The video is great and all, but the best part is that I was watching with auto-generated captions on and it said "soggy mom slammer" in the intro. Killed me.
I wish I had your captions, mine said "sake bomb"... Edit: I spoke too soon.. "soggy mom" ftw! :D.. someone is slurring his speech when he gets winded =)
The reason zone "stables out" when thrown with off-axis torque is that it's a higher disc. 20mm vs 16. That makes a huge difference when the disc has an unclean flight. Also, a deeper disc tends to be released with more hyzer out of the hand when thrown forehand, simply because when you jam it in your thumbcrease, the inner edge is lifted more. In this case that'd be by 4mm more than the Savior, but you'd have to go pythagorean with your finger length and the width of the disc to figure out how much lower the other end of the disc is and then you could calculate the difference in release angle. My guess is that it'd be about 5 degrees. But if that's the difference between "fluttery hyzer release going to flat and then fading" and "fluttery anhyzer release having to fight out of it", then it's a huge difference and it makes perfect sense why you saw the flight you did.
Absolutely different molds! similar yes, but also quite different in "disc design measures". only 1/10 of a millimeter can create a noticeable difference in the flight and regarding the Culprit vs Savior there's a lot more differences than 1/10 mm, (a lot easier to see in a CAD program 🙂) .. /Best regards Tomas L64
I was having a similar issue with my culprit compared to my zone on forehand until I noticed that my grip was the issue. When holding the culprit the same as my zone, the culprit would come out much more nose down. After adjusting, I got the culprit flexing out faster than my zone but not as fast as my anvil, which seemed true to the flight numbers.
Yeah, that sounds about right with the stability! That's why it was so confusing for me! The Savior seemed more overstable than my zone on backhands.. But forehands I would turn it over a lot easier!
I had the same experience with the culprit. I thought I threw a perfect forehand and it drifted just a little and smacked a tree in a tournament. So I went back to the zone/toro.
Culprit in Supreme plastic would be nice! Until then I will have to check out the Savior. Less arm more wrist might help with some of the forehand release issues you were describing
4:17 I think you have a forehand form with a lot of off axis torque, I also struggle with this. I have seen Connor O'Riley and others rip them pretty far forehand without issue.
Yeah! But I think the Savior is definitely still in the "overstable approach" category when the Pyro I think is more in the overstable mid-range category. At least from what I have heard about it!
@@ApolloDiscGolf yeah I put the pyro more in the mid category for sure. It’s great if you throw the zone but aren’t comfortable with the zone on backhand. For me it’s so comfy in the hand both ways!
I wish on these videos (especially the OS approach discs) you'd talk about the shape of the inner rim (like in your Toro vs Zone). I've noticed across molds and brands they are very different. Some of the approach discs have a very prominent inward rim shape that helps forehands, but I find hurts backhands. The zone and razor claw are very straight up and down compared to the flight plate, whereas the JARN and Temple are negative (inward shaped) and your mention in your other video that the Toro is outward (+ shaped).
Interesting, I don't know if I have noticed to come across rims that are inward leaning! I mentioned it in the Toro review because that one was VERY noticeable to me and it stood out... I will have to try and pay attention more to that for the future!
Funny you should say that about Zone getting a clean release while Savior and Culprit didn't because I (and my forehand dominant friend) had the exact opposite result when comparing Z Zone to A3, Lucid-X Suspect and Entropy. Just couldn't get a clean release out of the Zone while the others did just fine. I also assume that it's mainly about disc depth and personal preference. Since all the mentioned discs are stable enough to handle all (well performed) throws I guess the main advice is to go and feel the disc out before getting it? On that note, I did check the Culprit out in a store and immediately abandoned the thought of getting one because it reminded me of a Zone. Seeing how similar the Savior is I guess it won't be for me either.
I'm excited for this one. I'm a huge Latitude nerd, so that's a lot of it, but I've also struggled in this slot historically. I've tried Tactics, Zones, and Harps, but none have really felt quite right. The Culprit feels nicer in my hand, but my Neo Tactic hasn't been enough of an issue that I felt the need to spend my disc budget on one. With the Savior being in Royal plastic and very close to a Culprit, though, I suddenly felt the need. 😅
Looking at the video, too, I think you're just throwing the Zone better. Could be a better hand fit, could be a decade of experience with it, but you've definitely got a better pop on it with less OAT. It's about as clean as my forehand either way, but the Zone is definitely a little cleaner.
Yeah, like I said, it very well could be because the Zone has been my bread and butter for nearly 10 years now... So anything different will obviously not work as well right off the bat... So mileage may vary! It's a solid disc for sure!
Have you tried an Anvil? Shallower feel, you can find them in premium or baseline for added grip. It's my main forehand approach, also off the tee LHFH.
