Yeah, if you pardon a metaphor, the levels in Banjo-Kazooie feel much like disconnected island whereas Banjo-Tooie’s world feels like a fully-connected world.
My love for Tooie is a bit different - as a kid, I only had Banjo Kazooie, we had a tough time financially so we only had a couple of games. A family friend however did have Tooie, and to me (someone who had beaten Kazooie probably 100 times), it was this magical expansion with extra moves and new worlds that I got to play once in a blue moon. I'll always love Banjo Kazooie, but Tooie for me was this elusive extra part of the game that only when I was a young adult I got to revisit for myself, and loved it.
This is exactly me - I played BK countless times as a kid and loved it. But I never got to play BT as a kid. The first time I played it was in my 30s and it was so much fun - it was big and difficult that it was challenging enough for me as an adult. I really loved it and was a pleasant suprise. BT is better than BK in the challenging aspect but BK is still the nostalgic #1.
As someone who loves both games, Tooie always felt more adventurey to me, while Kazooie felt simpler and more compact. Both premises have their up and downs, and while it's true that Kazooie is more replayable because Tooie is more exhausting, I don't think this is necessarily a strike against Tooie, as it's the same situation bigger, more involved games find themselves in when you compare them to simpler less time-demanding ones. Like, I'm currently playing The Witcher 3 and while I'm enjoying it I can already tell you it's gonna be a long while until I decide to replay it again. On one hand, I find completing Mayahem Temple more satisfying, but on the other I know Mumbo's Mountain is a simpler endeavor that takes less time and probably will get more runs from me because of this. This extrapolates to the rest of both games as a whole. Overall I think the levels in Kazooie are more memorable, but that doesn't mean Tooie doesn't have it's gems. Witchyworld is fun, Jolly Roger's Lagoon is one of the rare cases where the water level is my favorite stage in the series, Grunty Industries is kind of a Zelda dungeon in disguise that I happen to find extremely clever. Having said that, I really dislike Cloud Cuckooland. Way too much flying makes the level feel disjointed. Now if you allow me to go on a tangent here, I've also seen Tooie being compared to DK64. Unlike Tooie, I DO find myself in the camp that considers DK64 to be weak (not necessarily BAD, but definitely worse than both Banjo games IMO), but my reasons have more to do with thematic integration. As I said, Tooie feels more adventurey, with levels that interact with each other giving the feeling of a cohesive world. DK64 would be in the same camp, but it's levels always felt fake to me, like a ton of the stuff you find has nothing to do with the level itself. It's full of generic barrel minigames that don't fit the theme of the levels, bullet switches, instrument switches that do different stuff just because, and while the Banjo games also have switches and pads that are only there so Banjo can use them (Grunty switches, fly/jump pads, the pads that allow you to separate both characters in Tooie), I always felt DK64 was much more egregious and immersion-breaking about it because it's CONSTANTLY throwing them at you. Not to mention the fact that the whole game revolves around collectables being arbitrarily able to be collected by only one Kong, which adds both to the backtracking AND to breaking the believability of the world. All of these things made DK64 feel more like a checklist. Tooie, while also having a checklist-like concept, manages to avoid this feeling IMO because of it's more cohesively designed levels, and feels more like an actual adventure. At least, that's how I personally feel. I'm not going to talk about Yooka-Laylee because I haven't actually played it yet.
Perfect explanation. I usually give roughly the same explanation when I explain how I appreciated the vast, interconnected nature of Tooie when I was younger, and that it might not be everyone's cup of tea but it had a lot of wonderful moments, and I loved that Tooie's moveset was a perfect superset on Kazooie's, and how the bosses and minigames and more robust transformations always felt like welcome additions to the formula to me. Not for everyone if people really don't like backtracking or really want to speedrun their games, but it's by no means objectively bad, or not a worthwhile sequel.
I've actually never been able to go past World 2 of DK64 because I'm bored in anticipation of the backtracking to collect colored coins and bananas. It's just a brick wall I can't get past. I think one day I'll finish but I likely never will 100% it (maybe with the "Switch Kong Anytime" mod thingie ?). Meanwhile, Tooie has a lot of stuff but it's meaningful. With its backtracking it tries making the world more cohesive and connected, and its bigger worlds actually try to do the same and make the levels make more sense and feel more lived in while also having more visually pleasing sight (at the price of less landmarks, more spaced between each other). Overall it makes the game feel, as you said, adventurey, which was really cool to me at the time. And I'm playing through it regularly to this day! :)
I'm in the category of those that prefer DK64, but simply because I love the swath of collectibles which BT lacks. This is a similar reason why BK is stronger than BT: The notes are individual instead of grouped.
@@noname-jt6kl You like games for the literal collectible count? Pretty sure BT has more *types* of things to collect than DK64 and BK. They probably grouped the notes in Tooie so that they could track which ones you collected, whereas in BK they had to do that bullshit "best note score" thing, which I assume was due to hardware limitations. But there's still tons of garbage to collect in every level if that's all you're playing for. The color-coded items in DK64 that you had to swap characters 5 times per area to collect just felt like tedious filler to me and I'm so glad they didn't do anything like that in either BK game.
@@loonybin7835 true, true. But BK has a higher number. Plus the hardware note thing is absolute bull since DK64 has more collectibles yet can save them all.
People say backtracking like they have never played a metroidvania before, since that's the sorta style it went for, getting new moves to do things in older levels. I played Banjo-Tooie first, and when I tried Banjo-Kazooie, it bored the heck outta me, there isn't anything to do in it. I respect it as a starting point, but Tooie feels like the better experience imo
Yeah but here’s the thing, if I’d wanted to play a metroidvania I’d go play a metroidvania. Banjo kazooie is a collectathon and should’ve stuck with that formula.
@@SergioLopez-yu4cu You mean like walking from point A to point B (in "Kazooie")? You do that in both games because both are platform games. Part of the fun IS getting from point A to point B. The difference is in "Tooie" there is a lot more emphasis on backtracking once you unlock certain areas or abilities. They made the worlds all connected and I find that to be an awesome addition. Are you just supposed to have all the items right in front of you as soon as you enter the world?
My thoughts on the three points why some people don't like Banjo-Tooie: 1.) I don't mind the backtracking. I actually like having a reason to go back to a previous world. 2.) I didn't have any issues with the mini-games. I liked most (if not all) of them. 3.) I liked that the worlds were bigger. It felt like there was a lot more to explore, and it didn't really feel empty either. I can sort of understand the criticism, but it really just comes down to personal preference by the end of the day. I'm a fan of both games. Both really fun to play, and just overall a good time.
Thank you for the completely reasonable and thought out comment. I completely agree with you. I love Tooie, I was just exploring the reasons why some people find it annoying.
Thank you! To me, the gameplay of Banjo Tooie was a pleasant experience I was more disappointed about the pacing of the story The start was very enjoyable to me; then, a vast middle part of nothingness took place and suddenly: the end 😀
I actually really enjoyed the backtracking in Banjo Tooie. I always thought it was cool how all the different worlds were connected, and i would have to figure out if each new move could help me get something i couldn't before.
I absolutely hate the backtracking. I played it on Xbox last year and thought with walk-through guides and TH-cam videos I'd be able to finally beat it. I was wrong. There is just too much backtracking and the levels are so big. I got stuck on the grunty industries level and the walk-through guide and TH-cam videos don't really help with a lot of what needs to be done. I might try again one day, but the backtracking just makes it un-fun for me. Banjo kazooie is far more fun to play.
@@jasonbenefield7892 you should only backtrack using the shortcuts and only after you have all the abilities, also you can get most things in grunties industries without backtracking, the level is just cryptic.
@@jasonbenefield7892 I loved the backtracking as it made for little fun side quests and a fun challenge. I can understand why you hated Grunty Industries. I got lost as hell on that level as well as Terradactyland because they're so big and things start to all look the same, but you just have to keep at it until you figure out where's what. (To a lesser extent I got lost on Hailfire Peaks too, even though it's separated by two completely different sides.) If you get stuck, just come back later after you've learned new abilities and have unlocked other things/triggered other events. One of the reasons why the game takes longer is not just the backtracking, but people trying to figure out if they are SUPPOSED to backtrack or if they can get that Jiggy right there. Again, I like this because it makes for a fun challenge. You can just leave the world and come back later after you've done everything else.
Always preferred Tooie, myself. I loved all the new abilities, how the worlds were interconnected, the awesome boss fights, the minigames, etc. It just felt like a much bigger game in every respect, and I never saw that as a bad thing.
Agreed. As much as you can say take advantage of the N64 vs being limited by it, Tooie felt like the kind of scale of game that really took advantage of the N64's power. It really delivered a huge mostly seamless adventure unlike almost anything seen on home consoles before, and I'd argue wouldn't really be emulated except by the Metroid Prime games or perhaps Dark Souls 1. When I played it as a kid, it was everything I wanted in a game. It was huge, it was adventurous, it had every kind of setting, it had tons to do. It was the first game I ever played that actually had a play experience that matched up with my young imagination in terms of what I wanted from a game; it was as big and bold as kid me could imagine. When compared with Kazooie, it looks like Tooie was the game they really wanted to make, especially if you look at some of the latter Kazooie stages like Freezeezy Peak, Mad Monster Mansion, and Click Clock Wood, which are huge levels with also numerous sub areas. Click Clock Wood in particular is an absolutely massive level with complex puzzles.
@@Mortablunt In hindsight, Click Clock Wood seems like a beta test for what they wanted to do with worlds in Banjo-Tooie, with having events in one world affecting another, i.e. fixing the toxic water problem in Jolly Roger's Lagoon or pushing George Ice Cube off a ledge so he cools water in Half-Fire Peaks. In that regard, I think the developers absolutely succeeded in making the game they dreamed of with Tooie.
I love the train system. Probably one of the earliest examples of fast travel. I could never figure out how to get into Grunty Industries as a kid, until I found the train switch and tried to ride into the Grunty Industries train station Imagine my surprise when little kid me figured out that's how you're supposed to do it!
@@dravenation8428 same dude. I thought found the secret tunnel early but came to realize that's why you learned all the worlds are connected. That realization along with remembering that Grunty flat out says you ain't going in the regular way are the only hints. Which makes it sooo good as kid to see the cause and effect relationships from everything in this game.
As a kid, it was amazing. The trial and error of figuring things out was so rewarding. No internet or youtube walkthroughs. Just hours upon hours spent with my sister exploring and figuring things out. One of my favorite games of all time.
While those points are valid, it still shows how much Rare would try their best improving a sequel. While I do agree that Grunty's Industries is the most tedious... It's the exploration, discovery and problem solving that what makes a great sequel. And as for the Minigames, I would have only counted the ones that reappear in multiplayer. While I do agree that there's a bit too much... consider this... Would Tooie look more like a Kazooie clone if they haven't expanded? The first game was nearly straightforward. The bosses, advanced moves and linking worlds were great mechanics.
I’m on your side I actually prefer Tooie over Kazooie, the point of the video was just to see if the complaints of people who disliked Tooie were legit or not. However even though they were legit, it doesn’t make Tooie a bad game.
@@pressaTD Those arguments are not very sound when you think about it...because they're all occupational hazards of games when the developer is cramped for space in the storage medium. Speedrunners, are quite often the most critical of a platformers length in general. But irregardless, both of those games are awesome.
I think the main thing people get wrong when discussing the game is labelling it a "collectathon" and criticising it as if it is the same kind of game as the original one was, when in my opinion they couldn't be further apart despite having the same engine. Banjo-Tooie is an adventure game where collecting happens, the fact there's less to collect in the game despite being bigger than Kazooie should be the biggest indicator of this, much more emphasis is put on the tasks you do themselves than the reward you get from them, its all about the journey, and the worlds, whereas Banjo-Kazooie was much more concerned about the items you was getting. I don't understand the criticism that the worlds are empty or whatever because I actually think the worlds are much more lived in than Kazooie, these worlds feel like they could be actual places they're that fleshed out, and I find myself playing the game for longer sessions due to how immersive everything feels, the game just lets you breathe and take in the environments while you go at your own pace, it may take longer to complete than Kazooie but in my opinion you get way more out of it. The minigames are the weakest aspect for me though, stuff like the Saucer of Peril are irritating to me, but the worst is easily Ordnance Storage in Glitter Gulch Mine, that one just sucks in my opinion. I actually don't mind Canary Mary but thats cuz i know the trick, which is by the way to abuse the rubberbanding and stay behind her until halfway through the race. And the backtracking to me never really felt like backtracking cuz it all feels like one big world, and plus the game often gives you shortcuts back to prior worlds anyway, i'd argue that one instance of backtracking in the first game is far more egregious bc its such an outlier and feels so awkward. Anyway I love Tooie, more than the first game which I still love, I wish it didnt get so much hate.
The amount of mini games isn't really the problem in Tooie for me, it's the uniqueness of the mini games. Most of them seem like the same games just recolored for different (like the soccer or the shooting games), whereas in Kazooie the mini games feel more unique throughout the levels.
I agree, most of Tooie's mini games were basically target practice against red, green & blue targets most of the time, also some of the mini games (such as the soccer ones) were played in three rounds which made them feel to repetitive
Kinda goes even further than that. Repetition was pretty clear, however repetition is made worse by a bad quality product. One particular mini game, the race against canary man, was just plain aids, and you have to do that one twice since it has a rematch. Which is extremely difficult the second time as it drags on waaaay too long for a game about mashing your buttons. When you fail, and you likely will. Just keep in mind sorta stacks ontop to playing even more when it isn't fun to begin with. The first person minigames were all great though in spite of recycling them so often so repetition is more so an issue when repeating bad things.
@@Ghorda9 I would wager most banjo fans like myself like to 100% games, and Canary Mary is a nightmare to the thought of me replaying this game. After all these games are dubbed collectathons~ And even those who aren't completionists, they don't necessarily know what they need to progress and there's no guarantee they won't have missed enough in other worlds that they do indeed need that jiggy.
