One thing about this though - so much of my behavior as a woman is not about "evolution" necessarily but the materialist considerations that shape our behavior. If we had national childcare and child support, most women would lean on men less, and the need for a man to have money would be way lower. This isn't my biology - it's the reality of raising children in this world. And this need to "lean" on men hurts women and men because it reduces our relationship to a financial one - just a thought... otherwise, love your content!
If it's for survival can we consider it evolution?? Maybe devolution lol cause another commentator did remind me that they did say worse economics sees a rise in inceldom. Plus I watched Black Love by intelexual and she said it was survival making so much of earlier partnership necessary. And it makes sense, I'm aro ace disabled whose real open to partnership here cause survival. Even with all my friends and family it's still hard out here y'all lol when the stakes are higher the downfall hits harder I guess
😂 I know nothing about Warhammer except for some people on TH-cam who happen to do comic dubs that often feature the Warhammer franchise or characters. And they are all women. So idk maybe give it a shot 😅
@@8lec_R I hear you, but then we run into another thing they talked about - being in a city where there are too many men. Any girl in a game store is gonna get snatched up faster than you can say "wow nice paint job!"
Do you paint your own miniatures? Maybe you can find a crossover between your Warhammer collection and a hobby that has more gender diversity, like painting of some sort. Maybe your community has a makerspace (that shit is rare bc those places are so expensive)? Also, maybe the library or a local fine arts center (also rare bc that shit's expensive) might have free community classes or events?
Based on the discussion about "hypergamy ". I think its good to point out that there can be trends socially. However i think it would be good to point out strategies to avoid needing to engage with elevating status or money, to get with women , Or to attract those women who are alot more loose with those standards that rely on monatary gain or status. (As im aware there are many different types of women out there) I think the red pillers and manospheres in general make their viewers believe that women only go for someone with elevated finance and status creating this warped image of women as though it is a purely biological and unconscious descision. I even had a irl debate with an older gentlemen discussing whether any women at all date men in lower economic status at all. To which i said theres likely an improvement in women who will date men who earn less vs wont. I feel like this dymanic can and does cause resentment for both parties in some relationships if the man initially never wanted to rely on that for relationship success, again rsspecially if the man didnt want that to begin with , but had to engage with those standards anyways. Ultimately resulting in bad relationships outcomes (if infact both parties begin to resent each other as a result of the dymanic) In summary, i think there should be specific advice for men who may want to attract women who dont have hefty requirements with regards to finance and money and status. And what variables or advice can be useful to gear men towards those types of women. I personally stopped watching general dating advice from more pick up qrtist types because the advice , quite frankly left me and i think alot of men despairing and disappointed, because it sort of confirms or hinges on those negitive biases. I think in 2024 there is a higher likelyhood that it is easier to find that dynamic than lets say , in the 90s.
The reason "be yourself" is the first, most intuitive advice you get about dating is not, contrary to the obvious read, because it will definitely _work._ It's because if it _doesn't work,_ deciding to _not_ be yourself _definitely will not help._ The truth is, there may or may not be someone out there who will accept you regardless of who you are, but lying to people is _not a secret cheat code to skip actually finding such a person._ If you enter relationships by misrepresenting yourself, you will only ever be in miserable failing relationships pretty much by default.
That's why the best advice isn't "be yourself" it's " be someone better". An example would be that if a guy is submissive he should probably try and be less submissive because the vast majority of women don't like that type of man. He should change, truly change, to truly stop being a less desirable version of himself.
@@JuliAuditoreWell first off, I call bullshit on your specific example. The fact of the matter is that there are dominant women who _do,_ in fact, want a submissive man and will absolutely be _more excited_ to accept you as you are even if you are the most spineless weakling. Obviously don't accept an abusive partner or anything, but forcing youself out of your comfort zone because society says your gender is not supposed to be like you is the _definition_ of toxic masculinity, and will more likely hurt you than actually work besides. If you don't have the natural tendency towards it, odds are you probably can't compete with people who _do_ for the people who _want_ that anyway. You'll never be as good at being someone else as you are at being you, through weight of practice if nothing else, so if you can't win doing _that_ you are _less likely to succeed_ trying and failing to be someone else. But more generally, the whole point of my argument is that behavior modification is _fucking hard,_ even where it's not actually impossible. Do it if and where you can to change things you want to change _for you,_ sure, but be realistic with yourself. You shouldn't trivialize the fact that most parts of your personality are not solved by saying "just be an entirely different person, bro" any more than having an overt physical deformity can be overcome with the power of positive thinking. That's the kind of advice that leads to conversion therapy, which very noteably _doesn't work._ There are as wide a range of women out there as there are men, and they exist as outliers in pretty much the same proportion of oddities at that. If you are a submissive man, or have some other "traditionally undesirable" trait that makes it harder to find a "traditional woman," the answer is not _attempt to change your entire affect to conform to normative standards,_ It's find a nontraditional partner who thinks that's a positive. I guarantee it's more likely to not make you miserable, even if it is probably more effort in the short term.
I think Bezos and Elon and Queen Elizabeth when she was alive were perfect villains, but to me a villain is evil and evil requires agency. Agency requires money and power. Proletariat people don't have money and power to be a evil doers. I think murderers are better than Bezos and musk. Imagine being worth a hundred billion dollars and choosing to force people to starve and commit crimes to survive and not care or like the societal damage you cause? That's evil, shooting someone for their wallet is stupid PTSD behavior. When all your wants and needs are met, and you choose to do great harm because that's how you define success, you are evil, like Satan evil. But we don't get to talk to those people and they have civilized decorum.
I lead with empathy every time, and these guys will still attack me. I lead with understanding every time and these guys still call me a f*ggot for having long hair, say they hate me and can’t understand what the fuck I am because I use they/them and have it in my Instagram bio. I lead with empathy and understanding and every time it’s “hope you add to the 40%”. I won’t stop leading with empathy and understanding, but Jesus Christ is it difficult. If you aren’t a cis straight dude who looks traditionally masculine, most of these guys will immediately write you off and insult you. If you’re in any way queer you’ll be insulted immediately. God forbid if you’re a woman trying to talk to these guys with empathy, then it’s even worse than the hate I get in return.
Something you guys touched, but didn't really address is on how to build up that resilience when it comes to bad relationships, bad sexual experiences, and bad break ups, the kind of things that lead someone to build resentment and bitterness, because you can work on your body, on your charisma, or your communication skills, on your status, on your mental health, and that will certainly help you get a GF or a hook up, but none of that prepares you to deal with a bad partner And it only takes 2 or 3 bad encounters, for some people even just 1, and you will start thinking that all the effort you put in, wasn't worth it, and that you were better off with your left hand instead of spending time, money, and emotional energy trying to meet someone else
@@Dotubetoodalooprivelged af view. Should men who can't afford therapists just die alone? What kind of ridiculous caste-eugenics are you advocating for?
It's hard to understand how someone would go about "learning" that... If you are attracting a bad type of women, then you have three options. Keep doing it, work on yourself, or just tap out. There is a type of dude out there who blames others for the situations he puts himself in, and that tends to carry over to dating. If I get cheated on twice I don't say "all women cheat I'm better off alone" I say "what were the aspects of her personality that caused her to cheat, what are the aspects of my personality that caused me to turn a blind eye, how could I have better anticipated that she might be unfaithful, etc" and by the time you've given it a good few days thought you should be able to approach your next relationship with the tools to build up something healthier.
The "just go to therapy" advice is the most priviledge advice that you can hear, if you have mental illness and you have no money you will not find help. The odd of finding a competent therapist with the right kind of orientation for your issues, while beeing affordable, is akin to a miracle. Give actionnable advice for Self therapy (for example mindfulness exercice to manage depression) instead of the "just go to therapy" advice who will only encourage negative bias against the practice since they would not have the help they need.
Oh, I love this comment. Man people throw therapy at other people like as if it’s so easy to find a therapist. Not only are their financial challenges, but finding a therapist who actually works with you can take a while. Oh my god yes. This sounds really simple and basic, but deep breath it’s just really so good. For me it’s like a secret pleasure. It’s a reminder that I keep my own counsel.
It’s used to completely brush you off. You try and open-up to someone about your life and they completely lock you out with “go to therapy!”. Like it’s a wall they throw in your face when you dared to be human. Group-processing other people’s emotions isn’t a burden, it’s fundamental to any relationship that’s closer than acquaintances.
I don't think you're wrong, in fact you're totally right. However, he has made it Abundantly clear that he won't give advice on subjects he's not learned on... not everyone who can tell you what these sociological studies say knows fuckall about best therapeutic practice. This guy is all about sociological study, so his advice will be constrained by that. If we're frustrated by that the solution is not "make everybody who talks about xyz issue become an amateur therapist in their TH-cam videos" the answer is to start targeting the systematic barriers that make therapy so unaffordable
A couple of guys I know have joined men's support groups (peer support), or go to group therapy with a mental health professional present. Some of these are informal and free, others are low-cost. There's also Men's Shed, a club for guys to get together, make stuff, and hang out. If men are dealing with addiction, there are 12-Step groups that run men's-only meetings. There are tons of men traditional therapy models don't work for, and there are other types of things to try, depending on what's needed.
It’s also worth noting that the personalities of men are often modified by their economic viability. To be frank, broke men are often mean bc they’re upset with their life circumstances. No one wants to date the mean guy. Also, Much like some people are afraid that if they become a minority they’ll be treated badly, lower earning men are afraid to be partnered with women who earn more bc they’re concerned with how power dynamics will shift because of it and assume women will “take advantage” of them in some significant way.
A lot of women (but not all) also just prefer to have a partner who makes more than they do, usually out of economic necessity (cause rents are SKYROCKETING). It's hard to blame someone who's barely 21, has no career fresh out of college with tens of thousands of dollars in debt for taking free meals and preferring partners who can financially help or at least don't need support themselves. I think most women who care about income are basically forced to care, cause economics.
On the messaging side of things, I would go with ‘economic condition/status/situation rather than ‘viability’. No one working working a forty hour or more work week wants to read the comments and infer that they are simply ‘unviable’ despite doing everything they were told to do and trying their hardest.
This sounds like you've personally mostly dated broke men and don't really know how wealthy men behave. Study after study after study has shown that wealthier people are more callous and less empathetic than poor people. If you keep attracting mean, broke people then maybe there is something about you that keeps picking these folks as partners. At a societal level the reality is wealth = mean.
That last question about how to avoid upsetting people with certain facts, is actually something I’ve been trying to deal with for a long time. I know it’s kind of silly to say it on the Internet, but I think tone helps a lot. Right there, the fact that I prefaced this with “I think” probably took some edge off of what I was saying. If you make statements coming off like a curious researcher rather than an all-knowing guru, it tends to deflect lots of vitriol. People might still criticize you or correct you, but criticism can still be useful.
This is something deeply upsetting to me. Having to water down things to make them easier to swallow. Especially when people are aggressively wrong and you have to play extremely soft, knowing they would've been nowhere near as gentle with you.
@@tylersamuels4438 All I can says is, when it works, and you actually get the stubborn mule to sit down and think for a second, it's deeply satisfying, kind of like taming a wild beast. Doubly so when you actually get to enjoy their company and maybe even learn something from them, because of it. In some cases, they can be surprisingly friendly once they're no longer caught up in winning the argument. Often what I need to do though is step away for a second and not say the first words that come to mind. My first words tend to be aimed towards hurting them or bruising their ego, so I need to get that out of my system before I can work towards a conversation that manages to go somewhere. Still, I hear you. In-person, sometimes focusing on being diplomatic gets in the way of me keeping track of my own facts and arguments. It can be super frustrating when I can't think straight because I'm too busy thinking about how to manage the vibe of the conversation.
True. Which is incredibly frustrating. Anything short of complete babying and rhese incel dudes will pop off insulting me in every way imaginable. I always try to lead with understanding and kindness, and the majority of the time I attempt to engage I get called slurs because I have long hair and piercings and use they/them. Same thing every time. Repeat ad nauseum
@@podtherod9304 That's fair. I may be speaking from privilege here. As a straight, white, ace virgin (A Cel I suppose?) I don't really have anything for them to go after, so for me they're just people who are very very wrong and often annoyingly immature. I mean, there is some emotional investment involved. As someone who used to be insecure about my own dateability, they can awaken old self-criticisms, kind of like I'm talking to a younger me whom I really wish would grow up. But that's squarely a "me" problem. Feeling frustrated because you're speaking to someone who actively wishes harm or oppression upon you seems very valid. If it's any comfort, if other people are listening, they may soak in the truth of the argument, and even the bigots you speak to might soak it in eventually, once it's had some time to burrow into their skulls. But don't push yourself. Arguments online, or with strangers are rarely as earth-shaking as they often feel, and keeping an eye on the emotional toll it takes on you is important as well.
The problem with not getting any is that the people who do get some don't know what it's like, and the people that don't won't have any advice worth listening to.
@@yasielromero8236 except you don't learn anything from success. i don't know what my ex saw in me, all i know is that nobody else has seen that and said so.
@@silentj624generally, men feel entitled to sex. It’s part of the setup of the patriarchy, boys are raised to believe they are entitled to women’s attention, and if they do the correct inputs they are rewarded with sex. Boys are not taught how to pursue relationships in a healthy way, how to think about relationships in a healthy way, or how to have sex or want sex in a healthy way.
I think there is something to explore when it comes to rejection from women, men's relationship with vulnerability (and its response emotion anger), and rejection sensitivity. Related to this, near the end of my career in psychology, I was working with young boys with gaming rage and (anecdotally mind you) a lot of them reported it was due to feeling vulnerable from dying in competitive PvP game due to performance or feeling a lack of control. There may be a connection to delve into in which men face two of the areas they are supposed to and romanticize performing well in (combat and having sexual relationships), experiencing vulnerability from difficulty performing in those fields, and not having been socially taught how to cope with these it outside of angry outbursts.
THIS! 90% of my friends are dudes and this comes across so clearly when they open up, talk and admit to things (not about gaming necessarily) but outside of that you wouldn't know at I'm curious. Would you perhaps say that this romanticization of performance can be tied to power fantasies? Such as establishing a relation to certain franchises/characters as a sort of crutch to embody this fantasy/expectations of performance and power? I'm really just seeing if the rage from certain people when their beloved franchise gets "woke" or "infiltrated" by "posers" is sort of a defense mechanism tied to not being able to cope with ones own reality of expectations of performing.
@@TheAnimaAnimal for particular series I cannot say, however power fantasies can be (though not necessarily) a tool used by the brain to avoid feeling emotional pain or reestablish a sense of control or safety
great convo. kinda reminds me of somethin my brother-in-law said the other day... "straight-up askin how much money your potential mate makes is common & expected within the first few mins." ...he's closing on 30, lives in a major city, financially supports his mom, her husband, and his younger sister while she finishes college (but "lives with mom" is the appearance), and he's got a noticeable skin condition that worsens with high stress. he's smart & educated, super funny, and in good physical shape... even as a great "catch", he hasn't been able to afford to date, and when he tries, it's a discouraging shit-show of societal failures workin against him. as a mid-40's dude who's been off the market for nearly 16yrs, asking about income like that shocked me. that shit was a huge red flag just 20yrs ago! it's too difficult to "make-it" these days, even when his idea of making-it is a simple 1br apt. young people in Japan stopped fuckin cause there's no affording privacy, and in the US we got rampant gross misogyny profiteering & shooters. too many social issues seem linked to wealth disparities.
It's a really under addressed factor. Is your brother really a "catch?" Typically the market determines your value, eg: if you don't attract good girls, what is your evidence you deserve them? Frankly, I don't dress fancy or try to convey status to women, and I've had pretty great luck with cool girls that aren't just chasing me for money, so when I hear stories like your brother, I wonder what they're doing so differently.
@LUM-kb2rl ...oh, he attracts decent women - Just no affordability for most individuals or even couples in his city. Most households are even multigenerational. This may be different from your city, & explain why financial pressures haven't resulted in a shift in dating culture/etiquette that you've noticed? Basically, a question of "where", not "who".
I felt my past self wincing when the interviewee said to hit the gym. For all those out❤ there like me who are disabled, with something other than autism, and who find hitting the gym hard because gym staff don’t know how to deal with a blind person or a wheelchair user for instance, I feel for you. I eventually found a way that worked which involve paying a personal trainer. Lots of money. Blessed to have had lots of alone time with the computer as a young person and really be interested in it and learning how to audit other peoples code for them so I can get paid. But yeah I hate it when people just say hit the gym. I really really hate it. I get it though. It helped me out. Also, autism isn’t the only disability out there even though it’s the most trendy. Also, I know you can’t mention every disability under the planet. I’m just here to speak up for people like me because this is how I felt. Keep up the great work. Fuck the gym if their heads are up their asses. Do push-ups if you can. My body is pretty physically able so that’s the advice that worked for me.
Thanks so much. Yeah, I said it for the people out there who feel like me. I don’t expect everybody to be perfect when giving advice or give it in the way that I would best receive it. Still I really appreciate that. You read my note and responded to it.
Don’t agree with this comment. Why be so literal? And nitpicky? Do body weight exercises, improvise, find modified exercises and do them on your floor. Work it out. Countless people exercise without a gym.
Signifier likes this guy's vibe so much lol it's great. When he says the thing about usually struggling to get 5 minutes in an interview but he's gonna have to release this whole thing, perfect.
