Bad machining should not be an excuse for bad parts getting to the consumer. Most machine shops have an inspection dept. that checks dimensions and hardness before they release to production. sounds like the companies are purposely shipping bad parts. I have been a machinist for over 25 years and there is no excuse for those parts making it out the door with bad dimensions.
Thanks! for the plug It actually means allot coming from you! I have said on many occasions that Uncle Tony has forgotten more about Mopar's that I ever knew, Subed to your channel years ago. just a side note something I did not mention in my video, but I should have, there is also the possibility the lifters bottoms are not 90 degrees to the lifter body, a fellow machinist friend of mine pointed this out I haven't really figured out how to check this since the bottoms are a convex radius but I'm working on it
Every side of a sphere is the same. If it is ground correctly I see no way the radius can’t come out right. Now I do see where it would be possible to put the sphere off center and that very well could be the case if they are using a mill to create the radius on a clamped non rotating lifter. In the past the radius was ground individually on a rotating lifter if it was off center you either wound up with a flat in the center or it was ground right.
Lower tech/least space [since expensive optical measuring projectors oem's use are not a small business investment typically]... an A grade 12"x12" granite and a stand with test indicator [Starrett 708BCZ or equivalent with 0.0001" gradations]. Move [upside down] lifter, check side to side verifying crown and symmetry. Rotate 120 degrees and recheck 2x if there's any concern of consistency. A straight edge might be helpful as a guide/keeping indiator point over midline of lifter being checked. Off axis crown work will reveal itself. Like your channel btw: learned a few things, which is always good. I still run solid/flat tappets because... well, I'm hard headed like that.
This quality issue is across all industries. Im an old toolmaker who was taught in an apprentice/ journeyman type situation. Everything we sent out of the shop was treated as if we were buying it ourselves. Recently we ordered some drill rod blanks to make some custom tooling. We generally have a 10- 15% inspection rate for incoming raw material. I personally grabbed 1 shank out of the 13 that we received and it checked perfect. When I went to braze up all 13 tools only 1 fit in the brazing fixture. Due to the suppliers lack of quality of finished product we now have to inspect all incoming product from that vender 100%. Problem is now that 13 piece order has turned into 200 to 500 piece orders that we have to spend more time QC’ing at a 100% rate in order to keep OUR standards consistent.
thanks , you cannot say enough about this , seen to many failures due to bad cams and or lifters , no excuse for this I've had flat tappet engines go 700,000 miles with no problems back in the day , with the machining "quality " available today there are no excuses for this . the plan is to frustrate us into going erectric
I got a cam from Summit and found defects in it, wasn't ground right. They told me to keep it and sent me a new one for free. Before it goes in the engine is definitely the time to do it. It was my first build, inspired by UT's ultimate daily driver series, and luckily I had listened to his advice on checking every single part.
Took my comp cam to a local very good cam shop. Brand new outta the box it was bent. I paid the money to repair it and summit refunded me my extra cost for the build. On quality defects.
Summit service is great, received a set of defective Comp roller lifters (retaining rings had all fallen out in the box!) after sending them some pics and proof of returned shipping, they sent out a replacement set.
I remember, back in the late 1970's, I ordered a Boss 351 camshaft from Ford. The Ford Dealer Used UPS to ship the camshaft, UPS broke the first camshaft into 3 pieces. UPS broke the second camshaft in half. Dealer use another company, and I finally got a one piece camshaft. So.... you can lose a camshaft, before you get it.
My guess is the move to CNC machines with "button pushers" operating them for crowning lifters/grinding cams. With a manual dial indicator the machinist(not button pusher) has to be on the ball while grinding those parts. QC checks are obviously not happening.
the engineered process sucks if button pushers can't do the job. you have to engineer the process to who do it and with what. it's easy to make a cad(/cam) file and not take into account what machine is going to make it and what it can do and to what. the end product looks like it should be to the eye but maybe the important detail got lost on when making the toolpath or when the machine was executing the toolpath. anyway ultimately it's always the companys fault.
There used to be a cam manufacturer called wolverine and they sold cams called blue racer. They were advertised as having more taper and wouldn't go flat.
I have to wonder if in the process of changing over from grinding roller cams to flat tappet cams, the operator isn't setting the taper on the grinder.
It's fun to think about that somewhere out there, there's some unsupervised grinder operator just grinding nothing but flat cams and wiping out engines across the country
@@bartsarton2212 After so much turnover, I wouldn't be surprised to find operators who are completely self taught on their machine with no training whatsoever. Working like that, every day is a learning experience 😂
Still have my original 252/252 cam, put off the cam change job for quite a while till this cam epidemic has been sorted. This video gives me pointers on what I should be inspecting. Thanks Tony.
Good on ya uncle Tony there’s a builder I won’t mention names here in Melbourne Australia when he gets a cam out of the box. He puts it on a lathe looking machine checks it for straightness even if its just a few thou out they straighten it they check the lobes for taper, and they take brand-new lifters out of the box and machine them with a 2° crown. When the engine is on the stand, they turn the crank by hand and basically for every one turn of the crank you can see the lifter spin at least one revolution it’s very pronounced. That is their fix.
Absolutely, u nailed it brother, u gotta check everything before u ever put it in an engine. That way the manufacturers can’t say shit about you doing anything to compromise the parts 👍
I just did a camshaft break in of a Summit 1103 cam for my 350 SBC. I watched & followed a combination of UT's & Myvintageiron's advice on Flat Tappet cams: 1. Get the good lifters (Delphi) with the oil groove in the body of the lifter.(Genuine GM Lifters). 2. Lube the cam & lifters thoroughly with camshaft Assembly lube. 3. Use a High Zinc/ZDDP break-in oil (I used Valvoline VR1 10W30). 4. Make sure each lifter can freely rotate in it's lifter bore. 5. Pre-fill the oil filter with oil and install BEFORE 1st start. 6. Thoroughly pre-lube the engine by using a drill to circulate oil up to each rocker arm BEFORE 1st start. 7. If in doubt, use some more Zinc/ZDDP oil supplement and zinc the snot out of it!!
I put a AMC 360 together earlier this year. I used a bullet racing cam , 15 nos lifters ( made about 13 years ago and new China made lifter from sealed power. 512 lift 1.6 rock ratio . Used OEM springs . Lots of cam break in lube , rotella t4 and Lucas break in additive. I followed your advice for pre filling the carb with gas and set the ignition advanced a bit . Started up pretty quickly and took it to 2000 rpm rite away . Ran for twenty five minutes varying the rpm up and back down to no less than 2000rpm . After the break In period I pulled the intake and inspected the lifters. All lifters showed signs that they were rotating. I put the China lifter in the #1 exhaust bore . The 15 nos lifters showed a perfect wear pattern but the China lifter showed circular groves worn into it and the lifter was flattering out .
I went with a custom FT cam from bullet, all is well, I watched that video and yes, manufacturing defects in machining, not hardness, bullet grinds there cams, they check everything. In my 40 plus years of building engines, I never used light springs to break in a cam, never lost a lobe, had a few lifter plungers go bad, I will not trust an off the shelf cam again.
This doesn't get talked about enough, I run Cams from Isky, Crower and Schneider. Yep, they cost more....because they're done right. Bullet is the same deal, along with a handful of other grinders
Hi Uncle Tony. Great video as always! On a similar note, a few years ago I was driving for a ride share and my Chevy HHR was nearing 200,000 mi and I needed to replace the lower control arms, shocks, struts, tie rods, front discs/pads, rear drums/ shoes. I ordered most of these "name brand" parts through Amazon, the rest at a local brick & mortar auto parts retailer. I got it all together, installed and measured everything off and was dismayed to find that most of the parts wound up having problems within a couple months or less. Warped rotors, inferior rubber bushings etc. Driving was my only income at the time. I couldn't afford to deal with returning parts through Amazon to wherever, and have a defunct car for a long time for a "maybe" outcome. Shortly thereafter the Pandemic hit and I decided to sell the car and exit the ride-share business. Where is the accountability, the pride of craftsmanship in today's world!
You are definitely NOT beating this topic to death. This is a major concern for a lot of people. I've wanted to install a new cam and lifters in my 440 for at LEAST the last 2 years, but I totally put those plans on hold waiting for this issue to be resolved. Thank you so much for this video! I finally feel like I know enough about this issue now that I can safely move forward and catch any issues before they happen!
you don't have to wait,just buy one time and buy isky and bleed for the parts and be done with it,i've used their cams and lifters since 1971 and will not use any other,many engines i have assembled,if you are going to waste money on anyting get real cams and lifters,their reputation is on the line,they don't sell junk,piss on the money,who want's to do a job twice
The problem IS NOT GOING TO BE RESOLVED... welcome to modern manufacturing - quality control is in batches! You make a 100 parts and test 5 random ones out of the 100
Working In a bearing plant for 44 years, I have checked a lot of bearings for hardness, that perfect hardness for a bearing was 58 Rockwell hardness, the standard with a + or -- 2 tolerance, this was critical for failure because of the wear, great point, when these lifters and cams were outsourced, and not held to specs, that's where all the problems came from, had an engine built by Doug Herbert, used his cam and lifters and heads, his dad invented the roller cam/lifter, this helped stop valve binding, they sent a build sheet with all the cam specs, and recommended Shell rotella T for the oil after 500 mile break in oil, that was shipped in the engine, thanks Uncle Tony great infro as always.
