Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus | Johnathan - England | Atheist Experience 23.29
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- The Atheist Experience 23.29 for July 14, 2019 with Don Baker & Jenna Belk.
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The gospels are the CLAIM! Not the damn evidence
True, as the gospels have no evidence. In fact, they make false claims like others coming out of the tombs when Jesus died. In real life if anyone comes out of a tomb it is because they were dug up.
These guys always use the gospels as the evidence for the gospels.
@@at6686 Haven't they told you? its true because the bible said so! 😂
I always say to them present me your evidence without using your bible?
@Smith’s Forge Gaming Claims are always evidence, just not necessarily good evidence. Claims can be good evidence. If the claim is not extraordinary and there’s no reason to think the maker of the claim is lying or mistaken, then the claim is good evidence. The gospels are not good evidence because they are extraordinary and mere claims from an ancient book are not good evidence since the claims are extraordinary.
you're not going to get to heaven that way
"I WANT THIS TO BE TRUE, SO I WILL IGNORE ANYTHING THAT APPEARS TO CONTRADICT IT."
Yes and this is why they go on believing. Until i strarted to really consider the evidence against the bible's claims
i was a mindless bible believer for many years. Once i was honest with myself and started to listen to what atheist's had to say and checked it out i was quicky a non believer in any religion or supernatural claims.
Being a critical thinking skeptic is the only way to get to the actual truth because you wont accept things until they are proven to be a reality!
"How do you know the story is real?"
"Well in 1 Corinthians...."
I literally facepalmed 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
They cannot grasp the idea that the logic is circular. That they cant leverage as fact the very thing they hope to prove true.
Jonathon is being misleading. There is no evidence from Paul's epistiles that disciples claimed Jesus rose from the dead. Paul never claims such, nor does he ever discuss the contents of his conversations with them. We can perhaps made fairly reasonable inferences that's what they told him, but it's an educated guess and it's not necessarily a fact. The Corinthian creed also isn't testimony, as its a statement of faith.
Lawyer: I have an eye witness!
Judge: Is that witness present?
Lawyer: No he’s been dead for almost 2000 years.
Judge: I see.
Lawyer: Don’t worry I have his sworn statement recorded in this book that was written less than a century after he made the statement.
Judge: Seems legit.
How do you know the book is legit though?
The book says it is.
Ryan Hogarth it’s worse than that. The eye witness died before the book was written and the person who wrote the book never spoke to the eye witness or any of the eye witnesses for that matter. Jesus lived and died and know one wrote anything about any part of his life at the time it supposedly happened. 40-60 years later the accounts of these supposed claims were written, however there are no originals of these writings until 300 years later and they have altered and changed over the last 2000 years. This god wants you to believe in him or your fucked. Some god,some creator of the universe.
Epoch plus5 prove it.
Epoch plus5 still no evidence of that particular god though.
Epoch plus5 you definitely need eyes to have vision. No eyes no vision. However what does that have to do with a god and the evidence for that PARTICULAR god and and old book with lots of CLAIMS and ASSERTIONS and no actual evidence. Please demonstrate what evidence is?
I love how this guy keeps talking about "eye witness testimony" and then when asked what justification he has for asserting there was "eye witness testimony" he simply quotes another book of the bible. Why is it that Christians can't understand the circular reasoning problem of using the bible to assert the truth of the bible?
Lack of understanding of logic and reasoning, indoctrination into a mindset. And, to me, it seems that they actually fear being wrong and thus object to virtually any objective search into the truth of the matter. Just my lifelong observations.
Cognitive dissonance
@@Quinn37 no, I think it is because they are so invested in their beliefs that they cannot bring themselves to admit any flaws.
@@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers That is a piece of cognitive dissonance
@@Quinn37 I'm not sure. I think that many will know they are on shaky ground but can't admit it to themselves. Isn't cognitive dissonance an inability to grasp the reality? I'm ready to stand corrected.
The Bhagavad Gita is older than the Bible and ALSO has claims of eye-witnesses, so?
I know it late but eye witnesses are not reliable at all
@@xytech7432 think we’re with ya on that one ;)
It's so stupid that people believe in specific stories from ancient times which have no evidence and contain unrealistic claims from eye witness accounts... BUT we know they were not eye witnesses..
I'm always blown away by "the Bible is real because it's written in the Bible" claims.
ForAllThe StupidShit you have that also with Muslims.
Why is something true? It’s in the Koran so!! 😳
Circular logic; see - circular logic
@@kyaxara7321 Any religion with a holy book, or really any religion at all. It will always come down to a circular argument.
If there is a god, why do we have to debate this?
ForAllThe StupidShit :- I absolutely agree. Remember the old quote _”If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religion.”_
Sometimes Don's humour is more effective than Matt's razor sharp logic. "Wasn't Wendy an eye witness to Peter Pan?" Love it!
Said another way: Being nice, patient and humorous is better than being an asshole.
The Lost Boys were a witness to Wendy, so, the circular logic is tightening up nicely.
“Are you reading this from somewhere?”
“...No”
Starts the next sentence with ‘moreover’
and pages turning at 9:41 lmao
I agree, but I still think he is the kind of person who would use the word "moreover". :) (Followed by blablabla)
@@kentonbaird1723 which follows rules 1 to 15 inclusive which say, "never ever believe the word of a Christian".
So f'n dishonest
🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
My cousin, a priest, says "the bible is like a person, if you torture it enough you'll get it to say whatevere you want".
He's a Jesuit.
Stop using the Bible to prove the Bible. That's not how any of this works.
Every one says Jesus is for real how, because its in the bible revealed to him,
Mister Itchy But that is all the idiots can do,they have no evidence,so they refer to a book.
Stop using Roman documents to prove Roman history! That's not how any of this works.