The scale of Tooie isn't inherently a problem, the problem is they stuck to having only 10 Jiggies per level making a lot of the extra space in the levels feel unnecessary. Most of the Jiggies in Tooie are much more complicated and require more steps to obtain try and make use of the level size, but most of the time it just makes each Jiggy feel more tedious to get. If they had 15-20 Jiggies per level, but cut down on how complex they were to obtain people would probably not be complaining about the size of the worlds as much. Just look at Mario Odyssey, there are a lot of gigantic levels in that game, but nobody complains about the size of the levels because there's plenty of things to collect in them.
Yeah, really. The size of Banjo-Tooie's levels isn't necessarily the problem. It's how barren they are. There isn't enough stuff in them to justify their size. This is made even worse with things like how music notes, feathers, and eggs, come in nests, making there to be fewer items to collect by any measure (not to mention only 90 jiggies exist in the game).
@@Lugbzurg i feel like the grouped music notes and eggs were more of a hardware issue, as that many entities in maps that are already too big for the console would've pushed the hardware over the edge. No matter what you think about the game, i think everyone can agree it was too big for the N64 and should've either been moved to the GC or required the expansion pack.
That's exactly why I didn't wonna ay it because it creates an tedious chore and not make it fun to play. Games like the Sypro the Dragon Trilogy on the PS1 & Mario Odyssey does it well because they keep it well balanced while being too short nor overbloated with worlds & collectables, the pacing is much faster and most importantly, there alot of fun. If Tooie would've had that, I would've loved to play for as much as I wanted.
@@stopit6229 Now that you mention it, I wonder if that has anything to do with why the enemies in Banjo-Tooie are so basic and why they respawn, therefor not having to keep track of what enemies are present and which are gone. It all makes it so the console's RAM has fewer things to keep track of to compensate for the giant levels.
@@Lugbzurg perfect explanation. I wish they kept all the items spread out, as it's one of the reasons I l,ike BK and DK64 more, while still loving this one. It's so much preparation and running around for a small number of items, it really would've been better with more stuff. Apparently they didn't use the expansion pak in this game, so if they did they may have been able to expand it.
I like Banjo Tooie's bigger levels and really didn't mind the backtracking. It was neat how they found ways to interconnect the game's worlds to one another like a 3D Metroidvania and it made the game's setting feel more cohesive. Characters in Tooie actually move around the worlds and feel alive, while most of the ones in Kazooie, aside from Gobi returning in Click Clock Wood, felt like they existed in a bubble and were never mentioned again after their individual worlds. I will say Banjo Kazooie's shorter levels makes it more fun to speedrun, but I still believe Banjo Tooie is an all-around better game.
Tooie is one of my favorite games ever. To me, I think backtracking is a good thing. You see something you can't get, you progress, get a power, now you can go back and get that thing. It's a key part of a lot of video games - even in different genres. To me, this is in the running for greatest of all time still. It still holds up to this day imo.
This probably also applies to Yooka-Laylee… a game I love but seems like I’m in the minority. This video helped me see why people may not like it, as Yooka-Laylee checks off these three boxes as well
The problems I had with Yooka Laylee were 5 worlds only including the big expansions, tons of notes to collect in randomized areas, and once you enter a new area, the camera angle is formulaic.
I guarantee yooka Kaylee would be more well liked if it didn't use that hideous lighting engine. Is it a unity thing? I've seen so many unity games, decent ones too, with similar disgusting lighting
I love Grunty Industries. It’s my favourite world specifically because of how intricate and complex the level design is. I’d say the same for all of Tooie. Ya there’s backtracking but I think it’s a necessary evil for the payoff of such cool complex interconnected levels and objectives. I feel like people who prefer Kazooie or Tooie just comes down to preference of simple vs complex level design, I love them both to death, but it is true, Kazooie’s design is nice and simple clean straightforward, and Tooie’s is messy and complex all tangled and intricate and that’s exactly what I marvel in awe at when I play through it.
I'm with you on this, the more complex the better but without making it a hassle. That's why i like progressive music more than pop, in pop you know what to expect after hearing the first minute of a song but in prog there's always an element of surprise. Banjoo tooie blew my mind many, many times. God, i love this game, it's my favorite game of all time
As a kid, I always felt super uncomfortable when heading towards grunty industries because I knew I wouldn't understand anything; how to get in there (super annoying and worst introduction of a level for kid me), where to go, what to do or how the levels within the building are linked to each other, felt super overstrained. I remember I only had fun in this level climbing the elevator rope and jump down from the top most point which seems to be the higest in the game haha. I didn't like this cold, industrial atmosphere and I didn't even find the way to the boss, didn't know there even was one. I really wanted to avoid this level. I replayed BT some years ago and still had this feeling and didn't really got into it, neither found the boss and didn't even look things up on the internet because I wasn't interested in it at all. My mindset changed a lot during the last years and this year I replayed the game again and now grunty industries and its boss is one of my favorite in the entire game because it's so complex and requires a lot of attention to understand how everything is linked, it really requires you to dive into the game if you want to finish it. The music of inside the building also became my favorite. It just matches perfectly, it has this subliminal dangerous industrial touch while at the same time sounding calm as if a clock is ticking, it makes you know from it that this level is smart, tricky and needs you to think and pay attention. Kind of like an interactive quiz show soundtrack that wants to make you brood over the tasks/ questions. Love it. It makes me really happy thinking about how they created this area, I think it's the most creative in the game :)
I honestly can't give the "more mini-games" as valid criticism because even with about twice as many per level, its still just a handful more than BK, which actually is just normal progression when you want to make your sequel bigger and better. I get the backtracking issues even if its something that makes sense for the worlds being interconnected. The worlds being too big is also something that depends on what you consider too big. I think some people mistake doing more for the worlds being too big. Like the only levels I think truly fall into "too big" are Jolly Roger's Lagoon and Grunty's Industries because of how they're structured
Actually, there are barely any in BK. Most of the ones he mentioned I wouldn't count, and even if I did the ones in Tooie are much longer with multiple rounds, making them even more tiring.
Tooie's minigames felt like they dragged on forever for some reason, and so many were shooters despite being an adventure platformer. Reminds me of how Conker suddenly turned into a FPS in the last 2.5 levels for no reason...
I've heard of the DK64 hate, but this is ridiculous. People hate this game for being too much, they hate Yooka Laylee for not being enough, and they hate Nuts and Bolts for being too different. So what do you want them to do? Keep remaking the same exact game every generation for eternity? Honestly, people need to grow up.
Trying to dismiss criticism just leads to developers never learning from them. Downplaying valid criticsm just leads to a "don't think, just consume" mentality that's unhealthy for games in general. The more common take is that you hear Tooie cited as something better in some regards and worse in other ways instead of these comical exaggerated "Tooie ruins everything Kazooie did well," or "Tooie is better than Kazooie in every way." Frankly, it's not just one thing that can sum it up where the criticisms come from. The backtracking and world size might not feel too bad by themselves, but when the game is also much bigger, they can kinda add together and make it feel worse than it would otherwise (it's also very much worth remembering that because of its ambition and scope, Tooie ran quite poorly on the original N64, the not uncommon slowdown just kinda piling on to make the minigames and backtracking feel worse.) The minigames thing isn't really all that out there either, writing off the disliking of minigames as "disliking more content," is a really reductive mindset when we've seen numerous sequels across different franchises be looked at by many as less enjoyable than the game that came prior to it because of the abundance of minigames and more gimmicky segments. Crash Bandicoot and Spyro are the two most popular examples where the third games are very minigame and gimmick centric, which is reasonably controversial, especially when people enjoy the core gameplay of the games as much as they do. The core is still good in those games (as well as Tooie,) but it's interuppted more often. In this same vein, Nuts & Bolts was controversial for a reason as well. It's not people "just wanting the same thing over and over again," it's the matter of the series being essentially on hiatus for over a decade and them essentially doing a complete genre switch when it comes back, it makes a lot of sense why Nuts and Bolts would be unpopular even though it wasn't a bad game in its own right. Had they released it as a spinoff alongside the mainline games, it probably would have been received better, but the fact that the franchise looked to be dead for an entire console generation and the one game fans got had very little of what made the first two games popular to begin with is extremely understandable.
I always felt that Tooie was indeed more of an adventure, and as I grew older and played more stuff, it now looks to me like a mix of a 3d collectathon and a Metroidvania (because levels are also connected in a few ways, not just because of backtracking).
Well said. if you look at the game as a Metroidvania, it totally makes sense. Now that you say that, I would LOVE a 2D side-scrolling Banjo Kazooie metroidvania action platformer game, lol.
Totally agree with your conclusion. Back in the days, we only had a few games to play again again and again. We wanted bigger worlds to explore, more minigames variations and backtracking. I remember the mysteries backtracking did and the conversations it made in the schoolyard sharing our discoveries.
I personally loved the backtracking, it made the worlds feel more connected, made the new abilities seem more valuable, and best of all got rid of musical notes resetting each time you returned to the world Being able to complete a world in a single run was kinda boring and made the game feel too linear for my liking
You done goofed. There's more than one backtracking moment in Banjo Kazooie. What about the speed shoes in Bubblegloomp? Or needing to backtrack through the lair (can't open Clinker's Cavern without shock jump) Or needing to backtrack to find Brentilda Or backtracking to get Click Clock Wood's picture?
Banjo Tooie's my favorite game (and my TH-cam namesake), and while there are flaws, I still think it's a masterpiece. I feel like the interconnectivity of the worlds really helps keep parts of the thing relevant, but that's just me
I'm more so in the camp that it was just a standard sequel. There's flaws, lotta issues and valid criticism. But definitely enjoyable for those who loved the first(like me, my favourite 64 game). The Canary rematch minigame tho did lower my enjoyment quite a bit tho lol.
I recently went back to Banjo Kazooie on Xbox after probably 10 years without playing it, because I had the need for a simple minimalist chill game, but also something very well-designed. B-K was perfect in that regard. It wasn't too long, too big, too simple or too complex. It had timeless charm and fit right in with any random 10-20 dollar indie adventure game you could find today, except with unbeatable quality. When I headed over into Tooie a month later, it felt like it was taking too big of a bite. It had "2 syndrome". Everything needed to be "bigger, better, and more badass" after riding the success of the first, and it ended up being less timelessly charming and lived more in its moment.
I 100% disagree. Tooie is so much more replayable with the amount of content that's in the game. No two runs will be the same. Kazooie has nothing new to experience if you go to play it again. I love Kazooie as it was my very first video game, but Tooie is such an improvement over the original and really got me to fall in love with gaming.
@@darkie1111 if you’re talking extra content then yes Tooie takes the win, but if you’re talking finishing the game 100% for me personally playing them both as a kid ive finished tooie maybe 3 times, whilst Kazooie ive lost count? Maybe 30 times ive completed 100%. it never gets old.
I would have liked in Tooie to be crystal jiggies just like the stars from Mario 64. You may have collected the golden jiggy already but you can go back and do the mission, jus sayin
I prefer Banjo-Kazooie. Thought it was a more compact and classy game than Tooie. Just felt like it had more polish and actually looked better. It's seems RARE decided at some point just to make games bigger, much bigger with more area to cover. Same complaint with DK64. It's just work that's not fun. And yeah, Grunty's Industries was a horrible world. Just stress and hard work.
Honestly a questionable choice to count the oil drill Jiggy in hailfire peaks as backtracking - you're going through a room in the current world to a separate room in the previous world that's completely isolated from the rest of Grunty Industries and has nothing in it but a Jiggy. It doesn't really involve actually going 'back' anywhere you've been before, or traveling more than a dozen or so steps.
For real. Your not having to do full back track for it. Just literally going into a window in a future level and then "what the fuck? That's how you in this room? Man this games a trip!"
I love both games but I could write an essay on why Kazooie is better. Ultimately tho I think the biggest reason is just that I like Bottles a lot more than Jamjars
My take: 1) Too much back tracking. I don't mind this if it's for a good reason and not some stupid move. I like the interconnectedness of say pushing the ice cube or draining the lake. (also see point 4). 2) Mini games. I like them in general, but some were just ridiculous and lazy. The mayan kickball and canary mary were just lazy and a chore to complete. 3) Worlds too big. Eh, maybe. I like the size and scale, I don't like when navigating them becomes more difficult. Perhaps a grayed out map that you can reference with areas that you've gone to would help. 4) Stupid abilities. The first game, I remember being excited to learn every new move. Flying, turbo trainers, invincibility, they were all exciting. What do we get here? A bunch of egg types that are only situationally useful and not helpful in defeating enemies? Lame. Hatch? What a joke. Rare lost their imaginations and started making chore based abilities vice actually fun and exciting stuff. I mean can you honestly say outside of glide and split up, you actually liked any abilities in the game?
Another thing about the mini games in BT is the fact that in order to get 100% you have to beat many of them multiple times, often with progressing difficulty, for a Cheato Page or other item. So while there are more mini games than in BK, you also spend way more time in each one as well.
You never have to do a mini game twice for two different prizes unless it's the Canary Mary races. Usually mini games would have two prizes for two different high scores. If you get both high scores in one go, you get both prizes like in the saucer challenge. And not all of the challenges have two prizes.
I only really get the levels being too big thing in Terrydactyle Land, and I actually *like* the backtracking because it forces the game doesn't end up feeling so much like a checklist and you get to go back and revist old areas (I know you *can* do that in Kazooie, but there's no real incentive to). I agree with the too many minigames complain, and IMO most of the new moves are also way too contextual to be useful (with a handful of notable exceptions). That said I do think Tooie is ultimately the stronger game. It's everything I loved about Kazooie but bigger and better, and just feels like the more fleshed-out world.
Banjo Tooie is basically an open worlded game, so there's backtracking involved because it forces exploration. You know, like all openworlded games... GTA, newer FF games, Fable, Morrowind, Demon Souls. That's a staple of most open worlded games...you can't speed run them. Banjo Kazooie is a speed runners paradise. 🏃♂️. Mini games in platformer games, are almost like side quests in rpgs. Ff13 was NOTORIOUS with them..but yet it's a speedrunners paradise. Newer gamers want every game to be speedrunner friendly = casual game
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Fast travel is just a design excuse, and a giant red flag of an open worls bring too big. You could possibly miss things if you don't take the time to walk back now and again.