I throw a dd suspect 4 3 0 3. It looks just like the savior and culprit all 3 molds might be the same lol. I noticed the suspect doesn't do the best with alot of torque
The Suspect is pretty different from these if I remember correctly! These have a wider diameter and the Suspect was much more shallow with a true micro bead on it... and all the ones I tried were puddle topped! And they were never as overstable as a Zone, they were much straighter! And they are closer to a Zone's speed imo than the Culprit/Savior! The Suspect is a great disc!
In my opinion, the OS approach disc is the most important slot in the bag. The Zone fits perfectly in my forehand grip, with perfect depth, and perfect rim shape.
I'm loving the feel of the savior. It definitely reminds me of a zone, but it seems to fit my hands really well due to that rim curvature. I'm excited to watch Kristin throw these all over the place!
So my old stable approach salon is a winger GT and I feel like you've done those discs that I'm kind of sad to see that you give me them in this lineup because I feel like another GT is far more company to Baltimore and backhand but is less likely to skip and so the phone I would always have is a utility but almost never used was GTI will be traveling slot and I think they're only like 36 different. Some of those farther or not I will certainly that is because it's skips but I would love to hear your opinion. Forgive the grammatical errors, if any. I am using voice to text while trying
This is really interesting. I've been trying to force myself to use a different disc for approaches instead of my favorite Putting putter. (Heresy, I know. Lol. ) I'm trying the Zone for now but I also have Pigs. This will help me think through what I actually like. Side note: are you planning bon reviewing the Millennium Vela? I'd love to hear your thoughts on it after rewatching your Teebird video from last year.
Have you tried getting the same mold as your putting putter, but just for approaches? Also I haven’t heard of the Vela before! I will have to look into it…
Flight numbers are just guidelines, they don't tell the whole story! While the Savior isn't fast enough to be considered a 5 speed, it is certainly faster than a Zone.
Honestly the only time I am out there now I filming a video... I don't actually just play a round anymore 😂 Hopefully we will run into each other soon!
Yeah the pros definitely threw it a while back. Like when Paul was winning his first worlds. But I don't think it was used as much because it wasn't a great forehand disc with the large bead on it
Do you think that Westside discs will bring the Anvil back with all these over stable approach discs? I have one and haven't been able to find another one.
Ah! I forgot about the Sinus! I don't know why they discontinued that... That was a great disc! SUPER deep though... I don't know many people, if any that ever forehanded that disc on a regular basis!
@@ApolloDiscGolf it is about the same depth as a harp. Just no bead. But I agree with you about people not forehanding it as much. Thank you for all you do!
@Apollo Disc Golf I just picked one up and for a faster speed overstable approach disc it has been nice. Pretty comfortable back hand grip with a micro bead along the bottom of the rim.
The video is great and all, but the best part is that I was watching with auto-generated captions on and it said "soggy mom slammer" in the intro. Killed me.
I wish I had your captions, mine said "sake bomb"... Edit: I spoke too soon.. "soggy mom" ftw! :D.. someone is slurring his speech when he gets winded =)
I... I don't know what to say... 😂
The reason zone "stables out" when thrown with off-axis torque is that it's a higher disc. 20mm vs 16. That makes a huge difference when the disc has an unclean flight.
Also, a deeper disc tends to be released with more hyzer out of the hand when thrown forehand, simply because when you jam it in your thumbcrease, the inner edge is lifted more. In this case that'd be by 4mm more than the Savior, but you'd have to go pythagorean with your finger length and the width of the disc to figure out how much lower the other end of the disc is and then you could calculate the difference in release angle. My guess is that it'd be about 5 degrees. But if that's the difference between "fluttery hyzer release going to flat and then fading" and "fluttery anhyzer release having to fight out of it", then it's a huge difference and it makes perfect sense why you saw the flight you did.
Absolutely different molds! similar yes, but also quite different in "disc design measures". only 1/10 of a millimeter can create a noticeable difference in the flight and regarding the Culprit vs Savior there's a lot more differences than 1/10 mm, (a lot easier to see in a CAD program 🙂) .. /Best regards Tomas L64
I was having a similar issue with my culprit compared to my zone on forehand until I noticed that my grip was the issue. When holding the culprit the same as my zone, the culprit would come out much more nose down. After adjusting, I got the culprit flexing out faster than my zone but not as fast as my anvil, which seemed true to the flight numbers.
Yeah, that sounds about right with the stability! That's why it was so confusing for me! The Savior seemed more overstable than my zone on backhands.. But forehands I would turn it over a lot easier!
I had the same experience with the culprit. I thought I threw a perfect forehand and it drifted just a little and smacked a tree in a tournament. So I went back to the zone/toro.
Culprit in Supreme plastic would be nice! Until then I will have to check out the Savior. Less arm more wrist might help with some of the forehand release issues you were describing
Spot on review. 100% agree on the stability and torque resistance on forehand vs backhand compared to the zone.
