar challenges feels boring af, I know that low budget games do it a lot, I'm actually playing Lost Dimension on Steam n it show it low budget expectation vs reality design
it is too soon to really judge the new dungeon design because it was only 2 entries that had this formula. i have not even touched the dungeons in tears yet but i will say the divine beasts had some original concepts but very poor execution despite deriving ideas going back to eagle's tower from link's awakening. this might be a hot take but only a few 3d dungeons were good. most were mediocre but generally underwhelming. the forest, water, snowhead and great bay temple come to mind. then there is the wind temple, lakebed, temple of time, sand ship and the sky keep. others like snowpeak forest and hyrule castle were decent but the latter was underwhelming for end game. for the divine beasts, vah naboris was good and the final trials were not bad either. hyrule castle was also a good size for its structural layout.
The divine beasts weren't good enough to bring back a second time. 2 entries with this system is far too many. They failed to iterate on the gameplay of this system in any interesting way in TotK. It's time to retire it
@@athorem what i would do is go back to a standard dungeon structure where they are navigable labyrinths but have different layouts. not all need to require the item to complete it and some could have optional items but none should have mandatory items that are not relevant for the dungeons they are found in. divine beasts could work if they were part of a dungeon such as a dungeon within a dungeon but not in the way botw designed them. they lacked combat based challenges (although both games have poor enemy design (tears having overpowered resources and poor enemy AI) and botw's variety is the worst in the series when excluding upgraded and elemental variants)and the navigation does not seem intuitive. hyrule castle was closer to a standard dungeon but it lacked locks and keys and was too open where you could paraglide your way to the sanctum. i am for open world zelda but it needs boundaries an variety.
@@radicalizedonline7109 From a story and lore perspective, I don't see how you can be upset with it. You are literally entering the sacred realm and collecting the Triforce, making SS Link the only Link to ever have a perfect balance of Power,Wisdom and Courage. You even see the sacred realm turn golden as Link spirit leaves the sacred realm right after collecting all 3 pieces of the triforce. That would be a reference to ALTTP golden realm.
@@nworder4life - Story / lore isn’t that important to me, and I didn’t find it to be particularly strong in that department. The game overall was just too repetitive, too objective-driven, and too gimmicky, especially compared to the previous entry TP. I remember fighting that Demise monster for the 3rd time and thinking “I already did this, it’s filler, this isn’t fun.” Then having to redouble the entire map to do mandatory fetch quests was lame and unenjoyable. The game was full of stuff like that. Almost every Zelda game I enjoy more on replay, but SS is the only one I just wanted it to be over. BOTW I haven’t even bothered replaying since it’s barely even a game.
They don't suck, but ok Are some of them underwhelming, sure. I thought the dungeons in tears were a huge step forward, although water temple is too short.
y’all are just a bunch of haters lmao, totk and botw allows you to solve puzzles in whatever way you want giving you a sense of free will and allowing your experience to be different from any other player. you just want to be told what to do and in what order
While that is definitely a strength of the botw and TotK dungeons, it still leads to a weakened PUZZLE/dungeon experience. The dungeons of other games are expertly crafted to teach you things to use in different parts of it and they have fantastic design which is what the modern dungeons miss. If you play a traditional Zelda game you’ll feel satisfied for how you overcame the increasingly difficult puzzles of the dungeon, paced consistently well. It’s a more streamline approach that works well for a puzzle section format. The freedom of modern dungeons is cool, but it leads to a more diluted dungeon experience.
I couldn't even finish the video. I agree with ya, it's a different experience! Like he was comparing the music, but it didn't show the music of Tears of the Kingdom for comparison! I do like linear gameplay, but not every Zelda has to be the same, I do like the dungeons of old, but from what I played of Breath of the Wild, I very much enjoyed it!
@@starlalilymoon i dont necessarily disagree with your point on the music, there are some musical elements that are well done in botw/totk dungeons (morse code for sos in divine beasts, lead up to the wind temple being musically interesting) (though i think generally music and audible ambience from older games is better, its not a huge point tbh) but open ended dungeons, while cool make for a lesser dungeon experience imo in each puzzle being less satisfying or interesting and the dungeon as a whole. and if you had just used a guide every time, i dont think youre at exact liberty to discuss which ones are better and make for a better puzzle/dungeon experience if you never had the pleasure of enjoying the design and solving it yourself
@octoinlove888 I still have enjoyment in doing dungeons with a guide. My opinion is just as valid as ones that don't use a guide. I mainly used a guide to make sure I got all the chests or items. There are also times I don't use a guide. I memorized ocarina of time dungeons for example without a guide after the first time. There's still plenty of enjoyment and because of doing the dungeon puzzles, I do drawings of my own dungeon maps.
The reason for these new generic and boring dungeos is because of the huge influx of female and black "gamers" the last years, so they had to make it easy enough for them.
@@starlalilymoon Thanks, that's a positive these days, also when you say "older games of the series" i guess you mean twillight princess and skyward sword.
So, the first Legend of Zelda is not a Zelda game? It was pretty open world mate at least for an NES game. Breath of the Wild was inspired by that very first game xD
You can not like them, but you're objectively wrong for saying they're "badly designed" these aren't meant to be the same dungeons of old, they're meant to be a grander puzzle, nothing that takes forever to get through but also not something forgettable. I love both takes on Zelda dungeons but to call the newer ones bad is just not true and sounds more like butthurt from being stuck.
@@zurkke They actually do though. You're actively having to move the dungeon while you explore it, what's going on in the water temple in oot? Ooo that's a real interesting temple, can't wait to do nothing in most of the rooms.
You can literally see the entire dungeon from the moment you step foot on it, how is it any clever at all? How can you say that is even CLOSE as good as a vertical, layered dungeon where you need to control the water levels in a way that helps you gather all the keys until the final section? And the fact that you say you do "nothing" in most of the rooms shows that you've probably never cleared it anyway. @@bayardkyyako7427
I agree with you, I like both new and old dungeons/shrines! The weird part is the guy who's complaining tried to say the music was bad for Tears of the Kingdom for it's dungeon, but didn't show the music!
Wow as a person who is brand new to Zelda I didn't know that dungeons were such an integral part. I actually love the open world hero aspect and Everytime I need to leave the beautiful sunny radiant grassland to spend hours in a depressing dungeon I want to rip my hair out 😡.
Play the first Zelda game. The concept is one big open world with several smaller uniquely themed levels or dungeons, each with a boss and special items. The dungeons themselves are like puzzles. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it, but that’s what made the series popular.