I own both of these games, and I think I spent around an equal amount of time playing both growing up. But despite beating Kazooie, I never made it to the end of Tooie. And as an adult, I find Kazooie a lot easier to go back to thanks to how compact the levels are. That fact that only Freezeezy Peak asks me to come back later is nice, but ultimately a minor thing for me compared to the sheer size and complexity of Tooie's worlds. This aspect makes Tooie amazing to play once, but hard to enjoy again afterward. Whereas with Kazooie, it's an easier pick-up-and-play, making a revisit more inviting.
Many of the Tooie minigame use the same point-based red/blue/green layout that make them feel same-y. Witchyworld alone had like 5, and that would be fine as it is thematic to the amusement park theme. But most of the other levels have at least one which make it feel like Rare ran out of ideas and added a minigame as filler.
While they're 2 of my favorite games ever and I can't pick which one I like more, I feel like Tooie is a more unique, innovative game, and I've always been disappointed that the formula has never been expanded on. It's like a 3D platformer/adventure/metroidvania yet also its own thing entirely. While the levels are all clearly their own unique, separate entities with distinct identities, they all interconnect in ways that blew my mind, and make its world feel that much more expansive and fully realized. I understand the criticisms people have of Tooie, but I can't understand how you could love the first game and not love Tooie, even if you prefer the original.
My personal analysis would say that there's a second one for B-K in backtracking. But it's not REQUIRED. The Turbo Trainers are a huge help in Bubblegloop Swamp to beat Mr. Vile's mini-game. If you're good at the mini-game or are just super lucky, you may not need them. But I know I always did. Still, that's 2 vs 16. For me, personally, backtracking wasn't an issue for enjoying the game less. If anything, it made certain moves feel more necessary because they're needed outside of the worlds they'd expect you to have it and made the challenges feel a little more equal and it gave you more to do. I know they call that "padding the game out", but if it's done well (as I thought it was in Tooie), it's not necessarily a bad thing. Mini-Games, eh, I can see the situation. But I give Witchyworld a pass because it is LITERALLY a theme park. Games are to be expected. Cloud Cuckooland also gets a pass from me because the place is supposed to be weird and those certainly count. Third one, I do agree the worlds can be a bit too big, but the game sort of justified itself by what was in the levels. Some of them have to be though, like Terrydactyland being to spacious to allow for the Daddy T-Rex transformation. But it does beg the question, was that one really necessary? You use it to scare a caveman and... I think that's about it? (Been years since I played it). Jolly Roger Lagoon's Atlantis area doesn't feel too bad, after all you're basically in the ocean. And the Submarine form is pretty fast. Cloud Cuckooland needs a lot of space for all the various floating isles and such, so that can be understandable. Grunty Industries did a good job in feeling like a factory and multi-purpose depot. Sure, those things certainly feel less like B-K, but B-T was trying to make a point about being bigger. The purpose for their designs do lend themselves to being bigger scaled. This does mean more time needed to complete them, but that isn't in itself a bad thing. However, the average time in each world could be a bit more even, like you mentioned about Grunty Industries. Too much time in that place. In the end, I think it just FEELS different when you play each of these games. Banjo-Kazooie feels very campy, bouncy, and had more vibrant colors. The worlds were simple and compact, almost like exhibits. Tooie took itself more seriously, the textures themselves seem more complex, there's a lot of running around and an underlying serious tone that really takes out the cartoony campiness of B-K. B-K also had added charm like having every item talk when you first collect them, lots of googly eyes everywhere, and the music certainly got you into the feel of the level. B-T is more muted in tones, complexity in puzzles went up, things are explained by Jam Jars pretty much solely and even things like the Get Jiggy animation were taken out (which makes getting them seem a little less celebratory to me). Even the concept of getting Jiggies in Tooie felt more like a gimmick just to play on nostalgia, as there wasn't any real point to making them Jiggies, except to remind you of B-K. Whereas in B-K, it made sense they were Jiggies because you were actively completing pictures by putting pieces (pieces you earned) into the picture frames. B-T made you complete pictures, but the Jiggies you collected weren't used to make the pictures, they just got you access to the jigsaw mini-game. So in B-K, the Jiggies just felt more purposeful by how the mechanic was executed. In B-T, you could replace the Jiggies with literally anything else and it'd still function the same. TL;DR: Banjo-Kazooie is a game with simplicity in its design, making it an easy game to pick up and put down. It's also very happy. Banjo-Tooie is a game you really need to have time invested in it to get anywhere. Ergo, sometimes you can't make the commitment in the business of life for Tooie, which makes it tiring and possibly decrease replay value, on top of the aforementioned critiques.
I love Tooie even more than Kazooie because of its adventurous feel and memorable plot. Plus, the music is top tier. Also, backtracking is technically not required in Tooie since you only need 70 jiggies to beat the game. Even if you do want to get all the jiggies, traveling between worlds and within them have become streamlined thanks to train stations/warp pads/silos/interconnected worlds. Just doing a complete sweep after going through everything once proved to be much less troublesome than backtracking multiple times throughout the game
In honesty, love both games but Tooie knocks it out of the park. Some just don't give it a chance or have the patience to understand that the game is more challenging, tougher, darker and more fleshed out than the first.
To me this is simply unbelievable, every single person my age I've met that have played both games always agree that Tooie is objectively the best one. If anything, this is a list that proves why Tooie is the best, it's has way more content and challenges that actually make you stop and use your brain. I can understand that backtracking is not everyone's cup of tea (personally, I love it), but my God... do people actually think that have more minigames and larger worlds is really a bad thing?
I love both games the same, but for starters who play tooie, it's very frustrating not knowing how to move in certain levels, because you can get lost easily
@@leelahff I understand that feeling, I too remember being lost for days and even MONTHS in the case of a particular jiggy, until I gave up and kept going but that feeling when you're on a level and learn something that you think could help you to get a jiggy from an earlier level is so satisfying IMO. The challenge is what made this game so fun. Fun fact, it's because of this game I learned how to speak English, I did it in order to read the singposts and the dialogues to see if that could help to progress any further lol.
@@agentepolaris4914 really? I think it's almost perfectly sized, there's always something to see or do in a level and none of them overstay their welcome
I loved Banjo-Tooie as a kid. I played it when I was 10, and again when I was 17. Both times I had the same problem. I could never easily find the same cave/door again. Especially in the later levels. A lot of the time playing was going in and out of doors hoping I picked the correct one. Banjo-Kazooie was much more compact, and it was always easy to remember where everything was. I even played it just a couple months ago for the first time in like 8 years. I'm hoping they release Tooie on NSO so I can replay it and see how I do this time around.
Even though the criticisms are valid, I’d have to disagree on the idea that it makes Banjo-Tooie the lesser of the two N64 Banjo games. I’ve always seen it as equal, if not superior in some ways. The backtracking rarely ever took away from my enjoyment of the game. In fact, often times I’d actually consider it a blessing since it would give me time to plan and think about how I’d tackle another challenge for a jiggy or another collectible while doing the current collectible. Both games have something for everyone.
I used to agree with these arguments until I 100% finished both games and wanted to do it again after some time. Then, I found Banjo-Kazooie to be way too easy and short, while Banjo-Tooie, for the same 3 reasons you point out in the video, way more challenging and fun. Many years after 100% finishing both games a great deal of times, I honestly feel Banjo-Tooie is far superior.
It’s funny I had the exact same experience, I remember going back to Mumbo’s Mountain and I was like there’s just jiggys laying out in the opening wtf?
@@pressaTD Mumbo's Mountain is such a shame. I get it's the first world but not even Bob Omb Battlefield is THAT simple. Great video, by the way. Thanks for helping keep these amazing games alive.
the reason why people hate the game is cuz they have zero patience and wanna get from point a to point b as fast as they can and its not a speedrun. the point of tooie having more of everything is cuz its a sequel and sequels tend to be bigger and have more to do. their reasons for hating the game aren't really valid, they are using their "hate" as a scapegoat to hide the fact that they just wanna beat the game quickly, they dont care for exploration or 100% the game, its complete the game with the required (in this case) jiggies. the haters should just stick to very short and linear games and shooters. side note: the backtracking has a tiny valid criticism but lots of games have backtracking and more of it than tooie hence valid criticism being tiny.
All you proved is that rare succeeded. They too banjo and added a ton more to the gameplay on the same size cart. It was a great feat and all these complaints were selling features at the time.
I love to back track to realize that everything was connected. World too big is bad ? Its like whining about a game having too much content. Yeah i loved this game and trying to beat it in 2-3 hours is definitely not the right way to play any games, IMO
Secondly, a few things on the backtracking are incorrect (sorta) Mayhem Temple's pillars can be cheesed with some careful jumps. Basically double jump towards the pillar, then use the extra height of the ground pound to climb the pillars and nab it, no backtracking there necessary Glitter Gulch's power shed can be ignored with fire eggs (or if the brightness is good enough, you can see the outlines of the planks) Grunty Industries' toxic waste hop can be done without the pack. Simply jump into the toxic waste softly, then jump back out quickly, and repeat until you make it across (The game has a timer to where it damages you and chucks you back, if you beat the timer you can just hop and swim to the jiggy) Sure the first one's difficult to do and the other two don't stop you from having to backtrack at least once in the respective world, it's just nice to get a bit more done before the inevitable backtracking
About the powershed thats that dark roon with the fire generator and the jiggy on an upper platform with the ladder i wanna say a backflip will work for getting up the ladder to that jiggy i think one time i accidently did that and managed to snag the jiggy pn the n64 version
More than "too many minigames", I reckon Tooie uses mechanics that differ too much from the core gameplay. Such as First person shooting, football top down, etc. Players may find themselves playing a different game way too often, conflicting with the experience they came to expect.
I love Tooie more for its new worlds and mini games and boss battles. It feels so much better to me than Kazooie and I love Kazooie. The backtracking can get tiresome but it’s kinda cool to go back into these worlds after it’s been so long
crazy to think when all of us first played this game when it came out in 2000 for N64 or 2009 on the XBOX version, once you are in Mayahem Temple there's secret access to the fifth world Terrydactyland. Talk about genius.
The backtracking is much simpler if you save all of it until you learn all the abilities after world 8 then go back and swoop up all the jiggies in previous worlds that required a specific move. Which is like 1-3 jiggies of backtracking per world.
I just don't get why people don't like tooie. It's my favorite out of the two original games. bigger worlds, more story, better connectivity between the areas and of course, my favorite banjo kazooie boss, mr. patch. Not only that, this is the game where banjo learns how to grab on to edges, and banjo can actually do stuff on his own. he can punch, he can use his backpack to carry stuff and npcs, and he can go invincible by hiding in his back pack! In the first game all he really did was walk around carrying kazooie and trying to diffuse all the hostility she caused.
In the opening sequence of the game following Bottles' death Kazooie: Great! I get to peck some more witch butt! Let's go Banjo! Banjo: Sigh... I'd a feeling its not going to be so easy this time... Grunty laughs. The game is great especially if you are an experienced gamer like myself and know where everything is and how to solve puzzles, backtrack, etc. If you play Tooie first over Kazooie and never played the actual first game, PLAY KAZOOIE FIRST to get a better sense of the gameplay and story. Sure Bottles' tutorials/old moves in Tooie is a nice refresher and is sort of helpful in Spiral Mountain, but it does not beat the commodity of the original.
Dont get me wrong i still think that BK is the better game but there is one thing that many critiques ignore and its the fact that back then we used to play and replay the same games A LOT especially in the N64 era, we didnt have anywhere near the access of games that we have now so the backlog was not that big, so we saw the length, backtracking and size to be a good thing even if it was as ridiculous as it was in this game and DK 64, i understand the criticisms and they are valid but overall BT was a great sequel that complimented BK in the best way possible.
Honestly, I have to agree with you. The backtracking is a pain in the ass. Some mini-games are good, but others... not so good. The Canary Mary rematch from Cloud Cuckooland and the shooting game from Grunty's Industries are the ones that I hate the most. Speaking of Grunty's Industries, I'm not a huge fan of this level, and neither Terrydactyland for the same reason.
Two points: A) Mr Vile encourages backtracking to face him with shoes B) It's poor phrasing to say that Tooie's shown to be too big/too much in any particular category. You could use exactly the same statistics to "prove" that Kazooie is too small/too few/too little in the same categories. What the statistics actually show is that Tooie has a lot more backtracking, significantly more minigames, and levels that take longer to complete.
Encouraging isn't requiring, which this video was covering. I already mentioned in another comment how the Power Hut basement and Smuggler's Cavern jiggies shouldn't be considered backtracking as you don't actually have to visit future levels to obtain them (but they are suggested similar to Mr Vile), so it's good it wasn't included here. What exactly is "poor" phrasing, is there some objective measurement one could point to? I prefer Tooie over Kazooie and disagree with the complaints, but hard to say that people giving their honest opinion is poor phrasing.
@@DeafeningCha The statistics show that Tooie has more of these things and Kazooie has less. Saying that Tooie has "too much" or that Kazooie has "too little" is a subjective interpretation, not an objective fact. As for encouraged/required, the question there is how you interpret developer intent, and whether a possible-but-not-intended solution counts to make it not required.
@@rmsgrey Wouldn't that make all opinions poor phrasing then? Should people never voice their opinions about a game, or anything for that matter? Statistics don't mean anything to people unless they can make a comparison to something. People can't make decisions without opinions, so if deciding between BK or BT, it comes down to which of the statistics they prefer. If they have a preference at all, how else would they describe that preference without mentioning one of the stats as being "too" much/little/boring/old/lame/weird/etc for their liking?
@@DeafeningCha The video wasn't presented as a subjective "this is why I don't like Tooie", but as an objective measure of the game. And, yes, saying "it's too much X _for me_ " would be fine, but saying that the statistics show it's too much X is not. It's the difference between "I don't like this game" (factual statement about an opinion) and "This game is bad" (factual statement about an objective fact).
