From going back and watching some of my favourite stories from the Pertwee era, it recently occurred to me that the show never has any cliffhangers anymore. So there’s no reason to tune in next week to see what happens. I think having some proper episodic multi part stories is the way forward.
Superb show, beautiful and eloquent discussion from all the panel. 👏👏👏👏👏 You had me glued to the screen, many thoughts and memories in my head. Deadly Assassin racing in my head particularly. I was in my early teens watching not knowing of the past history concerning Timelords, only the odd blip from Pertwee. What a story. Many thanks to you All. ❤
I think there was more than friendship between The Doctor and Romana no.2 but is was like a couple where romantic notions were sourced from their shared intellect, intelligence and shared sense of adventure. They admired each other immensely and the offscreen real life relationship they were going through certainly came through on the program itself. Whether it is casually poling down the river at Cambridge or Oxford (sorry I can't remember), chatting and bouncing about Paris or enthusiastically feeding of each other's nuances, there was something there. And being two Timelords it was great. I have no issue with that at all. If modern DW was reality the Doctor would (and should) be jailed for grooming and falling into love with or sexual attraction to young girls and have always thought that was wrong. Maybe I am biased against Tennant these days due to his preaching but the ten and Rose romance became sickening at times such as when they were becoming smug in Tooth and Claw or he and Rose talking about the oddity of living together (The Satan Pit). Thinking back to the very first episode here is an ancient alien more than a few centuries old trying to tempt a teenage girl to go on trips with him, even at the expense of her boyfriend - that is actually bordering on abuse. What do we teach kids at school - don’t ever go into a car with a stranger! That stuff imo has already dated very badly and I today find much of the excesses of Tennant's Doctor actually very annoying and ingratiating at times. Everyone screams how much Tennant is their Doctor, especially I noticed casual viewers, and I can see why at the time, but now I look back and think what a self-pitying jerk he could be.
A well informed and entertaining Discussion.Great stuff.The biggest problem is the sexualisation of the Doctor.I never liked the Tennant/Rose love story as the Doctor works best as that unknowable alien who loves his friends platonically and completely: it upset the balance of the show and its broad appeal as here was a character that every child could look up to without that baggage of sex or jealousy.Eccleston nailed it as did Peter Capaldi and Tom best: an avuncular and wholly committed eccentric who wants the best for and of those who travel with him and challenges them to be their best self.By all means have companions of all sexual preferences-as in life- but the Doctor is not troubled or preoccupied with sex. Making the character female in the poisonous environment of identity Politics was a disastrous decision : the aim wasn’t equality of representation but superiority which shortsightedly disparaged “white” and “male” (Doctors and audience alike) at the hands of an untalented Chibnall(“I’ve had an upgrade”).RTD 2 has tripled down on this and added the poison of trans politics. All this in a show and a character famous for its inclusiveness and tolerance and welcome to the people at the back of the room. The Doctor had never defined people by their sex but by their character, qualities, capacity for compassion and decency.
The Doctor was smart - very. The academy scores and results that Romana no 1 use to teace him about was more about the fact that the Doctor wouldn't give a stuff about exams. His intelligence is beyond exam results. I can imagine if it had been Tom's Doctor, sitting back eating jellybabies thinking I'm not bothering with this stupid exam, whilst Romana is taking t very seriously and applying hersel with huge discpline and ambition.
In terms of potential harm to Doctor Who, the Timeless Child (damage to canon), and the sexualisation of the Doctor (damage to the character) are, by far, the worst culprits. The thing is, however, I don't think that either has ever had the capacity to seriously undermine the show. Prior to the TV movie, the nature of the Doctor was solidly established over three decades. Hence, any later (and lesser) scribes, all of whom have, to some extent, sought notoriety by dint of 'rewriting' and 'reinventing', have actually done nothing more than highlight their own inadequacy, in the harsh glare of predecessors' earnest, painstaking efforts. Those thirty three years have given the Doctor's character, and the show's canon, an elastic limit, beyond which deformation is no longer viable. How many of us truly believe that the Doctor was half human? That the first incarnation of the Doctor was a young girl? That the Doctor could have a sexual relationship with his companions' daughter? That he would ever be gyrating in front of would-be suitors? The fan majority have always known what lies outside of reasonable, and, when necessary, collectively act to reject it. Many thanks, Brendan and all, for these inspiring debates. All the best for now. Paul.
