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@@natehirt4297 Throwing a trillion dollars at the starving people and it wouldnt change shit, solving hunger is not a question about money, believe it or not
I am a retired consulting mechanical and electrical engineer. During my 52 years of consulting I designed innumerable heat pump systems. I was very active in the early years of geothermal systems in South Dakota, working with utility companies and also architects. I gave up geothermal systems for commercial buildings due to the potential for inaccurate diagnosis of ground thermal properties ( which led to one of my fellow consulting firms design a high school that would not stay warm ). So, geothermal is good, so long as it is successful (duh ). Here in western South Dakota we can sometimes experience sub-zero temperatures, down to minus 20 deg. F. Depending on the quality and design of the heat pump system, you could see the unit running at a thermal efficiency of 1 to 1. This is far from the efficiencies of 4 to 1 at 40 to 50 degrees outside. Also, the total run-time hours in very cold climates is greater, leading to a shorter overall lifespan. My wife and I have four Daikin high-efficiency heat pump systems and one York nominal efficiency system. We also have one "pump and dump" geothermal system that is a water to water system, utilizing a water well for supply and the nearby river for discharge. This system produces approximately 115 degree heating water that supplies baseboard finned heating units and in-floor heat for our sun room. All of these systems are more expensive than typical gas heating systems, but are environmentally friendly. They also add compliment our solar panels and our Tesla Model 3. As usual, you did a great job of explaining how you can get heat from the outside air. My warning to people is to be careful who installs and sizes the system, an good they are. PN
hey, I am pretty lame at all things electrical and house related. But I do need a heat pump. Can you point me in any direction, or tell me any brands to key in on? Thanks for the advice on choosing your designer and installer.
Bjorn Nyland from Norway just made a video expalining what system he got for a new house. Air-to-water heat pump, so he'll heat the house with circulating hot water and the same heat pump makes hot water for bathroom/kitchen.
The problem is when you live in a climate that actually gets down to temperatures around -34C, -30F. When a heat pump fails to heat your home because you arctic air decides to pay you a visit, why should some blowhard in New York that gets his avocado spread imported from California via airplane or train tell me I can't use natural gas to heat my home? I think this would has enough room for some fossils fuels, since most climate models fail to accurately accommodate for forest fires and volcanic eruptions, which spew gargantuan amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. And they have been for millions of years. Technology is great and is a boon to our quality of life as well as our livelihoods, but sometimes they aren't and a 1 size fits all method is not what this world needs. People know electric cars work in cold climates they just don't work that well. You get half the milage, and in a state where there may be over 300KM, 187 miles between cities, it might just mean your death if your car doesn't make it. Improve the technology and people will buy it, and for God's sake use the benefits of stuff that actually.matter to people like quality of life and cost savings to convince them.
The heat pump in Teslas performs a number of temperature regulating tasks. It would be interesting if a device designed for the home could combine the functions of a water heater, refrigerator and air conditioner/heater. If you think about it, it's kind of nuts that we have one box that we use to pump heat from inside the house outside and another that we use to pump heat from a box containing food and pump it into the house.
That would be awesome for tiny homes, vans and boats where you get refrigeration and hot water from one appliance. An all in one freezer/refrigerator/water heater would be awesome. Also make the freezer at least as big as the refrigerator section because those applications frequently involve storing a lot of frozen food.
Yes, I think this will be what the Tesla product will do. An octovalve for your home. I think it might also include solar panel cooling as a heat source. It would also be interesting if they could develop a heat pump based cooking appliance…
The octovalve is good. It’s not just that Elon is brilliant, but he seems to smell talent and isn’t afraid to do stupid things. Tesla is a new American car company. I root for Ford and Chevy, used to like Chrysler but they are now to Dodgy 🤦🏻♀️ If one of my Toyota/Lexus reaches end of life, I might go EV. I’m ditching my spare BMW since my rarely-used turn signal stopped working. Not to get political, but the I’m glad that the Inflation reduction act was Signed into law so that it wasn’t a sad bill on Capitol Hill. There’s an accessible amount of deductions for the middle-class. Much better than the capital gains tax reduction under Trump.
I've thought about it a decade ago, refrigerators should come with a vale system that comes with external home hookup (a mini evaporator, possibly passive) while also being able to hook into the homes HVAC electrical just to know if you are set to heating or cooling. Simply when the heat is on it operates as normal refrigerators do and when cooling is on the vales would then pump heat out side of the house. Then of course it could also run on a mini-split system as talked about in this video.
The beauty about Elon's strategy is, for every problem find a simple solution that can be mass produced! His vision is always so gigantic that it is awesome!
Modern refrigerants have solved the ozone depletion problem. However, current generation refrigerants used in heat pumps (R-410a, R-32, etc) still have a Global Warming Potential (GWP) that are hundreds of times greater than CO2. If your HVAC system catastrophically leaks out, you've more or less blown your entire carbon budget for the year. Therefore, high quality workmanship when installing a minisplit heat pump is critical. Upcoming generations of refrigerants will solve this problem, but they aren't at commercial scale yet.
However, most people have an AC unit which contains the same harmful chemicals, so the energy and carbon saved by eliminating the furnace is still valid.
R-600 is cheap and efficient with near zero GWP or ozone depletion but DuPont doesn’t make enough off of it so it’s relegated to sealed small fridge and freezer units.
In New Zealand, about 40% of homes use a heat pump. All new homes have them. Still some way to go though! Off course all heat pumps do both heating and cooling. We use them in our Ski Lodge with outside temps down to about -12 deg C, and they still work fine.
Great video, thanks for explaining things as you always do. I believe there's an error at @2:50, 0.3 Trillion should be 300 billion rather than 30 billion.
A couple other mistakes that stood out to me. The refrigerant, r134a isn't harmless. It is better than r12 for the ozone, but is still a green house gas and has other issues. It is already banned in some places. The replacements are again a little better, but still have problems. Resistive heating isn't the only reason EVs aren't good in the cold. Colder temps also slow down all chemical reactions and the batteries used are chemical batteries. Hence lower output performance and slower charging to boot. Also, very low temps degrade and shorten the lifespan many types of rechargeable batteries, lithium chemistries are included.
Also, Tesla did not lay out a plan to eliminate 100% of fossil fuel dependency. For example, material production is a huge industry; plastics, ammonia, cement and asphaly all require fossil fuels.
Ac technician here… heat pump tend to freeze up at the condensing coils in outdoor temps below 32 degrees. So outdoor unit must defrost every 30/60/90 minutes if the outdoor coil sensor is triggered (depending on board program). Defrost operation means the hot refrigerant goes to the outdoor coil to thaw the ice but the cold refrigerant goes inside. This means the cold air will blow out of your vents in heat mode. To compensate the cold air. Most heat pumps engage auxiliary electric heater elements to provide heat at that point. Heater elements draw a ridiculous amount of electricity compared to a heat pump. So my point is if we are still burning fossil fuels for our general power grid then the emissions are not going away they are being transferred to the initial power station that is having to create more energy to run the electric heaters. Most gas furnaces are 120v and hardly pull any electricity
I have solar and batteries at home. Getting more solar to go to a heat pump to replace natural gas furnances right now. With that said, you provide good information. Your "get over it" comment about natural gas stoves is out of line. I prefer natural gas for cooking. When someone tells me that I "need to get over it" makes me (and a lot of people) want to keep whatever that is even more. If you want to get people to change their behavior, present the facts and let them make a decision like an adult. Spare me the "save the earth" comments. With all the investments that I have made in solar, batteries and a model Y is significant and my personal choice. I didn't do it to save the earth, I did it because for me, I would rather give my money to companies that reduce our reliance on monopolies (the untily companies) to someone else.