@@rmsgrey No, the video's main premise is to address why many people are saying the levels are too large for them, as _individuals_. The title of the video is "Why People Hate Banjo Tooie". Is "hate" an objective word? Seems like the video is primarily addressing subjective matter. Also, saying "the game is bad" is not a factual statement.
Okay sure, but all three of those metrics are objective. As a Super Metroid speedrunner, there’s no such thing as too much backtracking. The large worlds are honestly just good, I like them. And, in Kazooie, many of the jiggies were just lying around in the open. I liked how they made you earn it in Tooie
@@Leopoldshark Granted, but I stand by my original statement. All three metrics are objective. Some like those things, others don't. I didn't mean to compare Banjo-Tooie to Super Metroid, I was simply giving a personal example proving that some people will like the backtracking.
Tooie is one of my all-time favorite games. My best friend and I have such fond memories of playing through it at sleepovers. We loved the larger, interconnected worlds and how NPCs would traverse them as well. It made the entire game feel more open and connected instead of each world being in its own little bubble like Kazooie. Being only six at the time in the year 2000, the game felt massive to us. I loved the challenge of having to brainstorm and backtrack to get jiggies from previous worlds. With the one exception in Kazooie, you can go in a world once and take it to the cleaners if you were good, and then go onto the next. Repeat, then the game's over. It just felt more like a journey having to explore all over Isle O' Hags in circles instead of having it be so linear. They were fun to explore and the music is easy on the ears too. So it didn't really feel like a bore to me. When we finally got to Grunty, it was so satisfying because we had to grind forever to get there. Back when we had no cares in the world. Oh to be young again...
For me personally, I just felt as though BT's massive scale came at the cost of the original's charm. BK just felt way more tailored, thought out and never overstayed its welcome (except for Click Clock Wood, maybe, which is subjective, but personally I think that only bolsters the point being made, since that world is spread out over 4 different stages, and climbing the tree again and again was just a nightmare). The rest of the game and its levels always felt like a small, recognisable world, and you always knew where to head if wanting to revisit parts of it, whereas BT's approach just felt so much more watered down and tedious.
I think the themes for most of the levels in Tooie were pretty crummy imo. Temple, eh. Mine, ew. Creepy carnival place, super ew. Lagoon water level, nice. Dino land, YES! Factory, EW!!! Fire-Ice mountain, YES! Crazy sky world, meh. Banjo-Kazooie's worlds were a lot more fun to me: Mountain, eh. Beach, nice. Cavern with giant shark robot, YESSSSSS! Swamp with crocs and frogs, YESSSSS! Ice level, nice. Desert level, nice. Monster mansion, YES!! Nasty boat, no. Seasonal giant tree (and you get to be a bee and actually fly around), ok! I'm also sad that we got a dino form in Tooie, and it stunk! Even the baby croc from Kazooie ended up being better...
The complaint of Tooie being too massive, or indistinct always seemed to me like it came from people who never actually played the sequel. Tooie has a much greater attention to detail to making particular areas of levels more distinct and traversable. For being distinct, the developers were so pedantic that they would use even lighting or even the colors of the fade in a loading zone to make an area more identifiable. More things, such as repeated textures instead being recolored, or entirely unique geometry and overall themes. One of the levels is literally a theme park, which each theme being entirely different in appearance and concept. Every method of fast travel even uses language-free, easily understandable icons before the name of the area it leads to. On the note of fast travel, the game makes its' overworld and levels incredibly traversable. There are 3 separate, and entirely unique forms of fast travel; in multiple cases you can even fast travel to other fast travel points as a way to route your fast travel. On top of this, while scenes are sizable, the play areas are generally tinier in comparison. Once you've visited one of these areas, returning to them and starting or accomplishing your defacto task-at-hand takes seconds. These criticisms of the game are issues that the developers went to great lengths to solve. While they didn't do a perfect job, it is overwhelmingly better than a lot of people make it out to be.
@@drahsid2 What..? Reviewers who played the game in full had that complaint to make. I spent hours on the game, and whilst I never completed it, I wouldn't have to even have spent half the amount of time playing it to tell you the worlds felt far too big. Of course it's entirely subjective, some people think bigger is automatically better, and whilst I agree that the developers went to lengths to make the traversal more approachable, the scope and size still didn't make for as tight-knit as the levels and overworld could've been, so much as it just consisted of... More distance to cover.
I've never played these games as a kid, so I recently got to play them on the xbox s. Absolutely loved Kazooie, couldn't handle not even the first hour of Tooei
Imo you're missing out on tooie. It has some of the most unique level designs of any game and there's a lot of new moves, transformations and mechanics that make it so fun. Maybe you felt burnt out after playing kazooie recently, give it a second try someday
I went into playing this game blind without looking at reviews or people's opinions after playing kazooie about 10 years ago and having tooie in my backlog from rare replay. The biggest gripe I have with the game is the backtracking to the point it becomes tedious and a nauseating chore for progression. Kazooie doesn't has some and doesn't do it to that degree.
Personally I liked BT more than BK. As young kids, it took me a while to finally beat BT, but the thing that made BK extremely tedious was the notes. The fact that you had to recollect all previously collected notes to increase your total by just 1 every time you exited the level was just absurd to me. Not having to recollect notes made BT so much more fun; every time I saw some notes, I got excited to collect them. While there was an annoying amount of backtracking, it was nowhere near as much as DK 64.
that's it. it the different areas didn't seem like levels or a checklist you run down to me, but like a huge world that wants and needs to be explored. I prefer this non-linear type, feels more realistic to me
I hated the game when I first played it. I replayed it recently and ended up loving it. Go as far to say most of it is better than the first,definitely a very good job of expanding on what the first game did.
I mean, I love those 3 Downsides you mentioned hahahaha, It's something I really like in videogames. Furthermore, you could say the same things for The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild: -The world is MASSIVE -It is packed with minigames for every region -There's a really good chance you will have to backtrack to every region to complete 100% in a first timer mindset. So.. People who hate Banjo Tooie also hate BOTW? That's a question to think guys! 🤔
I wouldn't mind the bigger worlds in Tooie if they actually had more things like music notes to fill out the space and guide the player (like if there are notes there you know you haven't explored it yet so you don't get lost as easily). I just feel like the problem isn't that the levels are too big, it's that they're big for no reason since there's nothing between points A and B in the worlds.
Well it's not like the first game was any better with collectable placement, I call BS that some areas only have like 3 notes to grab and I'm like srsly??!! Didn't bother me that much in Tooie, cuz yeah worlds were big but at east the notes were more in numbers in some areas, the first game is more empty than the second game.
The levels are too big is also a side effect that Tooie is harder to navigate primarily because the design of the kazooie levels all revolve around a central object while Tooie doesn’t have that
My thoughts on BT are that no, it wasn’t as good as BK. And the backtracking could be tedious at times; but it was also cool how the worlds were interconnected and it added a new element of puzzle solving. So I appreciated the change up to the normal collect-a-thon. Also, great choice of music for this video, appreciate the paper Mario and SMRPG background music :)
The levels just have too much open space. I feel like when I'm playing Banjo Tooie 90% of my time is spent just walking around. Witchyworld is my favourite level because its relatively small with lots of extra areas you visit then leave. Glitter gulch mine is the worst because eveything is so spread out and okay have to walk over the same places over and over again.
No they don’t, because it makes it feel like an organic world, and it makes it feel more explorable, even if its not actually… a billion chambers crammed into a level has its own drawbacks if the whole game is that, the final world of Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts, suffered this greatly where the only intended way to get into the different biomes was through the tubes, and it took a game that had been fantastically open world, some times genuinely too open, lacking enough enemies, and suddenly made it feel full of enemies and claustrophobic as hell
You fail to highlight one other, more subtle reason why people would look back less fondly on this game: We're older now. Some of us look back and still enjoy it as much as we did when it came out, but the rest would come back and we just don't have the time to invest in such a massive undertaking, what with adult responsibilities and all. Compare that to when we were much more excitable kids who had energy to spare and were dying to come home from school so we could play the game and see what was hiding around the next corner. This shift from childhood to adulthood while both games remain exactly the same now as they were 20 years ago puts Kazooie in an advantage: Its big enough to get that sense of adventure but its also grounded enough that we can sink an hour (maybe two for Click Clock Wood) and feel accomplished whereas Tooie would overwhelm us in an activity we engage to unwind when we aren't the same eager children with time to spare anymore. This also would mean that at that younger, more energetic age, we would see Kazooie as inferior and Tooie as superior since the former can't keep up with us while Tooie always has something new to wow us. Come adulthood and we can't keep up with Tooie as well and appreciate Kazooie for dialing things down enough for us. Edit: Full disclosure here- I am in the Tooie is better camp; I am merely trying to be objective and understanding about this point.
That's basically why I prefer Kazooie. I played it on release. I didn't get to play Tooie until the XBLA version and I was a lot older by then so I saw the game through very different eyes.
The early levels are great, the later levels can definitely get a bit rough. I like this game more than Kazooie, but I definitely get why people don’t like it as much.
@@derekrequiem4359 The reason why Nuts and Bolts exists is because Rare completely run out of ideas for Banjo, and wanted to make a game based on Lego's.
I personally always loved Tooie for implementing different ammo types, I never had any issues with how big the worlds were, it always made me excited when I found or figured out something new.
Damn, this video really ruffled Tooie fans' feathers huh? By the way, a better method of comparing world sizes would have been ripping level models from both games comparing physical space.
I guess the category should have been called levels are too long. I was more measuring how long a level took to complete over how physically big it is. For example Grunty Industries physically isn’t a huge level, but its the longest in the game because of all the backing tracking you have to do in it.
1. I don’t mind the backtracking. I find it adds to the challenge of the game. Even as an 11-year-old, I was able to figure out when I couldn’t complete a level in its entirety because I didn’t learn a certain move yet. 2. Personally, I liked all the mini-games, however, I can understand why people feel differently, given that many of them are repetitive. 3. Honestly, in my opinion, the only levels in BT I find “too big” are Terrydactyland and Grunty Industries. But again, I didn’t mind it. It made you explore and added to the game’s challenge. That’s my two cents. 🤷🏻♂️
My main issue with Tooie was how repetitive it all felt. I could have dealt with the backtracking and mini games, if most of said mini games didn't all feel similar to each other, and if there was more reward for said backtracking. In most cases, you're getting like, one jiggy for backtracking all the way to a small portion of a level, and almost every mini game is either an fps, or some variation of "score points", usually by shooting things....
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Usually I don't like backtracking but I love how the backtracking in tooie makes the world feel more alive and connected
SAME
Yeah, if you pardon a metaphor, the levels in Banjo-Kazooie feel much like disconnected island whereas Banjo-Tooie’s world feels like a fully-connected world.
Yes. This is how I feel too. It doesn't really bother me that much. I think it was a good design decision.
me too
Didn't you comment this in his dk 64 vid ?
My love for Tooie is a bit different - as a kid, I only had Banjo Kazooie, we had a tough time financially so we only had a couple of games. A family friend however did have Tooie, and to me (someone who had beaten Kazooie probably 100 times), it was this magical expansion with extra moves and new worlds that I got to play once in a blue moon.
I'll always love Banjo Kazooie, but Tooie for me was this elusive extra part of the game that only when I was a young adult I got to revisit for myself, and loved it.
Fr
This is exactly me - I played BK countless times as a kid and loved it. But I never got to play BT as a kid. The first time I played it was in my 30s and it was so much fun - it was big and difficult that it was challenging enough for me as an adult. I really loved it and was a pleasant suprise. BT is better than BK in the challenging aspect but BK is still the nostalgic #1.
I had the same story
Same boat as you sir
Sounds like you actually love your memories of the game, and not the game itself.
As someone who loves both games, Tooie always felt more adventurey to me, while Kazooie felt simpler and more compact. Both premises have their up and downs, and while it's true that Kazooie is more replayable because Tooie is more exhausting, I don't think this is necessarily a strike against Tooie, as it's the same situation bigger, more involved games find themselves in when you compare them to simpler less time-demanding ones. Like, I'm currently playing The Witcher 3 and while I'm enjoying it I can already tell you it's gonna be a long while until I decide to replay it again. On one hand, I find completing Mayahem Temple more satisfying, but on the other I know Mumbo's Mountain is a simpler endeavor that takes less time and probably will get more runs from me because of this. This extrapolates to the rest of both games as a whole.
Overall I think the levels in Kazooie are more memorable, but that doesn't mean Tooie doesn't have it's gems. Witchyworld is fun, Jolly Roger's Lagoon is one of the rare cases where the water level is my favorite stage in the series, Grunty Industries is kind of a Zelda dungeon in disguise that I happen to find extremely clever. Having said that, I really dislike Cloud Cuckooland. Way too much flying makes the level feel disjointed.
Now if you allow me to go on a tangent here, I've also seen Tooie being compared to DK64. Unlike Tooie, I DO find myself in the camp that considers DK64 to be weak (not necessarily BAD, but definitely worse than both Banjo games IMO), but my reasons have more to do with thematic integration. As I said, Tooie feels more adventurey, with levels that interact with each other giving the feeling of a cohesive world. DK64 would be in the same camp, but it's levels always felt fake to me, like a ton of the stuff you find has nothing to do with the level itself. It's full of generic barrel minigames that don't fit the theme of the levels, bullet switches, instrument switches that do different stuff just because, and while the Banjo games also have switches and pads that are only there so Banjo can use them (Grunty switches, fly/jump pads, the pads that allow you to separate both characters in Tooie), I always felt DK64 was much more egregious and immersion-breaking about it because it's CONSTANTLY throwing them at you. Not to mention the fact that the whole game revolves around collectables being arbitrarily able to be collected by only one Kong, which adds both to the backtracking AND to breaking the believability of the world. All of these things made DK64 feel more like a checklist. Tooie, while also having a checklist-like concept, manages to avoid this feeling IMO because of it's more cohesively designed levels, and feels more like an actual adventure. At least, that's how I personally feel.