As someone directly inline with the looks and status of Murphy, this conversation was refreshing as it told me men like this do exist, it’s hard to believe that sometimes
I was watching Kurtis Conner's video about Looksmaxxing, and as an autistic woman, BOY did it make me understand why autistic men would be attracted to this kind of content. Autistic people get insulted in really weird specific ways: your voice is weird, you walk weird, you act weird.... And then here's this video of this guy who's telling you exactly the angle your shoulders should have when you're walking and the exact pacing you're "supposed" to have to be attractive. Specific instructions like this feel like a GOLDMINE for autistic people. In a weird way, it's similar to BDSM: Autistic people are over represented in the BDSM community because BDSM culture comes with very specific instructions about consent, negotiation, rituals, etc. In recent years there's been a lot of debates about whether autism is a mental disability or simple a human variation - exactly how homosexuality used to be a mental illness but is now understood as a regular thing that humans do - and I hope this shift will positively affect the loneliness experienced by so many of them/us.
As a 26 year old autistic adhd male virgin who's never been in a love or a relationship I was struggling with teetering on inceldom for a couple of years when I was around 17 to 19 and what saved me was finding real friends and feminist theory. As my literature professors gave me a proper explanation of intersectionality and its importance for men's mental health for what like the first time in my life I finally realised that the internalised "ickiness" I always associated with it was misguided and unfounded. Afterwards I started reading feminist literature, Butler and Hooks to be precise and I started consuming a lot more overtly feminist content and while it made me aware of many of my blind spots and made me appreciate women in a new light it also made me even more terrified of the prospect of romantically or sexually engaging with women. Social interactions, as much as I've been groomed to master them from a young age, are hard enough as it is. The thought of having some sort of hormonal chemical reaction stunting my analytical thought and judgement for even just a brief moment and making me let my mask of "normalcy" slip adds so much anxiety to equation that I've inadvertently removed myself from it. The other thing that might give me even more anxiety is the fear of accidentally hurting someone without even realising it because even though I've trained myself to actively be aware of social cues in lots of instances I still miss many. That combined with low self esteem and a few other things have lead me becoming what I can only describe as *anxiety induced aromantic/asexual*. Which doesn't mean that I don't still crave companionship or intimacy which truly sucks because it makes me feel like I have somehow gone full circle and arrived at a sort of "woke black pill" due to me not really seeing myself getting over myself and these struggles anytime soon because of very little success in therapy thus far and basically non-existent specifically autism targeted therapy in my country.
Well shit, I thought that this, at least, was a unique experience for me. I feel so guilty about my own male gaze that it's just easier to not even think about ever bothering a woman with the prospect of interacting with me.
funny, intersectionality is what pushed me more towards inceldom, not because it was wrong, or cringe or whatever, but because it became a buzzword, not actual praxis. bell hooks wrote her books on men within feminism out of *anger* at fellow feminists, and I can clearly see that things have not improved since those books. And as someone who desperately needs/wants the spaces bell hooks wants... god it makes me downright irrate. So I have a really complex relationship with feminism. I want to support it but also can't because I know I am not welcome there. I vehemently hate the manosphere and the like, never have identified with them, but like... I have to agree with the truthful things they say and call out the untruthful things feminists say and vice versa. I just focus more effort on feminism because they atleast pretend to care.
I will say that while yes you can overstep your boundaries at time. U still have a lot of people looking for love. So many women that want your attention. Being respectful and asking if they want a relationship isn't a violation of another individual.
@@jeffreychandler8418so you’re frustrated at what exactly? that feminists are not effectively making some sort of progress or they/the movement are not living up to your expectations? that feminists you’ve met don’t live up to ideals? What does intersectionality specifically have to with your frustration?
@@franjkav I'm specifically angry that feminists claim to care about the issues, then actively make the issues worse. Intersectionality is related because of that first part, feminists use it to claim that they care, when they don't.
For the autism thing, im hesitant to reccommend some therapy because of the pitfalls... but... i also wonder how many of these men are looking for autistic partners. Like, youll probably do better with people who Get It, and who you can share those experiences. I wonder how many of these men are expecting women to accept things they would actively reject in a partner
I think it’s bc of many different factors why men struggle regardless of being autistic; they usually secure better jobs that they hyperfixate on of course (not all of course) but socially they struggle bc in general (im autistic as well) the way people socialize prevents people from fully being honest what they want and it’s guessing games that the dating game likes to play sets us autistic folks to failure
Good to hear this kind discussion going on. Not real relevant to my life but this kids need some positive but hard truths. Sometimes you need to get out of your head and look objectively at how you present to other human’s . Life is trial and error and finding a lane that is true to yourself but not a toxic nightmare.
I feel like a huge component I haven't seen discussed is the actual mechanics of dating in a healthy manner in relation to this topic. Helping people improve all of their relationships so they feel less alone is probably the best thing we can do to help with this core issue of loneliness. How do you create meaningful relationships? Well, you have to talk about vulnerability, boundaries, conflict resolution, listening to others, etc. Things our culture doesn't teach us like emotional intelligence and how to respect one another. I feel like the work that relationship experts only get to say to people Already in couples needs to be heard by those struggling with dating. Especially when it comes to expectations and how expectations create resentment. So many of these Incel/manosphere types are starting with horrible expectations that are never going to be met by any good healthy relationship so they are going to fail in one way or another. Either by never getting into a relationship or creating an extremely toxic one.
my brother: "Helping people improve all of their relationships so they feel less alone is probably the best thing we can do to help with this core issue of loneliness. How do you create meaningful relationships?" that is ON THE NOSE. its a question, not a 'tip' but it absoluty is a big part of the problem.
Personal hygiene and taking care of yourself is massive. Maintaining a a clean living space is also huge. When I was single and struggling to date, lots of folks said to go to hobby groups I enjoy- like board games etc. I could not find a decent group where everyone at that table had showered in the last 24h- and people weren't condescending and playing sweaty. I can not imagine a woman going to these groups and the increased sexism with mansplaining of rules or constanlty being hit on our of no where. I also think this bounces into a common statment from these manosphere groups about nerdy women- why dont they date nerdy men? In my experience, its because lots of nerdy men don't clean and don't clean themselves 😂 it has nothing to do with you being a nerd haha
Now we are talking! Yes. People would except dirty totally messy places from me, because I was totally blind, but they would be condescending to me at the same time. I actually feel better about myself and my place is clean. Because then I have some thing for somebody else. That’s a big one too. Reframing life from oh I’m going to get mine and I’m going to make my mark and this and that to oh I’m going to be able to provide some thing for somebody in need. I’m gonna have food in my fridge so that I can cook a meal For people if I want to invite them over or if somebody needs one.
@@djfeelings lots of the speakers in these circles, like Jordan Peterson, really treat women like trophies or awards for doing the bare basics of participating on society. It makes dating entirely transactional- I clean my room and shower, you have sex with me. Dating is very selfish in that way and dehumanizing to women.
@@peckc16It also gives an unrealistic expectation that is bound to come up against an unpleasant reality that self-improvement (when done properly) is slow and gradual, and won't guarantee immediate or frequent dating success. These people can become discouraged by early failures and give up their journey of bettering themselves.
I'm not a nerdy but from what I hear nerdy women say nerdy men don't want them. The amount of women who go to cosplay conventions and then are treated poorly by the men there is wild.
@@silentj624yeah, for sure. My sister is the one who got me into all my nerdy interests and she’s told me about the harassment she’s received in like dnd groups, at conventions, and so on. Nerdy straight women do want to date and be in relationships with guys who share their interests, but most of those nerdy guys are incredibly misogynistic and incredibly cruel.
you don't have to "look past the misogyny" there are plenty of us in need of rescuing who are broke, depressed and have no social group because of childhood social trauma and the alienation of capitalist society but aren't or were never rabidly misogynist
True. But it's important to always lead with empathy, failing that just not engaging or feeding the fire. We are all capable of falling down these paths, and it's important to remember it doesn't have to be permanent or that the individual will always be like this but painting everyone with that same brush will limit your ability to give a shit.
Macken, I have been watching your videos for a while now. As a clinician, I love the researched based content that you are so kindly disseminating with the public. People need so much education and you are making content that is doing that in a palatable way. I watched a TH-cam video with You and RedPill last night. I loved every minute of it. I loved how you didn’t back down and continued to assert yourself and kept the convo focused on the data and science. I saw RedPill interview Orion Taradon, PsyD who is spewing the same harmful theories of RedPill. Every time I watch Orion, my blood pressure spikes as I feel his content is misogynistic and also harmful to our already toxic culture. I just wanted to thank you for what you are doing. Much appreciation. 🙏🏼
Thank you so much for sharing the long form. (And I can tell this isn't even all of it, so I guess thanks for the editing labor, too.) Super interesting conversation, y'all.
Thank you both for the information and discussion. I have no critiques on most of your videos because I am unwilling to go to work and study simultaneously 😂. Thank you for the educational exposure. I enjoy your content because it removes the scales of ignorance piecemeal.
1:02:13 It's so funny how we came full circle on muscular men over the course of like 10 years. Also, the upsetting thing isn't that attractiveness is highly prioritized. That's obvious. It's being lied to and told that it isn't. A lot of the anger of incels isn't from having the issues. It's from them being disregarded, invalidated, and mocked. It’s actually heartening to know you have that much control.
I'm actually pretty confused about his point about muscularity being an "enormous difference in bodily attractiveness", speaking as a woman attracted to men, and knowing the things women say about men's attractiveness when men aren't in the room. Push come to shove, facial attractiveness and hair is the bigger factor, along with being trim, and trimness doesn't necessitate muscularity. If you're thin or have a bit of weight on you, you aren't going to enter a new realm of attractiveness by hitting the gym. Maybe Macken was thinking of overweight men when he made that point, but I'd argue then that it's the loss of weight that matters. Anyway, what he says about hairstyle and hygiene is spot on though.
@@reckonerwheel5336 Ty for your response :). I think "bodily attractiveness" is the key term. I'd assume that most times you're seeing guys it's clothed lol. I think fitness does affect the face though so it still does play a factor. You can't control fat distribution, but if you have less overall you'll likely have a chiseled, more appealing face. Hair is definitely huge too. I definitely balance thinking of whether a beard would fit me vs the benefit it gives in terms of facial contouring for men. It is interesting to talk about the settings in which info is disclosed though. In ingroup conversations, male and female, there's an assumption of sincerity, but there can also be expectations at play that affect what you would admit to. In studies, you'd hope that anonymity and rigor would lead to more honest results. Sometimes we don't know ourselves. I don't know how much weight to put into this, but at least a lot of the women I've ran into were fans of muscularity. You can also see it in what people's OCs and fanarts tend to look like. When you have the freedom of fantasy, what do you choose to create?
@@tylersamuels4438 Oh yes, for some folks, their face changes when their weight/muscle levels change, and that can impact attractiveness overall, I agree. I think most women find muscularity attractive, it just doesn't rank as high as what may be assumed societally, nor does a muscular body of say, Man #1 win out over Man #2 who's thin with a good-looking face. I think if you were to ask how to make Man #2 even more ideal, then muscle tone would probably be added. I think that'd be why you see muscularity in OC and fanart -- when given the option, that quality would be there. It's fascinating to look at those works -- they show common desires as well as more unique desires, like tattoos, hairstyles, clothing, etc. For myself -- I don't have any specific facial features I like, but for body -- a small waist, large knuckled hands, and some definition in the chest is the fantasy. Height -- between 4'10" and 5'11 (as a short gal, I find too much height is awkward!). The public figure I know of who hits most of these physical qualities is Suga from BTS, and his face is attractive to me as well.
There's always two things that come to mind when I see men discussing how undesirable they are to women: 1) Which women? It feels, so often, that they're talking about a very specific kind of woman, and it would be beneficial to mention at some point "Have you considered that your idea of a woman you want to date is too narrow?" Like, I know PLENTY of women who love a short king. But they're often not conventionally attractive or they're bisexual (see point 2). Like yeah, if you're solely pitching yourself in a specific market in which what you're offering isn't in demand, you'll have more issues. 2) I know so many bisexual women (myself include) who prefer a short guy, and also chubby guys. But what often happens is that these guys get so in their heads about how "undesirable" they are so they not only have a big chip on their shoulder with relation to women in general, but then if they DO date bisexual women, the biphobia hits HARD because of the fear and jealousy that goes with that. So you end up with a lot of short-king/chubby-guy-loving bisexual women who end up dating only women (or just opting to be single) because the short/chubby guy market is so actively hostile. Like, as a bi woman who's been single for over a decade, it's so frustrating to see these kinds of guys that I think are so attractive just railing about how women won't date them because of how they look.
“Incels aren’t actually as white supremacist as the public assumes” “Actually everything is more white supremacist than the public assumes” Typical sig L take
Just to add on to the point made about overlap in the autistic community--unfortunately, there are no viable therapies specifically for autism spectrum disorder. As of right now, the most widely prescribed therapy (ABA) has a resulting rate of C-PTSD in over half of all autistic patients. Really scary stuff. Most allistic (non-autistic) people aren't aware of this. I wasn't either until I was recently looking for a diagnosis and professional help for myself. I found that for level one autistics like me, the best thing we can do, usually, is to seek community with fellow autistic people, and to develop a strong individual relationship with a therapist who specializes in something other than autism. Also, in my opinion, DBT is infinitely better than CBT. My therapist is a clinical psychologist, and his insight has been immensely helpful for me, but we have had to learn things together, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Sadly, too many therapists who say they specialize in ASD are not interested in hearing about our actual lived experience, and would rather continue to cause harm then change their views. Great video by the way guys.
I did CBT and i was refused to be able to unpack my very complicated past and made to feel I was the central problem in everything. If i wasn't percieved as successful in therapy i got diagnosed with BPD even though I dont actually fit the DSM. I ended up developing a specific mask for therapy. No therapist ever taught me about healthy relationships, even thought i was surrounded by dysfunctional relationships from birth. I realised recently they arent incentivised to teach on this because either they dont know or it would force them to maintain a healthy power balance with clients, which they dont want to. I feel like i had a huge misunderstanding of what psychology was about, I wanted it to liberate me but its about normalising people. If you are neurodivergent you will never be normal so they become frustrated because they cannot achieve their aim and turn against you. Im suspicious even of DBT because i dont want to go near behaviorism again.
@@mistressofstones Yess, I definitely relate to so much of what you said and understand why you would be apprehensive. I'm sorry you've also had that experience. You're right about behavioral therapy in general having a lot of problems, it's all based on similar foundations of "normalizing". The difference between DBT and why I think it's a bit better is the dialectics part of it. For me, and specifically the way my therapist and I talk about it, is it allows you to work on feeling more comfortable with the paradoxes of life. Two conflicting ideas can be true at once kind of thing. But the best thing I've done for my mental health is to work on developing healthy relationship, like you also mentioned. And just trying to be kinder and more gentle with myself in general. It's rough out here :/ best of luck to you
One thing not considered here is the sexual preferences of the men themselves. At some point, i realised that i was attracted exclusively to men who are sexually submissive. When i started looking for submissive men on the dating market though, i found them to be on average far worse personality-wise than the guys i dated before. I don't feel like misogynistic is even exactly the right word for the problem. It wasn't that they did or said anything misogynistic, it was the air of hyper-awareness of interpersonal power dynamics and and attempts to socially dominate me or to manipulate me into seeing them as hyper-masculine. I got the impression that due to their sexual preferences towards sexually dominant women (who are very rare), they had no success and fell into manosphere spaces. And those spaces condition men to act in certain ways that are distinctly unattractive to exactly the type of women they are attracted to. They might think it's working, if it attracts some women. Relying on scientific stats will always have this drawback of a lack of specificity. There will always be people who will actually reduce their chances by optimizing for general population.
I don't wanna pretend that it has any scientific value, but my personal preference is for women that are socially dominant and sexually submissive, and I have found that most women I pursued because of the former criterion also happened to fit the second one. I know that the situations are not as comparable because traditional gender roles push men to be sexually dominant and women submissive, but maybe the correlation I observerd can also be found amongst men?
@@matthieurouyer1826this is a well-known trend, people who are dominant in normal life, regardless of gender, often want a release from that in their sex life, while people who are less powerful in life may want to experience power through sex.
@@matthieurouyer1826 people who are genuinely leadership-type, i have no problem with. I think it's quite different for men and women because men feel a lot of pressure to act socially dominant when they don't actually feel like it. A lot of the men in my life feel either pressure to conform or problems for not conforming to traditional ideas of masculinity. But as a woman, my social assertiveness levels flow naturally depending on the context and i don't really feel pressure about it either way. It seems to me that in feminist countries where social assertiveness in women isn't looked down upon, you won't so easily see this trauma in women as you see in men. And what i'm talking about is not assertiveness or confidence, it's more of a manipulative type of dominance. As if the person is so insecure that they see everything as a competition and every conversation as something to "win". I've
@@matthieurouyer1826you just said what I’ve been trying to explain to myself so perfectly. I was never able to put this dynamic and my preferences into words like this before
Thank you so much for a reasonable and empathetic look at this complex issue!! There is a lot of temptation when viewing this problem from the outside to judge and laugh at incels so we can distance ourselves from an uncomfortable reality: dating is not fair. People owe you respect, people owe you general kindness, but they don't owe you love. And that is a fundamental unfairness that can be one of the hardest truths to swallow for all of humanity. Even if people do care for you, it's easy to think it's always conditional- you must be polite, you must be happy, you must be helpful, or who would love you then? But if I could give one message to incels it's that you are NOT special-- in the best way possible. We all question if we are lovable and we all mold ourselves to fit in better with others. The trick is finding your peace with who you want to be. People will be sympathetic if you find it in yourself to be true to yourself as you can be while still caring about the people around you. You don't need the whole world, you just need a few people who get it and fuck with you. Focus on what you can change for the better and make your peace with what you can't. Truly that's my advice for every lost soul. It's not perfect and no one is saying this shit isn't hard. But it's up to you. If what you want is change, then fight for it. And those that take the "black pill" aren't really giving up hope, or they wouldn't still be looking everywhere for people who disagree with them. They don't WANT it to be true. And if they can't see that for themselves, then they are doomed to be right.