Heat pump heating/cooling systems have been taking over the HVAC market on new construction for years now- even before Tesla started talking about them.
Heat pump engineer here! Heatpumps do create heat, they don't just move heat from one place to another. When the refrigerant is compressed by the compressor motor it turns some of the energy (electricity) into heat. That heat energy then moves with the other heat, that was captured at the evaporator end, to the condenser side where it is transferred into the space/medium that you want to heat. It all depends on the efficiency of the system. A good air to air system gets to a COP of around 4, meaning it produces 4 times more heat energy than it needs electric energy.
R134a is NOT harmless! Its actually pretty bad for the environment! It's got a very high global warming potential. Also, it's not very useful for heatpumps! OMG, dude can you call me up before you make your next heatpump related video?
I am a retired HVAC engineer in Portugal and I believe we can always increase efficiency sometimes by adding small changes and approaches. Let's keep our minds open and never be comfortably resigned that we achieved the peak of perfection.
Heat pumps have been around for decades. They've been getting better over the years as well. Present day heat pumps can achieve a coefficient of performance (COP) of 5. This translates to 500% efficiency. Very impressive, but heat pump COP drops as the temperature difference (inside air temp - outside air temp) increases. So... when it is relatively warm outside (say 55 deg F) the heat pump can put lots of power (in the form of heat energy) in your house efficiently (even though you don't need all that much power on a 55 deg F day). However, at 10 deg F day, the heat pump's COP is significantly lower... maybe 3? (not sure on the exact numbers here). This is fundamental to the way heat pumps operate. So, when you really need lots of power (in the form of heat) coming into your house, the heat pump delivers less power. At some point, the power needed is below what the heat pump can provide. this is where resistive heating comes in. Resistive heating is effectively a COP of 1. In this case the electricity requirement increase significantly. Designing a heat pump system for a house is an exercise in finding a right size solution. Interestingly, when a cold spell hits, your electricity demand can really jumps. So the grid needs to handle the worst case heating requirement. This will generally occur at night, which is also the time most folks will be charging their cars. So... as we increase to 50% or more EV adoption, we will want to charge our EVs at night, but if the weather forecast is for really cold temperatures, we may want to postpone EV charging until the next day. Funny how these things work out! Can Tesla produce a heat pump product for home heating that is more efficient and lower cost than the like of Carrier or Train or Amana etc... ??? Probably, but I suspect it will take a little time to achieve this and produce it at scale.
Well its all about getting the energy grid smart and have flexible prices. In germany i have a contract with the energy company and pay the same price for it over the whole year. doesnt matter it its day or night which doesnt make any sense, since during the day there is a lot of solar or wind power and the prices for energy can even get negative due to the high supply. If we have a lot ov EVs or Powerwalls we just need to make it attractive to people to use the energy during the day(low price) by providing enough charging stations, change habits to use the washing mashine/dishwasher, charge up your power wall and when its evening(higher prices) you should benefit from giving some of your energy back to the grid for a bit of profit. Of course this has to be high enough that it compensates for your battery usage/degredation. Like 95% of people do not need there car at 100% to get to work the next day. Imagine you could opt in for helping the grid and define a percentage of your battery if its above a certain lvl. if you tell your car you need to go on the road at midnight and need 100% then it will charge. if you do nothing and have it set to give the grid 10% battery if its at least 60% charged it will put these 10% into the grid for 2x, 3x the energy costs and when the demand for ernergy falls down at night it will charge. you wont feel that 10% and your car will still have 100% if you get up in the morning. It would be really interesting to get the numbers on this. Like what are 10% of all evs battery storage in kwh if we have 50% ev adoption? The EVs providing energy would even prevent more blackouts since at this point there a like millions ov little "power plants" providing the energy and the energy only takes the shortest/easiest route to the place where it is needed and doesnt need to be transported thousands of miles from the power plant to the homes. Some villain earthquake/tornado/putin riding on a bear destroyed some cables? Guess what? You wouldnt know it because your ps5 shuts off but the news telling you that there is some emergency and they are working to fix it. The only inconvinience for you is do decide if you want to keep your energy to yourself, or give some more % to the grid until the problem is fixed.
Tesla is in no position to compete with existing HVAC manufacturers for non-automotive applications without a massive funding commitment. Given the poor economic climate and Musk's foolish foray into Twitter, there is no funding available. Easy money days are over. Tesla's engineers are to be commended for adapting existing technology to provide automotive heating /cooling with modern digital controls.
I think that the best way to explain a heat pump is to think of how your freezer gets warm at the back when it is running, and just imagine that by running a heat pump you are reversing that, and essentially making the outside air even more freezing cold than it already is, while making the inside of your house warm. You are turning the outside of your house into a deep freezer compartment. Because the amount of relatively warm air out there (compared to a deep freezer) is practically infinite, you are never going to run out of heat to warm your house.
134a is defently not harmless. Its global warming potential is still 1000 to 3000 times higher, compared to CO2. A lot of inovation has to go into refridgerents to develop climate friendly, safe and efficient heat pumps.
We installed two outside Reverse-Cycle heat pumps (with 8 indoor fan units) when we built 12 years ago. We are very happy the setup and would do it again. The cost of heating is roughly the same as buying split wood for a slow combustion heater. (AU$270 per 1000 Kg of wood) Something to consider is the amount of electricity used by the system when in stand-by mode. It seems to use about 2.5KWh per day just to run the electronics (Heating and cooling NOT used). Where we live in Australia that adds up to: 2.5KWh * 365 days * $0.40 = AU$365 per year (US$255 per year). Thats over $4000 in 12 years.
I have installed a number of mini-split heat pumps and I am impressed with their efficiency. I was surprised to see how the rest of the world has been so far ahead of North America in adopting this technology. My current favourite is the Fujitsu LZBS line. I expect Tesla's engineering can improve on an already-great product. Yes, community-wide where I live a concerted heat pump installation program has made a significant difference in home heating energy here on the Gulf Islands on the West Coast of Canada.
Why Tesla has unlimited growth potential. Car batteries leads to utility scale battery storage, FSD gives us Optimus robot, Octavalve gives us home HVAC. With no end in sight, it’s wise to hold onto your shares.
Our house is heated by the heat pump and works just fine, but only till -12°C outside (and in Montreal it reaches sometimes till -30 and even lower during winter); then switch to an electrical furnace. The only heat pump that could function below -12 is Mitsibishi (as I know) and the cost is much higher.
Modern refrigerants are by no means harmless. Refrigerants have a Global Warming Potential (GWP). CO2's GWP is 1. R134A's GWP is 1,430. A common refrigerant for home systems is R410A which has a GWP of 2,088. There are newer refrigerants with lower GWP, such as R454B with a GWP of 466, but they aren't easily available yet. There is at least one company, Eco2Systems, building hot water systems that use CO2 as a refrigerant (GWP 1). States are starting write GWP limits into law. So, expect some changes to refrigerants in the coming years. And, whatever you do, DO NOT VENT refrigerants to the atmosphere!
I do not remember ever in my entire life long experience of dependence on a combustible gas being told it is unexpectedly unavailable. Electricity on the other hand has become unexpectedly unavailable hundreds if thousands of times.
It can happen, but it's rare. I had my gas shut off because of a leak in a supply line outside my house, it took a few days to be fixed. Electricity of course goes out many more times. That being said, if you have rooftop solar and a battery maybe it's comparable?
