@@carriemckinney341 Not originally (maybe the opposite in terms of build), but as time went on the Munro team is constantly wowed, amazed, and left speechless after analyzing Tesla engineering.
@@kevinplatt they praised model S so much which was developed under Lucid’s boss but reluctant to praise the air or its tech which is basically an evolution of model S to an extent and in turn criticized its inverter size (although that’s some formula e tech packed so well) which is a very clear sign that they’re biased.
@@cengeb he's 70+ & may be "deteriorating" & has the whole company & all their projects on his mind. His staff are only worried about their jobs & the projects they are assigned... By Sandy. What a totally unwarranted, nasty F##kStick you are. I'd tell you to crawl back into the hole you emerged from, but it sighed with relief when you left & closed up. Munro & Associates backfilled it with concrete so you'd stay visible allowing everyone to see what a total Juan Kerr you are.... 🤡🤦
No frunk and no heat pump and still no leading in efficiency and range especially in cold winter weather. Are they joking or are they just out of suppliers?😮🤪
CoP of Heat Pump is upto 3.0 depending on Ambient, not always 3. Especially with r1234yf, below -10C, that starts to diminish rapidly. Tesla still using r134a in Model Y (got an exception from EPA since they perform slightly better than 1234yf but have a much higher Global Warming Potential - GWP). VWAG in EU switching some of their EVs to r744 (CO2) based refrigeration system, CoP > 2 between -10 to -20C Amb in Heat Pump mode (Ambient temp can be compensated by using heat from other sources like motors/electronics to some extent, using Liquid cooled condenser). R744 Operates at much higher pressure, so entire system change (pipes including), also supply chain, service and after market need to be setup accordingly. This could also be a reason, as they may want phase out existing ones for these before the eventual roll out globally. Expect next gen Audi BEVs to have these
Customers claim to have noticed the lack of efficiency that was expected with a heatpump. When you consider that tesla had heat pump issues their first winter and had to collect data before putting out software updates, it makes you wonder how audi was going to do this without any data collection or OTAs. This 1k settlement feels like an attempt to claim the heatpump is only worth 1k and not something that should enable a full car buyback. Situations like this is why all cars should have to report mpge at different temperatures. 32F, 0F, and -40F would tell people a lot about cold weather performance and it should be done to all cars regardless of the fuel type.
It can be more than 3. Depends on the use-case and design. Mutsubishi's ecodan air-to-air pumps can do a COP over 5, (up to 5.5 on a good day). But yes it can get down close to 1 too if the temp diff is really high and the system not well-matched to the use case. As you say, CO2 is a sensible refrigerant so long as the source is not _too_ cold (works great in GSHP) but does need way higher pressure than most others so it's going to be hard to avoid leaks, especially in a car.
I Have both a 2020 Kia Soul EV and a 2023 Ioniq 5 with heat pumps, and they are efficient, when the system has been running for about 5-8 minutes on a -5 Deg C. day I see 500-750watts from my energy consumption display, verses the heat Pump & PTC heater (they both run at startup) which is about 3500watts (3.5KW). Kia have had heat pump since 2016 on the original Soul EV so I likely guess that they have the experience to do it right verses VW.
Hi I have a 2015 VW e Golf and it has a heat pump and works fine but I learn from the car fax that when it was new in 2015 that car had problems with the A/C / heat pump system.
What about air conditioner in MEB platform? I thought that the heat pump was basically an extension of an electric air conditioner, which every needs, with reversing valves. Are they saying that just removing the valves saved them 1000 dollars?
Thanks for Covering this topic again!!! OEM probably need to be offering a Cold Weather Option with simple resistance heaters for cabin heat/defrost in very cold areas. Reduced range, but will function.
That is a terrible idea. These companies are jokes. All cars with heatpumps also have resistive heaters. A car with a heatpump should be designed to switch between the two based on which one is currently more efficient. This is where tesla's technique of using their motors as resistive heaters eliminates the added cost and space of a dedicated resistive heater. In this case, audi is leaving the heatpumps out so your car always uses resistive heat. Tesla also had heatpump issues the first winter some of their cars had them. Tesla had to use their data collection and ability to update car behaviors with OTAs to optimize their heatpump. It is mind boggling that other companies thought they could just drop in heat pumps with some generic rules and magically have it work well. The removal of the heatpump is audi admitting they don't have the expertise to make a heatpump work.
@@pauld3327 Chiming in here…..I think Tesla liquid cools their electric motors? I gather then that Tesla’s octovalve can cycle that heated coolant from the motors to the cabin heating system to supplement the heat pump in very cold weather.
You guys have the best channel on TH-cam. It is so great to see usable and timely information. Thank you so much. I'm retired and in Texas or I might apply to work for you.
Great update. But why do you think the Audi heat pump is so much worse than the Tesla heat pump system that shows such clear advantages. Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated as I know any reasonably designed heat pump should clearly out perform a resistive system. Are Audi/VW that bad at designing a heat pump??? It would be really great to see a video on that. Thanks so much guys.
Thanks for sharing. My understanding is that a heat pump is a refrigeration unit working in reverse. So, chip availability is not the issue. Being honest does seem to be an issue for Audi-VW - again...Is there data on heat pump efficiency on other marcs and models especially when compared with resistive heaters? The elephant in our garage is cold weather impact on battery range. That's the one to crack!
You covered heat pumps and the cold, what about the hot climates? My summers get really hot out here in Western Australia and we use our heat pumps more often to cool than to heat. I imagine that they might work better in one climate than another. How well does the Audi/VW heat pump cool ?
Technology Connections taught me that a heat pump is just an air conditioner in reverse. No way it's a chip shortage issue, unless my AC unit from the 80's was packed with tech.
I had go back and watch the opening to be sure: the article does specifically say “semiconductor shortage.” That does seems a stretch at first blush, but it is possible. Older technology small scale integration analog I/O parts are some of the more affected by the semiconductor supply disruption. The heat pump is definitely requires more control signals than A/C + PTC heater. The VW announcement still seems fishy though.
Presumably the E-tron with the resistive heater still has AC, so I call BS on the claim the removal of the heat pump is due to semiconductor shortages. The AC will still need the motor drive full of semiconductors that would be used with the heat pump.
The expensive part of the system is the compressor + inverter for its motor, and that one needs to be there no matter what to cool the cabin for passenger comfort (AC). The rest of the heat pump stuff is radiator, pipes and valves... cost cutting on the cheap stuff? I do understand the heating the car is not necessary in a lot of places and all year round, but removing it completely? I am not sure if there is something else we are missing, like the compressor in there Q4s is a different type altogether.
Not necessarily. Integrated heat pump system manages where you get heat/cold from and where you want to put heat/cold to. With very connected system like Tesla has, you can move cold/heat in any one of these 4 components: ambient air, cabin, battery and motor+inverter. You can often times see limitations of poorly executed heat pump systems on fast charger in winter when system tries to warm up battery but cannot push warm air to cabin too like Hyudnai Ionic 5 and EV6 did before their update that basically changed to use small PTC when fast charging to heat cabin separately and heat pump focuses on battery. What VW is probably saving money on is battery heating and cooling by converting it to very primitve liquid cooling one, and putting motor and inverter heat also with liquid cooling to ambient through radiator.
Legacy automotive’s unwillingness to abandon the grille and engine look under the hood (and inability to make room for a frunk) speaks to the limitations of their culture.
Great job, Scott! You’re a natural. You are an excellent presenter. The only thing would make it more effective is if you don’t sway or move your body around so much. You seemed a little nervous. Don’t need to be cos you were well prepared and you speak well. Cory has been working out. Way to go! Looking healthier and fit.