I'm not going to talk about Yooka-Laylee because I haven't actually played it yet.
Perfect explanation. I usually give roughly the same explanation when I explain how I appreciated the vast, interconnected nature of Tooie when I was younger, and that it might not be everyone's cup of tea but it had a lot of wonderful moments, and I loved that Tooie's moveset was a perfect superset on Kazooie's, and how the bosses and minigames and more robust transformations always felt like welcome additions to the formula to me. Not for everyone if people really don't like backtracking or really want to speedrun their games, but it's by no means objectively bad, or not a worthwhile sequel.
I've actually never been able to go past World 2 of DK64 because I'm bored in anticipation of the backtracking to collect colored coins and bananas. It's just a brick wall I can't get past. I think one day I'll finish but I likely never will 100% it (maybe with the "Switch Kong Anytime" mod thingie ?).
Meanwhile, Tooie has a lot of stuff but it's meaningful. With its backtracking it tries making the world more cohesive and connected, and its bigger worlds actually try to do the same and make the levels make more sense and feel more lived in while also having more visually pleasing sight (at the price of less landmarks, more spaced between each other). Overall it makes the game feel, as you said, adventurey, which was really cool to me at the time. And I'm playing through it regularly to this day! :)
I'm in the category of those that prefer DK64, but simply because I love the swath of collectibles which BT lacks. This is a similar reason why BK is stronger than BT: The notes are individual instead of grouped.
@@noname-jt6kl You like games for the literal collectible count? Pretty sure BT has more *types* of things to collect than DK64 and BK. They probably grouped the notes in Tooie so that they could track which ones you collected, whereas in BK they had to do that bullshit "best note score" thing, which I assume was due to hardware limitations. But there's still tons of garbage to collect in every level if that's all you're playing for. The color-coded items in DK64 that you had to swap characters 5 times per area to collect just felt like tedious filler to me and I'm so glad they didn't do anything like that in either BK game.
@@loonybin7835 true, true. But BK has a higher number. Plus the hardware note thing is absolute bull since DK64 has more collectibles yet can save them all.
People say backtracking like they have never played a metroidvania before, since that's the sorta style it went for, getting new moves to do things in older levels. I played Banjo-Tooie first, and when I tried Banjo-Kazooie, it bored the heck outta me, there isn't anything to do in it. I respect it as a starting point, but Tooie feels like the better experience imo
Yeah but here’s the thing, if I’d wanted to play a metroidvania I’d go play a metroidvania. Banjo kazooie is a collectathon and should’ve stuck with that formula.
@@gus051Not being creative kills game industry. It was a good choice to make BT metroidvania-like
@@gus051 It is a collectathon, but with backtracking. Not sure why that's so bad. It makes for a more interesting challenge.
@@kommisar., it's bad because you are wasting too many time just walking from point A to B. In Kazooie you are doing something most of the time.
@@SergioLopez-yu4cu You mean like walking from point A to point B (in "Kazooie")? You do that in both games because both are platform games. Part of the fun IS getting from point A to point B. The difference is in "Tooie" there is a lot more emphasis on backtracking once you unlock certain areas or abilities. They made the worlds all connected and I find that to be an awesome addition. Are you just supposed to have all the items right in front of you as soon as you enter the world?
My thoughts on the three points why some people don't like Banjo-Tooie:
1.) I don't mind the backtracking. I actually like having a reason to go back to a previous world.
2.) I didn't have any issues with the mini-games. I liked most (if not all) of them.
3.) I liked that the worlds were bigger. It felt like there was a lot more to explore, and it didn't really feel empty either.
I can sort of understand the criticism, but it really just comes down to personal preference by the end of the day. I'm a fan of both games. Both really fun to play, and just overall a good time.
Thank you for the completely reasonable and thought out comment. I completely agree with you. I love Tooie, I was just exploring the reasons why some people find it annoying.
I sentence you to playing the Canary Rematch again and again until you change your mind!
@@benmidnightflame but that's completely optional, i can also say the same thing to you about collecting all the notes in rusty bucket bay.
Jokes on you, never had an issue with that, even with rubber band ai.
Thank you!
To me, the gameplay of Banjo Tooie was a pleasant experience
I was more disappointed about the pacing of the story
The start was very enjoyable to me; then, a vast middle part of nothingness took place and suddenly: the end 😀
I actually really enjoyed the backtracking in Banjo Tooie. I always thought it was cool how all the different worlds were connected, and i would have to figure out if each new move could help me get something i couldn't before.
I absolutely hate the backtracking. I played it on Xbox last year and thought with walk-through guides and TH-cam videos I'd be able to finally beat it. I was wrong.
There is just too much backtracking and the levels are so big. I got stuck on the grunty industries level and the walk-through guide and TH-cam videos don't really help with a lot of what needs to be done.
I might try again one day, but the backtracking just makes it un-fun for me. Banjo kazooie is far more fun to play.
@@jasonbenefield7892 you should only backtrack using the shortcuts and only after you have all the abilities, also you can get most things in grunties industries without backtracking, the level is just cryptic.
@@jasonbenefield7892 I loved the backtracking as it made for little fun side quests and a fun challenge. I can understand why you hated Grunty Industries. I got lost as hell on that level as well as Terradactyland because they're so big and things start to all look the same, but you just have to keep at it until you figure out where's what. (To a lesser extent I got lost on Hailfire Peaks too, even though it's separated by two completely different sides.) If you get stuck, just come back later after you've learned new abilities and have unlocked other things/triggered other events. One of the reasons why the game takes longer is not just the backtracking, but people trying to figure out if they are SUPPOSED to backtrack or if they can get that Jiggy right there. Again, I like this because it makes for a fun challenge. You can just leave the world and come back later after you've done everything else.
Always preferred Tooie, myself. I loved all the new abilities, how the worlds were interconnected, the awesome boss fights, the minigames, etc. It just felt like a much bigger game in every respect, and I never saw that as a bad thing.
Agreed. As much as you can say take advantage of the N64 vs being limited by it, Tooie felt like the kind of scale of game that really took advantage of the N64's power. It really delivered a huge mostly seamless adventure unlike almost anything seen on home consoles before, and I'd argue wouldn't really be emulated except by the Metroid Prime games or perhaps Dark Souls 1. When I played it as a kid, it was everything I wanted in a game. It was huge, it was adventurous, it had every kind of setting, it had tons to do. It was the first game I ever played that actually had a play experience that matched up with my young imagination in terms of what I wanted from a game; it was as big and bold as kid me could imagine. When compared with Kazooie, it looks like Tooie was the game they really wanted to make, especially if you look at some of the latter Kazooie stages like Freezeezy Peak, Mad Monster Mansion, and Click Clock Wood, which are huge levels with also numerous sub areas. Click Clock Wood in particular is an absolutely massive level with complex puzzles.
@@Mortablunt In hindsight, Click Clock Wood seems like a beta test for what they wanted to do with worlds in Banjo-Tooie, with having events in one world affecting another, i.e. fixing the toxic water problem in Jolly Roger's Lagoon or pushing George Ice Cube off a ledge so he cools water in Half-Fire Peaks. In that regard, I think the developers absolutely succeeded in making the game they dreamed of with Tooie.
I love the train system. Probably one of the earliest examples of fast travel.
I could never figure out how to get into Grunty Industries as a kid, until I found the train switch and tried to ride into the Grunty Industries train station
Imagine my surprise when little kid me figured out that's how you're supposed to do it!
@@dravenation8428 same dude.
I thought found the secret tunnel early but came to realize that's why you learned all the worlds are connected. That realization along with remembering that Grunty flat out says you ain't going in the regular way are the only hints. Which makes it sooo good as kid to see the cause and effect relationships from everything in this game.
@@Kspice9000 why oh why did we get a banjo racing game instead of banjo threeie
As a kid, it was amazing. The trial and error of figuring things out was so rewarding. No internet or youtube walkthroughs. Just hours upon hours spent with my sister exploring and figuring things out. One of my favorite games of all time.
Even using walk-throughs and cheato codes, I enjoyed the game so much 😃
While those points are valid, it still shows how much Rare would try their best improving a sequel. While I do agree that Grunty's Industries is the most tedious... It's the exploration, discovery and problem solving that what makes a great sequel. And as for the Minigames, I would have only counted the ones that reappear in multiplayer. While I do agree that there's a bit too much... consider this... Would Tooie look more like a Kazooie clone if they haven't expanded? The first game was nearly straightforward. The bosses, advanced moves and linking worlds were great mechanics.
I’m on your side I actually prefer Tooie over Kazooie, the point of the video was just to see if the complaints of people who disliked Tooie were legit or not. However even though they were legit, it doesn’t make Tooie a bad game.
@@pressaTD Yeah. And I for one am especially looking forward to when/if it comes to NSOEP as it's multiplayer will have more value than XBLA.
It's also perfect for speedrunning...that's why Kazooie hasn't been criticized for its relatively short length.
@@pressaTD Those arguments are not very sound when you think about it...because they're all occupational hazards of games when the developer is cramped for space in the storage medium. Speedrunners, are quite often the most critical of a platformers length in general. But irregardless, both of those games are awesome.
No way...Terrydactyl land was the most tedious. Definitely!
I think the main thing people get wrong when discussing the game is labelling it a "collectathon" and criticising it as if it is the same kind of game as the original one was, when in my opinion they couldn't be further apart despite having the same engine.
Banjo-Tooie is an adventure game where collecting happens, the fact there's less to collect in the game despite being bigger than Kazooie should be the biggest indicator of this, much more emphasis is put on the tasks you do themselves than the reward you get from them, its all about the journey, and the worlds, whereas Banjo-Kazooie was much more concerned about the items you was getting.
I don't understand the criticism that the worlds are empty or whatever because I actually think the worlds are much more lived in than Kazooie, these worlds feel like they could be actual places they're that fleshed out, and I find myself playing the game for longer sessions due to how immersive everything feels, the game just lets you breathe and take in the environments while you go at your own pace, it may take longer to complete than Kazooie but in my opinion you get way more out of it.
The minigames are the weakest aspect for me though, stuff like the Saucer of Peril are irritating to me, but the worst is easily Ordnance Storage in Glitter Gulch Mine, that one just sucks in my opinion. I actually don't mind Canary Mary but thats cuz i know the trick, which is by the way to abuse the rubberbanding and stay behind her until halfway through the race.
And the backtracking to me never really felt like backtracking cuz it all feels like one big world, and plus the game often gives you shortcuts back to prior worlds anyway, i'd argue that one instance of backtracking in the first game is far more egregious bc its such an outlier and feels so awkward.
Anyway I love Tooie, more than the first game which I still love, I wish it didnt get so much hate.
I can take or leave the minigames, but exploring the large, interconnected worlds are why I LOVE Tooie!
You ought to see how it looks in VR. Omg it’s amazing!
The amount of mini games isn't really the problem in Tooie for me, it's the uniqueness of the mini games. Most of them seem like the same games just recolored for different (like the soccer or the shooting games), whereas in Kazooie the mini games feel more unique throughout the levels.
I agree, most of Tooie's mini games were basically target practice against red, green & blue targets most of the time, also some of the mini games (such as the soccer ones) were played in three rounds which made them feel to repetitive
Kinda goes even further than that. Repetition was pretty clear, however repetition is made worse by a bad quality product. One particular mini game, the race against canary man, was just plain aids, and you have to do that one twice since it has a rematch. Which is extremely difficult the second time as it drags on waaaay too long for a game about mashing your buttons. When you fail, and you likely will. Just keep in mind sorta stacks ontop to playing even more when it isn't fun to begin with.
The first person minigames were all great though in spite of recycling them so often so repetition is more so an issue when repeating bad things.
@@benmidnightflame canary mary only shows up twice and you don't need the rewards to progress.
@@Ghorda9 I would wager most banjo fans like myself like to 100% games, and Canary Mary is a nightmare to the thought of me replaying this game. After all these games are dubbed collectathons~ And even those who aren't completionists, they don't necessarily know what they need to progress and there's no guarantee they won't have missed enough in other worlds that they do indeed need that jiggy.
@@benmidnightflame the second Canary Mary race is the only thing that has kept me from 100% on both games
The scale of Tooie isn't inherently a problem, the problem is they stuck to having only 10 Jiggies per level making a lot of the extra space in the levels feel unnecessary. Most of the Jiggies in Tooie are much more complicated and require more steps to obtain try and make use of the level size, but most of the time it just makes each Jiggy feel more tedious to get. If they had 15-20 Jiggies per level, but cut down on how complex they were to obtain people would probably not be complaining about the size of the worlds as much. Just look at Mario Odyssey, there are a lot of gigantic levels in that game, but nobody complains about the size of the levels because there's plenty of things to collect in them.
Yeah, really. The size of Banjo-Tooie's levels isn't necessarily the problem. It's how barren they are. There isn't enough stuff in them to justify their size. This is made even worse with things like how music notes, feathers, and eggs, come in nests, making there to be fewer items to collect by any measure (not to mention only 90 jiggies exist in the game).
@@Lugbzurg i feel like the grouped music notes and eggs were more of a hardware issue, as that many entities in maps that are already too big for the console would've pushed the hardware over the edge. No matter what you think about the game, i think everyone can agree it was too big for the N64 and should've either been moved to the GC or required the expansion pack.
That's exactly why I didn't wonna ay it because it creates an tedious chore and not make it fun to play. Games like the Sypro the Dragon Trilogy on the PS1 & Mario Odyssey does it well because they keep it well balanced while being too short nor overbloated with worlds & collectables, the pacing is much faster and most importantly, there alot of fun. If Tooie would've had that, I would've loved to play for as much as I wanted.
@@stopit6229 Now that you mention it, I wonder if that has anything to do with why the enemies in Banjo-Tooie are so basic and why they respawn, therefor not having to keep track of what enemies are present and which are gone. It all makes it so the console's RAM has fewer things to keep track of to compensate for the giant levels.
@@Lugbzurg perfect explanation. I wish they kept all the items spread out, as it's one of the reasons I l,ike BK and DK64 more, while still loving this one. It's so much preparation and running around for a small number of items, it really would've been better with more stuff. Apparently they didn't use the expansion pak in this game, so if they did they may have been able to expand it.