It was weird seeing Cinnamon go "yes, that kiss from Amy did it" - I'd agree with Moffats own assessment of that scene in that it didn't serve Amy well *but* having the Doctor shocked by what was happening, saying this isn't appropriate and then taking her back to her boyfriend - to me that was a positive change. I liked that dynamic, the Doctor didn't want to be with Amy - but he also craved her admiration. That dynamic for me worked really well and touched on the Doctor companion relationship in a way that was interesting. I definitely don't think the Doctor is beyond that, even in Classic Who there's a few hints of it, and there's nothing to suggest the timelords are beyond it beyond the expanded universe. It's just a bit creepy with an 18 year old. River, the closest to a living timelord at the time, that worked. There's no point removing an emotional point from a character - but it should be rare and unique so that when it's used it carries weight. I'm fine with it being a part of the character, it just shouldn't be a core driver - it should be as rare as you'd expect for a being that lives for hundreds of years.
The third Doctor is in an emotionally vulnerable place when Jo arrives on the scene. The reality of his exile has sunk in, he's working for someone whose methods he disagrees with (the Silurians), and the get-out-of-jail card with the TARDIS won't work as he has experienced in Inferno. If Earth dies, so will he. To make matters worse, along comes the Master who has all the advantages he now lacks and is a more personal enemy than the likes of the Daleks ever were. He is in the mood to bond emotionally with Jo who looks up to him in a way Liz never did. Once his exile is lifted, and the Master disappears from the scene, he is less apt to emotionally bond with Sarah until he regenerates.
I hate the sexualisation of the Doctor. Why would an alien who’s hundreds or thousands of years old be interested in getting off with a 19 year old Earth girl? He’s not only a different species but on a superior level mentally. The character needs to be a mystery rather than be dragged down to a human level. It also turns the show into more of a soap opera. I remember as a child the thing I loved about the Doctor was he didn’t behave in too human a way. He was the outsider who wasn’t domesticated. He’s an eccentric rebel and that’s more exciting for a child to watch rather than some banal twerking flirtatious vain type who just fits in with human behaviour. I think the timeless children was an attempt to bring the mystery back to the Doctor but I feel it was way too specific and it could have been about the original inhabitants of Gallifrey rather than the Doctor. Great discussion.
Michelle is spot on. Matthew Waterhouse really was one lucky guy. He couldn't act, his written character was horrid but because he was killed off and for once seemed very empathatic towards others tha himself, the actor and character have been reappraised more highly - although really that shouldn't be the case; we're all suckers for a soap opera now and then. RTD/Moffatt meets James Bond in the movie Live and Never Let Die. Colin Baker should apologise to Peter Davison as should anyone else who deliberately played the anti-card against him. DW has had excellent role models for women with Roman, River Song, Martha, Donna, Liz Shaw, Zoe etc... How many good role models were there after Capaldi's departure where the male figure wasn't some kind of cape crusader or mighty being. I think Peter's point was fair. Why does the PC brigade get to choose who is underrepresented and who isn't and how do they base their judgements? Also, as teacher of young children I KNOW that male teachers in the early years particularly are very important. Many of the children I taught had either no father figure presence in their life and many had terrible fathers. These kids delighted in having me teach them as stronger connections were established. Some would counter I am speaking sexist tripe, but I am not. I have experienced this for over 25 years, and it is usually a blessing for the kids. No work force should be only female, and no workforce should be only men. But so many want to think the former not to be true. Peter knew otherwise.
True but it’s not unusual for women to use their wits rather than try to use brute force like male heroes do. That is why the Male Doctor is a different role model for boys. Here was male character that didn’t strike first and answer questions later. He out thought his opponents rather that physically beat them.
