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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
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Curtomatic ( / @curtomatic )
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Zelda discourse has sucked ever since the launch of Tears of the Kingdom. There's no doubt that Breath of the Wild had its own drama (such as moving too far away from the formula established by Ocarina of Time) but BotW was generally a well-liked game with lots of interesting things to talk about. However with TotK, seemingly no conversation can be had that isn't hyperfixated on complaining about the story, and the lore, and how Aonuma has abandoned it! Every conversation leads itself to the same topic, regardless of if you start off talking about Zelda's transformation, or the Ancient Cistern temple in Skyward Sword, the conversation will eventually transform into a conversation about the lore!
Zelda discourse doesn't suck! HOW DARE YOU SAY SOMETHING I DISAGREE WITH! TEARS OF THE KINGDOM HAS A BAD STORY! REEEEE!!!
*how dare you disagree with meeeeee!*
If my arch nemesis doesn't hate me, I'm doing something wrong!
Beautiful
REEEEEEE!!!!
@@NayruYTlol
this video turned me into a lobster, something went wrong
Lobstonization!
You’re right. It’s true, it just keeps happening and it’s very bothersome. Definitely one of the things that bothers me is how the ultra hand stuff is written off so quickly because people optimized the fun out of it. So much of my time was spent just mucking about with the devices to make stuff and everyone just talks about skipping over everything with the one hoverbike. It is remarkable how so many just decide that their primary puzzle solving tools aren’t worth using when a common critique was cool dungeon items having limited use cases.
But no, we gotta be crabs instead.
Very well said!
Agreed! Tears of the Kingdom is the kind of game where you may not necessarily have fun just doing the first thing that comes to mind every single time. Ultrahand was designed to encourage players to solve problems in a bunch of epic ways using their creativity, and way too many people are only looking at it through the lens of convenience. If you're the kind of person that likes figuring out the different puzzles in front of you as they are, of course you're not gonna have fun bypassing all of it with a Hoverbike or Rocket Shield every single time. You could argue that it's bad game design to give you these options in the first place, but plenty of people do really enjoy finding crazy alternatives to puzzles, and what Ultrahand did is make those solutions more accessible to people that aren't the most dedicated group of gamers. It feels so dumb to me to be like "man, I could have so much fun doing this puzzle normally, but the game just lets me attach a Steering Stick and two Fans together so that's what I have to do".
@@speedude0164 The fact that the option is there in the first place minimises the substance and depth of the dungeons puzzles and structure. It makes it feel less special, spectacular and satisfying. That's how I see it. Too much freedom is never good.
@@speedude0164 Because Ultrahand DOESN'T encourage you to solve problemms in a bunch of epic ways using your creativity. That's just not true in the slightest.
We have a proverb for this, for crying out loud: "Necessity is the mother of invention".
And with TotK having busted solutions to most of the problems you have to solve, "necessity" goes out of the window. Why the hell would you create an elaborated contraption for doing something that can be made probably more efficiently with just two fans and a steering wheel? Just so you can show off your "creativity" on social media?
A big part of this is that they applied the reasoning of creativity to the wrong field. Ultrahand is basically magic engineering, and creativity in engineering is not the same as creativity in the plastic arts.
In engineering, "creativity" is always targeted to finding optimized solutions for solving problems. To solve complex problems with simple solutions by thinking outside of the box. Not to find alternative solutions that are more and more convoluted just for the sake of making the process more showy. If people tried to unironically apply the same mindset to solving problems in actual engineering as they do in TotK, they wouldn't pass the first semester.
@@XanderVJno i don't create contraptions to show off mu creativity on social media i do it because i like making silly contraptions that are awesome and cool.
When you described "carcinization" it was like a perfect fit for how I've been feeling about the Zelda fandom as of late. For me it even goes beyond the TOTK discourse; for example, when there are conversations about what people want in upcoming series output, it seems like it's just become a rotation of long-requested things like the WW/TP ports or LA19-style Oracle remakes or the movie being animated instead of live-action. You can only hear these things so many times from so many people until it begins to feel like nobody actually knows why they want these things, and like nobody has any imagination. I dunno if that makes sense haha, point is I'm just so BORED and seeing someone else point out this looming feeling was a relief. Great video.
I feel you man! I have a longing for those damn ports to come out just so we can talk about something else! There is a deep lack of creativity in the Zelda fandom right now
THANK you.
Well, I don't make videos because I don't feel supported by a community with holdups like "spoilers" bothering them. Why would I spare my imagination on people who will only say to me, if I write a character like Jolyne Kujo, she's going to be nothing but a spoiler on the adventures of her father? I'm not gonna spoil my creative output like how every episode of Smiling Friends ALREADY is spoiled by a one minute OneyNG video.
Referrring to fan insistence like "you ahve to read Jojo in order". That's just navel-gaxing on your pure "correct" experience, that's why people can't make friends past high school because they only can meet "clean slate" people with no previous history. And they have the balls to claim Japan is the only one "always making high school anime because of their arrested development".
No, the simple fact is that certain inspiring stories BELONG in the mental profile of a growing mind and body. "just make them older" would make them adults acting like teenagers, and cringe. But, cringe is the lifestyle choice of 28-year-olds crying about spoilers. I got rid of that when I finished reading Baccano!.
@@NayruYT Talk about The Flight of Dragons 1982
I see, I think Zelda should marry Tingle.
Thanks for letting me be apart of the best Zelda crab video on TH-cam!!! And welcome back king 👑
Thanks you for taking part, you killed it!
I honestly got so burnt out defending TotK. I eventually just gave up trying when I realized that I didn't need anyone else to like a game for me to enjoy it. I'm not blind to its shortcomings, but a lot of the things others have problems with, I'm able to see in an alternate light that doesn't make it look that bad.
The crazy thing is it seems obvious to me that TotK is a good game, it just fails in areas people were hoping for like lore. But that doesn't diminish its quality in other areas.
@@NayruYT Exactly!
@drb3427 That's the thing, though. I don't think it's awful. I think it's a good game despite its flaws. Definitely not the best game ever, nor even my favorite, but a good game nonetheless.
Tbh, I feel my main issue with a lot of recent detractors of TotK stems from the attitude they have, where it feels more like they're spiteful towards "Nintendo stans" and that drives them to really over exaggerate their gripes with the game. Like when they say "I thought I was going mad when I hated the game, how could no-one else see how shitty it was?" and like, maybe other people just liked the game?
Opinions will differ and while it's rude for TotK fans to shit on their gripes with the game, painting the opinion that TotK is a bad game as some secret truth people don't want to admit to themselves is also rude, because ultimately, if the game is bad or good comes down to if you like it or not, objectivity is hard to define for gaming because what's gonna suck for one player may be loved by another (like the Ultrahand building).
Idk, I feel this whole thing wouldn't be an issue if both sides of the fandom didn't feel the need to deal in absolutes, to claim the game is bad and people who like it are lying, or to claim vice versa.
@selinawalsh9075 Right. I don't mind if someone doesn't like the game for xyz reasons. That's entirely their opinion, and that's fine. I'll argue on behalf of those reasons if I can see a solution or work around to the problem. There's definitely room for improvement, but I don't think those shortcomings detract from the overall experience. At the end of the day, though, I'm of the opinion that if I can't see eye to eye with someone, then it's best to just shake hands and agree to disagree. However, there's always someone who's on the extreme ends of the argument that won't take anything as an answer except their view.
Maybe I'm getting old but as time goes on I feel less incentive to be active in a fandom... Sometimes it just feel pointless, like we're fighting about the same things again and again...
Yeah you are pretty much right on the money
That was a problem I've noticed with the Sonic fandom since I was a teenager, and im close to 30 now... Damn ..
You know what I yearn for right now? The ability to view games as nothing more than just that: games. Not a huge important chapter of a series that needs to meet the standards of the community or there will be hellfire; just a fun project from a team of developers I pick up off the shelf and have my own fun experience with. Online communities are great for sharing your experiences with others like you, but there seems to be this idea that they're the superior voice in how a series should be, and I don't like that at all. A truly great game is born from a great vision and genuine passion for your craft, and I just wanna appreciate what these people are able to come up with without projecting my own wants and opinions on it; Zelda has especially proven itself capable of such masterful visions. Would it be cool for the series to put more of a focus on continuity? Maybe, but it just isn't my call to make.