I've been doing refrigeration work since 1971. Have geothermal pumps in 6 locations starting in 1987. Existing HVAC contractors have been very resistant to geothermal and laws don't give any push to geothermal. Refrigerants: Propane is one of the most efficient materials. No magic there, it just works. TESLA can certainly have more effect on total energy consumption with heat pumps than with cars. The sooner the better.
When you think that there's not much heat at say zero degrees F, and therefore not much heat energy available to add to your 65 degree house to heat it, you may be forgetting that any temperature above -460 F has available heat. And that zero degrees outside has a huge amount of heat compared to -460F and with the proper machinery, all of that heat is available to move inside. A similar argument works in the other direction to cool your house, though with different numbers.
@@muskepticsometimes9133 True, the energy required for the heat pump goes up with lower outside temperatures and so does the cost to operate, but that doesn't eliminate its value.
@@garethrobinson2275 electricity costs more per Joule than gas. Heat pump advantage is efficiency which declines w temperature. You can't simply proclaim cold weather an edge case
This video is well done, it does not talk about the simple reversing valve required to cool the interior instead of only heating, this is the wonder of the heatpump.
Three problems with heat pumps for space heating. First, vent exit air temperature of traditional heat pumps is lower than NG furnace. The air "feels" cold. Second, heat pump efficiency falls at lower outside temperatures. Current heat pumps switch to resistance heating when outside air temperature falls below about 10° F (system dependant) Third, grid capacity must be increased to meet electricity demand as furnaces are replaced by HPs. All are solvable, but there's a LOT of work to do here.
I was able to run my own little experiment, I have a whole home heat pump system HVAC unit but our unit has an auxiliary resistance heater integrated into it. Sometimes I worry in it's age our HVAC system has become inefficient, it seems to run for longer than it used to. So I decided to run an experiment. I would disable the HVAC and run aux heating for a month and see how it influenced my energy bill. My energy is 10-11 cents per KWH. I ran this test during spring when outside temp was on the rise but average was about 50F. Our monthly electricity bill increased from around 90$ per month to 140$ for the month with the resistance heater. I eliminated all other variables. I then returned to the HVAC and it came back down to 92$ the following month. All other energy use was within monthly norms. This clinched it for me, HVAC systems (heat pumps) are FAR more efficient when it comes to heating a home.
We have been using heat pumps here 🇦🇺for a very long time. We don’t go below freezing yet have found the lose efficiency at low temperature. The newer ones must be getting better.
My top of the line Lennox Heat Pump doesn’t even come close to the efficiency of natural gas, when temperatures are below 20°F. It gets even harder to pull heat out of the air the colder you get. -60°F in Alaska, good luck.
R-134a is a potent greenhouse gas with a GWP (global warming potential) value of 1,430. In other words, the greenhouse effect of the R-134a refrigerant is 1,430 times the 100-year warming potential of the same volume of carbon dioxide. Not harmless.
My brother owns a geothermal heat pump. The earth is always 50 degrees several feet below the ground winter or summer. Less energy differences to fight against air vs ground. Smaller unit needed vs a traditional separate furnace and air conditioner. There are additional Optional inexpensive metallic strips than can be added in the blower vs a separate expensive reserve resistance or gas furnace. It does not take that much more additional heat added to blower to really make things warm. My heat pump puts out 110 degree air
Another critique, the Mach E does not have a heat pump. The coolant system between the model Y and Mach E is what Sandy Munroes team were commenting on. Teslas heat pump is great but that later half isn’t relavent to the heat pump, just the coolant system.
@@stevekundzala676 false. Down to -13 they can provide 80% of rates BTU capacity in certain mini splits. A standard heat pump unit that most houses use, and mini splits are vastly different.
@@stevekundzala676 look at Mitsubishi mini split units with Hyper Heat. They also have a base pan heater in the outside unit. Mitsubishi has standard mini splits that heat and cool and higher tier that do the same but have different heating ratings for different outside temps. The seer ratings are different. They have units that from 6-12k btu that have seer ratings if 26-33 seer. You’re welcome. Remember, a heat pump in a Tesla provides heat regardless of the temperature outside, to my knowledge. Think about that.
Heat pumps were notorious for working well in moderate temperatures in the sothern half of the United States but terribly in cold temperatures in the northern half. Electrical resistance heating elements were required for units in cold temperatures. Supposedly modern heat pumps have solved this problem. I wish your video would have explained how this was accomplished.
It's so weird to keep hearing about heat pumps as if it's something new... While they've been in use for >40 years in many other countries... It's called a reverse cycle air conditioner.
My understanding of heat pumps is the closer to 32 degrees Fahrenheit, the less effective the heat pump is because there is almost no ambient heat outside. That is why when it's really cold outside, the pump runs all the time struggling to keep a comfortable inside temperature of say, 72 degrees. My experience is that in such cases, the system always goes to its 'auxiliary' setting that is basically using electric coils to raise the heat. In this way, the heat pump is least efficient when you need it most. Is this correct?
I wasn't exactly impressed with the heat pump idea in Northern climates until I saw numerous applications in Japan. I would be interested in learning how I could possibly incorporate the cooling component with a Warmboard radiant floor heating system. Can I cool the floor and coverings to cool a home? Maybe even use the water heater to augment the heat pump in the winter in a Northern climate?
Warmboard is prohibitively expensive. If you’re rich and bored, go for it. If you’re on any kind of a budget, don’t waste your time even looking at that product.
I understand that in cold weather heat can be scanvanged from electrical components and made into cabin heat but what about in hot environmnets when you want to cool the cabin and drivetrain components, where does the excess heat go?
The heat pump works like oil on a machine to withstand heat and cold and work better. Also more modern and efficient using its environment of energy and temperture to work better. Like being at equilibrium with the climate.
It’s nice that you can explain a refrigeration cycle but the colder it gets outside, the less efficient a heat pump is. In the Midwest, using an electric heat pump will result in a cold home and triple the heating costs. Natural gas is abundant, cheap and efficient.
Insulation is the answer ... then the reduced heat output is more than enough. That's much better than using fossil fuels to get the higher heat you presently need because of poor insulation ... then letting much of the heat escape from your house. No matter how wonderful natural gas may be at producing heat we have to move away from high carbon fossil sources.
Help if the source of the heat was factored into the heat pump. Draw heat from a glass enclosed conservatory on the sunny side of a building in winter. Dump heat into a shaded space on the cold side of a house with directed air circulation in summer. Draw off any heat from where it is not wanted to where it is wanted ie Hot Water system and cooking. Pay attention to where you want the heat and you should cut out a lot of system fighting system. Also design systems to draw heat from solar panels to cool them so they are more efficient and last longer. Add heat storage into systems because it is cheaper/simpler to store energy as heat than electricity. This includes designing buildings to NOT waste energy and be passively comfortable.
Its soo funny in a way that Ford and GM as well others auto companies need to learn from Tesler how ahead he come that no other person can't out match him! Love his ideas while other auto makers is failing badly.
That was one of the best explanations of how a heat pump works that I have come across. I'm going to share this with a few people to see if it shifts their confused view of heat pumps. I find that so many people still don't get that heat pumps are not about extracting hot temperatures from outside to inside. I get the answer so many times - "they only work properly when you don't need the heat". WRONG. 😀
Maybe take another look at your system my friend. In heat mode the condenser is on the inside and evaporator on the outside. Beside that, liquid refrigerant boils from a high pressure/outside ambient air temperature liquid, into a low pressure/very low temperature gas along the coils of the evaporator (absorbing heat from outside for the boil) it then is piped to the compressor that converts it to a high pressure/high temperature gas. The condenser receives the high pressure/high temperature gas from the compressor and transfers heat from the gas into the surrounding (inside) air as it converts into the high pressure/inside ambient air temperature liquid along its coils that is piped to the evaporator outside.
