How to Plywood a Floor for Tiling
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
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James and Ian show us how they prepare a hallway floor for tiling using marine plywood.
How to install plywood flooring using a marine ply subfloor ready for tiling.
Thanks go to James King for letting Roger film this project and causing him to slow down!
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It’s jurgen Klopp
Brilliant video and super helpful for me to replace my bathroom floor. The floor I have just ripped up with tiling on top did not have a single nogging between the joists which is probably why the tiles had cracked as you could see there was movement.
I am not sure if it helps anyone but received this from one of the manufacturers of decoupling membranes:
Timber Substrates Codes of Practise
BS 5385 Part 3 may be useful regarding the use of timber substrates for tiled applications. BS 5385-3, which is the Code of practice for the design and installation of internal and external ceramic and mosaic floor tiling in normal conditions, includes the following recommendations under section 6.3.4 Timber bases:
New timber bases - New timber bases should be constructed with noggings between the joists. external grade plywood, of 15 mm minimum thickness, should be securely screwed to both the joists and noggings at a maximum of 300 mm intervals. All junctions between boards should be supported by noggings or joists. If necessary to further strengthen the floor or reduce the risk of movement, additional layers with a minimum thickness of 10 mm should be securely screwed to the plywood at 300 mm centres, ensuring the joints do not coincide.
Existing timber bases - Where possible, existing boards should be removed and the recommendations for new timber bases followed. For floors of small area (e.g. a single sheet/board or where board joints are unlikely to cause problems) it may be possible to achieve the required rigidity by securely screwing external grade plywood (minimum thickness of 15 mm) to the existing board/floor board systems.
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I hope this helps someone else and shows James from skill builder is not going over the top when complying with BS 5385-3.
Massive thank you SKill builder :-)
Marine ply is 18mm which is actually way above requirements for building code. That said this entirely depends on how tough you want your floor to be and given that this is the entrance, I'd say the stronger the better.
One thing not mentioned in the video, marine ply is only water resistant as delivered. Once you cut the sheet you need to seal the cuts and absolutely do not skip that part. If you are going to don't waste money on ply and get OSB3 which does not need to be sealed. Glue and screw the OSB and will never move especially if it's the T&G kind. Goes without saying 18mm is min for OSB.
I’m also belt and braces in all my work, it’s so nice to see this. I see so much of the polar opposite where it’s a “that’ll do” approach and the job is falling apart after a couple of years. The original installers usually fob off the customer with some nonsense leaving no choice but to start again and do a proper job.
And you find they sometimes charge just as much or if not more than the proper job would've cost.
enjoy these on site with James. keep up the good work!
and Ian. We are going to get him to talk one day. He is a lovely guy
I wouldn’t want to be the next person to take that up great job
Really enjoying the banter and conversations. Chip shop,boots, future work. James is a relaxed character and a top tradesman well done sir I doth my cap.👍👍
Another great vid Roger. I wish all tradesman had the same attitude as James. 👍
Just had to do similar up in our own bathroom, floor was out 2.5” over 10’ 😂. Turned out 1 joist completely missing, next one had been cut in half and just laying there. How one of us hadn’t come through the ceiling when having a bath I’ll never know - lathe and plaster ceiling holding it up I reckon 😮😂
Bloody plumbers
Watching the lads put that square piece down, that’s where clag from the wall gets knocked onto a joist or you find a nail sticking up.
You need some open toe cap pit boots. You don’t work on steel so no chance of someone welding you down. 😀
About time James had his own channel. I really enjoy seeing his workmanship.
We enjoy seeing his work too but he has to do it and filming and editing is a time consuming distraction. If in the future as he gets older James decides to launch his own channel we will support him and give him every assistance but right now he is sticking with Skill Builder.
So great to see guys really passionate about their work 👌🏼
Best pair of boots I've ever bought are a brand called Sixton.