Some of the story elements individually in tears of the Kingdom made me feel things man, regardless of whether they fit in anywhere or are even that good, just a lot of the ways that they were presented were pretty good imo.
Also, we are so back! Cheers mate!
Thanks Kilik, thanks for taking part!
Well i'm glad you liked it
And that's exactly how Nintendo constructs their stories. The biggest mistake the Zelda fandom made was normalizing the idea that the overarching Zelda lore was more important than it was. These games are ultimately anthologies, there's no overarching plot about Ganon having a character arc or wanting to break the cycle or whatever, Nintendo constructs Zelda stories as individual stories with Zelda and Link shoved in somewhere. Skyward Sword was the only time the overarching plot has come close to mattering and even that was pretty much just the origin of the reincarnation cycle, the plot device Nintendo uses to hand wave why their protagonist looks the same in games that aren't the same setting.
@@selinawalsh9075 The problem is that ToTK is still bad as an individual story.
People are so scared of implied evidence, yet souls people get to speculate. Like sorry to say things can be lore and canon without a dialogue box
True!
Well souls lore is interesting and makes people want to speculate, where as zelda lore stopped being interesting in Tears of the kingdom because everything was spelt out too much not to mention they just retcon the timeline for no reason
@@Ze_chef69They never really retcon the timeline, BotW and the Calamity still happened, the events just aren't as relevant because this isn't a story that revolves around them.
@@selinawalsh9075 The Zonai in ToTK contradict the Zonai in BoTW. One is an ancient barbarian tribe and the other is Sheikah 2.0. The Zonai themselves also contradict Skyward Sword.
Thanks for letting me join up with the other VA’s haha, great video and good to see you back brother ❤
Thanks man, thanks for taking part, and I'm looking forward to your return!
I'd argue there's a reason conversations keep moving back to the game's disappointing story and lack of commitment to the lore. the fandom is entrenched in it, it is after all called the LEGEND of Zelda, that's what a lot of this game franchise's biggest fans are here for and it's really disappointing to see that so neglected.
To me that was one of the coolest part about this series growing up and sure if they didn't care about the lore to begin with, that's fine, but they should have had the sense to see how important it is to their fans and change their focus. Especially when they've been given so many outs with the hundreds of "how the timeline really does make sense" videos.
All this and the movement to more scifi mechanics have really just killed my love for the series lately. My excitement for the new Zelda game is MINIMAL.
A fair thought!
I know it's not the point of the video but since you mentioned it, holy crap, yes, I love the final boss so much in TotK. It was a huge step forward from BotW where the finale was just target practice on a pig (we should have been able to climb Ganon! Shadow of the Colossus style!). I also consider it my favourite final boss battle in the series. The combat against Ganondorf was supurb and the finale with the dragons in the sky was insanely epic! I went for it as soon as I could after the main quests and it was just difficult enough to be a challenge but I managed to beat it first try. Love it so much
It really was a great finale to the game
The final boss was my favourite part. The spectacle was amazing.
@@higurashikai09 The same character gave us the worst final boss in the series and the best. 🤣
The Zelda fandom is just experiencing what every fandom of a long running franchise does when it gets a reboot. It fractures into two camps of those who like the reboot and those who don't, and nothing will ever heal this divide. Like it or not, the future of the Zelda fandom will experience the same fate that has befallen fandoms like Star Wars and Sonic. It just took Zelda a lot longer to get there.
What a depressing thought
@@NayruYT Eh, you get used to it. Just stick to the parts of the fandom you enjoy. Personally, I don't care for new Zelda. Rather than pointlessly fighting and arguing with new Zelda fans, I'm just going to stick to the old games and Ocarina of Time romhacks while ignoring whatever new Zelda stuff Nintendo comes out with.
I like the new games fine. I just miss the days when we accepted each game as its own stand alone legend. It was a treat when we got the odd sequel or "first game." Now everyone won't shut up about the damn superficial timeline.🦀
@@tirvine9102 There's always been a timeline. Even if Nintendo didn't explicitly put one out there, they made clear which game came after which other game, and it was pretty straightforward. It wasn't until the 2000s that the timeline situation got murky and complicated with timeline splits, games getting shuffled around, and whatnot. I don't think many people even care about the timeline anymore, I know I certainly don't. When a direct sequel like TotK can't even keep plot details consistent with the game that it's a direct follow-up to, why should we even care? It doesn't really matter, and it isn't even worth arguing about anymore. The conversation isn't going anywhere, Nintendo has already made up their mind on what Zelda is going to be going forward, and the fans of new Zelda, who outnumber us old fans, are obviously getting sick of hearing about it. The best advice I can give to people who care about series lore is to pack up their bags and move on from Zelda. I hear FromSoftware games offer pretty much exactly what they're looking for. It was fun while it lasted, but it's time to face the music. It may seem like a downer note, but really, I'm just encouraging people to find something new that they can enjoy rather than spending their time miserably sulking about something they have no say in changing.
@@GANONdork123 perfectly said.
I wish I lived in a timeline where Tolkien wrote the _Zelda_ lore.
That would be pretty interesting for sure! How many pages to describe the Deku Tree? 🤔
That would be dope.
We'd have a speakable Hylian then.
Why?
Just read lord of the rings
This is truly the pinnacle of crab analogy on youtube.
Just to entertain the thought of whether or not the Zelda team cares about the lore, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they've never prioritized it, but still care in minor facets. Ever since Zelda II, they've demonstrated that they don't want to be held down by the idea of continuity. Having to introduce a brand new Zelda while the previous one is still alive is a great example of this.
They don't want to sacrifice storytelling for the sake of continuity. They ultimately want to tell a new story but still carry on a legacy of the previous games. Another example would be Majora's Mask, wherein they continue the journey of the same Link from Ocarina of Time, but proceed to tell a brand new story that has very little story elements from the previous game.
Link begins his journey by saying goodbye to Zelda, receiving the Ocarina of Time, and going on a quest to find Navi. This is then immediately halted in order to introduce a brand new world that has absolutely nothing to do with his original quest. I understand that Majora's Mask was originally titled Zelda Gaiden, but laying out the beginning of the game as a direct sequel only to disband this idea altogether in the next cutscene is quite telling of their real intentions.
Ultimately, this whole topic can be disregarded as pure speculation, but I think it holds some merit in answering a question that somehow every conversation about Zelda devolves into.
To anyone who reads this, please let me know what you think.
It's easy to assume that the Zelda Team never truly cared about story or continuity. However, if you look at old interviews with Miyamoto during the time of Ocarina of Time, it's extremely clear that he intended for there to be a continuity and one unified timeline to follow. He was very serious about how that was followed and that future games and stories didn't diverge from those things. That being said, Miyamoto did permit the team to not trouble themselves over every little detail, as that would become tedious. So, he simplified it down to just major plot points and places.
This begs the question then, when did this change? There is a lot of evidence to suggest it changed when Aonuma took the reins from Miyamoto, starting with Wind Waker causing timeline splits and other nonsense, which if I recall correctly, Miyamoto was very much against that idea. My understanding is that Aonuma doesn't care about the lore, timeline, or consistency. This is clear with his clash on how Zelda should be done compared to Miyamoto. For as much as people slam on Miyamoto "hating story", they clearly haven't seen his old interviews concerning Zelda and how adamant he was about keeping certain things in place.
Those are just some of the things I found concerning this matter. I recommend looking into Aonuma's rather iffy history and views in the Zelda team. It explains why Zelda is the way it is today, really.
I think you are largely correct, Mr. Derp! Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@nikorasupo3 I agree some people should just accept TOTK as it's own Beast separate from the older titles and that's okay you don't need to fixate on every single detail. Except if your a Fixfic writer.
I think something people need to understand about the timeline is that the official timeline on the website and in the books is not to be taken as a definitive timeline of events that overrules what the games themselves say(the information from the books too shouldn't overrule the games, the writers wants us to treat it lightly and there is no unified body or voice that declares the Zelda canon) and Shogakukan, Nintendo DREAM, Ambit and even the devs want to leave the actual timeline as a puzzle for the fans to figure out plus the timeline is not more important than the stories and what came before in a different game isn't always important to the story of the game you are playing.
