I shudder at the thought, for whatever reason it would later be in my head forever, the guilt, I'd feel repulsed and alienated by myself, like an ultimate betrayal of my inner core. I'm an atheist and I feel sick even imagining a scenario. My psychology-science guess is that maybe people who COULD do that and forget about it by compartmentalising it for the rest of their lives - simply assume all people would do the same for gain if they could get away with it?
Her first answer doesn't make sense. She says that the difference between psychopathy and sociopathy is that psychopaths are different in that psychopaths can't feel love, empathy, shame and guilt, whilst sociopaths can learn to feel these emotions. This is not how the distinction is made by experts. It's a bit complicated, but: psychopathy isn't in the DSM, but is a widely recognized and studied condition diagnosed by on a test developed by Robert Hare called the Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R). The checklist includes behaviours and emotional dispositions such as lack of empathy. Psychopathy is thought to have a genetic component but the severity of the condition is often mediated by the environment, like whether you have a loving and stable family life as a child. Sociopathy isn't in the DSM either, but Antisocial Personality Disorder is. ASPD is similar to psychopathy, but the diagnosing criteria are purely behavioural rather than being about mental or emotional states. Generally, it is true that ASPD is thought to be more acquired (due to abusive parenting, for example) and so in that sense can be more treatable than psychopathy. But this doesn't fit with what Gagne says, which suggests that children can be born sociopathic (as distinct from being born with psychopathic traits). That's not really how things are understood. The video says that Gagne is a "diagnosed sociopath". As what I said above should make clear, you can't be a diagnosed sociopath. You can be diagnosed with psychopathy or ASPD. So, which is it in her case? Since ASPD is based on behaviour, such as a criminal history, and she lacks that - that seems unlikely. Another article says that a psychologist diagnosed her with psychopathy using the Hare Checklist. So, if anything, she's a psychopath. But I should note that the Psychopathy Checklist takes a lot of training to use, and so psychopathy isn't something that can be diagnosed by any run-of-the-mill psychologist. So, maybe she's neither.
Did you read the book? She talks all about sociopathy, psychopathy and ASPD in the book and how there are many important nuances between the three. Her interview answer didn’t cover the extent of how she covered it in the book (short interview).
@erinpletch2223 I am an academic whose research is adjacent to this area. I've actually read a lot of peer-reviewed research (and the DSM). My entire point is that experts don't make the distinctions she does. I'm not sure she's been diagnosed with anything, so I don't know what her personal experience establishes, and she has no track record of scholarship on this topic (such as peer-reviewed publications).
Interesting take. I have read about what you are talking about (probably not to the same extent) because I used to be a social worker at a psychiatric hospital. I did talk to a LMHC regularly who was researching personality disorders. He felt that more needs to be done because most of the time the only way these people are going to be studied is if they are being required to be interviewed/assessed by a professional. So he thinks because these people typically don’t have the tendency to speak to a therapist or get mental health help for daily/typical concerns, we’ve mostly developed a very extremist checklist. In other words he believes that these personality types and disorders can appear as a spectrum, sort of like how we are figuring out in recent years that just about all disorders have a spectrum. Like you did I have some doubts about how she came to her conclusion but I feel like she may still be on to something. What she’s describing and the way she is talking I certainly wouldn’t describe as ASD. I also don’t know that it sounds like depression. I feel that maybe she knows her life and was a therapist so I feel like I mostly trust what she is saying.
Very well done interview, Emma! Would love more in this vein - interviewing people who've written memoirs and getting to hear their view on what their story should teach others.
Many terms that are used here are not uses the same way that professionals do. For one, 'sociopath' is not in the DSM so I'm not sure what she means about being diagnosed with that. It's funny considering she said she's done a lot of reseach. I recommend you listen to professionals discuss these topics. Take care!
In the book she talks many times about how sociopathy is no longer in the DSM (but it was at one point), and the main theme of the book is her bringing attention to the fact that there are many important nuances between sociopathy, psychopathy, and ASPD.
@@erinpletch2223 Researchers in this area don't really carve up sociopathy, psychopathy, and ASPD as three distinct phenomena (see my comment). So the issue is that she's decided that that's what she wants to do, but it doesn't have adequate basis in facts and research.
As someone who has looked into sociopathy quite a bit and has had the misfortune of dealing with a lot of folks like this, I really feel like this author just wants to have her cake and eat it so to speak. She wants to tell everybody that she can't feel remorse or empathy but then also wants to backtrack it a bit and say oh yeah but we feel love if we learn a certain way. I don't have any ill will toward this person and I'm not saying we should, but it is very much in a sociopaths instinct to lie and manipulate a narrative. And of course if she's promoting her book and is on a public relations campaign that's exactly what she's going to do. Take everything she says with a grain of salt and if your gut tells you not to trust someone who has admitted that they struggle to feel any kind of empathy or connection with fellow human beings, trust your gut. Don't trust anyone who's capable of callousness and cruelty with no remorse. They will tell you anything to trust them. Don't trust anyone with sociopath qualities and certainly don't trust this person who's trying to give sociopaths a public image makeover. This is some high octane spin. Also she keeps misusing the word neurotypical. Maybe some people believe this, but those of us who know the truth of what these people are capable of, stay true to yourself and don't fall for it
So true! It sounded to good to be true. Like I wanted it to be true so that I could believe that the sociopaths I deal with regularly aren’t hopeless. It made me think oh maybe there’s a magical one out there and I need to understand better and get this book 😹
Do you think if someone wanted to manipulate you they'll tell you Oh you know what I can't feel empathy 🤦🏻♀️ you literally described what any author does when selling a book, maybe start playing couch psychologist
You’re not one at all. You’re in autistic spectrum. I can read my own breed, I am diagnosed one with ASPD, schizoid. Even the women on interview she isn’t one, she is more of an attention seeking person. Sociopaths aren’t attention seeking individuals at all. You just gave yourself away. You have alexithymia, I can read you like a book. Stop labeling yourself, you aren’t one. I can read my own nature who truly has ASPD.
(first five minutes) physiological means biological and learned behaviours means self-deception (which is normally considered an occult thing to understand it's part of why drugs are illegal and they teach it in the military and police desert storm par example) search (youtube) mrrhexx psuedo dragons and faerie dragons (it's humanist psychology) it means psychopaths hang with the guys sociopaths chill with the women loving/possible/honest existentialism is accessible to a few, poorly represented by the uninspired and as a subjective thing it's value is only what you make of it negotiable thing (i'm drunk) means it's "mercantile" (!)
I find this really curious. Emma says she struggles to understand what it's like to be a sociopath and Patric struggles to illustrate (to a neurotypical woman) what it feels like. However she could simply say-as a woman-consider how you feel towards your male partner. You "love" him, but you don't feel guilt about hurting him or empathy if he suffers. And contrast that to the love you feel for your children. Where you feel guilt if you harm them in any way and empathy if they suffer. It seems to me that illustrates the point perfectly. It's a missed opportunity. She could have got a real (if limited) insight into what it feels like to be a sociopath. And probably identify with it in the process. Neurotypical men feel guilt and empathy towards partners in the same way they feel it towards their children. Sociopathic men don't.
Not being a sociopath doesn’t make you neurotypical. Most people wouldn’t kill someone if they thought they could get away with it. Imagine having a therapist who had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming, doesn’t feel guilt shame or empathy, and does things to maintain the relationship, not because they actually care about the person.
Imagine being someone who missed the entire point of the video and wrote a comment thinking like a neurotypical that can't understand neurological disorders and therefore decided that everyone has to think like them because they don't understand that people think differently 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
@@gbdchannel2252 "Sociopathy", which is medically diagnosed as Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) is a neurological disorder that falls under the 'neurodivergent' umbrella.