Im wearing the same pair 6 days a week for just over 2 years now (as a carpenter) and they still feel like a new boot and still have the toes intact.
James, I could watch you all day cuz. Keep up the great work.
Cheers Dan.
Jesus, I'd expect you'd have to be dragged on your front behind a horse to get damage to your shoes like that within 6 weeks.
Excellent prep-work on that floor. 👌🏻
yes,tiles and movement do not go together, so you have done a great job there. as long as the tiler uses flexible adhesive and grout it will be fine.
2:12 😍 I'm a chippy and I live the look of that hammer 🔨 nice work boys great job!!
Unfortunately that hammer got nicked! 😩
If a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing right ❓🤔
These guys do it Right ✅ 👏
👏👏👏😉
Beautiful job as ever chaps 🧱👍🏼
Look on the bright side, those boots were much cheaper than your Painters Centre Beanie!!!
So many builders think screws are not necessary in carpentry. What they mean is, "my nail gun is fast". Nice to see them using screws, since they went to all that trouble and expense to remove the floor, why not do it, obviously they have the budget to have it this way,
Excellent
Love those Spectre Wood Screws you used in the vid. I get them from Toolstation & find they're on a par with Spax Wood Screws in use & cost about 1/3 of the price. Son buys them cheap "Silver" Wood Screws that drives me bonkers .... spend more time trying to get them to drive in & either rounding the Philips Slot or breaking Impact Bits (total false economy).
Try floortite screws for flooring. You’ll never look back..
@@danielbolton6905 Definitely, recently discovered them and they are terrific. Tiny heads and really strong.
Hi James & Ian - what vans you do both have? Would love a van tour at some point! Cheers guys, you always do a first class job!
About to tile mine. Victorian pile that once had tiles. I'm not ripping up 25mm pitch pine boards. Hardie backer, urethane glue and screw, encaustic tiles on flexible glue.
I had the very same problem with the steel toecaps boots cutting through the front of leather boots so I use Dickies Medway Boots & I spend the majority of my day on my knees too. depending on work you will easily get 12+ months before the even look rough. So no winter slush in the toes👍🏻
amazon is amazing for safety trainers/shoes ,mine were £30 from a brand called " blackhammer " had them 6 months barely a scratch on them ( red and black steel capped trainers )
Will I be able to do this in bathroom over original wooden floor? Also would the tiler lay on play wood? Thanks
Belt and braces, this reminds me when my dad told me that I should wear a condom even if your lady friend is on the pill.
That not belt & braces. It’s self defence.
Great work I like using 22mm T&G plywood, glue screw so strong even without noggings.
Never use ply to tile on. Use a cement based board.
yes over the ply. Cement board is not structural. Listen to what James said. It is up to the tiler what he puts on top of the ply.
@@SkillBuilder stated on another comment, 22mm Hardie floor is superior to ply and you don't have to overboard with a thin tileboard. It's a all in one solution, quicker and better for tiling straight onto. Everybody has a their way of doing things and rightfully so but less steps and a superior finish is in my opinion the best practice.
Ply, Ditra mat, tile. Never had a problem yet. If you can cross laminate two sheets of ply but one 18mm wbp is normally sufficient
@daz374 and he didn't...
Cheers lads
Try some Englebert Strauss footwear, not cheap but very good.
I’ve just started wearing their stuff, fantastic gear and at sensible prices
Got to be 25mm ply. Just did one. Amazing how stiff 25mm it is.
💵💰💵💰💵💰💵💰
What thickness was the ply you used?
