Update: There is MORE to this story, doesn’t look like hornady will pursue the 8.6 ARC. The 8.6 Ammo list is HERE with codes.... eaglerun23.com/blog/f/the-big-ammo-list
I have built both a bolt and a gas gun in 8.6 blackout, if they do an 8.6ARC I will probably build one of them too, I have shot Grendel for a long time, and I have a 6 ARC as well. I love to tinker more as i get closer to retirement.
If I had to guess why Hornady is backing a 1:5 twist rate, I'd say it has to do with bullet material. 1:3 spins so fast that it pretty much requires a solid copper projectile. Copper is expensive, particularly when you're sending over 300 grains downrange at a time. Lead is 1/4 the cost of copper. A jacketed lead bullet is more profitable to produce, since you know as well as I do that you're not going to get jacketed bullets for 1/4 the cost of copper bullets. Hornady will pocket the difference.
I haven't seen traditional, jacketed copper 8.6 rounds rip themselves apart from a 1:3 twist but I like this theory and I think it has legs. As an ammo manufacturer, Hornady has greater sensitivity to how they can scale production and sell at volume in different product lines, of which they have a whopping 21 for various rifle rounds from Superformance, Critical Defense, Black, Frontier, and so on. If they're pigeonholed into exclusively solid copper projectiles by the very spec of the round, they'd be stuck with higher cost, lower volume ammo right out of the gate and for as long as it took them to figure out some less expensive bonding process or something to make cheaper stuff work. And bear in mind, this is a big, heavy, expensive bullet with a lot of material no matter what, so cost of production differences per round matter even more than for smaller rounds.
It was just a small blurb that was easy to miss, but the Shot Show announcement for the Primary Weapons UXR rifle stated that 8.6BLK would be one of the upcoming conversion kits. PWS barrels are proprietary and made in-house, so it doesn't give builders any more options sadly. But I will likely be picking one up and thought it might add to your discussion.
without Hornady the 8.6 will just be a wild cat , will i still build one , probably but going to wait. heard Aero precision will be putting out a 8.6 gun and barrels this year
dies for 8.6 blackout, yes, almost everyone now. Check out Sheridan for case gauges. 8.6 ARC is still year + away, Hornady doesnt know i told yall about it yet. literally no one else knows. This is the first video on youtube to mention 8.6 ARC
With testing I have have done, there should be no reason the most common bullets are breaking apart in subsonic applications with a 1:3 twist. So Hornady not being able to manufacture a reliable subsonic bullet is probably not it. Heck, the reason Q went to 1:3 was for the most common bullet types. The problem probably lies in government regulations with the NFA. Getting out to the most people they would have to be 16" rifle configurations. Unfortunately, a subsonic load for an SBR will be supersonic and possibly breaking apart.
Hornady sets the testing standard, and make the spec ammo for all the labs so all the ammo used to test a new sammi rounds is manufed by Hornady. Even though 8.6 is designed by Q, Hornady makes the ammo used to test it in labs. Theres other companies that can submit too. Like Remington submitted on behalf of AAC at the time the 300 Blk was being developed
q makes a round for specific applications and materials, and then hornady goes behind q's back and submits a different twist rate with a big fu to q???what the hell???
Imagine having to make something that works for everyone not just several handful of people. In order to SAAMI approve anything it has to prove to work all across the board and people tearing apart suppressors with 1:3” is not a good look. Clearly that’s a twist rate issue and honestly the 1:5 makes more since for this cartridge. Now if there was something like 8.6 arc then maybe a 1:3 twist would make sense with nothing but subs. I want a 8.6 blackout to shoot supers for target and maybe even animals but also want to play around with subs and 1:3 seems to make it a little complicated. You aren’t losing much in terms of performance but you also are less likely to have issues with baffle strikes and bullets busting open before they hit the target. Just my opinion on why Hornady said 1:5 and Q was just too ignorant to listen because I’m sure Hornady dropped it because of issues with the twist rate and just didn’t want to make a big deal about it after the fact.
Just finished an 8.6 on a AR10 with a Faxon barrel. If they change configuration for SAAMI I don't care. I'm staying with the 8 6 Blackout and a one in three barrel
I messaged Q that they should consider making a hybrid of the case. If they could make .277 Fury into a .338/8.6 Really would like to see other manufactures make a steel case high pressure round like the .277/6.8x51 without Sig Sauer proprietary patents on the barrels and ammo manufacturing. At this rate it’s a bust if other companies can’t make the ammo or barrels.