I applied when I was 17, when Tom Baker was being replaced, and the BBC sent me a very nice letter turning me down. I'm enormously flattered you think so. Hugh x
I remember one of the production team (I think it was Philip Hinchcliffe) saying that they loved it when Mary Whitehouse would complain loudly, because every time she did the ratings would shoot up. So, Mary simply got more kids watching. Looking at her today on TH-cam etc... what a stuffy old battleaxe she was.
Yes the sexualisation of the Doctor is a miss step for me. Coming back in 2005 was a wonderful moment for us older fans, a yippee for it'sfuture. To go down the 'love path' for his character now looking back from the future, far too Soap like, boring and of little interest to me. Maybe my time has gone, this is what they want, the viewing figures say not. Try a Doctor/companion/ mates relationship out in Space, it my be a revelation. 😊
@@noblerees1 Yes it was a start sort of, still don't mind the film and the kiss was a thank you of sorts, this 2005 road on has changed it irreparably. 😥
I’m very glad that Jodie was androgynous and didn’t play on feminine wiles. She’s been a man for thousands of years so why should she? It’s just a case of boiling people’s identity down to body parts. There is no reason why she’d have a different personality.
The whole Timeless Child thing didn't bother me at all, and I can't stand about 99.9% of ChibWho. It brought mystery back to the character. Maybe it was the wrong mystery.
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From going back and watching some of my favourite stories from the Pertwee era, it recently occurred to me that the show never has any cliffhangers anymore. So there’s no reason to tune in next week to see what happens. I think having some proper episodic multi part stories is the way forward.
That is fundamental
I feel
Superb show, beautiful and eloquent discussion from all the panel. 👏👏👏👏👏 You had me glued to the screen, many thoughts and memories in my head. Deadly Assassin racing in my head particularly. I was in my early teens watching not knowing of the past history concerning Timelords, only the odd blip from Pertwee. What a story. Many thanks to you All. ❤
That’s very kind of you. We need to do a few more discussions like this - wide ranging and nostalgic
The biregeneration is by far the worst decision ever made in Doctor Who. It makes a mockery of the entire concept, which is basically a death.
It makes no sense to me
great discussion
Thank you
I think there was more than friendship between The Doctor and Romana no.2 but is was like a couple where romantic notions were sourced from their shared intellect, intelligence and shared sense of adventure. They admired each other immensely and the offscreen real life relationship they were going through certainly came through on the program itself. Whether it is casually poling down the river at Cambridge or Oxford (sorry I can't remember), chatting and bouncing about Paris or enthusiastically feeding of each other's nuances, there was something there. And being two Timelords it was great. I have no issue with that at all.
If modern DW was reality the Doctor would (and should) be jailed for grooming and falling into love with or sexual attraction to young girls and have always thought that was wrong. Maybe I am biased against Tennant these days due to his preaching but the ten and Rose romance became sickening at times such as when they were becoming smug in Tooth and Claw or he and Rose talking about the oddity of living together (The Satan Pit). Thinking back to the very first episode here is an ancient alien more than a few centuries old trying to tempt a teenage girl to go on trips with him, even at the expense of her boyfriend - that is actually bordering on abuse. What do we teach kids at school - don’t ever go into a car with a stranger! That stuff imo has already dated very badly and I today find much of the excesses of Tennant's Doctor actually very annoying and ingratiating at times. Everyone screams how much Tennant is their Doctor, especially I noticed casual viewers, and I can see why at the time, but now I look back and think what a self-pitying jerk he could be.
I killed Adric and I told no one... OK, I recorded the studio output but I didn't even think about spilling the beans!
Don’t mention that younger me looks like him
I always found the relationships with human women and vampires very inappropriate, like in Buffy and Twilight. The Doctor is no different.
A well informed and entertaining Discussion.Great stuff.The biggest problem is the sexualisation of the Doctor.I never liked the Tennant/Rose love story as the Doctor works best as that unknowable alien who loves his friends platonically and completely: it upset the balance of the show and its broad appeal as here was a character that every child could look up to without that baggage of sex or jealousy.Eccleston nailed it as did Peter Capaldi and Tom best: an avuncular and wholly committed eccentric who wants the best for and of those who travel with him and challenges them to be their best self.By all means have companions of all sexual preferences-as in life- but the Doctor is not troubled or preoccupied with sex.