That's funny, why back in the nineties when the problem first started appearing, a cam grinder here in New Zealand told me the issue was often there was no taper on the lobes. Well, he was before his time.
I started rebuilding SBC, SBF, SBO, SBB, Cadillac, BBC, BBF. Never lost a camshaft. But that was before Cats. Before they removed all the additives from oil 🛢. Now we use roller camshaft.
Measuring before assembly is great advice. You have to. I'd also suggest-as a final test- bluing the cam lobes and lifter faces might help. With the heads on, pushrods in, and everything assembled, turn the motor over several times. It might be apparent if there's an odd pattern in the bluing that there's a problem. Better to find it before running the engine.
Also simply look for rotation on all lifters. "Rotating lifter" is probably what the system should be named for that matter, there's nothing flat except the valve tips in a properly functioning flat tappet valve train.
Easy to check crown or taper if you have a dial indicator. Mount the indicator to a flat surface above the lifter and slide the lifter left/right across the diameter. Sholuld see zero at edge and increase to .003 at center. Same with cam lobe, use V blocks on journals. Get as fancy as you want. A lathe, mill etc.
i've built a lot of sb a bb mopars over the decades i have never once wiped a cam used all kinds. back then manufacturers gave a crap about their products not so much any more.
Also, before you put on the intake, install pushrods and set the rockers, record where the c clip is on each lifter. Turn engine over 20 rotations by hand. Verify every lifter rotated else stop don't send it, hope is not a plan
this is something that should not need to be addressed but i am glad you are informing people .. new parts should not be defective and these days it seems to be the norm
Uncle Tony You aren’t beating this topic to death, this is important information and is most definitely need to know, I’m gonna build a 360 soon for my dodge D250 and I’m scared to even put a new cam in it because I can’t afford to blow up a engine, I scrape by just to even be able to build one, thank you for keeping us informed and the educational and informative videos, I appreciate you much more than you will ever know
I just built a 91 360LA to put in my 92 w250. I put a comp cams crs 262HR-12 camshaft in it. .450/.480 lift 262/264 duration 112° lobe seperation 108 int centerline with 4° advance. It came with the reccomended springs. But I am doing something I never would have done 20 years ago on a new build. I am reusing the old roller lifters. They appear to be good, they all stayed pumped up even though the engine sat unused for several months. (I did take them apart and clean them) This is not a "race" engine, it is for my daily use pickup, (rarely ever sees 4000 rpm) It's just unfortunate that I feel more comfortable using 32 year old used parts, rather than brand new off the shelf parts. 🙄 (Edit to add) I am currently building an engine run/test stand, just to make sure the dang thing holds together BEFORE I pull the old tired but still running engine out. Again probably something I would not have gone through the trouble of doing 20 years ago.
My Vintage Iron is a great channel! been watching him longer than UTG (because he started earlier lol) and was my thoughts on this as well. It has nothing to do with where the Cam was made either. The US Labor Market is GONE! I'm sorry to say it, but in order for the MADE IN THE USA label to be put on it, that company has to cut costs to stay competitive, so they hire unskilled labor from the USA to do this stuff now. You can't go off a label anymore, you have to CHECK EVERYTHING.
Buy from summit, I had a comp failure. Called comp and they said too bad. Called summit, 10 minutes later the lady on the phone had a new cam, lifters, and oil in a box getting shipped. No money out of pocket. That cam lasted 4000 miles and did the same. Went roller and got my money back
I agree with you about checking things. I almost never use an off the shelf cam, they are frequently custom grinds from very high quality cam companies, so I have no issues with lobe taper. If I used off the shelf, or mass produced cams I would check every lobe carefully. The problems with hydraulic flat tappet lifter quality cannot be overstated. There is one 1 company left, of the original 4, making hydraulic flat tappet lifters in the USA. And they are excellent, as well as expensive. The imported lifters that have flooded the market range from passable to awful. Some big cam companies and aftermarket parts suppliers are perfectly fine with selling them. It's really a joke, but people keep buying this crap. Ask where your lifters came from, if the supplier can't or won't tell you, don't buy them. Insist on the best lifters possible. Here's a hint, if the lifters are new, and under $8-9 per lifter, they are probably imported and should be checked very carefully. Or, not used. You left out a very important point in your video. The lifter bore. The fit of the lifter in the bore is critical. Wear, block cleaning methods, and goofy lifters can all add up to bad lifter to bore clearance. Many blocks are thermal cleaned and shot blasted, this can raise a bur on the lifter bore preventing the lifter from spinning. I ball broach all the lifter bores. It's fast, perfectly sizes the bores, and leaves a super finish. The lifters fit extremely well after ball broaching the bores. Bonus, if the ball broach falls through the bore, you know it's out of spec and must be corrected. I really hope the BS about oils stops. It isn't helping anyone address the real problems. Thanks for the video.
This is one of the most important issues we've faced. It should be talked about 24/7 till something is done. 2000$ roller set ups just aren't feasible. But now I got a brand new build that's been on the stand for a few months that I am scared to death about.
If your doing a roller cam you are in better shape to succeed. I have been fighting to get good roller lifters. 4 different sets and I still have a bad lifter. I have been told use Johnsen lifters only.
@@brianf8621 that's why I'm hesitant to go roller $1000 and it still might be shit. I mean the first roller tony did on the channel had bad rollers and for $600 a set it's bullshit. Also I have a 440 so to go solid roller it needs adjustable rockers so it would be almost 2k just for a stupid cam.
Benjamin pendley. Proper break in with plenty of zinc for at least 500 miles. Hold 2300 rpm for the first 30 minutes and do not let it idle during that 30 min.
The Chevrolet small block was notorious for eating cams back in the 60s. I think it was more do to certain crappy oils back then and such as Quaker State and/or lack of maintenance that would form sludge in the engine and block oil passages.
Now that you mentioned it . I had 2 wipe out cams on my last rebuild.. the third time that I have fully clean and rebuild i went with hydraulic roller. Those cams where both comp cams and I had followed the procedure with the zinc additive and break in spring . Probably bad machining , we used to skip the break in period few years ago with no issues
I used a Comp cam in a 396 Chevy back in the 90s, wasnt long before it failed. I have never bought a Comp cam since. Ive used Crower and Lunati, and never had a problem.
@@yurimodin7333 I'm not sure yet Gonna pull it and tear it down to be sure I just did the motor new rods pistions fresh bore crank I'm thinking I'll have to do bearing at the least and hot tank to be sure no metal going with a Howard's roller no more comp cams for me
Good information. We have had so many camshafts fail that we have stopped installing flat tappet camshafts in our customers cars. We actually have started insisting that we install roller cams. We have also started explaining the problems we have had and explaining the advantages of upgrading. You are correct it is not a absolute need to go to roller cams but as a business, by the time we get a cam , measure , return , and do this again with another manufacturer it’s not worth it for our business to spend all this extra time. Usually after discussing the benefits of a roller cam the customers agree and leave with a properly running engine that is actually a little more fun . ( we work with a lot of customers that want a nice rumble so we recommend a thumper roller cam. The customers always love the cams .
Most cams nowadays are ground flat as in a roller cams. Most motorcycles rockers ride right on the cam. Not many American V8's in China. They are used to making flat cam lobes, why should it be any different for someone asking for them to make a V8 cam. Unless someone specifically asks them to add a taper to the dimensions of the lobe, I doubt they would do it. I'm willing to bet that taper was lost in translation with the dimensions of the cam as everything else doesn't use taper
My brothers and I have put together several engines that had cam failures. Even with perfect break in procedures they still failed. 2 were caught before they got bad, a couple others completely wiped out multiple lobes. We never really checked the taper on the cam, just the crown on the lifters before installation. I will be sure to check the lobe taper from now on.
@@Texasmule you'll know if any lobes are going flat, it will start to misfire. If you take off the valve covers, the flat lobes will barely move the rocker arms. It's best to completely inspect and clean the whole engine if there's a cam failure. The metal will be everywhere.
Sometimes individual rockers in the valvetrain will start to make more noise than usual too. If you set your lash correctly, they'll feel loose again because the cam lobe has gotten shorter and now they're out of adjustment. This happened to me recently on a GM engine on a run stand. Once you suspect the cam has begun to fail, try rotating the engine over with the starter or by hand to watch each rocker move, go by the firing order and watch each one. If any seem to be moving less, that's an indicator. After that the only other thing to try is visual inspection. Then taking a sample of main and connecting rod bearings, which unfortunately necessitates pan removal.