If James’ toes are anything to go by I’m surprised he’s got any knees left
Yes we did talk to him about that. He needs pads
Try apache stuff. Its underrated but bloody good stuff and not stupid expensive
Great advice James regarding how tiler preps floor before tiling. Back in the day i used to tile straight onto ply with no problems at all. Done it for years. But floors started to fail. Adhesive just would not bond. You can get 2 part rubberised adhesive (BAL Flex) which sticks anything to anything but is expensive and nasty to work with and did have a tendency to shrink which could cause lippage problems as it dried. Way to go is always glue and screw down Backer Boards, i like James Hardie. On a side note. A while back i had a load of sheets of ply on my van overnight. Drove to work the following morning and my eyes and throat was on fire, really burning and painful. Researched that and it's called 'off gassing'. During manufacturing formaldehyde glues, as well as other compounds are used. Nasty stuff.
These English boys don’t f&@k around! Great video!
Prep like this would save me and my customers many nightmares.
2:55 had me in stitches
hi iv just sent back a pair of De Walt safety shoes after 6 month ware coming apart in the same way ,many years ago the boots had the steel toe caps on the outside and seem to last a lot longer it seems looks and style are more important than longevity.
Membrane is a must no matter which ply marine or submarine
Very informative would liked to have seen it tiled thanks for posting bren
Tiling video is coming up soon
Why is your mobile ringing from underneath those boards?
What would you do if one of the walls sits on the floorboards? Also love the videos.
Hi Guy’s awesome video love to see the job done properly wouldn’t expect anything else from James true craftsman, the only thing I would of done is insulated but maybe client didn’t want to do it. Have a awesome week Guy’s all the best Tony 👍
Cheers Tony, insulation wasn’t on the spec but easily rectified from the living room floor if they change their mind (at a cost of course!).
If they did fit insulation, what would it be? Would it be 100mm pir, 50mm air gap then chipboard? Or do you have the pir hard up against the chipboard? Do you put some sort of vapour barrier between the board and pir? Cheers
What will be your between wood and tile uncoupling method? Schluter-DITRA? Other product?
This is up to the tiler but there are plenty of good thin decoupling mats out there now. You can buy one 2mm thick from many tile merchants. Dunlop do one which is fairly cheap and is perfect on plywood
@@SkillBuilder Excellent feedback.
Ditra went down last week. We have a video coming up
I would have used polymer adhesive too!
For one second I thought it was Jürgen Klopp doing some tiling!
I bought a pair of Heckel composite toe cap boots 2 years ago which were quite pricey - around £80 at the time. Admitidly I'm an field service tech so may not take as much abuse, but they are as comfortable as day one and have shown no sign of degrading like that whatsoever. The only thing that's degraded is the water proofness, and that's easily rectified by a slathering of Renapur.
Would you suggest this approach upstairs. I'm in a 1950's Semi and will be putting down laminate floor
The floorboards are old, knackered and creeky.
I would like to put the flooring down the best way possible
I like to put the screws every 150 mm but I add wood glue to the top of the joists for that extra stick. by doing that I think it stops any future movement. well that's my theory. I use wpp because it's usually as cheap as normal ply. it wasn't but for some reason it is now.
Do you not need to leave a 10mm expansion gap round the edges of the ply? Looked a tight fit
No, 2-3mm.
Great work folks. Quick question though why wasn't the mouldy wall behind the old skirting position not replaced out first?
There is no mouldy old wall. That sand and cement is as hard as a rock and the skiritings cover it, that is why we have them. You have to resist the temptation to rebuild the house. Customers hate builders who go in and start spreading gloom and doom. "Yes we need to replace the hall floor and that wall is a bit ropey, we'll have that down and all the underfloor area needs insulating and we might as well do a rewire because once that floor is down there is no way of getting to the cables, Yeah I know we said a £1000 but we didn't know about all this other stuff and besides my wife could use a holiday"
Great video! James is that a freud blade? If so how does it compare to the festool blades? Thanks 👍
Freud blades are brilliant and last ages. Try one.