Also- this is an individualistic take because it was meant for A person to read. That doesn't mean that all of this stuff can't and shouldn't be pushed back on a societal scale. Beauty standards suck and so does ableism and racism and all the rest that makes things even harder for people. But if that's the problem at hand then we all need to make changes in a larger way and not let that turn us to solitary hate.
I used to be a "nice guy" when i was a teenager, and really only started getting along with girls when i abandoned that mindset. Feeling owed connection for being "nice" is an unattractive form of entitlement. But it was clear that the self pity i was feeling when i was younger, prevented me from being an interesting fun person to be around. All of my serious relationships have been with people who knew that I was trans though, so i think a lot of my struggles came from this deep sense that there was something wrong with me. Pretending to be a guy was probably the biggest deepest wrongest thing i was doing at the time. Once i really started being myself things started improving. I even dated more in my pre-HRT baby trans phase, where I didn't have my look put together and I was basically a twink who wore skirts and makeup. Which I now look back on as a bit cringe because i was bad at it, but that authenticity was more attractive than the guy i used to pretended to be.
This was a great video and I think will be super helpful for those trying to get loved ones friends and people who are just generally in the manosphere. Top tier work lads :)
Love it, great conversation. These topics are of interest to me because I was the type of guy that would easily fall into the manosphere rabbit hole. I was lucky enough to get into reading philosophy and sociology (in conjunction with other factors) and avoid that. Thank you for the content F.D.
Wow, I left a warning on one of his videos a while back that clipped his debate with a redpiller and told him that he risks getting lumped in with them. I am glad he took it to heart.
I JUST finished watching your video and in it you said you had the talk with Murphy on your podcast, I checked it and was like, "Where's the video? Did it get taken down? Damn, YT really not letting FD win." But then it gets uploaded. Guess we had the usual difficulties.
Learn to cook. Good food is a massive sensory experience. It takes time and effort, which shows that you care about and prioritize that person in your life. This doesn't just apply to romantic relationships either. There's a reason it's a trope in most cultures that "food is love" and when something bad happens to a family we drop off ready to eat meals. Providing food for your romantic partner, and feeding your family is an easy way to demonstrate to them how much you care for them. Of course, the better the food is.... the more they'll appreciate it.
Notes: QThe economics of inceldom (22:20)a If there's too many men than women, men are playing musical chairs, since Most people date monogamously. Men compete in money, looks and personality, etc
from my perspective as a queer dude the discussion about physical attractiveness is really baffling because in my experience many types of men are considered attractive, much more widely so than types of women
@@Penterror they are all young skinny or "slim thick" women who usually wear straight or wavy hair and have conventionally attractive faces lmao. these are your examples of different body types?? lol
Thank you so much for resisting the urge to put out hot takes on international conflicts. As someone who's been to both Israel and the West Bank and who has spent most of their life studying what's going on there, it's one of the most convoluted situations on earth and defies simple explanations. Recently I saw someone talking about how the discourse on it right now feels a lot like a football game where everyone just picks a side largely because that's who all their friends and neighbors are rooting for without really studying what's going on. Overall I wish Americans were more involved in what's going on outside of our country than we currently are, but I also don't want people to bull rush in to other people's issues as America has been wont to do time and time again.
Very interesting to see there's a correlation between economic disparity and the rise of inceldom, because I would have hypothesized it too. Not the only factor, and perhaps not even causality, but yeah.
I've realized redpill/manosphere men have valid concerns and fears that they've observed in dating, however due to a misogynistic, overly negative and transactional worldview they take their observations to hateful conclusions about women. They automatically blame women for all of their problems. Yes, women absolutely contribute to the problems, but more often the case its a myriad of socioeconomic, historical forces and human influences (including manosphere themselves) at play. But I guess it easier for them to just blame women then take the deep look at how we got here.
I do agree overall with what you say but women do have a good amount of blame in this situation. The reason, they have benefited from femenism, being able to work and climb the corporate ladder to get better salaries, being able to enter jobs that before women were excluded from from a legal point of view or a social one. But men haven't benefited from this at all, they still are expected to be the money makers, in terms of dating, men are the ones that have to make the first move, women still won't do it even of the guy is safe. Also the idea of a husband that takes care of the majority of the household chores at the expense of his ability to make money is looked down upon, men aren't allowed to step into more femenine roles but women can step into more masculine ones. The thing that keeps this from changing? It's women's dating preferences, if women loved a man who would cook and clean for them, even at the expense of his ability to make money, men would jump on the opportunity but again this doesn't happen.
I'm interested in the point you were making (23 min mark) about a ratio of more available men to women driving incel behavior. We see cities like Denver - very liberal by most available data, but famous for having a high ratio of single men to women - to the point where the city is nicknamed "Menver." Yet, if there is a high incel population here, I've never seen it. Is this an outlier in the data, or are there isolated pockets (military bases, etc) where this problem is exacerbated? Would be curious to learn more.
I also live in Denver, however I happen to be black and mostly associate with communities of other black people and latinos and I can assure you the inceldom is rife here. I think its really more of a function of who you associate with. Congrats though lol it seems like you're surrounded by a good crowd of people.
this is such an amazing and interesting discussion. i'm so glad you posted this interview in its entirety. i'll also add my own thoughts, as an asexual aromantic. which, btw, i was so happy to be acknowledged, honestly it means so much. we're often excluded from these discussions or essentially told we don't exist, because people say that dating/sex/romance is a universal and universally important drive. and that brings me to what I actually meant to say. i think incel culture and goals (and this discussion as a result) focus on dating almost exclusively. but a lot of the suggestions brought up and the struggles discussed help so much with self-esteem and general health, both mental and physical, which is so so important. not to say that dating isn't important, i know for a lot of people it is, but i wonder if some incels who follow this advice end up realizing they're not as obsessed with getting into a relationship as before, just because they feel better about themselves on their own.
mmhhh. Listened through this. I probably count as an incel And honestly, when I'm in crisis I become a poster **TM**. My general take is this. I don't understand whats wrong with me. I talk with others and they say I'm nice, kind, interesting, etc. I talk with my therapist (on meds for years btw) and they say I have a lot of really positive relationship skills. I go out and do my thing, meet people in the process, and things don't really go anywhere. I can say I have a lot of friends, but 0 of them are inner circle because frankly, they don't care. I've tried opening them up to the inner circle, in all the permutations you can think of, and it hasn't worked. I just don't know what's wrong with me. And like at this point I feel I do shit more just to feel deserving of the isolation. I was SO fucking active, and had one writer (yes, someone wrote about me) write "they find an intense balance between work, community service, and friendships." Now, I use poorness as an excuse to not do laundry for weeks at a time, just washing clothes as needed in the sink. I stay at home whenever possible. The life I lived before was too much for me, and it never succeeded in attracting a close friend let alone a partner despite me actively working on all of those aspects in allegedly healthy ways. Now I'm too tired to go shopping, despite medication and caffeine. I've developed really bad executive dysfunction. and the worst part is, through my active phase, I was also surviving an actively abusive relationship, which is what eventually broke me. But because I'm a traumatized man, by a woman, I cannot find a way to reintegrate into society. My fears, my triggers, etc, really really really need community to be fixed yet the community is incapable of doing what I ask, which only further shoves me into my rut. I don't know what options I even have. I've tried everything. I really have. I just haven't been lucky. And I'm tired of the lack of agency. Thats probably the most frustrating them. I'm super high functioning, even with executive dysfunction. If there is something that I can choose to do well, or get good at, I will succeed. It won't be linear and I can cope with those setbacks. I feel like my growth mindset is genuinely impressive for 99% of things. But when it comes to social stuff, I've tried and tried and tried and tried for like 2 decades at this point and it's gotten nowhere. It's not something you have agency in. It's lucky. Some people just aren't lucky.
Thanks for bringing him to my attention, FD! I'll have to look for him. But I'm not on TikTok. I really enjoyed listening to your conversation together. I'm a parent of two Gen Z young adults. I'm hoping that I've raised my son to be a feminist and a good human being. I just hope that he finds someone who is a good match, someone to have a healthy relationship with.
For all your critiques about the red pill, your best advice to men was "be yourself" and "find hobbies." In order to have different outcomes you have to change and I think there is a large part of the red pill that gives it to men straight that the only way to become more successful is to become "better," to improve.
I agree that some incels will have a hard time going out and dating because of their mental health and other disbilities. However, at the same time... those same incels have entitled unrealistic standards when it comes to women. They prefer to date women who would judge them based on their disabilities and looks. However, they never consider dating women on their own dating range. I.E. average Janes and women with disablities similar to them. I'm not saying that's all they deserve. I'm just saying they never consider it nor have they give those women the time or the day. As a matter of fact... they judge the same women who have similar issues like them.
This is demonstrably false. The overwhelming majority of incels want their female equivalent in terms of looks. Considering the fact that the majority of men are single, while the majority of women are not, this suggests that women are the ones dating out of their league more often than men.
1:18:57 I appreciate FD acknowledging how he has to play around his audience. It can be kindve tiresome hearing him have to take the long way to a point, knowing it's just because he needs to avoid upsetting a fraction of his market. It's upsetting to see them not realizing how much theyre being pandered to/coddled. But I do understand that he's got to do what he's got to do and appreciate his dedication to honesty. And it's not a unique issue to him or leftist creators ofc. Right leaning creators will have to do the same runaround to avoid upsetting their viewer base when they say something true that doesn't toe the party line. 1:25:05 I might have to watch the podcasts more.
apologies for sounding simplistic but this was a good and necessary video. I watched it with my 15 year old kid so they have an idea of what it's like out there.
The point is made that incels would be more attractive if they lost the bitterness and misogyny, but do they really think that was the starting point? That it wasn't the result of failures and negative feedback?
it's reverse causation fallacy. He is reversing the cause and the effect. In reality the bitterness and "misogyny" is an effect caused by repeated failures and being lied to by society. Fiq tries to argue that the cause is their bitterness and the effect is the repeated failures, when it is the other way around. It is your classic informal logic fallacy. There probably are some fringe cases like that but to argue the extreme exceptions prove the rule is idiotic. He would ask an incel if they "go outside" then says shit like that. you can't even make this shit up. Very few men start out just hating women lol. It is so insane this is such a popular talking point. Fiq really cannot think critically even though it is basically his job.
@@silversteinmma YESSSS This!!!!! If you talk to a good handful of them, you'll notice a pattern. They want to enter the dating market, find love and romantic adventures like anyone. Then when they try, they fail. So they attempt any and all solutions but it doesn't stick for some reason. Maybe they are autistic or they come from a bad background that didn't build the social foundation for them. It can be many factors but they can't put their fingers on it. Some do know what's wrong but the execution of doing well is somehow escapable to them. It's one thing to know in theory and another to execute in actions. After many failure, they give up and it really kills their desires. Which settles and becomes bitterness. It is not the norm that these men just hate women first. It's after repeated failures and discrimination from failing. Because if you fail in a embarrassing social way or repeatedly enough, you can become ostracized from the social group. Because even the social group has a tolerance limit before they move away. Fiq even admits he fails at understanding this and gives criticism with very few actual solutions. Around 58:31 mark. So I find it hard to even finish his videos cause he'll hit some points then fail at articulating and understanding it. He even admits that he "Cops out" of certain things talked about at around 1:09:29 or at 1:14:49, where he talks about the strong market move is to dunk on incels. I'd rather listen to someone who can see both sides and try to find a solution. We have enough extremes on all sides. Not enough balanced outlooks.
@@fayelis I agree with your first sentence, and your second doesn't make sense in relation to the first. "They are the bad guys", the incels? I would say they're behavior is often bad, but only billionaires have the agency necessary for them to be evil. Evil requires A LOT of agency imo.
What I would love to see discussed more is the difference between the sexual market versus the marriage market. It would be interesting to know how importance of physical attraction, intelligence and personality rank dependent on the different markets. Height might matter less when looking for a husband rather than a casual partner.
I think it’s pretty disingenuous to speak 54:53 minutes on incels, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, and tik Tok instead of real manosphere issues, like I get talking about the “figureheads” but just as social media makes us want to think Umar Johnson speaks for all black people don’t use these PUA, and Heretics to define the whole manosphere or people who struggled or are currently struggling with woman.
The main problem is that neither of these people have ever encountered someone who cant form romantic relationships in real life. They’re just going off of things they see on the internet because they can’t really understand someone who is involuntarily celibate as a human being rather than an archetype.
I've been sitting with this all day. I'm not sure the closing advice really helps with Autistic people in particular. The barriers to meeting the thresholds you discuss can be difficult to impossible. I think it actually is likely more about building your personal local community before you start thinking about romantic relationships. Having community to support you in betterment goals will get you a lot closer to a relationship. I think so many incels don't even have that which is why they go to the incel community.
55:48 yes that's the reality right there. A good percentage are already "normal" or even beyond normal levels of attractiveness, the problem is being neurodivergent and the answer to that is...learn how to act neurotypical? It's hard not to feel a sense of doom
Very true. But I think we can add one more reason which is that some of those "normal" looking incels sometimes have unrealistic standards. In a way they are actually fake incels.
@@leoskyi I agree, that's got to be holding some back. I would classify those who will accept nothing but so-called "top-tier" women to be fake incels as well.
I also think that people who are generally are oppressed are more qualified to speak on the oppressor because they have to survive them. Many white people and men get angry when the opposing speak about them and think that their opinion doesn’t come from a place of ignorance. But black people, women, or whatever intersection it is always have something that’s more accurate to reality to say because historically and individually they had to survive *them* So it makes more sense to me why a white guy would need to do more research and get a second opinion before speaking on certain topics of blackness.
I wouldn't say they are more qualified. I would say they probably have a certain perspective that might be overlooked. There are plenty of black people that don't have a clue about racism but are effected by it. Just like anything else on the planet. People are effected by capitalism but many know nothing about it
But white people oppress other white people and black people oppress other black people. It is shockingly simple minded to automatically think that white male = oppressor .. I don’t even know how to talk to someone that thinks like that When it comes to race all groups should feel free to talk openly and should be open for criticism . You can’t hide yourself away from criticism just because of your whiteness or blackness And no, I disagree that someone with darker skin tone will automatically have a more realistic take on something due to their past. That doesn’t make sense. No, you have to look at their level of education and experience and reputation. Then go from there.
@@brianmeen2158 Right. So that would mean. A rich white man would get a second opinion from a working class or below white man before making a public comment, video, or whatever. That’s classism. I’m sure you’ve heard comments from out of touch CEO’s and rich capitalists. So my point still stands. Nobody said to begin with white men aren’t oppressed. I’ve had to learn to be careful when commenting on black women or LGBT issues. Coming from a place of maleness and heteronormativity. That’s how intersectionality works. You sound out of touch right now honestly and put your ego aside and hear me out honestly for your own growth. Your comment is the equivalent of that Rich CEO trying to lecture working class people that they can get wealthy too and all they have to do is “work hard” and that everything is “fair”, that “they got it from scratch” knowing in the back of their head that they either received loans from their parents, they live in a wealthy community full of opportunities, top of the country schools, etc. On paper it seems honestly fair but you look at the details those Wealthy white people have advantages other white don’t have, matter a fact their suffering is the reason why they’re rich. Same here. On paper quoting from you “level of education and experience and reputation” should be qualified but when historically and statistically urban environments were intentionally conditioned to not build good experiences, reputation, and education, and those urban environment black people were placed there by manipulation or terrorism. While white *sub* urban environments actually had the adequate resources for an actual fair shot then those suburbanites then terrorize any one who doesn’t look like them so they can’t share their opportunities. You can’t say it’s the same thing. You might deny or bend it. I’m not trying to 1up you or bring you down, white guilt you, or whatever. But these are proven historical facts and maybe there is dread you feel for personalizing the oppression white men have engaged in. Just understand black people or non-white person are not responsible for you taking it personal. We are not attacking you. It’s not our fault y’all take it on a personal level. The sensation of dread black people face, other minorities face, women, lgbtq+, etc. Generally is a lot worse than the guilt and dread white men feel (Again we’ve never asked for or are responsible for y’all taking it personal) But the disconnect is so great that it may feel like the end of the world to white men. That you have to gaslight us that it is fair and we should judged by “experience or education” or whatever utopia bs. To make it seem like y’all really got it out the mud. But in fact you sound just like that Rich white CEO crying into his dollars when his white employees are complaining about wages, working hours, and regulations. Coping to the understanding that he is in fact oppressing them, taking advantage of them, and he feels guilty for it ( _They didn’t ask for his guilt they asked for fair wages and reform_) So see a running theme here? I didn’t ask for your guilt so you can type a paragraph coping with it. I’m asking for awareness and you not to gaslight me things are fair and peaches and cream. P.S I’m not angry or triggered, or whatever other term you can label me so you can cope with what I’ve just said. I am just passionate. I am also compassionate for at least giving you a well thought out analogy and typing it out for you. Others will just leave you in the dark. But it does take a lot of humility to accept what I’ve just said.