You nailed my exact feelings on this! I love that you brought up the aesthetic of the Tears dungeons, something is just off about them. Dungeons on the N64 feel more alive and lived in then the dungeons in Tears, there's no excuse for that.
Also in GCN and Wii. Actually i think dungeons peaked in Twilight Princess, SS have the best dungeon but TP
Exactly. The dungeons and Temples in the older games - especially Ocarina and Twilight - feel like real places that already existed as their own entity that then BECAME dungeons; that you're there after the fact and on a mission with purpose, in a real location. The Wild games are just bigger shrines that clearly only exist to be shrines: a puzzle with no purpose. There's no sense of legend or epic feel; you don't feel like you're trespassing somewhere sacred or abandoned or haunted, but instead feel like... just another Shrine. In essence, they feel like a video game, and that breaks my immersion. At almost no time in the Wild games do they NOT feel like a video game, and the copy pasted enemies don't help that.
@@arturocastroverde3349I think the dungeon aesthetics were better in tp but the design in ss is better
@@hanburgundy4317 Fax bro
An open world Zelda game that _actually has_ traditional items like the hookshot, boomerang, etc. would be AMAZING. It wouldn't even be that hard to give each dungeon an exclusive item, but you can collect them in any order and each item can improve your ability to explore.
As an example... Imagine if instead of getting all the Shiekah Slate runes on the great plateau, instead you have to travel to the Divine Beasts to get them. That's kinda how it would work. You don't _need_ the runes to properly explore the world, but you can't do specific objectives without them. It would keep the open-world aspects of letting the player choose their own path, because they can decide for themselves what item they need first (it would also incentivize actually _doing_ the dungeons outside of just the story).
When people say it wouldn't be possible to have traditional dungeons in an open-world, I don't understand what they are talking about. It would be fairly straightforward honestly.
The are a lot of issues with the BotW/TotK dungeons but I think losing new items gained like a boomerang or hookshot etc really hurts progression and limits the unique puzzles that are possible...
it is more to do with how the puzzles are designed. good puzzles that don't need items can still work but the problem lies more with the resources given to you that let you cheese the puzzles. for example, re-call can allow for several unintended solutions when combined with ultra hand. even in previous entries, the hover boots, roc's cape, beetle, bomb arrows, and cane of somaria act as double edged swords. they can allow for creative obstacles but also can bypass them too easily. it really comes down to how the items are designed. synergy is very important for good item design instead of simply hitting a switch with the bow or hammer.
Every “dungeon” is just a factory rented out to a different sage lmao
literally been trying to convince my gf to play the older zelda games bc she doesn't believe me when I say switch zelda dungeons are mid compared to the OGs
They're not even mid lol The Wild games don't match up to any of the older games.
@@hanburgundy4317 they stepped it up a little in totk but the switch games still have nothing on the N64-Wii era of zelda games, especially in terms of dungeon design
@@gizzardgizzard3583I though A Link to the Past had some good dungeons too.
I agree, something I REALLY miss is the temple only enemies, subosses AND KEY ITEMS ;( I hated that we had the golems in the wind temple it felt so random and out of place, at least the gerudo dungeon had gibdos.
They arent even a threat. No menacing freeze screams at all. Just lame arrow spam target practice.
I know I'm responding to an 8 month post but the gibdos in TotK were such massive disappointments. Why does Nintendo always disappoint with the modern Zelda games? I saw the gibdos in the trailers and I were anticipated, only to learn that they're lame enemies who can be easily killed with elemental attacks... No screaming or freezing powers either. They do not even deal decent damage. The most boring type of gibdos/redeads in 3D Zelda games.
I also completely agree with the videos.
@@asurawrath7801So true 😔.
@@asurawrath7801It's ok, from my experience most TH-cam commenters don't care about you responding to old posts unless you're disagreeing with or correcting them. Unlike on say Reddit, where people get mad at you for replying to a 2 month old comment/reply.
I was expecting the castle in botw to be a great classic dungeon. But it was so disappointing...
If they're not going to do traditional dungeons anymore then they have to replace it with something better. And they very much did not do that. Instead they doubled down on the Divine Beast system that boils down to 'reach the 4 terminals'. You could give BotW a pass for experimenting, but this system wasn't worth bringing back in TotK.
And there is absolutely ZERO reason to not have traditional dungeons. I know they want to have a completely open world…but Skyrim can do it just fine. Just imagine what the Zelda team could do with a completely open world format combined with traditional dungeons. It would be a masterpiece.
@@Tyler_Owen23Exactly! They could've been printing money if they did that. You know bare minimum Nintendo, they love to cut corners and recycle content. Which is why we waited 6 years for TOTK just to get $70 BOTW DLC.
@@ACW-dn9wbWell, I agree with y'all but Nintendo already is "printing money" with The Legend of Zelda's open world games.
@@chocov1233 True, bit it wont last forever if they dont realize they cant keep doing the same things without people noticing. TOTK had amazing sales at thr start, but quickly playeaued once people had enough time with it, realized how much was copy-pasted from last game and how bad/retcon-filled the new story and lore was. Then the sales, the hype, and the talk of the game died down in less than a year.
"Collection of shrines" has been my favorite description for almost as long as the game's been out. There's little in the way of inter-dependency across different parts of the dungeon, stuff like pushing a block down a hole to make the room below solvable, or those colored pegs from the top-down games.
Progression is important because it lets the game reward the player's achievement with more dungeon. If the player has access to the whole dungeon right away, then all it can do is pat the player on the back "3 more things left."
A weakness you don't mention, there isn't really much OTHER than puzzles. Where are the obstacle courses of traps? Platforming? Cagefights?
Obtaining a new item is not necessary for a good dungeon, but it's effect on dungeon design is extremely beneficial. I guess the sages powers were supposed to be the "item," but the dungeon design didn't use that nearly as much.
You mention the exposed gears in the Wind Temple being out of place. I find in the majority of Zelda dungeons you have to suspend your disbelief for their "video game level" design. Not all, but most.
The Fire Temple was one of two dungeons where I couldn't use the map as a crutch, where I had to rely on Link's eyeballs and my mental picture of the place, as it should be. The other, of course, being the "Courage to Fall" shrine.
What I also don't like is that the game gives you too many options to just...skip dungeons. The water dungeon in totk is especially guilty of this, if you have a decent flying machine you can reach all the switches fairly easy. It requires little to no thinking to solve. Meanwhile, in older dungeons if you were stuck, you were stuck and had to figure it out.
Sad that dungeons from the GAMEBOY games absolutely mog TOTK's dungeons despite sharing a director.