I think I remember a GM soft cam epidemic in the early 1980's. It would usually wear the fuel cam lobe and the car would gradually start running rougher and rougher.
I learned the "no taper" lobe the hard way...over the last 10 engines I've built I've had three cams go flat,I racked my brain and from the process of elimination I came up with the same theory...great video and thanks for getting the word out.
Literally used and old used 360 cam in my 318 bc I was worried about spending money on a junk cam and couldn't buy a roller so this helps alot I appreciate the info
Uncle Tony, there are other things that weigh in to cause the failure. The lobes of a camshaft are usually not in the same centerline as the lifter. The taper must be ground the proper direction to meet the lifter off center to make it rotate.
I remember those bad cams in the 70's I was working at a chevy dealer in NJ and we swapped the engines out with brand new target motors under warranty.
for this very reason I avoid non roller engines, I just can't chance it so I hunted down a TBI 350 chevy and a Vortec 350 for my projects since they are both roller cam blocks. Yeah you can retrofit but that's expensive(especially considering small blocks are out there with rollers like I found). I would retrofit a big block since they were all mostly flat tappet from the factory.
My son and I took your advice from a previous video and bought 80’s era nos lifters for his recent 289 build. All of the “new” ones we bought -from reputable suppliers- had either little to no crown at all and some were actually slightly concave. I can’t thank you enough for passing along your knowledge and experience. I have little doubt that had we used any of those “new” lifters, his first experience in the hobby would likely have been his last.
I had a Comp cam that went bad about 9 months after I installed it. It really was an issue with the roller on a lifter (also purchased from Comp). I purchased the replacement cam & lifter set, sent the defective parts to them for them to inspect, & had a refund back into my bank account within a month. I think it was really in a couple weeks, but not certain since it was a few years ago. I was super happy with the customer care. I don't recall what they required for info, but I started out calling them & followed their procedure list. It wasn't too hard as I recall.
I had a cam failure one time and what an expensive mess. I have had a fear of another bad cam ever since. My Jetfire I used an NOS cam and lifters and had zero problem with them.
Just ran into this problem myself. Couldn’t understand what was wrong turns out they were made wrong. I love seeing your honesty. Thank you for what you do.
You mentioned lifter bleed down, I have that with a set of Comp short travel lifters. They were put in after the same problem with Comp HE lifters. They were put in after a set of Highlift Johnson lifters didn’t pass oil through to some of the rockers and let a continuous stream of oil through to others! I took the Johnson lifters back to the supplier who blamed trash in the engine. I made him pull apart a new lifter in front of me, he found trash in the new lifter! Now I only use genuine GM lifters on Chevy and Howard’s lifters on Fords and have had Zero problems.
As as someone who needs to build 3 engines right now and is absolutely terrified to do so because of this is issue I can't say you are beating this topic to death
T he Car Wizzard will not even work on classic cars anymore because of the cam/lifter failures. Also it is becoming very difficult to get parts for some classic cars.
I've been a machinist for 17 years. I was taught the trade the old way by old timers and let me tell ya. The way modern businesses hire employees is 90% of the problem. None of them want to train anyone. So they contact a recruiter service, which is likely just someone sitting at home forwarding resumes they found on indeed. You can put ANYTHING on a resume. So they bring in people that stare at machines like they're just seeing their first piece of p@$$y. Clearly never ran one or even seen one. But then we are stuck with them until they quit two weeks later. It's a nightmare and everyone better get used to it. Bc it's the way the "economy" runs now. Sadly.
Lol I had a 77 Malibu wagon I bought cheap for a winter beater. 305 with a round cam. I put a used cam & lifters in it. Out of a junk yard 350. I worked great. I drove that beast 3 winters. Before I sold it. Still running good.
I read somewhere many decades ago that lifters were ground on a 22 ft.(sorry I cannot remember the exact figure anymore, but I do remember it being 20 something) radius
Back in 1983-4, I was taking a course called Production, which was part of my Bachelor in Business Administration. On one of our visits to different companies, one was the GM Engine plant in St Catherine’s. We walked the line, visited the dyno rooms (3 if I remember) forge plant and piston casting line, etc. Fascinating stuff. At the end of the engine line, all the engines are run on stands using Natural Gas and the carburetor, timing were set up, and all the vitals were checked. Run time was about 5 minutes or less if my memory is right. These engines were not dressed, ie no accessories, once done they were drained of the temporary fluids, a oil filter installed, removed from the stand and crated for shipment to the required plants. What is interesting is the engine was only run for a very short time, put into a vehicle and sold to the customer, who would run their new purchase and likely do a first service within the 2500 miles or so, with no special treatment for camshaft break in. I know that factory fill included a can of EOS additive for break in. This was told to us by the dyno room staff. Makes one think about how things were then without much crying and screaming customers about flattened cams. Today with rollers used, things are a lot different! On the few engines I have done, I had no issues with cam and lifters as I used the standard method as seen on this channel.
Here's one for ya. The Wright aircraft company had developed an aircraft engine that was supposed to be more fuel efficient back in the twenties. Charles Lindbergh selected this engine for his plane. These engines were assembled run in and then disassembled by the same technician and the parts were inspected and if ok the engine was reassembled. The technician that was assigned this engine was disappointed as he wanted the assignment of assembling the engine for Admiral Richard Byrd, but he got this unknown character named Lindbergh. The rest is history. I viewed this on History Detectives on PBS some years ago. It can probably be found on the PBS site. Now that's quality control. Of course, if your engine failed on your airplane, it was not just pulling off onto the side of the road either.🥸
I tend to bet many of these cams fail is because people are not adding a zinc additive, and it is a must since modern oils have very little zinc in them today because they ruin the cats. Which is another reason modern engines use roller lifters and rockers. I still add some zinc even in my stock roller cam engine. I'm sure bad parts is another problem, along with valve springs being way overboard on pressure.
I recently purchased a cam and set of notched lifters for my Big Block Ford using Super Cobra Jet heads. The newer ones that Ford Motorsports is selling, not the older ones. I was advised to use Driven Assembly grease (a tube was included with my cam) it used to go by the name Gibbs assembly grease. And also advised to remover the inner springs on my heads when doing the break-in. Afterwards I can reinstall the inner springs. Also recommended was Driven break-in oil. I'm gnna follow their procedures and report back my results.... Whenever I get it all put together, but I hope some of these instructions are helpful to someone... Oh do research on getting notched lifters!!! Worthwhile!!!
I agree that this subject can't be discussed enough. Just put together a AMC 304 for my old CJ5, all balance and blueprinted. Checking everything and will be keeping my fingers crossed it all goes well on the break in.
Tony I have built 6 this year no problem but I use quality parts and inspect them very well, my break in process is very elaborate . Lite spring's proper lube , proper lifter taper, run in very lite spring pressure . And have had to have lifters refaced .
Thanks Uncle Tony, Always check! I had two hydraulic, flat tappet cams of the same part number with issues. The first was marked wrong and I found that out when checking event timing on the engine stand. The second, I missed, wiped two lobes during break in. It turned out to be a “flat grind” instead of taper just like Dan’s from D&D Speed shop!
Another thing to check on a flat tappet is the distributor drive gear on the new cam. Bought a voo doo cam years ago that ate the dizzy gear on the distributor and went flat as well. The tolerances were checked between dizzy gears and were in spec. before assembly. Called Holley about this and their answer was didn't you burnish the cam gear before installing, well no never have had to do that ever. They said take a wire brush to cam gear next time before install, put the onus on me. Lost 4 grand on that build
I knew a engine builder who back in the 80's who put cam buttons on all flat tappet lifter cams he said it was good insurance against cam and lifter failure. Here we are all these years later still the same problem. Everyone said back then and still today you don't need to do that. Well it's time to wake up. Also use a good oil zddp content or additive.
Great comments, you've been all over this ongoing problem with cam break in. It's a real thing, you're not exaggerating the issue in the slightest. I know people who are very sharp and experienced who are having this issue. Btw, have you looked at the channel @AutoRestoMod? You're not a Ford guy, this is a Ford-based channel where the guys look like kindred spirits. They're garage-based and into muscle car-era stuff just like you. They've been putting out good comments for years and would really like to get over the 100K subscriber mark.
I remember the early 80s Chevy cam issues very well. I also remember, in the late 80s, GM also warranteed quite a few short blocks, especially in pickups, due to casting flaws in the block itself.
@@jesse75 No, I'm talking about original engines in brand new vehicles. I personally know 3 people that purchased new trucks in 1988 and 89 with 350 (5.7L) engines and all 3 had the short blocks replaced under warranty within the first 6 months because of cracked blocks. I've heard about many others but, as I said, I know 3 personally.