Some things people misunderstand about the stories and characters are usually misconceptions based on misinterpretations of a character's dialogue(Ganondorf’s and Demise's are the common ones. Ganondorf's role, theme and purpose is also sometimes misunderstood as he is supposed to be a representative of a purely evil, greedy, delusional, remorseless and selfish destructive mindset and worldview and the title of demon king or king of darkness has always been a part of his character since the first game in the series so he is not supposed to be a very deep and complex villain, he is meant to serve as the antithesis of the main characters, a dark reflection of Hyrule's kings who has opposing views about rulership and power, that is the character's appeal.
Some fans misunderstand why he is the way he is in TWW where he is only sympathetic because he's had a massive fall from grace twice and is grasping at straws and losing his purpose as he is worn out and tired but not conflicted because of "good in his heart" and he has never been someone who cared about the Gerudo's lives. People also fail to realize that there isn't a rule that says that every Gerudo male is Ganondorf so there is room for other Gerudo male characters who aren't Ganondorf) or a mistranslation of the original language or a lack of understanding of Buddhist, Shinto or other religious and cultural concepts so sometimes we have people who think that the Master sword breaking should be impossible, misunderstandings of reincarnation, incarnation/manifestation, offshoots or misunderstandings about the Triforce and it's pieces(which aren't always in the hands of the main characters and villains as they more often represents a part of the Triforce(because of their own minds and choices, not because something made it so)).
Zelda lore and the timeline is pretty flexible and not everything is necessarily set in stone other than the fundamental themes that make the Zelda series the Zelda series.
I think this is an excellent and insightful comment, and I largely agree
Given how many games this franchise has now, I honestly think it's for the best that the timeline is like this. Attempting to tie everything together for so long would just lead to the individual stories becoming much messier over time, and that's not a price I'm willing to pay. I'm a big fan of Metroid lore, but there is a slight fear of something like that happening to that franchise, especially given how much of Dread's plot was based on previous games.
Yeah, people really tend to overestimate how much Nintendo gives a shit about the overarching lore. They really only care about the reincarnation cycle as a plot device to explain using Link, Zelda and Ganon in radically different settings and stories and maybe some Easter eggs from older games.
*CRAB INTENSIFIES*
But fr, this is pretty much exactly how my YT comments have been, whether or not I’m even talking about TOTK, and it honestly wears thin real fast.
Thanks for having me on this video sir!
TIME FOR CRAB!
Thanks a ton for taking part Captain!
Honestly I think this is a problem most other fandoms have, not just Zelda. I've seen this countless times when it comes to the Pokemon fandom, the Paper Mario fandom, and I'm sure there are other fandoms that I have not mentioned that do the exact thing you showed examples for. "Carcinisation" is unfortunately a fairly common thing on the Internet nowadays.
I'm starting to understand that with all the examples of other fandoms doing similar things that people are providing in the comments!
I think this probably just going to be the hot topic until we get some kind of view at the future of the series. I do think that the fact we have so much discourse indicates there's probably something that the dev team could do to bridge the gap between the divide in the fanbase. At least, I hope so. My personal feelings are that if there are people who prefer that old sort of structure, having conversations is a good way of making our voices heard. If we don't, there won't be any clear message of demand.
Yeah you are correct for sure! I just wish EVERY conversation didn't devolve into it, y'know! Even a 60/40 split would be fine!
@@NayruYT Totally fair. Sorta similar to pokemon discourse back during sword and shield (and still today to some extent) Nearly all conversation would lead back to the whole dexit thing
When I saw the crabs, I thought of The Legend of Zelda The Wind Waker, as I was also making models of characters from the game in Blender, made Link, a Redead, Moblin, Chuchu and a Kargarok.
That is super cool!
Debate about what's good and bad about a piece of media helps to improve media as a whole. It needs to be ok for people to have differing opinions and be able to butt heads from time to time. It's healthy. Otherwise, we'd just have a bunch of uniform yes-men willing to ignore blaring creative errors just because someone likes it. Effectively it's the death of creativity. An example is Skyward Sword to Breath of The Wild. Breath of The Wild has been one of the most popular games in the series to date and brought a ton of new qualities to the series, but none of that would have been possible had there not been a backlash against the linearity and motion controls of Skyward Sword. Sure, plenty of people loved Skyward Sword, myself included, but that backlash and debate that ensued helped to grow and nurture the series.
All that is to say that a huge chunk of the fanbase has found a blaring creative issue with this new format of Zelda and like Skyward Sword before it people are going talk about it until Nintendo fixes it. This is partially because the Zelda team at Nintendo is pretty well known for their willingness to follow fan feedback. Zelda 2 to Link To The Past, Wind Waker to Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword to Breath of The Wild are all examples of this in one way or another. It's one of those situations where the discourse really matters.
The discourse this time is only so ubiquitous because Nintendo DIDN'T fully address the criticisms lobbied against the last game as they usually would. No worries, though, as with the prior games in the series eventually the next Zelda game will come out and likely address fan feedback, have new ways IT can improve, and then we can revisit this game through the lens of what made it good and what those later games can learn from it. If not... well I guess we riot XD (jk).
I certainly understand and accept your point! Criticism is VERY important, I'm a firm believer in being critical even of things you love. I just think maybe there should also be space to have conversations that are outside that sphere, such as about Zelda games other than TotK, but even those conversations seem to corrupt into a conversation about TotK's deficiencies eventually
@NayruYT I respect that, but this just tends to be how the Fandom has been for the last few decades. The Zelda conversation amongst longtime fans will almost always stray into the topic of improvements. I remember when Skyward Sword came out, I wanted to talk all about the dungeons and the lore, but everyone was just obsessed with those motion controls. XD It's likely to settle down once the game's had more time to sit and even more so when we get more details about the next game. It's never REALLY gonna just disappear, though. Like with Skyward Sword's motion controls and Wolf Link, Zelda fans often hold gameplay grudges. XD Even when it's less of a talking point, there will always be those who dog on the storytelling/dungeon design in the Nintendo Switch duology.
You're kind of skipping over A Link between worlds, the game was a non-linear version of the classic formula and very well done one at that.
@Zuldaar Edit here. It's a bit embarrassing, but i thought I was replying to a different comment thread. This was in reply to the new Zelda-focused game that was just announced: True, and I enjoy Link Between Worlds, but the changes are a bit less drastic than this. The main difference in that game is that the items are given to you outside of the dungeon, but they're still varied and specifically catered to specific dungeons/puzzles and the combat is still effectively the same. I personally still prefer having dungeon items found in dungeons or through the main story because they feel like more valuable rewards, but Link Between Worlds manages to make it work by not being too much of a departure even if it minimizes the overall value of dungeons items in the process (that's an opinion).
@Zuldaar As an actual reply to what you're commenting here since the last reply was a mistake. 😅 Link Between Worlds wasn't panned like Tears of The Kingdom (TOTK) or Breath of The Wild (BOTW) because the Link Between Worlds' story and dungeons (internally) ARE linear. The critiques often lobbied against TOTK and BOTW don't really apply to it.
In Link Between worlds, the player actually plays through the story. In both TOTK and BOTW, the player isn't really playing through a good chunk of the events in the story since most of the story/memories take place removed from the player in the past. Being able to play through the events of the story is often looked on better because it makes gameplay part of the narrative instead of dividing gameplay and story, which lowers engagement. Basically, memories/tears = bad, but the game's intro and final boss = good. Further, even when you do engage with the story, you could piece it together non-linearly, which comes off as disjointed. The main quest line is also separated into unrelated chunks as well and has a lot of repetition.
As for the dungeons, they're just fundamentally linear in Link Between Worlds. Not in how you find them but in how you progress within them. They don't have an open-air design, which is what a lot of fans have an issue with since open air doesn't have the same value of progression and cohesion that older Zelda dungeons have.
I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. I've actually been wondering about you recently because I noticed you hadn't uploaded in a while. And now i know why, again so sorry for your loss.
I appreciate you keeping me in your thoughts! Hopefully I'm back for good now, and thank you for your condolences.
@@NayruYT you're welcome.
My main, and probably baseless, worry is the Zelda community devolving until it resembles the Star Wars fandom.
That’s a scary thought
Oh dear.... I hadn't even considered that
That is naught worth considering. The idea.. it frightens me…
I hope the Zelda community doesn’t turn into old heads stuck with the past games
@@MousaThe14I mean, Disney and Lucasfilms aren’t helping either, they are also petty and vindictive against the fans
Disney (and SW by extension) is very much deserved of the ire it gets from the fans.