At -45°C a temperature frequently seen in several populated parts of the world; The outside air is still colder than the R134a, this is a hurdle for that refriferant.
I agree, live high in Colorado mountains (9500+' / ~3000 m). Answer is using water to water heat pump. I have a self-designed and installed hydronic floor heating system that at the moment uses propane (couldn't find the right size water to water heat pump to fit the space 5 years ago). I have 4 solar hot water panels that still get the heating water >150F on the coldest days mid-winter (we have lots of sun). This goes to a HW storage tank, then to the propane boiler to hydronic system and hot water for house. I want to replace the propane with a water to water heat pump that only needs about 75-80F water from the storage tank via a heat exchanger to create the 140F for the home heating. I don't know why these just aren't made for residential use. Lots of large commercial buildings I've worked on use this type of heat pump system to heat and cool the building (usually low temp gas boilers for heat) and cooling towers (evap coolers) for cooling. I've also got 6kW solar PV and battery so think this should be able to hold the house through the 5-day storms we sometimes get. If someone (Canada?) would make these they would be far cheaper and simpler than geoexchange with plenty of heating capability. We don't need cooling but it could also work that way if needed. It would be nice if we could find out just how efficient the Tesla heat pumps are in EER (standard rating for heat pumps).
Heat pump, geothermal and solar heat has a huge potential. Here in Canada we can get 4X with a geothermal heat pump. Still the old houses have almost no insulation, thus at some point it would be better to rebuild them.
Perfect as usual. Just not sure how many people with keen interest in Tesla wouldn't understand the principle of a heat pump. Funny enough, I read about the principle of heat pump sometimes back in 1985. But for various reasons I was unable to install one until some seven years ago. Yet last year, when the Ukraine-Russia war started and energy costs went suddenly up, some people said I was a visionary. 🤣
This fits right in with their residential solar and optional battery backup systems. Would be nice to have the option of outside air heat exchanger or the more efficient geothermal heat exchanger (at higher installation cost).
The world is definitely ready to switch to heat pumps. They are already in wide use in many countries, especially those without gas lines running all over the place. Heat pumps reduce the cost of heating a home if you have electric heat, by 66 percent, and 33 percent if you have oil or gas. With Tesla's heat pump, which will no doubt be more efficient, the savings will be greater.
@@barongerhardt As volumes increase, heat pumps will get cheaper, but here in the UK the aim is to reach a point where heat pumps are on a par with gas heating, so that as people age out their gas systems they will use heat pumps (where appropriate) to replace them. Poorly insulated homes tend not to do so well with heat pumps, but at the moment there is a lot of low hanging fruit. Also Tesla have done a great jobs of simplifying and streamlining the production of heat pumps for cars, and maybe they'll move into the home/office heat pump arena too.
@@simhedgesrex7097 I think for EVs, sure. ICE autos already have a free heat source. In the home, heat pumps are already a fairly common option and have reached near price parity with AC units. They will never get as cheap to produce, nor be as reliable, as the much simpler techs of resistive heating or combustion. The operations costs are where they get competitive, but we should also look at maintenance and get to a total life cycle cost. Your insulation comment is interesting. I would assume it is some combination of under sizing of the heat pump and the larger temperature delta for heating vs cooling?
Hmm.. how about in areas where it gets really cold or really hot? Think they will design an affordable 2 stage heat pump? For example: IF decompressing the refrigerant brings it down to -30°C and it is -30°C or less outside THEN heat transfer stops and the whole system stops working. On the coldest days people will have no heat at all. Hopefully they have backup: natural gas(cheap) or electric (expensive). They would have a heat pump they paid for and can't use year round. Same goes for summer: IF compressing the refrigerant brings it up to 30°C and it is 30°C or more outside THEN the cooling system completely stops. Right now, in Canada, we use heat pumps in larger commercial buildings but they also have other forms of heat. In 2 buildings I've worked in, we have to heat the heat pumps with gas heaters throughout winter so they don't get too cold.
@James Karrie source please. I searched for the term "variable inverter heat pump" but could not find exactly that. I found some Mitsubishi "inverter heat pump" technology but that was only good down to -25°C. Did you perhaps mean "inverter-driven variable speed compressor" or "variable refrigerant flow (VRF)"? Even these systems don't claim to work in very cold temperatures. Only that they can maintain more consistent room temperatures. I would love to read up on a system that can operate from -40°C to 40°C with a single compressor. And if these do exist then why don't we install them. 🤔
How many days in the year you get -30c? So if you have to use a little bit of hydro or gas, it's not the end of the world & you still benefit widely from the Heat pump!
@Rozonoe Mi have you ever tried to sell a home owner two separate systems to heat their house? Homebuilders don't care about efficiency, they only care about upfront cost and what is required by building code. If you want to make a difference, try and sell your idea to them. Also, it was interesting to read that a gas furnace is more efficient than a heat pump below freezing. That would explain why my company keeps them around 5°C with gas heaters. 6 month/year is below freezing. 3 of those months regularly go below -30°C So, no, I'm not seeing this "wide benefit". Gas is cheap.
I think you could have improved your heat pump explanation by just explaining that heat is a thing and cold is just the absence of heat. Above absolute zero the air always contains heat. Heat pumps extract the outside heat and moves it to the cold place using the refrigerant that mechanism that you explain. Just like your refrigerator. it uses the same process in reverse to cool your house. Heat from the house is moved to the hotter outside making the outside still hotter (at least locally) and you house cooler.(relatively).
Heat pumps for homes aren't new. My current A/C for my house is an air to air heat pump, but the efficiency of the unit when the ambient temps are at 20 degrees Fahrenheit or colder becomes increasingly bad, and usually some type of secondary heat source (propane, in my case) is required. I looked into installing an underground water based (ok, glycol based) heat pump, instead of air to air it uses a closed loop glycol water system buried about 10 foot underground but it was expensive and after fighting with local bureaucrats trying to get an underground water loop unit installed in my house in 2015 I eventually gave up. I now own a Tesla, and the cabin heating/cooling system of that vehicle is a heat pump. I was (repeatedly) warned by people that the car would be cold or overly hot or it would completely kill the range to rely solely on a heat pump for cooling/heating the car but so far, even down to minus 10 degrees Fahrenheit or above 100 degrees the system works well. It does cost me some range but honestly its not uncommon for people to start their gas or diesel cars and let them just run for 10-15 minutes to get the interior of the car heated or cooled, depending on the season and doing that costs range for an ICE vehicle.
Heat pumps are awesome, I installed Mr Cool in my entire house 2 years ago, night and day comfort, massively less expensive to operate. Opposed to forced air, and 2 roof top master cool evaporative coolers. Heat pumps are definitely the way to go. -JM
Where do you live, actually heat pumps freeze below 15C therefore in many cases are false economy, most manufacturers hide the fact by adding reverse flow of gas to thaw outdoor evaporation coil or many do even worse, add an electrical resistance heater, that is pure dumb but the average user dose not know that so these companies are scammers positec a product that is not fit for purpose. A lot of people are paid to give fake reviews etc, however the fact remains these things dibble work in cold weather when you actually need it to. Sorry to rain on the heat pump industry parade, I speak the truth so I will be silenced by big corps. I have done my own research but testing units. I can back it up. Fake technology except above 15 deg Celsius whatever that is in Fahrenheit, humidity also will have a varying effect on freezing. One lie used by these heat pump pushing sales people is: on cooler weather humidity is always lower and while that is partly true efficiency goes down quite a lot as well as humidity holds a lot of heat energy.