Hi Shane,
Yes, it’s a Freud blade. They’re actually pretty good and stay sharp for ages. There’s not a lot of difference in price between that and the Festool but I got it because you can pick them up in Screwfix. I did make the mistake once of buying a 165mm Freud blade as they didn’t have the 160mm in stock and although it fits fine in the machine (and you have to allow for the additional 2.5mm on your cutting depth) the blade is actually slightly thinner and the riving knife gets jammed in the cut so pretty useless really which is annoying because it’s half the price of the correct one.
Why no insulation fitted under the floor?
My brother-in-law used to be a contract brickie and got through a pair of trousers in 4-6 weeks, he always looked like he was homeless!
Tried doing this for a floating floor. Both pieces of ply I have are warped 4" across their length and no matter what trick or tip I try - they ain't getting any better. Wondering if I should have just used chipboard in the first place.
Daft question - why not use grade 3 OSB (heavy duty damp resistant)?
... so you have a trademark for all SkillBuilder collaborators , Ear Defenders are on the Neck .
If you wear ear defenders you soon find out that you don't need them all the time and the best place to store them is around your neck.
I had a pair of ballistic nylon work boots that I inherited from my older brother that he used from tree planting in northern Canada that lasted 16 YEARS, no joke. I retired them when the sole literally wore through. My next pair didn't make it past 6 months. Everything these days seems to blow out to easily: the toe, the heel, the sides. I'd rather pay 500 for something that lasts as opposed to 250 for a 'supposedly good boot' that doesn't but they don't seem to exist anymore.
Look at some of the North American boot makers like Nicks, Wesco or Viberg.
Can you use 18mm hardwood ply to replace floor then tile on?
No insulation?
Would it be better to use Spax Wirox 60m TX WIROX Screw. I used them first for instaling chipboard. Then I tried them for the floorboards and plywood. Great screws. Can I also ask how to seal plywood edges. I am doing a ply floor for my bathroom. The ply is lv 3 exterior grade. I read that I should seal the edges.
On a bathroom full ripout/redo, found serious damage from long-term small leaks and now had to take the woodfloor, vapour, subfloor chipboard and insulation up. There's a concrete screed ( cottage/barn build) so no idea if there even a dpm. Ideally I'd like to dry out and level ( old floor concave so recticel has deformed and will be bouncy). If there any leveling materials compatible with higher RH? Either that it's old insulation, new t&g MR boards and a fracture mat before porcelain. Niggling thoughts of the new boards springing as they can't be fixed down. Any ideas. Thanks in advance
Sre you going to go back to see the tiling job Richard as well.
It looks like you are voting with your feet when it comes to the indestructible footwear and Dulux/AkzoNobel products. You’ve gone with a Ronseal wood preserver for the floor joists.
Hopefully the high quality job you’ve done on the floor will go a long way towards winning you the loft conversion and house extension works.
NOOICE!
Hi Roger, some great content as always 🙌
My ground floor is also joisted and the void is roughly around 1.5 - 2 feet deep I believe. We’re having a full home renovation & I’m hoping to have the vast majority of downstairs tiled and really want under floor heating (wet) putting in.
Rather than going through all the procedures to make the joists acceptable for this do you think it would be better to just pull it all out and fill the void with the required hardcore/cement etc and start a fresh so to speak?
It’s worth mentioning my home is semi detached so I don’t know if that complicates the matter at all?
Thanks a lot Roger, hope you can help 👍
Have u had job done now?as we dl same and j kept joists,went with spreader plates but still No 100% sure yet
Why use ply over chipboard
Roger you'll be punting Viagra next in how it helps you while working at altitude and the benefit is you can Shah the Mrs at the same time.
Can tiling on flat roof, on bituminous felt?
Or on epdm membrane to put pads 4x2 joist, decking..?
Want to make terrace on flat roof what can use?
What is best option?
Hi Could you please tell me what tracks are compatible with the ERBAUER Track saw
I'd heard that Marine ply shouldn't be used as a tiling sub base as the chemicals used to water proof the ply can seep into and stain the grout. Don't know for sure if it's true however.