Someone said to me about a year ago that they don’t have any sort of feelings when others suffer. They don’t feel anything. They don’t care if others are hurt, they can’t feel what they’re going through. It genuinely scared me and I reacted internally in a hateful way. It made me mad, it made me feel like something was *wrong* with them, and it was because at that point I felt I couldn’t trust them. We weren’t close, so it was easy for me to decide that. I decided to tell others that also knew them, and I hate that I acted that way. In my mind, I was protecting, but I was also lashing out because there had been various instances where I felt misunderstood by them, and it was likely because of what is possibly sociopathy. I was being childish and selfish and hateful. Having awareness about this is so important. It’s just as important as people having awareness about adhd, which is something I struggle with and it controls so much of my life. It’s not my fault I have adhd. It’s not someone’s fault that they are sociopath, and I knew that before, but I still villainized it because of what I’ve experienced or seen before. I’m glad I’m becoming more aware. I don’t want to make someone feel othered because of their disorder. I want to make them feel understood and accepted.
@PlebianGorilla We should never understand or accept sociopaths or psychopaths. They are inherent dangerous without exception and pretending they're not is incredibly naive. By all means be open minded, but not so much that your brain falls out.
@@CrashBoomBang78 I think you’re going into this without a brain. Not understanding them? Why wouldn’t I want to understand them? Wouldn’t that be the best way to protect myself? To know exactly how they operate? I’m not jumping to bring one in my life, but I am willing, because I think it’s intelligent, to look at it from an objective point of view; they’re animals (as we all are) that don’t have properly functioning brains, that isn’t something they chose, and it doesn’t mean I should attack them. Having hatred is a waste of my time and energy. If anything, attacking them would put me in a worse position. It would make me more vulnerable. Caution is necessary, but your response is really annoying and small-brained… and ableist.
@@CrashBoomBang78 why would I choose to not understand something-wouldn’t that make me more vulnerable because I’m not seeing the full picture? I’m not saying I’m going to go get married to a sociopath or even invite a friendship with one, but I think it’s of a low-intelligence mindset to say I should do what I did previously and attack them. That puts me in an even more vulnerable situation, and is acting based on emotion rather than being objective. Ableism just isn’t necessary, tactful, or reasonable. I can choose to understand someone and treat them well without choosing to trust that they will have my best interest in mind. If a person functions in this world in an abnormal way, at least in this case, it’s not their fault. Why would I harbor hatred for them? That’s silly and small-brained. I can treat them with kindness. Also, if someone is a sociopath but they make the conscious decision to do the “right” thing from a place that isn’t based on how it makes them feel emotionally but rather what they believe to be the most positive thing for their fellow humans… that takes strength and is even more commendable than someone who did something good because the alternative made them feel bad. It’s selfless.
@PlebianGorilla They don't make decisions based on "what is best for their fellow humans", that's exactly the point. They make decision based on what is best for THEM. No matter what it takes or how much it hurts others. That's what defines these disorders and also what makes them inherently harmful to other people. A sociopath or psychopath ALWAYS acts out of self-interest, that is the driving force for literally everything they do. Every single, little thing. They can alter or modify the way they treat others IF IT SERVES THEM, but even for such a small change to happen they need to be extremely self-aware AND deeply in therapy with a therapist who possesses a degree of expertise in how to handle these disorders specifically. And ninety-nine percent of people with ASPD aren't going to tick those boxes, thus they are going to be deeply and firmly rooted in their own pathology and disordered responses, other people be damned. These are called personality disorders for a reason; meaning that the way someone thinks and functions is so deeply embedded into them that it's who they are. There is no separating the core of who they are from their diagnosis, it is LITERALLY in their personality. To recognize this is not ableism, it's merely a factual observation. ASPD is unique in the way it functions because it is the only personality disorder where the affected part lacks empathy, guilt, and remorse. So while all personality disorders can be toxic when left untreated and unchecked, this one factor makes all the difference regarding how a person suffering from it is going to move through life and subsequently harm others along the way. And when the disordered party has no interest in changing, the only thing that's left to do is educating people about how they operate so that people who happen to cross paths with them, know how to identify them and keep themselves safe. It is simply damage control.
Interesting interview. I have a segment in my up coming novel that explores concepts like these. Would be nice to incorporate some of this into the story :D
So a clinician or mental health professional would write down in their notes “ secondary psychopathy”, since there doesn’t seem to be a “sociopath” in the DSM and you’re saying the diagnostic criteria for aspd is not what is used ??
I just finished Patric’s book after watching her do a number of interviews. It was very thoughtful, insightful and well written. It gave me a little more insight into my own spectrum but, I will forever remain as the gray man due to the stigma. As for a cure well, I believe that is a little over optimistic.
is the interviewer mixing up sociopathy and psychopathy like… a lot? i get it most people do & i’m glad she asked about it in order to learn this but 😬 some people are just going to ignore this author’s responses to why ASPD and sociopathy are different…
The thing is that everything in research and diagnostics isn't as clear cut as this author describes it. In fact, the explanation that sociopathy is social (and thus can be trained) and psychopathy is genetic (and can't) isn't the majority opinion and sociopathy does not have its own diagnostics. Psychopathy and ASPD have. I think heavy selection bias on the research is shown here to fit the authors own narrative (which is understandable if it fits her lived experience, but we shouldn't forget that she isn't the expert on the diagnostic side - far from it)
I feel empathy is a natural part of understanding, although I could be wrong. My understanding is that you aren't telling them their actions or way of being is okay, you're saying "I understand why you work that way/ why you would do that. Although I don't condone, it makes sense to me."
What? How is empathy learned? Does that mean empaths were raised differently? Kids from the same household can be complete opposites - to me it’s an instinct that isn’t learned - but what do I know - I don’t enjoy feeling someone’s pain to the point it can be overwhelming. But I can’t switch it off. She’s obviously a liberal.
Sometimes you can judge/assess a situation better without getting emotional. Like if your car slips on the road. You need to stay in control. It won’t help to scream and cry and flail around.
I am an empath, I do not stop empathizing with cluster B, I don't think that is an accurate statement..but I would say there is at least some diminishment of my empathy, or at least I know I'm not going to invest much in a relationship with them which wouod involve caring, because I know how futile it is to care about them ultimately in most cases.. even though it does help, as long as I don't allow them to manipulate me and keep strong boundaries, which I've gotten really good at..because cluster B tendencies are to use empaths' empathy to endlessly manipulate them for control. But fo say we don't empathizd or care about other human beings pretty much defies the definition of what being an empath is so..
Well, just read this comment section, if you think that the point they were trying to make is not true ;). There are people out there who say, if someone has no empathy themselves they are not human anymore. This is called dehumanisation. And we all know what "normal" people who are able to feel empathy are capable of, if they are made believe that some groups of people are a threat. They do not see the individual anymore.
I find this really curious. Emma says she struggles to understand what it's like to be a sociopath and Patric struggles to illustrate (to a neurotypical woman) what it feels like. However she could simply say-as a woman-consider how you feel towards your male partner. You "love" him, but you don't feel guilt about hurting him or empathy if he suffers. And contrast that to the love you feel for your children. Where you feel guilt if you harm them in any way and empathy if they suffer. It seems to me that illustrates the point perfectly. It's a missed opportunity. She could have got a real (if limited) insight into what it feels like to be a sociopath. And probably identify with it in the process. Neurotypical men feel guilt and empathy towards partners in the same way they feel it towards their children. Sociopathic men don't.
I find this really curious. Emma says she struggles to understand what it's like to be a sociopath and Patric struggles to illustrate (to a neurotypical woman) what it feels like. However she could simply say-as a woman-consider how you feel towards your male partner. You "love" him, but you don't feel guilt about hurting him or empathy if he suffers. And contrast that to the love you feel for your children. Where you feel guilt if you harm them in any way and empathy if they suffer. It seems to me that illustrates the point perfectly. It's a missed opportunity. She could have got a real (if limited) insight into what it feels like to be a sociopath. And probably identify with it in the process. Neurotypical men feel guilt and empathy towards partners in the same way they feel it towards their children. Sociopathic men don't.