I put together a 12" gas gun and I have the Uintah Precision bolt action upper so I can swap out uppers and only using one lower receiver. I also have 308 uppers for the same lower receiver. So I have four upper receivers that can fit on one lower receiver. A great way to save money.
Yes. None of them agreed to be shared tho. Kinda weird this is not really in my wheelhouse. But I am comfortable sharing what I shared. I even had to pop in edits to get it right.
I'm almost finished building my 8.6 Blackout with a Faxon 16 inch barrel. I got Starline Brass and Barnes bullets, but where can I find load data for it? I want to go shoot it as soon as I can load some ammo for it. Any ideas?
saami won’t approve something with such fast twist rate. That’s the issue with the cartridge. I believe it has a high chance of destabilization because of the twist rate
Leave it up to Hornady to screw things up. They want to have their own twist and caliber so they can take credit for it. Hornady will screw over the little guy and not think twice about it. I refuse to use anything that has Hornady on it. I reload my own ammo, especially after I used some shotgun slug and 308 Hornady ammo that was loaded with squib rounds from the factory. To make things worse they tried blaming me for the messed up factory ammo. That's why I reload all my ammo.
I built an 8.6 a year and a half ago. Killed lots of stuff in Africa last year. SuperSonic = 👎🏻 Subsonic= 👍🏻 1:3 twist doesn’t matter that much so 1:5 would be fine. One issue I had during load development was case capacity and powder pressure maintenance because of it. Case was TOO big and subs only need a tiny bit of powder, so the Grendel case idea is VERY attractive! I’ll definitely build a barrel for a Howa mini if that happens! ELD 285 factory Hornady @ 1050fps?!?!? Bring it on!
The faster 1:3 twist does offer drastically increased potential to transfer energy with expanding rounds. But I suppose for someone hunting big game, you need more penetration so a setup that transfers energy that rapidly isn't necessary.
Is it possible SAAMI rejected the submission, forcing Hornady to pull it? Was there some sort of potential safety issue? Keep reporting ER23...haters gonna hate, lol.
@@jacktheaviator4938 we’re doing the best we can. Info was changing fast then. And it takes a day to film and edit. I either lost a video I know isn’t accurate. Or try to get the best version out asap. Nothing else I could do. You are watching breaking news 6 months later :)
If you can let me know what was contradictory I can address. I am not typically reporting news like this. So this video was tough to make and get right. I am on this caliber from the get go and consistently making 8.6 blackout videos. I had the first diy build gun. I am helping all the ammo companies, bullet mfg, brass mfg I spoke with a large (very large) rifle mfg Tuesday about their “potential” offerings in 8.6. I didn’t say hornady told me anything. Everyone I spoke with wanted to remain anonymous. Understandably.
It does NOT make sense that only 1 twist rate can be SAAMI certified. SAAMI is mostly about the ammo & case and chamber blueprints. Yes they prolly specify a twist rate as well. However, I am sure they could specify a range of twists. How else could manufacturers offer different twist rates in the same caliber over the years? I know they did not go back and get a new SAAMI Certification every time they came out with new twists for 5.56 barrels or 300BLK barrels. I do trust Hornady's ballistics MUCH More than Q's backyard shooting and writing data down like we do. Ever see Hornady's Ballistic lab and undergound ranges? I wonder if Hornady will double down on a 1 in 5 twist. I actually kind of hope they do. I am not convinced 1 in 3 does much more than make a larger spiraling wound cavity. It also actually throws off ballistics at the long ranges as the super fast spiral makes the projectile shift slightly downrange at supersonic long ranges. Q and Faxon spent what a year or so putting out a few thousand 1 in 3 twist. Who cares! Give us both. I really see Q as a guy trying to make things "special" Meaning weird, so that he has a kinda exclusive, a almost Monopolistic setup. Case in point- the silly 18.5 mm weird Muzzle thread. Q makes cans and is very proud of them. (.338 Barrels and Cans have been around a long time with typical US fractional threads.) There was absolutely No need for that 18mm sillyness. Maybe the same thing with 1 in 3, We shall see.
Update: There is MORE to this story, doesn’t look like hornady will pursue the 8.6 ARC. The 8.6 Ammo list is HERE with codes.... eaglerun23.com/blog/f/the-big-ammo-list
I have built both a bolt and a gas gun in 8.6 blackout, if they do an 8.6ARC I will probably build one of them too, I have shot Grendel for a long time, and I have a 6 ARC as well. I love to tinker more as i get closer to retirement.
excellent! id like to try one if its short action!