Making the character female in the poisonous environment of identity Politics was a disastrous decision : the aim wasn’t equality of representation but superiority which shortsightedly disparaged “white” and “male” (Doctors and audience alike) at the hands of an untalented Chibnall(“I’ve had an upgrade”).RTD 2 has tripled down on this and added the poison of trans politics.
All this in a show and a character famous for its inclusiveness and tolerance and welcome to the people at the back of the room.
The Doctor had never defined people by their sex but by their character, qualities, capacity for compassion and decency.
With complete honesty I have never actually met someone who likes the Timelss Child - then again I don''t hang about with teenagers.
The sexualisation of the TARDIS? I have never really thought about how she feels...
Yes I mis worded that lol
The Doctor was smart - very. The academy scores and results that Romana no 1 use to teace him about was more about the fact that the Doctor wouldn't give a stuff about exams. His intelligence is beyond exam results. I can imagine if it had been Tom's Doctor, sitting back eating jellybabies thinking I'm not bothering with this stupid exam, whilst Romana is taking t very seriously and applying hersel with huge discpline and ambition.
Why doesn't RTD understand the simple premise that just because something is possible does not make it a good idea to incorporate ot implement?
Absolutely the sexualisation of the Doctor, at its worst in Rogue. Closely followed by The Timeless Child and female Doctors.
Spot on
In terms of potential harm to Doctor Who, the Timeless Child (damage to canon), and the sexualisation of the Doctor (damage to the character) are, by far, the worst culprits. The thing is, however, I don't think that either has ever had the capacity to seriously undermine the show.
Prior to the TV movie, the nature of the Doctor was solidly established over three decades. Hence, any later (and lesser) scribes, all of whom have, to some extent, sought notoriety by dint of 'rewriting' and 'reinventing', have actually done nothing more than highlight their own inadequacy, in the harsh glare of predecessors' earnest, painstaking efforts.
Those thirty three years have given the Doctor's character, and the show's canon, an elastic limit, beyond which deformation is no longer viable. How many of us truly believe that the Doctor was half human? That the first incarnation of the Doctor was a young girl? That the Doctor could have a sexual relationship with his companions' daughter? That he would ever be gyrating in front of would-be suitors?
The fan majority have always known what lies outside of reasonable, and, when necessary, collectively act to reject it.
Many thanks, Brendan and all, for these inspiring debates.
All the best for now.
Paul.
It was weird seeing Cinnamon go "yes, that kiss from Amy did it" - I'd agree with Moffats own assessment of that scene in that it didn't serve Amy well *but* having the Doctor shocked by what was happening, saying this isn't appropriate and then taking her back to her boyfriend - to me that was a positive change.
I liked that dynamic, the Doctor didn't want to be with Amy - but he also craved her admiration. That dynamic for me worked really well and touched on the Doctor companion relationship in a way that was interesting.
I definitely don't think the Doctor is beyond that, even in Classic Who there's a few hints of it, and there's nothing to suggest the timelords are beyond it beyond the expanded universe. It's just a bit creepy with an 18 year old. River, the closest to a living timelord at the time, that worked. There's no point removing an emotional point from a character - but it should be rare and unique so that when it's used it carries weight.
I'm fine with it being a part of the character, it just shouldn't be a core driver - it should be as rare as you'd expect for a being that lives for hundreds of years.
I think Rogue went to all sorts of wrong places and killed the franchise stone dead.
The third Doctor is in an emotionally vulnerable place when Jo arrives on the scene. The reality of his exile has sunk in, he's working for someone whose methods he disagrees with (the Silurians), and the get-out-of-jail card with the TARDIS won't work as he has experienced in Inferno. If Earth dies, so will he. To make matters worse, along comes the Master who has all the advantages he now lacks and is a more personal enemy than the likes of the Daleks ever were. He is in the mood to bond emotionally with Jo who looks up to him in a way Liz never did. Once his exile is lifted, and the Master disappears from the scene, he is less apt to emotionally bond with Sarah until he regenerates.