@@LogosTheos We don't need to use Roman documents to prove Romans existed. Various cultures that the Romans interacted with wrote all sorts of things about them, their leaders, the military campaigns, and so on. What does the Bible have as verification? Eye witness testimony that is only recorded.....in the Bible itself.
There's a big difference.
@@alextrio3995 That's right you don't, but 3/4 of our knowledge of the Roman Empire comes from writers such as Livy, Polybius, Tacitus, Dio Cassius, and Suetonius. The problem with your OP is that you don't understand how historiography works. ALL historical sources are biased even ones that exist outside the Roman Empire. So to say a Christian source cannot be utilized in historical investigation is simply special pleading and shows a complete lack of understanding of how historians shift through historical date and come to conclusions.
His Cognitive Dissonance is driving him mad...
"We have evidence. We have overwhelming evidence." (never presents evidence)
Must be a Republican!
The caller uses something one of my philosophy professors referred to as the "ten leaky buckets fallacy". The idea is that if you can't transport water in one leaky bucket without the water running out before you arrive at your destination, you can't accomplish the task using ten leaky buckets either. No matter how many bad arguments you have to start with, they will never add up to one good argument.
One good argument is all you need.
Here's one good argument:
Jesus has not made an appearance in two hundred centuries.
Possible reasons:
He changed his mind.
He is dead and can't come back.**
10 leaky buckets, I love it!!!
What if you stack the buckets? Wouldn't it depend on distance then?
@@RossTheNinja depends on the rate of flow
@@JamesRichardWiley
Minor quibble: Would it not be TWENTY centuries? Two hundred centuries would be 20,000 years.
Another possible reason Jesus hasn't returned: HEwas never real in the first place. After all, some people think that the Biblical character was an amalgam and/or re-interpretation of one or even several other figures, and the stories surrounding Jesus borrowed from other cultures and/or heavily embellished. MANY religions (outside the Judeo-Christian faiths) have myths of a deity-in-mortal-form character who 'died for our sins'. Some far older than the 2,000-odd years claimed by the Bible thumpers.
My favorite question to theist is "if in two thousands years, a person finds a Spiderman comic book does that mean Spiderman existed? And performed miracles?
If in two thousand years, the only evidence for New York is a spider-Man comic and we find New York. Does that mean Spider-Man existed?
@@MagnaOmerta Of course!
...And finding the name "Peter Parker" in a old phone book from the 1960's confirms it
"2,000 year old stories are believeable if they confirm what I want to believe," he says.
He must be a Ken Ham fan.
@@rong2912 ♬ Ham & Aigs, Ham & Aigs ♬
Hahahahaha yes
@J w Not what I said. He said he believes anything as long as it confirms his god belief. I only believe things when they're demonstrable, be 2000 or two-year-old stories etc.
@J w I'd say the lack of any evidence makes them not true. It has everything to do with the huge lack of proof, facts, evidence. Nothing to do with "what you want" the only people who have a want in the bible being true or untrue (true in this case) are the ones capable of living with that kind of ignorance, those are the "true believers"
"It's basic math. You take a bunch of weak evidence, multiple it together and it becomes strong evidence."
What a nut nob!!
yeah, that was saiyan-level stupid. like tracie said one time, "that's like saying if we multiply enough zeroes, eventually they'll add up to 1." ... i seriously wonder how some of these people survived to adulthood. they shoulda been Darwined out of the gene pool long ago.
aliceIMF the safeties of modern society keep these people alive. The problem with the human species is the least fit to survive produce the most offspring.
@@drg8687 "The problem with the human species is the least fit to survive produce the most offspring."
and right there is the crux of the problem.
@@aliceIMF Regression to the mean...it's why maintaining progress is so hard.
We have lots of hearsay and conjecture, those are KINDS of evidence..
My mother kept a pig in our yard. The yard was covered in 50 big square slabs.
She numbered the slabs using chalk then let the pig wander. Where ever it sat, she noted the number.
The following week she won $666 dollars in the local lottery and wanted to try the National Lottery.
But my father thought the pig was getting the numbers from Satan, so he slaughtered the pig.
You can lead a Christian to knowledge. But, you can't make them think.
Jubei Yang You said it champ, ‘they don’t think’. Thanks for being so honest.
Love it !
@@Jempath There isn't much in favor of arguing for his existence.. At least not more than for the multitude of other religions (that ofcourse claim to be just as right)...
@@Jempath I'm no bible expert and a non english speaker but 'To each is their own' is no sentence that makes sense which....makes total sense because religion makes no sense. 😜.
@@Jempath how exactly do you take Jude 1:18 as prophecy? There's ALWAYS been mockers, even during Noah's Ark period.
First question to all these callers should be.. why is being a Christian so important to you?? Answer- I’m scared. End of
Once you start believing in unverifiable claims you've lost the ability to reason.
Lose the ability to reason by getting "saved." Come on down and be "saved" by accepting our Lord Jesus.
@Folk Aart
God wants you to obey him. The preacher will tell you what god wants. He can't talk to you directly, the cat got his tongue.
Yes Totally ! .................
@@harveywabbit9541 And he needs a fucking lot of MONEY, poor "god" .................
@@hanyuguo Of course, ..................
1- Caller claims to have evidence
2- Caller starts by assuming that the bible is right...
3- I facepalm
He doesn't. That is a lie. It's funny because this video was shared in a Facebook group by the caller and even atheists there admitted that these hosts were idiots and that Matt Dilahunty would of been better.
@@LogosTheos which fb group post was it shared in?
@LogosTheos Yeah, Matt would have done better at debunking his bible arguments, sure. Still that doesn’t take away from the fact that stories in the bible about eyewitnesses that can’t be verified don’t prove the bible is correct. Using the bible to prove the bible is fallacious circular reasoning. The hosts were right to point that out.