If I had to guess why Hornady is backing a 1:5 twist rate, I'd say it has to do with bullet material. 1:3 spins so fast that it pretty much requires a solid copper projectile.
Copper is expensive, particularly when you're sending over 300 grains downrange at a time. Lead is 1/4 the cost of copper. A jacketed lead bullet is more profitable to produce, since you know as well as I do that you're not going to get jacketed bullets for 1/4 the cost of copper bullets. Hornady will pocket the difference.
I haven't seen traditional, jacketed copper 8.6 rounds rip themselves apart from a 1:3 twist but I like this theory and I think it has legs. As an ammo manufacturer, Hornady has greater sensitivity to how they can scale production and sell at volume in different product lines, of which they have a whopping 21 for various rifle rounds from Superformance, Critical Defense, Black, Frontier, and so on. If they're pigeonholed into exclusively solid copper projectiles by the very spec of the round, they'd be stuck with higher cost, lower volume ammo right out of the gate and for as long as it took them to figure out some less expensive bonding process or something to make cheaper stuff work. And bear in mind, this is a big, heavy, expensive bullet with a lot of material no matter what, so cost of production differences per round matter even more than for smaller rounds.
Bonded bullets are fine out of 1in3. I'd say Hornady is pushing 1in5 because 1in3 is hard
I finally got my Porq Chop in. Now I need to get some of these manufacturer's ammo in for testing :D
8.6 ARC would probably be an amazing SBR caliber.
Isn't 8" already pretty short?
@@greenchef6 from my perspective it is.
Bolt gun guys: How can I neck this down to make it go faster?
AR guys: How can I neck this up to go slower?
Ya. You got it!! Haha
It was just a small blurb that was easy to miss, but the Shot Show announcement for the Primary Weapons UXR rifle stated that 8.6BLK would be one of the upcoming conversion kits. PWS barrels are proprietary and made in-house, so it doesn't give builders any more options sadly. But I will likely be picking one up and thought it might add to your discussion.
Good info!! I am building a 8.6 on the aero bolt action!
I fn love my 8.6 blk Remington 700 build but it's by far my most expensive gun and most expensive to shoot. I fn love it regardless.
338 arc is going to be dope
@@Problematicbehavior hey! Let’s see!? I have a barrel coming.
ill be building a 8.6bo after my current 20" franken AR project, I just wish the ammo didnt cost so much.
Let me know if you need help! I can also help a little on the discount codes.
yeah i was going to buy some gorilla ammo until i saw they were charging $21 dollars to ship a box lol ,, i just make my own brass and ammo
So it's going to compete against the 338 spectr
without Hornady the 8.6 will just be a wild cat , will i still build one , probably but going to wait. heard Aero precision will be putting out a 8.6 gun and barrels this year
Disagree. Someone else will get it through saami.
i hope so@@EagleRun23
I would probably buy a barrel with 1:5 twist if it was as cheap as the 12”faxon I have
I just stumbled upon this video, I see no other mention of 8.6 ARC anywhere online. Do you happen to have any more info on this cartridge?
@@Thee_Sinner it got smashed. Not happening. Which I am cool with.
I picked up the 338 spectre. Really happy with it. Have several videos and shorts on it. If you search
question is do they make dies for these calibers? or any gauges?
dies for 8.6 blackout, yes, almost everyone now. Check out Sheridan for case gauges. 8.6 ARC is still year + away, Hornady doesnt know i told yall about it yet. literally no one else knows. This is the first video on youtube to mention 8.6 ARC
Faxon and midway have go/no go from PTG. Midway also has Lee dies for it. Midway also had the Faxon Ramage 8.6 barrel on sale.
With testing I have have done, there should be no reason the most common bullets are breaking apart in subsonic applications with a 1:3 twist. So Hornady not being able to manufacture a reliable subsonic bullet is probably not it. Heck, the reason Q went to 1:3 was for the most common bullet types.
The problem probably lies in government regulations with the NFA. Getting out to the most people they would have to be 16" rifle configurations. Unfortunately, a subsonic load for an SBR will be supersonic and possibly breaking apart.
Actually, with the rounds I've seen tested, the powder burn is so rapid with 1:3 twist 8.6 blackout that the bullet actually slows with 16" barrels.