WOW! Have times have changed! when I built my solid lifter SBC in 1981, there were no issues with any components. 41 years later she is still running strong. Other than valve lash maintenance with good ZDDP oil she is happy. Years ago, I stocked like a hoarded and glad I did on parts. Seeing all these horror stories now is scary. I am old school like you with dual points and all old school 80"s parts. At least when China drops that EMD on us my old school Camaro will still start!
I've used 5 solid flat tappet cams in the last 3 years no issue from those but I've checked them all out. And for all of my race builds it's solid roller all the way ,I have had bad luck with all the hydraulic cams I've used . Got me thinking about why the solids didn't have any issues
My first job was cleaning parts in my stepdad's shop in1983. We were doing cam swaps all the time. It was an epidemic! I believe the addition over overdrive transmissions also played a factor. The engines weren't turning enough rpm at speed to splash an adequate amount of oil onto the camshafts.
Yes sir I viewed that video from My Vintage Iron, and I do remember the soft cam issue from General Motors back in the eighties. We have so many variables in this camshaft debate and it is hard to pin down the culprit but it does make sense to check the taper on the lobes and the crown on the lifter. Of course when a remanufactured engine is first cranked up if those lifters are not spinning in the lifter bores and the push rods are not spinning then that is an indication of a problem. Also in the DD Speed shop fiasco Dan had to readjust those valves as they were loose and actually the damage had already been done. It is very disappointing to go through the process of assembling an engine and to have this failure. I have an old auto repair manual (Glenns from 1965, that covers all major auto repairs in depth, and the basics are still true today with the exception of the computer controlled vehicles). Under engine rebuilding it states that a freshly rebuilt engine should be run in at a higher RPM for initial starting in order for the parts to receive sufficient oiling and break in. I was taught to run in the engine this way and of course the cam grinder I used way back in the seventies recommended this procedure and he also provided the GM camshaft additive that one should use on GM high performance camshafts, and it was also recommended at each oil change. We had issues with camshaft failures naturally and it generally concerned poor break in procedures, but there are so many variables here that it is hard to pin the cause down. i will agree with My Vintage Iron that just going to rollers especially solid rollers is best for high performance camshafts and those engines that have higher pressure valve springs as well. The cost of an engine failure and of course an engine failure comeback is not worth it. Appreciate your video.🥸
Can I add a posit to the conversation?? Due to the newer oils that aren't really cleaning the inside of the engines and the higher temperatures they are running at it does leave more sludge and a hard coat of varnish inside the engines. When cleaning the inside of the engines even tho we do scrub out the oil passages and lifter bores, there are areas that we can't reach with brushes and even a hot tank will loosen up the places we can't get to, is there a possibility that there is still varnish or gack that's still in the block no matter how we clean them? Here's my thoughts, the tolerance for the lifter to spin is a very tight tolerance, once the fresh engine is fired up, then gets up to temp, if there's anything that was still in the engine, the fresh hot oil will loosen it up. The lifter bore is the tightest tolerance so there is where anything will be cought. Even fine material that gets by the filter will cause a lifter to stick, stop rotating, and there's your camshaft failure.. This is just a thought for all consideration, thank you for your time... Edit... Would possibly giving the lifter bores a quick touch up with a hone to help ensure there is plenty of clearance for the lifter to spin and not get cought up and stick??
Thanks for this, I've got a cam I'm installing right now, it was hard to get with all the supply shortages. It's nice to know that it's something we can check first
I am 76 and 2 months out of an ICU. My cam went flat. I am now on my 4th attempt. First I totally agree with the seeming fact that quality control seems to not exist anymore. I have watched so many videos on just this subject trying to find an answer. One video at the end talked about a Diamond Like Coating (DLC). It is almost as hard as a diamond and because it is made out of carbon with a plasma application process it is also super slippery. Summit Racing has been the best through this total nightmare caused by trash parts. I had a new Comp Cam and lifters from Summit when I watched this video. They stated that Comp Cams had sent these lifters out for an independent analysis. No matter how fast, or how much spring pressure they put on the spintron it did not care. They abused it on break in and it did not care. I waited an extra week to put the cam in to make sure I put it in with the DLC lifters. Summit agreed to send me the DLC lifters and I was to send back the new, in the unopened box, standard lifters. DLC is only about $15.00 more. Uncle Tony research this and do a show on these lifters. They are new. I cannot believe the difference. I was burning out changing cams and lifters and then being without transportation. Now I am waiting for a new radiator, which I have to modify as I drive a 1969 Chevy van with about 1,500,000 miles on it. Then bullet proof again. After all that radiator is about 35 years old and lots of miles and abuse. I have a 4 bolt main 350 with ARP main studs and head bolts. It has 2.02, 1.64 stainless valves, springs for this lift of cam put in with a special dial indicator for proper spring height, full roller rockers, screw in studs, guide plates, and chrome moly pushrods. When on it runs real good, when not on it is trash. Spend the money and buy DLC lifters as insurance. After all gaskets and oil can be $100.00.
I worked in a Chevy Dealership "81-"88 and I kept track of pickups the were delivered in the winter with there chokes way to tight and flooding the engines with fuel , we where not allowed to change the oil , just spark plugs and a choke adjustment and they would be 1/2 litre over full of oil , fuel Yes !! All of them lost cams!
I just put a new topend on my ford 302 windsor (first time going this far into an engine) broke in flat tappet cam (Comp xtreme energy cam with Comp magnum lifters) in this past weekend i drop the oil and checked the filter today with just a small bit of glitter in the bottom of the oil filter housing nothing in the element. Ive been watching your videos and measured every lobe and checked every lifter with a straight edge. I thank you for sharing your knowledge to give guys like me the confidence and knowledge to help insure we dont destroy an engine. 👍👍🍻
I’ve had two cam failures so far this year. So on my spare small block Buick I’m going to run a 30 year old, new in box, melling stock camshaft. Yes the performance will suck but I need my daily driver to freaking work.
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Bad machining should not be an excuse for bad parts getting to the consumer. Most machine shops have an inspection dept. that checks dimensions and hardness before they release to production. sounds like the companies are purposely shipping bad parts. I have been a machinist for over 25 years and there is no excuse for those parts making it out the door with bad dimensions.
As a machinist of 17 years, I concur
Well stated jg.
I'm finding more and more companies are not checking the parts b4 they ship.
Just spend more and get a Made in USA cam and kit....🔧
or simply bad quality control and these bad ones slip out
Thanks! for the plug It actually means allot coming from you! I have said on many occasions that Uncle Tony has forgotten more about Mopar's that I ever knew, Subed to your channel years ago.
just a side note something I did not mention in my video, but I should have,
there is also the possibility the lifters bottoms are not 90 degrees to the lifter body, a fellow machinist friend of mine pointed this out I haven't really figured out how to check this since the bottoms are a convex radius but I'm working on it
Every side of a sphere is the same. If it is ground correctly I see no way the radius can’t come out right. Now I do see where it would be possible to put the sphere off center and that very well could be the case if they are using a mill to create the radius on a clamped non rotating lifter. In the past the radius was ground individually on a rotating lifter if it was off center you either wound up with a flat in the center or it was ground right.
Lower tech/least space [since expensive optical measuring projectors oem's use are not a small business investment typically]... an A grade 12"x12" granite and a stand with test indicator [Starrett 708BCZ or equivalent with 0.0001" gradations]. Move [upside down] lifter, check side to side verifying crown and symmetry. Rotate 120 degrees and recheck 2x if there's any concern of consistency. A straight edge might be helpful as a guide/keeping indiator point over midline of lifter being checked. Off axis crown work will reveal itself. Like your channel btw: learned a few things, which is always good. I still run solid/flat tappets because... well, I'm hard headed like that.
This quality issue is across all industries. Im an old toolmaker who was taught in an apprentice/ journeyman type situation. Everything we sent out of the shop was treated as if we were buying it ourselves. Recently we ordered some drill rod blanks to make some custom tooling. We generally have a 10- 15% inspection rate for incoming raw material. I personally grabbed 1 shank out of the 13 that we received and it checked perfect. When I went to braze up all 13 tools only 1 fit in the brazing fixture. Due to the suppliers lack of quality of finished product we now have to inspect all incoming product from that vender 100%. Problem is now that 13 piece order has turned into 200 to 500 piece orders that we have to spend more time QC’ing at a 100% rate in order to keep OUR standards consistent.
Did you ink anything ?
Do any of the GM crate 350 engines suffer from these camshaft and lifter issues?
Been subscribed to Myvintagiron7512 for like 7 years now. Hes a straight shooter and a master engine builder.
Agreed.
He deserves about 100x the subscribers he has. The guy has 100 casting numbers memorized.