I talked to an MG representative about heatpumps today. He claimed their MG4 model with heatpump only gets 5 km (~3mi) more range with the heat pump compared to the model with the PDC heater. I countered that with the remark that there must be something wrong with their heatpump and than he said something interesting. He claims that the heatpump automatically starts heating up the battery when you drive off. That would explain high consumption, especially on short trips. Unless the battery is cold soaked it does not make sense to me to heat the battery with the exception when you are driving to a fast charger. I wonder what your take is on that.
I have had BMW I3 with and without heat pump. Heat pump fitted one heats just as well and cols better too, but I can’t fully estimate range saving as the newer heat pump fitted i3s as also the bigger battery and beefier 184hp engine. The system uses an extremely reliable scroll compressor (inverter you can hear the rpm variation) made by Eaton and 1234yf refrigerant. Works like a clock.
You can compare them by charging to set X percent. Drive around for a bit. Plug it to charge to set X percent. And see on the charger/meter how much more/less the other car took for the same trip on the same day and similar temp and similar driving style.
Residential Heat Pumps have a Defrost Cycle. When in Defrost the system goes into cooling mode, and along with that Electric Strip Heaters come on. So in effect, on a automobile the electrical heaters can be turned themselves to defrost and heat cabin.
Yes, we here use them for heating during winter and cooling during summer. Can naturally be used to remove condensaton too, or vice versa... Saves a great deal in the electric bill compared to direct electric heating (which we have for very cold weather - but down to -20 celsius or -4 fahrenheit the heat pump works quite well). I actually thought every car with a heat pump uses its 2 ways, to heat and to cool.
@@iivaridark6850 the Tesla's do, which is why they developed their multifunction OctoValve heat pump. 1 unit does various tasks in the cabin, battery & I believe motor(s). The VAG units are prossibly less multi purpose??
At one point, Musk was talking about developing a domestic Heat Pump AirCon system, as current tech is very inefficient. So another income stream & clearly a benefit to people with Solar & Battery storage. Also reduces the "dreaded" forthcoming load increase on the grid that 455hats say won't support EV's... Which will take a decade to impact the grid in reality, but only if the utilities DON'T UPGRADE their ageing networks.... And if more people install Solar, Storage & Heat Pumps at home, there won't be as much of a strain. 🤦
There are a lot of Porsche Taycan owners around the US are waiting for replacement valves for the heat pump system in the Taycan, and in one place I saw it stated there are back ups in the factory too blocked by a shortage of heat pump parts. I’ve been waiting almost two months for even an ETA for the replacement valve mine needs. It is odd that so many failed this winter (my dealer had five more in the queue when I went in back in December), but lack of parts is delaying getting them fixed quickly. So, wouldn’t surprise me if the shortages for the Q4 were real too.
Excellent content as usual gentlemen! Suggestion for future episode: Please quantify the approximate range of weight penalties for EVs relative to their ICE counterparts. I think there is a tendency in mainstream reports to exaggerate the extra weight.
Thank you, this was interesting; I had seen something about this and wondered about the rationale. I would think they would want to go back to the drawing board and design a heat pump system that actually performs better. I do understand that will take time; longer, since they are a legacy OEM.
They actually already have that in the works, it's called the meb+ platform. It has an integrated cabin heat pump/ac and battery cooling system, similiar to Tesla's octovalve. Along with additional changes to the motor power electronics and the battery. You can look up the leaked id3 "facelift", it's the id3 on the meb+ platform. Release date for the platform is unknown, but i would guess end of the year.
Thanks for taking sponsors on in order to keep this info free to viewers. I know you would rather not do that but someone has to pay the bills. As to Audi’s BS, it really is amazing how the OEMs don’t seem to have the ability to bring forth the technical prowess that Tesla does in ALL areas of their vehicles. I often think Tesla’s engineers put in just as much skull sweat on something like making a truly efficient heat pump, as they do on the mega castings. Tesla’s culture of freeing engineers to constantly make things better and to dream big, is what sets them apart from all other auto makers. It is the OEM’s culture that is their downfall, not their bottom line.
Maybe the heatpumps didn't work so well when the weather was cold. The efficiency of any heat pump will drop in very cold weather sometimes the COP drops from around 3 to 2 or even less. The VW heat pump used CO2 as a refrigerent, which probably slightly reduced efficiency as well. CO2 heat pumps operate at very high pressures so they have to be extremely robust to be reliable, that probably increased the cost.
@@robertdascoli949 yes heat pump is better than resistive and it should be more than 3 times better. I'm guessing that VW were losing money when they fitted heat pumps.
There is also a fairly narrow temperature range where you can justify the added expense. I think around -5 or -6°C my car stops using the heat pump while when you reach plus 5 or 6 the resistive heater would have to run so little that the heat pump provides little benefit.
The problem is that heat pump(+a/c) is hooked up not only to cabin, but also to battery, inverter and ambient radiator/heat exchanger. A car without "Super manifold" and "Octovalve" may be more efficient for humans, but it will for sure not be good for thermal management of battery. Will they install resistive heater for battery pack for winter? Will they hook up A/C to battery pack for summer? If the answer is yes to both, then they are not making it cheaper. If they answer any of them "no". Then they are offsetting economical costs onto battery pack life.
Great video, as always. Informative and concise. Imagine an 80 year old company who's manufacturing prowess could not solve the problem a 19 year old company could solve in less than 2 years. Are people still saying VW will dominate the EV space?
I live in Minnesota. As an example its anywhere from 0F to -13F this week. I will not buy ANY electric without a heat pump in it unless the car is a dedicated Spring-Fall driver.
Great story, great presentation. One question, how would you (or an owner) check the efficiency of an automobile's heat pump system? Tesla has a new feature where it shows the "deviation" from planned usage when making a trip. This feature will show if a trip used more or less HVAC energy that the car had estimated when navigation was first set, but does not show the actual amount used or even the percentage of total usage that is attributable to the HVAC system. Thank you.
Thank you for the great insight! I have a Skoda Enyaq IV (the best meb model imho), and I didn't include the optional heat pump. I was regretting the decision at first, but I'm glad It didn't waste my money on it in the end!
Wish I had got our TM3 before they switched to a heat pump, as heating is hardly ever needed here, and the HVAC is poor in the summer hot weather when crawling around in congested urban traffic. And it kills efficiency. A regular semi urban trip; winter (15-20 deg) 120 wh/km, summer (30-40 deg) 180 wh/km.
Is it true that a heat pump is still the same AC compressor every car is equipped with, plus a 4 way valve to invert the refrigerant gas flows? If yes, they are charging us 1000 bucks for some valves...
Not necessarily. Because it also affects where you get heat/cold from and where you want to put heat/cold to. With very connected system like Tesla has, you can move cold/heat in any one of these 4 components: ambient air, cabin, battery and motor+inverter. You can often times see limitations of poorly executed heat pump systems on fast charger in winter when system tries to warm up battery but cannot push warm air to cabin too like Hyudnai Ionic 5 and EV6 before their update that basically uses small PTC when fast charging to heat cabin separately and heat pump focuses on battery. What VW is probably saving money on is battery heating and cooling by converting it to very primitve liquid cooling one, and putting motor and inverter heat also with liquid cooling to ambient through radiator.
I have an EV6 and I declined the heat pump as a £1000 extra, yes it saves electricity for 4-5 months of the year, and possibly warms the car initially a bit faster than a PTC heater. When I looked at the potential electricity cost savings I concluded it would take more than 10 years to pay for itself. If you absolutely need the maximum range everyday, and have long very cold winters, then maybe it makes some sense, for me ,I just charge up at home overnight and get a reduced range and efficiency in Winter, and pay an extra £70-£80 per year for my electricity. Also, less to go wrong.
Battery lifespan will also suffer. Are they going to put PTC into batteries too? And separate A/C for batteries too? Ambient heat exchanger, cabin, battery, inveter and motor all need to be connected to same thermal management system for best efficiency. Anyone who chooses otherwise will definitely feel the consequences of that compromise.