Why does Hornady have to submit the cartridge to SAAMI? Why can't Q do it themselves?
Great question. Calibers must have a sponsor. Only a few of those out there.
Because Kevin is too busy screwing around in Africa to care.
Hornady sets the testing standard, and make the spec ammo for all the labs so all the ammo used to test a new sammi rounds is manufed by Hornady. Even though 8.6 is designed by Q, Hornady makes the ammo used to test it in labs. Theres other companies that can submit too. Like Remington submitted on behalf of AAC at the time the 300 Blk was being developed
q makes a round for specific applications and materials, and then hornady goes behind q's back and submits a different twist rate with a big fu to q???what the hell???
I imagine that was a tough situation. But as of last week. Hornady said not currently pursuing 86ARC
Imagine having to make something that works for everyone not just several handful of people. In order to SAAMI approve anything it has to prove to work all across the board and people tearing apart suppressors with 1:3” is not a good look. Clearly that’s a twist rate issue and honestly the 1:5 makes more since for this cartridge. Now if there was something like 8.6 arc then maybe a 1:3 twist would make sense with nothing but subs. I want a 8.6 blackout to shoot supers for target and maybe even animals but also want to play around with subs and 1:3 seems to make it a little complicated. You aren’t losing much in terms of performance but you also are less likely to have issues with baffle strikes and bullets busting open before they hit the target. Just my opinion on why Hornady said 1:5 and Q was just too ignorant to listen because I’m sure Hornady dropped it because of issues with the twist rate and just didn’t want to make a big deal about it after the fact.
Just finished an 8.6 on a AR10 with a Faxon barrel. If they change configuration for SAAMI I don't care. I'm staying with the 8 6 Blackout and a one in three barrel
I think 8.6 arc in an AR15 would be a hit . It'll probably be made from the Grendel or x39 case .
I messaged Q that they should consider making a hybrid of the case. If they could make .277 Fury into a .338/8.6
Really would like to see other manufactures make a steel case high pressure round like the .277/6.8x51 without Sig Sauer proprietary patents on the barrels and ammo manufacturing.
At this rate it’s a bust if other companies can’t make the ammo or barrels.
Essentially make a 6.5 Creedmoor but with the power of .277 fury, then put a .338/8.6 (or larger) to make it subsonic.
I put together a 12" gas gun and I have the Uintah Precision bolt action upper so I can swap out uppers and only using one lower receiver. I also have 308 uppers for the same lower receiver. So I have four upper receivers that can fit on one lower receiver. A great way to save money.
excellent setup!
How long would that barrel hold up tho with a 1 to 3 twist rate? 🤔
I am at 1000 rounds on my 16”
Idk that anyone would shoot out a hunting gun. That would be decades of hunting use.
Do you have any sources for any of this information?
Yes. None of them agreed to be shared tho. Kinda weird this is not really in my wheelhouse. But I am comfortable sharing what I shared. I even had to pop in edits to get it right.
So Hornady is basically going to commercialize 338 razorback
not as of now, no
I'm almost finished building my 8.6 Blackout with a Faxon 16 inch barrel. I got Starline Brass and Barnes bullets, but where can I find load data for it? I want to go shoot it as soon as I can load some ammo for it. Any ideas?
email me and ill share with you the google sheet some guys put together.
Breaking news, Flash!, This just in, Live reporter on the scene..... Stay tuned.😊
Anything new on getting the 8.6 samme speced
just that its not happening under hornady. rumors someone else will pick it up. Q working on that now. I have not heard anything in a few weeks.
saami won’t approve something with such fast twist rate. That’s the issue with the cartridge. I believe it has a high chance of destabilization because of the twist rate
@@stephenedwards5063 could be true saami approvals are way out of my experience. But I can say I have not seen any destabilization.
We need something like 9X39 but with heavier ammo and a better twist. A shorter cases 350 legend with heavier bullets and faster twist may be it
How about the cutting into breaking news portion.. nice editing buddy. Even made sure he was wearing different clothes. Lol
funny because this is the 3rd time I shot this video, crap kept changing!! had to just run the edits in and let good be good enough.
Leave it up to Hornady to screw things up. They want to have their own twist and caliber so they can take credit for it. Hornady will screw over the little guy and not think twice about it. I refuse to use anything that has Hornady on it. I reload my own ammo, especially after I used some shotgun slug and 308 Hornady ammo that was loaded with squib rounds from the factory. To make things worse they tried blaming me for the messed up factory ammo. That's why I reload all my ammo.