In 1992, my new stick built Glendale, Arizona 3 bedroom, 3 bath house was all electric including a central Heat Pump air HVAC rooftop unit. My bill never got over $61 dollars a month summer and winter...
A refrigerator is a heat pump, it just can''t ge reversed like an HVAC can. So always get cold inside and if you check the coils behind the fridge, they're very warm
Your explanation for how a heat pump works is actually dead wrong in a couple of spots: 1. As commented on elsewhere, the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of the most commonly used refrigerants is huge. It is vitally important that these systems are designed to not leak and a fair amount goes into this. In some states at least, such as California, it is illegal to recharge an air conditioner until the leaks are fixed. You should never "run out of coolant" as I hear people talk about recharging their leaky old air conditioners over and over again, especially for say older cars as they have this ill conceived misconception that refrigerant is 'consumed' over time when in reality it only goes away due to leaks.. The fix for the GWP problem has actually been around since the dawn of air conditioning: propane. Yes, propane is a natural refrigerant and its GWP is orders of magnitude less than non-flammable refrigerants. However, regulators are afraid of it leading to fires, so it is not commonly used, especially not for large scale AC units / heat pumps. Personally, I think we have things figured out well enough to where we are just killing the environment for no reason by avoiding propane. 2. You are dead wrong about the explanation of fluid and gas in an air conditioner. Something to consider to get this story right is you see part of the refrigeration cycle all the time when you say boil water on the stove. You are constantly applying heat to boil water, but yet no matter high high you turn up the burner, the water sits at the exact same temperature. The reason for this is the phase change from a dense liquid to diffuse gas as in steam causes the working fluid, water in this case, to expand and cool. As the water expands and cools into steam, it takes out a great deal of heat from that pot of boiling water and thus cools it down to remain at the boiling point. The other part of the air conditioning cycle you also see all the time while cooking is pressure. For one, go up to a high altitude and cook, say go on a backpacking trip to the High Sierras or Rocky Mountains or at least go to a high altitude mountain town. You have to cook for longer while cooking with boiling water because the water boils at a lower temperature. The reason water boils at a lower temperature is there is less pressure on the water. If you go into the vacuum of space, water will just boil until it freezes over. Actually, nothing can be a liquid in the vacuum of space. It is either a solid or a gas. The other thing you will see while cooking going in the other direction is cooking with a pressure cooker. Increase the pressure and you can increase the temperature that water stays a liquid. So then the water gets hotter before boiling and your food cooks faster with the higher temperature water. So now go back to the propane example as propane is a natural refrigerant that is actually used in some air conditioners and apply the above. Propane when released from the bottle say into the room is a gas. However, while in the bottle it is primarily a liquid. The reason it is a liquid in the bottle is pressure raises its boiling point to cause it to become a liquid at room temperature. Now say attach a smallish bottle of propane to a large propane grill, especially on a cold winter day, and turn up the flames. That bottle will get cold, very cold even, and as the bottle gets colder, the flames will go down. The reason for this is the rapid release of propane gas from the bottle lowers the pressure and causes more propane to boil. Remember when water boils and turns to steam, it cools. In this case with propane, you are lowering the pressure to get the same boiling effect. But then as the propane cools, it boils at a lower pressure. Conversely, and I mention this because it is important for air conditioning, as the pressure increases, it boils at a higher temperature, or I should say it condenses back into a liquid at a higher temperature. So going back to the grill example, the bottle will get very cold, get condensate on it, and even start frosting up. As it does this, the pressure goes down and thus the flame goes down. I mention this because this is something you can actually do and see the refrigeration cycle in action and see I am not making this up. So now getting back to why you are wrong with how a heat pump works. The compressor takes a cold, lower pressure gas and forces it into a hot, high pressure gas / liquid. This high pressure gas / liquid is relatively hot because it is suddenly more dense. As it goes through a radiator, it cools and becomes completely a liquid. So the liquid is only really on the hot side of the heat pump, which is what you were dead wrong about. The expansion valve allows the pressure to be lowered and so the liquid expands into a gas and cools and this is how you get the cold side. The cold side is always a gas because a gas is less dense than a liquid and this is achieved by lowering the pressure. At the low pressure it will remain a diffuse gas at a low temperature. This is the other part you were dead wrong about. 3. You put this all together into a how air conditioners / heat pumps really work, and it quickly becomes clear why efficiency goes down with large temperature differentials. As the temperature differential becomes bigger, you have to make the hot side a certain pressure to force the refrigerant into a liquid that matches the heat you are trying to expel from the hot side radiator. Then you have to lower the pressure to do the same on the cold side, except the refrigerant needs to be a low enough pressure to stay a gas. This phase change is used to make the air conditioner / heat pump efficient and the pressure differentials need to be great enough to completely change phases between a gas and a liquid. So the larger the temperature differential, the larger the pressure differential that the compressor needs to work with. This differential is not linear either. So for example on a hot day, that extra 5 degrees can make the AC consume wildly more power. Each different refrigerant has a different boiling point. This effects its efficiency along with some other factors and effects the temperature range that it is useful for. When you hear about people setting up their heat pumps to do a ground exchange or an exchange with a body of water instead of an open air exchange for heating and cooling, it should quickly become apparent now why this is advantageous. Deep in the ground or with a body of water, the temperature is more constant than the air. So cold days this is good because you have something less cold to extract heat from. On hot days you have something cooler than outside air to do a heat exchange with. As touched on above, even a few extra degrees with what you are doing a heat exchange with can make a wild difference in power usage, so these other systems exchanging with the ground deep into the ground or at least with a body of water such as a swimming pool or say a pre-water heater tank tend to be dramatically more efficient than open air heat exchange systems, especially if you live in a place with real seasons. If you say live in SoCal, maybe you don't care as much in the winter, but in the summer you will feel the pinch more as it still gets hot outside and this is not ideal for open air exchange.
Tesla/Musk just announced a custom planned/built community for GigaTexas employees - seems like the logical place for prototypes to be installed and tested!
The more I investigate TESLA the company, the more I see why people invest in TSLA. Innovation is built into the dna of the company. I just started buying shares this month.
TSLA is over-priced from a P&E ratio. Charlie Munger and Berkshire Hathaway doesn’t buy it or short it. Bill Gates took a large short position on TSLA and then wanted to collab with Elon on green energy. 🥴Can’t make this stuff up🤪😎🎉
Ok, Tesla developed an air conditioner that can run "backwards" - just like every other modern AC. But there is one thing that was not mentioned in the video: The main difference between a Heatpump and an AC is the location of the heating/cooling element. With ACs these heating/cooling elements are located high up below the ceiling of a room because cold air sinks down to the floor. This is great for cooling but bad for heating. The heating/cooling elements of heatpumps need to be located at the bottom of a room or even inside the floor in order to efficiently heat the room. Heatpumps can also become quite inefficient if the difference between the outside temperature and the desired temperature is too high. That's why it is inefficient to use radiators with heatpumps as radiators typically require temperatures of 65 C (150 F) or higher. The best option for heatpumps is floor heating because it usually operates at temperatures around 35 C (95 F).
The problem with heat pumps is they don't create a massive difference though - aka, they wont work on super cold days in the winter without some extra heating. Either by gas or electric - there still still need to be some way to create heat if it gets bad out side. Short of that - they are pretty amazing tech that should replace all current heating/cooling systems in the future.