I hate the sexualisation of the Doctor. Why would an alien who’s hundreds or thousands of years old be interested in getting off with a 19 year old Earth girl? He’s not only a different species but on a superior level mentally. The character needs to be a mystery rather than be dragged down to a human level. It also turns the show into more of a soap opera. I remember as a child the thing I loved about the Doctor was he didn’t behave in too human a way. He was the outsider who wasn’t domesticated. He’s an eccentric rebel and that’s more exciting for a child to watch rather than some banal twerking flirtatious vain type who just fits in with human behaviour. I think the timeless children was an attempt to bring the mystery back to the Doctor but I feel it was way too specific and it could have been about the original inhabitants of Gallifrey rather than the Doctor. Great discussion.
Totally agree with you. Such an old alien interested in a young human is almost problematic
Michelle is spot on. Matthew Waterhouse really was one lucky guy. He couldn't act, his written character was horrid but because he was killed off and for once seemed very empathatic towards others tha himself, the actor and character have been reappraised more highly - although really that shouldn't be the case; we're all suckers for a soap opera now and then.
RTD/Moffatt meets James Bond in the movie Live and Never Let Die.
Colin Baker should apologise to Peter Davison as should anyone else who deliberately played the anti-card against him. DW has had excellent role models for women with Roman, River Song, Martha, Donna, Liz Shaw, Zoe etc... How many good role models were there after Capaldi's departure where the male figure wasn't some kind of cape crusader or mighty being. I think Peter's point was fair. Why does the PC brigade get to choose who is underrepresented and who isn't and how do they base their judgements? Also, as teacher of young children I KNOW that male teachers in the early years particularly are very important. Many of the children I taught had either no father figure presence in their life and many had terrible fathers. These kids delighted in having me teach them as stronger connections were established. Some would counter I am speaking sexist tripe, but I am not. I have experienced this for over 25 years, and it is usually a blessing for the kids. No work force should be only female, and no workforce should be only men. But so many want to think the former not to be true. Peter knew otherwise.
There is absolutely no reason why a woman can’t be a role model to boys. Girls frequently have male role models. It should go both ways.
True but it’s not unusual for women to use their wits rather than try to use brute force like male heroes do. That is why the Male Doctor is a different role model for boys. Here was male character that didn’t strike first and answer questions later. He out thought his opponents rather that physically beat them.
Do the panelists agree with me that Hugh could make a great Doctor?
Yes I can see that
I applied when I was 17, when Tom Baker was being replaced, and the BBC sent me a very nice letter turning me down. I'm enormously flattered you think so.
Hugh x
@@NearlySane101 What a shame. As Maxwell Smart would say 'missed by that much.'
I remember one of the production team (I think it was Philip Hinchcliffe) saying that they loved it when Mary Whitehouse would complain loudly, because every time she did the ratings would shoot up. So, Mary simply got more kids watching. Looking at her today on TH-cam etc... what a stuffy old battleaxe she was.
Yes I think that’s right
Yes the sexualisation of the Doctor is a miss step for me. Coming back in 2005 was a wonderful moment for us older fans, a yippee for it'sfuture. To go down the 'love path' for his character now looking back from the future, far too Soap like, boring and of little interest to me. Maybe my time has gone, this is what they want, the viewing figures say not. Try a Doctor/companion/ mates relationship out in Space, it my be a revelation. 😊
@@peterharrington7523 I agree. Missy and River are the exceptions
The doctor never had any relationships up to 1996 then people think they know better - they don’t
@@noblerees1 Yes it was a start sort of, still don't mind the film and the kiss was a thank you of sorts, this 2005 road on has changed it irreparably. 😥
I’m very glad that Jodie was androgynous and didn’t play on feminine wiles. She’s been a man for thousands of years so why should she? It’s just a case of boiling people’s identity down to body parts. There is no reason why she’d have a different personality.
The whole Timeless Child thing didn't bother me at all, and I can't stand about 99.9% of ChibWho. It brought mystery back to the character. Maybe it was the wrong mystery.
I agree the show should keep evolving and trying things but an origin story was unnecessary for a show called dr WHO
I could be wrong about this but I starting to think John thinks Chibnall is a hack 🤔