The amount of thinking required to solve the shrine puzzles is nearly zero and puzzle variation is also lacking. People will say Tears gives me the freedom to approach and solve a puzzle in a unique way, but who wants or needs to solve a puzzle "creatively" that a 5 year old could figure out
You would think that more tools equals harder puzzles, but sadly the reverse is the case
yeah way too easy & hand holdy they pretty much put the solution in your face (and there can be 3+ solutions)
I knew it wouldn’t match up to elden ring, but I was hoping for an upgrade to breath of the wild, and i dont think we even got that in a level design sense, beyond what you can build in that area. Everything feels nicer to travel through, but you’re traveling through the same Everything over and over. Everything is so open that every Link’s adventure could be so different because of the open ended question the game asks of you. That’s appealing, every adventure is different, but it’s not specific enough to have any kick to it. Because we all Know that we can build a spring and shoot ourselves wherever we want in the dungeon and after getting from point A to point B with uninspired enemies in between each, four or five times, Four Times Over, and then a fun spectacle boss or annoying challenge boss.
I would say the new formula for Zelda is like asking an open ended question from the developer’s perspective, so we can only give open-ended answers. It’s not a detailed enough question for the answer to satisfy us. Shrine keys but no dungeon keys, locked doors that we can phase through, all of these seemingly nitpicking things add up. There are too many consequences for the series going forward that make me a bit turned off because as far as I can see the devs aren’t interested in making things more dialed down and specific. This may sound stupid, but I know all the maps in all the dark souls games because I had to survive through them and map it in my head. I can’t map breath of the wild/ tears of the kingdom dungeons(except hyrule castle itself) despite them being smaller than the entirety of souls levels because they are so simple and straightforward that I can’t get lost. Compare this to older zelda dungeons, where if you dont have a map, you probably wont remember where to go next because of the complex layouts, and if you dont have a compass, you dont have what you need from a dungeon yet, so you cant fight the boss with the big key after enjoying a fully crafted dungeon from the devs. And we were inspired by the answers they allowed us to give, because they asked specific enough questions of us. I can hope I forget the dungeons and enjoy them again sometime soon at least, because I do love the game. It’s because I love it that I see where it falls short, I think.
One thing that also kind of kills Tears in particular for me is the sages. I know Link in 3D is typically never truly alone in these games, but as a player, you effectively are.
If the Lightning Temple was meant to be creepy, on top of failing that through aesthetics, progression, tension, and music, having Riju (or the ghosts) by your side at all times kills one other thing that made the Shadow Temple creepy. There's never a sense of isolation that aids in making Zelda temples very atmospheric. You always have another NPC there by your side helping you.
Even if you put aside the lack of key items or a thematic identity, I think you make a great point about non-linearity. The freedom that provides comes at the cost of the satisfying direction of classic dungeon design. I personally really enjoy the feeling of seeing the hand of the creator orchestrating a journey through a dungeon that builds in complexity until a powerful conclusion. I don't get that feeling from BotW or TotK. I suppose some players like the feeling of how you can solve a lot of the new Zelda puzzles in "their own way", but to me that comes at the cost of a well-paced and directed experience and I find that much more valuable.
And on the topic of the identity, the Wind Temple in TotK is such a good example. In my limited time with that game, the highlight by far was getting to the Wind Temple. It was a genuinely exciting lead-up and spectacle with high stakes as you climbed higher and higher. Normally, that would be when the dungeon itself would begin, but instead my enjoyment deflated completely when the ark itself was a disconnected set of puzzles. The boss was solid enough, but it didn't save the experience. In my opinion, the lack of key items *really* hurts these "dungeons". Hell, if they really don't want anything to affect progress in the main game, at least introduce something specific to the dungeon that will give it some sense of forward momentum!
I got so bored playing BotW, I never finished it, and I didn't get TotK. It's a shame, because I love Zelda, and the director has said that it's all going to be more open world like those two going forward (and that he doesn't get why anyone likes the older games, apart from nostalgia!?!).
You can have open world and good dungeons. Sequence breaking is a thing. You can do both.
I agree. The TotK dungeons are very much a step up from BotWs, even if just visually, but still not on the level of TP or SS.
Honestly I think the Wind Temple is really the only ToTK dungeon that can stand up with games like TP, OoT, WW, and SS.
@@megaman37456 How tho? There are no unique enemy types, easy puzzles, and it lasts like 20 minutes. The disappointment I felt after beating it was what made me drop the game
@@nicke5801 It was more so the visual design for me than the puzzles. It felt like an early game dungeon, similar to TP's Forest Temple.
Great video, agree so much with your points here. The dungeons were one of the reasons why i fell in love with the Zelda series.
What baffles me is that they have made an open-world zelda game with traditional dungeons. A Link Between Worlds. sure, it's not as open world as BOTW/TOTK but you could do those dungeons in any order.
One of the main reasons why I played Zelda games in the first place was because of the dungeons. And now they’re gone. This series is seriously starting to lose my interest since Botw.
For real. It really seems like the series is dead, and the devs don't care - they'd rather cater to the new fans that love copy and paste easy shrines.
I 100% agree with this. I played ToTK and I don't think I will play it again in the future. It's just not Zelda.
It’s Zelda, you just don’t like it, there’s a difference
@@nellcrud8082it’s his opinion. I think it’s a good game, however my problem is the scale. Developers need to stop making games too big. The map is just far too big for me to feel like I’m making any progress. I understand that you can say “why don’t you go fight Gannon now?” And that just adds to my problems with botw and totk. I really don’t like that I can beat a $70 game the second I get freedom. As long as I’m good enough right. I was really hoping they wouldn’t make it like this in totk but here we are
nah it doesn't feel like a Zelda adventure@@nellcrud8082
Yeah after I beat it I’ll never return to that or BoTW again
Sorry for your loss. Auto looks like a great pupper. Thanks for a great video.
Thank you, he was
@@pressaTDSorry for your loss, I recently lost my dog of 10 years. So I know the pain. I hope it’s gotten easier in the few months since this videos release.
@@ethanjoseph1057 Thank you, it has a bit. Still miss him a lot. Sorry to hear about your dog. Hopefully it gets easier for you as well.
I was pretty forgiving of BOTW when it came to the dungeons because of all the cool and interesting changes they made to the formula. Especially when it comes to exploration. Now that TOTK has come and gone and I've had time to reflect, compare, and contrast I'm far less forgiving on just how terrible all of the dungeons were in both BOTW and TOTK. Seriously out of every Zelda title I would honestly rank BOTW and Tears of the Kingdom's dungeons as some of if not the worst in the entire series. Quality dungeons and the stories leading up to them are the biggest thing that make a Zelda game stand out compared to their counterparts. Both BOTW and TOTK severely underwhelm on what should be the most important element that makes a Zelda game stand out.