@@brianmeen2158 Right. So that would mean. A rich white man would get a second opinion from a working class or below white man before making a public comment, video, or whatever. That’s classism. I’m sure you’ve heard comments from out of touch CEO’s and rich capitalists. So my point still stands. Nobody said to begin with white men aren’t oppressed. I’ve had to learn to be careful when commenting on black women or LGBT issues. Coming from a place of maleness and heteronormativity. That’s how intersectionality works. Understand that historically and statistically Afro-Americans have been terrorized and placed in _Urban_ environments which were intentionally conditioned and neglected to preform worse while suburban (White) environments have not only been taken care of but terrorized and gatekept us from escaping those environments. Proven fact in history that affects of until now. Now imagine the same guys you are talking about who oppress euro people too. A wealthy euro CEO who always preaches some self righteous mumbo jumbo about working hard and how he built his company from scratch in his garage. When in fact if you do research he got some sort of special privileges like loans from his parents, a bougie/wealthy childhood, being able to afford top of the line schools. On paper it “go to school/ follow the American dream” seems honestly fair but you look at the details those Wealthy euro people have advantages other euro don’t have, matter a fact their suffering is the reason why they’re rich. Now imagine then White CEO hears complaints from his employees about wages, work hours, and reform. He thens calls them lazy and say they don’t work hard because he has to gaslight himself and others because if not he would feel guilty. He has to tell himself that story or he would feel like a bad person taking advantage of his employees. He’s effectively coping with the reality he never got it out the mud. Not only he’s pampered but he’s pampered from the suffering of others. Now look at this. You might deny or bend the reality that Afro people historically and currently face but denial, that’s you coping. Just like that CEO. I’m not trying to 1up you or bring you down, white guilt you, or whatever. But these are proven historical facts and maybe there is dread you feel for personalizing the oppression white men have engaged in. Just understand afro people or non-euro person are not responsible for you taking it personal. We are not attacking you. It’s not our fault y’all take it on a personal level. The sensation of dread of us and other minorities. Generally is a lot worse than the guilt and dread euro men feel (Again we’ve never asked for or are responsible for y’all taking it personal) But the disconnect is so great that it may feel like the end of the world to euro men. That yall have to gaslight us that it is fair and we should judged by “experience or education” (referencing you) or whatever utopia bs. Understanding that it’s not. Your paragraph is a cope. Similar to the CEO trying to deal with the idea that it is in fact unfair and he knows the truth. He’s experiencing dread and guilt ( _They didn’t ask for his guilt they asked for fair wages and reform_) So see a running theme here? I didn’t ask for your guilt so you can type a paragraph coping with it. I’m asking for awareness and you not to gaslight me things are fair and peaches and cream. I’m not triggered , here to attack you, or any of that other bs. I have to disclaim because it’s another method that people use to cope and dismiss what I’m saying. Actually digest what I’ve said. You are not personally responsible for euro privileged or ignorance. You also land on an intersection like the rest of us(class). You do not have to defend on the behalf of Euro people. P.S do not get triggered yourself by my words like “cope” and my strong rhetoric. Actually listen to what I said. Find if you disagree find something tangible and something you can dismiss and good faith and not out of charged emotions or guilt. White=Euro Black=Afro
So I came here because I was told truth bombs would be dropped, but unfortunately it's really @1:00:11 that the advice for incel finally happens. I can speak from experience as someone who survived the incel phase and is currently in a loving relationship of 11 years. Having a girlfriend is really overatted. I would direct lonely men with personality disorders watch this video called "Henry David Thoreau: Why Being a 'Loser' Is a Win" instead. Basically the only way to win a rigged game is to not compete at all, and true happiness is living your best life without worrying about what other people think. But you're generally not going to get that kind of advice on youtube where literally everybody is worried about what other people think.
It's funny the way Macken reacts to the introduction (regarding the manospjere/incel community or whatever) because on the anti-red pill side he's often considered a member of the so called "Intellectual redpill bros"
ive got autism n im afab but i think that if i was amab i couldve absolutely fell into the incel n blackpill shit ( not the misogyny part bc i think id still be queer either way lol ) bc of the fact that im rly plain looking n also cant talk to anybody let alone women even now :/ honestly watching u n the fact that the basics of it remind me of myself is why i can feel sympathetic towards them
Big thing I think is ignored here - for obvious reasons - the perspective of women. It’s hard to be even an attractive woman. Most women I know have struggled more than any incel. With body image, with self hatred, with hatred from people around them, from society at large, from family, from friends, from relationships or lack thereof. And yet, we don’t see an incel movement among women. What we see among lonely, unattractive, autistic, etc women is that they find a way to live without all of the things they are told they need. For a lot of incels, I think that’s what they must strive for. Incels expect their lives to magically heal when they are finally given what they’re owed- a woman. But that won’t happen. Incels need to understand they are not owed women. They are not owed love from women, attraction from women, attention from women, sex from women, or relationships from women. Is it hard to be an ugly misogynistic autistic man with no friends, prospects, goals, aspirations? Yes. But these people must de center women from their lives and center finding happiness outside of patriarchy.
Excellent comment. As a woman who is single and knows many single women, for all sorts of reasons, the sense of entitlement shown by some men baffles me. Life doesn’t owe us a smooth ride with all our dreams are fulfilled and the art of living is in reframing circumstances and learning the lesson that most of our needs can be met in multiple ways, need to be met in order, from basic provision and security up to self actualisation. Then we can be intentional about building a fulfilling life with a man or not.
Preach! They are not listening to the stories of women who are all going through the exact same issues as a lot of these men while also being mentally ill, or Black, or transgender or disabled. I have observed that a lot of these men are deeply narcissistic in that they for some reason believe that they are the only ones who go through any of that stuff. From my experience, Black women learn at a very early age that we are ugly with unloveable personalities that no man could ever want. I learned that by the age of fourteen and spent the next 20 years fighting against the self hatred I'd been taught about women who look like me. I think they need to listen to the stories of women, especially the stories of women who don't look like the women they so often covet.
Regarding Black men… there’s absolutely a group… The Divestors… it’s a small group but FD has shown a dim light on there existence… But women as a larger group, you might have a point… the larger portion of the women you describe may be the more ardent Feminists that people seem to hate as well… just my thoughts.
This is an spetacularly useless comment, to the point I wonder if you even watched the whole video. Yes, women often struggle more than men, but, no offense, so fucking what? That doesn't make the suffering of these men any less real or deserving of empathy, and just going "oh but women suffer more" is not just playing oppression olympics, it is in fact a common patriarchal point dressed in progressive language. Men can't complain, men can't cry, men should just man up and stop whinning and take care of their problem with stoic perseverance. More than that, "find happiness outside of patriarchy" is pretty much the same as saying "think positive" to someone who is depressed. Because even if you manage to find meaning in something outside of relationships, it still sucks to not have a romantic partner, it still sucks to not have sex, or to be unnatractive, and that's not gonna change or go away just because you manage to land your dream job as a garden bush stylist. I'm pretty sure most of the women you mention also aren't peachy keen about their circumstances, either. If all you want to say is that women have no need to empathize with these men, then that's 100% true, this is a problem that men have to figure out amongst ourselves, but you could word that out without any of that other bullshit you spewed. Here's the good news, though: you are in perfect conditions to make a career out of dunking manosphere types online! And to quote Murphy: "Welcome to not solving the problem"
The word “incel” was literally coined by a woman, describing herself. Being involuntarily celibate and being entitled or misogynistic are two totally separate things. Would you tell a broke person that they need to understand they’re not entitled to money? We all know life isn’t fair. That doesn’t practically help people rise above their circumstances. If your point is that men turn to violence more often than women to solve their problems, I agree that needs to change.
One thing I think it’s crucial for incels to understand about the importance of physical attraction is that it’s not just about sex appeal. When F.D says they “grossify” it I think what he’s getting at is that, well for one they add a lot of weird, racist, pseudoscience,but two, they make it purely about sexual. When in reality attractiveness like hygiene, fashion sense, etc. Signal someone who for lack of a better term “fits in” to society. Someone who’s going to A. Not be weird. B. Be a good time. C. Probably have their life together. You do not have to look like Brad Pitt to communicate these signals. You really just have to achieve a level of normalcy in your appearance and hygiene. This though. Is much much harder than it seems to people who just get it. But it is possible.
We have an ongoing problem here because Academia has set itself up to never be able to objectively study these topics, even though academia has better techniques to study topics generally. So investigating these topics has to fall to laymen, who can be honest potentially but who don't know the best techniques for studying things generally. There really is no best of both worlds solution here because nobody who could be an academic is going to instead independently research these topics. And if they present themselves to you as independent, look and see who is paying them.
I came here expecting to hear grandstanding, but I really liked this discussion. Research based, with an actually intersectional approach to the subject, that acknowledges the class, race, neurodivergence and social climate around those intersections with masculinity. I agree that being passionate about something can be interpreted as being successful. That's unironically good advice. I can't believe FD agreed that the incels recognize the problem (in an extremely caricatured and exaugurated way, that is unhelpful to even them) and the biggest issue is finding an actual path to achieve that. The left can offer these people things to get passionate and informed about, if we're willing to try and figure out a way to package our message in accessible and friendly language. If we get them voting it will even create jobs for them in traditionally masculine industries, cause green infrastructure will take a lot of manufacturing and construction. If I were trying to explain this to activists who might dislike the mention of the subject, which I have (to varying success) I usually find that explaining how: reducing the number of mentally unwell men has a direct relation to how many abusive men there are. The best way to fight bigotry is to educate, and you have to meet people where they are if you want them to listen. Breaking the cycle of abuse in a demographic way, at the root, is done through education not harassment or retribution. It goes hand in hand with justice system reform, from a philosophical perspective. I'm gonna watch another podcast and see if I want to subscribe, I watched the whole video and I have no objections at all (as a leftist with concern for mens issues from a non-redpill perspective). Completely in support. Much respect for being willing to challenge assumptions/the prevailing narrative, and directly seeking personal growth. The last ten minutes, chef's kiss to both F.D. and Murphy. I did not expect this. There are perfect enemies, there just aren't a lot of them, and they're extremely wealthy, private and out of reach for us. Incels are a group of poor/POC/neurodivergent/PTSD people with untreated mental issues. I'm glad murphy really differentiated between incels and fresh and fit types, who are terrible. F'D.'s comparison to muslim people's vilification post 9/11 is a great analogy, and flattening the depth of variation within the community. Really great stuff. I'm saving this video.
I wish in one discussion on this topic of all the videos I watch would someone please bring up the role of Abrahamic religion and its foundational beliefs of marriage, women, sex and the role shaming people. Two, the causal factor of poverty and broken families. Three, the mostly likely factor are toxic intergenerational family trama systems and narcissistic parent(s). Growing up with narcissistic parents its easier to understand the "redpill" or "blackpill" explanations for why you can't find a partner, especially when your younger. Than the better explanation of the mal adaptiveness and inability to form healthy relationships with normal people and partners when you grew up in an abusive environment. Most people don't understand this or have access to therapy to explain why they can't meet someone or form toxic relationships themselves. The better question to ask to alot of these guys is not why do they hate women but what was your childhood/adolescents like.
I don't need your opinion on Palestine but I do think your opinion is gonna be better on average then some random off the street if only because you'd give it some due thought and looking into before spouting it off. Or you are more likely to recognize your lack of knowledge/biases and caveat appropriately.
i agree with FD when he says he doesnt have the authority to speak on it, but i still think it would be good for him to do what he can do to listen and amplify palestinian voices with his platform
@@chickengogo1683 Agree with both of you. We should still put pressure on him over it. And I call BS on FD thinking he's too under qualified to talk about it. I'm just some gamer stoner and I talk about it all the effin time! I don't give a crap lol I'm a total jack ass but I'm smart enough to see that the IDF has been 1000 times more vile than anyone they are fighting with... FD is great at diving into the minds of bad men. You know... The main azzholes responsible for the gaza situation... Nothing to offer on the discussion my azz lol. Talk about it FD! It's what any lefty should do. Granted you talked about it a lil and you're clearly on the right side but you could still do more. It's only the worst thing that we have ever seen in our lives basically... I think you would do a great job talking about it. Don't be a h bomber lib lol. I'll lose respect for anyone who acts like him and lies about feeling unqualified to talk about it, even though he clearly has talked about it in the past... Don't be shy FD. Don't be afraid of Amy Schumer screaming at you. Heck it might be funny lolz. Same goes for you chad boy. Don't puss out too dawg. You're clearly great at public speaking with people who listen to you. Some pro Palestine commentary couldn't hurt dawg. Talk about it!
im a bi trans guy so maybe not the target demo, but i really disagree with this view of what people find attractive - for me and the people ive dated in group signifiers are THE most important thing. im poor, neurodivergent, nerdy, short and plain looking - and i date people who are poor, neurodivergent, nerdy, and not conventionally attractive. i think especially for ND people dating someone you can relate to and connect with is so, so important - i would feel hugely uncomfortable and out of place dating a wealthy neurotypical with supermodel looks. thats not my scene, yknow? thats not my in group, and i think a lot of incels are looking in the wrong place, feeling out of place because they are. if youre a schlubby, nerdy autistic dude, go date some schlubby, nerdy autistic women you can relate to and connect with.
![ออกพรรษาน้ำตาหล่น - แอน อรดี [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PFZtOcY9ONA/mqdefault.jpg)
![ง้อ (ALRIGHT) - FOURTH [ TEASER ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ya6MBfo-Wvg/mqdefault.jpg)
One thing about this though - so much of my behavior as a woman is not about "evolution" necessarily but the materialist considerations that shape our behavior. If we had national childcare and child support, most women would lean on men less, and the need for a man to have money would be way lower. This isn't my biology - it's the reality of raising children in this world. And this need to "lean" on men hurts women and men because it reduces our relationship to a financial one - just a thought... otherwise, love your content!
This is not true. Wealthy women are also attracted to even wealthier men.
🤌💋🫱 LITERALLY THIS!!!!
youre wrong everything is biology
Hell yeah sister, debunk the "human nature" argument!
If it's for survival can we consider it evolution?? Maybe devolution lol cause another commentator did remind me that they did say worse economics sees a rise in inceldom. Plus I watched Black Love by intelexual and she said it was survival making so much of earlier partnership necessary. And it makes sense, I'm aro ace disabled whose real open to partnership here cause survival. Even with all my friends and family it's still hard out here y'all lol when the stakes are higher the downfall hits harder I guess
"Pick a hobby you're passionate about" - OK, check.
"Be smart and pick one that involves women" - looks at Warhammer collection in despair.
😂
I know nothing about Warhammer except for some people on TH-cam who happen to do comic dubs that often feature the Warhammer franchise or characters. And they are all women.
So idk maybe give it a shot 😅
@@8lec_R I hear you, but then we run into another thing they talked about - being in a city where there are too many men. Any girl in a game store is gonna get snatched up faster than you can say "wow nice paint job!"
@@trystongilbert1837 i feel bad for you my friend. I hope you find someone sooner rather than later
Do you paint your own miniatures? Maybe you can find a crossover between your Warhammer collection and a hobby that has more gender diversity, like painting of some sort. Maybe your community has a makerspace (that shit is rare bc those places are so expensive)? Also, maybe the library or a local fine arts center (also rare bc that shit's expensive) might have free community classes or events?
@@b.c.9358 I'd say DnD because you can paint DnD miniatures and such. Loads more women and would be kinda a cool crossover.
Thanks for a great conversation, my fellow chadlite.
Great points and we need to be more open to grabbing some of those back from that edge. Good luck on the PHD.
Is a chadlite a follower of chadlism? xD
I, as a Chad, enjoyed this conversation aswell. Hope you only the finest things fellow kings
Pretty good convo.
Based on the discussion about "hypergamy ". I think its good to point out that there can be trends socially. However i think it would be good to point out strategies to avoid needing to engage with elevating status or money, to get with women , Or to attract those women who are alot more loose with those standards that rely on monatary gain or status. (As im aware there are many different types of women out there) I think the red pillers and manospheres in general make their viewers believe that women only go for someone with elevated finance and status creating this warped image of women as though it is a purely biological and unconscious descision. I even had a irl debate with an older gentlemen discussing whether any women at all date men in lower economic status at all. To which i said theres likely an improvement in women who will date men who earn less vs wont.
I feel like this dymanic can and does cause resentment for both parties in some relationships if the man initially never wanted to rely on that for relationship success, again rsspecially if the man didnt want that to begin with , but had to engage with those standards anyways. Ultimately resulting in bad relationships outcomes (if infact both parties begin to resent each other as a result of the dymanic)
In summary, i think there should be specific advice for men who may want to attract women who dont have hefty requirements with regards to finance and money and status. And what variables or advice can be useful to gear men towards those types of women. I personally stopped watching general dating advice from more pick up qrtist types because the advice , quite frankly left me and i think alot of men despairing and disappointed, because it sort of confirms or hinges on those negitive biases. I think in 2024 there is a higher likelyhood that it is easier to find that dynamic than lets say , in the 90s.
high tier blue pill normie gang rise up
That aint you. Wuss.
Gang gang
How do I get to high tier? Is there an online course?
Let's go
@@rockotyson6111I think it's a discord server
The reason "be yourself" is the first, most intuitive advice you get about dating is not, contrary to the obvious read, because it will definitely _work._ It's because if it _doesn't work,_ deciding to _not_ be yourself _definitely will not help._
The truth is, there may or may not be someone out there who will accept you regardless of who you are, but lying to people is _not a secret cheat code to skip actually finding such a person._ If you enter relationships by misrepresenting yourself, you will only ever be in miserable failing relationships pretty much by default.