Im in genuine agony because im of the belief that the new games needed to happen but failed miserably
I dont want the old games back i want a mix between the two. Give me the old structure with the ability to do whatever i want within it. Let me get the hookshot in a classic dungeon and use it to scale a mountain in the open world outside said dungeon.
That is kinda my ideal scenario as well!
Thanks for including me on this one!
Thanks for taking part!
I find the fan base’s horror at the idea of a retcon kinda weird. Ocarina of Time itself was a retcon that didn’t work at all with the pre-established lore in the first 3 entries.
People think TotK retcons stuff because they somehow think Rauru was the founder of the Hyrule in the Era of Myth. But the Hyrule he founded is still far in the future. I guess Nintendo is going to release an updated timeline because they are tired of people not catching onto that.
Also, TotK takes more concideration of lore than some other Zelda games. This whole stuff is just bandwagoning.
A fair take!
The worst thing to happen to the Zelda fandom was Nintendo compromising with lore theorists desperate to make a timeline out of anthologies not intended to tie together in that way by making a vague timeline, because now it feels like timeline discussion is all people care about in the story. Don't get me wrong, it's fun to speculate, but it feels like people think of "lore accuracy" first and "fun story" second, which runs against the entire point of Zelda as an anthology series.
@@selinawalsh9075
The Zelda creators always had some sort of plot continuety in mind.
@@Ninjaananas Very vaguely. Nowhere near on the level timeline theorists present. It was stronger in the early days, but sort of lost continuity as the new settings piled up.
@@NinjaananasIt's vague at best.. Even the conneection between OoT /WW and TP are vague on alot of areas aside from Ganondorf.
Boy I hate the new TH-cam layout, comments to the left is horrible. Anyways here is a list of the voice actors and their channel!
Example 1:
Tyler Townsend (www.youtube.com/@TylerTownsend)
Newbornkilik (www.youtube.com/@newbornkilik)
Example 2:
Triforce Times (www.youtube.com/@triforcetimes)
Drakenwild (www.youtube.com/@Drakenwild)
Edible Incredible
(www.youtube.com/@Edible_Inc)
Example 3:
Hank (no social media)
Wiz Catches Lightning (www.youtube.com/@wizcatcheslightning)
Triforce Trends
(www.youtube.com/@TriforceTrends)
Example 4:
Hyrule Gamer (www.youtube.com/@HyruleGamer)
Captain Burgerson
(youtube.com/@captburgerson?si=RBzXMCnDKZBUcUr6)
It's confirmed. I AM Hyrule Gamer now
...all these links take me to a page that says the page isn't available.
Ironically, except Capt's lol
Meanwhile the conversations I overhear in my university “where is the weirdest place you’ve done the deed?”
Honestly I think we’ve been having this lore discussion ever since link to the past turned out to be a prequel.
In a way I think you are correct
Thank you for acknowledging this. The theory side of things sadden me as every discussion becomes "that's not canon" or "something with the timeline". I genuinely enjoy making my own totk theories like how does the ancient hero fit into the time loop and such, I'd like to have a discussion with you about some of these as I think you'll find some joy in them
Feel free to hit me up whenever, always happy to chat!
George Miller had the right idea with regards to Mad Max, where there's no concrete continuity between each movie, and they're basically a series of campfire stories. This approach would work best for Zelda, but Nintendo made the mistake of making a timeline for the most obnoxious fans on the Internet.
Age of Calamity made me distance from the fandom, because I loved the game, but every discussed ended up with how it was not canon, when it's one of the best gameplays a musou had, even when it was plagued with poor performance.
And the story was good, even if it was full of cliches and not ending being the misery porn most Zeldatubers thought it would be. I saw adult Sidon giving Mipha a sweet wide smile and that made me happy.
@@GeneralOlde Nintendo made a timeline when Zelda 2 was announced. and then again when Link to the past was announced as a prequel and then again when Ocarina of time was announced as a prequel to that. Get it? There's ALWAYS been a timeline. This was never final fantasy.
@@nworder4life Yeah, back when the series was still being codified. The reincarnation cycle hadn't even been made up yet. Ultimately, Zelda solidified into an anthology series and the insistence that a vague timeline made by Nintendo to compromise with theorists is more important than the stories told in the games themselves has ruined discussions about the individual stories, but it tends to often devolve into "how lore accurate is this?", "this contradicts an older game, I hate it now" or "Why does Ganon not have a character arc about breaking the reincarnation cycle?"
Always so weird for me to hear people say the story in TotK was bad because I legitimately grieved when I found out what happened to Zelda, and I happy-cried when Rauru and Sonia restored her true form. Like, I'm sure there's plenty of ways the story could've been a little tighter, but at the end of the day, it got me to Feel harder than any other game has in years, so I figure they must have done SOMETHING right lol. Anyways really great video. I hope the Zelda community can grow out of this quickly and get back to being a chill fandom.
I appreciate that, thank you!
You felt this way because you understood the point of the story. Zelda's purpose was never to die; she was meant to make it home to Link. Her restoration takes nothing away from her sacrifice.
The story is ok or better objectively, but the presentation is like a movie chopped up into parts and you see them in any order. One of the first tears cutscenes I saw was memory #16, where zelda decides to consume the tear and become the dragon. (Thunder island seemed interesting, silly me, should have known). Most cutscenes after that didnt hit as hard when I knew what would happen… a linear story you can see in any order? Not the best idea imo
@@meetsys True, but I'd argue Breath of the Wild had the same problem of characters dying if you do the Divine Beasts, then getting character development for them after if you looked at the memories in that order. That and the characters generally being underdeveloped without the DLC (the story parts should've been in the base game imo). I just really dislike the BoTW/ToTK approach to storytelling and hope they move on from it. It works in the context of them wanting player freedom and optional storytelling but the stories suffer from this approach a lot.
@@tlozmeowcatz7991 Definitely agree, it would have been better for both games if totk changed this, it retroactively cheapened botw, but it could have been fine if the story in the present was… well… present. It seems like the bare minimum to get you into dungeons.
Also, this might be because I am 6 years older, but the npc dialogue feels incredibly fake. I stopped talking to most npcs because of this.
I absolutely love the oracle games and speculating how Holodrum and Labrynna came to be and what they might be across the different timelines, but the CD-I games were actually a multidecade foreshadowing to how bad tears of the kingdom's plot would be and how much the team just doesn't care about the lore
Hahahaha I love this comment
Okay, but King Rhoam’s spirit reappearing and asking Link what’s for dinner would have made the plot amazing. Imagine if they went with a “so bad it’s good” approach to the story.
Nice to see you back as always.
We just need to bring the conversation back to basics, like how atmospheric the game is. I'll just have walks and take in the views or have a stroll in the rain sometimes
I definitely agree there, thanks Brandoge!
Pretty much this. Everything always somehow goes back to TOTK. And while I'm fine with people discussing their grievance, it's something else entirely when any conversation about Zelda will come back to TOTK with lore and story. And it became not only a buzzkill, but absolutely annoying. And it's definitely not helping with certain content creators that do exactly that. If you want a reason why the "Zelda fandom" is dying, it's exactly this crab phenomenon.
Hopefully the crabs go extinct!
I just think the timeline needs a complete rewrite. The old timeline just doesn’t fit anymore.
If I were to rewrite the timeline though, my first priority would be finding a definitive end to the timeline and making the Link from the Oracle games the same as the one from aLttP
Alttp Link already is the same link from the oracle games
That's very fair! Personally I'd love to see them just abolish it entirely
@@ArtemisWasHere I thought it was retconned? Must be imagining things again I suppose.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If all characters are just gonna get reincarnated and play out essentially the same story again and again with little to no connection with the previous stories, we don't need a timeline. All it's doing is causing unnecessary turmoil in the community as a result of the cracks inevitably beginning to show.
I can't stand the reincarnation theory it annoys the crap out of me. I liked it better when it was descendants and one Ganon(dorf) every time. The point is that Ganon(dorf) keeps coming back again and again because he's relentless and has dedicated followers.
Now its "omg Demise's curse" BS and we have multiple Ganondorf's because they couldn't just say that Ganondorf from FSA is the same one from OOT, so they had to retroactively establish him as brand new. And since they had one new Ganondorf now they can have another new one.