@@Elspm No. I don't think thats true. I think women feel shame if they're SEEN to have hurt their partner (because it makes them look bad in the eyes of others), but I don't think they experience guilt for it. Guilt is very different. Women want men to have no weaknesses (weakness in men triggers a disgust response in women), so if they hurt their partner they don't really recognise his suffering- they believe he should just "Man Up" and get over it. Because if he's hurt he cant protect her. You hear that constantly from women. They're very self referential in that regard. So as I say, if neurotypical women want to know what it feels like to be a sociopath/psychopath, they need only consider their feelings towards their male partners. Bingo! There you go!☺
@@sammyb1651 well I'm a woman who strongly empathises with her male partner. So forgive me that I find your confidence ill-founded. The null hypothesis would be that there is no difference in ability to empathise with their sexual partners based on gender. I have seen no evidence basis that this isn't the case.
@@Elspm Forgive me, you've personalised things. Women have a tendency to do this. As I say women are very self referential. You have to de-personalise the point I'm making. It isn't about you so let us put that to one side. It's a population level observation. At population level, women (generally) can be observed to exhibit a dearth of empathy/guilt when it comes to their male partners. Contrast this strongly with the empathy they express towards their children/friends etc. Bingo!☺
@@Elspm Forgive me. You've personalised things. VVomen have a tendency to do this because they're very self referential. It's not about you, so let us put that to one side. It's a population level observation. At population level women (generally) can be observed to exhibit a dearth of empathy towards their male partners. Contrast this strongly with the empathy they express towards children/friends. Bingo!😊
@@EdenthelRei Agreed. That annoyed me too, as an autistic person who was in a relationship with a diagnosed sociopath/psychopath. I would say for them - purely mental. Her confusing the two was a red flag.
She reminds me of Amy Dunne from Gone Girl. HATE that the interviewer said that a memoir taught her a lot about a psychological issue. Girl, you wanna learn, go read some actual studies and some books written by PSYCHOLOGISTS.
I agree, tho most learning is through real-life examples. You can learn things you can't get out of a DSM, and psychologists are limited to their own experiences. Humans are social animals. We use stories to connect with others. What better than the storyteller themselves to humanize us all. I had a psychotic break and after talking to the psychologist about my schozoaffective experience in a hospital group, he said thank you for giving me more empathy toward people with mental illness.
Great interview, thank you! Not all people with ASPD are monsters, some are very high functioning, moral, and committed to making the world a better place because they have an ethically positive personal code that they refuse to violate and they realize that the alternative is prison or an early grave.
@@RomyElizabethspot on. Truth is, there are a lot of people running around with ASPD, both diagnosed and undiagnosed, just like every other personality disorder. Most people with personality disorders are high functioning, get therapy/professional help, and function fine in the world. It’s the low functioning 1% that cause 50-70% of the problems.
@justines1919 THIS. I recommend the book "A Generation Of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America" by Bruce Cannon Gibney, it talks about exactly this.
With the little amount of study I have done on ASPD and the terms sociopathy and Psychopathy... this lady has no clue what she is talking about, and I don't believe a word she is saying.
Many people are commenting with questions that are answered in the book. She knows that sociopathy is not in the current version of the DSM and that is a big reason for her diving into research on sociopathy and psychology in general. I loved the book, highly recommend
The problem isn't that sociopathy isn't in the DSM. Psychopathy isn't in the DSM but it's a recognized and well-studied condition. The problem is that she's just seems to be deciding what she wants "sociopathy" to mean.
@@aporia25 oh ok I get what you are saying, do you know why sociopathy isn’t a widely used term and/or a term that id studied? From what I remember in the book, the author was interested in sociopathy because she was exhibiting signs of psychopathy but on a smaller scale I believe. Idk, it’s definitely a very interesting topic!
Sure it is a spectrum, however more should be talked about that many of these people have a line of victims of their emotional abuse and manipulation behind them who they have relied on for their daily dopamine. It's short sighted to talk about only causing physical pain, this type of crime for sure is a lesser percent among the whole spectrum but the emotional abuse is probably a major one, it's just that they choose their victims and do not treat everyone the same.
More should be talked about? In general? That’s basically all the talking going on these days. TH-cam is full of ”how to spot a narcissist and sociopath and to avoid them” and straight up demonization. Nice to have some actual information and representation
i think the current trend to normalize cluster b personalities is gonna cause more harm than good. yes, they're people too, but abusive behavior is literally in the diagnostic criteria. i can have a little more sympathy for histrionics and borderlines because lack of empathy isn't in the criteria iirc, but i can't say the same for aspd and npd.
@@sleepylilac69 trend to normalize? Most posts and ”news” are along the lines ”how to spot a narcissist and avoid them”. Aspd and npd should be known as they are, personality disorders, not as synonyms for bad people. People are more than their disorders, and they actually can be aware of their disorders
I've met two sociopaths in my time. Both really enjoyed conversing with me as an open autistic person. Not manipulatively. The 2nd one was extremely lovely and very kind. I was aware he didn't feel things like I did and I enjoyed meeting and interacting with him anyway. As many are very likeable. Her eyes and his have the same look in them. No comment on the meaning of that. He was morally aligned and treated me better by far than my bpd partner had. We split for lifestyle differences. I don't think every sociopath is evil, but I also would never probably not have my wits about me in interactions. The 1st was extremely toxic and manipulative but he told me if he could feel love he thinks he could love me. It's as random as anything else to me.
I read her book, and she seems more likely on the psychopath spectrum, as she had a pretty normal childhood. She's a born psychopath, not a " created" sociopath. Either way, she's dangerous to anyone who might truly care about her, as she will lie, cheat, steal, gaslight to achieve her goals
Can not understand how so many of these people can deny her reality and refuse to understand how sociopathy is a disorder of the brain. When she’s being open about something so stigmatized in order to destigmatize it. Her experience of emotions being not neurotypical does not make her inherently dark sided and people with ADHD autism and OCD are also neurodivergent. So many comments are bragging about choosing not to empathize whereas the sociopathic person isn’t choosing- but can actively choose to not be apathetic!
It’s because we mainly see people with sociopathy committing extremely cold actions. Many people with this disorder slip through the cracks and never know that’s what they have, and others don’t either because they’re fantastic as masking. So it’s great that she created this. We fear sociopathy. Youre right, we do need to destigmatize it. But we need to also understand why people have this fear and come at it from a perspective that they can understand instead of villainizing. It’s a hard thing to try to rationalize trusting someone who doesn’t have the sort of emotions attached to a moral compass that others do, but yes, that is something we should try to learn about.
Just because it's a disorder of the brain, doesn't mean it shouldn't be interpersonally stigmatized. Pedophilia is a disorder of the brain as well, and just because they don't act on it- Do you think they should be let around children? Sociopaths could be fine employees, but you should NOT let them into your personal life.
14:00 tell me about it. I have Borderline Personality Disorder and anytime I get dis-regulated, neurotypical people shun. Especially in this ‘red flag’ world
I just think there are so many types of people even if they are sociopaths. But to be diagnosed with ASPD they have to have committed really off the line acts like crimes repeatedly since childhood. I wonder what she means by being a sociopath but not diagnosed ASPD.
Patric Gagne is a highly intelligent woman who worked incredibly hard to understand herself, and to require herself to participate in society in the most positive way possible. I am reading her book which has taught me much about myself (not a sociopath, so-called 'normal'). She is honest and confessed about herself and what she has done -- more so than 99.9% of people. I have great respect for her.
As a therapist with midrange empathy, I can absolutely see how someone with low empathy could be a great therapist and more inoculated against burnout! I find my highly empathetic colleagues struggle with overwhelm at times
She is warm and charming for a reason: its calculated. Everything with sociopaths is. Believe me, if she was to drop the mask and tell you what she really thinks your jaw would be on the floor. She openly admits that she had her husband proofread her book and he would come to her in shock at something he read saying "you cant put this in there!". And she didnt.
actually, it's the other way around. She wanted to put certain stuff in the book, but her husband told her not to do it. He was the one who insisted on proofreading and who wanted certain stuff removed. 1) Why would you lie about what she said? 2) If she lied saying what I mentioned above, why would she do it? She's definitly capable of discerning herself what she can put in the book and what she can't, so why ask her husband? It kinda seems like you're trying to demonize her
@user-vz4gg6cs4l Him reading it was for proof reading purposes. If she didn't care she would've left those parts in, but she didn't. She removed them. So again: proofreading.