I will say definitely that I never want to see another type of go anywhere and activate X number of nodes to enter the final boss room in a Zelda game ever again.
The fact they left them out on purpose is baffling. BotW and TotK mixed with traditional dungeons would be the chefs kiss! It would literally be this generations OoT.
i hate that mainstream gaming outlets lick these games boots without ever acknowledging how shitty the dungeons are, and how shitty the story is, all in the name of stupid open world
This is my exact issue with the series for years. My friend got BoTW and ToTK and loves them. He has never played the N64, GC, Wii, or any of the handheld versions. This was his introduction to the series and he doesn't understand my frustration. Without proper dungeons this doesn't feel like a zelda game. Sure you have the setting and story but it feels almost hollow. I love being lead through a heroes tale. They did an amazing job with the open world aspect. Breathing life into the people and the environment itself. But failed in one of the biggest aspects of a zelda game. Until Nintendo makes dungeons better I'm taking a back seat on LoZ games which hurts since they make up 2 of my top 5 games.
TLDR at the bottom...
This could be a very unpopular opinion, but I believe it's part of the reason they didn't fix the dungeons in TOTK....
The team focused on the absolute complete waste of time and space called The Depths.
Everything is the same color pallette, same trees, same rocks, same everything (Minus the Fire Temple location, it felt the most like a proper Zelda dungeon).
The Depths are just not fun to explore. Pitch black, mindless zoanite mining, and Reversed Imaged Shrines.
The first time or two I dropped down a chasm was cool, but once I realized eveything looks and feels exactly the same, I lost interest.
To me, its just useless padding to obtaining a full energy belt and it's a chore hunting down zoanite; which is needed if you really wanna go nuts with creating cool gadgets (ya know, one of the main new features)
Why would Nintendo make you mine for resources needed in order to build devices? Why not just an item limiter to the number of shit you can add on screen at one time? Want to build a hovercraft? Tough shit, you're out out resources. Better go drop down a big hole, wander around in the dark, find some zoanite, then fast travel back to where you wanted to build your hovercraft..... the whole process is pointless.
TLDR; Sky Islands and overworld are great, The Depths are shit, time could have been spent making proper dungeons.
Tbh I feel like botw was a chore to play too because I hate shrines and climbing the towers. Feels even worse in totk though because I’ve already explored the world in botw. Went back to botw after totk and I actually think the divine beasts were better than the totk dungeons. I don’t like that both of them are non linear, but I feel like the divine beasts were more complex and interesting in design.
I was so amazed when I discovered the depths, but when I figured out that there's nothing to do down there, I was so dissapointed
If they scraped the depths and focused on changing the overworld, making better dungeons and more sky islands, Tears of the Kingdom would be really goated
@juannaym8488
For real - I absolutely hate the Depths. They're ugly, bland, and boring, and utterly repetitive. I was amazed and excited when I first found them - then after exploring for two hours I never wanted to return. TOTK was the biggest letdown since BOTW. Sadly, it seems the Zelda series - like everything else I grew up loving - has been unrecognizably changed for the worse.
This is my top 10 all time: 🛡️ ⚔️
#10 Lightning Temple(TOTK)
#9 Vah Ruta(BOTW)
#8 Goron Mines(TP)
#7 Stone Tower(MM)
#6 Spirit Temple(OoT)
#5 Ancient Cistern(SS)
#4 Snowpeak Ruins(TP)
#3 Sandship(SS)
#2 Arbiter’s Grounds(TP)
#1 Forest Temple(OoT)
arbiter's grounds was killer with the spinner
forest temple music was awesome
I'd describe nintendo's open world LoZ games as, 'what if you smashed gmod minecraft and skyrim together'.
Expansive looking but everything from the terrain to the enemies to the collectables are copy & pasted to oblivion, the gameplay may be reactionary but never gets more challenging than maintenance grinding because everything was designed to be simultaneously accessible, the puzzles may as well be nonexistent as they're either breaking an obstacle or moving one into a useful spot, and the items are effectively creator tools for being exploitable without being interesting to use in and of themselves.
The Titans are not a Problem.
My Problems are these generic boring shrines left and right in Breath of the Wild.
two biggest things i agree on:
1.Underwhelming dungeon design. i was pumped to SEE the dungeons in TOTK, but by the end of each, realized that they were just divine beasts with skins.
2. Lack of progression items. One of the best parts of older titles was finding things in the overworld that would stump you after exhausting all current options, and then reaching the next dungeon and getting an item that you immediately realize is crucial to your earlier dilemma. it made the world feel more cohesive, and gave extra emphasis to the whole "chosen one" aspect by giving exclusive rewards for things only the player has access to.
I think these things are crucial to the spirit of the franchise, and i don't think an open world is an excuse to lose them or a sufficient replacement for them.
Share this video to save the next Zelda. lol.
I'm gonna give my hot take.
Fuse is bad.
It is the one power that gets used for 95% of the puzzles, and they all end up boiling down to using the items they leave in the room without any real thought.
Oh, a sandpit. I wonder if I need to build a bridge with the 3 pieces of wood they have in the room.
Oh, a gear that's just too short to move the second gear. I wonder if I need to use the piece of wood they left me.
Oh, a pool of lava, I wonder if I need to use the hydrant.
It's not a creative puzzle game, it's putting a square peg in a square hole. They do very little interesting with the concept.
And really, how often do you get to mix your powers? BOTW had more limited powers in a sense, but they made way better puzzles.
Not to say that BOTW had a lot of great ones, but they were better than TOLK.
Both games suffer from a pretty unfortunate problem of having a couple of tricks.
Once you know those tricks, you've solved every puzzle at a glance.
So you get a great first few hours, then it kinda feels like going through the motions.
Your point about a lack of progression in BOTW & TOTK's dungeons hits the nail on the head for me. And I didn't even realize that was what I disliked about them before this video.
I think there is far too much emphasis on not being "railroaded" in games now adays. There's a difference between "I'm going to hold your hand and force you though everything so you can't discover anything about the game on your own." (Skyward Sword) and "Let me gently guide you through the story I want to tell. You're going to go where I want you to but you won't realize it until we're long done." (I don't have an example but you get it.)
Are you being railroaded or is the game guiding you through a story?