I'd be fine if BOTW/TOTK were standalone games unconnected to the rest but they keep referencing the older games every chance they get.
Zelda fans before TOTK: you check out this 40×40 pixel texture in Majora's Mask, here's a 2 hour Theory video about how it ties into the other games.
Fans after TOTK: REEEEEEEEEEEE I don't want head canon, I want to be TOLD what my head canon is!!!!
An interesting interpretation
Well you need some bases to speculate off of. If there is no foundation really you could just come up with anything
This is actually really interesting, because for me the feeling I got from totk's story is not that the zelda team doesn't care about the lore or the "old zelda" anymore but rather the opposite! They did something completely new in botw, and now they're actually trying to find a new balance between the new, more open style of gameplay to the older, more linear style of zelda storytelling that is very much connected to the in-game history and lore. I do, however, think that totk did not reach this balance and that really made the plot feel lacking, but I really hope that the zelda team keeps trying to reach this balance in future games, and I'm sure they'll be able to make something amazing with it!
An interesting observation!
I feel like they just didn't do enough changes to feel warranted, or at least for people who played BotW first anyway. The sky islands felt empty and copy pasted as well as the Depths looking the same throughout except for the fire temple area. The temples might've been properly themed like temples of old but what you did inside remained the same of go around and hit 4 switches.
The story was ok at best but mediocre at worst since we weren't there in the middle of the action like the older games, hell it took a Dynasty Warriors spin off for us to experience the calamity to begin with.
The ending was cheesed because the game constantly informs the player that Zelda will be stuck as a dragon only for the game to say, " Just kidding, ghost magic is the answer".
The lack of explanation for where the sheika technology went, the lack of zonai lore would've been helpful for the sky islands since that's where they came from, and the depths could've been more interesting to begin with.
5/10 for my $70 and 440 hours of playtime. Glad Baulder's Gate 3 won the awards.
Fair!
@@NayruYT I wanna give TotK the benefit of the doubt but I also don't want rose tinted glasses covering my eyes either.
Heck right now me and a person on Twitter are arguing about the ending cutscene of Zelda changing back. I said it's cheesy as hell so I feel like it shouldn't have been fully reverse. Leaving Zelda with small horns and tail from her dragon form, the person says it wouldn't be what the game devs would have envisioned, etc.
After seeing fan art of it, I'd say it would've made it more dope but that's IMO.
@@rockowlgamer631 Honestly I think her transforming back with all of her memories ruined the emotional crux of the story. I think the disregarding of the existing lore was annoying, but I'd be perfectly willing to accept that if the story they provided was very tightly crafted and impactful on the player. I feel like the simplest way to make the story better would be to have zelda simply remain a dragon. It would've been a large paradigm shift, represent a real sacrafice of a major character, and it would've given an easy piece of lore for future titles to build upon. There are other issues with the story IMO, like ganondorf not getting enough screen time or motivation for his conquest, but those seem more complex to fix to me.
@@linksapprentice726 Yeah but this Nintendo we're talking about, kid friendly and all. Had to be a good ending (though to be honestly this Zelda in particular really does deserve it, I just wish the answer to the reversal wasn't so damn cheesy. Like "oops ghost magic".)
I sincerely doubt everything in BOTW was building up to Zelda becoming "Dead Female Character #7000." "oops ghost magic" just shows me you have no imagination and can't parse visual information, as the power used to bring Zelda back was the Recall ability she gave Link at the start. Rauru and Sonia just amplifed it the same way Sonia and Zelda amplified Rauru's light beam in one of the memories.
I sympathize your take in these conversations, but from my point of view, it’s not so much about the care for the lore, but rather accepting that this era of Zelda is its own thing, its own continuity, and how theorists of the series wanted to make the existing continuity more complicated than what it already has been since Hyrule Historia back in 2011. The whole idea about how the timeline somehow converges… just doesn’t fit Zelda. People are just treating the series, its chronology, the retcons, as if it’s Xenoblade Chronicles, a series that DOES establish its own lore based upon warping and morphing reality. Though it really shouldn’t come as a surprise, but devs teams from Monolith Soft had a hand in the development of the 3D Zeldas since Skyward Sword. They were heavily influenced in the making of BOTW and TOTK. One could say Monolith Soft codeveloped the games. While the plot point of reality being morphed was demonstrated in each entry, Xenoblade Chronicles 3 went all-out by combining the settings of both XC1 & XC2 into a world that on the surface seems like a never-ending hostile environment, but as the plot unfolds, it becomes clear how and why the merge came to be…
So trying to implement the idea into Zelda… isn’t that what Hyrule Warriors was for? Glorified fan fiction or not, the core focus was on its characters and gameplay. However, making the idea canon? Every iteration of Hyrule that fans grew up with and loved exploring upon somehow got “destroyed” and time somehow resets itself with no memory of the original (or the 3-split) timeline. I get that Hyrule DID get destroyed in one course of reality or another, but merging the timelines together and reset time? That’s literally asking for the universe to collapse upon itself. I don’t know about you, but I watched more than enough spacetime media to get the concept of tampering with the universe, and how destructive the consequences can be by merging one plane of existence to another and by merging the future with the past and vice versa…
Bottom line, Zelda isn’t Xenoblade… It’s ZELDA.
I think the issue is just that time travel is so prevalent to the identity of Zelda that it is just sort of expected to be there, even as the stories become more complicated and fleshed out. And unfortunately, they don't really think things out too well before committing to them
It’s wild how much discourse there is about Tears of the Kingdom retconning old Zelda. I can understand maybe people don’t like the story, but how is it retconning anything? Maybe I’m just out of the loop but I feel like that claim is just kinda pulled out of thin air.
The big one is Rauru being called the first King of Hyrule is directly clashing with what we understand about the first Hylians from Skyward Sword
But to me the answer is so obviously "it happened far enough in the future, SS's kingdom was forgotten"
@@NayruYT Yeah your reason makes sense to me, 10,000 years is a LONG time lol
@@JoeFilms5420 The Zonai were depicted as barbaric in BoTW, a trait that is completely missing in ToTK. If a sequel game directly contradicts the game it is a sequel to then you know you have a bad plot.
Can't wait for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Crabs to be announced tomorrow.
FINALLY
To me BotW and TotK is it’s own separate universe/timeline I don’t care what anyone says about a “unified timeline”. Specially because I played both games and honestly wasn’t the biggest fan of either game. I still prefer Ocarina of Time, Majora Mask and Twilight Princess. I honestly haven’t really liked any main Zelda game after Twilight Princess
Skyward Sword bored me quickly, BotW was ok because I knew this was a new type of game and that Nintendo was trying something new, but TotK was so obnoxious
That's fair!
at this point I mostly talk TotK with my brother because our talks never end with "story bad", as we mostly don't care about game stories in general and focus on gameplay xD
and I love how people complain about BotW and TotK contradicting stablished lore when the series does that all the time. Remember when Zelda 2's Zelda was the first Zelda? It was until Skyward Sword disagreed.
I also hate how when they talk about story, they only talk about cutscenes, specially the memories, when you adventuring, meeting people, solving someone's problem, exploring the world, experience the environmental storytelling is all story. Video games are an interactive audiovisual media, story is not only being told when we're watching scenes or reading dialogue boxes, it's also when we're playing.
That last paragraph is an interesting point!
Agreed! Tears of the Kingdom has so much more going on in the present than Breath of the Wild did to where I cannot get behind the complaint of this game's story being limited to the past. Ancient Hyrule's story just feels like one small part of the entire kingdom's effort to stop Ganondorf.
But the side quests and NPCs are less interesting than the already mediocre plot. The series has done great side quests starting with OoT, yet after SS they started to lose their touch. Also your point about Zelda II and Skyward Sword is probably the worst possible point you could have come up with, since Zelda II’s Zelda was simply the first canonical one we knew about *at the time.* Why even use Skyward Sword as the contradictory example? Zelda in Zelda II being the first Zelda was contradicted one game later in A Link to the Past. Here’s a better example of a contradiction: How was Young Link not turned into a Stalfos when wandering through the lost woods when we know that’s what happens to non-forest folk, and the Deku tree is dead and can’t prevent it?
Totk theorycrafting is both the gift that keeps giving and fighting a losing battle at the same time.