I agree with you regarding the real reason that they axed the heat pump. However, I can tell you as someone who is evolved in the automotive chain, there are definitely still significant logistical issues for obtaining loads of different materials external to the "chip shortage". I am certain there are issues is getting enough of certain parts of the heat pump. In Europe, we have the similar issue with domestic use heat pump components as well due to the energy shortage and people frantically trying to get one. The current wait time for a domestic unit is over 1 year!
@@4literv6 Maybe they get priority. BYD definitely gets priority from Chinese makers. I can only tell you what European makers face. I cannot speak to what happens in the US.
@@pablomax9376 why would 2 companies who combined for just over 3,100,000 total unit's moved in all of 2022 globally. Both founded in 2003. Somehow get priority over global behemoths with multiple decades and in Ford's case over a century of proven ordering from a supplier? 🤔 Just does not make any business sense right? Something else is at play here. Imo it's lying about total demand, and demand for anything with an engine in it. Ice sales since 2017 as a whole when you back out evs&hybrids? Are down 30-45% across most large oems in 2022 vs 2017.
@@4literv6 Sorry, but you do not understand how logistics and contracts work. TESLA organizes a lot of prices with suppliers for things they use. The aluminum they use for example is not the same alloy used in other cars. They negotiated pricing a long time before others wanted to use that alloy in amounts based on their expected shipments. Other auto makers are not able to get orders at those same foundries currently. Heat pumps are niche for cars. It does not matter how many cars VAG makes. Suppliers only care how many of the thing they sell will be bought. Given that heat pumps are installed in like 0,1% of their cars.. why the hell would a company give them priority? There are a limited number of suppliers who make auto-grade heatpump components. Telsa buys more than all other makers combined.
So have you performed any testing to confirm that it’s a great feature in an EV or not? You said that VW owners said it didn’t make a difference. Is that because their design is not good?
Yes. The VAG design seems to be poor for some reason. Heatpumps in general are a very good idea for EV efficiency (and cabin comfort - you have to have a heatpump if you want cooling as well as heating).
N.B. Virtually every vehicle have heat-pumps. In non-EV's they are used to cool the cabin air. The only new here is that in an EV you can also use it to heat the cabin. This is not at all any new way of using heat-pumps. For at least 30 years now any air-to-air heat-pump for inhouse use is working this way.
Aww, I so wish that was longer. That had shades of Dieselgate again but without the Diesel and the NOx emissions, and I could almost see Scott gunning for more. Basically, you caught VW/Audi with their pants down again. And I wish you could have explained, to people who don't realise it, how a properly designed heat-pump system is so effcient compared to a resistive wire heating system. Yes, you talked about COP [co-effcient of performance] of 3 from the heat-pump as against 1 for the conventional resistive wire, but I'm fairly sure that a lot of people don't get that advantage, because it is never properly explained. I'm sure Scott is up for an explanation. 😇 Btw, I have a particular interest because I have a VW ID3 leased before the heat-pump version became available. And presumably now, is no longer available.
You are only talking about the US-spec Q4, where the heat-pump was always standard. This is not the case in other parts of the world, for example here in Europe/Norway, where the heat-pump always has been optional. My 2023 Q4 45 Quattro does not have a heat-pump and manages the winter totally fine.
@@gregbailey45 They've been designing thermal system for cars for decades, including heatpumps, because that's how all aircon works. They should be able to deal with this - it's not rocket science.
Question regarding the "Sexy Buttons" aren't you concerned about safety as it writes to the bus? Usually the scan my Tesla ODB stuff is passive and just reading. But writing to it without the UI as kind of "safety layer" makes me think about it. What if this thing writes something critical to the bus? Like airbag deployment?
Actually even Scan My Tesla sends CAN messages. I don't trust any device on my CAN network that doesn't need to be there. Just because currently there isn't any exploit for this type of devices today, it doesn't mean there won't be one tomorrow. It already is a very hard challenge to secure CAN network of a car (like Range Rover tailgate fiasco) and I don't want to make it easier for thieves with installing Chinese made wireless connection CAN transmitter into my car.
Is a heat pump still neccecary it the entire power train is effecient enough to make lees heat than is needed to make the heat pump do it's work? Or like the powertrain isn't temperature sensetive
Scott is absolutely right. There has been an independent test by a company named NextMove in Germany and they tested an ID-4 with and without a heatpump and it made literally no difference. VW group's heatpump is inefficient to make any difference. Tesla must have gone through R&D and came to the same conclusion that's why they ended up with Octovalve!
Do you guys know how much btu a cooling/heating system make in a typical car? I wonder if the poor efficiency is due to too small of a condenser or the lack of airflow. House heatpumps needs a lot of air in cold days to produce heat because it can only catches a little. Also, everytime it needs to defrost, you're throwing energy outside so if the car's condenser is not protected from the snow/rain/slush, it must get iced up very quickly.
Car heating is typically 1-4kW depending how big it is and how cold it is outside. You'll have to ask the internet what that is in 'old money' :-) The heat source in a car is the motors/inverter/charger/battery. Maybe some models can use the radiator and fan to get heat from outside air when parked-up, but I suspect that option is often simply not implemented?
As an HVAC service tech I have always defined a heat pump as a refrigeration machine that has a 'Reversing Valve" in the refrigerant piping system. Do automotive heat pumps use a 'Reversing Valve' or do they just redirect the thermal management fluid to the 'hot' or the 'cold' heat exchanger with the fluid control valves (Octo Valve)?
I think Munro mentions this in their video talking about the octovalve. My remembrance is that the valve reverses the flow of heat or cold depending on the control setting. So with my limited understanding, I don’t think there is a separate heat pump reversing valve?
@@nickmcconnell1291 I would also think that there is no reverse valve but actually when I tried changing temperature from max heat to max cooling you can hear the refrigerant decompress in system to change direction. But that may be my overinterpetation of sounds. I think it would make sense to still reverse the flow in particular circumstances, especially that it doesn't increase the price of system that much, right?
@@darekmistrz4364 Well the octovalve is a rotating valve something like how a wankel rotary engine works. There is a central rotating shaft with protrusions that seal at certain points and send various fluids in different directions depending on whether it needs to heat or cool something. If you are interested look up the TH-cam Channel for “Munro Live” searching for “octovalve”. In one of these vids they do a CT scan showing how the interior of the valve looks/works. It is this valve that reverses the flow of the heat pump fluids I think, rather than a standard reversing valve which can wear out. You indeed are probably hearing the reversing of the fluids as this valve changes positions.
@@nickmcconnell1291 Fluids are not compressable and unless there is a lot of air in that system, I think reversing flow of coolant shouldn't make so much sounds. I already saw that octovalve video. I think heat pump is directly connected to evaporator and condenser in the cabin through the octovalve. You can see that in Munroe's "Model Y E17" at 5:55 and in "Model Y E23" same timestamp. If it would be liquid, it would be basically two tubes and one heat exchanger - you wouldn't need two sets of tubes and heat exchangers.
@@darekmistrz4364 You know more than I do about this obviously. Sorry I don’t know what you might be hearing. I am waiting on my Cybertruck. Maybe I’ll learn something then? 😜
Whats actually the difference between having a heatpump or not ? I think, the compressor, the heat exchanger and so on must be there anyway because of the air condition. So maybe just a few valves ?!?
Not necessarily. Integrated heat pump system manages where you get heat/cold from and where you want to put heat/cold to. With very connected system like Tesla has, you can move cold/heat in any one of these 4 components: ambient air, cabin, battery and motor+inverter. You can often times see limitations of poorly executed heat pump systems on fast charger in winter when system tries to warm up battery but cannot push warm air to cabin too like Hyudnai Ionic 5 and EV6 did before their update that basically changed to use small PTC when fast charging to heat cabin separately and heat pump focuses on battery. What VW is probably saving money on is battery heating and cooling by converting it to very primitve liquid cooling one, and putting motor and inverter heat also with liquid cooling to ambient through radiator.