LogosTheos
Then defend him.
What evidence did he present for his god?
Claims made by cultists in a primitive age of mad superstition and idolatry?
@@LogosTheos He obviously uses the bible to try and bolster his argument which means that he assumes it is accurate. Where else did he get the claims of the "eyewitnesses" from? The fact is the bible is not accurate.. It's a collection of fabrications with a tiny bit of real landmarks and events sprinkled in.
The Bible is 100% accurate!
If thrown at close range...
Even thrown at close range it can still miss !
And it has a poor ballistic coefficient and far more drag than necessary, it is an exceptionally poor projectile
@@MacTechG4 If you rip up the pages and turn them into spit balls and shoot them through a straw then you'd have a significant source of ammo. Lol.
I went to school with a religious boy who would throw bibles at people and shout "repent!" I was often hit with bibles so can attest their accuracy at short range.
@@moodilyoodily But you have to account for his experience with handling the bible. To the common heathen like ourselves, I would surmise that it'd be more of a challenge to hit our target without much practice. lol.
"It's simple mathematics."
He says you can take a bunch of half-baked evidences and multiply them together to make a proof. Does he not know that if you multiply 1/2 × 1/2 × 1/2...and so on the result gets smaller, not larger? It's also like claiming that if you stack enough D- grade tests on top of each other, you'll end up with an A+.
One million thumbs up
@@nosuchthing8 *1/2 :3
@@nosuchthing8 No, one billion THUMBS UP !!!
@@PoeLemic yes, I stand corrected.
That mistake is made over and over.
Imagine you're on a jury and the prosecutor's only evidence was "500 people saw him do it." These 500 witnesses are not identified, nor do you ever see any of them show up in court (let alone testify as to what they saw). Would you vote to convict?
I would convict and disbar the prosecuting attorney for gross lack of brain cells.
Prove that the writers of your book were not either deceived or lying. If you can't do that then your book has no more claims to truth than Harry Potter.
But Harry potter is real, there's video evidence too. Which is more then there is for Christianity.
The faster someone talks, the less they want you to think about.
Yup. This guy thinks he's smart and he probably is in most aspects of his life. Regarding religion though, he is deluded and disregards logic and reason and so many times the hosts show his argument is absurd but he just doubles down.
We call that Ben Shapiro syndrome.
Not necessarily.
I've been kinda conditioned to talk fast during my upbringing. I try to slow myself down, but there's no "malicious" intent when it happens. And I get faster when nervous.
I have real evidence for dragons.
It's in a historical document called The Hobbit
It was 3 in game of thrones so they must be real lol
Give it about 1500 years. And Lord of the rings etc. His dark materiales. Fifty shades. Harry Potter etc. etc. Is things that happened.
@@GlossRabban Give it a few thousand years and people will think we had starships whizzing around the galaxy fighting strangely human looking aliens
The hobbit is not historical...
King Arthur, and the tales of Constantine, however ;)
we even have a training manual. how to train your dragon.
Religion destroys the ability to properly use logic and reason. This caller proves it.
Frozen, dogmatic beliefs in an ever changing world.
Good luck.
WV News & Information While I agree with the sentiment, I think it would be more accurate to say that he's an indicator of it, rather than proof of it. A lot of believers are actually rational, reasonably logical people in other aspects of life - just not when it comes to THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC. The whole schtick - 'believe THIS, never question it, defend it at all costs' was hammered into his head long before he was ever taught reason or logic. It's exactly why religions encourage marriage to others of the same faith, why they perform the various rituals at such an early age (baptism, etc.) and promote religious education practically from birth - because these measures are crucial to ensure another generation of believers in a world that is becoming increasingly secular, where more and more evidence continues to mount against these religious doctrines, and so on.
There's a computer equivalent - a virus. Loads at startup, insinuatates itself into the operating system, does its best to convince antivirus measures that it's 'legit', and continues to leech resources, influence operations, and do its dirty work.
@Michael In some respects, you're absolutely correct - how to vote and how to treat others often being the most egregious examples. I'm referring, however, in day to day. They know that, for example, the circumference of a circle is not exactly three times its diameter, that the blood of a bird sprinkled on another bird is not a cure for disease, that the sky is not a 'firmament', that the earth is not 'immovable', that it is not acceptable to stone disobedient children or those who work on the Sabbath to death, and that many of the Bible's claims are just absurd. They also can exercise some critical thinking in that they don't fall for absolutely every ludicrous claim or obvious con-job.
I hope that clarifies my remarks.
"Are you reading this?"
"No I'm not."
Then proceeds to pick up reading at the exact last word he left off with when they asked him that question.
What historians claim that Jesus actually appeared to the apostles after his death? Citations please? Seriously. You're just making wild assertions.
If I buried the Harry Potter books in a cave for 2000 years, would it mean they used to fly on broomsticks? But there are 7 books, 8 movies and a theme park saying it's true?
Don’t forget the thousands of eyewitness testimonies(fan-fic’s)
W Adamczyk yes.
W Adamczyk I saw Harry on a broomstick.
Don't forget the action figures. Why would people creat figures of things that don't exist! That's the mindframe of the religious. So when future generations find them, there will be proof that Hogwarts existed.
Lazarus was allegedly raised from the dead too. He never gets any love.
Almost everyone was rising from the dead around that time, a whole bunch of them climbed out of their graves and wandered around Jerusalem in a sort of zombie apocalypse.
@@roqsteady5290 and yet not a single historian save for those fiction writers of the bible seem to notice this...
"oh, look, isn't that varnus? didn't he, like, die?"
"oh wow, the dead are walking we should record this!"
not a single historian ever mentioned anything... its like it never happened...
its like its just made up!
wow...