Indeed!
CRAB PEOPLE! CRAB PEOPLE!
That’s what I thought of when I saw the video thumbnail, lol 🦀
I love it
I loved the Gannon fight in Totk I think that’s the best design Gannon has ever had.
"We want Nintendo to expand on the Zonai Lore 🤓"
>Nintendo does so.
"Ugh, this Lore is pathetic because it's not the same Lore we wanted and what we have been hearing on repeat about Ancient Times on the Zelda Series 😡"
This is what i hear everytime
Like, Duh of course this is not the same Lore, you wanted Rauru to be the same Rauru from Oot? How exactly? You wanted Dungeons but now you dont?
You wanted a Story that is followed rather than a story that already happened but now that's bad?
Is The Zelda Fandom becoming a Clone of the Sonic Fandom?
Also, i hate the fact that this is gonna happen to Echoes of Wisdom.
People ask for a New Top down Zelda, there it is
People wanted to play as Zelda
There it is
But then, The game is gonna be praised like some months and then BOOM
Some meatwad is gonna make a Video about why the game sucks and Aonuma should, idk, avengers Endgame himself out of shame or something a Lore obssesed guy would say
And yeah, Baldur's Gate Deserved the GOTY
The Zelda cycle at work!
I personally don't care if TotK contradicts the lore or makes it and BotW in its own lore space with respect to the rest of the series, I kind of think it's better if it disregards the established lore to be completely honest. However, I think people's reactions to TotK's kind of having it both ways is also defensible. I feel like there was a kind of social contract between Zelda devs and fans. Devs would put stuff out there that would provide a lot of space for players to project and imagine all this stuff. I mean if you look at most of the Zelda lore people get really into, most of it is stuff that is implied to be in between games, the most interesting stuff generally is not in any one game itself.
Tears of the Kingdom minimally adds to that space with a not very developed Zonai lore, but worse it kind of subtracts from the lore that was already there. I think most casual fans are probably indifferent or don't know the whole series lore well enough that they even feel constrained by TotK in their imaginations. But as a fan community, I think Tears of the Kingdom really challenges that social contract.
Personally, I would prefer if they committed to the old games being actual legends in the diegesis of BotW/TotK. The story of Demise being a corrupted retelling of Ganondorf's initial rise is super interesting. The hero of time actually being BotW/TotK Link as prophesized by a Zelda who "saw visions of the future" but was actually from the future, and the master sword being the vehicle of her time travel, not Link's, is really compelling. I think Zelda fans are missing the potential of a completely rebooted Zelda lore, but I think the devs are at least that aware of the social contract that they cannot commit to that.
A fair take!
Then maybe in 30 years time. The same will happen to Tears and it will just be a Legend to another story.
The irony here is that if someone were to leave a comment on this video, it's going to be about the treatment of the lore.
But seriously, I think your main point is sort of an unfortunate feature of the internet. Conversations devolve into talking points, especially when there's division. For example, I hate Disney Star Wars but I also hate public Star Wars posts because inevitably somebody will write a comment to express that Disney Star Wars sucks, even if the post has nothing to do with that. Or if you try to enter The New Yorker caption contest you'll see multiple people going for a joke about Trump even if it's a cartoon about snowmen or something unrelated. When people do that they need to realize they're also contributing to the negativity surrounding the subject. Let people enjoy non-troversies in peace.
Hahaha you have absolutely been proven correct
I wasn't going to say anything at first. Rather, i was going to take what was said in this video and meditate on it a bit.
But then you said Impa was best gurl and i decided you must be objectively right about everything.
Impa is indeed best girl.👍
A man of exquisite taste!
I'm working on a concept for the next Zelda game - hoping to have some other Zeldatubers join in on it when it's more fleshed out. Would be happy to have you talk about what the next Zelda game would be then ;)
Absolutely, shoot me a twitter DM or email any time!
@@NayruYT Will do!
To be fair, the discourse is relevant. I love old zelda, and i am also of the opinion that it needed to evolve. However, i dont think that it is evolving quick enough or in the correct way. I think that people screaming from the rooftops about things like story, dungeons, and linearity vs. open-endedness will eventually make the devs reconsider their approach or send the series into mediocrity.
The perfect zelda game would combine the traditional elements of the old games and the open world exploration of the new games. I think most fans think this, and i think that this, in short, is what everyone is trying to get at in discourse.
Absolutely the discourse is relevant! And I definitely don't want to discourage people from voicing their feelings. It is just that when these feelings begin to overtake the majority of discussion, it begins to make participation in the community, a bit boring.
I would've assumed the "crab of all crabs" for the series would've been the open air total freedom philosophy, since that's basically the _other_ crab in the series. And arguably, the "do they care about lore anymore?" Angle could be reasked to "should totak freedom include breaking lore conventions too?". I think they go hand in hand. But I do love you bringing up this topic as a whole. I feel like it would make for a good psychology thesis.
But, generally speaking, I think the _reason_ behind the crab being lore continuity overall, is because of a very _very_ simple principle: fiction can be or explain anything you want. (A fat plumber stuffs down mushrooms to save a princess from a turtle dragon? Yea, totally plausible. Power of friendship saves the day? Commonly actually, but in the pony world, it literally fuels their own magic. And that's totally valid). Fiction, and especially fantasy fans, will take whatever you give them. They're easy to please. BUT. The _absolute worst way_ to piss them off, is to break the own continuity of your fictional fantasy universe.
So when the author (or in this case devs) gives the impression they don't care about the story, or that it breaks its own rules within its defined universe, you're guarenteed to rub the fans the wrong way. And the more depth the lore and more passionate the fanbase, the more hell is raised.
You know what, i'll inject some zelda discourse that might be fair: When do we get a remake of the original game?
Or a Zelda II remake that fixes the gameplay jank, for that matter!
I feel awkward in the position of being someone who disliked Breath of the Wild but really enjoyed Tears of the Kingdom. I feel like I've seen a lot of praising of Breath of the Wild's story now that Tears happened, but when it came out I remember that being one of the aspects that was criticized heavily. Idk, it kind of feels like a case of the new thing getting the hate and people saying the old thing was good now suddenly. Not to discount any valid criticism towards the story of Tears, because frankly I think both stories heavily fall short in multiple ways, but it's just what I've been noticing.
yep, its kinda funny once you think about it
When i saw the crab in the thumbnail it reminded me of the Game Grumps OoT playthrough where Zelda saw the crab no one else could. I wonder how many arguments spark up over Zelda 2 adventure of Link lore since THAT game legitimately is largely forgotten in the entirety of the timeline.
Tears of the kingdom is hands down my new favorite title in the zelda series. I love mostly everything about it. Just wish there were more npcs in the sky islands. Felt a bit lonely. But it does need to be understood that a lot of the lore is up to us. Aounuma does in fact not care about the story. A quick google search will tell you that. The fact that everyone gets so worked up over something the dev doesnt even care about is quite exhausting. It used to be enjoyable.
I agree about missing NPCs in the sky, I was always thinking it would have been cool to come across a small NPC village up there
@@NayruYT the zoras and hylians could have worked together along with all the zonai devices they found to get up there and start exploring. Times are different between zoras and hylians now.
I agree, although I do think there are Zelda games with good stories and they could still do better than what we got in BoTW and ToTK. As someone who was massively let down by Breath of the Wild's story, Tears just seemed like more of the same, but with pretty much every other part of the game being elevated in comparison it does stick out a bit. Regardless Tears is definitely up there with my favs I'll agree on that.
@tlozmeowcatz7991 botw was pretty empty but I was so captivated by all the open world exploring that I guess I just didn't really notice. But it is set in a time when things are developing. I mean you literally help construct a town. So it's not gonna be as filled as other games. They really focused on exploration and doing things "your" way. And it was really fleshed out in tears. Everyone loves final fantasy but they all have different stories. Every single one and no one seems to get angry about that. These are reincarnations of people. So not gonna be the same story every time. There is the argument of people remembering past lives but those stories are far few in between and very scarcely believed. And there's no mention of either zelda, ganondorf, or link ever remembering their lives. Then there's wind waker link. He's just an average kid. No hero spirit. He just got dubbed a hero by the goddesses for showing courage.
So.. carcinization is basically the evolution of Fallout's Mirelurks? I mean, they are said in lore to be evolved from both crabs and lobsters (truly apparent since Queens are just giant l, tall crabs and Kings are literally lobsters lmao
Man don't remind me of the Mirelurk Queen!