Great Job, as usual! I offer an idea for a future segment. What are the differences between ICE, Plugin Hybrid, Hybrid, and EV? Mainly on your videos and our driving patterns, I would certainly consider an EV for one of our vehicles; I don't think a Hybrid would make sense, given the complexity.
Maybe it's a good idea to also point out that this heat pump system runs on R744, or CO2. In theory these are the most efficient in cold conditions, but due to the operating pressures most expensive units. However, they struggled with meb software so much that they worked on basic functionality for years and didn't get around to optimizing efficiency yet. So it's an expensive unit running not optimized and is also relatively inefficient in hot conditions too. Which causes the cars to struggle in warmer markets (like California). I support your theory, even though I am saddened that vw didn't figure it out in time to deliver a product that could have been great but ultimately wasn't.
_Something_ decides which electrically-actuated valves to operate according to whether the cabin needs to be heated or cooled. Even if the 'something' is just a task running in a central computer system, chip(s) will still be needed to receive and respond to the commands issued by the climate control system.
When your heat pump comes with a Canada goose jacket you can have conversations about efficiency while your shivering... Nobody in a cold climate is using a heat pump because they suck.
Why do vehicle heat pumps add so much more complexity than residential heat pumps? In a residential unit, the difference between a heat pump and an air conditioner is a single reversing valve. Is it because you have to route heat/cold 4 ways between radiator, motor, battery and passenger compartment? Surely there would be some incentive for a company like Bosch to come out with a compact system like Tesla has that all OEMs could use which is not much more expensive than a regular heat pump?
I would assume that a heat pump and its associated plumbing also adds additional WEIGHT compared to a simple resistive heater. So $1000 for additional service complexity, added weight, and maintenance. Using 5 lines to draw a triangle.
It seems like they were talking about battery temperature management, not cabin conditioning, otherwise they couldn’t replace the heat pump with a resistance heater.
Adding a heat pump does not magically increase efficiency, it is a part and parcel of EV powertrain heating and cooling. Below ten degrees a heatpump becomes useless quite quickly. As such, all EV's using it also have resistive heaters. As MB has proven, a well designed ICE inspired heating and cooling system that includes not only cabin but also powertrain systems combined can make the addition of a heat pump with its added cost and complexity unnecessary.
heatpumps (in cars) are not intrinsically useless - they are vital in fact for making efficient vehicles. Plenty of manufacturers have done this well (Kia/Hyundai, Nissan for a start, Tesla were late to this but I presume their's works well too). I'm not sure what VW have done exactly, but it's clearly not very good.
VW said it was due to the Chip shortage. I call ir BS. What extra chips you need if the car already has an Air conditioner In place? The compressor and inverter/control board are already there. All you need for it to have a heat pump is adding a reversing valve.
Maybe there would be an advantage in having a relatively small range extender ICE engine in an EV to provide both heat and top up charging. Wouldn't need to be more than about 500cc and doesn't need to drive the vehicle itself but would be useful in cold climates to keep the battery and cabin warm and to provide enough current for constant speed highway cruising at up to 60mph through 1 electric motor. Perhaps a turbo or supercharger could be used to reduce the size of the engine.
Oh yeah, I need that additional complexity, additional weight, additional maintenance, additional fire risk, additional price increase and risk of carbon monoxide poisoning when heating up a car in garage. Thanks but no thanks
@@aussie2uGA My Model Y LR heats fine even well below 0 degrees F in Minnesota winters (better than my Subaru Forester). It always helps to precondition and turn on climate control before leaving. The the car then gets better efficiency and max regen.
@@csf1757 - My 2015 Nissan Leaf has heated seats & steering wheel as well as the heat pump. The heat pump seldom gets used as the first two are more than adequate for 'comfy' !
So the heat pump was not delivering the range benefit that was claimed and which justified the 1k component of the vehicle price. Is this indicative of the situation for all BEVs or did Audi just design a poor heat pump ?
Thanks!
Thank you!
Munro is one of my go-to sources for honest reporting.
Where else would you get information like this?
@@kevinplatt Gordon Johnsen
I like their reporting too but it seems a little biased towards Tesla.
@@carriemckinney341 Not originally (maybe the opposite in terms of build), but as time went on the Munro team is constantly wowed, amazed, and left speechless after analyzing Tesla engineering.
@@kevinplatt they praised model S so much which was developed under Lucid’s boss but reluctant to praise the air or its tech which is basically an evolution of model S to an extent and in turn criticized its inverter size (although that’s some formula e tech packed so well) which is a very clear sign that they’re biased.
Thank you Cory and Scott for an excellent analysis!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Cory and Scott are a wonderful Munroe Team. Love the explanations in response to questions from TH-camrs! Please keep them coming.
Will do!
@@MunroLive much better than the old guy angry at the world, and stammering like he can't think while talking...
@@cengeb he's 70+ & may be "deteriorating" & has the whole company & all their projects on his mind. His staff are only worried about their jobs & the projects they are assigned... By Sandy.
What a totally unwarranted, nasty F##kStick you are.
I'd tell you to crawl back into the hole you emerged from, but it sighed with relief when you left & closed up. Munro & Associates backfilled it with concrete so you'd stay visible allowing everyone to see what a total Juan Kerr you are.... 🤡🤦
Corey and Scott a great team! Well done you guys keep it up. Thanks for another great one.!
Our pleasure!
Why was the heat pump underperforming? I'd love to see a post mortem on what integration or performance compromises caused it's issues.
I thought i missed it. Nope!
Has VW been taken for a ride by their heatpump supplier? 🤔
That would be a great idea. A teardown with hardware and software design flaws?
No frunk and no heat pump and still no leading in efficiency and range especially in cold winter weather. Are they joking or are they just out of suppliers?😮🤪
No octovalve
CoP of Heat Pump is upto 3.0 depending on Ambient, not always 3. Especially with r1234yf, below -10C, that starts to diminish rapidly. Tesla still using r134a in Model Y (got an exception from EPA since they perform slightly better than 1234yf but have a much higher Global Warming Potential - GWP). VWAG in EU switching some of their EVs to r744 (CO2) based refrigeration system, CoP > 2 between -10 to -20C Amb in Heat Pump mode (Ambient temp can be compensated by using heat from other sources like motors/electronics to some extent, using Liquid cooled condenser). R744 Operates at much higher pressure, so entire system change (pipes including), also supply chain, service and after market need to be setup accordingly. This could also be a reason, as they may want phase out existing ones for these before the eventual roll out globally. Expect next gen Audi BEVs to have these
Customers claim to have noticed the lack of efficiency that was expected with a heatpump. When you consider that tesla had heat pump issues their first winter and had to collect data before putting out software updates, it makes you wonder how audi was going to do this without any data collection or OTAs. This 1k settlement feels like an attempt to claim the heatpump is only worth 1k and not something that should enable a full car buyback.
Situations like this is why all cars should have to report mpge at different temperatures. 32F, 0F, and -40F would tell people a lot about cold weather performance and it should be done to all cars regardless of the fuel type.
@@_PatrickO All cars should also report mpge at highway speed
@Donovan Lewis mine says r134a 2023.
It can be more than 3. Depends on the use-case and design. Mutsubishi's ecodan air-to-air pumps can do a COP over 5, (up to 5.5 on a good day). But yes it can get down close to 1 too if the temp diff is really high and the system not well-matched to the use case. As you say, CO2 is a sensible refrigerant so long as the source is not _too_ cold (works great in GSHP) but does need way higher pressure than most others so it's going to be hard to avoid leaks, especially in a car.
I Have both a 2020 Kia Soul EV and a 2023 Ioniq 5 with heat pumps, and they are efficient, when the system has been running for about 5-8 minutes on a -5 Deg C. day I see 500-750watts from my energy consumption display, verses the heat Pump & PTC heater (they both run at startup) which is about 3500watts (3.5KW). Kia have had heat pump since 2016 on the original Soul EV so I likely guess that they have the experience to do it right verses VW.