@@hakureikura9052 "We didn't write any of this shit down. As a joke."
Lazarus died and Yeshua brought him back to life.
When he was interviewed by the local authorities he said he could not remember anything.
Later on he died again and hasn't been heard from since.
There's a lesson in there somewhere.
"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible."
Mark Twain
If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be - a Christian.
You should be thankful Christ is not here or God would have you burning.
Bubbascuba evidence presupposes absolute truth, absolute truth presupposes God. You can ask for evidence without admitting God exists.
Also if you dont think Jesus ever existed, then it follows you cant believe Aristotle, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great any of these people from ancient history ever existed because they dont come close for the evidence Jesus has. And no one that wrote about these people, sacrificed their life (in a very brutal way) like the authors that documented Jesus' life.
So again, please provide your source of absolute truth which even allows you to ask for evidence, without having to borrow from the Christian God you already know exists.
@Bubbascuba I don't see how thats relevant. Supply the data for your position that allows you to ask for evidence?
If he would appear that would settle the question, right?
Caller: *obviously reads from script*
Host: are you reading this?
Caller: ...NO!😳...*continues to read from script*
Yes I also noticed that, he was clearly reading a written paragraph from something 😉
Yeah, he doesn't miss a beat when lying about reading his prepared script. That's Christianity for ya!
Caller: ..."NO! And then picks up reading right where he left off! Lol!
@Hollow Shell I'll check it out 👍
No duh. He is a theist. Its in his nature to lie just like its in the nature of water to be wet.
Sherlock Holmes also resurrected after his fall down the mountain. How do I know this ? Because Mrs Hudson and Dr Watson were eye witnesses to his coming back to life. I can also cite Inspector Lagrange and Mycroft Holmes. And Sherlock also has his own museum in Baker St, London. Did the fiddle playing, cocaine addict, detective also create the universe ?
I know Jesus is real because l heard EX atheist that became Christians ADMIT JESUS is GOD!!!!! LOL!!!!
Through the tears of laughter I submit that Sherlock did not create the universe but he has evidence of how it was made wrong.
@@joeoakkley641 I heard EX Christian that became atheist ADMIT GOD is not real, checkmate
This guy was reading a speech from someone hoping that he could spit enough nonsense out before the call ended.
Canadian Catholic probably.
This guy sounds like he had doubts and is so desperate to believe that will use everything he can to convince himself !
He’s a religious apologist who loves to test out his apologetic arguments on atheist.
He has called sooo many times.
He is Jonathan Maclatchie. He's an apologist.
Sounds like he had a script and got really confused when he fell off it.
And he is not a very good apologist at that. Repeating that "there were many eyewitnesses" is not an argument.
I believe Jonathan McLatchie as a British apologist is calling in - and he has done it before - not to convince atheists, but that he is worried that TAE will make its' Christian viewers doubt the script and that USA will follow UK (and the rest of Europe) with less Christians among the population.
Mark couldn't have possibly been written in the 50's CE, he talks about the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, which occurs in 70 CE. Sooooo.... BZZZZZZZT!
Well that settles that.
For what it’s worth: Predicting the fall of Jerusalem wouldn’t have been that miraculous given the level of turmoil that existed during that time between Rome and Palestine.
Capturing Christianity but he discusses it happening.
God is a freak and schizophrenic He discusses a prediction of the event, not the event after the fact.
@David Anewman Yes, we all know you believe a lot of stupid shit.
Jenna is such a great addition to the team. Smart, quick mind and logical, with real world analogies that point to the fallacies of the caller, and she's not afraid of jumping in on the discussion.
😂😝😂😝😂😝😂😝
Jonathan thinks he’s SO smart. What a hilariously confused human.
It’s sad because he is definitely smart. I think it’s more about emotion than having a good argument, unfortunately. It’s hard to overcome something that you want to be true so badly.
He does seem smart! It's a shame he has wasted his brain on magical nonsense.
Well he does have two masters degrees and is a PHD student in biology so he probably is
Joel Underhill Kent hovind claims similar credentials
@@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll How can you want something to be true when it is already is
There are no firsthand accounts of the resurrection. There are stories from people who claimed to see Jesus after he was crucified, but those were written long afterwards by unknown people who were trying to start a religion.
Jesus was allegedly put in a tomb, and that tomb was allegedly empty later. Nobody can confirm those things and nobody saw what happened. Not a very convincing story.
John DeMarco 👍👏👏
It's even worse than you state. We have stories from people who claim to have been told stories told by people who claim to have heard stories from people who said they saw a resurrected Jesus. This is hearsay evidence several removes from being eyewitness evidence. Hearsay of hearsay of hearsay ..... McLatchie has to know he's lying when he says he has eyewitness accounts. Any court would throw him out of the room the first time he opened his mouth with such ridiculous statements.
I'm from England too and I was really embarrassed by Jonathon's apologetics. The Church of England is dying, churches are closing down as people realise that stories of God's and Heaven and Hell were made up by other people to address issues such as "what happens when you die". That people are still afraid of death and need to study apologetics as Jonathon appears to have done is astonishing. The Bible also says this about the death of the supposed messiah (who failed the messianic prophecies): Matthew 27:50-54 (NIV)
(50) And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
(51) At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
(52) The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
(53) They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
(54) When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”.
So dead people were walking around Jerusalem?
So much for "eye witness" testimony from 2 millennia ago. Jesus is also claimed with famously saying: King James Bible
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Well that clearly did not happen. So Jesus's own words is not even good evidence.
You gave him a lot of latitude that Matt Dillahunty or the ex Pastor you often have on would not have but Matt knows his bible.
Despite Jonathon sounding a bit more educated than some of the people you have on the show it was the same old nonsense.