Your example of the second thing is literally every classic style Zelda game except Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks.
I loved Skyward Sword and don't understand how so many people hated it - it's one of the best feelings of adventure, and the story spurs you onward. The puzzles were unique and made great use of the motion controls - everything did. Man, the Wild games are a massive letdown.
@@hanburgundy4317 Absolutely valid, I just never got past having to fight the Imprisoned three times and got frustrated with the controls too much. I also haven't tried it since, like, 2013 so maybe I could change my mind.
Totk made me feel so let down. It wasn’t worth the wait.
Out of all the Dungeon types, I think the Water and Forest Dungeon types were done the Dirtiest.
The water one is kinda understandable, the OoT and MM water temple dungeons were so infamous that they're considered major examples to everything wrong with water levels in general. And the BotW and TotK dungeons feel like they tried their best to distance themselves from that. Though the way the did it, kinda wound up distancing themselves from water-based mechanics so much that they don't really actually feel like water mechanics as much as they do regular mechanics with a "water" aesthetic.
And honestly? I don't think we've actually had a proper Forest or Jungle Dungeon since Twilight Princess. Skyward sword just had a Regular Crypt/Ruins area for their forest region.
i miss forest themed dungeons in zelda so much
I think OoT water temple/great bay have a reputation for being hard but i don't think they should be considered what not to do. Imo they're great dungeons
Being hard does NOT equal being "wrong". There's nothing wrong with OoT/MM's water temples. Especially OoT just suffers with the tedious task of opening the menu each time to switch boots. Unforgiving? Now that they are.
The water temple in OOT is my favorite
I'm less concerned with whether or not a dungeon in botw/totk feels like a Zelda dungeon and more concerned with whether or not those dungeons feel good. To me, what matters most is that the dungeons are interesting challenges with satisfying progression, and whether or not that makes it feel like Zelda isn't the thing I'm concerned with.
When I was playing the wind temple in totk, I initially ran into a puzzle with a solution that was so simple, yet I did it incorrectly and had assumed that I needed to explore to find the solution. I was incredibly disappointed when I found out that the solution was just to use Ultrahand to attack an item to a cog so I could turn it, because I felt like I should have been able to turn the cog without needing to attach something to it first, and when I couldn't do that, I ended up overestimating the challenge of the dungeon.
All the dungeons ended up boring me for the most part because of this, but ultimately I wasn't thinking "This doesn't feel like Zelda". Instead I was thinking "This is boring"
I hate open world Zelda dungeons and shrines. Hated the last two games… lazy trash.
Instead of having puzzles in shrines, the old Zelda games integrated them into their worlds and dungeons. Also nothing worse than completing a side quest & being rewarded a shrine…
Themes, music, uniqueness… all missing in the last two games.
MM, OOT, WW, TP, SS, all better Zelda games than the last two.
Tbh even BOTW is better than breath of the wild
ITS ON EVERYTHING NOT JUST ZELDA, POKEMON GETTING EASIER , MONSTER HUNTER GET EASIER, MARIO GET EASIER, STREETFIGHTER GET EASIER AND SO MANY MORE, gaming nowaday has no more challenge, all just BIG SALE, BUG and A MASSIVE GUIDE TEXT ON EVERYTHING FROM DIALOG TO SIMPLY FULL GAME DIRECTION
Nintendo especially is making games more accessible and user friendly because they want everyone, including kids and beginners to be able to play, enjoy, and beat their games. That’s why sometimes side content is crazy difficult, but it’s all about accessibility because believe it or not, Nintendo’s main audience includes families, kids, and new players. Not to mention that games back in the day seemed more difficult to most of us because we were younger and more experienced, but now they’re much easier. They also were intentionally stupid difficult to extend the life of the games due to hardware limitations. Many games I struggled with as a kid are much easier now as an adult. I understand some people like challenges, and that’s why I would say they should incorporate difficulty settings into more games so that veteran players can get the challenge they want. At the end of the day, they’re going to cater towards their larger audience and that’s just not older and experienced players for the most part.
Eh...mario was always easy
The “lack of meaningful progression” is exactly why I just cannot get into BotW or TotK
I agree with this 100%. Dungeons are an integral part of what makes Zelda and diminishing their value diminishes the game. Nintendo last got dungeons right in A Link Between Worlds, and should make it a big focus in the upcoming Echoes of Wisdom, which has a huge potential to be a better Zelda game than Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.
I have put more hours in BOTW than in other zelda game, did all the shrines. I dont remember anything about the dungeons but the elephant trunk mechanic. I dont remember any shrine at all, but the one where you had to tilt the switch, which sucked (so... I remembered it for the wrong reasons).
Modern Zelda looks & feels too 'cartoony' & not a dangerous adventure like TP, oot, majora's mask & they need to bring back harder longer dungeons, a real soundtrack & harder difficulty. Zelda was always the more mature franchise, while Mario was for kids
Ideally, Nintendo would create a second team to focus on linear Zelda games while the first team continues to work on open world Zelda games. The development cycle of Zelda games has been getting too long anyway (gone is the 1 year cycle of Majoras Mask). This would solve this problem while also satisfying both sides of the fanbase. Nintendo would be printing money.
Majora's was the exception, not the rule. And that only had a 1 year development cycle because they shamelessly recycled assets around every corner and padded the game like no one's business. I love Majora's Mask, but it was far from the most fleshed out game in the series. And no, they wouldn't be printing money. The open world games sell astronomically better. Why waste resources developing a game that will never sell as well?
They'd still be making money though...and Nintendo literally has more money than they know what to do with. @@jarynn8156
I agree with this, but I don't think I'd like the dungeons in the game without a linear structure to the game itself. Link Between Worlds had dungeons, but because you could do them in any order they were all as easy and simple as the first dungeon. Renting the item beforehand also ruined a lot of the appeal of them for me since every dungeon not only is there no struggle through the dungeon before you get the item, but all your other items are not required.
If they bring back dungeons in this new open air style it'll probably just be like Hyrule Castle in BOTW, just another place you can explore with your _freedom._
I honestly could get over the simplicity of the design if they put a better and harder mix of enemies in the Temples. I think a combat challenge in each using lynels and others for key drops could have helped, like minibosses. Also I'm surprised they didnt make the rewards more meaningful from the dungeons. For instance walls only Yunobo can break, the water splash, the gust, and the lightning arrow all could have unlocked areas like extra dungeons in different areas of the world than their original ones. We just want some linear areas that feel unique, I dont understand why they hate the idea so much. They could still add another four or so actual dungeons as dlc still for endgame but it looks like low odds for that happening at this point.