Going to shoot this elephant in the room and say TOTK has among the strongest narratives in the series. The opening alone sets up every single plot point leading up to and including the ending efficiently. Everything from the main story to the side quests to the gameplay feeds back into the game’s core theme of unity and community.
Also, the “Zelda should have stayed a dragon” argument is just Zelda fandom’s equivalent of “Shinji Ikari is a pussy;” it’s a stupid person’s idea of a smart argument. Not does the game set up the ending with dialogue, visual cues, and established character relations, but it’s the only appropriate ending due to the game going above and beyond to drive home the idea that Zelda is the beating heart of Hyrule and its populace. Nothing about Zelda’s character development in BOTW suggests that the next step in her story was to become “Disposable Female Character #70345” for the sake of Link’s manpain. The ending isn't a cynical "just slap on a happy ending and call it a day" situation, and it continues the most vital plot thread established in BOTW: the romance between Link and Zelda (which fans curiously ignore and/or deny).
I largely agree with you!
As someone who loves Evangelion I agree the people who complain about Shinji are stupid, but wtf is your comparison between that and Tears of the Kingdom's ending? They have hardly anything in common and your whole comment is such a weird generalization.
Yeah, disagree
@@johnbarrett6835 Both statements are bad takes that are instant dead giveaways that the person saying them didn't understand the story at all.
@@NayruYT Gonna be funny when this game becomes a beloved classic in 5-6 years, unless the loreponies have poisoned the discourse so much that the game is considered the Batman & Robin of the franchise.
It's exhausting because much like what we see with Pokemon's fandom there's this, almost putting words into the dev team's collective mouths? Like you technically can't disprove their statement, but they can't really prove it outside of pointing at whatever they don't like at the moment. I kinda wished the team was more open to talking with fans to clear up things, even though that would never work for some people or make the complaining even worse. Nor is it the job of the dev team to basically explain themselves on every unpopular choice.
I've already seen instances of people just choosing to believe Aonuma is lying when he does explain certain choices, so honestly I think it would happen either way!
Lol I started typing and somehow it ended up going slightly crab in the middle of it. Point being, I think this is a great video 👏🏾.
I think the conversation turns this way because zelda has means a lot of different things to different people. Some people have strong opinions on the lore stuff or at least like to talk about it from time to time. I know I do for sure.
But I think its important to highlight that I fell in love with this community because of the games...because of watching macintyre productions/others a decade ago waiting for "zelda wii u". And, those conversations probably wouldnt have started if they were just easily dismissed with "the team doesn't care about lore".
Haha I appreciate that! I largely agree with what you've said here
i dont really mind people hating on the TOTK story because it is weak, but it really annoys me that they pretend that the entire game is bad because of it, they ignore the gameplay/design part of the game wich like it or not is more important and is the priority in a videogame, hate the story all you want, thats valid, but this is not a movie so dont just look at the story like its the only thing the game offers.
Also was happy to hear so many of my favorite Zeldatubers on your channel.
I'm thankful for them taking part!
Great video and great observation, it kind of reminds me about how bad tears of kingdoms story was and how aonuma doesnt care about the lore... 🦀🦀🦀
Seriously true! It's like they hate fans. >:(
Hahaha you got me with this one!
I feel like this is all caused by the fact that BOTW and TOTK brought in a whole new audience to Zelda which is great for the series! Though as time passed by and more switch units sold, the fans have gone from genuinely talking about a series they love to straight up one-uping fans. I think this is just what is happening to every fandom on the internet as time goes on. We have moved on from happy communities interacting with each other in the 2010s to fights about what it means to be a “real” fan LOL.
As somebody active on message boards and early social media in 2010, I can definitely verify that people still loved to one-up eachother back then too haha, but I do agree that fandom in general is starting to morph into a form I don't love
The problem with Zelda discourse rn is there’s no level of nuance or consistency when it come to criticism and praise with not just TOTk, but the series as a whole. Personally I think TOtK has the most misunderstood story in the series however that doesn’t mean it’s flawless but the same can be said for the rest of the stories in the series.
Bring nuance back to Zelda discourse
Well a new Game was just announced, that should shake things up.
And it looks great!
This reminds me a lot of how you'll often see discussion in the Kingdom Hearts community derailed because some guy gotta talk about how "shit KH3 was". There's a time and place for everything, maybe we should just stay on topic, y'know? 🤔
I guess that's what happens when, as you said, [blank] is such a hot topic issue in a community. It often just dissolves into the same discourse everyone is thinking about.
Let's hope Echoes of Wisdom gives people something else to think about for once. 🙏
I think that KH3 comparison is exactly correct.
Yeah, kinda sick of every conversation becoming a conversation about lore in terms of 'they dont care'.
I don't care that they don't care, if thats even whats going on. We can make speculations, but damn its just boring to keep doing that.
Just.. go write or read some 'fixed it' fanfic, stop making one's self unsatisfied lol
With any luck the break Echoes of Wisdom will make with the lore will mean Tears of the Kingdom will get a break. Since Link is supposed to be the chosen hero throughout time to save Zelda and Hyrule (see Skyward Sword for clearest example) Echoes definitely has the potential cause a lot of lore/story inconsistencies.
But which conversation took place in Tim Horton’s?! 😂🦀
Haha it was the BG3/TotK Game of the Year conversation! There was a nearby gaming convention so the Timmies was packed with nerds, and when I hear "Zelda" it was hard for me not to eavesdrop haha
Ive only gotten as far in TotK as besten Hebra and Eldin dingeons and trying (failing jard, more like) to cure the Delu tree. And as much as I go back to it, I barely get anything else done lol
That's fair!
Of course CaptBurgerson plays one of the dungeon critiquers 😂
Great video, sums it up pretty well. As someone who generally liked TOTK's story, there are absolutely things worth criticizing. It's just a shame so often it's judged on whether it connects to pre-existing lore or confirms/explores someone's theory and not on its own merits.
Haha it is a perfect fit isn't it! Thank you!
I actually liked ToTk's story problems aside. The age old "one year after newest Zelda game was released" hate train is once again hitting the community. It happens EVERY time. 😂
You certainly aren't wrong!
I think we're kinda angry at the story (and characters) of TOTK because it was the one thing this game has to heavily improved upon its predecessor, i could live with a reboot or retcons, but with zelda games i need to be emotionally engaged with what I'm asked to do. I learned to read in english because of zelda games, story and worldbulding were very important.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way, and when you're hurt by something you love , you bring it up in every conversation. It's not rational, its annoying, but it'll simmer down eventually
4:45 Kind of a weird jump from linear storytelling to lore. Lore is usually the backbone of open world games. Get thrown into a world and explore to find video logs or diary entries that tell you all about what already happened before you start playing. If they mean lore as in references to previous games in that case, I don't really understand the need for that outside of its immediate predecessor.
At this point I just accept that the open world Zelda games are doing their own thing, and you should just enjoy playing in the sandbox if you like that sort of thing. And if you don't, maybe it's time to move on from the series.
Ik they said that they didn't want to return to the old format but do you think a more linear Zelda would be the fit for the next game??(great video btw)
I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it!
This series has a long history and very vocal community, and the more recent titles were made to reflect on the series, abstract it, and reform it into something new. Of course there will be conversations about this, and of course our collective dialogue will reveal the core points of frustration that many face when approaching this new formula for the series. This anomaly you point out isn't a bad thing, I think it can help the community to better verbalize the points of tension within that community. I agree with the crabs! As time has passed I have grown very disheartened about the direction of this series as I have begun to play older games. I am not sure if the things we lost were worth the freedom and open air of BotW and TotK. The lore, the story, and our immediate role in impacting those elements! Those crabby points are the heart of what I feel is lost from the new Zelda. These games have so much space in between releases, there is so much time for us to discuss and get attached to these worlds, and so much weight put on each release. I am just ultimately disappointed with this newest world. I don't think that is a sucky discussion, but a really interesting one. Instead of saying that this carcinization is bad because it's happening, approach it with curiosity and ask WHY. that is how you further discussions. Im curious how all of your examples continued after you cut them off.