She does know that, you'll have to read the book to hear more about the extensive research Patric has done into her own diagnosis and the way the different terms have been defined over time.
Wouldn't the urge to hurt animals be more due to the sociopath's lack of remorse? Often violence is quite normalized to a sociopathic child. Interesting interview nonetheless.
Wanting to feel something is the root desire. Remorse would for a normal person would be the metaphorical safety rail that stops a normal person to hurt the animal.
@@guitarlessonsnow3431 well the short answer is again the desire to feel something gets the ball rolling to do something bad empathy is indeed different than remorse that it doesn’t happen after the act but it’s the same situation that the emotion is a guard rail to stop bad act.
@@AliceVFame Well in Patrick’s book she describes it along the lines of being only able to go on so long while not being stimulated. Like eventually you’re gonna break from the prolonged feeling of apathy. So she chose to do “minor” bad things” like technically stealing peoples car n going to stranger’s funerals are examples on top of my head. Anyway to finally answer your question LITERALLY ANYTHING. I totally recommend you read or listen the book. Though in my personal opinion it kinda falls off a lil towards the end.
its crazy how some of these comments miss the mark completely. judging a strangers empathy while clearly lacking ur own. empathy is something that CAN be learned and nurtured if one is willing enough. this is why its imperative that we extend our empathy to everyone, even if they dont reciprocate. a lot ppl mix up being empathetic w being 'soft' and easily manipulated which just isnt the case. to me its about learning how to feel for others and being able to put urself in their shoes. that doesnt mean that you necessarily agree with or feel bad for that person. i see it more as a means to better urself mentally and emotionally in order to be able to function in society (speaking as a neurodivergent person who still struggles w empathy at times)
@wujuandrea That is only partially true. A sociopath can POTENTIALLY learn cognitive empathy and perhaps choose to apply it if it benefits them in some way, but they will never experience emotional empathy because their brains are literally unable, that's HOW the disorder works.
Oh wow, so honesty and forthrightness are traits on Hare’s checklist? Crazy! 😂 I just interviewed a tobacco exactly the other day and he said he doesn’t know WHAT everyone is getting upset about, it’s totally safe. 😅 Wild. Just wild.
She may or may not address it in the book but autism and sociopathy are very different even if they have some similar traits. As she says, sociopathy is a personality disorder. Sociopathic people can be very good at social situations, whereas autistic people often struggle with decoding what neurotypicals are doing, socially speaking. That's just one of at least several differences I can think of off the top of my head, so I imagine looking at the DSM-V might be the best way to answer your own question.
They're completely different conditions. Autistics do not usually experience a restricted range of emotions or lack of empathy. Those are inaccurate stereotypes. We do however communicate differently to neuro typical people.
I'm autistic and I believe some autistic people can be classified as having limited emotion/empathy, but most autistic people seem to have hyper empathy. For instance, I can't watch gory movies because it physically hurts me to see people suffer. In autism studies they sometimes use the terms "affective empathy" and "cognitive empathy" to differentiate the difference between mentally understanding what someone is thinking or feeling (cognitive) and caring about/feeling how someone feels (affective)
I know they are completely different diagnoses, I just feel that from only watching this video of hers, that it reminded me of autism type of neurodivergence.
What is your point? Why shouldn't she be allowed to make money from her book that deals with her life and her condition? Should only neurotypical people be allowed to write about sociopathy and make money from it? We all work with whatever we have to make a living 🤷 Stop being hateful and jealous
Someone is circulating a smear campaign against me to certain platforms suggesting I’m a sociopath. And that I’m guilty of crimes- I’m looking to prosecute this person. I’m certainly not diagnosed aspd - do not have this personality. And I’m the victim of a hacktivist and stalker who has been harassing me at my home for 7 years.
I would suggest talking to the police but I don't know if that will go well. Even if they're bad at their job, though, maybe it's good to at least have the report?
I think Megan has NPD as she is JUST like someone I grew up with who had NPD. Like so many of her behaviours and facial expressions are EXACTLY the same. But yes, it’s essentially the same spectrum of personality disorders, so very similar.
@@yfoogwhat are your credentials? Have you done tests on her, have you analyzed her? Are you an expert in NPD? Because even they have difficulties diagnosing NPD
No most people would not kill someone if they could get away with it.
Ur ex 😒
Right??
yes
Yeah, right. This is where I stopped listening.
I shudder at the thought, for whatever reason it would later be in my head forever, the guilt, I'd feel repulsed and alienated by myself, like an ultimate betrayal of my inner core. I'm an atheist and I feel sick even imagining a scenario. My psychology-science guess is that maybe people who COULD do that and forget about it by compartmentalising it for the rest of their lives - simply assume all people would do the same for gain if they could get away with it?
Her first answer doesn't make sense. She says that the difference between psychopathy and sociopathy is that psychopaths are different in that psychopaths can't feel love, empathy, shame and guilt, whilst sociopaths can learn to feel these emotions. This is not how the distinction is made by experts.
It's a bit complicated, but: psychopathy isn't in the DSM, but is a widely recognized and studied condition diagnosed by on a test developed by Robert Hare called the Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R). The checklist includes behaviours and emotional dispositions such as lack of empathy. Psychopathy is thought to have a genetic component but the severity of the condition is often mediated by the environment, like whether you have a loving and stable family life as a child.
Sociopathy isn't in the DSM either, but Antisocial Personality Disorder is. ASPD is similar to psychopathy, but the diagnosing criteria are purely behavioural rather than being about mental or emotional states. Generally, it is true that ASPD is thought to be more acquired (due to abusive parenting, for example) and so in that sense can be more treatable than psychopathy. But this doesn't fit with what Gagne says, which suggests that children can be born sociopathic (as distinct from being born with psychopathic traits). That's not really how things are understood.
The video says that Gagne is a "diagnosed sociopath". As what I said above should make clear, you can't be a diagnosed sociopath. You can be diagnosed with psychopathy or ASPD. So, which is it in her case? Since ASPD is based on behaviour, such as a criminal history, and she lacks that - that seems unlikely. Another article says that a psychologist diagnosed her with psychopathy using the Hare Checklist. So, if anything, she's a psychopath. But I should note that the Psychopathy Checklist takes a lot of training to use, and so psychopathy isn't something that can be diagnosed by any run-of-the-mill psychologist. So, maybe she's neither.
aspd type 1 ("psychopath") and type 2 ("sociopath"...
@@HumanimalChannel There's no differentiation of ASPD into types in the DSM...
Did you read the book? She talks all about sociopathy, psychopathy and ASPD in the book and how there are many important nuances between the three. Her interview answer didn’t cover the extent of how she covered it in the book (short interview).
@erinpletch2223 I am an academic whose research is adjacent to this area. I've actually read a lot of peer-reviewed research (and the DSM).
My entire point is that experts don't make the distinctions she does. I'm not sure she's been diagnosed with anything, so I don't know what her personal experience establishes, and she has no track record of scholarship on this topic (such as peer-reviewed publications).
Interesting take. I have read about what you are talking about (probably not to the same extent) because I used to be a social worker at a psychiatric hospital. I did talk to a LMHC regularly who was researching personality disorders. He felt that more needs to be done because most of the time the only way these people are going to be studied is if they are being required to be interviewed/assessed by a professional. So he thinks because these people typically don’t have the tendency to speak to a therapist or get mental health help for daily/typical concerns, we’ve mostly developed a very extremist checklist. In other words he believes that these personality types and disorders can appear as a spectrum, sort of like how we are figuring out in recent years that just about all disorders have a spectrum. Like you did I have some doubts about how she came to her conclusion but I feel like she may still be on to something. What she’s describing and the way she is talking I certainly wouldn’t describe as ASD. I also don’t know that it sounds like depression. I feel that maybe she knows her life and was a therapist so I feel like I mostly trust what she is saying.
Very well done interview, Emma! Would love more in this vein - interviewing people who've written memoirs and getting to hear their view on what their story should teach others.
I don’t know how I ended up watching this, but that was really really interesting and insightful!