I like Banjo Tooie's bigger levels and really didn't mind the backtracking. It was neat how they found ways to interconnect the game's worlds to one another like a 3D Metroidvania and it made the game's setting feel more cohesive. Characters in Tooie actually move around the worlds and feel alive, while most of the ones in Kazooie, aside from Gobi returning in Click Clock Wood, felt like they existed in a bubble and were never mentioned again after their individual worlds. I will say Banjo Kazooie's shorter levels makes it more fun to speedrun, but I still believe Banjo Tooie is an all-around better game.
It is strange how disjoint the levels of Kazooie are. They are enjoyable, but it is baffling how one place connects the rest.
@@iantaakalla8180 well to be fair, you're accessing them through themed portals in a giant witch's lair shaped like her face.
Tooie is one of my favorite games ever.
To me, I think backtracking is a good thing. You see something you can't get, you progress, get a power, now you can go back and get that thing. It's a key part of a lot of video games - even in different genres.
To me, this is in the running for greatest of all time still. It still holds up to this day imo.
It’s one of the best adventure games of all time.
This probably also applies to Yooka-Laylee… a game I love but seems like I’m in the minority. This video helped me see why people may not like it, as Yooka-Laylee checks off these three boxes as well
Y-L's problem goes beyond this
Yooka Laylee had potential. But blew it on the last 3 worlds. Was really enjoying the first 2 worlds but beyond that lost the motion.
The problems I had with Yooka Laylee were 5 worlds only including the big expansions, tons of notes to collect in randomized areas, and once you enter a new area, the camera angle is formulaic.
@@dougxvale ah true. But out of all of it the first one was done well. Wasn't keen on the frozen castle.
I guarantee yooka Kaylee would be more well liked if it didn't use that hideous lighting engine. Is it a unity thing? I've seen so many unity games, decent ones too, with similar disgusting lighting
I love Grunty Industries. It’s my favourite world specifically because of how intricate and complex the level design is. I’d say the same for all of Tooie. Ya there’s backtracking but I think it’s a necessary evil for the payoff of such cool complex interconnected levels and objectives. I feel like people who prefer Kazooie or Tooie just comes down to preference of simple vs complex level design, I love them both to death, but it is true, Kazooie’s design is nice and simple clean straightforward, and Tooie’s is messy and complex all tangled and intricate and that’s exactly what I marvel in awe at when I play through it.
I'm with you on this, the more complex the better but without making it a hassle. That's why i like progressive music more than pop, in pop you know what to expect after hearing the first minute of a song but in prog there's always an element of surprise.
Banjoo tooie blew my mind many, many times. God, i love this game, it's my favorite game of all time
As a kid, I always felt super uncomfortable when heading towards grunty industries because I knew I wouldn't understand anything; how to get in there (super annoying and worst introduction of a level for kid me), where to go, what to do or how the levels within the building are linked to each other, felt super overstrained. I remember I only had fun in this level climbing the elevator rope and jump down from the top most point which seems to be the higest in the game haha. I didn't like this cold, industrial atmosphere and I didn't even find the way to the boss, didn't know there even was one. I really wanted to avoid this level. I replayed BT some years ago and still had this feeling and didn't really got into it, neither found the boss and didn't even look things up on the internet because I wasn't interested in it at all. My mindset changed a lot during the last years and this year I replayed the game again and now grunty industries and its boss is one of my favorite in the entire game because it's so complex and requires a lot of attention to understand how everything is linked, it really requires you to dive into the game if you want to finish it. The music of inside the building also became my favorite. It just matches perfectly, it has this subliminal dangerous industrial touch while at the same time sounding calm as if a clock is ticking, it makes you know from it that this level is smart, tricky and needs you to think and pay attention. Kind of like an interactive quiz show soundtrack that wants to make you brood over the tasks/ questions. Love it. It makes me really happy thinking about how they created this area, I think it's the most creative in the game :)
I honestly can't give the "more mini-games" as valid criticism because even with about twice as many per level, its still just a handful more than BK, which actually is just normal progression when you want to make your sequel bigger and better. I get the backtracking issues even if its something that makes sense for the worlds being interconnected. The worlds being too big is also something that depends on what you consider too big. I think some people mistake doing more for the worlds being too big. Like the only levels I think truly fall into "too big" are Jolly Roger's Lagoon and Grunty's Industries because of how they're structured
Actually, there are barely any in BK. Most of the ones he mentioned I wouldn't count, and even if I did the ones in Tooie are much longer with multiple rounds, making them even more tiring.
Tooie's minigames felt like they dragged on forever for some reason, and so many were shooters despite being an adventure platformer. Reminds me of how Conker suddenly turned into a FPS in the last 2.5 levels for no reason...
I've heard of the DK64 hate, but this is ridiculous. People hate this game for being too much, they hate Yooka Laylee for not being enough, and they hate Nuts and Bolts for being too different. So what do you want them to do? Keep remaking the same exact game every generation for eternity? Honestly, people need to grow up.
I agree
Personally, I love tooie, and I think it just does everything kazooie does, but better
@@Oscwal💯
Trying to dismiss criticism just leads to developers never learning from them. Downplaying valid criticsm just leads to a "don't think, just consume" mentality that's unhealthy for games in general.
The more common take is that you hear Tooie cited as something better in some regards and worse in other ways instead of these comical exaggerated "Tooie ruins everything Kazooie did well," or "Tooie is better than Kazooie in every way."
Frankly, it's not just one thing that can sum it up where the criticisms come from. The backtracking and world size might not feel too bad by themselves, but when the game is also much bigger, they can kinda add together and make it feel worse than it would otherwise (it's also very much worth remembering that because of its ambition and scope, Tooie ran quite poorly on the original N64, the not uncommon slowdown just kinda piling on to make the minigames and backtracking feel worse.)
The minigames thing isn't really all that out there either, writing off the disliking of minigames as "disliking more content," is a really reductive mindset when we've seen numerous sequels across different franchises be looked at by many as less enjoyable than the game that came prior to it because of the abundance of minigames and more gimmicky segments.
Crash Bandicoot and Spyro are the two most popular examples where the third games are very minigame and gimmick centric, which is reasonably controversial, especially when people enjoy the core gameplay of the games as much as they do. The core is still good in those games (as well as Tooie,) but it's interuppted more often.
In this same vein, Nuts & Bolts was controversial for a reason as well. It's not people "just wanting the same thing over and over again," it's the matter of the series being essentially on hiatus for over a decade and them essentially doing a complete genre switch when it comes back, it makes a lot of sense why Nuts and Bolts would be unpopular even though it wasn't a bad game in its own right. Had they released it as a spinoff alongside the mainline games, it probably would have been received better, but the fact that the franchise looked to be dead for an entire console generation and the one game fans got had very little of what made the first two games popular to begin with is extremely understandable.
*cough* Pokemon
@@Robbie_Haruna Tldr
I always felt that Tooie was indeed more of an adventure, and as I grew older and played more stuff, it now looks to me like a mix of a 3d collectathon and a Metroidvania (because levels are also connected in a few ways, not just because of backtracking).
Well said. if you look at the game as a Metroidvania, it totally makes sense. Now that you say that, I would LOVE a 2D side-scrolling Banjo Kazooie metroidvania action platformer game, lol.
As a kid I always wished the two games would be merged into one somehow, like if you could enter the rest of gruntilda's lair in tooie.
Funny you say that because I think they had the same idea with the mystery eggs and ice key. Never happened though
it's true that backtracking, mini games and big worlds are a bother for me in Tooie but I still loved it when I was a kid (and still do as an adult)
Totally agree with your conclusion. Back in the days, we only had a few games to play again again and again. We wanted bigger worlds to explore, more minigames variations and backtracking.
I remember the mysteries backtracking did and the conversations it made in the schoolyard sharing our discoveries.
I personally loved the backtracking, it made the worlds feel more connected, made the new abilities seem more valuable, and best of all got rid of musical notes resetting each time you returned to the world
Being able to complete a world in a single run was kinda boring and made the game feel too linear for my liking
You done goofed. There's more than one backtracking moment in Banjo Kazooie. What about the speed shoes in Bubblegloomp? Or needing to backtrack through the lair (can't open Clinker's Cavern without shock jump)
Or needing to backtrack to find Brentilda
Or backtracking to get Click Clock Wood's picture?
Banjo Tooie's my favorite game (and my TH-cam namesake), and while there are flaws, I still think it's a masterpiece. I feel like the interconnectivity of the worlds really helps keep parts of the thing relevant, but that's just me
I'm more so in the camp that it was just a standard sequel. There's flaws, lotta issues and valid criticism. But definitely enjoyable for those who loved the first(like me, my favourite 64 game). The Canary rematch minigame tho did lower my enjoyment quite a bit tho lol.
@@benmidnightflame Oh yeah fuck Canary Mary lmao
I recently went back to Banjo Kazooie on Xbox after probably 10 years without playing it, because I had the need for a simple minimalist chill game, but also something very well-designed.
B-K was perfect in that regard. It wasn't too long, too big, too simple or too complex. It had timeless charm and fit right in with any random 10-20 dollar indie adventure game you could find today, except with unbeatable quality.
When I headed over into Tooie a month later, it felt like it was taking too big of a bite. It had "2 syndrome". Everything needed to be "bigger, better, and more badass" after riding the success of the first, and it ended up being less timelessly charming and lived more in its moment.
Both are great games but Banjo Kazooie is far more replayable.
I 100% disagree. Tooie is so much more replayable with the amount of content that's in the game. No two runs will be the same. Kazooie has nothing new to experience if you go to play it again. I love Kazooie as it was my very first video game, but Tooie is such an improvement over the original and really got me to fall in love with gaming.
@@darkie1111 if you’re talking extra content then yes Tooie takes the win, but if you’re talking finishing the game 100% for me personally playing them both as a kid ive finished tooie maybe 3 times, whilst Kazooie ive lost count? Maybe 30 times ive completed 100%. it never gets old.
I would have liked in Tooie to be crystal jiggies just like the stars from Mario 64. You may have collected the golden jiggy already but you can go back and do the mission, jus sayin
for you maybe. I have finished Tooie far more times than Kazooie.
👎🏾
I prefer Banjo-Kazooie. Thought it was a more compact and classy game than Tooie. Just felt like it had more polish and actually looked better. It's seems RARE decided at some point just to make games bigger, much bigger with more area to cover. Same complaint with DK64. It's just work that's not fun. And yeah, Grunty's Industries was a horrible world. Just stress and hard work.
Honestly a questionable choice to count the oil drill Jiggy in hailfire peaks as backtracking - you're going through a room in the current world to a separate room in the previous world that's completely isolated from the rest of Grunty Industries and has nothing in it but a Jiggy. It doesn't really involve actually going 'back' anywhere you've been before, or traveling more than a dozen or so steps.
For real. Your not having to do full back track for it.
Just literally going into a window in a future level and then "what the fuck? That's how you in this room? Man this games a trip!"
also what about the beak buster attack you learn in freezeezy peak that you need to get a jiggy in gobi's valley?
@@tsvtsvtsv freezeasy peak actually comes first, the backtrack is using the running shoes for boggy's rematch.
And to make Mr. Vile not bullshit.
@@Saltyoven mr vile is fine, you don't even need the speed shoes for him, just get in his way and steal from him.
I love both games but I could write an essay on why Kazooie is better. Ultimately tho I think the biggest reason is just that I like Bottles a lot more than Jamjars
the jump from kazooie to tooie is similar to ocarina to majora. the games are both amazing but very different in how they're played.
My take: 1) Too much back tracking. I don't mind this if it's for a good reason and not some stupid move. I like the interconnectedness of say pushing the ice cube or draining the lake. (also see point 4). 2) Mini games. I like them in general, but some were just ridiculous and lazy. The mayan kickball and canary mary were just lazy and a chore to complete. 3) Worlds too big. Eh, maybe. I like the size and scale, I don't like when navigating them becomes more difficult. Perhaps a grayed out map that you can reference with areas that you've gone to would help. 4) Stupid abilities. The first game, I remember being excited to learn every new move. Flying, turbo trainers, invincibility, they were all exciting. What do we get here? A bunch of egg types that are only situationally useful and not helpful in defeating enemies? Lame. Hatch? What a joke. Rare lost their imaginations and started making chore based abilities vice actually fun and exciting stuff. I mean can you honestly say outside of glide and split up, you actually liked any abilities in the game?
Another thing about the mini games in BT is the fact that in order to get 100% you have to beat many of them multiple times, often with progressing difficulty, for a Cheato Page or other item. So while there are more mini games than in BK, you also spend way more time in each one as well.
Yes that’s a good point, I actually forgot to mention that. Doing the Saucer Challenge twice is a real pain.
@@pressaTD And Canary Mary. OH MAN WHYYYYY?!!
@@shmak952 You only need 70 jiggies to fight the Final boss. It's like Rare knew that had a hard time with consistency😜.
You never have to do a mini game twice for two different prizes unless it's the Canary Mary races. Usually mini games would have two prizes for two different high scores. If you get both high scores in one go, you get both prizes like in the saucer challenge. And not all of the challenges have two prizes.
I only really get the levels being too big thing in Terrydactyle Land, and I actually *like* the backtracking because it forces the game doesn't end up feeling so much like a checklist and you get to go back and revist old areas (I know you *can* do that in Kazooie, but there's no real incentive to). I agree with the too many minigames complain, and IMO most of the new moves are also way too contextual to be useful (with a handful of notable exceptions).
That said I do think Tooie is ultimately the stronger game. It's everything I loved about Kazooie but bigger and better, and just feels like the more fleshed-out world.