That's why the best advice isn't "be yourself" it's " be someone better". An example would be that if a guy is submissive he should probably try and be less submissive because the vast majority of women don't like that type of man. He should change, truly change, to truly stop being a less desirable version of himself.
@@JuliAuditoreWell first off, I call bullshit on your specific example. The fact of the matter is that there are dominant women who _do,_ in fact, want a submissive man and will absolutely be _more excited_ to accept you as you are even if you are the most spineless weakling. Obviously don't accept an abusive partner or anything, but forcing youself out of your comfort zone because society says your gender is not supposed to be like you is the _definition_ of toxic masculinity, and will more likely hurt you than actually work besides. If you don't have the natural tendency towards it, odds are you probably can't compete with people who _do_ for the people who _want_ that anyway. You'll never be as good at being someone else as you are at being you, through weight of practice if nothing else, so if you can't win doing _that_ you are _less likely to succeed_ trying and failing to be someone else.
But more generally, the whole point of my argument is that behavior modification is _fucking hard,_ even where it's not actually impossible. Do it if and where you can to change things you want to change _for you,_ sure, but be realistic with yourself. You shouldn't trivialize the fact that most parts of your personality are not solved by saying "just be an entirely different person, bro" any more than having an overt physical deformity can be overcome with the power of positive thinking. That's the kind of advice that leads to conversion therapy, which very noteably _doesn't work._
There are as wide a range of women out there as there are men, and they exist as outliers in pretty much the same proportion of oddities at that. If you are a submissive man, or have some other "traditionally undesirable" trait that makes it harder to find a "traditional woman," the answer is not _attempt to change your entire affect to conform to normative standards,_ It's find a nontraditional partner who thinks that's a positive. I guarantee it's more likely to not make you miserable, even if it is probably more effort in the short term.
"There's no perfect enemies anymore" might be my new catchphrase to remind myself to lead with empathy on some of these dudes out here.
I think Bezos and Elon and Queen Elizabeth when she was alive were perfect villains, but to me a villain is evil and evil requires agency. Agency requires money and power. Proletariat people don't have money and power to be a evil doers. I think murderers are better than Bezos and musk. Imagine being worth a hundred billion dollars and choosing to force people to starve and commit crimes to survive and not care or like the societal damage you cause? That's evil, shooting someone for their wallet is stupid PTSD behavior. When all your wants and needs are met, and you choose to do great harm because that's how you define success, you are evil, like Satan evil. But we don't get to talk to those people and they have civilized decorum.
@@Pistolita221youre evil
@@onlyicedcrybaby7297 You're not a villain you're a troll with an obvious name. You wish you had the agency to be evil.
If we could only accept, there are no perfect allies either the world would be a better place.
I lead with empathy every time, and these guys will still attack me. I lead with understanding every time and these guys still call me a f*ggot for having long hair, say they hate me and can’t understand what the fuck I am because I use they/them and have it in my Instagram bio. I lead with empathy and understanding and every time it’s “hope you add to the 40%”. I won’t stop leading with empathy and understanding, but Jesus Christ is it difficult.
If you aren’t a cis straight dude who looks traditionally masculine, most of these guys will immediately write you off and insult you. If you’re in any way queer you’ll be insulted immediately. God forbid if you’re a woman trying to talk to these guys with empathy, then it’s even worse than the hate I get in return.
I love so much how they’re both thrilled and genuinely interested in each other’s perspective. Thank you for this!!!
Cheers.
Something you guys touched, but didn't really address is on how to build up that resilience when it comes to bad relationships, bad sexual experiences, and bad break ups, the kind of things that lead someone to build resentment and bitterness, because you can work on your body, on your charisma, or your communication skills, on your status, on your mental health, and that will certainly help you get a GF or a hook up, but none of that prepares you to deal with a bad partner
And it only takes 2 or 3 bad encounters, for some people even just 1, and you will start thinking that all the effort you put in, wasn't worth it, and that you were better off with your left hand instead of spending time, money, and emotional energy trying to meet someone else
They mentioned therapy several times
@@Dotubetoodaloonot everyone has access to healthcare
@@Dotubetoodalooprivelged af view. Should men who can't afford therapists just die alone? What kind of ridiculous caste-eugenics are you advocating for?
It's hard to understand how someone would go about "learning" that... If you are attracting a bad type of women, then you have three options. Keep doing it, work on yourself, or just tap out. There is a type of dude out there who blames others for the situations he puts himself in, and that tends to carry over to dating. If I get cheated on twice I don't say "all women cheat I'm better off alone" I say "what were the aspects of her personality that caused her to cheat, what are the aspects of my personality that caused me to turn a blind eye, how could I have better anticipated that she might be unfaithful, etc" and by the time you've given it a good few days thought you should be able to approach your next relationship with the tools to build up something healthier.
Perfect answer @@LUM-kb2rl
The "just go to therapy" advice is the most priviledge advice that you can hear, if you have mental illness and you have no money you will not find help. The odd of finding a competent therapist with the right kind of orientation for your issues, while beeing affordable, is akin to a miracle. Give actionnable advice for Self therapy (for example mindfulness exercice to manage depression) instead of the "just go to therapy" advice who will only encourage negative bias against the practice since they would not have the help they need.
Oh, I love this comment. Man people throw therapy at other people like as if it’s so easy to find a therapist. Not only are their financial challenges, but finding a therapist who actually works with you can take a while. Oh my god yes. This sounds really simple and basic, but deep breath it’s just really so good. For me it’s like a secret pleasure. It’s a reminder that I keep my own counsel.
Fax.
It’s used to completely brush you off. You try and open-up to someone about your life and they completely lock you out with “go to therapy!”. Like it’s a wall they throw in your face when you dared to be human.
Group-processing other people’s emotions isn’t a burden, it’s fundamental to any relationship that’s closer than acquaintances.
I don't think you're wrong, in fact you're totally right. However, he has made it Abundantly clear that he won't give advice on subjects he's not learned on... not everyone who can tell you what these sociological studies say knows fuckall about best therapeutic practice. This guy is all about sociological study, so his advice will be constrained by that.
If we're frustrated by that the solution is not "make everybody who talks about xyz issue become an amateur therapist in their TH-cam videos" the answer is to start targeting the systematic barriers that make therapy so unaffordable
A couple of guys I know have joined men's support groups (peer support), or go to group therapy with a mental health professional present. Some of these are informal and free, others are low-cost. There's also Men's Shed, a club for guys to get together, make stuff, and hang out. If men are dealing with addiction, there are 12-Step groups that run men's-only meetings.
There are tons of men traditional therapy models don't work for, and there are other types of things to try, depending on what's needed.
It’s also worth noting that the personalities of men are often modified by their economic viability. To be frank, broke men are often mean bc they’re upset with their life circumstances. No one wants to date the mean guy. Also, Much like some people are afraid that if they become a minority they’ll be treated badly, lower earning men are afraid to be partnered with women who earn more bc they’re concerned with how power dynamics will shift because of it and assume women will “take advantage” of them in some significant way.
A lot of women (but not all) also just prefer to have a partner who makes more than they do, usually out of economic necessity (cause rents are SKYROCKETING). It's hard to blame someone who's barely 21, has no career fresh out of college with tens of thousands of dollars in debt for taking free meals and preferring partners who can financially help or at least don't need support themselves. I think most women who care about income are basically forced to care, cause economics.
@@Pistolita221they prefer men that earn, because pregnancy will remove their own ability to do so
@@shontoo6979Not that much as it used to.
On the messaging side of things, I would go with ‘economic condition/status/situation rather than ‘viability’. No one working working a forty hour or more work week wants to read the comments and infer that they are simply ‘unviable’ despite doing everything they were told to do and trying their hardest.
This sounds like you've personally mostly dated broke men and don't really know how wealthy men behave. Study after study after study has shown that wealthier people are more callous and less empathetic than poor people. If you keep attracting mean, broke people then maybe there is something about you that keeps picking these folks as partners. At a societal level the reality is wealth = mean.
I appreciate your work FD. I'm a dude, out here, trying to be better. Be encouraged, keep it cooking
then dont watch him hahaha
@@marvin2678 Word
That last question about how to avoid upsetting people with certain facts, is actually something I’ve been trying to deal with for a long time.
I know it’s kind of silly to say it on the Internet, but I think tone helps a lot. Right there, the fact that I prefaced this with “I think” probably took some edge off of what I was saying. If you make statements coming off like a curious researcher rather than an all-knowing guru, it tends to deflect lots of vitriol. People might still criticize you or correct you, but criticism can still be useful.
This is something deeply upsetting to me. Having to water down things to make them easier to swallow. Especially when people are aggressively wrong and you have to play extremely soft, knowing they would've been nowhere near as gentle with you.
@@tylersamuels4438 All I can says is, when it works, and you actually get the stubborn mule to sit down and think for a second, it's deeply satisfying, kind of like taming a wild beast. Doubly so when you actually get to enjoy their company and maybe even learn something from them, because of it. In some cases, they can be surprisingly friendly once they're no longer caught up in winning the argument.
Often what I need to do though is step away for a second and not say the first words that come to mind. My first words tend to be aimed towards hurting them or bruising their ego, so I need to get that out of my system before I can work towards a conversation that manages to go somewhere.
Still, I hear you. In-person, sometimes focusing on being diplomatic gets in the way of me keeping track of my own facts and arguments. It can be super frustrating when I can't think straight because I'm too busy thinking about how to manage the vibe of the conversation.
True. Which is incredibly frustrating. Anything short of complete babying and rhese incel dudes will pop off insulting me in every way imaginable. I always try to lead with understanding and kindness, and the majority of the time I attempt to engage I get called slurs because I have long hair and piercings and use they/them. Same thing every time. Repeat ad nauseum
@@podtherod9304 That's fair. I may be speaking from privilege here. As a straight, white, ace virgin (A Cel I suppose?) I don't really have anything for them to go after, so for me they're just people who are very very wrong and often annoyingly immature.
I mean, there is some emotional investment involved. As someone who used to be insecure about my own dateability, they can awaken old self-criticisms, kind of like I'm talking to a younger me whom I really wish would grow up. But that's squarely a "me" problem.
Feeling frustrated because you're speaking to someone who actively wishes harm or oppression upon you seems very valid.
If it's any comfort, if other people are listening, they may soak in the truth of the argument, and even the bigots you speak to might soak it in eventually, once it's had some time to burrow into their skulls. But don't push yourself. Arguments online, or with strangers are rarely as earth-shaking as they often feel, and keeping an eye on the emotional toll it takes on you is important as well.
What is a fact? People try to argue all things of facts
The problem with not getting any is that the people who do get some don't know what it's like, and the people that don't won't have any advice worth listening to.
Sounds like we should advocate for more people that get some to take under their wings the people that don't and share some advise
@@yasielromero8236 except you don't learn anything from success. i don't know what my ex saw in me, all i know is that nobody else has seen that and said so.
I dont understand why sex is so important
@@silentj624generally, men feel entitled to sex. It’s part of the setup of the patriarchy, boys are raised to believe they are entitled to women’s attention, and if they do the correct inputs they are rewarded with sex. Boys are not taught how to pursue relationships in a healthy way, how to think about relationships in a healthy way, or how to have sex or want sex in a healthy way.
@@silentj624 there's way more to it than sex , but you might be on the asexual spectrum if that's how you feel.
I think there is something to explore when it comes to rejection from women, men's relationship with vulnerability (and its response emotion anger), and rejection sensitivity. Related to this, near the end of my career in psychology, I was working with young boys with gaming rage and (anecdotally mind you) a lot of them reported it was due to feeling vulnerable from dying in competitive PvP game due to performance or feeling a lack of control.
There may be a connection to delve into in which men face two of the areas they are supposed to and romanticize performing well in (combat and having sexual relationships), experiencing vulnerability from difficulty performing in those fields, and not having been socially taught how to cope with these it outside of angry outbursts.
THIS! 90% of my friends are dudes and this comes across so clearly when they open up, talk and admit to things (not about gaming necessarily) but outside of that you wouldn't know at
I'm curious. Would you perhaps say that this romanticization of performance can be tied to power fantasies? Such as establishing a relation to certain franchises/characters as a sort of crutch to embody this fantasy/expectations of performance and power?
I'm really just seeing if the rage from certain people when their beloved franchise gets "woke" or "infiltrated" by "posers" is sort of a defense mechanism tied to not being able to cope with ones own reality of expectations of performing.
@@TheAnimaAnimal for particular series I cannot say, however power fantasies can be (though not necessarily) a tool used by the brain to avoid feeling emotional pain or reestablish a sense of control or safety
@@delongjohnsilver7235 That's really interesting and sorta matches my own experiences/that I perceive from others. Thank you
great convo. kinda reminds me of somethin my brother-in-law said the other day...
"straight-up askin how much money your potential mate makes is common & expected within the first few mins." ...he's closing on 30, lives in a major city, financially supports his mom, her husband, and his younger sister while she finishes college (but "lives with mom" is the appearance), and he's got a noticeable skin condition that worsens with high stress. he's smart & educated, super funny, and in good physical shape... even as a great "catch", he hasn't been able to afford to date, and when he tries, it's a discouraging shit-show of societal failures workin against him.
as a mid-40's dude who's been off the market for nearly 16yrs, asking about income like that shocked me. that shit was a huge red flag just 20yrs ago!
it's too difficult to "make-it" these days, even when his idea of making-it is a simple 1br apt. young people in Japan stopped fuckin cause there's no affording privacy, and in the US we got rampant gross misogyny profiteering & shooters. too many social issues seem linked to wealth disparities.
That's why guys are buying wives overseas
It's a really under addressed factor. Is your brother really a "catch?" Typically the market determines your value, eg: if you don't attract good girls, what is your evidence you deserve them?
Frankly, I don't dress fancy or try to convey status to women, and I've had pretty great luck with cool girls that aren't just chasing me for money, so when I hear stories like your brother, I wonder what they're doing so differently.
@@LUM-kb2rl You make a really good point.
@LUM-kb2rl ...oh, he attracts decent women - Just no affordability for most individuals or even couples in his city. Most households are even multigenerational. This may be different from your city, & explain why financial pressures haven't resulted in a shift in dating culture/etiquette that you've noticed?
Basically, a question of "where", not "who".
@@Krazie-Ivan That's why guys are buying wives overseas
I felt my past self wincing when the interviewee said to hit the gym.
For all those out❤ there like me who are disabled, with something other than autism, and who find hitting the gym hard because gym staff don’t know how to deal with a blind person or a wheelchair user for instance, I feel for you. I eventually found a way that worked which involve paying a personal trainer. Lots of money. Blessed to have had lots of alone time with the computer as a young person and really be interested in it and learning how to audit other peoples code for them so I can get paid.
But yeah I hate it when people just say hit the gym. I really really hate it. I get it though. It helped me out.
Also, autism isn’t the only disability out there even though it’s the most trendy.
Also, I know you can’t mention every disability under the planet. I’m just here to speak up for people like me because this is how I felt.
Keep up the great work.
Fuck the gym if their heads are up their asses. Do push-ups if you can. My body is pretty physically able so that’s the advice that worked for me.
Sorry mate, totally did not mean to make anybody feel excluded.
Thanks so much. Yeah, I said it for the people out there who feel like me. I don’t expect everybody to be perfect when giving advice or give it in the way that I would best receive it. Still I really appreciate that. You read my note and responded to it.
@@murphymackenclass guy right here. It’s pretty cool that you went through comments and responded to someone who felt left out. Respect to you
I think autism gets mentioned so much because autistic men are genuinely overrepresented in the manosphere.
Don’t agree with this comment.
Why be so literal? And nitpicky?
Do body weight exercises, improvise, find modified exercises and do them on your floor.
Work it out. Countless people exercise without a gym.
Signifier likes this guy's vibe so much lol it's great. When he says the thing about usually struggling to get 5 minutes in an interview but he's gonna have to release this whole thing, perfect.
As someone directly inline with the looks and status of Murphy, this conversation was refreshing as it told me men like this do exist, it’s hard to believe that sometimes
Just finished watching your video then I see this posted 26 seconds ago. Lets goooo
Maybe if getting a woman wasn't a priority, all the detractor factors can be recontextualized
This.
what a dumb advice
I mean if you've never been wanted romantically or sexually then you do feel like getting a woman is important.
I was watching Kurtis Conner's video about Looksmaxxing, and as an autistic woman, BOY did it make me understand why autistic men would be attracted to this kind of content.
Autistic people get insulted in really weird specific ways: your voice is weird, you walk weird, you act weird.... And then here's this video of this guy who's telling you exactly the angle your shoulders should have when you're walking and the exact pacing you're "supposed" to have to be attractive. Specific instructions like this feel like a GOLDMINE for autistic people.
In a weird way, it's similar to BDSM: Autistic people are over represented in the BDSM community because BDSM culture comes with very specific instructions about consent, negotiation, rituals, etc.
In recent years there's been a lot of debates about whether autism is a mental disability or simple a human variation - exactly how homosexuality used to be a mental illness but is now understood as a regular thing that humans do - and I hope this shift will positively affect the loneliness experienced by so many of them/us.
What are your thoughts about hoemath videos?
Wow, I never thought of this. Great analysis.
This was an outstanding conversation! Thank you gentlemen for a thoughtful and intellectual conversation about the manosphere.