Many terms that are used here are not uses the same way that professionals do. For one, 'sociopath' is not in the DSM so I'm not sure what she means about being diagnosed with that. It's funny considering she said she's done a lot of reseach. I recommend you listen to professionals discuss these topics. Take care!
If you read the book, you would understand what she means when using the term sociopath.
In the book she talks many times about how sociopathy is no longer in the DSM (but it was at one point), and the main theme of the book is her bringing attention to the fact that there are many important nuances between sociopathy, psychopathy, and ASPD.
@@erinpletch2223 Researchers in this area don't really carve up sociopathy, psychopathy, and ASPD as three distinct phenomena (see my comment). So the issue is that she's decided that that's what she wants to do, but it doesn't have adequate basis in facts and research.
My ex was a psychologist AND a DIAGNOSED sociopath. Even if it's not in the DSM (though he was diagnosed back in the 70s), one can still be diagnosed.
@@gbdchannel2252 interesting. I wonder where do the criteria come from in those cases. Is there another manual that professionals use?
As someone who has looked into sociopathy quite a bit and has had the misfortune of dealing with a lot of folks like this, I really feel like this author just wants to have her cake and eat it so to speak. She wants to tell everybody that she can't feel remorse or empathy but then also wants to backtrack it a bit and say oh yeah but we feel love if we learn a certain way. I don't have any ill will toward this person and I'm not saying we should, but it is very much in a sociopaths instinct to lie and manipulate a narrative. And of course if she's promoting her book and is on a public relations campaign that's exactly what she's going to do. Take everything she says with a grain of salt and if your gut tells you not to trust someone who has admitted that they struggle to feel any kind of empathy or connection with fellow human beings, trust your gut. Don't trust anyone who's capable of callousness and cruelty with no remorse. They will tell you anything to trust them. Don't trust anyone with sociopath qualities and certainly don't trust this person who's trying to give sociopaths a public image makeover.
This is some high octane spin. Also she keeps misusing the word neurotypical. Maybe some people believe this, but those of us who know the truth of what these people are capable of, stay true to yourself and don't fall for it
So true! It sounded to good to be true. Like I wanted it to be true so that I could believe that the sociopaths I deal with regularly aren’t hopeless. It made me think oh maybe there’s a magical one out there and I need to understand better and get this book 😹
@@JillianSiobhanMal more understanding is always a good thing!
Do you think if someone wanted to manipulate you they'll tell you Oh you know what I can't feel empathy 🤦🏻♀️ you literally described what any author does when selling a book, maybe start playing couch psychologist
Yes!!! As a psychology student I had the same thought
@@vero9348yes but she is inventing, is not sincere her take on the topic
I can’t wait to read it!! Thank you for interviewing the author! Such great Q&A!
Almost finished with her book. Very interesting. She did almost strangle a cat to death, so it was indeed in her blood to inflict pain.
Thanks for interviewing her! I read the book, and I really enjoyed it. I found it eye-opening.
Im a diagnosed sociopath and I'd love to come on the podcast ❤
@ChocolateAutizzy I saw your interview on Special Books by Special Kids channel
@@iangoldie6396Same! It’s nice to see you here!
Alexithymia
You’re not one at all. You’re in autistic spectrum. I can read my own breed, I am diagnosed one with ASPD, schizoid. Even the women on interview she isn’t one, she is more of an attention seeking person. Sociopaths aren’t attention seeking individuals at all. You just gave yourself away. You have alexithymia, I can read you like a book. Stop labeling yourself, you aren’t one. I can read my own nature who truly has ASPD.
(first five minutes) physiological means biological and learned behaviours means self-deception (which is normally considered an occult thing to understand it's part of why drugs are illegal and they teach it in the military and police desert storm par example)
search (youtube) mrrhexx psuedo dragons and faerie dragons (it's humanist psychology) it means psychopaths hang with the guys sociopaths chill with the women
loving/possible/honest existentialism is accessible to a few, poorly represented by the uninspired and as a subjective thing it's value is only what you make of it
negotiable thing (i'm drunk) means it's "mercantile" (!)
Wow. That was an incredible point at the end. I am a counselor-in-training, and I found this interview incredibly eye-opening. Thank you.
Thank you for this interview. I'm on my library's waiting list for this book and now I'm even more motivated to read it.
This was very interesting, and it was surprising to hear that up to 5 % people have these tendencies. It explains a lot.
I find this really curious. Emma says she struggles to understand what it's like to be a sociopath and Patric struggles to illustrate (to a neurotypical woman) what it feels like. However she could simply say-as a woman-consider how you feel towards your male partner. You "love" him, but you don't feel guilt about hurting him or empathy if he suffers. And contrast that to the love you feel for your children. Where you feel guilt if you harm them in any way and empathy if they suffer. It seems to me that illustrates the point perfectly. It's a missed opportunity. She could have got a real (if limited) insight into what it feels like to be a sociopath. And probably identify with it in the process.
Neurotypical men feel guilt and empathy towards partners in the same way they feel it towards their children. Sociopathic men don't.
Not being a sociopath doesn’t make you neurotypical.
Most people wouldn’t kill someone if they thought they could get away with it.
Imagine having a therapist who had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming,
doesn’t feel guilt shame or empathy, and does things to maintain the relationship,
not because they actually care about the person.
Imagine being someone who missed the entire point of the video and wrote a comment thinking like a neurotypical that can't understand neurological disorders and therefore decided that everyone has to think like them because they don't understand that people think differently 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
@@DontCareL0L the entire point of the video? To promote a book .
@@DontCareL0L I have never heard of sociopathy being a neurodivergent issue before.
@@carmelle2665
Yessss!
@@gbdchannel2252 "Sociopathy", which is medically diagnosed as Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) is a neurological disorder that falls under the 'neurodivergent' umbrella.
NO, sweetheart. Most people would NOT kill someone if they could get away with it!
Vile to laugh about it aswell. Couldn’t watch after that. 🤮
Very candid. Well done.
That book seems incredibly interesting.
Someone said to me about a year ago that they don’t have any sort of feelings when others suffer. They don’t feel anything. They don’t care if others are hurt, they can’t feel what they’re going through. It genuinely scared me and I reacted internally in a hateful way. It made me mad, it made me feel like something was *wrong* with them, and it was because at that point I felt I couldn’t trust them. We weren’t close, so it was easy for me to decide that. I decided to tell others that also knew them, and I hate that I acted that way. In my mind, I was protecting, but I was also lashing out because there had been various instances where I felt misunderstood by them, and it was likely because of what is possibly sociopathy. I was being childish and selfish and hateful. Having awareness about this is so important. It’s just as important as people having awareness about adhd, which is something I struggle with and it controls so much of my life. It’s not my fault I have adhd. It’s not someone’s fault that they are sociopath, and I knew that before, but I still villainized it because of what I’ve experienced or seen before. I’m glad I’m becoming more aware. I don’t want to make someone feel othered because of their disorder. I want to make them feel understood and accepted.
@PlebianGorilla We should never understand or accept sociopaths or psychopaths. They are inherent dangerous without exception and pretending they're not is incredibly naive. By all means be open minded, but not so much that your brain falls out.
@@CrashBoomBang78 😹I see nothing wrong or judgey about telling others someone is a verified sociopath or psychopath and to stay safe.
@@CrashBoomBang78 I think you’re going into this without a brain. Not understanding them? Why wouldn’t I want to understand them? Wouldn’t that be the best way to protect myself? To know exactly how they operate? I’m not jumping to bring one in my life, but I am willing, because I think it’s intelligent, to look at it from an objective point of view; they’re animals (as we all are) that don’t have properly functioning brains, that isn’t something they chose, and it doesn’t mean I should attack them. Having hatred is a waste of my time and energy. If anything, attacking them would put me in a worse position. It would make me more vulnerable. Caution is necessary, but your response is really annoying and small-brained… and ableist.
@@CrashBoomBang78 why would I choose to not understand something-wouldn’t that make me more vulnerable because I’m not seeing the full picture? I’m not saying I’m going to go get married to a sociopath or even invite a friendship with one, but I think it’s of a low-intelligence mindset to say I should do what I did previously and attack them. That puts me in an even more vulnerable situation, and is acting based on emotion rather than being objective. Ableism just isn’t necessary, tactful, or reasonable. I can choose to understand someone and treat them well without choosing to trust that they will have my best interest in mind.