This is a good comment and gave me something to think about, I appreciate you writing it! As I mention near the end I certainly don't think people are in the wrong for their criticism of TotK! In fact I agree with much of what people have to say about it. Simply, it is really boring having every single conversation follow the same path. I'm certainly very up for a discussion about how TotK can be improved on, what is wrong with the current direction of the series, etc. Just, y'know, not literally every single time!
I blame Arlo for some of this discourse, after putting that insulting video of Aonuma talking about lore.
I don't necessarily blame Arlo since the guy just wants to voice his opinion like all of us, but I definitely do think his fans take his word as gospel in a way that is extremely detrimental to conversation
@@NayruYT There's plenty of other zelda tubers that made videos on the inconsistencies with TOTK. Bandit and Ratatoskr come to mind.
I think the question of whether the Zelda team cares about lore is unimportant and irrelevant. There is lore, and we the fans care about it. That's what matters.
Besides, it's "The *Legend* of Zelda", not "The *Documentary* of Zelda".
Haha a true statement!
"..havent gotten any zelda news since tears of the kingdom.." Echoes of wisdom on the horizon ready to break the fandom
Dude I'm so pumped
This is something that multiple fandoms do. Someone already brought up Star Wars, TV pro wrestling has a similar phenomenon: people write the story they want in their head and are furious when that’s not handed to them. There is a certain subset of Zelda content creators that I think are creating feedback loops on this weird negativity. Yeah, Nintendo threw a curveball by not making the lore tidy and cohesive, but doing that would also have limited themselves. I don’t want them to limit themselves, that’s never how this franchise has worked. How many Zelda titles have pushed their respective console to the absolute limit?
There’s things I would’ve done differently if I made TOTK, but I didn’t make it. They had no issue selling the game, they didn’t need me to make it. If you rewatch the trailers (trailer 3 still slaps, btw), Nintendo delivered on everything promised for the most part.
A good point!
The Zelda discourse has really numbed my interests in looking into Zelda for a while :( seems that all people really talk about is how mid or bad TOTK was or how Aonuma ruined the timeline the fans spent all of the 2010s gushing over.
The Lore is definitely damaged from totk but the games are all good and undeestanding the lore of every zelda game isn't really necessary, the timeline never made any sense anyways so yeah, this ruins a ton of plot threads and makes a lot of past things make no sense but, like, who cares? The games are good and the stories themselves in a vacuum are also good.
@@calebmon I especially don’t really care for the timeline that much cuz firstly, when the fuck was BOTW put into the timeline? As far as I’m concerned, the official timeline wasn’t updated when BOTW dropped, there were only theories surrounding it. So we could easily argue that BOTW and TOTK are in their own separate timeline taking some influence from the canon ones. OR, we could do it the old fashioned way and come up with a theory placing the past portions of TOTK right between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap, which is kind of a lot harder of a conclusion to come to.
Precisely!
Thank you for the video because you more less put into words what I have been feelings. I have given up on online Zelda discourse. Like you said it will quickly devolve into how Zelda is dead and aonuma doesn’t care about the fans. Even the new game echoes of wisdom is quickly turning into aonuma doesn’t care.
Yes seeing it happen to discourse around a brand new game is extremely disheartening
I mean I don’t feel like your point is true for me. I have seldom talked about the story of totk. Many Zelda game stories are lacking and totk isn’t too different. I have found a lot more debate about the overall quality of totk.
I'm glad! It of course isn't true for literally every person, just the majority I've encountered
So... this MIGHT change later. But, right now... I'm not gonna lie. I'm NOT a fan of TotK.... I will admit, the story is one factor.
But, the MAIN issue for me is the pacing. Elden Ring solved this by giving you an immortal double jumping horse.
It also broke the world up into chunks. So the story progression could make sense. (Though in the Fromsoft way, be vague as Hell.)
I dunno.... I just kinda miss the vibe from the past games. WW and TP are some of my favorite Zelda games. (Hell, OoT, which for a long time I saw as overrated... well, it still is. But I've come to appreciate it over the years.)
But... yeah, I at least hope the next major Zelda game will be a daparture from the BotW formula.
Very fair!
This is the painful fate of any fandom of franchises. The message here is, enjoy something without interacting it's fandom. I learned that from Fallout fandom for example, no one will hate a game more than its fandom. Nostalgia makes people believe videogames should always be this monolithic entity that should never be changed by developers and they should never dare to try something new.
Yeah you are probably right, it is just painful because the fandom has been such a core part of my enjoyment of Legend of Zelda for so long!
Spoiler alert, the Zelda team only kinda cares about lore.
So they care slightly more than you should care. It's weird that anyone is upset by this.
And as a note, I do see that bg3 convo alot, but bg3 didn't revolutionize anything, their marketing team did. It's literally the same game they've made several times before. Kinda sad that people seem to think it's the first crpg.
I think you're right about the Zelda team!
@@NayruYT It's also pretty unfair to expect them to keep up with this stuff, its not like its one guy and his editor trying to keep things consistent, If I were the devs I wouldnt put much thought into the overall lore either, and just focus on the individual games, especially when you're dealing with alternate dimensions and time travel.
The Zelda discourse has really bothered me for the past few years. Makes me feel insecure about my opinions. It’s just not fun it has in some way affected my passion for the lore. Because it’s become just so miserable. Now I just avoid Zelda discussion and focus on my enjoyment. Because quite frankly I love all Zelda top down or old 3d or open air I love them all fairly equally.
It has really become something of a toxic area of discourse even aside from TotK, for sure
Time to crab boyos!
🦀🦀🦀
Incredible Crab Ahead
Great video Nayru
Thank you, and thanks for taking part!
this is literally how animal crossing fans behave on every new horizons video "man the villagers r so programmed and fake" "its not the same anymore" like WE KNOW,,, IM TALKING ABOUT THE GAME ENGINE WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH LORE
new leaf is superior but fans r so annoying
Haha I do have to admit I am a New Horizons disliker, but I like to think I don't derail conversations to complain
I’ve become crab.
You've simply ascended to the ultimate life form
If it's that common, maybe there *is* a problem.
I think so!
hmm, it does make sense though that conversation would return to the most recent game, since it is the most recent and most controversial in our memories... plus lore is central to most zelda fans' attraction to the series.
Of course! It just goes too far, like clicking a video on Majora's Mask to find the comment section full of people whining about TotK
Adding this to the fallen Zeldatuber timeline.
My favorite timeline
There wasn't realy a verry good story in the series to be verry much honnest.
Most of the times its pretty bare bones and in the games with better stories like the 3d ones its still not amazing.
Zelsa being the only story focused first party nintendo game for a long time lade people think its story was realy good for way to long but with games that have a story on par or better like fire emblem or xenoblade its weeb garbage and thus invalid.
The Xenoblade trilogy is soooooooo good fr
We will have to agree to disagree there!
1:56 SUBROSIANS REFERENCED! SUBROSIANS RISE UP!
SUBROSIANS FOREVER
Wait hold up this entire channel is a Subrosian reference
I am subscribing immediately
I understand “carcinisation” is a meme word but we have a word for this happening for other stuff. “Homogenization.” Things becoming samey and uniform.
Good point and meaningful community complaint, but bleh runtime padding.
I cut about 5 minutes of extra content out of the video, so it is very funny you think I am padding it by giving 20 seconds of a wikipedia definition to use as a framing device lol
@@NayruYT because the comparison to carcinisation feels forced and adds nothing (at least to me) to the comparison that just using the word “homogenization” doesn’t already convey. There’s not much flair or artistry in reading a Wikipedia article.
It’s great you consolidated some parts of your original script but that’s meaningless here. Maybe your cut sections had some more insight I would have like to hear instead of forced crab jokes, idk what you cut. You’re a video essayist, saying the right stuff in the right way is your vocation. “I already cut other stuff” is like, so what? It still feels forced. Maybe you cut it in the wrong way, or cut the wrong thing, etc etc.
All that said, I’m one guy out of your who knows how many viewers, and I stumbled upon your video via recommendations. Don’t feel attacked by my criticism, as that’s not my intent; I know I tend to both speak and write in a direct, blunt way that often stings more than intended, and if that was the case I apologize. Admittedly the thumbnail got me but I just didnt think the carcinisation comparison in spoken word landed as gracefully. I’ll appreciate if you hear my criticism out but ultimately, do what you or your majority audience wants. Thanks for entertaining this convo tho :)