As a 26 year old autistic adhd male virgin who's never been in a love or a relationship I was struggling with teetering on inceldom for a couple of years when I was around 17 to 19 and what saved me was finding real friends and feminist theory. As my literature professors gave me a proper explanation of intersectionality and its importance for men's mental health for what like the first time in my life I finally realised that the internalised "ickiness" I always associated with it was misguided and unfounded. Afterwards I started reading feminist literature, Butler and Hooks to be precise and I started consuming a lot more overtly feminist content and while it made me aware of many of my blind spots and made me appreciate women in a new light it also made me even more terrified of the prospect of romantically or sexually engaging with women. Social interactions, as much as I've been groomed to master them from a young age, are hard enough as it is. The thought of having some sort of hormonal chemical reaction stunting my analytical thought and judgement for even just a brief moment and making me let my mask of "normalcy" slip adds so much anxiety to equation that I've inadvertently removed myself from it. The other thing that might give me even more anxiety is the fear of accidentally hurting someone without even realising it because even though I've trained myself to actively be aware of social cues in lots of instances I still miss many. That combined with low self esteem and a few other things have lead me becoming what I can only describe as *anxiety induced aromantic/asexual*. Which doesn't mean that I don't still crave companionship or intimacy which truly sucks because it makes me feel like I have somehow gone full circle and arrived at a sort of "woke black pill" due to me not really seeing myself getting over myself and these struggles anytime soon because of very little success in therapy thus far and basically non-existent specifically autism targeted therapy in my country.
Well shit, I thought that this, at least, was a unique experience for me. I feel so guilty about my own male gaze that it's just easier to not even think about ever bothering a woman with the prospect of interacting with me.
funny, intersectionality is what pushed me more towards inceldom, not because it was wrong, or cringe or whatever, but because it became a buzzword, not actual praxis.
bell hooks wrote her books on men within feminism out of *anger* at fellow feminists, and I can clearly see that things have not improved since those books.
And as someone who desperately needs/wants the spaces bell hooks wants... god it makes me downright irrate.
So I have a really complex relationship with feminism. I want to support it but also can't because I know I am not welcome there.
I vehemently hate the manosphere and the like, never have identified with them, but like... I have to agree with the truthful things they say and call out the untruthful things feminists say and vice versa. I just focus more effort on feminism because they atleast pretend to care.
I will say that while yes you can overstep your boundaries at time. U still have a lot of people looking for love. So many women that want your attention. Being respectful and asking if they want a relationship isn't a violation of another individual.
@@jeffreychandler8418so you’re frustrated at what exactly? that feminists are not effectively making some sort of progress or they/the movement are not living up to your expectations? that feminists you’ve met don’t live up to ideals? What does intersectionality specifically have to with your frustration?
@@franjkav I'm specifically angry that feminists claim to care about the issues, then actively make the issues worse.
Intersectionality is related because of that first part, feminists use it to claim that they care, when they don't.
For the autism thing, im hesitant to reccommend some therapy because of the pitfalls... but... i also wonder how many of these men are looking for autistic partners. Like, youll probably do better with people who Get It, and who you can share those experiences.
I wonder how many of these men are expecting women to accept things they would actively reject in a partner
I think it’s bc of many different factors why men struggle regardless of being autistic; they usually secure better jobs that they hyperfixate on of course (not all of course) but socially they struggle bc in general (im autistic as well) the way people socialize prevents people from fully being honest what they want and it’s guessing games that the dating game likes to play sets us autistic folks to failure
Good to hear this kind discussion going on. Not real relevant to my life but this kids need some positive but hard truths. Sometimes you need to get out of your head and look objectively at how you present to other human’s . Life is trial and error and finding a lane that is true to yourself but not a toxic nightmare.
I feel like a huge component I haven't seen discussed is the actual mechanics of dating in a healthy manner in relation to this topic. Helping people improve all of their relationships so they feel less alone is probably the best thing we can do to help with this core issue of loneliness. How do you create meaningful relationships? Well, you have to talk about vulnerability, boundaries, conflict resolution, listening to others, etc. Things our culture doesn't teach us like emotional intelligence and how to respect one another. I feel like the work that relationship experts only get to say to people Already in couples needs to be heard by those struggling with dating. Especially when it comes to expectations and how expectations create resentment. So many of these Incel/manosphere types are starting with horrible expectations that are never going to be met by any good healthy relationship so they are going to fail in one way or another. Either by never getting into a relationship or creating an extremely toxic one.
my brother: "Helping people improve all of their relationships so they feel less alone is probably the best thing we can do to help with this core issue of loneliness. How do you create meaningful relationships?"
that is ON THE NOSE. its a question, not a 'tip' but it absoluty is a big part of the problem.
@@espalier exactly, identifying the question is the first step.
This was so much fun, I really appreciate that I got to sit in on that conversation.
Thank you!
Personal hygiene and taking care of yourself is massive. Maintaining a a clean living space is also huge.
When I was single and struggling to date, lots of folks said to go to hobby groups I enjoy- like board games etc. I could not find a decent group where everyone at that table had showered in the last 24h- and people weren't condescending and playing sweaty. I can not imagine a woman going to these groups and the increased sexism with mansplaining of rules or constanlty being hit on our of no where.
I also think this bounces into a common statment from these manosphere groups about nerdy women- why dont they date nerdy men? In my experience, its because lots of nerdy men don't clean and don't clean themselves 😂 it has nothing to do with you being a nerd haha
Now we are talking! Yes. People would except dirty totally messy places from me, because I was totally blind, but they would be condescending to me at the same time. I actually feel better about myself and my place is clean. Because then I have some thing for somebody else. That’s a big one too. Reframing life from oh I’m going to get mine and I’m going to make my mark and this and that to oh I’m going to be able to provide some thing for somebody in need. I’m gonna have food in my fridge so that I can cook a meal For people if I want to invite them over or if somebody needs one.
@@djfeelings lots of the speakers in these circles, like Jordan Peterson, really treat women like trophies or awards for doing the bare basics of participating on society. It makes dating entirely transactional- I clean my room and shower, you have sex with me. Dating is very selfish in that way and dehumanizing to women.
@@peckc16It also gives an unrealistic expectation that is bound to come up against an unpleasant reality that self-improvement (when done properly) is slow and gradual, and won't guarantee immediate or frequent dating success. These people can become discouraged by early failures and give up their journey of bettering themselves.
I'm not a nerdy but from what I hear nerdy women say nerdy men don't want them. The amount of women who go to cosplay conventions and then are treated poorly by the men there is wild.
@@silentj624yeah, for sure. My sister is the one who got me into all my nerdy interests and she’s told me about the harassment she’s received in like dnd groups, at conventions, and so on. Nerdy straight women do want to date and be in relationships with guys who share their interests, but most of those nerdy guys are incredibly misogynistic and incredibly cruel.
you don't have to "look past the misogyny" there are plenty of us in need of rescuing who are broke, depressed and have no social group because of childhood social trauma and the alienation of capitalist society but aren't or were never rabidly misogynist
True. But it's important to always lead with empathy, failing that just not engaging or feeding the fire. We are all capable of falling down these paths, and it's important to remember it doesn't have to be permanent or that the individual will always be like this but painting everyone with that same brush will limit your ability to give a shit.
Discovered Macken Murphy through Sisyphus55’s podcast. Loved that you both dropped good videos recently and looking forward to listening to this.
This interview should be titled: A Tale of Two Kings :)
thanks for spreading rational thoughts in an increasingly chaotic world
Macken, I have been watching your videos for a while now. As a clinician, I love the researched based content that you are so kindly disseminating with the public. People need so much education and you are making content that is doing that in a palatable way. I watched a TH-cam video with You and RedPill last night. I loved every minute of it. I loved how you didn’t back down and continued to assert yourself and kept the convo focused on the data and science. I saw RedPill interview Orion Taradon, PsyD who is spewing the same harmful theories of RedPill. Every time I watch Orion, my blood pressure spikes as I feel his content is misogynistic and also harmful to our already toxic culture. I just wanted to thank you for what you are doing. Much appreciation. 🙏🏼
Me just here minding men’s business 👩🏽💻🍿🥤
We all minded "feminism". Whether we wanted to or not. Thanks for tuning in.
@@jedahn you don’t know shit about feminism. You probably cannot even cite one single published feminist author.
Thank you so much for sharing the long form. (And I can tell this isn't even all of it, so I guess thanks for the editing labor, too.) Super interesting conversation, y'all.
Thanks for the kind words!
@@murphymacken gladly! Likewise! 😊
wait...this isn't Ludwig...my brain has lied to me.
Ludwig + Ewan Mitchell (Aemond Targaryen from HotD)
looks like ludwig crossed with magnus mitbo
Nah it's his dad. KOOPA!
Thank you both for the information and discussion. I have no critiques on most of your videos because I am unwilling to go to work and study simultaneously 😂. Thank you for the educational exposure. I enjoy your content because it removes the scales of ignorance piecemeal.
1:02:13 It's so funny how we came full circle on muscular men over the course of like 10 years.
Also, the upsetting thing isn't that attractiveness is highly prioritized. That's obvious. It's being lied to and told that it isn't. A lot of the anger of incels isn't from having the issues. It's from them being disregarded, invalidated, and mocked.
It’s actually heartening to know you have that much control.
True
I'm actually pretty confused about his point about muscularity being an "enormous difference in bodily attractiveness", speaking as a woman attracted to men, and knowing the things women say about men's attractiveness when men aren't in the room. Push come to shove, facial attractiveness and hair is the bigger factor, along with being trim, and trimness doesn't necessitate muscularity. If you're thin or have a bit of weight on you, you aren't going to enter a new realm of attractiveness by hitting the gym. Maybe Macken was thinking of overweight men when he made that point, but I'd argue then that it's the loss of weight that matters. Anyway, what he says about hairstyle and hygiene is spot on though.
@@reckonerwheel5336 Ty for your response :). I think "bodily attractiveness" is the key term. I'd assume that most times you're seeing guys it's clothed lol. I think fitness does affect the face though so it still does play a factor. You can't control fat distribution, but if you have less overall you'll likely have a chiseled, more appealing face. Hair is definitely huge too. I definitely balance thinking of whether a beard would fit me vs the benefit it gives in terms of facial contouring for men.
It is interesting to talk about the settings in which info is disclosed though. In ingroup conversations, male and female, there's an assumption of sincerity, but there can also be expectations at play that affect what you would admit to. In studies, you'd hope that anonymity and rigor would lead to more honest results. Sometimes we don't know ourselves.
I don't know how much weight to put into this, but at least a lot of the women I've ran into were fans of muscularity. You can also see it in what people's OCs and fanarts tend to look like. When you have the freedom of fantasy, what do you choose to create?
@@tylersamuels4438 Oh yes, for some folks, their face changes when their weight/muscle levels change, and that can impact attractiveness overall, I agree.
I think most women find muscularity attractive, it just doesn't rank as high as what may be assumed societally, nor does a muscular body of say, Man #1 win out over Man #2 who's thin with a good-looking face. I think if you were to ask how to make Man #2 even more ideal, then muscle tone would probably be added. I think that'd be why you see muscularity in OC and fanart -- when given the option, that quality would be there. It's fascinating to look at those works -- they show common desires as well as more unique desires, like tattoos, hairstyles, clothing, etc.
For myself -- I don't have any specific facial features I like, but for body -- a small waist, large knuckled hands, and some definition in the chest is the fantasy. Height -- between 4'10" and 5'11 (as a short gal, I find too much height is awkward!). The public figure I know of who hits most of these physical qualities is Suga from BTS, and his face is attractive to me as well.
@@reckonerwheel5336 sure aghahah you can be honest you know ?
There's always two things that come to mind when I see men discussing how undesirable they are to women:
1) Which women? It feels, so often, that they're talking about a very specific kind of woman, and it would be beneficial to mention at some point "Have you considered that your idea of a woman you want to date is too narrow?" Like, I know PLENTY of women who love a short king. But they're often not conventionally attractive or they're bisexual (see point 2). Like yeah, if you're solely pitching yourself in a specific market in which what you're offering isn't in demand, you'll have more issues.
2) I know so many bisexual women (myself include) who prefer a short guy, and also chubby guys. But what often happens is that these guys get so in their heads about how "undesirable" they are so they not only have a big chip on their shoulder with relation to women in general, but then if they DO date bisexual women, the biphobia hits HARD because of the fear and jealousy that goes with that. So you end up with a lot of short-king/chubby-guy-loving bisexual women who end up dating only women (or just opting to be single) because the short/chubby guy market is so actively hostile.
Like, as a bi woman who's been single for over a decade, it's so frustrating to see these kinds of guys that I think are so attractive just railing about how women won't date them because of how they look.
CHADsexual,
Women don't date down that's why they become BI,i guess we should adopt the same strategy,too bad femboys are scarce and already taken
are you initiating?
And they'll go on about hypergamy while complaining women who are way out of their league won't date them. They're in their own way.
nah chubby men just arent desired and thats ok
“Incels aren’t actually as white supremacist as the public assumes”
“Actually everything is more white supremacist than the public assumes”
Typical sig L take
😂😂
Just to add on to the point made about overlap in the autistic community--unfortunately, there are no viable therapies specifically for autism spectrum disorder. As of right now, the most widely prescribed therapy (ABA) has a resulting rate of C-PTSD in over half of all autistic patients. Really scary stuff. Most allistic (non-autistic) people aren't aware of this. I wasn't either until I was recently looking for a diagnosis and professional help for myself. I found that for level one autistics like me, the best thing we can do, usually, is to seek community with fellow autistic people, and to develop a strong individual relationship with a therapist who specializes in something other than autism. Also, in my opinion, DBT is infinitely better than CBT. My therapist is a clinical psychologist, and his insight has been immensely helpful for me, but we have had to learn things together, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Sadly, too many therapists who say they specialize in ASD are not interested in hearing about our actual lived experience, and would rather continue to cause harm then change their views.
Great video by the way guys.
Also level 1 on the spectrum, I 100% agree that DBT is waaaay better than CBT
I did CBT and i was refused to be able to unpack my very complicated past and made to feel I was the central problem in everything. If i wasn't percieved as successful in therapy i got diagnosed with BPD even though I dont actually fit the DSM. I ended up developing a specific mask for therapy. No therapist ever taught me about healthy relationships, even thought i was surrounded by dysfunctional relationships from birth. I realised recently they arent incentivised to teach on this because either they dont know or it would force them to maintain a healthy power balance with clients, which they dont want to. I feel like i had a huge misunderstanding of what psychology was about, I wanted it to liberate me but its about normalising people. If you are neurodivergent you will never be normal so they become frustrated because they cannot achieve their aim and turn against you. Im suspicious even of DBT because i dont want to go near behaviorism again.
@@mistressofstones Yess, I definitely relate to so much of what you said and understand why you would be apprehensive. I'm sorry you've also had that experience. You're right about behavioral therapy in general having a lot of problems, it's all based on similar foundations of "normalizing". The difference between DBT and why I think it's a bit better is the dialectics part of it. For me, and specifically the way my therapist and I talk about it, is it allows you to work on feeling more comfortable with the paradoxes of life. Two conflicting ideas can be true at once kind of thing. But the best thing I've done for my mental health is to work on developing healthy relationship, like you also mentioned. And just trying to be kinder and more gentle with myself in general. It's rough out here :/ best of luck to you
Love your work and I wish you well
Great convo FD. But sadly you didn't ask him to put on shades and have him say
"damn, those alien bastards are gunna pay for shootin up my ride"
One thing not considered here is the sexual preferences of the men themselves.
At some point, i realised that i was attracted exclusively to men who are sexually submissive. When i started looking for submissive men on the dating market though, i found them to be on average far worse personality-wise than the guys i dated before. I don't feel like misogynistic is even exactly the right word for the problem. It wasn't that they did or said anything misogynistic, it was the air of hyper-awareness of interpersonal power dynamics and and attempts to socially dominate me or to manipulate me into seeing them as hyper-masculine.
I got the impression that due to their sexual preferences towards sexually dominant women (who are very rare), they had no success and fell into manosphere spaces. And those spaces condition men to act in certain ways that are distinctly unattractive to exactly the type of women they are attracted to. They might think it's working, if it attracts some women. Relying on scientific stats will always have this drawback of a lack of specificity. There will always be people who will actually reduce their chances by optimizing for general population.
I don't wanna pretend that it has any scientific value, but my personal preference is for women that are socially dominant and sexually submissive, and I have found that most women I pursued because of the former criterion also happened to fit the second one. I know that the situations are not as comparable because traditional gender roles push men to be sexually dominant and women submissive, but maybe the correlation I observerd can also be found amongst men?
@@matthieurouyer1826this is a well-known trend, people who are dominant in normal life, regardless of gender, often want a release from that in their sex life, while people who are less powerful in life may want to experience power through sex.
This is a lot of yapping, but at least both of you said it's personal experience.
@@matthieurouyer1826 people who are genuinely leadership-type, i have no problem with. I think it's quite different for men and women because men feel a lot of pressure to act socially dominant when they don't actually feel like it. A lot of the men in my life feel either pressure to conform or problems for not conforming to traditional ideas of masculinity.
But as a woman, my social assertiveness levels flow naturally depending on the context and i don't really feel pressure about it either way.