The explanation is backwards, after the expansion valve the refrigerant pressure and temperature drops massively and the refrigerant changes state from high pressure liquid to low pressure gas, the outdoor fan blows cold air over the now extreamely cold coil which collects heat from outside. The still gas refrigerant then returns to the compressor where it’s pressure and temperature are increased massively before being sent to the indoor heater coil. A fan blows much cooler room air over the very hot coil and the heat is given up to the room. The high pressure liquid then passes over the expansion valve. The process repeats and warms your home using winter air. The efficiency is around 300%, ie, you get three times more cooling energy out than the electrical energy put in. But as the weather cools the efficiency can fall off rapidly for a number of reasons, not least of which is the requirement to periodically defrost the outdoor coil.
I am sorry to say that despite your voice-over being mostly fine, and the diagram introduced at 5:22 being fine, the one appearing at 5:41 and again at 6:13 has incorrect labels on the two heat exchangers. The outdoor exchanger is the evaporator and the indoor one the condenser, because this is what happens to the working fluid (refrigerant) in each. It is the latent heat in going from liquid to gas and back again that is being exploited. The compressor squeezes the gas into a superheated vapour which the indoor heat exchanger condenses into a liquid while giving its heat to the indoor air, and the expansion valve allows the liquid fluid reduce in pressure making it cooler (much colder than outdoors), which the ambient temperature then boils back into a gas. In a reversible heat pump, with a few extra valves, the roles of the two heat exchangers can be reversed. Otherwise a great video giving insight into how Tesla's engineering team is streets ahead of the competition.
The problem is that I can cool my house with 3 tons of AC, but need at least 7 tons of heat pump to heat it. Delta t summer 30 degrees F, winter 80 degrees F. If I increase my insulation then I still have to have a considerably larger unit for heating than cooling. Extremely inefficient. I'll keep my 96% efficient gas furnace. For now replace all the old inefficient furnaces and boilers first.
Most refrigerants are not 'harmless' most currently in use have huge global warming potential. Better than a gas boiler but really careful refrigerant choice will be really important.
If the Tesla Heat Pump is quiet, room sized units are more appealing to some than massive whole house units. Why? As an example, my house has a highly efficient Bryant central HVAC for the downstairs and a separate, even more efficient, Mitsubishi system with in-room cassettes in each rooms upstairs. I expected the upstairs units to provide better flexibility, but it isn't enough to manage the differences between the shady east bedroom and the sunny west bedroom, especially in the spring and fall when the first needs a little heating and the second cooling. Furthermore, in addition to having totally cryptic and confusing remotes to control the cassettes (with no central control) our mitsubishi cassettes sometimes click loudly and randomly, even when turned off, making them non-ideal for the bedrooms they are in. As a consequence, we have considered having the Mitsubishi system ripped out and replaced with window units and space heaters, at least in a couple of bedrooms. So, at least in my head, my ideal home HVAC would perhaps have a central fan with heating/cooling units in each room cable of conditioning the air and pumping heat out of or in (or dare I dream, BETWEEN) the rooms in the house, all managed via a Tesla designed and provided app on our phones.
Unfortunately Teslas heat pumps fail frequently. My friend's new MY had it's pump fail at 3 weeks old. Many have had their pumps changed several times.
thank you for reporting on the Tesla master plan, I don’t think I’ve seen any report on the heat pump angle. This video could stand a quick edit: “heat density” are not the correct words. it would be more correct to say move from one reservoir to another. Likewise, it would be more correct, to say convert electrical energy to heat, rather than increase heat density from the battery. I would have loved to hear if they were exploring different refrigerants, because while it is correct, R134A (and r410) are not as ozone depleting, they are heat highly potent heat trapping gases which is exacerbating climate change (look up heat trapping potential).
Tesla had one significant advantage over existing car manufacturers: they weren't trying to refit existing production lines. Ford and the others already have factories, so when they design a new part they try to make it work within the constraints of the existing systems. Tesla just builds something new specifically for it.
There's nothing stopping legacy manufacturers actually designing dedicated EVs from scratch but they still want to adapt their old designs that are less suitable. It's like they are only dipping their toe in the water when they need to jump right in! They'll get the message eventually but some risk going to the wall before that happens.
You can make methane with co2 from air and electricity. The electricity can come from wind or solar. The methane is a battery storing sunlight. You can get ethanol and methanol the same way. That is gasoline and diseal.
Probably depends on the local humidity. Icing of the external coil is always a problem in cool to cold regions. Sizing is another. There have been a number of stories of installers underspecing the HP to keep the installation cost down. But they run the electric resistive heat during the winter which drives the operating cost way up.
Nice to hear that. Heat pumps are a must for a decarbonized world. I came to that conclusion a long time ago. However, presently, heat pumps beat fossile fuels only if electricity comes from renewable sources. If you have to make electricity from fossile fuels at 40% energy efficiency, and then heat your house with a heat pump efficient at 250%, then this is no better Than heating with a furnace that is 95% efficient. Conclusion: Heat pump are a must, but renewable electricity must come first. Note that some parts of the world do have 100% renewable electricity. So these parts should switch to heat pumps ASAP. In Canada, the simplest and cheapest home solution is a mural a/c units with "inverter" technology. Another technology better adapted to larger buildings is geothermal heat pumps.
Yes! I definitely believe he’s on to something huge! Still can’t believe transitioning the worlds home and business heating will only cost $0.3T. The sooner Tesla can produce these units at scale and to an affordable price point the better.
Like the Hyperloop, robotaxi, FSD, tummels, solar roof. pure snakeoil. But he did get allot of blood on his hands when turning Ukrainian starlink off. that did cost allot of peoples lives. But Elon is a Ruski to the bone. Pals with Pootin
It is good to see that you in the US have started to adopt heatpumps for heating. A little surprising to me as you have been using heatpumps for cooling for such long time? Here in Europe we have been using it for both cooling and heating for more than 50 years by now. I guess the reason for why you in the US have been using fossil fuels for heating is a matter of cost.
Ah. That explains it, I had no idea US was lagging behind on this front. Like you say, heat pumps have been the go to technology for decades around here. (Though a little wood still goes a long way on those really cold days)
Resistive heat is not low efficiency. It is 100% efficient since the waste energy is expressed as additional heat. The reason heating with electricity is expensive. It is because of the hardware needed to transfer electricity to the heating unit. This includes the high tension wires and transformers and dams and nuclear power plants. Heat pumps are now up to five times more efficient than 100% because they do not create heat. They just move it.
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$0.3T is $300 billion, cost for the heat pumps, not $30 billion. Still an economically okay cost in comparison.
Wanted to say the same, but looked first for other posts. 🙂
Haven't even finished the video, but just wanted to see if anybody else caught this 😀. Now back to watching the rest of the video.
How many people starving is that, again?
@@natehirt4297 fewer.
@@natehirt4297 Throwing a trillion dollars at the starving people and it wouldnt change shit, solving hunger is not a question about money, believe it or not
I am a retired consulting mechanical and electrical engineer. During my 52 years of consulting I designed innumerable heat pump systems. I was very active in the early years of geothermal systems in South Dakota, working with utility companies and also architects. I gave up geothermal systems for commercial buildings due to the potential for inaccurate diagnosis of ground thermal properties ( which led to one of my fellow consulting firms design a high school that would not stay warm ). So, geothermal is good, so long as it is successful (duh ). Here in western South Dakota we can sometimes experience sub-zero temperatures, down to minus 20 deg. F. Depending on the quality and design of the heat pump system, you could see the unit running at a thermal efficiency of 1 to 1. This is far from the efficiencies of 4 to 1 at 40 to 50 degrees outside. Also, the total run-time hours in very cold climates is greater, leading to a shorter overall lifespan. My wife and I have four Daikin high-efficiency heat pump systems and one York nominal efficiency system. We also have one "pump and dump" geothermal system that is a water to water system, utilizing a water well for supply and the nearby river for discharge. This system produces approximately 115 degree heating water that supplies baseboard finned heating units and in-floor heat for our sun room. All of these systems are more expensive than typical gas heating systems, but are environmentally friendly. They also add compliment our solar panels and our Tesla Model 3.