If a person functions in this world in an abnormal way, at least in this case, it’s not their fault. Why would I harbor hatred for them? That’s silly and small-brained. I can treat them with kindness. Also, if someone is a sociopath but they make the conscious decision to do the “right” thing from a place that isn’t based on how it makes them feel emotionally but rather what they believe to be the most positive thing for their fellow humans… that takes strength and is even more commendable than someone who did something good because the alternative made them feel bad. It’s selfless.
@PlebianGorilla They don't make decisions based on "what is best for their fellow humans", that's exactly the point. They make decision based on what is best for THEM. No matter what it takes or how much it hurts others. That's what defines these disorders and also what makes them inherently harmful to other people. A sociopath or psychopath ALWAYS acts out of self-interest, that is the driving force for literally everything they do. Every single, little thing. They can alter or modify the way they treat others IF IT SERVES THEM, but even for such a small change to happen they need to be extremely self-aware AND deeply in therapy with a therapist who possesses a degree of expertise in how to handle these disorders specifically. And ninety-nine percent of people with ASPD aren't going to tick those boxes, thus they are going to be deeply and firmly rooted in their own pathology and disordered responses, other people be damned. These are called personality disorders for a reason; meaning that the way someone thinks and functions is so deeply embedded into them that it's who they are. There is no separating the core of who they are from their diagnosis, it is LITERALLY in their personality. To recognize this is not ableism, it's merely a factual observation.
ASPD is unique in the way it functions because it is the only personality disorder where the affected part lacks empathy, guilt, and remorse. So while all personality disorders can be toxic when left untreated and unchecked, this one factor makes all the difference regarding how a person suffering from it is going to move through life and subsequently harm others along the way. And when the disordered party has no interest in changing, the only thing that's left to do is educating people about how they operate so that people who happen to cross paths with them, know how to identify them and keep themselves safe. It is simply damage control.
Interesting interview. I have a segment in my up coming novel that explores concepts like these. Would be nice to incorporate some of this into the story :D
Is sociopathy a recognized diagnosis in American psychiatry still? I think it was abandoned a long time ago?
Yes that's true, which Patric discusses in a lot of detail in the book
So a clinician or mental health professional would write down in their notes “ secondary psychopathy”, since there doesn’t seem to be a “sociopath” in the DSM and you’re saying the diagnostic criteria for aspd is not what is used ??
Great interview, congrats!
I just finished Patric’s book after watching her do a number of interviews. It was very thoughtful, insightful and well written. It gave me a little more insight into my own spectrum but, I will forever remain as the gray man due to the stigma. As for a cure well, I believe that is a little over optimistic.
This was so interesting. Thank you ❤
She seems cold and robotic to me, not warm and charming.
The Mayo Clinic says antisocial personality disorder and sociopathy are known as the same thing…are they wrong or is this woman wrong?? 😳
You'll have to read the book to hear about her specific experiences in investigating her own diagnosis. It's very interesting!
is the interviewer mixing up sociopathy and psychopathy like… a lot? i get it most people do & i’m glad she asked about it in order to learn this but 😬 some people are just going to ignore this author’s responses to why ASPD and sociopathy are different…
The thing is that everything in research and diagnostics isn't as clear cut as this author describes it. In fact, the explanation that sociopathy is social (and thus can be trained) and psychopathy is genetic (and can't) isn't the majority opinion and sociopathy does not have its own diagnostics. Psychopathy and ASPD have. I think heavy selection bias on the research is shown here to fit the authors own narrative (which is understandable if it fits her lived experience, but we shouldn't forget that she isn't the expert on the diagnostic side - far from it)
I don’t feel guilty about not empathizing with sociopaths because I know that they don’t empathize with me 🤷🏽♀️
But they can’t.. and it isn’t their choice.
Unless you are directly or indirectly benifiting them they literally ignore your existence
Exactly sociopaths and psychopaths are fake🤷🏾♀️
@@sashmo8the moment a sociopath see you are empathic it’s the moment they will start manipulating and using you.
I feel empathy is a natural part of understanding, although I could be wrong. My understanding is that you aren't telling them their actions or way of being is okay, you're saying "I understand why you work that way/ why you would do that. Although I don't condone, it makes sense to me."
yeah yeah, I'm a sociopath to...
What? How is empathy learned? Does that mean empaths were raised differently? Kids from the same household can be complete opposites - to me it’s an instinct that isn’t learned - but what do I know - I don’t enjoy feeling someone’s pain to the point it can be overwhelming. But I can’t switch it off.
She’s obviously a liberal.
What causes sociopathy? Childhood trauma?
It can be environmental and also has genetic components..
Sometimes you can judge/assess a situation better without getting emotional.
Like if your car slips on the road. You need to stay in control. It won’t help to scream and cry and flail around.
Sociopaths are sharks. What do sharks do?
@@Armistead_MacSkyemind their business, usually
@@pbbbtttt8185 Is this an open forum for comments? 😂
Sociopath and psychopath aren’t the terms used anymore.
I am an empath, I do not stop empathizing with cluster B, I don't think that is an accurate statement..but I would say there is at least some diminishment of my empathy, or at least I know I'm not going to invest much in a relationship with them which wouod involve caring, because I know how futile it is to care about them ultimately in most cases.. even though it does help, as long as I don't allow them to manipulate me and keep strong boundaries, which I've gotten really good at..because cluster B tendencies are to use empaths' empathy to endlessly manipulate them for control. But fo say we don't empathizd or care about other human beings pretty much defies the definition of what being an empath is so..
Well, just read this comment section, if you think that the point they were trying to make is not true ;). There are people out there who say, if someone has no empathy themselves they are not human anymore. This is called dehumanisation. And we all know what "normal" people who are able to feel empathy are capable of, if they are made believe that some groups of people are a threat. They do not see the individual anymore.
People who label themselves as empaths rarely are
I find this really curious. Emma says she struggles to understand what it's like to be a sociopath and Patric struggles to illustrate (to a neurotypical woman) what it feels like. However she could simply say-as a woman-consider how you feel towards your male partner. You "love" him, but you don't feel guilt about hurting him or empathy if he suffers. And contrast that to the love you feel for your children. Where you feel guilt if you harm them in any way and empathy if they suffer. It seems to me that illustrates the point perfectly. It's a missed opportunity. She could have got a real (if limited) insight into what it feels like to be a sociopath. And probably identify with it in the process.
Neurotypical men feel guilt and empathy towards partners in the same way they feel it towards their children. Sociopathic men don't.
Wolf in sheep's clothing.
Empathy has more to do with privilege than neurotype. Neurotypical people are not the empathically superior beings they believe themselves to be.
Empathy has nothing to do with privilege…it is a typical emotional response in normal human beings and even in the animal kingdom
@@sunnydae6602 Incorrect. Catch up.
i despise that these people get air time.
It FUELS their narcissism
You two sound like people I would never want me around me
Go to therapy, you clearly need it
It’s important they do because the general public needs to be aware of the dangers.
Nah…She’s a narcissist
No. Most people would not commit a crime if they could get away with it.
I find this really curious. Emma says she struggles to understand what it's like to be a sociopath and Patric struggles to illustrate (to a neurotypical woman) what it feels like. However she could simply say-as a woman-consider how you feel towards your male partner. You "love" him, but you don't feel guilt about hurting him or empathy if he suffers. And contrast that to the love you feel for your children. Where you feel guilt if you harm them in any way and empathy if they suffer. It seems to me that illustrates the point perfectly. It's a missed opportunity. She could have got a real (if limited) insight into what it feels like to be a sociopath. And probably identify with it in the process.
Neurotypical men feel guilt and empathy towards partners in the same way they feel it towards their children. Sociopathic men don't.
@sammyb1651 but non-sociopathic women do feel guilt if we hurt our partners? How would that help?
@@Elspm No. I don't think thats true. I think women feel shame if they're SEEN to have hurt their partner (because it makes them look bad in the eyes of others), but I don't think they experience guilt for it. Guilt is very different.