The preservatives will seep through white grout and turn in orange but on a floor with a decoupling membrane it is not a problem. Never us marine ply for wall tile substrate.
@@SkillBuilder what thickness ply and was it really Marine ply or just WBP ext ply
Was the marine ply necessary? T&G ply or osb could be a cheaper allternative(22mm)? Also spax do a flooring screw, its the bollocks!
I want to do my bathroom but I have zero equipment for the job 😂
A chippy loves a chippy. 🍟
Someone laughed at me once when I said I was going to get my chippie tools out of the van. They said that they were expecting me to come back with a small wooden fork and some sachets of salt and vinegar. 😂😂😂
Noce video guys showing that ply can be used to tile onto. Should there not be an expansion gap around the ply though?
It should not be used for wall tiling. Plywood on the floor is fine but it needs a special primer or a decoupling membrane
Anyone know the thickness of this ply? Floor supplier store guy is telling me to re-sheet with 6mm ahead of putting down engineered wood flooring. I said, colour me skeptical.
Marine ply is for (as the name implies) building boats, it has no joins in the layers, it's total overkill in construction. Far Easter WBP hard wood ply it's the same thing , it just has overlaping joins in the layers. You'll save a packet with far Eastern and is probably still over the top for a floor.
It's a very common mistake to describe exterior plywood as "marine plywood."
DIY and building shows on television seem to call any plywood "marine plywood." Over the years “marine” has become a generic term to describe plywood that is exterior rated.
Standard exterior plywood is bonded using an exterior phenol glue. The specification for this is EN314-2 Class 2. Previously termed "WBP" (Weather and Boil Proof). Plywood bonded with this glue will not delaminate, even after 72 hours in boiling water.
Often, when a client is asking for Marine plywood they actually mean WBP bonded exterior plywood. This is a relatively inexpensive product and can be softwood plywood, tropical hardwood plywood and birch plywood.
There are other types of WBP plywood available but these are the most common.
Genuine Marine plywood is normally used for the boat building industry or where the board is going to be in contact with water and moisture for a very long time. The standard for marine plywood is BS1088 - bond specification EN314-2 Class 3. Above this is "Lloyds Approved". The glue that's used to bond the veneers together is exactly the same glue as in WBP plywood.
The BS1088 standard comes from the types of timbers used in the make up of the plywood and the quality of the timbers used. Obviously in marine plywood more naturally durable timbers are used and the quality of these timbers and the manufacture of the board is better. Marine plywood is a lot more expensive than exterior plywood and is generally used in applications where the cost of a failure of a board would be extremely high. In these situations the initial higher price of the marine grade is justified in exchange for peace of mind.
How good is the warranty on the boots ? I dont think I've had a pair get that bad before after six weeks and that's when i have used them in concrete and you know what that does to them . I normally change mine around 3 months but that is cause of health issues . I think you have put them on the bench grinder . I thought they looked really comfortable when you started wearing but that's not good after 6 weeks .
What’s happened with insulation😅😂
I would have insulated that floor too. Good opportunity to do so.
Shorts not normally allowed on site, PPE states long trousers.
Yes that is why so many builders prefer not to work on the big sites. They suck every bit of joy out of the job.
I've been of sites that also stipulate long sleeves aswell, seriously.
The last place I worked at stipulated I grow a moustache and wore a half unbuttoned short sleeve shirt. I felt like a right dick until I saw the guy dressed as a cowboy, another as a policeman, an Indian too. We felt a little humiliated until the gaffer explained to us that we should feel lucky just to have a job. "Young men, there's no need to feel down" he said.