I stand by the idea BOTW killed the Zelda series. It would have been an awesome game if it simply weren't Zelda. Instead, now the expectation is these giant worlds with copy paste puzzles because " look how much stuff there is" even if its absolutely soulless
Thank you! Finally, someone agrees with me about the lack of good dungeon design in BotW and TotK. The dungeons should be linear! The modern style makes them so boring and uninspired. Bring back small keys and interconnected layouts. Challenge rooms and mini bosses.
The new dungeons are just copy and paste switches. Nintendo did the most lazy surface level visual improvements for TotK dungeons.
"The open world nature makes it imposible to have traditional dungeons" is the stupidest excuse I've ever heard.
Skyrim came out over a decade ago, and it managed to, somehow, have more interesting dungeons. And you know things are effed up when Skyrim dungeons seem good in comparison.
Ir randomizers have taught us something, is that linearity and openworldness aren't diametrically opposed. And that's the core aspect metroidvania have embraced ever since their origin: The Expanding Open World.
The only thing metroidvanias lack is the order in which parts of the world would open, and that's where randomizers came in. Of we apply that same "pick your path" formula to a new game, we could have a Zelda game that has the whole map open, but combat and mobility are expanded as mid-way & completion rewards for the dungeons scattered on it. Similar on how getting Revali's gale trivialized a lot of the puzzles in the rest of divine beasts accidentally; but make that an intended path choice.
You have worded my own thoughts so well. I *wish* the dungeons were more linear seamlessly meshed with the open world instead of being what seems to be one big room completely instances away from the open world which seems to be a waste....
One more thing about the open world discussion: Literally the VERY FIRST Zelda game was already open world, at least kind of. Even 30 years ago we already had a big world to explore and we could theoretically do the dungeons in any order we want, well apart for some of the key items you get in them. Why is it now suddenly not possible to do something like this anymore?
I do love that Zelda has gone open world but sadly the Dungeons are barely that. Dungeons. I guess Nintendo feels cause they worked so much on the open world and added the sky islands in the sequel (Which probably shows how much more lazy they are seeing they still neglected to make Dungeons good again) they believe "Oh fans will care more about exploring the world and doing the quests so they won't care about the Dungeons anymore nor care much that the story is not as strong as it was in other games" then when Tears of the Kingdom came out "Huh. Looks like people complained about Dungeons. Lets add some more stuff to the Shri...I mean Dungeons. They won't notice as they will like all the new stuff added to the world and the Sky Islands" Yeah Nintendo clearly has gotten lazy as it does show in some of the newer games and the fact that we have been getting more and more remasters of games or games that were from the Wii U coming to the Switch. Well they have not done the latter as much. I mean these are 2 great Zelda Games but they should actually put effort in Dungeons again as the Shrines and Beasts are kinda boring to do. Sure some of them make you think but not as long as the older games did. Hell I remember first doing Snow Peak (Twilight Princess was the first Zelda game I played and was what got me into Zelda) I remember being stuck for a few days cause I did not know where to go or if I was missing a Key. Even Hyrule Castle was confusing since there were doors that can't seem to be open at all and that Court Yard that is not even important to reaching the final boss. I mean yes it was annoying at the time but it still shows that they put effort in their Dungeons back then. With how Nintendo is lately with being lazy and trying to squeeze money by putting online gaming behind a paywall and not letting us purchase classic games to play on the Switch to buy once and that is it it just shows they have became more interested in profit but again do not wish to put as much effort. They seem to sadly only come out with a great game every once in awhile and that is sad.
For dungeon music, I actually think that totk's problem is the opposite to what was said here. The themes were great but there's just way too many of them. Each dungeon has 5 completely different themes making each one less impactful. I actually think the divine beasts handled it better (and actually well) with a core melody that grows louder and gains more instruments with each terminal activated, as if the beast is coming back to life again. The dungeon music in botw and totk were some of the best musical moments in the games, and some I rank among my favourites in the series.
I was really excited for the launch of tears of the kingdom because I thought they would keep the good and bring back many things from previous Zelda games with the long development because I thought they were cooking us something really special, I was disappointed because the development time was 6 fucking years but is too similar to breath of the wild, a game I already didn’t like.I think there was so much missed potential and especially still lacking Zelda staples like the hook shot or claw shot.They could have made it so you can add more chain to the hook shot without breaking the game, they could have even added the double claw shots as an upgrade like in twilight princess which would make exploring the empty worlds of these two games much more exciting.
I did like the Divine Beasts (yeah, weird enough) but I do agree that a sense of progression needs to be reaffirmed in the open world Zelda games. That feeling the old dungeons cause wasn't there in BOTW, and there's many easy ways it could've been fixed. Still, BOTW is one of my fav Zelda games of all times
0:29 - 0:36 Absolutely agree. I've never played both BotW and TotK and I never will. I may be biased for older Zelda games, but "Open World Zelda" doesn't work for me.
That’s literally what the original Zelda is
@@nellcrud8082 Not only that.. You could say that every Zelda is "kinda" Open World, other than the first two being pretty much Open World since you have no idea where to go. Guess I couldn't put my thoughts correctly into words.
@@nellcrud8082The original Zelda still had items and linear dungeons, so pretending like Totk calls back to it's "roots"when it gets rid of some of the best parts in that game.
but the two newest games are the two best selling, so it's just gonna get worse from here. looks like we gotta play the old games or indie zelda-likes
edit: the newer zelda games are watered down as to imitate the kind of brain dead, numbing, tried and true open world formula that the average consumer will have no problem with and will never get stuck on. the old ones were intentionally punishing and frustrating as to subsequently make finishing one feel deeply rewarding. modern nintendo is scared of that. the only way we can fix this disaster is by boycotting future releases that don't fix the problem, which will never happen, because og fans that have played any zelda that got the formula right are few and far between
rip auto
The dungeons suck, The story Itself Is too small for how large the world Is, The world Is too big (Specially Totk), The world of botw and (Specially) totk reminds me of FF 1-9 world map and the start of totk reminds me of botw!
Reject nu-Zelda, embrace real Zelda
Glad someone said this.
I agree with this. I had to look up a guide to figure out the first dungeon. The combat and lore of BotW I really like, but I hate everything else which ruins it for me.
The new dungeons do suck ass, the shrines are a creative way to get heart peices. When they make another open world zelda, we will see how much people like it if dungeons are not done way.better.