Women want men to have no weaknesses (weakness in men triggers a disgust response in women), so if they hurt their partner they don't really recognise his suffering- they believe he should just "Man Up" and get over it. Because if he's hurt he cant protect her. You hear that constantly from women. They're very self referential in that regard.
So as I say, if neurotypical women want to know what it feels like to be a sociopath/psychopath, they need only consider their feelings towards their male partners. Bingo! There you go!☺
@@sammyb1651 well I'm a woman who strongly empathises with her male partner. So forgive me that I find your confidence ill-founded.
The null hypothesis would be that there is no difference in ability to empathise with their sexual partners based on gender. I have seen no evidence basis that this isn't the case.
@@Elspm Forgive me, you've personalised things. Women have a tendency to do this. As I say women are very self referential.
You have to de-personalise the point I'm making. It isn't about you so let us put that to one side. It's a population level observation.
At population level, women (generally) can be observed to exhibit a dearth of empathy/guilt when it comes to their male partners.
Contrast this strongly with the empathy they express towards their children/friends etc. Bingo!☺
@@Elspm Forgive me. You've personalised things. VVomen have a tendency to do this because they're very self referential.
It's not about you, so let us put that to one side. It's a population level observation.
At population level women (generally) can be observed to exhibit a dearth of empathy towards their male partners. Contrast this strongly with the empathy they express towards children/friends. Bingo!😊
i'm confused. is it a mental disorder or a neurotype? they're not the same thing.
It's a neurological disorder
Yeah the neurodivergent umbrella has become a bit much
@@EdenthelRei Agreed. That annoyed me too, as an autistic person who was in a relationship with a diagnosed sociopath/psychopath. I would say for them - purely mental. Her confusing the two was a red flag.
She reminds me of Amy Dunne from Gone Girl.
HATE that the interviewer said that a memoir taught her a lot about a psychological issue. Girl, you wanna learn, go read some actual studies and some books written by PSYCHOLOGISTS.
I agree, tho most learning is through real-life examples. You can learn things you can't get out of a DSM, and psychologists are limited to their own experiences. Humans are social animals. We use stories to connect with others. What better than the storyteller themselves to humanize us all. I had a psychotic break and after talking to the psychologist about my schozoaffective experience in a hospital group, he said thank you for giving me more empathy toward people with mental illness.
Great interview, thank you! Not all people with ASPD are monsters, some are very high functioning, moral, and committed to making the world a better place because they have an ethically positive personal code that they refuse to violate and they realize that the alternative is prison or an early grave.
Yes, from my understanding it's about lacking empathy, not lacking morals - thus an ability to have a moral compass.
@@RomyElizabethspot on. Truth is, there are a lot of people running around with ASPD, both diagnosed and undiagnosed, just like every other personality disorder. Most people with personality disorders are high functioning, get therapy/professional help, and function fine in the world. It’s the low functioning 1% that cause 50-70% of the problems.
@@dustinsegers4534 👋🏼 hi. Do you have ASPD? It sounds like these informations are personal for you
@@RomyElizabeth
Where do you think morals come from?
High functioning yes…. Moral? No.
Morality comes from a strong sense of empathy
Sociopaths fit into capitalism perfectly. It was designed by them, for them.
@justines1919 THIS. I recommend the book "A Generation Of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America" by Bruce Cannon Gibney, it talks about exactly this.
@@CrashBoomBang78 yeah like 40 percent of boomers have narcissistic tendencies
Uhh I think she wanted to stab the other child.
They're not actually empathetic.
With the little amount of study I have done on ASPD and the terms sociopathy and Psychopathy... this lady has no clue what she is talking about, and I don't believe a word she is saying.
Patric has done a lot of research into the different ways those terms have been defined over time - it's fascinating!
Many people are commenting with questions that are answered in the book. She knows that sociopathy is not in the current version of the DSM and that is a big reason for her diving into research on sociopathy and psychology in general. I loved the book, highly recommend
The problem isn't that sociopathy isn't in the DSM. Psychopathy isn't in the DSM but it's a recognized and well-studied condition. The problem is that she's just seems to be deciding what she wants "sociopathy" to mean.
@@aporia25 oh ok I get what you are saying, do you know why sociopathy isn’t a widely used term and/or a term that id studied? From what I remember in the book, the author was interested in sociopathy because she was exhibiting signs of psychopathy but on a smaller scale I believe. Idk, it’s definitely a very interesting topic!
What happened to the woman she was stalking?
SERIOUSLY
@@stuff1784 do you know Einstein?
@@Capecodham No
@@stuff1784 so why say, "seriously?"
@@Capecodham I’m emphasizing your point.
Sure it is a spectrum, however more should be talked about that many of these people have a line of victims of their emotional abuse and manipulation behind them who they have relied on for their daily dopamine. It's short sighted to talk about only causing physical pain, this type of crime for sure is a lesser percent among the whole spectrum but the emotional abuse is probably a major one, it's just that they choose their victims and do not treat everyone the same.
You're spot on! Honestly the mental abuse or even just the waiting for the next episode is so unbelievably draining.
Exactly.
More should be talked about? In general? That’s basically all the talking going on these days. TH-cam is full of ”how to spot a narcissist and sociopath and to avoid them” and straight up demonization. Nice to have some actual information and representation
i think the current trend to normalize cluster b personalities is gonna cause more harm than good. yes, they're people too, but abusive behavior is literally in the diagnostic criteria. i can have a little more sympathy for histrionics and borderlines because lack of empathy isn't in the criteria iirc, but i can't say the same for aspd and npd.
@@sleepylilac69 trend to normalize? Most posts and ”news” are along the lines ”how to spot a narcissist and avoid them”. Aspd and npd should be known as they are, personality disorders, not as synonyms for bad people. People are more than their disorders, and they actually can be aware of their disorders
I've met two sociopaths in my time. Both really enjoyed conversing with me as an open autistic person. Not manipulatively. The 2nd one was extremely lovely and very kind. I was aware he didn't feel things like I did and I enjoyed meeting and interacting with him anyway. As many are very likeable. Her eyes and his have the same look in them. No comment on the meaning of that. He was morally aligned and treated me better by far than my bpd partner had. We split for lifestyle differences. I don't think every sociopath is evil, but I also would never probably not have my wits about me in interactions. The 1st was extremely toxic and manipulative but he told me if he could feel love he thinks he could love me. It's as random as anything else to me.
She went into her profession "kicking and screaming"?
That sounds strange to me.
I'm wondering: Who forced her?
Why would you do that?
Hmmm. I'm not going to comment further. Just... stick to your gut on how you feel about this narrative.
I read her book, and she seems more likely on the psychopath spectrum, as she had a pretty normal childhood. She's a born psychopath, not a " created" sociopath. Either way, she's dangerous to anyone who might truly care about her, as she will lie, cheat, steal, gaslight to achieve her goals
Can not understand how so many of these people can deny her reality and refuse to understand how sociopathy is a disorder of the brain. When she’s being open about something so stigmatized in order to destigmatize it. Her experience of emotions being not neurotypical does not make her inherently dark sided and people with ADHD autism and OCD are also neurodivergent. So many comments are bragging about choosing not to empathize whereas the sociopathic person isn’t choosing- but can actively choose to not be apathetic!
It’s because we mainly see people with sociopathy committing extremely cold actions. Many people with this disorder slip through the cracks and never know that’s what they have, and others don’t either because they’re fantastic as masking. So it’s great that she created this. We fear sociopathy. Youre right, we do need to destigmatize it. But we need to also understand why people have this fear and come at it from a perspective that they can understand instead of villainizing. It’s a hard thing to try to rationalize trusting someone who doesn’t have the sort of emotions attached to a moral compass that others do, but yes, that is something we should try to learn about.
@@surayzsas7042 You're so naive.
Type 2 ASPD ... she would have to have acted in certain ways before the age of 18
Just because it's a disorder of the brain, doesn't mean it shouldn't be interpersonally stigmatized. Pedophilia is a disorder of the brain as well, and just because they don't act on it- Do you think they should be let around children? Sociopaths could be fine employees, but you should NOT let them into your personal life.