Banjo Tooie is basically an open worlded game, so there's backtracking involved because it forces exploration. You know, like all openworlded games... GTA, newer FF games, Fable, Morrowind, Demon Souls. That's a staple of most open worlded games...you can't speed run them. Banjo Kazooie is a speed runners paradise. 🏃♂️. Mini games in platformer games, are almost like side quests in rpgs. Ff13 was NOTORIOUS with them..but yet it's a speedrunners paradise. Newer gamers want every game to be speedrunner friendly = casual game
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Fast travel is just a design excuse, and a giant red flag of an open worls bring too big. You could possibly miss things if you don't take the time to walk back now and again.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Backtracking is in linear games as well....
I own both of these games, and I think I spent around an equal amount of time playing both growing up. But despite beating Kazooie, I never made it to the end of Tooie. And as an adult, I find Kazooie a lot easier to go back to thanks to how compact the levels are. That fact that only Freezeezy Peak asks me to come back later is nice, but ultimately a minor thing for me compared to the sheer size and complexity of Tooie's worlds. This aspect makes Tooie amazing to play once, but hard to enjoy again afterward. Whereas with Kazooie, it's an easier pick-up-and-play, making a revisit more inviting.
Many of the Tooie minigame use the same point-based red/blue/green layout that make them feel same-y. Witchyworld alone had like 5, and that would be fine as it is thematic to the amusement park theme. But most of the other levels have at least one which make it feel like Rare ran out of ideas and added a minigame as filler.
While they're 2 of my favorite games ever and I can't pick which one I like more, I feel like Tooie is a more unique, innovative game, and I've always been disappointed that the formula has never been expanded on.
It's like a 3D platformer/adventure/metroidvania yet also its own thing entirely. While the levels are all clearly their own unique, separate entities with distinct identities, they all interconnect in ways that blew my mind, and make its world feel that much more expansive and fully realized.
I understand the criticisms people have of Tooie, but I can't understand how you could love the first game and not love Tooie, even if you prefer the original.
My personal analysis would say that there's a second one for B-K in backtracking. But it's not REQUIRED. The Turbo Trainers are a huge help in Bubblegloop Swamp to beat Mr. Vile's mini-game. If you're good at the mini-game or are just super lucky, you may not need them. But I know I always did. Still, that's 2 vs 16. For me, personally, backtracking wasn't an issue for enjoying the game less. If anything, it made certain moves feel more necessary because they're needed outside of the worlds they'd expect you to have it and made the challenges feel a little more equal and it gave you more to do. I know they call that "padding the game out", but if it's done well (as I thought it was in Tooie), it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Mini-Games, eh, I can see the situation. But I give Witchyworld a pass because it is LITERALLY a theme park. Games are to be expected. Cloud Cuckooland also gets a pass from me because the place is supposed to be weird and those certainly count.
Third one, I do agree the worlds can be a bit too big, but the game sort of justified itself by what was in the levels. Some of them have to be though, like Terrydactyland being to spacious to allow for the Daddy T-Rex transformation. But it does beg the question, was that one really necessary? You use it to scare a caveman and... I think that's about it? (Been years since I played it). Jolly Roger Lagoon's Atlantis area doesn't feel too bad, after all you're basically in the ocean. And the Submarine form is pretty fast. Cloud Cuckooland needs a lot of space for all the various floating isles and such, so that can be understandable. Grunty Industries did a good job in feeling like a factory and multi-purpose depot. Sure, those things certainly feel less like B-K, but B-T was trying to make a point about being bigger. The purpose for their designs do lend themselves to being bigger scaled. This does mean more time needed to complete them, but that isn't in itself a bad thing. However, the average time in each world could be a bit more even, like you mentioned about Grunty Industries. Too much time in that place.
In the end, I think it just FEELS different when you play each of these games. Banjo-Kazooie feels very campy, bouncy, and had more vibrant colors. The worlds were simple and compact, almost like exhibits. Tooie took itself more seriously, the textures themselves seem more complex, there's a lot of running around and an underlying serious tone that really takes out the cartoony campiness of B-K. B-K also had added charm like having every item talk when you first collect them, lots of googly eyes everywhere, and the music certainly got you into the feel of the level. B-T is more muted in tones, complexity in puzzles went up, things are explained by Jam Jars pretty much solely and even things like the Get Jiggy animation were taken out (which makes getting them seem a little less celebratory to me). Even the concept of getting Jiggies in Tooie felt more like a gimmick just to play on nostalgia, as there wasn't any real point to making them Jiggies, except to remind you of B-K. Whereas in B-K, it made sense they were Jiggies because you were actively completing pictures by putting pieces (pieces you earned) into the picture frames. B-T made you complete pictures, but the Jiggies you collected weren't used to make the pictures, they just got you access to the jigsaw mini-game. So in B-K, the Jiggies just felt more purposeful by how the mechanic was executed. In B-T, you could replace the Jiggies with literally anything else and it'd still function the same.
TL;DR: Banjo-Kazooie is a game with simplicity in its design, making it an easy game to pick up and put down. It's also very happy. Banjo-Tooie is a game you really need to have time invested in it to get anywhere. Ergo, sometimes you can't make the commitment in the business of life for Tooie, which makes it tiring and possibly decrease replay value, on top of the aforementioned critiques.
Banjo tooie is my favorite game of all time. I grew up playing it and played through it again a year ago on my n64 and still love it till this day.
I love Tooie even more than Kazooie because of its adventurous feel and memorable plot. Plus, the music is top tier. Also, backtracking is technically not required in Tooie since you only need 70 jiggies to beat the game. Even if you do want to get all the jiggies, traveling between worlds and within them have become streamlined thanks to train stations/warp pads/silos/interconnected worlds. Just doing a complete sweep after going through everything once proved to be much less troublesome than backtracking multiple times throughout the game
In honesty, love both games but Tooie knocks it out of the park. Some just don't give it a chance or have the patience to understand that the game is more challenging, tougher, darker and more fleshed out than the first.
To me this is simply unbelievable, every single person my age I've met that have played both games always agree that Tooie is objectively the best one.
If anything, this is a list that proves why Tooie is the best, it's has way more content and challenges that actually make you stop and use your brain.
I can understand that backtracking is not everyone's cup of tea (personally, I love it), but my God... do people actually think that have more minigames and larger worlds is really a bad thing?
I love both but Kazooie is better imo
I love both games the same, but for starters who play tooie, it's very frustrating not knowing how to move in certain levels, because you can get lost easily
@@leelahff I understand that feeling, I too remember being lost for days and even MONTHS in the case of a particular jiggy, until I gave up and kept going but that feeling when you're on a level and learn something that you think could help you to get a jiggy from an earlier level is so satisfying IMO. The challenge is what made this game so fun.
Fun fact, it's because of this game I learned how to speak English, I did it in order to read the singposts and the dialogues to see if that could help to progress any further lol.
@@dogecoin9562 I too love both but after playing Tooie, Kazooi felt kind of empty or lacking IMO
@@agentepolaris4914 really? I think it's almost perfectly sized, there's always something to see or do in a level and none of them overstay their welcome
Sadly, I never had the pleasure of owning the first game, only the sequel
I loved Banjo-Tooie as a kid. I played it when I was 10, and again when I was 17. Both times I had the same problem. I could never easily find the same cave/door again. Especially in the later levels. A lot of the time playing was going in and out of doors hoping I picked the correct one. Banjo-Kazooie was much more compact, and it was always easy to remember where everything was. I even played it just a couple months ago for the first time in like 8 years. I'm hoping they release Tooie on NSO so I can replay it and see how I do this time around.
It's on NSO now!
Even though the criticisms are valid, I’d have to disagree on the idea that it makes Banjo-Tooie the lesser of the two N64 Banjo games. I’ve always seen it as equal, if not superior in some ways. The backtracking rarely ever took away from my enjoyment of the game. In fact, often times I’d actually consider it a blessing since it would give me time to plan and think about how I’d tackle another challenge for a jiggy or another collectible while doing the current collectible. Both games have something for everyone.
I used to agree with these arguments until I 100% finished both games and wanted to do it again after some time. Then, I found Banjo-Kazooie to be way too easy and short, while Banjo-Tooie, for the same 3 reasons you point out in the video, way more challenging and fun. Many years after 100% finishing both games a great deal of times, I honestly feel Banjo-Tooie is far superior.
It’s funny I had the exact same experience, I remember going back to Mumbo’s Mountain and I was like there’s just jiggys laying out in the opening wtf?
@@pressaTD Mumbo's Mountain is such a shame. I get it's the first world but not even Bob Omb Battlefield is THAT simple. Great video, by the way. Thanks for helping keep these amazing games alive.
I know it’s so true and I’m glad you enjoyed the video, I’m just happy there’s people out there who still care about these old games lol
Its an excellent tutorial world, it doesn't need to be complicated.
the reason why people hate the game is cuz they have zero patience and wanna get from point a to point b as fast as they can and its not a speedrun. the point of tooie having more of everything is cuz its a sequel and sequels tend to be bigger and have more to do. their reasons for hating the game aren't really valid, they are using their "hate" as a scapegoat to hide the fact that they just wanna beat the game quickly, they dont care for exploration or 100% the game, its complete the game with the required (in this case) jiggies. the haters should just stick to very short and linear games and shooters. side note: the backtracking has a tiny valid criticism but lots of games have backtracking and more of it than tooie hence valid criticism being tiny.
So banjo tooie has more reasons to go back to previous levels, more minigames, and longer playtime. Sounds good.
and bosses. Kazooie's bosses were big ol meh. Super easy.
All you proved is that rare succeeded. They too banjo and added a ton more to the gameplay on the same size cart. It was a great feat and all these complaints were selling features at the time.
This is a fun game, better than that disgrace of a game called Nuts and Bolts.
I love to back track to realize that everything was connected. World too big is bad ? Its like whining about a game having too much content. Yeah i loved this game and trying to beat it in 2-3 hours is definitely not the right way to play any games, IMO
Secondly, a few things on the backtracking are incorrect (sorta)
Mayhem Temple's pillars can be cheesed with some careful jumps. Basically double jump towards the pillar, then use the extra height of the ground pound to climb the pillars and nab it, no backtracking there necessary
Glitter Gulch's power shed can be ignored with fire eggs (or if the brightness is good enough, you can see the outlines of the planks)
Grunty Industries' toxic waste hop can be done without the pack. Simply jump into the toxic waste softly, then jump back out quickly, and repeat until you make it across (The game has a timer to where it damages you and chucks you back, if you beat the timer you can just hop and swim to the jiggy)
Sure the first one's difficult to do and the other two don't stop you from having to backtrack at least once in the respective world, it's just nice to get a bit more done before the inevitable backtracking
About the powershed thats that dark roon with the fire generator and the jiggy on an upper platform with the ladder i wanna say a backflip will work for getting up the ladder to that jiggy i think one time i accidently did that and managed to snag the jiggy pn the n64 version
Why is it that people hate my favorite Rare games, for all of the reasons that I love them??
Hate is a strong word, bro.
More than "too many minigames", I reckon Tooie uses mechanics that differ too much from the core gameplay. Such as First person shooting, football top down, etc.
Players may find themselves playing a different game way too often, conflicting with the experience they came to expect.
I love Tooie more for its new worlds and mini games and boss battles. It feels so much better to me than Kazooie and I love Kazooie. The backtracking can get tiresome but it’s kinda cool to go back into these worlds after it’s been so long
crazy to think when all of us first played this game when it came out in 2000 for N64 or 2009 on the XBOX version, once you are in Mayahem Temple there's secret access to the fifth world Terrydactyland. Talk about genius.
The backtracking is much simpler if you save all of it until you learn all the abilities after world 8 then go back and swoop up all the jiggies in previous worlds that required a specific move. Which is like 1-3 jiggies of backtracking per world.
I just don't get why people don't like tooie. It's my favorite out of the two original games. bigger worlds, more story, better connectivity between the areas and of course, my favorite banjo kazooie boss, mr. patch. Not only that, this is the game where banjo learns how to grab on to edges, and banjo can actually do stuff on his own. he can punch, he can use his backpack to carry stuff and npcs, and he can go invincible by hiding in his back pack! In the first game all he really did was walk around carrying kazooie and trying to diffuse all the hostility she caused.
In the opening sequence of the game following Bottles' death
Kazooie: Great! I get to peck some more witch butt! Let's go Banjo!
Banjo: Sigh... I'd a feeling its not going to be so easy this time...
Grunty laughs.
The game is great especially if you are an experienced gamer like myself and know where everything is and how to solve puzzles, backtrack, etc. If you play Tooie first over Kazooie and never played the actual first game, PLAY KAZOOIE FIRST to get a better sense of the gameplay and story. Sure Bottles' tutorials/old moves in Tooie is a nice refresher and is sort of helpful in Spiral Mountain, but it does not beat the commodity of the original.
I like Jamjars' moves over Bottles'
Very nice, personally, I don't mind backtracking or minigames. Loved to hear Mario RPG themes!
Dont get me wrong i still think that BK is the better game but there is one thing that many critiques ignore and its the fact that back then we used to play and replay the same games A LOT especially in the N64 era, we didnt have anywhere near the access of games that we have now so the backlog was not that big, so we saw the length, backtracking and size to be a good thing even if it was as ridiculous as it was in this game and DK 64, i understand the criticisms and they are valid but overall BT was a great sequel that complimented BK in the best way possible.
Banjo Tooie was amazing
Honestly, I have to agree with you. The backtracking is a pain in the ass. Some mini-games are good, but others... not so good. The Canary Mary rematch from Cloud Cuckooland and the shooting game from Grunty's Industries are the ones that I hate the most. Speaking of Grunty's Industries, I'm not a huge fan of this level, and neither Terrydactyland for the same reason.
Personally As far as mini mini games go. Just being more doesn't necessarily make "too many" valid.
If Tooie had a World Map and a Quest Log itd be an absolute 10 out of 10 masterpiece.
Tooie has always been my fave
I gave up with this game, because the levels are just way too large.
Two points:
A) Mr Vile encourages backtracking to face him with shoes
B) It's poor phrasing to say that Tooie's shown to be too big/too much in any particular category. You could use exactly the same statistics to "prove" that Kazooie is too small/too few/too little in the same categories. What the statistics actually show is that Tooie has a lot more backtracking, significantly more minigames, and levels that take longer to complete.