As usual, you did a great job of explaining how you can get heat from the outside air. My warning to people is to be careful who installs and sizes the system, an good they are. PN
hey, I am pretty lame at all things electrical and house related. But I do need a heat pump. Can you point me in any direction, or tell me any brands to key in on? Thanks for the advice on choosing your designer and installer.
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Bjorn Nyland from Norway just made a video expalining what system he got for a new house. Air-to-water heat pump, so he'll heat the house with circulating hot water and the same heat pump makes hot water for bathroom/kitchen.
I predict that geothermal will improve. Too much demand for it to not. Might need better soil or hydrologic analyses.
The problem is when you live in a climate that actually gets down to temperatures around -34C, -30F. When a heat pump fails to heat your home because you arctic air decides to pay you a visit, why should some blowhard in New York that gets his avocado spread imported from California via airplane or train tell me I can't use natural gas to heat my home? I think this would has enough room for some fossils fuels, since most climate models fail to accurately accommodate for forest fires and volcanic eruptions, which spew gargantuan amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. And they have been for millions of years.
Technology is great and is a boon to our quality of life as well as our livelihoods, but sometimes they aren't and a 1 size fits all method is not what this world needs. People know electric cars work in cold climates they just don't work that well. You get half the milage, and in a state where there may be over 300KM, 187 miles between cities, it might just mean your death if your car doesn't make it. Improve the technology and people will buy it, and for God's sake use the benefits of stuff that actually.matter to people like quality of life and cost savings to convince them.
The heat pump in Teslas performs a number of temperature regulating tasks. It would be interesting if a device designed for the home could combine the functions of a water heater, refrigerator and air conditioner/heater. If you think about it, it's kind of nuts that we have one box that we use to pump heat from inside the house outside and another that we use to pump heat from a box containing food and pump it into the house.
That would be awesome for tiny homes, vans and boats where you get refrigeration and hot water from one appliance. An all in one freezer/refrigerator/water heater would be awesome. Also make the freezer at least as big as the refrigerator section because those applications frequently involve storing a lot of frozen food.
Yes, I think this will be what the Tesla product will do. An octovalve for your home. I think it might also include solar panel cooling as a heat source. It would also be interesting if they could develop a heat pump based cooking appliance…
The octovalve is good. It’s not just that Elon is brilliant, but he seems to smell talent and isn’t afraid to do stupid things.
Tesla is a new American car company. I root for Ford and Chevy, used to like Chrysler but they are now to Dodgy
🤦🏻♀️
If one of my Toyota/Lexus reaches end of life, I might go EV.
I’m ditching my spare BMW since my rarely-used turn signal stopped working.
Not to get political, but the I’m glad that the Inflation reduction act was Signed into law so that it wasn’t a sad bill on Capitol Hill.
There’s an accessible amount of deductions for the middle-class. Much better than the capital gains tax reduction under Trump.
I've thought about it a decade ago, refrigerators should come with a vale system that comes with external home hookup (a mini evaporator, possibly passive) while also being able to hook into the homes HVAC electrical just to know if you are set to heating or cooling. Simply when the heat is on it operates as normal refrigerators do and when cooling is on the vales would then pump heat out side of the house.
Then of course it could also run on a mini-split system as talked about in this video.
That has existed for decades.
2:54 - 300B, not 30B.
The beauty about Elon's strategy is, for every problem find a simple solution that can be mass produced! His vision is always so gigantic that it is awesome!
Modern refrigerants have solved the ozone depletion problem. However, current generation refrigerants used in heat pumps (R-410a, R-32, etc) still have a Global Warming Potential (GWP) that are hundreds of times greater than CO2. If your HVAC system catastrophically leaks out, you've more or less blown your entire carbon budget for the year. Therefore, high quality workmanship when installing a minisplit heat pump is critical. Upcoming generations of refrigerants will solve this problem, but they aren't at commercial scale yet.
Yes
Well said
However, most people have an AC unit which contains the same harmful chemicals, so the energy and carbon saved by eliminating the furnace is still valid.
R-600 is cheap and efficient with near zero GWP or ozone depletion but DuPont doesn’t make enough off of it so it’s relegated to sealed small fridge and freezer units.
Musk develops new materials to suite his needs so if a new refrigerant is key to obtaining the 3rd pillar toward world domination then he’ll do that.
In New Zealand, about 40% of homes use a heat pump. All new homes have them. Still some way to go though! Off course all heat pumps do both heating and cooling. We use them in our Ski Lodge with outside temps down to about -12 deg C, and they still work fine.
Great video, thanks for explaining things as you always do. I believe there's an error at @2:50, 0.3 Trillion should be 300 billion rather than 30 billion.
A couple other mistakes that stood out to me.
The refrigerant, r134a isn't harmless. It is better than r12 for the ozone, but is still a green house gas and has other issues. It is already banned in some places. The replacements are again a little better, but still have problems.
Resistive heating isn't the only reason EVs aren't good in the cold. Colder temps also slow down all chemical reactions and the batteries used are chemical batteries. Hence lower output performance and slower charging to boot. Also, very low temps degrade and shorten the lifespan many types of rechargeable batteries, lithium chemistries are included.
yea, I caught that one, too, and was about to say something
Also, Tesla did not lay out a plan to eliminate 100% of fossil fuel dependency. For example, material production is a huge industry; plastics, ammonia, cement and asphaly all require fossil fuels.
@@leonardokremer4493 Elon has also said its impossible to eliminate fossil fuel usage just reduce the usage and carbon output.
picked up that one as well. $300billion sounds much more like it.
Ac technician here… heat pump tend to freeze up at the condensing coils in outdoor temps below 32 degrees. So outdoor unit must defrost every 30/60/90 minutes if the outdoor coil sensor is triggered (depending on board program). Defrost operation means the hot refrigerant goes to the outdoor coil to thaw the ice but the cold refrigerant goes inside. This means the cold air will blow out of your vents in heat mode. To compensate the cold air. Most heat pumps engage auxiliary electric heater elements to provide heat at that point. Heater elements draw a ridiculous amount of electricity compared to a heat pump.
So my point is if we are still burning fossil fuels for our general power grid then the emissions are not going away they are being transferred to the initial power station that is having to create more energy to run the electric heaters. Most gas furnaces are 120v and hardly pull any electricity
I have solar and batteries at home. Getting more solar to go to a heat pump to replace natural gas furnances right now.
With that said, you provide good information. Your "get over it" comment about natural gas stoves is out of line.
I prefer natural gas for cooking. When someone tells me that I "need to get over it" makes me (and a lot of people) want to keep whatever that is even more. If you want to get people to change their behavior, present the facts and let them make a decision like an adult.
Spare me the "save the earth" comments. With all the investments that I have made in solar, batteries and a model Y is significant and my personal choice. I didn't do it to save the earth, I did it because for me, I would rather give my money to companies that reduce our reliance on monopolies (the untily companies) to someone else.