Hi I have a 2015 VW e Golf and it has a heat pump and works fine but I learn from the car fax that when it was new in 2015 that car had problems with the A/C / heat pump system.
My eNiro with a heat pump works fine in the UK. Uses a bit more energy when it’s -5 to +6 centigrade. On a longer run it soon stabilises.
What about air conditioner in MEB platform? I thought that the heat pump was basically an extension of an electric air conditioner, which every needs, with reversing valves. Are they saying that just removing the valves saved them 1000 dollars?
Thanks for Covering this topic again!!! OEM probably need to be offering a Cold Weather Option with simple resistance heaters for cabin heat/defrost in very cold areas. Reduced range, but will function.
That is a terrible idea. These companies are jokes. All cars with heatpumps also have resistive heaters. A car with a heatpump should be designed to switch between the two based on which one is currently more efficient. This is where tesla's technique of using their motors as resistive heaters eliminates the added cost and space of a dedicated resistive heater. In this case, audi is leaving the heatpumps out so your car always uses resistive heat.
Tesla also had heatpump issues the first winter some of their cars had them. Tesla had to use their data collection and ability to update car behaviors with OTAs to optimize their heatpump.
It is mind boggling that other companies thought they could just drop in heat pumps with some generic rules and magically have it work well.
The removal of the heatpump is audi admitting they don't have the expertise to make a heatpump work.
@@_PatrickO what do you mean when you say that Tesla is using the 'electric motor as resistive heater' ?
@@pauld3327 Chiming in here…..I think Tesla liquid cools their electric motors? I gather then that Tesla’s octovalve can cycle that heated coolant from the motors to the cabin heating system to supplement the heat pump in very cold weather.
@@pauld3327 the motors get hot when they are doing work. A few percent of inefficiency means heat available to be pumped into the cabin.
@@gregbailey45 Thanks, I didn't know about that.
You guys have the best channel on TH-cam. It is so great to see usable and timely information. Thank you so much. I'm retired and in Texas or I might apply to work for you.
Thanks, James!
Great update. But why do you think the Audi heat pump is so much worse than the Tesla heat pump system that shows such clear advantages. Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated as I know any reasonably designed heat pump should clearly out perform a resistive system. Are Audi/VW that bad at designing a heat pump??? It would be really great to see a video on that. Thanks so much guys.
Thanks for sharing. My understanding is that a heat pump is a refrigeration unit working in reverse. So, chip availability is not the issue. Being honest does seem to be an issue for Audi-VW - again...Is there data on heat pump efficiency on other marcs and models especially when compared with resistive heaters? The elephant in our garage is cold weather impact on battery range. That's the one to crack!
You covered heat pumps and the cold, what about the hot climates? My summers get really hot out here in Western Australia and we use our heat pumps more often to cool than to heat. I imagine that they might work better in one climate than another. How well does the Audi/VW heat pump cool ?
Technology Connections taught me that a heat pump is just an air conditioner in reverse. No way it's a chip shortage issue, unless my AC unit from the 80's was packed with tech.
Cost cutting measure.
But the air conditioner does not have the 8 valves afaik.
My house has has heat pumps for 8+ years. But a heat pump FOR A FRUNK is very new. Oh! VW/WAUDI don't got no Frunk. Then they don't get FRUNKENSTEIN!
I had go back and watch the opening to be sure: the article does specifically say “semiconductor shortage.” That does seems a stretch at first blush, but it is possible. Older technology small scale integration analog I/O parts are some of the more affected by the semiconductor supply disruption. The heat pump is definitely requires more control signals than A/C + PTC heater. The VW announcement still seems fishy though.
@@wtmayhew VW is fishy as a fish market.
THANKS CORY,SCOTT ERIC AND THE MUNRO TEAM…WE APPRECIATE IT TOO 🤗💚💚💚😊😊
Great video, very informative and it is nice to get real honest information (no marketing spin). Keep up the great work team Munro.
Thanks! Will do!
Presumably the E-tron with the resistive heater still has AC, so I call BS on the claim the removal of the heat pump is due to semiconductor shortages. The AC will still need the motor drive full of semiconductors that would be used with the heat pump.
The expensive part of the system is the compressor + inverter for its motor, and that one needs to be there no matter what to cool the cabin for passenger comfort (AC). The rest of the heat pump stuff is radiator, pipes and valves... cost cutting on the cheap stuff? I do understand the heating the car is not necessary in a lot of places and all year round, but removing it completely?
I am not sure if there is something else we are missing, like the compressor in there Q4s is a different type altogether.
Not necessarily. Integrated heat pump system manages where you get heat/cold from and where you want to put heat/cold to. With very connected system like Tesla has, you can move cold/heat in any one of these 4 components: ambient air, cabin, battery and motor+inverter. You can often times see limitations of poorly executed heat pump systems on fast charger in winter when system tries to warm up battery but cannot push warm air to cabin too like Hyudnai Ionic 5 and EV6 did before their update that basically changed to use small PTC when fast charging to heat cabin separately and heat pump focuses on battery. What VW is probably saving money on is battery heating and cooling by converting it to very primitve liquid cooling one, and putting motor and inverter heat also with liquid cooling to ambient through radiator.
Great! Is there a method how to identify the presence of a heat pump in other vehicles - i.e. Skoda Enyaq?
LMAO the face Corey makes when Scott says that it is his favourite topic. Scott you are great!
Legacy automotive’s unwillingness to abandon the grille and engine look under the hood (and inability to make room for a frunk) speaks to the limitations of their culture.
I love seeing a split second behind the scenes before you guys start. Scott's 'hi' is super cute too! Good work with the edit!
Thanks so much!!
Great job, Scott! You’re a natural. You are an excellent presenter. The only thing would make it more effective is if you don’t sway or move your body around so much. You seemed a little nervous. Don’t need to be cos you were well prepared and you speak well.
Cory has been working out. Way to go! Looking healthier and fit.
Might as well ask Elvis to not shake.
Low on gas strut chips, too, Audi?
I talked to an MG representative about heatpumps today. He claimed their MG4 model with heatpump only gets 5 km (~3mi) more range with the heat pump compared to the model with the PDC heater. I countered that with the remark that there must be something wrong with their heatpump and than he said something interesting.
He claims that the heatpump automatically starts heating up the battery when you drive off. That would explain high consumption, especially on short trips.
Unless the battery is cold soaked it does not make sense to me to heat the battery with the exception when you are driving to a fast charger. I wonder what your take is on that.
I have had BMW I3 with and without heat pump. Heat pump fitted one heats just as well and cols better too, but I can’t fully estimate range saving as the newer heat pump fitted i3s as also the bigger battery and beefier 184hp engine. The system uses an extremely reliable scroll compressor (inverter you can hear the rpm variation) made by Eaton and 1234yf refrigerant. Works like a clock.
You can compare them by charging to set X percent. Drive around for a bit. Plug it to charge to set X percent. And see on the charger/meter how much more/less the other car took for the same trip on the same day and similar temp and similar driving style.
Residential Heat Pumps have a Defrost Cycle. When in Defrost the system goes into cooling mode, and along with that Electric Strip Heaters come on. So in effect, on a automobile the electrical heaters can be turned themselves to defrost and heat cabin.
Yes, we here use them for heating during winter and cooling during summer. Can naturally be used to remove condensaton too, or vice versa... Saves a great deal in the electric bill compared to direct electric heating (which we have for very cold weather - but down to -20 celsius or -4 fahrenheit the heat pump works quite well).
I actually thought every car with a heat pump uses its 2 ways, to heat and to cool.
@@iivaridark6850 the Tesla's do, which is why they developed their multifunction OctoValve heat pump. 1 unit does various tasks in the cabin, battery & I believe motor(s). The VAG units are prossibly less multi purpose??