I’m so glad you made this video and I really hope it gains recognition.
hey , when people say, hard time make great people, its true good time make weak people. thats how game nowaday easy easy and easy, cause kids are more get hand holding nowaday, ALL THING MUST BE EASY
I replied to your other comment but you’re just coming off as cringe.
@@Themacattack1209 you called it cringe cause you dont understand it, or maybe not align with my view, and then ? cringe ? u kid just use that word just to insult ur knowledge not mine, go bite the dust sucker
@@Themacattack1209 its a reality, cringe because you dont want to accept it
They have been chasing the casual market since the wild success of Wii Sports. With Skyward Sword Nintendo tried to teach casuals how to play Zelda by tutorializing dungeons in the overworld and over tutorialized. With BotW They removed progressive complexity so that ever challrnge was its own tutorial.
1:01 remember ER legecay dungeons arwe way different from traditional 3d Zelda dungeons. ER ones are closer to the first 2D Zelda (yep, Zelda 1 and Zeda II).
Despite that, I agree terminals shouldn't be marked on dungenos, it damage exploration a lot. At least in TOTK you can turn them off , I don't recall in botw
The worst part is that we're the minority. The series has never been anywhere near as wildly successful as it is now. There is such a thing as a franchise being too popular for its own good, it happened to Pokemon and Animal Crossing too. RIP classic Zelda 1986 - 2013
Hmm
I guess the best we can hope for is that Echoes throws us a bone and maybe classic Zelda will live on in overhead smaller Zelda games
I sadly didn’t experience old Zelda games so I’m kinda stuck to new ones tbh I’m not gonna say anything about the old dungeons
7:18 gee, a ship called the "Air temple" looks like a temple. God forbid it looks like a ship... even though "ship" is no where in its name. It's probably not even a ship, it's most likely a mobile temple, using natural winds to keep it hidden by keeping it constantly moving.
What you said about the Devine Beast is absolutely true though and I hate them with a freaking passion. Not to mention the lack of bosses in the game. The champions Ballad has one unique boss and that's the monk dude you fight to get Vah Epona (my head Canon name for the master cycle) the rest are just the blight ganons... again.
My original thoughts on TotK dungeons is sure they were much better than BotW but still way below the standards for all other 3d Zelda games. And yeah the soundtracks are just sad compared to other Zelda games. Wind Waker in my opinion has the best soundtrack of any video game ever made! Is it really that hard to change up the music for at the minimum each town, dungeon, and special area?
The music is honestly the most disappointing thing I’ve ever heard in a Zelda game. It’s sad when the Snes has more memorable songs than the Swtich.
BotW was the first Zelda game that I just wanted to finish and never pick up again. TotK is the first Zelda game that I saw on the shelf.. And kept walking.
Is the same to me. I played It for 160 hours and left it never wanting to play It again. I have no intentions in playing TOTK. Meanwhile, I have replayed MM, OoT, Links Awakening and the Oracle games.
it was pointed out to me that there is a reason that zelda games have had a more niche audience when compared to Mario. Short answer is people are stupid, and dungeons are hard. I couldn't beat Majora's mask as a child because of the difficulty. With the newer games, they are trying to bring in a larger audience. And it seems to be working. It just ruins it for the origional fans that got into it mostly because of the dungeons.
Did you ever go back and finish Majora
I love skyward even the world was better then these new Zelda’s there ass totk and botw probably can share All the same map format like you posted it’s super basic and someone said shrines are a mess because I can use the system well I feel like I can cheat the shrine by a build or a exploit while past Zelda titles there was one intended way of doing it and you really can’t get around it
1000% agree. Nintendo shot for the stars, and only made it about half way through the ozone layer and then tumbled back down in a giant pile of horseshit. The temples in both open world Zelda games were such a let down. Breath of the Wild was bad and it really took away the nostalgia of all the previous Zelda games. What makes a great Zelda game? The temples, the puzzles, the critical thinking elements...it's like they dumbed it all down, which is just unacceptable! I understand putting forth effort into creating and managing the open world, but when you are missing key Zelda game components, it falls short. From personal experience, in Tears of the Kingdom, the first temple I encountered was the Fire Temple (I'm a sucker for the Gorons) and I expected great things, I was excited. Then, I was dragged down to a chasm, forced to run around and find lightroots just for the simple gift of SIGHT in the darkness and when I finally did stumble upon the temple, I seriously thought it was just a long and intricate puzzle to get INTO the temple...nope. Disappointment was all I got when I finally banged on all five of those stupid gongs and the door unveiled the boss. I feel your frustration, it is just disheartening when you call back to other Zelda games. Hopefully, whatever Zelda game comes out next, Nintendo will listen to their fans. Also, rest in peace for you beautiful doggo.
Agreed. The dungeons in both games were disappointing. You really demonstrated the issues I have with them well.
Botw and Totk are my fave Zelda games of all time, but i miss old style linear dungeons with proper puzzles. Keep shrines sandboxes, and have dungeons being proper dungeons.
i will never play a zelda game again. each game has gotten successively worse since windwaker and now its turned into a bad assassin's creed clone. why does Nintendo exist anymore, please go away!
Twilight was great too! After that I'll agree with you though
@@jasonknowing Yeah, it is a great game, but you can see laziness begin in the form of repetitive tasks like killing those stupid bugs and various other things.
@@thearchives446 the bugs are the only thing in the game I hate and wish I could skip.
@@jasonknowing agreed, it is an incredible game otherwise
The enemies and mini bosses
Totk temples made the divine beasts look good in terms of mechanics
I'm not a Zelda fan or a dungeon crawling fan, but I can understand the feeling since I play a lot of RPGs n they have some type of dungeons, going through similar challenges feels boring af, I know that low budget games do it a lot, I'm actually playing Lost Dimension on Steam n it show it low budget expectation vs reality design
I agreed 100%
You’re right.
Good video i agree
I loved botw divine beasts and shrines together they were awsome
1:27 I want you to know she was 16 then.
it is too soon to really judge the new dungeon design because it was only 2 entries that had this formula. i have not even touched the dungeons in tears yet but i will say the divine beasts had some original concepts but very poor execution despite deriving ideas going back to eagle's tower from link's awakening. this might be a hot take but only a few 3d dungeons were good. most were mediocre but generally underwhelming. the forest, water, snowhead and great bay temple come to mind. then there is the wind temple, lakebed, temple of time, sand ship and the sky keep. others like snowpeak forest and hyrule castle were decent but the latter was underwhelming for end game. for the divine beasts, vah naboris was good and the final trials were not bad either. hyrule castle was also a good size for its structural layout.