Agreed
thanks , you cannot say enough about this , seen to many failures due to bad cams and or lifters , no excuse for this I've had flat tappet engines go 700,000 miles with no problems back in the day , with the machining "quality " available today there are no excuses for this . the plan is to frustrate us into going erectric
I got a cam from Summit and found defects in it, wasn't ground right. They told me to keep it and sent me a new one for free. Before it goes in the engine is definitely the time to do it. It was my first build, inspired by UT's ultimate daily driver series, and luckily I had listened to his advice on checking every single part.
What brand camshaft was it?
How did you check it for defects?
Took my comp cam to a local very good cam shop. Brand new outta the box it was bent. I paid the money to repair it and summit refunded me my extra cost for the build. On quality defects.
Summit gets Melling cams
Summit service is great, received a set of defective Comp roller lifters (retaining rings had all fallen out in the box!) after sending them some pics and proof of returned shipping, they sent out a replacement set.
I remember, back in the late 1970's, I ordered a Boss 351 camshaft from Ford.
The Ford Dealer Used UPS to ship the camshaft, UPS broke the first camshaft into 3 pieces. UPS broke the second camshaft in half. Dealer use another company, and I finally got a one piece camshaft.
So.... you can lose a camshaft, before you get it.
My guess is the move to CNC machines with "button pushers" operating them for crowning lifters/grinding cams. With a manual dial indicator the machinist(not button pusher) has to be on the ball while grinding those parts. QC checks are obviously not happening.
Sure sounds like a roller cam flat across grind on a lobe that needs taper.
the engineered process sucks if button pushers can't do the job. you have to engineer the process to who do it and with what.
it's easy to make a cad(/cam) file and not take into account what machine is going to make it and what it can do and to what. the end product looks like it should be to the eye but maybe the important detail got lost on when making the toolpath or when the machine was executing the toolpath.
anyway ultimately it's always the companys fault.
@@lasskinn474 we are talking about .003 and no one doing post machining checks
Thanks, saved me some pecking
You can have button pushers no problem, as long as the programs are good to go and the parts are properly checked before packing.
There used to be a cam manufacturer called wolverine and they sold cams called blue racer. They were advertised as having more taper and wouldn't go flat.
I have a wolverine cam in my 350 sbc,,,,,never a problem.
I had one back in the day. Never broke it in properly and never had a problem
@@tomhurley974 i think they are gone now
PRetty sure comp bought them yrs ago
No problem what do ever using Wolverine....same with Ameri-Cam also . Not top shelf products but they were good!
I have to wonder if in the process of changing over from grinding roller cams to flat tappet cams, the operator isn't setting the taper on the grinder.
My first thought as well.
It's fun to think about that somewhere out there, there's some unsupervised grinder operator just grinding nothing but flat cams and wiping out engines across the country
@@lolatmyage That's funny. But there's more than one guy or gal, but the first guy trained the next guy (or gal), just push these buttons. See ya!
@@bartsarton2212 After so much turnover, I wouldn't be surprised to find operators who are completely self taught on their machine with no training whatsoever. Working like that, every day is a learning experience 😂
Glad MyVintageIron gets some love. Been following him for years now.
Hopefully he will get more subscribers now. He deserves it. The flow bench videos are very valuable.
@@michael931 I agree.
Still have my original 252/252 cam, put off the cam change job for quite a while till this cam epidemic has been sorted. This video gives me pointers on what I should be inspecting. Thanks Tony.
Dont forget the importance of lobe to lifter centerline offset, if you dont have offset it will fail no matter how good anything else is.
I seen that video from my vintage Iron 7512, he found the real reason for cam failure
Install the cam, put a little paint mark on each lifter, install lifter, spin the cam, watch lifters for spinning, the ones that don't spin replace.
Good on ya uncle Tony
there’s a builder I won’t mention names here in Melbourne Australia when he gets a cam out of the box. He puts it on a lathe looking machine checks it for straightness even if its just a few thou out they straighten it
they check the lobes for taper, and they take brand-new lifters out of the box and machine them with a 2° crown.
When the engine is on the stand, they turn the crank by hand and basically for every one turn of the crank you can see the lifter spin at least one revolution
it’s very pronounced.
That is their fix.
Crow cams?
Absolutely, u nailed it brother, u gotta check everything before u ever put it in an engine. That way the manufacturers can’t say shit about you doing anything to compromise the parts 👍
Despite the economic downturn, I'm so happy😊. I have been earning $ 60,200 returns from my $7,000 investment every 13days.💰
This must be an investment with Gergely Korpos
@Mr Ridgewood it’s a fuckin scam
@@helenjonathan4935 Nobody and I mean nobody believes this.
@Houston Smith scam
I just did a camshaft break in of a Summit 1103 cam for my 350 SBC. I watched & followed a combination of UT's & Myvintageiron's advice on Flat Tappet cams:
1. Get the good lifters (Delphi) with the oil groove in the body of the lifter.(Genuine GM Lifters).
2. Lube the cam & lifters thoroughly with camshaft Assembly lube.
3. Use a High Zinc/ZDDP break-in oil (I used Valvoline VR1 10W30).
4. Make sure each lifter can freely rotate in it's lifter bore.
5. Pre-fill the oil filter with oil and install BEFORE 1st start.
6. Thoroughly pre-lube the engine by using a drill to circulate oil up to each rocker arm BEFORE 1st start.
7. If in doubt, use some more Zinc/ZDDP oil supplement and zinc the snot out of it!!
I put a AMC 360 together earlier this year. I used a bullet racing cam , 15 nos lifters ( made about 13 years ago and new China made lifter from sealed power. 512 lift 1.6 rock ratio . Used OEM springs . Lots of cam break in lube , rotella t4 and Lucas break in additive. I followed your advice for pre filling the carb with gas and set the ignition advanced a bit . Started up pretty quickly and took it to 2000 rpm rite away . Ran for twenty five minutes varying the rpm up and back down to no less than 2000rpm . After the break In period I pulled the intake and inspected the lifters. All lifters showed signs that they were rotating. I put the China lifter in the #1 exhaust bore . The 15 nos lifters showed a perfect wear pattern but the China lifter showed circular groves worn into it and the lifter was flattering out .
I went with a custom FT cam from bullet, all is well, I watched that video and yes, manufacturing defects in machining, not hardness, bullet grinds there cams, they check everything. In my 40 plus years of building engines, I never used light springs to break in a cam, never lost a lobe, had a few lifter plungers go bad, I will not trust an off the shelf cam again.
This doesn't get talked about enough, I run Cams from Isky, Crower and Schneider. Yep, they cost more....because they're done right. Bullet is the same deal, along with a handful of other grinders
Hi Uncle Tony. Great video as always!
On a similar note, a few years ago I was driving for a ride share and my Chevy HHR was nearing 200,000 mi and I needed to replace the lower control arms, shocks, struts, tie rods, front discs/pads, rear drums/ shoes.
I ordered most of these "name brand" parts through Amazon, the rest at a local brick & mortar auto parts retailer.
I got it all together, installed and measured everything
off and was dismayed to find that most of the parts wound up having problems within a couple months or less.
Warped rotors, inferior rubber bushings etc.
Driving was my only income at the time. I couldn't afford to deal with returning parts through Amazon to wherever, and have a defunct car for a long time for a "maybe" outcome.
Shortly thereafter the Pandemic hit and I decided to sell the car and exit the ride-share business.
Where is the accountability, the pride of craftsmanship in today's world!
You are definitely NOT beating this topic to death. This is a major concern for a lot of people. I've wanted to install a new cam and lifters in my 440 for at LEAST the last 2 years, but I totally put those plans on hold waiting for this issue to be resolved. Thank you so much for this video! I finally feel like I know enough about this issue now that I can safely move forward and catch any issues before they happen!
you don't have to wait,just buy one time and buy isky and bleed for the parts and be done with it,i've used their cams and lifters since 1971 and will not use any other,many engines i have assembled,if you are going to waste money on anyting get real cams and lifters,their reputation is on the line,they don't sell junk,piss on the money,who want's to do a job twice
The problem IS NOT GOING TO BE RESOLVED... welcome to modern manufacturing - quality control is in batches! You make a 100 parts and test 5 random ones out of the 100
Working In a bearing plant for 44 years, I have checked a lot of bearings for hardness, that perfect hardness for a bearing was 58 Rockwell hardness, the standard with a + or -- 2 tolerance, this was critical for failure because of the wear, great point, when these lifters and cams were outsourced, and not held to specs, that's where all the problems came from, had an engine built by Doug Herbert, used his cam and lifters and heads, his dad invented the roller cam/lifter, this helped stop valve binding, they sent a build sheet with all the cam specs, and recommended Shell rotella T for the oil after 500 mile break in oil, that was shipped in the engine, thanks Uncle Tony great infro as always.
That's funny, why back in the nineties when the problem first started appearing, a cam grinder here in New Zealand told me the issue was often there was no taper on the lobes. Well, he was before his time.