It seems to me that in feminist countries where social assertiveness in women isn't looked down upon, you won't so easily see this trauma in women as you see in men. And what i'm talking about is not assertiveness or confidence, it's more of a manipulative type of dominance. As if the person is so insecure that they see everything as a competition and every conversation as something to "win". I've
@@matthieurouyer1826you just said what I’ve been trying to explain to myself so perfectly. I was never able to put this dynamic and my preferences into words like this before
Thank you so much for a reasonable and empathetic look at this complex issue!!
There is a lot of temptation when viewing this problem from the outside to judge and laugh at incels so we can distance ourselves from an uncomfortable reality: dating is not fair. People owe you respect, people owe you general kindness, but they don't owe you love.
And that is a fundamental unfairness that can be one of the hardest truths to swallow for all of humanity. Even if people do care for you, it's easy to think it's always conditional- you must be polite, you must be happy, you must be helpful, or who would love you then?
But if I could give one message to incels it's that you are NOT special-- in the best way possible. We all question if we are lovable and we all mold ourselves to fit in better with others. The trick is finding your peace with who you want to be. People will be sympathetic if you find it in yourself to be true to yourself as you can be while still caring about the people around you. You don't need the whole world, you just need a few people who get it and fuck with you. Focus on what you can change for the better and make your peace with what you can't.
Truly that's my advice for every lost soul. It's not perfect and no one is saying this shit isn't hard. But it's up to you. If what you want is change, then fight for it. And those that take the "black pill" aren't really giving up hope, or they wouldn't still be looking everywhere for people who disagree with them. They don't WANT it to be true. And if they can't see that for themselves, then they are doomed to be right.
Also- this is an individualistic take because it was meant for A person to read. That doesn't mean that all of this stuff can't and shouldn't be pushed back on a societal scale. Beauty standards suck and so does ableism and racism and all the rest that makes things even harder for people. But if that's the problem at hand then we all need to make changes in a larger way and not let that turn us to solitary hate.
Chads are not special either, what a stupid take 🤦🏻♂️
I used to be a "nice guy" when i was a teenager, and really only started getting along with girls when i abandoned that mindset. Feeling owed connection for being "nice" is an unattractive form of entitlement. But it was clear that the self pity i was feeling when i was younger, prevented me from being an interesting fun person to be around.
All of my serious relationships have been with people who knew that I was trans though, so i think a lot of my struggles came from this deep sense that there was something wrong with me. Pretending to be a guy was probably the biggest deepest wrongest thing i was doing at the time. Once i really started being myself things started improving. I even dated more in my pre-HRT baby trans phase, where I didn't have my look put together and I was basically a twink who wore skirts and makeup. Which I now look back on as a bit cringe because i was bad at it, but that authenticity was more attractive than the guy i used to pretended to be.
This was a great video and I think will be super helpful for those trying to get loved ones friends and people who are just generally in the manosphere. Top tier work lads :)
Love it, great conversation. These topics are of interest to me because I was the type of guy that would easily fall into the manosphere rabbit hole. I was lucky enough to get into reading philosophy and sociology (in conjunction with other factors) and avoid that.
Thank you for the content F.D.
Commenting for the algorithm boost.
Yeah, I too prefer the socially dominant and sexually submissive women. I need an alpha. Sorry🌝
"I'm just a dorky scientist" = "I'm just Ken"
😆
Wow, I left a warning on one of his videos a while back that clipped his debate with a redpiller and told him that he risks getting lumped in with them. I am glad he took it to heart.
Hope his granfather get well. My love 4 u all guys!
I JUST finished watching your video and in it you said you had the talk with Murphy on your podcast, I checked it and was like, "Where's the video? Did it get taken down? Damn, YT really not letting FD win."
But then it gets uploaded.
Guess we had the usual difficulties.
Learn to cook. Good food is a massive sensory experience. It takes time and effort, which shows that you care about and prioritize that person in your life. This doesn't just apply to romantic relationships either. There's a reason it's a trope in most cultures that "food is love" and when something bad happens to a family we drop off ready to eat meals. Providing food for your romantic partner, and feeding your family is an easy way to demonstrate to them how much you care for them. Of course, the better the food is.... the more they'll appreciate it.
Yes! I don`t want a man to take me to a fancy restaurant, I want him to cook for me! :)
What a great discussion. I hope this isn't the last we hear from him on your channels
:)
I think this is an excellent masterclass in having a nuanced conversation around a controversial topic.
listening to some smart guys talk about relevant stuff is a great time.
They're idiots for the most part. Red pill is King.
@@altrockguitarist650lmao you're so sad bro. No "red pill is king" guys are actually getting laid.
Notes:
QThe economics of inceldom (22:20)a
If there's too many men than women, men are playing musical chairs, since Most people date monogamously.
Men compete in money, looks and personality, etc
from my perspective as a queer dude the discussion about physical attractiveness is really baffling because in my experience many types of men are considered attractive, much more widely so than types of women
Using celebrities as an example, Sidney Sweeney, Zendaya and Meg the Stallion are all attractive to men. How are they at all similar
@@Penterror they are all young skinny or "slim thick" women who usually wear straight or wavy hair and have conventionally attractive faces lmao. these are your examples of different body types?? lol
@@el_m3allem So you're going to act like women like everything from Henry Cavill to Paul Blart? That's such a dishonest take
@@Penterror as a person who likes bears paul blart is 100% my type lmfao
@@el_m3allem I'm sure Lizzo is someone's type that doesn't make it common
Thank you so much for resisting the urge to put out hot takes on international conflicts. As someone who's been to both Israel and the West Bank and who has spent most of their life studying what's going on there, it's one of the most convoluted situations on earth and defies simple explanations. Recently I saw someone talking about how the discourse on it right now feels a lot like a football game where everyone just picks a side largely because that's who all their friends and neighbors are rooting for without really studying what's going on. Overall I wish Americans were more involved in what's going on outside of our country than we currently are, but I also don't want people to bull rush in to other people's issues as America has been wont to do time and time again.
Came here from Nebula to ask you to put this shit on Nebula, so i wouldn't have to come here.
Very interesting to see there's a correlation between economic disparity and the rise of inceldom, because I would have hypothesized it too. Not the only factor, and perhaps not even causality, but yeah.
I've realized redpill/manosphere men have valid concerns and fears that they've observed in dating, however due to a misogynistic, overly negative and transactional worldview they take their observations to hateful conclusions about women. They automatically blame women for all of their problems. Yes, women absolutely contribute to the problems, but more often the case its a myriad of socioeconomic, historical forces and human influences (including manosphere themselves) at play. But I guess it easier for them to just blame women then take the deep look at how we got here.
It's always easier to blame the "other". Not unique in the slightest to anyone, all demographics have done it at some point.
I do agree overall with what you say but women do have a good amount of blame in this situation. The reason, they have benefited from femenism, being able to work and climb the corporate ladder to get better salaries, being able to enter jobs that before women were excluded from from a legal point of view or a social one. But men haven't benefited from this at all, they still are expected to be the money makers, in terms of dating, men are the ones that have to make the first move, women still won't do it even of the guy is safe. Also the idea of a husband that takes care of the majority of the household chores at the expense of his ability to make money is looked down upon, men aren't allowed to step into more femenine roles but women can step into more masculine ones. The thing that keeps this from changing? It's women's dating preferences, if women loved a man who would cook and clean for them, even at the expense of his ability to make money, men would jump on the opportunity but again this doesn't happen.
I'm interested in the point you were making (23 min mark) about a ratio of more available men to women driving incel behavior. We see cities like Denver - very liberal by most available data, but famous for having a high ratio of single men to women - to the point where the city is nicknamed "Menver." Yet, if there is a high incel population here, I've never seen it.
Is this an outlier in the data, or are there isolated pockets (military bases, etc) where this problem is exacerbated? Would be curious to learn more.
I also live in Denver, however I happen to be black and mostly associate with communities of other black people and latinos and I can assure you the inceldom is rife here. I think its really more of a function of who you associate with. Congrats though lol it seems like you're surrounded by a good crowd of people.
I believe you could find some info on this topic if you look up late 19th/early 20th century immigration in the US
Een-cels are at home, you won't see them outside
@@abnormpsych17 in black couminites ?
this is such an amazing and interesting discussion. i'm so glad you posted this interview in its entirety.
i'll also add my own thoughts, as an asexual aromantic. which, btw, i was so happy to be acknowledged, honestly it means so much. we're often excluded from these discussions or essentially told we don't exist, because people say that dating/sex/romance is a universal and universally important drive.
and that brings me to what I actually meant to say. i think incel culture and goals (and this discussion as a result) focus on dating almost exclusively. but a lot of the suggestions brought up and the struggles discussed help so much with self-esteem and general health, both mental and physical, which is so so important. not to say that dating isn't important, i know for a lot of people it is, but i wonder if some incels who follow this advice end up realizing they're not as obsessed with getting into a relationship as before, just because they feel better about themselves on their own.
I would have a gf if i wasn't so high inhib,and the worst part is that this is something you can't change,but rather just pretend to not be
mmhhh.
Listened through this.
I probably count as an incel
And honestly, when I'm in crisis I become a poster **TM**.
My general take is this.
I don't understand whats wrong with me. I talk with others and they say I'm nice, kind, interesting, etc. I talk with my therapist (on meds for years btw) and they say I have a lot of really positive relationship skills. I go out and do my thing, meet people in the process, and things don't really go anywhere.
I can say I have a lot of friends, but 0 of them are inner circle because frankly, they don't care. I've tried opening them up to the inner circle, in all the permutations you can think of, and it hasn't worked.
I just don't know what's wrong with me.
And like at this point I feel I do shit more just to feel deserving of the isolation.
I was SO fucking active, and had one writer (yes, someone wrote about me) write "they find an intense balance between work, community service, and friendships."
Now, I use poorness as an excuse to not do laundry for weeks at a time, just washing clothes as needed in the sink. I stay at home whenever possible. The life I lived before was too much for me, and it never succeeded in attracting a close friend let alone a partner despite me actively working on all of those aspects in allegedly healthy ways.
Now I'm too tired to go shopping, despite medication and caffeine. I've developed really bad executive dysfunction.
and the worst part is, through my active phase, I was also surviving an actively abusive relationship, which is what eventually broke me.
But because I'm a traumatized man, by a woman, I cannot find a way to reintegrate into society.
My fears, my triggers, etc, really really really need community to be fixed yet the community is incapable of doing what I ask, which only further shoves me into my rut.
I don't know what options I even have. I've tried everything. I really have. I just haven't been lucky. And I'm tired of the lack of agency.
Thats probably the most frustrating them. I'm super high functioning, even with executive dysfunction. If there is something that I can choose to do well, or get good at, I will succeed. It won't be linear and I can cope with those setbacks. I feel like my growth mindset is genuinely impressive for 99% of things. But when it comes to social stuff, I've tried and tried and tried and tried for like 2 decades at this point and it's gotten nowhere. It's not something you have agency in. It's lucky. Some people just aren't lucky.
:O I never expected the word 'NEET' to be used in this conversation. Won't on ANY of my bingo cards.
Well NEET is pretty relevant considering where the manosphere phenomenon spawn from (4chan and other cesspools)
@@nowhereman6019 absolutely. Still didn’t expect it lol.
Thanks for bringing him to my attention, FD! I'll have to look for him. But I'm not on TikTok. I really enjoyed listening to your conversation together. I'm a parent of two Gen Z young adults. I'm hoping that I've raised my son to be a feminist and a good human being. I just hope that he finds someone who is a good match, someone to have a healthy relationship with.
this was a great conversation
For all your critiques about the red pill, your best advice to men was "be yourself" and "find hobbies." In order to have different outcomes you have to change and I think there is a large part of the red pill that gives it to men straight that the only way to become more successful is to become "better," to improve.
I agree that some incels will have a hard time going out and dating because of their mental health and other disbilities. However, at the same time... those same incels have entitled unrealistic standards when it comes to women. They prefer to date women who would judge them based on their disabilities and looks. However, they never consider dating women on their own dating range. I.E. average Janes and women with disablities similar to them. I'm not saying that's all they deserve. I'm just saying they never consider it nor have they give those women the time or the day. As a matter of fact... they judge the same women who have similar issues like them.
We all have the same expectations
This is demonstrably false. The overwhelming majority of incels want their female equivalent in terms of looks. Considering the fact that the majority of men are single, while the majority of women are not, this suggests that women are the ones dating out of their league more often than men.
Everyone wants someone attractive which is actually a lot more objective than you think.
@@mateaukalua4426 yes but we cant all get that. Thats why its better for you to realize its your desires that are the problem.
Autistic women:making tiktoks about how autistic they are and getting money from simps
Autistic man:rotting in their room,contemplating suicid
Great interview!
1:18:57 I appreciate FD acknowledging how he has to play around his audience. It can be kindve tiresome hearing him have to take the long way to a point, knowing it's just because he needs to avoid upsetting a fraction of his market. It's upsetting to see them not realizing how much theyre being pandered to/coddled.
But I do understand that he's got to do what he's got to do and appreciate his dedication to honesty. And it's not a unique issue to him or leftist creators ofc. Right leaning creators will have to do the same runaround to avoid upsetting their viewer base when they say something true that doesn't toe the party line.
1:25:05 I might have to watch the podcasts more.
apologies for sounding simplistic but this was a good and necessary video. I watched it with my 15 year old kid so they have an idea of what it's like out there.
The point is made that incels would be more attractive if they lost the bitterness and misogyny, but do they really think that was the starting point? That it wasn't the result of failures and negative feedback?
it's reverse causation fallacy. He is reversing the cause and the effect. In reality the bitterness and "misogyny" is an effect caused by repeated failures and being lied to by society. Fiq tries to argue that the cause is their bitterness and the effect is the repeated failures, when it is the other way around. It is your classic informal logic fallacy. There probably are some fringe cases like that but to argue the extreme exceptions prove the rule is idiotic. He would ask an incel if they "go outside" then says shit like that. you can't even make this shit up. Very few men start out just hating women lol. It is so insane this is such a popular talking point. Fiq really cannot think critically even though it is basically his job.
@@silversteinmmamuch easier to ignore someone's issues if they're your perfect villain.
@@silversteinmma YESSSS This!!!!! If you talk to a good handful of them, you'll notice a pattern. They want to enter the dating market, find love and romantic adventures like anyone. Then when they try, they fail. So they attempt any and all solutions but it doesn't stick for some reason. Maybe they are autistic or they come from a bad background that didn't build the social foundation for them. It can be many factors but they can't put their fingers on it. Some do know what's wrong but the execution of doing well is somehow escapable to them. It's one thing to know in theory and another to execute in actions. After many failure, they give up and it really kills their desires. Which settles and becomes bitterness. It is not the norm that these men just hate women first. It's after repeated failures and discrimination from failing. Because if you fail in a embarrassing social way or repeatedly enough, you can become ostracized from the social group. Because even the social group has a tolerance limit before they move away. Fiq even admits he fails at understanding this and gives criticism with very few actual solutions. Around 58:31 mark. So I find it hard to even finish his videos cause he'll hit some points then fail at articulating and understanding it. He even admits that he "Cops out" of certain things talked about at around 1:09:29 or at 1:14:49, where he talks about the strong market move is to dunk on incels. I'd rather listen to someone who can see both sides and try to find a solution. We have enough extremes on all sides. Not enough balanced outlooks.
@@Pistolita221 this is the problem with the word "incel" in itself it otherizes and puts them in this "villain" state. They are the bad guys.
@@fayelis I agree with your first sentence, and your second doesn't make sense in relation to the first. "They are the bad guys", the incels? I would say they're behavior is often bad, but only billionaires have the agency necessary for them to be evil. Evil requires A LOT of agency imo.
Nice of you to have Serious Ludwig on.
This was a great conversation 👏 thank you guys great meeting
What I would love to see discussed more is the difference between the sexual market versus the marriage market. It would be interesting to know how importance of physical attraction, intelligence and personality rank dependent on the different markets. Height might matter less when looking for a husband rather than a casual partner.
Watch TAILS
@@Alas-yc1sg ?
I think it’s pretty disingenuous to speak 54:53 minutes on incels, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, and tik Tok instead of real manosphere issues, like I get talking about the “figureheads” but just as social media makes us want to think Umar Johnson speaks for all black people don’t use these PUA, and Heretics to define the whole manosphere or people who struggled or are currently struggling with woman.
No point in trying to use nuance in this community, they're a hive mind that wants to be told who to hate.
The main problem is that neither of these people have ever encountered someone who cant form romantic relationships in real life. They’re just going off of things they see on the internet because they can’t really understand someone who is involuntarily celibate as a human being rather than an archetype.
Amazing interview!
Such great work FD 🔥
I've been sitting with this all day. I'm not sure the closing advice really helps with Autistic people in particular. The barriers to meeting the thresholds you discuss can be difficult to impossible.
I think it actually is likely more about building your personal local community before you start thinking about romantic relationships. Having community to support you in betterment goals will get you a lot closer to a relationship. I think so many incels don't even have that which is why they go to the incel community.
55:48 yes that's the reality right there. A good percentage are already "normal" or even beyond normal levels of attractiveness, the problem is being neurodivergent and the answer to that is...learn how to act neurotypical? It's hard not to feel a sense of doom
Very true. But I think we can add one more reason which is that some of those "normal" looking incels sometimes have unrealistic standards. In a way they are actually fake incels.
@@leoskyi I agree, that's got to be holding some back. I would classify those who will accept nothing but so-called "top-tier" women to be fake incels as well.