Thank you! And yeah, I thought it was strange! But it was so much more difficult for me to get it to hold
I am waiting for the Tempo but the new Supreme and Royal plastics as so nice.
Yeah their Royal/Supreme plastic is definitely great!
Great videos man.
4:17 I think you have a forehand form with a lot of off axis torque, I also struggle with this. I have seen Connor O'Riley and others rip them pretty far forehand without issue.
Yeah... I need to work on my forehand... But throwing backhand is just too much fun 😂
Sounds like the Pyro might be a good comparison. Pyro became my longer distance Zone. Although it handles torque better than the zone
Yeah! But I think the Savior is definitely still in the "overstable approach" category when the Pyro I think is more in the overstable mid-range category. At least from what I have heard about it!
@@ApolloDiscGolf yeah I put the pyro more in the mid category for sure. It’s great if you throw the zone but aren’t comfortable with the zone on backhand. For me it’s so comfy in the hand both ways!
I wish on these videos (especially the OS approach discs) you'd talk about the shape of the inner rim (like in your Toro vs Zone). I've noticed across molds and brands they are very different. Some of the approach discs have a very prominent inward rim shape that helps forehands, but I find hurts backhands. The zone and razor claw are very straight up and down compared to the flight plate, whereas the JARN and Temple are negative (inward shaped) and your mention in your other video that the Toro is outward (+ shaped).
Interesting, I don't know if I have noticed to come across rims that are inward leaning! I mentioned it in the Toro review because that one was VERY noticeable to me and it stood out... I will have to try and pay attention more to that for the future!
Funny you should say that about Zone getting a clean release while Savior and Culprit didn't because I (and my forehand dominant friend) had the exact opposite result when comparing Z Zone to A3, Lucid-X Suspect and Entropy. Just couldn't get a clean release out of the Zone while the others did just fine.
I also assume that it's mainly about disc depth and personal preference. Since all the mentioned discs are stable enough to handle all (well performed) throws I guess the main advice is to go and feel the disc out before getting it?
On that note, I did check the Culprit out in a store and immediately abandoned the thought of getting one because it reminded me of a Zone. Seeing how similar the Savior is I guess it won't be for me either.
Yeah, I think it just comes down to the feel of the Zone is just better for my game? And it will just be different for everyone!
I'm excited for this one. I'm a huge Latitude nerd, so that's a lot of it, but I've also struggled in this slot historically. I've tried Tactics, Zones, and Harps, but none have really felt quite right. The Culprit feels nicer in my hand, but my Neo Tactic hasn't been enough of an issue that I felt the need to spend my disc budget on one. With the Savior being in Royal plastic and very close to a Culprit, though, I suddenly felt the need. 😅
Looking at the video, too, I think you're just throwing the Zone better. Could be a better hand fit, could be a decade of experience with it, but you've definitely got a better pop on it with less OAT. It's about as clean as my forehand either way, but the Zone is definitely a little cleaner.
Yeah, like I said, it very well could be because the Zone has been my bread and butter for nearly 10 years now... So anything different will obviously not work as well right off the bat... So mileage may vary! It's a solid disc for sure!
Have you tried an Anvil? Shallower feel, you can find them in premium or baseline for added grip. It's my main forehand approach, also off the tee LHFH.
Kastaplast Järn could be a good comparison I believe?
I haven't tried one of those yet! A lot of people have been mentioning it though! I may need to check it out!
I throw a dd suspect 4 3 0 3. It looks just like the savior and culprit all 3 molds might be the same lol. I noticed the suspect doesn't do the best with alot of torque
The Suspect is pretty different from these if I remember correctly! These have a wider diameter and the Suspect was much more shallow with a true micro bead on it... and all the ones I tried were puddle topped! And they were never as overstable as a Zone, they were much straighter! And they are closer to a Zone's speed imo than the Culprit/Savior!
The Suspect is a great disc!
In my opinion, the OS approach disc is the most important slot in the bag. The Zone fits perfectly in my forehand grip, with perfect depth, and perfect rim shape.
Yeah, I have been throwing the Zone so long, I don't know if it will ever be replaced in my bag! I'm just to use to it and know it so well!
I'm loving the feel of the savior. It definitely reminds me of a zone, but it seems to fit my hands really well due to that rim curvature. I'm excited to watch Kristin throw these all over the place!
yeah she will shred with these!
Rpm Kea is still the best feeling os approach imo. Only thing I use on forehand approaches. Much different feel and very os.
I haven't tried anything from RPM before!
@@ApolloDiscGolf they've got some good stuff, but the kea is def underrated. Feels like an A4 but way more overstable.
Latitude 64 caltrop, great disc for forehand!!