Encouraging isn't requiring, which this video was covering. I already mentioned in another comment how the Power Hut basement and Smuggler's Cavern jiggies shouldn't be considered backtracking as you don't actually have to visit future levels to obtain them (but they are suggested similar to Mr Vile), so it's good it wasn't included here.
What exactly is "poor" phrasing, is there some objective measurement one could point to? I prefer Tooie over Kazooie and disagree with the complaints, but hard to say that people giving their honest opinion is poor phrasing.
@@DeafeningCha The statistics show that Tooie has more of these things and Kazooie has less. Saying that Tooie has "too much" or that Kazooie has "too little" is a subjective interpretation, not an objective fact.
As for encouraged/required, the question there is how you interpret developer intent, and whether a possible-but-not-intended solution counts to make it not required.
@@rmsgrey Wouldn't that make all opinions poor phrasing then? Should people never voice their opinions about a game, or anything for that matter? Statistics don't mean anything to people unless they can make a comparison to something. People can't make decisions without opinions, so if deciding between BK or BT, it comes down to which of the statistics they prefer. If they have a preference at all, how else would they describe that preference without mentioning one of the stats as being "too" much/little/boring/old/lame/weird/etc for their liking?
@@DeafeningCha The video wasn't presented as a subjective "this is why I don't like Tooie", but as an objective measure of the game. And, yes, saying "it's too much X _for me_ " would be fine, but saying that the statistics show it's too much X is not. It's the difference between "I don't like this game" (factual statement about an opinion) and "This game is bad" (factual statement about an objective fact).
@@rmsgrey No, the video's main premise is to address why many people are saying the levels are too large for them, as _individuals_. The title of the video is "Why People Hate Banjo Tooie". Is "hate" an objective word? Seems like the video is primarily addressing subjective matter.
Also, saying "the game is bad" is not a factual statement.
Late to the party, but I just want to say that Tooie is fucking great
Okay sure, but all three of those metrics are objective. As a Super Metroid speedrunner, there’s no such thing as too much backtracking. The large worlds are honestly just good, I like them. And, in Kazooie, many of the jiggies were just lying around in the open. I liked how they made you earn it in Tooie
It is a difference in genres. People who like collectathons may not be a fan of Metroidvania elements.
@@Leopoldshark Granted, but I stand by my original statement. All three metrics are objective. Some like those things, others don't. I didn't mean to compare Banjo-Tooie to Super Metroid, I was simply giving a personal example proving that some people will like the backtracking.
Who said they hate this game? I f*cking love this game! I love it even better than the first game!
Tooie is actually my favorite of the 2 games. funny thing is, the reasons you said you didnt like the game are the reasons i like it
Tldr; worlds are big and boring, and everything in a world looks the same
This was a good video, it wasn’t a hate video and it considered all the factors in why it could be hated and validated them. Very open minded.
Tooie is one of my all-time favorite games. My best friend and I have such fond memories of playing through it at sleepovers. We loved the larger, interconnected worlds and how NPCs would traverse them as well. It made the entire game feel more open and connected instead of each world being in its own little bubble like Kazooie. Being only six at the time in the year 2000, the game felt massive to us. I loved the challenge of having to brainstorm and backtrack to get jiggies from previous worlds. With the one exception in Kazooie, you can go in a world once and take it to the cleaners if you were good, and then go onto the next. Repeat, then the game's over. It just felt more like a journey having to explore all over Isle O' Hags in circles instead of having it be so linear. They were fun to explore and the music is easy on the ears too. So it didn't really feel like a bore to me. When we finally got to Grunty, it was so satisfying because we had to grind forever to get there. Back when we had no cares in the world.
Oh to be young again...
For me personally, I just felt as though BT's massive scale came at the cost of the original's charm. BK just felt way more tailored, thought out and never overstayed its welcome (except for Click Clock Wood, maybe, which is subjective, but personally I think that only bolsters the point being made, since that world is spread out over 4 different stages, and climbing the tree again and again was just a nightmare). The rest of the game and its levels always felt like a small, recognisable world, and you always knew where to head if wanting to revisit parts of it, whereas BT's approach just felt so much more watered down and tedious.
I think the themes for most of the levels in Tooie were pretty crummy imo.
Temple, eh.
Mine, ew.
Creepy carnival place, super ew.
Lagoon water level, nice.
Dino land, YES!
Factory, EW!!!
Fire-Ice mountain, YES!
Crazy sky world, meh.
Banjo-Kazooie's worlds were a lot more fun to me:
Mountain, eh.
Beach, nice.
Cavern with giant shark robot, YESSSSSS!
Swamp with crocs and frogs, YESSSSS!
Ice level, nice.
Desert level, nice.
Monster mansion, YES!!
Nasty boat, no.
Seasonal giant tree (and you get to be a bee and actually fly around), ok!
I'm also sad that we got a dino form in Tooie, and it stunk! Even the baby croc from Kazooie ended up being better...
The complaint of Tooie being too massive, or indistinct always seemed to me like it came from people who never actually played the sequel. Tooie has a much greater attention to detail to making particular areas of levels more distinct and traversable.
For being distinct, the developers were so pedantic that they would use even lighting or even the colors of the fade in a loading zone to make an area more identifiable. More things, such as repeated textures instead being recolored, or entirely unique geometry and overall themes. One of the levels is literally a theme park, which each theme being entirely different in appearance and concept. Every method of fast travel even uses language-free, easily understandable icons before the name of the area it leads to.
On the note of fast travel, the game makes its' overworld and levels incredibly traversable. There are 3 separate, and entirely unique forms of fast travel; in multiple cases you can even fast travel to other fast travel points as a way to route your fast travel. On top of this, while scenes are sizable, the play areas are generally tinier in comparison. Once you've visited one of these areas, returning to them and starting or accomplishing your defacto task-at-hand takes seconds.
These criticisms of the game are issues that the developers went to great lengths to solve. While they didn't do a perfect job, it is overwhelmingly better than a lot of people make it out to be.
@@drahsid2 What..? Reviewers who played the game in full had that complaint to make. I spent hours on the game, and whilst I never completed it, I wouldn't have to even have spent half the amount of time playing it to tell you the worlds felt far too big. Of course it's entirely subjective, some people think bigger is automatically better, and whilst I agree that the developers went to lengths to make the traversal more approachable, the scope and size still didn't make for as tight-knit as the levels and overworld could've been, so much as it just consisted of... More distance to cover.
how is the Click Clock Wood theme one of the more ok ones?
its probably one of the most creative video game themes i've ever seen
3:26 Unless you're a god. Done it on the N64 and Xbox version and I would be more than happy to do it again.
I've never played these games as a kid, so I recently got to play them on the xbox s.
Absolutely loved Kazooie, couldn't handle not even the first hour of Tooei
Imo you're missing out on tooie. It has some of the most unique level designs of any game and there's a lot of new moves, transformations and mechanics that make it so fun. Maybe you felt burnt out after playing kazooie recently, give it a second try someday
Don't give up, BT is a fantastic game!
i feel that you need to play kazooie inorder to fully enjoy tootie, and i think the game was made that way
I went into playing this game blind without looking at reviews or people's opinions after playing kazooie about 10 years ago and having tooie in my backlog from rare replay.
The biggest gripe I have with the game is the backtracking to the point it becomes tedious and a nauseating chore for progression. Kazooie doesn't has some and doesn't do it to that degree.
Personally I liked BT more than BK. As young kids, it took me a while to finally beat BT, but the thing that made BK extremely tedious was the notes. The fact that you had to recollect all previously collected notes to increase your total by just 1 every time you exited the level was just absurd to me. Not having to recollect notes made BT so much more fun; every time I saw some notes, I got excited to collect them.
While there was an annoying amount of backtracking, it was nowhere near as much as DK 64.
Backtracking in Tooie was fine since each area felt like it was part of a huge world instead of levels linked by a hub world.
that's it. it the different areas didn't seem like levels or a checklist you run down to me, but like a huge world that wants and needs to be explored. I prefer this non-linear type, feels more realistic to me
0:57 the music and subject reminded me of the horrors of trying to find general white and backtracking to just find him snoozin at his house
I hated the game when I first played it. I replayed it recently and ended up loving it. Go as far to say most of it is better than the first,definitely a very good job of expanding on what the first game did.
I mean, I love those 3 Downsides you mentioned hahahaha, It's something I really like in videogames.
Furthermore, you could say the same things for The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild:
-The world is MASSIVE
-It is packed with minigames for every region
-There's a really good chance you will have to backtrack to every region to complete 100% in a first timer mindset.
So.. People who hate Banjo Tooie also hate BOTW? That's a question to think guys! 🤔
I haven't played BotW but from what I've seen, I wouldn't like it much. I also much preferred Kazooie to Tooie so make of that what you will. :)
I wouldn't mind the bigger worlds in Tooie if they actually had more things like music notes to fill out the space and guide the player (like if there are notes there you know you haven't explored it yet so you don't get lost as easily). I just feel like the problem isn't that the levels are too big, it's that they're big for no reason since there's nothing between points A and B in the worlds.
Well it's not like the first game was any better with collectable placement, I call BS that some areas only have like 3 notes to grab and I'm like srsly??!! Didn't bother me that much in Tooie, cuz yeah worlds were big but at east the notes were more in numbers in some areas, the first game is more empty than the second game.
The levels are too big is also a side effect that Tooie is harder to navigate primarily because the design of the kazooie levels all revolve around a central object while Tooie doesn’t have that
My thoughts on BT are that no, it wasn’t as good as BK. And the backtracking could be tedious at times; but it was also cool how the worlds were interconnected and it added a new element of puzzle solving. So I appreciated the change up to the normal collect-a-thon.
Also, great choice of music for this video, appreciate the paper Mario and SMRPG background music :)
Yeah, but you could have Dragon Kazooie in Tooie.
The levels just have too much open space. I feel like when I'm playing Banjo Tooie 90% of my time is spent just walking around. Witchyworld is my favourite level because its relatively small with lots of extra areas you visit then leave. Glitter gulch mine is the worst because eveything is so spread out and okay have to walk over the same places over and over again.
No they don’t, because it makes it feel like an organic world, and it makes it feel more explorable, even if its not actually… a billion chambers crammed into a level has its own drawbacks if the whole game is that, the final world of Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts, suffered this greatly where the only intended way to get into the different biomes was through the tubes, and it took a game that had been fantastically open world, some times genuinely too open, lacking enough enemies, and suddenly made it feel full of enemies and claustrophobic as hell
@@DragonstarFighterbuddy people don't play 3d platformers for immersion
Imagine Tiptup's Sons' spinoff where he needs Atreus' protection from an undead plumber that likes to stomp turtles
I really like Banjo-Tooie, but I don't bother going for 100% unlike with Banjo-Kazooie.
its because of the Canary Mary cloud race right? 89/90 jiggies is like an A+ if you ask me
@@dougxvale Rare said they wanted to make Cauldron Keep an actual world with 10 jiggles🧩, but it had to be cut due to time constraints.⏲
@@orangeslash1667 that would have been awesome!
Banjo tooie needed a quest tracker fr.
You fail to highlight one other, more subtle reason why people would look back less fondly on this game: We're older now. Some of us look back and still enjoy it as much as we did when it came out, but the rest would come back and we just don't have the time to invest in such a massive undertaking, what with adult responsibilities and all. Compare that to when we were much more excitable kids who had energy to spare and were dying to come home from school so we could play the game and see what was hiding around the next corner.
This shift from childhood to adulthood while both games remain exactly the same now as they were 20 years ago puts Kazooie in an advantage: Its big enough to get that sense of adventure but its also grounded enough that we can sink an hour (maybe two for Click Clock Wood) and feel accomplished whereas Tooie would overwhelm us in an activity we engage to unwind when we aren't the same eager children with time to spare anymore.
This also would mean that at that younger, more energetic age, we would see Kazooie as inferior and Tooie as superior since the former can't keep up with us while Tooie always has something new to wow us. Come adulthood and we can't keep up with Tooie as well and appreciate Kazooie for dialing things down enough for us.
Edit: Full disclosure here- I am in the Tooie is better camp; I am merely trying to be objective and understanding about this point.
That's basically why I prefer Kazooie. I played it on release. I didn't get to play Tooie until the XBLA version and I was a lot older by then so I saw the game through very different eyes.
The early levels are great, the later levels can definitely get a bit rough. I like this game more than Kazooie, but I definitely get why people don’t like it as much.
It’s better than Nuts and Bolts need I remind you of JonTron’s experience with the game?
Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts- oh, no
*_OOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHH, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO_*
@@derekrequiem4359 The reason why Nuts and Bolts exists is because Rare completely run out of ideas for Banjo, and wanted to make a game based on Lego's.
I personally always loved Tooie for implementing different ammo types, I never had any issues with how big the worlds were, it always made me excited when I found or figured out something new.
Damn, this video really ruffled Tooie fans' feathers huh?
By the way, a better method of comparing world sizes would have been ripping level models from both games comparing physical space.
I guess the category should have been called levels are too long. I was more measuring how long a level took to complete over how physically big it is. For example Grunty Industries physically isn’t a huge level, but its the longest in the game because of all the backing tracking you have to do in it.
1. I don’t mind the backtracking. I find it adds to the challenge of the game. Even as an 11-year-old, I was able to figure out when I couldn’t complete a level in its entirety because I didn’t learn a certain move yet.
2. Personally, I liked all the mini-games, however, I can understand why people feel differently, given that many of them are repetitive.
3. Honestly, in my opinion, the only levels in BT I find “too big” are Terrydactyland and Grunty Industries. But again, I didn’t mind it. It made you explore and added to the game’s challenge.
That’s my two cents. 🤷🏻♂️
My main issue with Tooie was how repetitive it all felt. I could have dealt with the backtracking and mini games, if most of said mini games didn't all feel similar to each other, and if there was more reward for said backtracking. In most cases, you're getting like, one jiggy for backtracking all the way to a small portion of a level, and almost every mini game is either an fps, or some variation of "score points", usually by shooting things....