Let’s go ahead and NOT “normalize” sociopaths. OK? Thanks
14:00 tell me about it. I have Borderline Personality Disorder and anytime I get dis-regulated, neurotypical people shun. Especially in this ‘red flag’ world
what about awkward use of unusually sophisticated vocabulary ... curious where that might fit into diagnostic models
I just think there are so many types of people even if they are sociopaths. But to be diagnosed with ASPD they have to have committed really off the line acts like crimes repeatedly since childhood. I wonder what she means by being a sociopath but not diagnosed ASPD.
Patric Gagne is a highly intelligent woman who worked incredibly hard to understand herself, and to require herself to participate in society in the most positive way possible. I am reading her book which has taught me much about myself (not a sociopath, so-called 'normal'). She is honest and confessed about herself and what she has done -- more so than 99.9% of people. I have great respect for her.
As a therapist with midrange empathy, I can absolutely see how someone with low empathy could be a great therapist and more inoculated against burnout! I find my highly empathetic colleagues struggle with overwhelm at times
“I fall right in the middle” it sounds like you don’t care
Love this book! Thanks so much for this conversation ~
I wonder how she was raised.
She is warm and charming for a reason: its calculated. Everything with sociopaths is. Believe me, if she was to drop the mask and tell you what she really thinks your jaw would be on the floor. She openly admits that she had her husband proofread her book and he would come to her in shock at something he read saying "you cant put this in there!". And she didnt.
actually, it's the other way around. She wanted to put certain stuff in the book, but her husband told her not to do it. He was the one who insisted on proofreading and who wanted certain stuff removed.
1) Why would you lie about what she said?
2) If she lied saying what I mentioned above, why would she do it? She's definitly capable of discerning herself what she can put in the book and what she can't, so why ask her husband?
It kinda seems like you're trying to demonize her
@user-vz4gg6cs4l Him reading it was for proof reading purposes. If she didn't care she would've left those parts in, but she didn't. She removed them. So again: proofreading.
She's not charming at all.
@@Armistead_MacSkye That's subjective. She is to me. 🤷🏻♀️
@@CrashBoomBang78 Why did you feel the need to say it again? Weird...
Listened to it on Audible
Sociopath is not a DSM diagnosis. You can't be diagnosed with it. Does she know that? Does the interviewer know that?
She does know that, you'll have to read the book to hear more about the extensive research Patric has done into her own diagnosis and the way the different terms have been defined over time.
Wouldn't the urge to hurt animals be more due to the sociopath's lack of remorse? Often violence is quite normalized to a sociopathic child.
Interesting interview nonetheless.
Wanting to feel something is the root desire. Remorse would for a normal person would be the metaphorical safety rail that stops a normal person to hurt the animal.
@@reapsmccreep8847what about empathy?
@@guitarlessonsnow3431 well the short answer is again the desire to feel something gets the ball rolling to do something bad empathy is indeed different than remorse that it doesn’t happen after the act but it’s the same situation that the emotion is a guard rail to stop bad act.
So what's the feeling the person is seeking for?
@@AliceVFame Well in Patrick’s book she describes it along the lines of being only able to go on so long while not being stimulated. Like eventually you’re gonna break from the prolonged feeling of apathy. So she chose to do “minor” bad things” like technically stealing peoples car n going to stranger’s funerals are examples on top of my head. Anyway to finally answer your question LITERALLY ANYTHING. I totally recommend you read or listen the book. Though in my personal opinion it kinda falls off a lil towards the end.
Making a person famous for all the wrong reasons...
Very impressed by the author and interviewer as well. Will read the book.
“Me too” 😂 💚📚🪱💚
its crazy how some of these comments miss the mark completely. judging a strangers empathy while clearly lacking ur own. empathy is something that CAN be learned and nurtured if one is willing enough. this is why its imperative that we extend our empathy to everyone, even if they dont reciprocate. a lot ppl mix up being empathetic w being 'soft' and easily manipulated which just isnt the case. to me its about learning how to feel for others and being able to put urself in their shoes. that doesnt mean that you necessarily agree with or feel bad for that person. i see it more as a means to better urself mentally and emotionally in order to be able to function in society (speaking as a neurodivergent person who still struggles w empathy at times)
@wujuandrea That is only partially true. A sociopath can POTENTIALLY learn cognitive empathy and perhaps choose to apply it if it benefits them in some way, but they will never experience emotional empathy because their brains are literally unable, that's HOW the disorder works.
@@CrashBoomBang78
Yessss
Such an interesting video and book. We do have many copies in our store (Waterstones in Covent Garden) and I’m so keen to read it. 😊
Wait… she goes back and forth between using the term “neuro typical” and then “personality type.”
The way she carries herself and her mannerisms are almost identical to those of my abusive mother.. Yikes!
Oh wow, so honesty and forthrightness are traits on Hare’s checklist? Crazy! 😂 I just interviewed a tobacco exactly the other day and he said he doesn’t know WHAT everyone is getting upset about, it’s totally safe. 😅 Wild. Just wild.
the interviewer seems to have done little research.
For me, it makes the conversation much less enjoyable 😢
Can't wait to read this! Great interview
I am curious to know why her diagnosis does not instead align with an autism diagnosis?
She may or may not address it in the book but autism and sociopathy are very different even if they have some similar traits. As she says, sociopathy is a personality disorder. Sociopathic people can be very good at social situations, whereas autistic people often struggle with decoding what neurotypicals are doing, socially speaking. That's just one of at least several differences I can think of off the top of my head, so I imagine looking at the DSM-V might be the best way to answer your own question.
They're completely different conditions. Autistics do not usually experience a restricted range of emotions or lack of empathy. Those are inaccurate stereotypes. We do however communicate differently to neuro typical people.
Some of the most empathetic people I know are autistic. @@kathyryder828
I'm autistic and I believe some autistic people can be classified as having limited emotion/empathy, but most autistic people seem to have hyper empathy. For instance, I can't watch gory movies because it physically hurts me to see people suffer. In autism studies they sometimes use the terms "affective empathy" and "cognitive empathy" to differentiate the difference between mentally understanding what someone is thinking or feeling (cognitive) and caring about/feeling how someone feels (affective)
I know they are completely different diagnoses, I just feel that from only watching this video of hers, that it reminded me of autism type of neurodivergence.
Can't wait to read this!
Interesting 🧐
My ex was one…. All this is a front for her to gain money and fame so she had more power to lie and manipulate. End of! RUN
Heck yeah. More of this please. Very honest, enlightening and refreshing.
Patric is making lots of money off her "illness." Also, she's not as smart as she thinks she is.
What is your point? Why shouldn't she be allowed to make money from her book that deals with her life and her condition? Should only neurotypical people be allowed to write about sociopathy and make money from it?
We all work with whatever we have to make a living 🤷 Stop being hateful and jealous
@@c.m.8972 Hi Patric! 😂
@@Armistead_MacSkyewhat's your beef
I’d argue the fact that she managed to make lots of money off her illness means she is VERY smart
@wearesatellites91 Any one can write a book 😂
Why are they proud of it? lol
RIGHT
Hello there hey there
Shes so intelligent. Love her insights
Someone is circulating a smear campaign against me to certain platforms suggesting I’m a sociopath. And that I’m guilty of crimes- I’m looking to prosecute this person. I’m certainly not diagnosed aspd - do not have this personality. And I’m the victim of a hacktivist and stalker who has been harassing me at my home for 7 years.
Sounds like something a schizophrenic would say tbh
What are you talking about-
I would suggest talking to the police but I don't know if that will go well. Even if they're bad at their job, though, maybe it's good to at least have the report?
Meghan Markle seems so much like her
I think Megan has NPD as she is JUST like someone I grew up with who had NPD. Like so many of her behaviours and facial expressions are EXACTLY the same. But yes, it’s essentially the same spectrum of personality disorders, so very similar.
Oh for God's sake.
@@yfoogwhat are your credentials? Have you done tests on her, have you analyzed her? Are you an expert in NPD? Because even they have difficulties diagnosing NPD