I started rebuilding SBC, SBF, SBO, SBB, Cadillac, BBC, BBF. Never lost a camshaft. But that was before Cats. Before they removed all the additives from oil 🛢. Now we use roller camshaft.
Measuring before assembly is great advice. You have to. I'd also suggest-as a final test- bluing the cam lobes and lifter faces might help. With the heads on, pushrods in, and everything assembled, turn the motor over several times. It might be apparent if there's an odd pattern in the bluing that there's a problem. Better to find it before running the engine.
yup, if its already assembled that's a very good final check idea.
Also simply look for rotation on all lifters. "Rotating lifter" is probably what the system should be named for that matter, there's nothing flat except the valve tips in a properly functioning flat tappet valve train.
Easy to check crown or taper if you have a dial indicator. Mount the indicator to a flat surface above the lifter and slide the lifter left/right across the diameter. Sholuld see zero at edge and increase to .003 at center. Same with cam lobe, use V blocks on journals. Get as fancy as you want. A lathe, mill etc.
i've built a lot of sb a bb mopars over the decades i have never once wiped a cam used all kinds. back then manufacturers gave a crap about their products not so much any more.
Also, before you put on the intake, install pushrods and set the rockers, record where the c clip is on each lifter. Turn engine over 20 rotations by hand. Verify every lifter rotated else stop don't send it, hope is not a plan
Nice
That's how the best race teams operate; leave nothing to chance.
@@petesmitt It's a good way to succeed at any project, if you check and double check and do your best then the chances of failure are minimal
this is something that should not need to be addressed but i am glad you are informing people .. new parts should not be defective and these days it seems to be the norm
Uncle Tony You aren’t beating this topic to death, this is important information and is most definitely need to know, I’m gonna build a 360 soon for my dodge D250 and I’m scared to even put a new cam in it because I can’t afford to blow up a engine, I scrape by just to even be able to build one, thank you for keeping us informed and the educational and informative videos, I appreciate you much more than you will ever know
I just built a 91 360LA to put in my 92 w250.
I put a comp cams crs 262HR-12 camshaft in it. .450/.480 lift 262/264 duration
112° lobe seperation
108 int centerline with 4° advance.
It came with the reccomended springs.
But I am doing something I never would have done 20 years ago on a new build.
I am reusing the old roller lifters. They appear to be good, they all stayed pumped up even though the engine sat unused for several months.
(I did take them apart and clean them)
This is not a "race" engine, it is for my daily use pickup, (rarely ever sees 4000 rpm)
It's just unfortunate that I feel more comfortable using 32 year old used parts, rather than brand new off the shelf parts.
🙄
(Edit to add)
I am currently building an engine run/test stand, just to make sure the dang thing holds together BEFORE I pull the old tired but still running engine out.
Again probably something I would not have gone through the trouble of doing 20 years ago.
My Vintage Iron is a great channel! been watching him longer than UTG (because he started earlier lol) and was my thoughts on this as well. It has nothing to do with where the Cam was made either. The US Labor Market is GONE! I'm sorry to say it, but in order for the MADE IN THE USA label to be put on it, that company has to cut costs to stay competitive, so they hire unskilled labor from the USA to do this stuff now. You can't go off a label anymore, you have to CHECK EVERYTHING.
Buy from summit, I had a comp failure. Called comp and they said too bad. Called summit, 10 minutes later the lady on the phone had a new cam, lifters, and oil in a box getting shipped. No money out of pocket. That cam lasted 4000 miles and did the same. Went roller and got my money back
I agree with you about checking things. I almost never use an off the shelf cam, they are frequently custom grinds from very high quality cam companies, so I have no issues with lobe taper. If I used off the shelf, or mass produced cams I would check every lobe carefully.
The problems with hydraulic flat tappet lifter quality cannot be overstated. There is one 1 company left, of the original 4, making hydraulic flat tappet lifters in the USA. And they are excellent, as well as expensive. The imported lifters that have flooded the market range from passable to awful. Some big cam companies and aftermarket parts suppliers are perfectly fine with selling them. It's really a joke, but people keep buying this crap. Ask where your lifters came from, if the supplier can't or won't tell you, don't buy them. Insist on the best lifters possible. Here's a hint, if the lifters are new, and under $8-9 per lifter, they are probably imported and should be checked very carefully. Or, not used.
You left out a very important point in your video. The lifter bore. The fit of the lifter in the bore is critical. Wear, block cleaning methods, and goofy lifters can all add up to bad lifter to bore clearance. Many blocks are thermal cleaned and shot blasted, this can raise a bur on the lifter bore preventing the lifter from spinning. I ball broach all the lifter bores. It's fast, perfectly sizes the bores, and leaves a super finish. The lifters fit extremely well after ball broaching the bores. Bonus, if the ball broach falls through the bore, you know it's out of spec and must be corrected.
I really hope the BS about oils stops. It isn't helping anyone address the real problems. Thanks for the video.
This is one of the most important issues we've faced. It should be talked about 24/7 till something is done. 2000$ roller set ups just aren't feasible. But now I got a brand new build that's been on the stand for a few months that I am scared to death about.
Get out yer micrometer and take it to the store and mic your cam and lifters!!
$2000 ??? huh ??? like $900 lifter's cam pushrods
If your doing a roller cam you are in better shape to succeed.
I have been fighting to get good roller lifters. 4 different sets and I still have a bad lifter. I have been told use Johnsen lifters only.
@@brianf8621 that's why I'm hesitant to go roller $1000 and it still might be shit. I mean the first roller tony did on the channel had bad rollers and for $600 a set it's bullshit. Also I have a 440 so to go solid roller it needs adjustable rockers so it would be almost 2k just for a stupid cam.
Benjamin pendley. Proper break in with plenty of zinc for at least 500 miles. Hold 2300 rpm for the first 30 minutes and do not let it idle during that 30 min.
The Chevrolet small block was notorious for eating cams back in the 60s. I think it was more do to certain crappy oils back then and such as Quaker State and/or lack of maintenance that would form sludge in the engine and block oil passages.
As always, thank you for the info. At this time I am checking parts for my build. So
far I have 2 sets of new hydraulic lifters that are JUNK.
Beat the story like it owes you money Tone, any new information is well appreciated.
Now that you mentioned it . I had 2 wipe out cams on my last rebuild.. the third time that I have fully clean and rebuild i went with hydraulic roller. Those cams where both comp cams and I had followed the procedure with the zinc additive and break in spring . Probably bad machining , we used to skip the break in period few years ago with no issues
Lost a comp cam in my sbc less that 1000 miles now I'm back to square one rebuilding it again roller is in my future no more flat tappets for me
I used a Comp cam in a 396 Chevy back in the 90s, wasnt long before it failed.
I have never bought a Comp cam since.
Ive used Crower and Lunati, and never had a problem.
sorry for your loss......did it toast the rest of the motor?
@@yurimodin7333 On mine, the oil looked like metallic paint. Had to be flushed--several times.
@@yurimodin7333 I'm not sure yet
Gonna pull it and tear it down to be sure I just did the motor new rods pistions fresh bore crank I'm thinking I'll have to do bearing at the least and hot tank to be sure no metal going with a Howard's roller no more comp cams for me
Good information. We have had so many camshafts fail that we have stopped installing flat tappet camshafts in our customers cars. We actually have started insisting that we install roller cams. We have also started explaining the problems we have had and explaining the advantages of upgrading. You are correct it is not a absolute need to go to roller cams but as a business, by the time we get a cam , measure , return , and do this again with another manufacturer it’s not worth it for our business to spend all this extra time. Usually after discussing the benefits of a roller cam the customers agree and leave with a properly running engine that is actually a little more fun . ( we work with a lot of customers that want a nice rumble so we recommend a thumper roller cam. The customers always love the cams .
Most cams nowadays are ground flat as in a roller cams. Most motorcycles rockers ride right on the cam. Not many American V8's in China. They are used to making flat cam lobes, why should it be any different for someone asking for them to make a V8 cam. Unless someone specifically asks them to add a taper to the dimensions of the lobe, I doubt they would do it. I'm willing to bet that taper was lost in translation with the dimensions of the cam as everything else doesn't use taper
My brothers and I have put together several engines that had cam failures. Even with perfect break in procedures they still failed. 2 were caught before they got bad, a couple others completely wiped out multiple lobes. We never really checked the taper on the cam, just the crown on the lifters before installation. I will be sure to check the lobe taper from now on.
Gonna do my first cam break in, what happens when a cam fails? Do I have to get new heads and everything or just clean them?
Please and thank you
@@Texasmule you'll know if any lobes are going flat, it will start to misfire. If you take off the valve covers, the flat lobes will barely move the rocker arms. It's best to completely inspect and clean the whole engine if there's a cam failure. The metal will be everywhere.