The divine beasts weren't good enough to bring back a second time. 2 entries with this system is far too many. They failed to iterate on the gameplay of this system in any interesting way in TotK. It's time to retire it
@@athorem what i would do is go back to a standard dungeon structure where they are navigable labyrinths but have different layouts. not all need to require the item to complete it and some could have optional items but none should have mandatory items that are not relevant for the dungeons they are found in. divine beasts could work if they were part of a dungeon such as a dungeon within a dungeon but not in the way botw designed them. they lacked combat based challenges (although both games have poor enemy design (tears having overpowered resources and poor enemy AI) and botw's variety is the worst in the series when excluding upgraded and elemental variants)and the navigation does not seem intuitive. hyrule castle was closer to a standard dungeon but it lacked locks and keys and was too open where you could paraglide your way to the sanctum. i am for open world zelda but it needs boundaries an variety.
The SS hate was unnecessary, 1 of my favorite Zelda games.
That game sucked.
@@radicalizedonline7109 It was and is PEAK Zelda.
@@nworder4life To each their own. I was very disappointed in it.
@@radicalizedonline7109 From a story and lore perspective, I don't see how you can be upset with it. You are literally entering the sacred realm and collecting the Triforce, making SS Link the only Link to ever have a perfect balance of Power,Wisdom and Courage. You even see the sacred realm turn golden as Link spirit leaves the sacred realm right after collecting all 3 pieces of the triforce. That would be a reference to ALTTP golden realm.
@@nworder4life - Story / lore isn’t that important to me, and I didn’t find it to be particularly strong in that department. The game overall was just too repetitive, too objective-driven, and too gimmicky, especially compared to the previous entry TP. I remember fighting that Demise monster for the 3rd time and thinking “I already did this, it’s filler, this isn’t fun.” Then having to redouble the entire map to do mandatory fetch quests was lame and unenjoyable. The game was full of stuff like that. Almost every Zelda game I enjoy more on replay, but SS is the only one I just wanted it to be over. BOTW I haven’t even bothered replaying since it’s barely even a game.
They don't suck, but ok
Are some of them underwhelming, sure.
I thought the dungeons in tears were a huge step forward, although water temple is too short.
y’all are just a bunch of haters lmao, totk and botw allows you to solve puzzles in whatever way you want giving you a sense of free will and allowing your experience to be different from any other player. you just want to be told what to do and in what order
While that is definitely a strength of the botw and TotK dungeons, it still leads to a weakened PUZZLE/dungeon experience. The dungeons of other games are expertly crafted to teach you things to use in different parts of it and they have fantastic design which is what the modern dungeons miss. If you play a traditional Zelda game you’ll feel satisfied for how you overcame the increasingly difficult puzzles of the dungeon, paced consistently well. It’s a more streamline approach that works well for a puzzle section format. The freedom of modern dungeons is cool, but it leads to a more diluted dungeon experience.
I couldn't even finish the video. I agree with ya, it's a different experience! Like he was comparing the music, but it didn't show the music of Tears of the Kingdom for comparison! I do like linear gameplay, but not every Zelda has to be the same, I do like the dungeons of old, but from what I played of Breath of the Wild, I very much enjoyed it!
@@octoinlove888 in older Zelda games, i just used a guide to solve puzzles, so never had that satisfaction lol xD
@@starlalilymoon i dont necessarily disagree with your point on the music, there are some musical elements that are well done in botw/totk dungeons (morse code for sos in divine beasts, lead up to the wind temple being musically interesting) (though i think generally music and audible ambience from older games is better, its not a huge point tbh) but open ended dungeons, while cool make for a lesser dungeon experience imo in each puzzle being less satisfying or interesting and the dungeon as a whole. and if you had just used a guide every time, i dont think youre at exact liberty to discuss which ones are better and make for a better puzzle/dungeon experience if you never had the pleasure of enjoying the design and solving it yourself
@octoinlove888 I still have enjoyment in doing dungeons with a guide. My opinion is just as valid as ones that don't use a guide. I mainly used a guide to make sure I got all the chests or items. There are also times I don't use a guide. I memorized ocarina of time dungeons for example without a guide after the first time. There's still plenty of enjoyment and because of doing the dungeon puzzles, I do drawings of my own dungeon maps.
The reason for these new generic and boring dungeos is because of the huge influx of female and black "gamers" the last years, so they had to make it easy enough for them.
@@starlalilymoon Thanks, that's a positive these days, also when you say "older games of the series" i guess you mean twillight princess and skyward sword.
@@nazbol1141 I mean more ocarina of time and majora's mask... lol
Bingo. They need to go.
All i hear is just a moaning child. If you don't like it then don't play it
Agreed. Plus, he tried to do comparisons of the music, but didn't show the music of Tears of the Kingdom!
Open world Zeldas are not Zeldas, good games by all means, not Zelda games though.
an open world hub with real longer, more linear real dungeons would be great
So, the first Legend of Zelda is not a Zelda game? It was pretty open world mate at least for an NES game. Breath of the Wild was inspired by that very first game xD
You can not like them, but you're objectively wrong for saying they're "badly designed" these aren't meant to be the same dungeons of old, they're meant to be a grander puzzle, nothing that takes forever to get through but also not something forgettable. I love both takes on Zelda dungeons but to call the newer ones bad is just not true and sounds more like butthurt from being stuck.
Tf? The dungeons in these games are suoer forgettable
they really have nothing going on though.
@@zurkke They actually do though. You're actively having to move the dungeon while you explore it, what's going on in the water temple in oot? Ooo that's a real interesting temple, can't wait to do nothing in most of the rooms.
You can literally see the entire dungeon from the moment you step foot on it, how is it any clever at all? How can you say that is even CLOSE as good as a vertical, layered dungeon where you need to control the water levels in a way that helps you gather all the keys until the final section? And the fact that you say you do "nothing" in most of the rooms shows that you've probably never cleared it anyway. @@bayardkyyako7427
I agree with you, I like both new and old dungeons/shrines! The weird part is the guy who's complaining tried to say the music was bad for Tears of the Kingdom for it's dungeon, but didn't show the music!
Zelda 64 makes dungeons impossible.
Wow as a person who is brand new to Zelda I didn't know that dungeons were such an integral part. I actually love the open world hero aspect and Everytime I need to leave the beautiful sunny radiant grassland to spend hours in a depressing dungeon I want to rip my hair out 😡.
Play the first Zelda game. The concept is one big open world with several smaller uniquely themed levels or dungeons, each with a boss and special items. The dungeons themselves are like puzzles. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it, but that’s what made the series popular.