This is just fantastic
Correcting fame with success was absolutely amazing
I also think that people who are generally are oppressed are more qualified to speak on the oppressor because they have to survive them. Many white people and men get angry when the opposing speak about them and think that their opinion doesn’t come from a place of ignorance. But black people, women, or whatever intersection it is always have something that’s more accurate to reality to say because historically and individually they had to survive *them* So it makes more sense to me why a white guy would need to do more research and get a second opinion before speaking on certain topics of blackness.
I wouldn't say they are more qualified. I would say they probably have a certain perspective that might be overlooked. There are plenty of black people that don't have a clue about racism but are effected by it. Just like anything else on the planet. People are effected by capitalism but many know nothing about it
But white people oppress other white people and black people oppress other black people. It is shockingly simple minded to automatically think that white male = oppressor .. I don’t even know how to talk to someone that thinks like that
When it comes to race all groups should feel free to talk openly and should be open for criticism . You can’t hide yourself away from criticism just because of your whiteness or blackness
And no, I disagree that someone with darker skin tone will automatically have a more realistic take on something due to their past. That doesn’t make sense. No, you have to look at their level of education and experience and reputation. Then go from there.
@@brianmeen2158 Right. So that would mean. A rich white man would get a second opinion from a working class or below white man before making a public comment, video, or whatever. That’s classism. I’m sure you’ve heard comments from out of touch CEO’s and rich capitalists. So my point still stands. Nobody said to begin with white men aren’t oppressed. I’ve had to learn to be careful when commenting on black women or LGBT issues. Coming from a place of maleness and heteronormativity. That’s how intersectionality works.
You sound out of touch right now honestly and put your ego aside and hear me out honestly for your own growth. Your comment is the equivalent of that Rich CEO trying to lecture working class people that they can get wealthy too and all they have to do is “work hard” and that everything is “fair”, that “they got it from scratch” knowing in the back of their head that they either received loans from their parents, they live in a wealthy community full of opportunities, top of the country schools, etc. On paper it seems honestly fair but you look at the details those Wealthy white people have advantages other white don’t have, matter a fact their suffering is the reason why they’re rich.
Same here. On paper quoting from you “level of education and experience and reputation” should be qualified but when historically and statistically urban environments were intentionally conditioned to not build good experiences, reputation, and education, and those urban environment black people were placed there by manipulation or terrorism. While white *sub* urban environments actually had the adequate resources for an actual fair shot then those suburbanites then terrorize any one who doesn’t look like them so they can’t share their opportunities. You can’t say it’s the same thing.
You might deny or bend it. I’m not trying to 1up you or bring you down, white guilt you, or whatever. But these are proven historical facts and maybe there is dread you feel for personalizing the oppression white men have engaged in. Just understand black people or non-white person are not responsible for you taking it personal. We are not attacking you. It’s not our fault y’all take it on a personal level. The sensation of dread black people face, other minorities face, women, lgbtq+, etc. Generally is a lot worse than the guilt and dread white men feel (Again we’ve never asked for or are responsible for y’all taking it personal) But the disconnect is so great that it may feel like the end of the world to white men. That you have to gaslight us that it is fair and we should judged by “experience or education” or whatever utopia bs. To make it seem like y’all really got it out the mud. But in fact you sound just like that Rich white CEO crying into his dollars when his white employees are complaining about wages, working hours, and regulations. Coping to the understanding that he is in fact oppressing them, taking advantage of them, and he feels guilty for it ( _They didn’t ask for his guilt they asked for fair wages and reform_)
So see a running theme here? I didn’t ask for your guilt so you can type a paragraph coping with it. I’m asking for awareness and you not to gaslight me things are fair and peaches and cream.
P.S
I’m not angry or triggered, or whatever other term you can label me so you can cope with what I’ve just said. I am just passionate. I am also compassionate for at least giving you a well thought out analogy and typing it out for you. Others will just leave you in the dark. But it does take a lot of humility to accept what I’ve just said.
@@brianmeen2158 Right. So that would mean. A rich white man would get a second opinion from a working class or below white man before making a public comment, video, or whatever. That’s classism. I’m sure you’ve heard comments from out of touch CEO’s and rich capitalists. So my point still stands. Nobody said to begin with white men aren’t oppressed. I’ve had to learn to be careful when commenting on black women or LGBT issues. Coming from a place of maleness and heteronormativity. That’s how intersectionality works.
Understand that historically and statistically Afro-Americans have been terrorized and placed in _Urban_ environments which were intentionally conditioned and neglected to preform worse while suburban (White) environments have not only been taken care of but terrorized and gatekept us from escaping those environments. Proven fact in history that affects of until now.
Now imagine the same guys you are talking about who oppress euro people too. A wealthy euro CEO who always preaches some self righteous mumbo jumbo about working hard and how he built his company from scratch in his garage. When in fact if you do research he got some sort of special privileges like loans from his parents, a bougie/wealthy childhood, being able to afford top of the line schools. On paper it “go to school/ follow the American dream” seems honestly fair but you look at the details those Wealthy euro people have advantages other euro don’t have, matter a fact their suffering is the reason why they’re rich. Now imagine then White CEO hears complaints from his employees about wages, work hours, and reform. He thens calls them lazy and say they don’t work hard because he has to gaslight himself and others because if not he would feel guilty. He has to tell himself that story or he would feel like a bad person taking advantage of his employees. He’s effectively coping with the reality he never got it out the mud. Not only he’s pampered but he’s pampered from the suffering of others.
Now look at this. You might deny or bend the reality that Afro people historically and currently face but denial, that’s you coping. Just like that CEO. I’m not trying to 1up you or bring you down, white guilt you, or whatever. But these are proven historical facts and maybe there is dread you feel for personalizing the oppression white men have engaged in. Just understand afro people or non-euro person are not responsible for you taking it personal. We are not attacking you. It’s not our fault y’all take it on a personal level. The sensation of dread of us and other minorities. Generally is a lot worse than the guilt and dread euro men feel (Again we’ve never asked for or are responsible for y’all taking it personal) But the disconnect is so great that it may feel like the end of the world to euro men. That yall have to gaslight us that it is fair and we should judged by “experience or education” (referencing you) or whatever utopia bs. Understanding that it’s not. Your paragraph is a cope. Similar to the CEO trying to deal with the idea that it is in fact unfair and he knows the truth. He’s experiencing dread and guilt ( _They didn’t ask for his guilt they asked for fair wages and reform_)
So see a running theme here? I didn’t ask for your guilt so you can type a paragraph coping with it. I’m asking for awareness and you not to gaslight me things are fair and peaches and cream. I’m not triggered , here to attack you, or any of that other bs. I have to disclaim because it’s another method that people use to cope and dismiss what I’m saying. Actually digest what I’ve said. You are not personally responsible for euro privileged or ignorance. You also land on an intersection like the rest of us(class). You do not have to defend on the behalf of Euro people.
P.S do not get triggered yourself by my words like “cope” and my strong rhetoric. Actually listen to what I said. Find if you disagree find something tangible and something you can dismiss and good faith and not out of charged emotions or guilt.
White=Euro
Black=Afro
So I came here because I was told truth bombs would be dropped, but unfortunately it's really @1:00:11 that the advice for incel finally happens.
I can speak from experience as someone who survived the incel phase and is currently in a loving relationship of 11 years. Having a girlfriend is really overatted.
I would direct lonely men with personality disorders watch this video called "Henry David Thoreau: Why Being a 'Loser' Is a Win" instead.
Basically the only way to win a rigged game is to not compete at all, and true happiness is living your best life without worrying about what other people think. But you're generally not going to get that kind of advice on youtube where literally everybody is worried about what other people think.
Awesome convo.
Thanks!
It's funny the way Macken reacts to the introduction (regarding the manospjere/incel community or whatever) because on the anti-red pill side he's often considered a member of the so called "Intellectual redpill bros"
The left eats their own what else is new
ive got autism n im afab but i think that if i was amab i couldve absolutely fell into the incel n blackpill shit ( not the misogyny part bc i think id still be queer either way lol ) bc of the fact that im rly plain looking n also cant talk to anybody let alone women even now :/
honestly watching u n the fact that the basics of it remind me of myself is why i can feel sympathetic towards them
Big thing I think is ignored here - for obvious reasons - the perspective of women. It’s hard to be even an attractive woman. Most women I know have struggled more than any incel. With body image, with self hatred, with hatred from people around them, from society at large, from family, from friends, from relationships or lack thereof. And yet, we don’t see an incel movement among women. What we see among lonely, unattractive, autistic, etc women is that they find a way to live without all of the things they are told they need. For a lot of incels, I think that’s what they must strive for. Incels expect their lives to magically heal when they are finally given what they’re owed- a woman. But that won’t happen. Incels need to understand they are not owed women. They are not owed love from women, attraction from women, attention from women, sex from women, or relationships from women.
Is it hard to be an ugly misogynistic autistic man with no friends, prospects, goals, aspirations? Yes. But these people must de center women from their lives and center finding happiness outside of patriarchy.
Excellent comment. As a woman who is single and knows many single women, for all sorts of reasons, the sense of entitlement shown by some men baffles me. Life doesn’t owe us a smooth ride with all our dreams are fulfilled and the art of living is in reframing circumstances and learning the lesson that most of our needs can be met in multiple ways, need to be met in order, from basic provision and security up to self actualisation. Then we can be intentional about building a fulfilling life with a man or not.
Preach!
They are not listening to the stories of women who are all going through the exact same issues as a lot of these men while also being mentally ill, or Black, or transgender or disabled. I have observed that a lot of these men are deeply narcissistic in that they for some reason believe that they are the only ones who go through any of that stuff.
From my experience, Black women learn at a very early age that we are ugly with unloveable personalities that no man could ever want. I learned that by the age of fourteen and spent the next 20 years fighting against the self hatred I'd been taught about women who look like me.
I think they need to listen to the stories of women, especially the stories of women who don't look like the women they so often covet.
Regarding Black men… there’s absolutely a group… The Divestors… it’s a small group but FD has shown a dim light on there existence… But women as a larger group, you might have a point… the larger portion of the women you describe may be the more ardent Feminists that people seem to hate as well… just my thoughts.
This is an spetacularly useless comment, to the point I wonder if you even watched the whole video.
Yes, women often struggle more than men, but, no offense, so fucking what? That doesn't make the suffering of these men any less real or deserving of empathy, and just going "oh but women suffer more" is not just playing oppression olympics, it is in fact a common patriarchal point dressed in progressive language.
Men can't complain, men can't cry, men should just man up and stop whinning and take care of their problem with stoic perseverance.
More than that, "find happiness outside of patriarchy" is pretty much the same as saying "think positive" to someone who is depressed.
Because even if you manage to find meaning in something outside of relationships, it still sucks to not have a romantic partner, it still sucks to not have sex, or to be unnatractive, and that's not gonna change or go away just because you manage to land your dream job as a garden bush stylist.
I'm pretty sure most of the women you mention also aren't peachy keen about their circumstances, either.
If all you want to say is that women have no need to empathize with these men, then that's 100% true, this is a problem that men have to figure out amongst ourselves, but you could word that out without any of that other bullshit you spewed.
Here's the good news, though: you are in perfect conditions to make a career out of dunking manosphere types online! And to quote Murphy: "Welcome to not solving the problem"
The word “incel” was literally coined by a woman, describing herself. Being involuntarily celibate and being entitled or misogynistic are two totally separate things. Would you tell a broke person that they need to understand they’re not entitled to money? We all know life isn’t fair. That doesn’t practically help people rise above their circumstances. If your point is that men turn to violence more often than women to solve their problems, I agree that needs to change.
This was great.
I hope you’re also open to having dating conversations with women as well!
We'll see. But, if you wanna escape conflict let her win this time and scrap the whole whataboutism🌝
Murphymacken is good looking guy. I say that as a man
One thing I think it’s crucial for incels to understand about the importance of physical attraction is that it’s not just about sex appeal. When F.D says they “grossify” it I think what he’s getting at is that, well for one they add a lot of weird, racist, pseudoscience,but two, they make it purely about sexual. When in reality attractiveness like hygiene, fashion sense, etc. Signal someone who for lack of a better term “fits in” to society. Someone who’s going to A. Not be weird. B. Be a good time. C. Probably have their life together.
You do not have to look like Brad Pitt to communicate these signals. You really just have to achieve a level of normalcy in your appearance and hygiene. This though. Is much much harder than it seems to people who just get it. But it is possible.
Also don't live in Denver, Colorado.
@@mateaukalua4426 explain lol
We have an ongoing problem here because Academia has set itself up to never be able to objectively study these topics, even though academia has better techniques to study topics generally. So investigating these topics has to fall to laymen, who can be honest potentially but who don't know the best techniques for studying things generally. There really is no best of both worlds solution here because nobody who could be an academic is going to instead independently research these topics. And if they present themselves to you as independent, look and see who is paying them.
I came here expecting to hear grandstanding, but I really liked this discussion. Research based, with an actually intersectional approach to the subject, that acknowledges the class, race, neurodivergence and social climate around those intersections with masculinity.
I agree that being passionate about something can be interpreted as being successful. That's unironically good advice.
I can't believe FD agreed that the incels recognize the problem (in an extremely caricatured and exaugurated way, that is unhelpful to even them) and the biggest issue is finding an actual path to achieve that. The left can offer these people things to get passionate and informed about, if we're willing to try and figure out a way to package our message in accessible and friendly language. If we get them voting it will even create jobs for them in traditionally masculine industries, cause green infrastructure will take a lot of manufacturing and construction.
If I were trying to explain this to activists who might dislike the mention of the subject, which I have (to varying success) I usually find that explaining how: reducing the number of mentally unwell men has a direct relation to how many abusive men there are. The best way to fight bigotry is to educate, and you have to meet people where they are if you want them to listen. Breaking the cycle of abuse in a demographic way, at the root, is done through education not harassment or retribution. It goes hand in hand with justice system reform, from a philosophical perspective.
I'm gonna watch another podcast and see if I want to subscribe, I watched the whole video and I have no objections at all (as a leftist with concern for mens issues from a non-redpill perspective). Completely in support. Much respect for being willing to challenge assumptions/the prevailing narrative, and directly seeking personal growth.
The last ten minutes, chef's kiss to both F.D. and Murphy. I did not expect this.
There are perfect enemies, there just aren't a lot of them, and they're extremely wealthy, private and out of reach for us. Incels are a group of poor/POC/neurodivergent/PTSD people with untreated mental issues. I'm glad murphy really differentiated between incels and fresh and fit types, who are terrible. F'D.'s comparison to muslim people's vilification post 9/11 is a great analogy, and flattening the depth of variation within the community.
Really great stuff. I'm saving this video.
It's all the distortion from the Simulacrum
I wish in one discussion on this topic of all the videos I watch would someone please bring up the role of Abrahamic religion and its foundational beliefs of marriage, women, sex and the role shaming people. Two, the causal factor of poverty and broken families. Three, the mostly likely factor are toxic intergenerational family trama systems and narcissistic parent(s).
Growing up with narcissistic parents its easier to understand the "redpill" or "blackpill" explanations for why you can't find a partner, especially when your younger. Than the better explanation of the mal adaptiveness and inability to form healthy relationships with normal people and partners when you grew up in an abusive environment. Most people don't understand this or have access to therapy to explain why they can't meet someone or form toxic relationships themselves. The better question to ask to alot of these guys is not why do they hate women but what was your childhood/adolescents like.
I don't need your opinion on Palestine but I do think your opinion is gonna be better on average then some random off the street if only because you'd give it some due thought and looking into before spouting it off.
Or you are more likely to recognize your lack of knowledge/biases and caveat appropriately.
i agree with FD when he says he doesnt have the authority to speak on it, but i still think it would be good for him to do what he can do to listen and amplify palestinian voices with his platform
@@chickengogo1683 Agree with both of you. We should still put pressure on him over it. And I call BS on FD thinking he's too under qualified to talk about it. I'm just some gamer stoner and I talk about it all the effin time! I don't give a crap lol I'm a total jack ass but I'm smart enough to see that the IDF has been 1000 times more vile than anyone they are fighting with...
FD is great at diving into the minds of bad men. You know... The main azzholes responsible for the gaza situation... Nothing to offer on the discussion my azz lol. Talk about it FD! It's what any lefty should do. Granted you talked about it a lil and you're clearly on the right side but you could still do more. It's only the worst thing that we have ever seen in our lives basically... I think you would do a great job talking about it. Don't be a h bomber lib lol. I'll lose respect for anyone who acts like him and lies about feeling unqualified to talk about it, even though he clearly has talked about it in the past...
Don't be shy FD. Don't be afraid of Amy Schumer screaming at you. Heck it might be funny lolz.
Same goes for you chad boy. Don't puss out too dawg. You're clearly great at public speaking with people who listen to you. Some pro Palestine commentary couldn't hurt dawg. Talk about it!
im a bi trans guy so maybe not the target demo, but i really disagree with this view of what people find attractive - for me and the people ive dated in group signifiers are THE most important thing. im poor, neurodivergent, nerdy, short and plain looking - and i date people who are poor, neurodivergent, nerdy, and not conventionally attractive. i think especially for ND people dating someone you can relate to and connect with is so, so important - i would feel hugely uncomfortable and out of place dating a wealthy neurotypical with supermodel looks. thats not my scene, yknow? thats not my in group, and i think a lot of incels are looking in the wrong place, feeling out of place because they are. if youre a schlubby, nerdy autistic dude, go date some schlubby, nerdy autistic women you can relate to and connect with.
COPE,nobody wants to live with an autist,there are mentalcels out there who have potential but can't unlock it because of their mental condition