Sometimes individual rockers in the valvetrain will start to make more noise than usual too. If you set your lash correctly, they'll feel loose again because the cam lobe has gotten shorter and now they're out of adjustment. This happened to me recently on a GM engine on a run stand.
Once you suspect the cam has begun to fail, try rotating the engine over with the starter or by hand to watch each rocker move, go by the firing order and watch each one. If any seem to be moving less, that's an indicator. After that the only other thing to try is visual inspection. Then taking a sample of main and connecting rod bearings, which unfortunately necessitates pan removal.
@@mwagner_87 thanks, I was worried if it would ruin everything and I would have to get new heads when they're brand new
@@vidarodinsson I don't mind taking everything off but aslong as it doesn't physically destroy parts I can clean it all day
If the cam is weak so is the engine
I've used Rockwells since high school.
Metallurgy uses Rockwells in the process.
I think I remember a GM soft cam epidemic in the early 1980's. It would usually wear the fuel cam lobe and the car would gradually start running rougher and rougher.
I worked for a chevy dealer in 85 and changed a lot of bad cams seemed like more 305 if memory serves me
Glad I chose the 84 crown Victoria. Consumers report survey showed the Victoria to have fewer problems.
I learned the "no taper" lobe the hard way...over the last 10 engines I've built I've had three cams go flat,I racked my brain and from the process of elimination I came up with the same theory...great video and thanks for getting the word out.
Literally used and old used 360 cam in my 318 bc I was worried about spending money on a junk cam and couldn't buy a roller so this helps alot I appreciate the info
It's a sad state of affairs when the customer has to do their own quality control on purchased parts.
Chose a roller for my first build. Didn't wanna risk the flat tappet failing, and discouraging me from building more engines
Uncle Tony, there are other things that weigh in to cause the failure. The lobes of a camshaft are usually not in the same centerline as the lifter. The taper must be ground the proper direction to meet the lifter off center to make it rotate.
I remember those bad cams in the 70's I was working at a chevy dealer in NJ and we swapped the engines out with brand new target motors under warranty.
7512 was one of my instructors, save up for a roller cam. Flat tappet cams not worth the risk
for this very reason I avoid non roller engines, I just can't chance it so I hunted down a TBI 350 chevy and a Vortec 350 for my projects since they are both roller cam blocks. Yeah you can retrofit but that's expensive(especially considering small blocks are out there with rollers like I found). I would retrofit a big block since they were all mostly flat tappet from the factory.
Is he as fantastic in person as a teacher? I am guessing yes.
Glad you found that VID! I watched it last night.
My son and I took your advice from a previous video and bought 80’s era nos lifters for his recent 289 build. All of the “new” ones we bought -from reputable suppliers- had either little to no crown at all and some were actually slightly concave. I can’t thank you enough for passing along your knowledge and experience. I have little doubt that had we used any of those “new” lifters, his first experience in the hobby would likely have been his last.
Someone put China lifters in NOS Box and kept the good ones
I had a Comp cam that went bad about 9 months after I installed it. It really was an issue with the roller on a lifter (also purchased from Comp). I purchased the replacement cam & lifter set, sent the defective parts to them for them to inspect, & had a refund back into my bank account within a month. I think it was really in a couple weeks, but not certain since it was a few years ago. I was super happy with the customer care. I don't recall what they required for info, but I started out calling them & followed their procedure list. It wasn't too hard as I recall.
I didn't think you could create click bait about camshafts but here I am. Thanks for enlightening us Tony.
Also recommend delta cams channel. He’s a cam grinder out of Tacoma Washington
I had a cam failure one time and what an expensive mess. I have had a fear of another bad cam ever since. My Jetfire I used an NOS cam and lifters and had zero problem with them.
Finally i know what to do before put My New Cam in. Thank you!
Just ran into this problem myself. Couldn’t understand what was wrong turns out they were made wrong. I love seeing your honesty. Thank you for what you do.
Cam manufacturer?
You mentioned lifter bleed down, I have that with a set of Comp short travel lifters. They were put in after the same problem with Comp HE lifters. They were put in after a set of Highlift Johnson lifters didn’t pass oil through to some of the rockers and let a continuous stream of oil through to others! I took the Johnson lifters back to the supplier who blamed trash in the engine.
I made him pull apart a new lifter in front of me, he found trash in the new lifter!
Now I only use genuine GM lifters on Chevy and Howard’s lifters on Fords and have had Zero problems.
As as someone who needs to build 3 engines right now and is absolutely terrified to do so because of this is issue I can't say you are beating this topic to death
Obviously a lack of Quality Control.......thanks for the heads up Tony!....
4:04 just say no to skidmarks, on your lifters and in your drawers 😁
T he Car Wizzard will not even work on classic cars anymore because of the cam/lifter failures. Also it is becoming very difficult to get parts for some classic cars.
Yup. I need to watch the whole video before commenting. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
I love MyVintageIron7512 (and UTG). Great dude with a really practical approach to engine building.
Your darn tootin' Tone. This is very important and I'm glad your beating this dead horse. Much appreciated.
I've been a machinist for 17 years. I was taught the trade the old way by old timers and let me tell ya. The way modern businesses hire employees is 90% of the problem. None of them want to train anyone. So they contact a recruiter service, which is likely just someone sitting at home forwarding resumes they found on indeed. You can put ANYTHING on a resume. So they bring in people that stare at machines like they're just seeing their first piece of p@$$y. Clearly never ran one or even seen one. But then we are stuck with them until they quit two weeks later. It's a nightmare and everyone better get used to it. Bc it's the way the "economy" runs now. Sadly.
Lol I had a 77 Malibu wagon I bought cheap for a winter beater. 305 with a round cam. I put a used cam & lifters in it. Out of a junk yard 350. I worked great. I drove that beast 3 winters. Before I sold it. Still running good.
I read somewhere many decades ago that lifters were ground on a 22 ft.(sorry I cannot remember the exact figure anymore, but I do remember it being 20 something) radius
Back in 1983-4, I was taking a course called Production, which was part of my Bachelor in Business Administration.
On one of our visits to different companies, one was the GM Engine plant in St Catherine’s. We walked the line, visited the dyno rooms (3 if I remember) forge plant and piston casting line, etc. Fascinating stuff.
At the end of the engine line, all the engines are run on stands using Natural Gas and the carburetor, timing were set up, and all the vitals were checked. Run time was about 5 minutes or less if my memory is right. These engines were not dressed, ie no accessories, once done they were drained of the temporary fluids, a oil filter installed, removed from the stand and crated for shipment to the required plants.
What is interesting is the engine was only run for a very short time, put into a vehicle and sold to the customer, who would run their new purchase and likely do a first service within the 2500 miles or so, with no special treatment for camshaft break in. I know that factory fill included a can of EOS additive for break in. This was told to us by the dyno room staff. Makes one think about how things were then without much crying and screaming customers about flattened cams. Today with rollers used, things are a lot different!
On the few engines I have done, I had no issues with cam and lifters as I used the standard method as seen on this channel.
Here's one for ya. The Wright aircraft company had developed an aircraft engine that was supposed to be more fuel efficient back in the twenties. Charles Lindbergh selected this engine for his plane. These engines were assembled run in and then disassembled by the same technician and the parts were inspected and if ok the engine was reassembled. The technician that was assigned this engine was disappointed as he wanted the assignment of assembling the engine for Admiral Richard Byrd, but he got this unknown character named Lindbergh. The rest is history. I viewed this on History Detectives on PBS some years ago. It can probably be found on the PBS site. Now that's quality control. Of course, if your engine failed on your airplane, it was not just pulling off onto the side of the road either.🥸
I tend to bet many of these cams fail is because people are not adding a zinc additive, and it is a must since modern oils have very little zinc in them today because they ruin the cats. Which is another reason modern engines use roller lifters and rockers. I still add some zinc even in my stock roller cam engine. I'm sure bad parts is another problem, along with valve springs being way overboard on pressure.
This is good information, allows a go no go for cam lobs before it even gets out of the box!!
I had a 1979 el Camino with a 305 and a 1979 Malibu wagon 305. Bad cams in both. Cylinder number two in both. Live and learn.
Just broke in a custom dwayne porter solid flat tappet grind from comp cams.
I measured everything, used driven break in oil.
Everything good so far.
I recently purchased a cam and set of notched lifters for my Big Block Ford using Super Cobra Jet heads. The newer ones that Ford Motorsports is selling, not the older ones. I was advised to use Driven Assembly grease (a tube was included with my cam) it used to go by the name Gibbs assembly grease. And also advised to remover the inner springs on my heads when doing the break-in. Afterwards I can reinstall the inner springs. Also recommended was Driven break-in oil. I'm gnna follow their procedures and report back my results.... Whenever I get it all put together, but I hope some of these instructions are helpful to someone... Oh do research on getting notched lifters!!! Worthwhile!!!