At one point, Musk was talking about developing a domestic Heat Pump AirCon system, as current tech is very inefficient. So another income stream & clearly a benefit to people with Solar & Battery storage. Also reduces the "dreaded" forthcoming load increase on the grid that 455hats say won't support EV's... Which will take a decade to impact the grid in reality, but only if the utilities DON'T UPGRADE their ageing networks.... And if more people install Solar, Storage & Heat Pumps at home, there won't be as much of a strain. 🤦
Ask Munro is a great segment really like it!
There are a lot of Porsche Taycan owners around the US are waiting for replacement valves for the heat pump system in the Taycan, and in one place I saw it stated there are back ups in the factory too blocked by a shortage of heat pump parts. I’ve been waiting almost two months for even an ETA for the replacement valve mine needs. It is odd that so many failed this winter (my dealer had five more in the queue when I went in back in December), but lack of parts is delaying getting them fixed quickly. So, wouldn’t surprise me if the shortages for the Q4 were real too.
They have to have air conditioning so it is only a matter of redirecting the flows to different pipes. What chips that would be in short supply?
Thanks guys
Excellent content as usual gentlemen! Suggestion for future episode: Please quantify the approximate range of weight penalties for EVs relative to their ICE counterparts. I think there is a tendency in mainstream reports to exaggerate the extra weight.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Scott, you are the HAPPIEST dude on the planet!
Thank you, this was interesting; I had seen something about this and wondered about the rationale. I would think they would want to go back to the drawing board and design a heat pump system that actually performs better. I do understand that will take time; longer, since they are a legacy OEM.
They actually already have that in the works, it's called the meb+ platform. It has an integrated cabin heat pump/ac and battery cooling system, similiar to Tesla's octovalve. Along with additional changes to the motor power electronics and the battery. You can look up the leaked id3 "facelift", it's the id3 on the meb+ platform. Release date for the platform is unknown, but i would guess end of the year.
FASCINATING ! Thank you....
Thanks for taking sponsors on in order to keep this info free to viewers. I know you would rather not do that but someone has to pay the bills.
As to Audi’s BS, it really is amazing how the OEMs don’t seem to have the ability to bring forth the technical prowess that Tesla does in ALL areas of their vehicles. I often think Tesla’s engineers put in just as much skull sweat on something like making a truly efficient heat pump, as they do on the mega castings. Tesla’s culture of freeing engineers to constantly make things better and to dream big, is what sets them apart from all other auto makers.
It is the OEM’s culture that is their downfall, not their bottom line.
Yes Tesla has to learn still a lot!What a mindblowing crazy good this Audi is!
Did you all every measure the performance of the octovalve vs. the old resistive heating unit in the Model 3? That would be a good video.
That’s not the business they’re in.
It's more.
Efficient, that is...
@@gregbailey45 what we do without you?
@@fredbloggs5902 what business do you think they're in?
@@GerardPinzone cluelessness confirmed
Blocked
Maybe the heatpumps didn't work so well when the weather was cold. The efficiency of any heat pump will drop in very cold weather sometimes the COP drops from around 3 to 2 or even less. The VW heat pump used CO2 as a refrigerent, which probably slightly reduced efficiency as well. CO2 heat pumps operate at very high pressures so they have to be extremely robust to be reliable, that probably increased the cost.
Isn't the COP of resistance heat a 1? Therefore, it's better than resistive heat in every instance?
@robertdascoli949 except for reasons mentioned above.. complying with regs is hard too
@@robertdascoli949 yes heat pump is better than resistive and it should be more than 3 times better. I'm guessing that VW were losing money when they fitted heat pumps.
Volkswagen also has a software problem. They preheated the battery EVERY time you drive. Crazy.
@@robertdascoli949 Heat pump’s COP could go below 1 in some condition, and defrost could be required which is negative COP.
Another great video, thanks guys! Hi Sandy!
Hey there!
Thank you.
You're welcome!
Great video, now I would love to know, why is the heat pump not performing well? What has Audi and VW done wrong to nullify the heatpump.
There is also a fairly narrow temperature range where you can justify the added expense. I think around -5 or -6°C my car stops using the heat pump while when you reach plus 5 or 6 the resistive heater would have to run so little that the heat pump provides little benefit.
The problem is that heat pump(+a/c) is hooked up not only to cabin, but also to battery, inverter and ambient radiator/heat exchanger. A car without "Super manifold" and "Octovalve" may be more efficient for humans, but it will for sure not be good for thermal management of battery. Will they install resistive heater for battery pack for winter? Will they hook up A/C to battery pack for summer? If the answer is yes to both, then they are not making it cheaper. If they answer any of them "no". Then they are offsetting economical costs onto battery pack life.
@@hoppingrabbit9849 I see we have an thermal efficiency expert here. If only Tesla gave you the job to fix their very complex and inefficient system
This guy Scott is so happy, its almost insulting to normal people 🤣
Great video, as always. Informative and concise.
Imagine an 80 year old company who's manufacturing prowess could not solve the problem a 19 year old company could solve in less than 2 years. Are people still saying VW will dominate the EV space?
I live in Minnesota. As an example its anywhere from 0F to -13F this week. I will not buy ANY electric without a heat pump in it unless the car is a dedicated Spring-Fall driver.
Great story, great presentation. One question, how would you (or an owner) check the efficiency of an automobile's heat pump system? Tesla has a new feature where it shows the "deviation" from planned usage when making a trip. This feature will show if a trip used more or less HVAC energy that the car had estimated when navigation was first set, but does not show the actual amount used or even the percentage of total usage that is attributable to the HVAC system. Thank you.
Thank you for the great insight! I have a Skoda Enyaq IV (the best meb model imho), and I didn't include the optional heat pump. I was regretting the decision at first, but I'm glad It didn't waste my money on it in the end!
The cheap hard plastic door armrest puts me off.
Wish I had got our TM3 before they switched to a heat pump, as heating is hardly ever needed here, and the HVAC is poor in the summer hot weather when crawling around in congested urban traffic. And it kills efficiency. A regular semi urban trip; winter (15-20 deg) 120 wh/km, summer (30-40 deg) 180 wh/km.
Great topic, please do one on Tesla S superb performance in cold weather in Norway!!! Bet it has to do with their heat pump...
I enjoy these HVAC discussions. I wondered how well these high pressure pumps would perform.
Is it true that a heat pump is still the same AC compressor every car is equipped with, plus a 4 way valve to invert the refrigerant gas flows? If yes, they are charging us 1000 bucks for some valves...
Not necessarily. Because it also affects where you get heat/cold from and where you want to put heat/cold to. With very connected system like Tesla has, you can move cold/heat in any one of these 4 components: ambient air, cabin, battery and motor+inverter. You can often times see limitations of poorly executed heat pump systems on fast charger in winter when system tries to warm up battery but cannot push warm air to cabin too like Hyudnai Ionic 5 and EV6 before their update that basically uses small PTC when fast charging to heat cabin separately and heat pump focuses on battery. What VW is probably saving money on is battery heating and cooling by converting it to very primitve liquid cooling one, and putting motor and inverter heat also with liquid cooling to ambient through radiator.
I have an EV6 and I declined the heat pump as a £1000 extra, yes it saves electricity for 4-5 months of the year, and possibly warms the car initially a bit faster than a PTC heater.
When I looked at the potential electricity cost savings I concluded it would take more than 10 years to pay for itself.
If you absolutely need the maximum range everyday, and have long very cold winters, then maybe it makes some sense, for me ,I just charge up at home overnight and get a reduced range and efficiency in Winter, and pay an extra £70-£80 per year for my electricity. Also, less to go wrong.
Battery lifespan will also suffer. Are they going to put PTC into batteries too? And separate A/C for batteries too? Ambient heat exchanger, cabin, battery, inveter and motor all need to be connected to same thermal management system for best efficiency. Anyone who chooses otherwise will definitely feel the consequences of that compromise.