I bet he wasn't from England, he sounded American and maybe said that to just get on the show
First prove jesus lived. Then prove what happened to him after he died.
If your only source is the Bible, your reasoning is circular. I know it's true because this scripture says it is. You need external sources as well.
While I agree 100% I’ve heard the argument that any and all sources would have been added to the Bible so that’s why there aren’t any. I think this is stupid logic as things like a death certificate or even just a mention of hearing about a Jesus would probably not be in the Bible, but this is the logic you have to come up against and they will cling to this as hard as they can.
That doesn't make sense. If I have eyewitness testimony in the form of gospels, you can't say that all my eyewitness testimony is in the bible therefore I'm using it to demonstrate the bible. The gospels are categorized as biblical writings because the bible is a library of works which can be added to as time passes. This line of thinking is just so confused...
You swapped "proving Jesus" with "proving the bible" which is not the same thing. You also said I'm using the bible, which I'm not, because im specifically using testimony to demonstrate a person, or a holy person if you believe in a deity which I do.
iAnarchist it’s like I summoned him. I said that’s the excuse given typically and then it arrived
Zayan Watchel you have eye witness testimony in the form of the gospels which you presuppose as true without evidence. You say you aren’t using the Bible as evidence for the Bible but you are literally saying the gospels or “testimony” is your evidence but that testimony is in the Bible.
You are literally demonstrating what he and I said. Give any evidence that Jesus existed without using the Bible. Don’t use the gospels or their testimonies like you just tried to do. My first post in this comment chain said you were going to try exactly what you tried and that isn’t convincing evidence to someone that doesn’t accept that the gospels have any truth in them to begin with.
But the Bible is their external evidence!
He was absolutely reading that off a script. The way his speech pattern changed and he started talking at double time is indicative that he wasn't relaying his thoughts, but just rattling off a script.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -- Carl Sagan
MAJOR FAIL on Jonathan's part.
Pretty much his entire life
Ignorance kills
Are you reading this somewhere?
.... no, I'm not.. (continues reading)
Lol that was really funny
Lol what a tool , having no evidence doesn't make the probability 0 🙈🙈🙈
If he wasn't reading it then he must have memorized that entire speech. That's even worse!
John DeMarco
His vocal inflections made it obvious that he was reading.
@@powbobs Yeah, I thought it was funny that he denied it even though it would have made him look better.
Great to see Don in the "Driving seat" again.
It's so sad to listen to these callers citing "Evidence" that they themselves would consider laughablly weak if it were being used by someone else to support any non religious claim.
or other religious claim, the caller admitted to Matt that he does not believe other religions which is ironic when his case is no better and in some cases worse.
Jonathan sounds like an intelligent person. Just imagine if he applied his talents to arguing for improving education, health-care, science funding. So much wasted time on a zombie novel.
AwesomeShot Studios best comment
Dumb comment
using the bible as historical fact is exactly why we have this ongoing dialog. It's a story. mythical. loosely based on observation. hashing it out is a waste of time.
So you are saying the Bible has no historical nuggets?
@@LogosTheos No-one has said that. there are plenty of historical nuggets
How do you explain Jesus knowing about a tied up unridden donkey before he even enters the city.
@@bleirdo_dude may have been a common thing at that time
@@corky3550 Like saying you will find a parked 4 door sedan in the next neighborhood. :P
This circular babble is what religion does to otherwise very intelligent people. It’s sad, and somewhat pathetic that somebody would invest that much time and effort to blatant circular logic. It’s also unfortunate that someone who clearly posses high intelligence would use their minds to develop this kind nonsensical “evidence,” when they could possibly be researching the cure for cancer instead. This call is just more proof that religion poisons everything.
The Gospels are not eyewitness accounts. The names they have were assigned late in the 2nd century. Nobody knows who authored them. Matthew and Luke borrowed heavily from Mark (what we’d call plagiarism). Luke himself indicates he wasn’t an eyewitness.
All but seven of the letters of Paul are undisputed, the rest deemed by many scholars as pseudepigrapha.
Mohammed flew up into the sky on a winged horse but Yeshua went under his own power.
Up in the sky, look, it's Yeshua and Mohammed, still up there.
Why was everything written so long after the death of Jesus? There is no way to verify that all the biblical writings are accurate and true. There are so many questions about the Bible, people choose just to believe it
Yeah and that is never mentioned in school. Why maybe because you can't prove or disprove something after 💯 year's after the fact, made up Mostly.
@Maxx Kroes They didn't have photographs, but pictures/drawings existed even back then. I know of none that were drawn though.
@Maxx Kroes A drawing can depict the same thing a photograph can so I'm not sure what you mean by a "picture" not being real?
Both can depict something though which isn't real but rather made up, as I think may the case as far as Jesus is concerned. I may be wrong but I haven't heard of any contemporary pictures of him. If he was as famous as many people claim, wouldn't artists have drawn him during his (alleged) life, not decades, etc., later, after his equally alleged death and resurrection?
He is saying "it's more probable that they were not lying, because they had no reason to". More probable then what, more probable then a human resurrecting? lol You've got to be kidding me.
He doesn't understand the difference between lying and being mistaken.
@@rageofheaven even if he understood, both lying and being mistaken should absolutely be considered as more probable, than a resurrection of human, right?
@@KemoHay Considering I can prove people have both been mistaken and lied, and not someone resurrected, you would be right.
"Because they had no reason to". How would he know they had no reason to?
Consistency bias can lead all humans who were initially mistaken in a recollection to become more forceful in their claims. In other words, a person who told a story inaccurately always has some reason to lie
And he will be resurrected tonight on the holy porcelain throne
Lmao
Jesus is that you?
All hail Mr. Hankey!
This guy looks like if Matt and Aron fused together.