Have you tested the Thoughtspace Temple? I would like to see how it compares to that disc.
I have not! I haven't tried too much of TSA. I need to try more of their stuff for sure!
So my old stable approach salon is a winger GT and I feel like you've done those discs that I'm kind of sad to see that you give me them in this lineup because I feel like another GT is far more company to Baltimore and backhand but is less likely to skip and so the phone I would always have is a utility but almost never used was GTI will be traveling slot and I think they're only like 36 different. Some of those farther or not I will certainly that is because it's skips but I would love to hear your opinion. Forgive the grammatical errors, if any. I am using voice to text while trying
This is really interesting. I've been trying to force myself to use a different disc for approaches instead of my favorite Putting putter. (Heresy, I know. Lol. ) I'm trying the Zone for now but I also have Pigs. This will help me think through what I actually like. Side note: are you planning bon reviewing the Millennium Vela? I'd love to hear your thoughts on it after rewatching your Teebird video from last year.
Have you tried getting the same mold as your putting putter, but just for approaches? Also I haven’t heard of the Vela before! I will have to look into it…
A much faster Zone? They're the same speed
Flight numbers are just guidelines, they don't tell the whole story! While the Savior isn't fast enough to be considered a 5 speed, it is certainly faster than a Zone.
It's a ROC from innova, why goes the OG mold get forgotten about?
This is much different than a Roc imo! The roc's would have a pretty good glide to them! when this is a little more utility than a Roc is
Play all of the exact courses as you… no idea how I’ve never seen you on the course before!
Honestly the only time I am out there now I filming a video... I don't actually just play a round anymore 😂
Hopefully we will run into each other soon!
Well the Gator is a pretty old mold and quite overstable it's just that the pro's didn't use it because they didn't need it
Yeah the pros definitely threw it a while back. Like when Paul was winning his first worlds. But I don't think it was used as much because it wasn't a great forehand disc with the large bead on it
If by limited you mean the amount of people that want one then yes you are correct
Do you think that Westside discs will bring the Anvil back with all these over stable approach discs? I have one and haven't been able to find another one.
Honestly I didn't even know that the Anvil went OOP! I thought it was fairly new?
@@ApolloDiscGolf I haven't seen one on the market since I got one 2 years ago as a present.
@@christopherfoerch8216 Dang... that's a bummer... that's such a solid disc!
@Apollo Disc Golf it is a go to disc for me and I wish they would start putting them back out.
You should do a TH-cam short comparing it to the Trust.
Isn't the Trust more like an overstable Buzzz?
I throw alot of lattitude and they are normaly more understable then the flight numbers should indicate. Take RIVE as a refrence
With the Rive you can find pretty stable ones as well as flippier ones!
The Latitude 64 Sinus was released before the Zone… ;) They aren’t too late to the game. I dig your content! Thank you. 🙏🏻
Ah! I forgot about the Sinus! I don't know why they discontinued that... That was a great disc! SUPER deep though... I don't know many people, if any that ever forehanded that disc on a regular basis!
They are releasing Sinuses! It does not match the stability of a zone, Toro etc. though
@@ApolloDiscGolf it is about the same depth as a harp. Just no bead. But I agree with you about people not forehanding it as much. Thank you for all you do!
Can't forget the Kastaplast JARN and Thoughtspace Temple
Yeah, I will have to try those out!
All your vids are at my home courses.... we need to play a round sometime.
I find your lack of Pig disappointing - Darth Vader probably
😂
#preach
Have you tried a Bard?
I think I have thrown a Bard once or twice... But it was a while ago and I don't remember much about it!
@Apollo Disc Golf I just picked one up and for a faster speed overstable approach disc it has been nice. Pretty comfortable back hand grip with a micro bead along the bottom of the rim.
Dang, guess trilogy just knows I can flick smooth as frick
#notmyflightnumbers Pig will always be a putter in my heart. ❤❤❤
Zone/pyro. Best combo ever
I'm just sittin' here jelly that your snow is gone
Yeah it was really nice that day! It's super rainy now... But I'm glad we are past the snowy season here in Kansas!
until you showed the culprit i would have sworn it was just a slower speed anvil
Yeah, the Anvil I would say it more overstable that this! That this is a beef cake!
Trilogy has had the westside anvil for a while. It’s basically an A2. Anvil is 💰
True! That disc is great! Super beefy!
My cryztal zone is never leaving my bag lol
Yeah my Cryztal Zone is straight money! I don't think it will ever leave my bag either!
Innova will always be copied for drivers. Discraft's Zone will also always have many "clones."
Slammer has been around for more than 4-5 years…
Yes, but those were not quite as overstable and they were discontinued. And there have been a recent spike in new overstable approach discs!
Rip no gyro
Absolutely different would mean that there's no similarities
First
You sound out of breath, slow down..