I ordered my Enyaq IV80x without a heat pump which in Ireland's temperate climate is a waste of money, I went for a tow hitch instead.
Sandy gave me quite the scare there. Like the ghost of Chistmas Past showing up in the middle of the video.
Is the heat pump not also used in Battery management to insure the optimal temperature of the battery in different conditions?
Yeah it is. Getting rid of heat pump will definitely shorten lifespan of those batteries from thermal perspective
When you say "heat pump" are you talking about a manifold heat exchanger ? or a fluid pump.
I agree with you regarding the real reason that they axed the heat pump. However, I can tell you as someone who is evolved in the automotive chain, there are definitely still significant logistical issues for obtaining loads of different materials external to the "chip shortage". I am certain there are issues is getting enough of certain parts of the heat pump.
In Europe, we have the similar issue with domestic use heat pump components as well due to the energy shortage and people frantically trying to get one. The current wait time for a domestic unit is over 1 year!
Interesting, why are tesla and byd able to grow so succesfully yoy in comparison then? 🤔
Maybe because Tesla is doing everything (except chips) in house?
@@4literv6 Maybe they get priority. BYD definitely gets priority from Chinese makers. I can only tell you what European makers face. I cannot speak to what happens in the US.
@@pablomax9376 why would 2 companies who combined for just over 3,100,000 total unit's moved in all of 2022 globally. Both founded in 2003. Somehow get priority over global behemoths with multiple decades and in Ford's case over a century of proven ordering from a supplier? 🤔
Just does not make any business sense right? Something else is at play here. Imo it's lying about total demand, and demand for anything with an engine in it. Ice sales since 2017 as a whole when you back out evs&hybrids? Are down 30-45% across most large oems in 2022 vs 2017.
@@4literv6 Sorry, but you do not understand how logistics and contracts work.
TESLA organizes a lot of prices with suppliers for things they use. The aluminum they use for example is not the same alloy used in other cars. They negotiated pricing a long time before others wanted to use that alloy in amounts based on their expected shipments. Other auto makers are not able to get orders at those same foundries currently.
Heat pumps are niche for cars. It does not matter how many cars VAG makes. Suppliers only care how many of the thing they sell will be bought. Given that heat pumps are installed in like 0,1% of their cars.. why the hell would a company give them priority?
There are a limited number of suppliers who make auto-grade heatpump components. Telsa buys more than all other makers combined.
Man Scott is insanely charismatic. I strive to be like him.
Obviously manic depressive….. comes to work with a big smile on his face then when forced to leave becomes sullen. 😂
So have you performed any testing to confirm that it’s a great feature in an EV or not? You said that VW owners said it didn’t make a difference. Is that because their design is not good?
Yes. The VAG design seems to be poor for some reason. Heatpumps in general are a very good idea for EV efficiency (and cabin comfort - you have to have a heatpump if you want cooling as well as heating).
N.B. Virtually every vehicle have heat-pumps. In non-EV's they are used to cool the cabin air. The only new here is that in an EV you can also use it to heat the cabin. This is not at all any new way of using heat-pumps. For at least 30 years now any air-to-air heat-pump for inhouse use is working this way.
I have a 2021 audi etron and when its winter I lose about 20 miles range when i put the heat on. Dont know about Q4 s.
any detail on why it does underperform?
Aww, I so wish that was longer. That had shades of Dieselgate again but without the Diesel and the NOx emissions, and I could almost see Scott gunning for more. Basically, you caught VW/Audi with their pants down again. And I wish you could have explained, to people who don't realise it, how a properly designed heat-pump system is so effcient compared to a resistive wire heating system. Yes, you talked about COP [co-effcient of performance] of 3 from the heat-pump as against 1 for the conventional resistive wire, but I'm fairly sure that a lot of people don't get that advantage, because it is never properly explained. I'm sure Scott is up for an explanation. 😇
Btw, I have a particular interest because I have a VW ID3 leased before the heat-pump version became available. And presumably now, is no longer available.
You are only talking about the US-spec Q4, where the heat-pump was always standard. This is not the case in other parts of the world, for example here in Europe/Norway, where the heat-pump always has been optional. My 2023 Q4 45 Quattro does not have a heat-pump and manages the winter totally fine.
does heat pump reverse for cooling the battery
Thanks for the info! The question now is why did the heatpump in VW's EVs underperform?
Yes, I was hoping for them to dig into that. Hopefully a follow up video.
Coz they're rubbish at it.
@@gregbailey45 They've been designing thermal system for cars for decades, including heatpumps, because that's how all aircon works. They should be able to deal with this - it's not rocket science.
Early reports say, those heat pumps were from TI Fluid Systems, UK.
@@fsbbs Maybe there was a conversion problem between imperial and metric measurements. 😂
Good insight!
Why did you skip the original audi etron 55
Question regarding the "Sexy Buttons" aren't you concerned about safety as it writes to the bus?
Usually the scan my Tesla ODB stuff is passive and just reading. But writing to it without the UI as kind of "safety layer" makes me think about it. What if this thing writes something critical to the bus? Like airbag deployment?
Actually even Scan My Tesla sends CAN messages. I don't trust any device on my CAN network that doesn't need to be there. Just because currently there isn't any exploit for this type of devices today, it doesn't mean there won't be one tomorrow. It already is a very hard challenge to secure CAN network of a car (like Range Rover tailgate fiasco) and I don't want to make it easier for thieves with installing Chinese made wireless connection CAN transmitter into my car.
Did you ever get to see the Honda E? That's a really neat little car. :)
It's a shame that no mirrors means no selling it in the US.
Pretty amazing one. I already have Tesla Model Y, but would love to have it as city trolley
Nissan Leaf was the pioneer, first EV with heat pump.
The Leaf was so much ahead of it’s time. 2011, before all the others.
Vorsprung durch Technik....
Thanks. I own a 2022 Q4 e-tron. Nice to know that I have an underperforming heat pump and was never offered $1000 from Audi. Darn.
Is a heat pump still neccecary it the entire power train is effecient enough to make lees heat than is needed to make the heat pump do it's work?
Or like the powertrain isn't temperature sensetive
Scott is absolutely right. There has been an independent test by a company named NextMove in Germany and they tested an ID-4 with and without a heatpump and it made literally no difference. VW group's heatpump is inefficient to make any difference. Tesla must have gone through R&D and came to the same conclusion that's why they ended up with Octovalve!
Do you guys know how much btu a cooling/heating system make in a typical car?
I wonder if the poor efficiency is due to too small of a condenser or the lack of airflow. House heatpumps needs a lot of air in cold days to produce heat because it can only catches a little. Also, everytime it needs to defrost, you're throwing energy outside so if the car's condenser is not protected from the snow/rain/slush, it must get iced up very quickly.
Car heating is typically 1-4kW depending how big it is and how cold it is outside. You'll have to ask the internet what that is in 'old money' :-) The heat source in a car is the motors/inverter/charger/battery. Maybe some models can use the radiator and fan to get heat from outside air when parked-up, but I suspect that option is often simply not implemented?
I paid $200 more for the heat pump on my Volvo X40. It works fine but better than resistive ? I would like to know.
As an HVAC service tech I have always defined a heat pump as a refrigeration machine that has a 'Reversing Valve" in the refrigerant piping system. Do automotive heat pumps use a 'Reversing Valve' or do they just redirect the thermal management fluid to the 'hot' or the 'cold' heat exchanger with the fluid control valves (Octo Valve)?
I think Munro mentions this in their video talking about the octovalve. My remembrance is that the valve reverses the flow of heat or cold depending on the control setting.
So with my limited understanding, I don’t think there is a separate heat pump reversing valve?