Then flushed to the holy sea and reborn as the loch ness monster.
Some guy wrote some letters? Ah well, that settles it, I'm convince, Hallelujah! I guess I get to go to Heaven now.
You're only going to heaven if you believe in the godly noodlyness of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He boiled for our sins! R'amen!
@Harry Waddington what has that to do with anything? If you want to compare Alexander to Jesus you're going to be disappointed, because we have evidence that Alexander existed , unlike Jesus.
@Harry Waddington this is not true. The oldest texts we have about Alexander are from Kallisthenes of Olynth, who was Alexander's official chronicler and took part in his campaigns against Persia. We also know about Anaximenes of Lampsakos who wrote his story of Alexander during the campaigns. Not to mention that it's a known fact that with Alexander began the time of Hellenism. We also know about the writings of Aristobulos of Kassandreia and Ptolemaios, both fought at Alexander's side and the latter was a good friend of Alexander and was later crowned by him to be the king of Egypt. Also there are countless cities founded by Alexander during his wars which have his name. And even after his death we have evidence, for example it's a proven fact that Caesar, Augustus, Septimius Severus and Caracalla visited his grave before it got lost.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So yes, we really have way more evidence for Alexander than for Jesus.
@Harry Waddington oh dear, Henry. This is what comes from ignorant echo chambers. Some apologist has said there is no contemporary evidence for Alexander and, because they want it to be true, no one questions it. Only problem is the reams of evidence contradicting the claim....
@@God_Is_An_Atheist If you want the truth about Jesus there were many books written about Him. Many evidence discovered by Archiologiest so then, who you are to deny the story of God? satan the liar and the deceiver, get out from this man. in Jesus name.
What is the evidence that Popeye exists ?
Well we know he has a girlfriend named Olive Oyl.
Also, you can buy spinach in the grocery store.
And there are hundreds of cartoons.
I also use olive oil to cook.
@@cy-one
I bet it hurts.
Paul was not an eyewitness and never met Jesus and there is no evidence that he met any apostles. So he thinks it is strong evidence that there are reports from alleged eye witnesses i.e. they are hearsay. All Paul claims is that he had a vision of Jesus. But as for the crucifiction and resurrection he knew nothing. neither did he know anything about the apostles. The rest is just lies.
petereuk52 Paul met John and George and formed the famous bug band. The Beatles. Ho ho hooo! Im so funny😆
@@henrikduende You think?
We also have countless witness testimonies of Elvis post mortem. How is this guy not aware of how weak his evidence is.
Dude needs to look up the definition of "zero."
Also dividing by dogdoo.
Even worse, he needs to look up the definitions of evidence, bayesian analysis and probability. He says at 20:30 that you multiply the probabilities together and the weak evidence multiply together to become strong evidence. Anyone taking a rudimentary statistics class can tell you that when you multiply probabilities you get a weaker (lesser) probability, not a greater one.
This is what happens when you start with a conclusion, little or no evidence and no education and then try to build an argument around it.
@@PrometheusZandski I understand this, but the caller clearly does not. Throw statistics out the window for a second. This guy can't comprehend that you have to have a least one provable instance of something to establish possibility which can lead to probability. There are 0 examples of any deities and he STILL tries to calculate a probability. Smh
@@bryantpatterson312 I totally agree; however, I would be careful not to require that undeniable proof of one thing is required to lead to probability. I believe it is sufficient to have multiple lines of evidence we know are true that all point to something else being true. We knew there must be something like a neutrino decades before we could prove it existed. There were multiple lines of solid evidence that lead Cowan and Reines down a path until they proved it existed. We have the same challenge going on today with dark matter. The caller, on the other hand, has no lines of evidence at all that would lead him to believe his ridiculous conclusion.
@@PrometheusZandski I meant what I said in terms of causation. Earthquakes, wind, and animals can be causes of why leaves in a tree can shake. They are not the only possible causes of course, but we know that these things exist. We could then calculate the probable cause of the shaking leaves based on these known possible causes with the location of the tree, climate, etc.
With his arguments you could argue that the earth is flat. They would not have anything to lose.....
His last call he said "some guy asked this other guy where the bread shop is, proving that the other guy was a bread shop owner and is real and the story is true" Which would also be an argument you could use with " some guy asked where the dragon shop is" to prove dragons......It's just sad
@@sycofreake1 where can we get that dragon? 😜
funny that an all-powerful deity expects us to be persuaded by such weak evidence...
Truthus Maximus stop you don’t know what ur taking about atheism is not a belief it the lack of belief in any god based on the lack of evidence that’s it that’s all it is which is pretty rational
Truthus Maximus the baseline is to not believe a claim until it’s proven to be true
Truthus Maximus why are you even on here? You must have doubts if you don’t then your simply a troll your not going to convince anyone god is real
Truthus Maximus stop trying...your not winning here...I don’t have enough evidence to accept the claim that a god exists and I don’t foresee that changing anytime soon unless something crazy new comes out...you definitely aren’t going to convince if you could you would have a Nobel prize BYE dude your wasting your time
Truthus Maximus no it is intellectual to admit you don’t know...it’s dishonest to not know and say you do
I was raised Catholic, and even as I child, I had huge doubts. And now as an adult, I don’t see how anyone can have “faith” in this bs. Please use your brains people. Think for yourselves.
You aren't thinking for yourself. You simply chose who you believed
Tommy Harring See, that’s where you’ve gotten it completely wrong. Many atheists became that way because they were looking for evidence to prove the existence of God & Jesus. When they couldn’t find it, or worse, started finding proof that they’d been misled all their lives, they ARE thinking. You are believing what you’ve been told.
@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192
That's what I said, You "discovered" you were misled by someone who convinced their version of reality was the right one.