I built an 8.6 a year and a half ago. Killed lots of stuff in Africa last year.
SuperSonic = 👎🏻
Subsonic= 👍🏻
1:3 twist doesn’t matter that much so 1:5 would be fine.
One issue I had during load development was case capacity and powder pressure maintenance because of it. Case was TOO big and subs only need a tiny bit of powder, so the Grendel case idea is VERY attractive!
I’ll definitely build a barrel for a Howa mini if that happens!
ELD 285 factory Hornady @ 1050fps?!?!? Bring it on!
The faster 1:3 twist does offer drastically increased potential to transfer energy with expanding rounds. But I suppose for someone hunting big game, you need more penetration so a setup that transfers energy that rapidly isn't necessary.
8.6 is not saami approved? Interesting. I always figured every commercial available ammo was saami approved
Nope we’re wild cat’n :)
Is it possible SAAMI rejected the submission, forcing Hornady to pull it? Was there some sort of potential safety issue? Keep reporting ER23...haters gonna hate, lol.
Why can’t Gorilla ammo get Sammi approval?
@@e.l.robbins5614 it doesn’t work like that it’s more about the caliber.
If you have to break into your own video that many times you should probably just reshoot the whole video.
@@jacktheaviator4938 we’re doing the best we can.
Info was changing fast then. And it takes a day to film and edit. I either lost a video I know isn’t accurate. Or try to get the best version out asap. Nothing else I could do.
You are watching breaking news 6 months later :)
I hope hornady doesnt ruin it
hornady is out. debateable if we need saami to be successful? but I think someone else is running with it?
I have a upper I would unload! :)
were in our prime! run it! get some Halworx or Aitkens ammo and go hunt it! :)
Round is too expensive for production
Why would Horandy tell this to a no offense but some random small TH-camr?
No references provided and u contradict yourself multiple times.
If you can let me know what was contradictory I can address. I am not typically reporting news like this. So this video was tough to make and get right. I am on this caliber from the get go and consistently making 8.6 blackout videos. I had the first diy build gun. I am helping all the ammo companies, bullet mfg, brass mfg I spoke with a large (very large) rifle mfg Tuesday about their “potential” offerings in 8.6. I didn’t say hornady told me anything. Everyone I spoke with wanted to remain anonymous. Understandably.
@@EagleRun23 where is the reports that Hornaday both submitted and then pulled the submission?
@@Swissk31300BO what sort of report would that be? It’s accurate to the best of my knowledge.
@@EagleRun23 so u want us to trust your “knowledge “ but can’t show us any sources.
U understand then why someone would be skeptical here?
ER23 has been pretty much giving the people the most up to date info on 8.6blk. I have heard the same in the 8.6 facebook group so i trust this info.
It does NOT make sense that only 1 twist rate can be SAAMI certified. SAAMI is mostly about the ammo & case and chamber blueprints. Yes they prolly specify a twist rate as well. However, I am sure they could specify a range of twists. How else could manufacturers offer different twist rates in the same caliber over the years? I know they did not go back and get a new SAAMI Certification every time they came out with new twists for 5.56 barrels or 300BLK barrels. I do trust Hornady's ballistics MUCH More than Q's backyard shooting and writing data down like we do. Ever see Hornady's Ballistic lab and undergound ranges? I wonder if Hornady will double down on a 1 in 5 twist. I actually kind of hope they do. I am not convinced 1 in 3 does much more than make a larger spiraling wound cavity. It also actually throws off ballistics at the long ranges as the super fast spiral makes the projectile shift slightly downrange at supersonic long ranges. Q and Faxon spent what a year or so putting out a few thousand 1 in 3 twist. Who cares! Give us both. I really see Q as a guy trying to make things "special" Meaning weird, so that he has a kinda exclusive, a almost Monopolistic setup. Case in point- the silly 18.5 mm weird Muzzle thread. Q makes cans and is very proud of them. (.338 Barrels and Cans have been around a long time with typical US fractional threads.) There was absolutely No need for that 18mm sillyness. Maybe the same thing with 1 in 3, We shall see.
I sent this comment to some people let me get you an official response. I am not 100% sure on how saami works I don’t want to misspeak.
It's junk people 😅😅😅
I really like it, and the hogs dont! haha