@@nickmcconnell1291 I would also think that there is no reverse valve but actually when I tried changing temperature from max heat to max cooling you can hear the refrigerant decompress in system to change direction. But that may be my overinterpetation of sounds. I think it would make sense to still reverse the flow in particular circumstances, especially that it doesn't increase the price of system that much, right?
@@darekmistrz4364 Well the octovalve is a rotating valve something like how a wankel rotary engine works. There is a central rotating shaft with protrusions that seal at certain points and send various fluids in different directions depending on whether it needs to heat or cool something.
If you are interested look up the TH-cam Channel for “Munro Live” searching for “octovalve”. In one of these vids they do a CT scan showing how the interior of the valve looks/works.
It is this valve that reverses the flow of the heat pump fluids I think, rather than a standard reversing valve which can wear out. You indeed are probably hearing the reversing of the fluids as this valve changes positions.
@@nickmcconnell1291 Fluids are not compressable and unless there is a lot of air in that system, I think reversing flow of coolant shouldn't make so much sounds.
I already saw that octovalve video.
I think heat pump is directly connected to evaporator and condenser in the cabin through the octovalve. You can see that in Munroe's "Model Y E17" at 5:55 and in "Model Y E23" same timestamp. If it would be liquid, it would be basically two tubes and one heat exchanger - you wouldn't need two sets of tubes and heat exchangers.
@@darekmistrz4364 You know more than I do about this obviously. Sorry I don’t know what you might be hearing. I am waiting on my Cybertruck. Maybe I’ll learn something then? 😜
The CO2-based ID.4 aircon (version with heatpump) is a nightmare to service, very few VW dealers have CO -HVAC service equipment.
Whats actually the difference between having a heatpump or not ?
I think, the compressor, the heat exchanger and so on must be there anyway because of the air condition.
So maybe just a few valves ?!?
one valve & defrost relay . . . no 'chips' involved.
Not necessarily. Integrated heat pump system manages where you get heat/cold from and where you want to put heat/cold to. With very connected system like Tesla has, you can move cold/heat in any one of these 4 components: ambient air, cabin, battery and motor+inverter. You can often times see limitations of poorly executed heat pump systems on fast charger in winter when system tries to warm up battery but cannot push warm air to cabin too like Hyudnai Ionic 5 and EV6 did before their update that basically changed to use small PTC when fast charging to heat cabin separately and heat pump focuses on battery. What VW is probably saving money on is battery heating and cooling by converting it to very primitve liquid cooling one, and putting motor and inverter heat also with liquid cooling to ambient through radiator.
Great Job, as usual! I offer an idea for a future segment. What are the differences between ICE, Plugin Hybrid, Hybrid, and EV? Mainly on your videos and our driving patterns, I would certainly consider an EV for one of our vehicles; I don't think a Hybrid would make sense, given the complexity.
Munro love you guys! But, Lucid, Lucid, Lucid, we need a Lucid tear down. Please.
There was no option for a heat pump in the id.4 in the US.
Maybe it's a good idea to also point out that this heat pump system runs on R744, or CO2. In theory these are the most efficient in cold conditions, but due to the operating pressures most expensive units. However, they struggled with meb software so much that they worked on basic functionality for years and didn't get around to optimizing efficiency yet. So it's an expensive unit running not optimized and is also relatively inefficient in hot conditions too. Which causes the cars to struggle in warmer markets (like California). I support your theory, even though I am saddened that vw didn't figure it out in time to deliver a product that could have been great but ultimately wasn't.
Unless it's a Peltier heat pump (which it isn't), chip shortage has nothing to do with this decision.
_Something_ decides which electrically-actuated valves to operate according to whether the cabin needs to be heated or cooled. Even if the 'something' is just a task running in a central computer system, chip(s) will still be needed to receive and respond to the commands issued by the climate control system.
@@levenkay4468 - a manual switch normally 'decides' between heat or cool for a heat pump.
When your heat pump comes with a Canada goose jacket you can have conversations about efficiency while your shivering... Nobody in a cold climate is using a heat pump because they suck.
Why do vehicle heat pumps add so much more complexity than residential heat pumps? In a residential unit, the difference between a heat pump and an air conditioner is a single reversing valve. Is it because you have to route heat/cold 4 ways between radiator, motor, battery and passenger compartment?
Surely there would be some incentive for a company like Bosch to come out with a compact system like Tesla has that all OEMs could use which is not much more expensive than a regular heat pump?
Jodie Robinson - My 2015 Nissan Leaf heat pump = single reversing valve. Added complexity = heated seats & steering wheel . . . . Ouch ! !
@@richardhobbs7107 That's a great compromise for air-cooled battery vehicles. I'm glad the later model Leafs have it as standard.
I would assume that a heat pump and its associated plumbing also adds additional WEIGHT compared to a simple resistive heater. So $1000 for additional service complexity, added weight, and maintenance. Using 5 lines to draw a triangle.
Still need AC so probably not a lot of weight reduction.
It seems like they were talking about battery temperature management, not cabin conditioning, otherwise they couldn’t replace the heat pump with a resistance heater.
Adding a heat pump does not magically increase efficiency, it is a part and parcel of EV powertrain heating and cooling. Below ten degrees a heatpump becomes useless quite quickly. As such, all EV's using it also have resistive heaters. As MB has proven, a well designed ICE inspired heating and cooling system that includes not only cabin but also powertrain systems combined can make the addition of a heat pump with its added cost and complexity unnecessary.
But is the heatpump really useless or VW's implentation just bad?
The latter.
heatpumps (in cars) are not intrinsically useless - they are vital in fact for making efficient vehicles. Plenty of manufacturers have done this well (Kia/Hyundai, Nissan for a start, Tesla were late to this but I presume their's works well too). I'm not sure what VW have done exactly, but it's clearly not very good.
VW said it was due to the Chip shortage. I call ir BS.
What extra chips you need if the car already has an Air conditioner In place? The compressor and inverter/control board are already there. All you need for it to have a heat pump is adding a reversing valve.
Without a heatpump, what do they do for air-conditioning?
It's a one way system, puts only cold air in the cabin like a normal A/C.
Maybe there would be an advantage in having a relatively small range extender ICE engine in an EV to provide both heat and top up charging. Wouldn't need to be more than about 500cc and doesn't need to drive the vehicle itself but would be useful in cold climates to keep the battery and cabin warm and to provide enough current for constant speed highway cruising at up to 60mph through 1 electric motor. Perhaps a turbo or supercharger could be used to reduce the size of the engine.
Oh yeah, I need that additional complexity, additional weight, additional maintenance, additional fire risk, additional price increase and risk of carbon monoxide poisoning when heating up a car in garage. Thanks but no thanks
Just bought a 2023 q4 50
And it has a heat pump as an option
Being unable to make an efficient heat pump is another example of how far behind Tesla the legacy OEMs are.
Recent testing of a Tesla showed 20% less energy consumption with a heat pump at a mere 30 degrees… very worth it for winter
I just wish they kept the heat strips as "emergency heat" for backup during extreme cold, just like a home hvac systems does.
@@aussie2uGA My Model Y LR heats fine even well below 0 degrees F in Minnesota winters (better than my Subaru Forester). It always helps to precondition and turn on climate control before leaving. The the car then gets better efficiency and max regen.
@@aussie2uGA They have heated seats. That begs the question, which is more efficient for the same body warming: heat pump only vs seat heaters only?
@@csf1757 - My 2015 Nissan Leaf has heated seats & steering wheel as well as the heat pump. The heat pump seldom gets used as the first two are more than adequate for 'comfy' !
I suspect it’s cost reducing as you say and not component shortages, why do VW group have an issue with honesty?
Model S won winter range test. 16,4% under WLTP in -5 to -10° Celsius.
So the heat pump was not delivering the range benefit that was claimed and which justified the 1k component of the vehicle price. Is this indicative of the situation for all BEVs or did Audi just design a poor heat pump ?