@@keithherring7677
You don't really understand how belief works, do you?
Tommy Harring Don’t you get tired of being proven wrong? Got that extra biblical source I’ve asked for seven times now?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, because in order to accept an extraordinary claim as true one must change their entire view on reality.
Claiming you own a dog, is a claim I can accept with no evidence, but it is also a claim that doesn't require that I change anything I believe about reality as I know it and experience daily. I know people exist, I know that dogs exist, and I know humans own dogs as pets. I don't need to change anything I already know or believe about reality to accept this claim.
However if you claim you own a pet invisible gnome, in order for me to accept that claim as true I have to change everything I believe and know about realty. It requires stronger (more extraordinary) evidence to accept this claim, because it requires I change my entire worldview of what reality is and how it operates.
Claiming someone came back from the dead, is an extraordinary claim, in order to accept it is true requires I change everything I believe and know about reality and how it operates. And you have to have better evidence than anecdotal hearsay, that can't be verified and just has to be accepted on by faith. That kind of evidence for that claim is insufficient.
"That kind of evidence for that claim is insufficient." Actually, it's not that it's insufficient but rather that it can't be called evidence at all.
@@religiohominilupus5259 I personally agree, I was just pointing out that it is insufficient, whether it is considered evidence or not.
@@jinxy72able Gotcha!
Boy Matt has rubbed off on don he's seriously fighting instead of laughing.. good to see
“Sure, we don’t have eyewitness, but Paul says he met some people that other books claimed were eyewitness, and that’s basically the same thing”
Hey, bonehead, that is HEARSAY, not eyewitness testimony.
The four resurrection accounts contradict each other. Write the four stories side by side and compare and contrast. It is enlightening.
Did Paul have something to gain by claiming he met the apostles? In fact, saying he argued with the head apostle and won the debate? Absolutely! He established his bona fides to early faith communities as an official teacher, and that his new doctrines carried some sort of seal of approval from the perceived authority of the apostles. It's an early version of the doctrine of Apostolic Authority used in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Early bishops also made similar claims that they were taught directly by a specific apostle as a way to cement their authority and teachings. For example, it was said that Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John, and was ordained by John as bishop of Smyrna.
Paul never had to meet an apostle. He only needed to claim he did. Who was going to take a trip to Jerusalem and research the matter? Especially after Rome had decimated it in 70 CE (when any possible apostles, and the very heart of the the original Way Movement was most likely killed)?
He wasn't an eyewitness to anything dealing directly with Jesus.
Claims of threats or danger for carrying on his ministry are meaningless given that many religious people have defied laws and risked death for something they believed in. Paul was convinced the world was coming to an end in his own lifetime, so his ministry was all the more urgent in his mind.
The Bible also has no claims from a direct eyewitness to anything dealing with Jesus written during the life, or close to the time of death of Jesus. Only stories well after the fact. Claims that witnesses existed. And passed down creeds.
Human primates do not rise from the dead.
The Resurrection STORY of Christ is linked to the earlier cults of Persephone, Adonis, Attis, Osiris, and Dionysus.
Furthermore there was no need for a dying and rising god.
Yahweh could have simply revoked free will, after he saw all the damage it caused.
@Sam Bacon not 3 days. Agree.
The second of silence and the "oh really?" at 0:50 shows that these people can't even conceive the thought that not everyone believes in what they consider the absolute truth.
The stories are true, because the people in the stories believe it to be true. Wow, nice argument. Abraham Lincoln was really a vampire hunter because people in the movie believed that he was a vampire hunter.
I can't deal with obtuse, this is torture. Never answers a question honestly, never presents anything he says he will. And has his own dictionary with personal definitions. But I am very pleased you let these fools prattle on and on, they turn so many people away from their bs so the rest of us have things easier.
Keep up your good work. The truth is quite bearable, and i am better off in every aspect of my life. No more religious illusions for me, Cheers from Canada.
So how do we know paul wasn’t pulling a fast one an getting free dinner everywhere he went.....😃
The Temple priests had dinner brought to them while Paul had to go house to house. LOL!
People have majored in convincing themselves of whatever they want and minored in convincing others of the same.
You don't need extraordinarily evidence for a regular claim. You do need extraordinary evidence for an extraordinary claim.
He keeps saying Paul saw Jesus. I think he means peter. Paul, who was saul, never meet.
Or he thinks that Paul's vision is a literally real and a historical fact.
It's common, two of them tried to tell me that Paul was an eyewitness to the resurrection, just the other day.
*they said this the other day, not the resurrection was the other day.
@@hueynrolf9272 I've heard a couple of Christian's claim that shit. Shows they don't read their bibles
You can tell that it's all bull crap when people that believe that the bible is true has to scrape the proverbial bottom of the evidence barrel for anything that even resembles it.
I love the show. This was a good show. I really enjoyed Don's intro.
Their behavior is the epitome of Confirmation Bias...
The Hebrew Bible has so many contradictions in its narrative that it cancels itself out on the first page.
That's why faith and belief is essential for understanding it.
The moment you examine it for CONSISTENCY it becomes incoherent gibberish.
@@JamesRichardWiley what contradictions?
@Sam Bacon from my understanding how the creation event is wrote about from chapter one to chapter 2 doesnt exactly change but simply gives a generalization of the events in chapter 2 so its not really 2 different creation events. About lilith I've only read a few things about her so i can't properly speak on that matter. Duet was the last book written by Moses which would have been getting close to finished right when he died and i can't remember the name of the guy that supposedly had finished it by writting in Moses death according to the theory that is but he wrote almost all of those books so the credit goes to Moses.