I agree that this subject can't be discussed enough. Just put together a AMC 304 for my old CJ5, all balance and blueprinted. Checking everything and will be keeping my fingers crossed it all goes well on the break in.
Take the intake off. Rotate the engine by hand with the spark plugs out. Watch in the lifter bore to see if lifter spins. If so you're good to go.
Tony I have built 6 this year no problem but I use quality parts and inspect them very well, my break in process is very elaborate . Lite spring's proper lube , proper lifter taper, run in very lite spring pressure . And have had to have lifters refaced .
Thanks Uncle Tony, Always check! I had two hydraulic, flat tappet cams of the same part number with issues. The first was marked wrong and I found that out when checking event timing on the engine stand. The second, I missed, wiped two lobes during break in. It turned out to be a “flat grind” instead of taper just like Dan’s from D&D Speed shop!
Another thing to check on a flat tappet is the distributor drive gear on the new cam. Bought a voo doo cam years ago that ate the dizzy gear on the distributor and went flat as well. The tolerances were checked between dizzy gears and were in spec. before assembly. Called Holley about this and their answer was didn't you burnish the cam gear before installing, well no never have had to do that ever. They said take a wire brush to cam gear next time before install, put the onus on me. Lost 4 grand on that build
Ran a melling camshaft in my 429 and thankfully it has been fine.
My buddy back in like 2010 when the flat cam epidemic was at its peak, he had a comp cam eat itself on a BBC on brake in.
Been watching myvintageiron for years nothing beats old school knowledge!
I knew a engine builder who back in the 80's who put cam buttons on all flat tappet lifter cams he said it was good insurance against cam and lifter failure. Here we are all these years later still the same problem. Everyone said back then and still today you don't need to do that. Well it's time to wake up. Also use a good oil zddp content or additive.
Great comments, you've been all over this ongoing problem with cam break in. It's a real thing, you're not exaggerating the issue in the slightest. I know people who are very sharp and experienced who are having this issue.
Btw, have you looked at the channel @AutoRestoMod? You're not a Ford guy, this is a Ford-based channel where the guys look like kindred spirits. They're garage-based and into muscle car-era stuff just like you. They've been putting out good comments for years and would really like to get over the 100K subscriber mark.
I remember the early 80s Chevy cam issues very well. I also remember, in the late 80s, GM also warranteed quite a few short blocks, especially in pickups, due to casting flaws in the block itself.
Cheap target engines.
@@jesse75 No, I'm talking about original engines in brand new vehicles. I personally know 3 people that purchased new trucks in 1988 and 89 with 350 (5.7L) engines and all 3 had the short blocks replaced under warranty within the first 6 months because of cracked blocks. I've heard about many others but, as I said, I know 3 personally.
WOW! Have times have changed! when I built my solid lifter SBC in 1981, there were no issues with any components. 41 years later she is still running strong. Other than valve lash maintenance with good ZDDP oil she is happy. Years ago, I stocked like a hoarded and glad I did on parts. Seeing all these horror stories now is scary. I am old school like you with dual points and all old school 80"s parts. At least when China drops that EMD on us my old school Camaro will still start!
I've used 5 solid flat tappet cams in the last 3 years no issue from those but I've checked them all out. And for all of my race builds it's solid roller all the way ,I have had bad luck with all the hydraulic cams I've used . Got me thinking about why the solids didn't have any issues
My first job was cleaning parts in my stepdad's shop in1983. We were doing cam swaps all the time. It was an epidemic! I believe the addition over overdrive transmissions also played a factor. The engines weren't turning enough rpm at speed to splash an adequate amount of oil onto the camshafts.
Even LS Chevs sold in Australian Holdens have cam and lifter issues now they're around 15 years old.
Yes sir I viewed that video from My Vintage Iron, and I do remember the soft cam issue from General Motors back in the eighties. We have so many variables in this camshaft debate and it is hard to pin down the culprit but it does make sense to check the taper on the lobes and the crown on the lifter. Of course when a remanufactured engine is first cranked up if those lifters are not spinning in the lifter bores and the push rods are not spinning then that is an indication of a problem. Also in the DD Speed shop fiasco Dan had to readjust those valves as they were loose and actually the damage had already been done. It is very disappointing to go through the process of assembling an engine and to have this failure. I have an old auto repair manual (Glenns from 1965, that covers all major auto repairs in depth, and the basics are still true today with the exception of the computer controlled vehicles). Under engine rebuilding it states that a freshly rebuilt engine should be run in at a higher RPM for initial starting in order for the parts to receive sufficient oiling and break in. I was taught to run in the engine this way and of course the cam grinder I used way back in the seventies recommended this procedure and he also provided the GM camshaft additive that one should use on GM high performance camshafts, and it was also recommended at each oil change. We had issues with camshaft failures naturally and it generally concerned poor break in procedures, but there are so many variables here that it is hard to pin the cause down. i will agree with My Vintage Iron that just going to rollers especially solid rollers is best for high performance camshafts and those engines that have higher pressure valve springs as well. The cost of an engine failure and of course an engine failure comeback is not worth it. Appreciate your video.🥸
Can I add a posit to the conversation?? Due to the newer oils that aren't really cleaning the inside of the engines and the higher temperatures they are running at it does leave more sludge and a hard coat of varnish inside the engines. When cleaning the inside of the engines even tho we do scrub out the oil passages and lifter bores, there are areas that we can't reach with brushes and even a hot tank will loosen up the places we can't get to, is there a possibility that there is still varnish or gack that's still in the block no matter how we clean them? Here's my thoughts, the tolerance for the lifter to spin is a very tight tolerance, once the fresh engine is fired up, then gets up to temp, if there's anything that was still in the engine, the fresh hot oil will loosen it up. The lifter bore is the tightest tolerance so there is where anything will be cought. Even fine material that gets by the filter will cause a lifter to stick, stop rotating, and there's your camshaft failure.. This is just a thought for all consideration, thank you for your time...
Edit... Would possibly giving the lifter bores a quick touch up with a hone to help ensure there is plenty of clearance for the lifter to spin and not get cought up and stick??
Thanks for this, I've got a cam I'm installing right now, it was hard to get with all the supply shortages. It's nice to know that it's something we can check first
I am 76 and 2 months out of an ICU. My cam went flat. I am now on my 4th attempt. First I totally agree with the seeming fact that quality control seems to not exist anymore. I have watched so many videos on just this subject trying to find an answer. One video at the end talked about a Diamond Like Coating (DLC). It is almost as hard as a diamond and because it is made out of carbon with a plasma application process it is also super slippery. Summit Racing has been the best through this total nightmare caused by trash parts. I had a new Comp Cam and lifters from Summit when I watched this video. They stated that Comp Cams had sent these lifters out for an independent analysis. No matter how fast, or how much spring pressure they put on the spintron it did not care. They abused it on break in and it did not care. I waited an extra week to put the cam in to make sure I put it in with the DLC lifters. Summit agreed to send me the DLC lifters and I was to send back the new, in the unopened box, standard lifters. DLC is only about $15.00 more. Uncle Tony research this and do a show on these lifters. They are new. I cannot believe the difference. I was burning out changing cams and lifters and then being without transportation. Now I am waiting for a new radiator, which I have to modify as I drive a 1969 Chevy van with about 1,500,000 miles on it. Then bullet proof again. After all that radiator is about 35 years old and lots of miles and abuse. I have a 4 bolt main 350 with ARP main studs and head bolts. It has 2.02, 1.64 stainless valves, springs for this lift of cam put in with a special dial indicator for proper spring height, full roller rockers, screw in studs, guide plates, and chrome moly pushrods. When on it runs real good, when not on it is trash. Spend the money and buy DLC lifters as insurance. After all gaskets and oil can be $100.00.
I worked in a Chevy Dealership "81-"88 and I kept track of pickups the were delivered in the winter with there chokes way to tight and flooding the engines with fuel , we where not allowed to change the oil , just spark plugs and a choke adjustment and they would be 1/2 litre over full of oil , fuel Yes !! All of them lost cams!
Thanks for the info! Cam grinders used to like being know as "power house" cams..but now theyll be known as "most likely to ruin your build"!
I just put a new topend on my ford 302 windsor (first time going this far into an engine) broke in flat tappet cam (Comp xtreme energy cam with Comp magnum lifters) in this past weekend i drop the oil and checked the filter today with just a small bit of glitter in the bottom of the oil filter housing nothing in the element. Ive been watching your videos and measured every lobe and checked every lifter with a straight edge. I thank you for sharing your knowledge to give guys like me the confidence and knowledge to help insure we dont destroy an engine. 👍👍🍻
I’ve had two cam failures so far this year. So on my spare small block Buick I’m going to run a 30 year old, new in box, melling stock camshaft. Yes the performance will suck but I need my daily driver to freaking work.