Hi just ribbed up a bathroom ...walls and floor...Tiles came off wall easy enough but the floor was tuff going.Every tile was rock solid and pulled most of the ply with it...I have taken up the old ply aswell.Old ply was definitely no more than 6mm ..possibly less..I have read on forms 6mm should not be used only 18mm upwards...I intended putting 6mm ply back screw every 6 inches prime and tile over..If you google it most say 6mm no way..I did find one comment from a guy who took up a floor over 20 years old on 6mm ply and it was one of the hardest floors he ever had to take up.Tiles were rock solid like mine not one was loose or hollow...So do you think I should stick to my first idea of 6mm ply..House is 20 years old bathroom floor is small ..only about 4 yards on floor..Flooring boards won't probably move now after 20 years..There was a few stains order ply but tiles were solid as a rock...had to kanga each one off. So why is everybody against 6mm ply if it put down right ..thanks
The price of WBP can make your eyes water.
It’s shocking
Why not use Grade 2 or 3 OSB? It’s dense and fibres go all directions.
how come no floor insulation?
Do you not need to leave an expansion gap for the plywood? Or is it not needed due to the amount of fixings used?
Yes there is a small expansion gap around the edge which is plenty for a room of this size.
I know it varies A LOT but ballpark figure for the cost of a builder to do this on a 5.8m x 3.5m room?
You cant beat Dewalt boots.
I've done this kinda thing several times for customers (at the request of the person doing the flooring) like you I totally over engineered it, but still wasnt confident. Never had a call back, but the idea of ceramic tiles on a timber floor just doesn't sit well with me..... how do you feel about that?
👍
Great video by the way.
So will tiles be put straight onto that plywood or will a primer of some
Sort need to be applied before putting down adhesive and tiles?
ARDEX P 51 is a multi-purpose primer ideal for priming porous surfaces prior to the application of ARDEX water-based levelling and smoothing compounds, and wood based sheets and boards prior to the application of ARDEX X 7001 tile adhesive. Multipurpose -
@@SkillBuilder that’s really helpful - thank you.
Should have insulated the underfloor while the floor was up. Good job on the floor though!
Jurgen klopp
Do you wear insoles?
I don’t but I often think that it would be a good idea!
Very big channel did u do anything on soundproofing?
Not yet
Can we get a video of your tiler please!!!
It’s Kevin! Hopefully we’ll get some shots of him.
coming up soon on Skill Builder
James King u have to get Kev on this TH-cam channel. The viewings will go threw the roof!!!
Has James a TH-cam channel
Would have been a better job taking the wood out and concreting if your going to do all that..marine ply that thick must be ,£50 quid a sheet...also the pipes going into the radiator bury them in the wall..screwing every 100 mm and using that bit of wood as measuring? Can you not judge roughly 100 mm by your eyes?
It would take 7m3 of concrete to fill that area at a cost of approx £100 per m3 plus removal of all the existing floor, disposal of the joists, support of the staircase, shuttering off of the rest of the ground floor. The gas, electricity and water mains would also have to be shuttered around in case they needed replacing. Then a screed would need to be applied as a top coat and then on top of that the family would have to live elsewhere for a few days while the work is being completed as it’s their only access to the house so I feel that concrete is a more expensive option which the client would be highly unlikely to go for.
As for the 100mm spacer block, I don’t want the screws at roughly 100mm apart, I want them exactly 100mm apart. It must be an ocd thing plus my eyes are too lazy to work it out. 👍
There’s a void under the floor for a reason. To have airflow to remove damp. If you concrete the floor you will get damp problems.
Is that Jurgen Klopp
If I wanted to get in touch with James, how do I make this possible?
You could try leaving a message at the chip shop.
I do envy you lot, that's how I remember it when I was in the building trade in the 80's and 90'.
I have to ask... What was that tool you prised between the wall and board edge , (4.50)???
It is primarily a tool for removing skirting boards. It is chisel-shaped at the bottom and you can hammer it down if the skirting boards are a bit stubborn, and then just pry them off.
Why is it when I ask Jewson et al for 'marine ply' I get aggressively told 'there's no such thing' or 'no one uses that anymore' , but when I watch videos of professionals like yourselves, you're all using it?