@Sam Bacon actually no they are not different at all as the first part gave specifics as "when" certain things were created and the second part is just stating that those things were created not really saying "when" they were cteated just that they were created and how it was handled. No contradiction. I just read through the verses again its simple just writting style that makes it sound like it contradicts at first glance but when analyzed its not really a contradiction of 2 seperate events. Glad we got the moses thing cleared up
Jenna: Are you reading that somewhere?
Johnathan: No. "Moreover...".
Ha!
- 'Are you reading this somewhere?
- 'No' ( continues reading )
🤣🤣🤣
You're not insinuating that a christian would tell lies for God? Are you????
0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 0.
Oh, and to add to the argument of “What did Paul have to gain?”...we are still talking about him, so I would say he got what he wanted.
Zero times dogdoo = dogdoo.
Becoming the leader of a cult is extremely tempting for some people (money, sex, power). We don't have to look back 2000 years to see that. People are doing it today.
"Let's see, nuthin' and nuthin' is nuthin'......carry the nuthin'...." - Jayne Cobb
@@similaritiesendhere There is a psychological condition called persecution fetish. This explains a lot of seemingly irrational behavior by members of cults.
Paul got money, fame, free food and shelter, all for doing nothing but making up a story. Want a semi-modern example? Joseph Smith.
"Are you reading this somewhere?" Busted! Johnathan is a compulsive talker. He's probably lonely, so he calls these shows.
What the hell did I just listen to? Is this what I sounded like when I was religious? I hope not...
Why dont these eye witnesses call in?
The faster he talks, the higher the level of sophistry.
Ben Shapiro would be proud, if had the ability to feel pride
People who talk fast have nothing to say
He was for sure reading that lol. It's very clear when he's speaking extemporaneously and when he's reading.
...”hey! I just witnessed the most amazing miracles! A guy cured blindness, fed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes, walked on water, and even brought a couple people from the dead! This needs to be recorded for posterity as soon as possible!”
-Takes a few decades to write it all down. Sounds legit.
The faster Johnathan talks the less sense he makes.
Matt needed to be here on this episode... he'd be able to more firmly and concretely shut down this caller. Nothing this guy said approached "eyewitness accounts", "Bayesian analysis", or "forensic evidence"... but he wouldn't stop talking about each of these particular fallacious aspects of Christian historiography.
Hi Johnathon here. Just doing some maths....1*1*1*1"1*1*1*1*1*1*0=God
Was going to watch the video but looked at the comment section first. The lack of maturity from some of the comments is appalling.
@MoonCrow I would love to have evidence, for God. Does one have any? Not arguments, not quotes from a musty old book. Evidence, like the kind of evidence that would stand up in a court of law. When one has that come back to us.
@MoonCrow Yes I want evidence. The same kind of evidence that we have for the planet being spheroid, or that the Earth orbits the sun. The thing is God, if he exists knows EXACTLY what would serve as evidence for his existence. If you were born in India you would be apologizing for Ganesh and Hanuman. Eyewitness accounts are not what they were in courts of law these days. Forensic evidence would be much better.
You do not have SUFFICIENT evidence for your God. Why is disbelieving in the deity of ancient Middle-Eastern tribes a silly position? There is no more evidence for the God of the Bible than there is for the Hindu Vishna or the Azhura Mazda and Ahriman of the Zoroastrian faith.
Believing in things that cannot be demonstrated to be true is the epitome of irrationality.
I know you are but what am I
Admissible evidence is that which makes a properly provable proposition more or less likely. Eye witness testimony should be evaluated by the witness's perception, memory, narration, and sincerity.
Since we do not have Paul to cross examine to test his perception, memory, narration, or sincerity, he is not an eye witness. All we have are his letters, half of which are forgeries. His letters are hearsay, even the ones that are authentic.
Hearsay is an out of court statement being offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in that statement. Hearsay is not admissible unless it satisfies one of several exceptions to the hearsay rule. Paul's letters do not satisfy any of the exceptions. (At least it cannot be shown that they do.) Google: Exceptions to Hearsay Rule for more detail.
Hope this helps.
Even if one buys his contention about "50 AD" which BTW no serious scholar acknowledges and 80-90CE is more accurate that's still 25 years AFTER all this supposedly happened. The most important event in human history and NO ONE except these guys bothered to record it -a quarter century later.
Word for word, exactly as they ushered from his holy lips.
Matt is carrying this show hard.
Matt has ruined AE.
All I can say about Johnathan is Aww! He wants his little storybook to be true SO BADLY that that're willing to ignore irrefutable REALITY AND EVIDENCE-BASED FACTS!
That is how religions do.
"God by definition is eternal" = this guys proof. FFS
Yeah if I define myself as a billionaire, then I am by definition a billionaire! I can quit my job now! Haha.
I am convinced that the callers name is spelled incorrectly
These two fools really have just rolled off the back of the turnip cart, hey?
I always wonder ,when people talk about martyrdom or being tortured as evidence that justify or validate belief,, if they understand how weak an argument that is. Consider the heavens gate cult, they believed their leader Devine and aliens were coming, the chosen disciples committed suicide, some followers are still around waiting for the second coming,; or consider the branch dividians believing david koresh was holy and were willing to burn to death on his command, the survivors still believe in his teachings. There are many cultist who think there leader is the word of an invisible force or deity and they are contemporary, present day, yet no one outside the group accepts their dogma as real because they are fanatical prometheus was punished by the gods for giving humans fire by being chained to a stone and constantly having his liver eaten by carrion birds and his agony was eternal, he suffered so the story has to be true?
He should watch Life of Brian, that would probably give him more evidence to his idea of eye witnessing. 😂
Everybody should watch the movie "Life Of Brian " . Genius storytelling.
My cheeks hurt from laughing so hard!
PIXIES DO INDEED EXIST! Alternative rock band formed in 1986 in Boston, Massachusetts.