Heat pump heating/cooling systems have been taking over the HVAC market on new construction for years now- even before Tesla started talking about them.
Heat pump engineer here! Heatpumps do create heat, they don't just move heat from one place to another. When the refrigerant is compressed by the compressor motor it turns some of the energy (electricity) into heat. That heat energy then moves with the other heat, that was captured at the evaporator end, to the condenser side where it is transferred into the space/medium that you want to heat. It all depends on the efficiency of the system. A good air to air system gets to a COP of around 4, meaning it produces 4 times more heat energy than it needs electric energy.
R134a is NOT harmless! Its actually pretty bad for the environment! It's got a very high global warming potential. Also, it's not very useful for heatpumps! OMG, dude can you call me up before you make your next heatpump related video?
@@Chriko_labs Thanks.
I am a retired HVAC engineer in Portugal and I believe we can always increase efficiency sometimes by adding small changes and approaches. Let's keep our minds open and never be comfortably resigned that we achieved the peak of perfection.
Heat pumps have been around for decades. They've been getting better over the years as well. Present day heat pumps can achieve a coefficient of performance (COP) of 5. This translates to 500% efficiency. Very impressive, but heat pump COP drops as the temperature difference (inside air temp - outside air temp) increases. So... when it is relatively warm outside (say 55 deg F) the heat pump can put lots of power (in the form of heat energy) in your house efficiently (even though you don't need all that much power on a 55 deg F day). However, at 10 deg F day, the heat pump's COP is significantly lower... maybe 3? (not sure on the exact numbers here). This is fundamental to the way heat pumps operate. So, when you really need lots of power (in the form of heat) coming into your house, the heat pump delivers less power. At some point, the power needed is below what the heat pump can provide. this is where resistive heating comes in. Resistive heating is effectively a COP of 1. In this case the electricity requirement increase significantly. Designing a heat pump system for a house is an exercise in finding a right size solution. Interestingly, when a cold spell hits, your electricity demand can really jumps. So the grid needs to handle the worst case heating requirement. This will generally occur at night, which is also the time most folks will be charging their cars. So... as we increase to 50% or more EV adoption, we will want to charge our EVs at night, but if the weather forecast is for really cold temperatures, we may want to postpone EV charging until the next day. Funny how these things work out!
Can Tesla produce a heat pump product for home heating that is more efficient and lower cost than the like of Carrier or Train or Amana etc... ??? Probably, but I suspect it will take a little time to achieve this and produce it at scale.
Well its all about getting the energy grid smart and have flexible prices.
In germany i have a contract with the energy company and pay the same price for it over the whole year. doesnt matter it its day or night which doesnt make any sense, since during the day there is a lot of solar or wind power and the prices for energy can even get negative due to the high supply.
If we have a lot ov EVs or Powerwalls we just need to make it attractive to people to use the energy during the day(low price) by providing enough charging stations, change habits to use the washing mashine/dishwasher, charge up your power wall and when its evening(higher prices) you should benefit from giving some of your energy back to the grid for a bit of profit. Of course this has to be high enough that it compensates for your battery usage/degredation.
Like 95% of people do not need there car at 100% to get to work the next day. Imagine you could opt in for helping the grid and define a percentage of your battery if its above a certain lvl.
if you tell your car you need to go on the road at midnight and need 100% then it will charge. if you do nothing and have it set to give the grid 10% battery if its at least 60% charged it will put these 10% into the grid for 2x, 3x the energy costs and when the demand for ernergy falls down at night it will charge.
you wont feel that 10% and your car will still have 100% if you get up in the morning.
It would be really interesting to get the numbers on this. Like what are 10% of all evs battery storage in kwh if we have 50% ev adoption?
The EVs providing energy would even prevent more blackouts since at this point there a like millions ov little "power plants" providing the energy and the energy only takes the shortest/easiest route to the place where it is needed and doesnt need to be transported thousands of miles from the power plant to the homes.
Some villain earthquake/tornado/putin riding on a bear destroyed some cables?
Guess what? You wouldnt know it because your ps5 shuts off but the news telling you that there is some emergency and they are working to fix it.
The only inconvinience for you is do decide if you want to keep your energy to yourself, or give some more % to the grid until the problem is fixed.
Good explanation. That said I'm skeptical Tesla can beat efficiency of current units.
@@muskepticsometimes9133 market awareness? Hopefully it works out.
I haven’t played with Chat GPT since it doesn’t do porn, but the OP doesn’t pass my Turing test. 😎
Tesla is in no position to compete with existing HVAC manufacturers for non-automotive applications without a massive funding commitment. Given the poor economic climate and Musk's foolish foray into Twitter, there is no funding available. Easy money days are over. Tesla's engineers are to be commended for adapting existing technology to provide automotive heating /cooling with modern digital controls.
Very interesting
I think that the best way to explain a heat pump is to think of how your freezer gets warm at the back when it is running, and just imagine that by running a heat pump you are reversing that, and essentially making the outside air even more freezing cold than it already is, while making the inside of your house warm. You are turning the outside of your house into a deep freezer compartment. Because the amount of relatively warm air out there (compared to a deep freezer) is practically infinite, you are never going to run out of heat to warm your house.
134a is defently not harmless. Its global warming potential is still 1000 to 3000 times higher, compared to CO2. A lot of inovation has to go into refridgerents to develop climate friendly, safe and efficient heat pumps.
We installed two outside Reverse-Cycle heat pumps (with 8 indoor fan units) when we built 12 years ago.
We are very happy the setup and would do it again.
The cost of heating is roughly the same as buying split wood for a slow combustion heater. (AU$270 per 1000 Kg of wood)
Something to consider is the amount of electricity used by the system when in stand-by mode. It seems to use about 2.5KWh per day just to run the electronics (Heating and cooling NOT used). Where we live in Australia that adds up to:
2.5KWh * 365 days * $0.40 = AU$365 per year (US$255 per year). Thats over $4000 in 12 years.
I have installed a number of mini-split heat pumps and I am impressed with their efficiency. I was surprised to see how the rest of the world has been so far ahead of North America in adopting this technology. My current favourite is the Fujitsu LZBS line. I expect Tesla's engineering can improve on an already-great product. Yes, community-wide where I live a concerted heat pump installation program has made a significant difference in home heating energy here on the Gulf Islands on the West Coast of Canada.
I'm in Norway where we mainly use electricity for heating. I've been at the heat-pump bandwagon for over 15 years, and they keep on improving.
Because in the states - managed progress' makes more money, than intentional efficiency _ 'Nothing personal', just business. 🌎🌦️
Americans will adopt anything as long as it is cheap and easy to install. All we need is the systems to be available for sale.🎉😊
Why Tesla has unlimited growth potential. Car batteries leads to utility scale battery storage, FSD gives us Optimus robot, Octavalve gives us home HVAC. With no end in sight, it’s wise to hold onto your shares.
Our house is heated by the heat pump and works just fine, but only till -12°C outside (and in Montreal it reaches sometimes till -30 and even lower during winter); then switch to an electrical furnace. The only heat pump that could function below -12 is Mitsibishi (as I know) and the cost is much higher.
Modern refrigerants are by no means harmless. Refrigerants have a Global Warming Potential (GWP). CO2's GWP is 1. R134A's GWP is 1,430. A common refrigerant for home systems is R410A which has a GWP of 2,088. There are newer refrigerants with lower GWP, such as R454B with a GWP of 466, but they aren't easily available yet. There is at least one company, Eco2Systems, building hot water systems that use CO2 as a refrigerant (GWP 1). States are starting write GWP limits into law. So, expect some changes to refrigerants in the coming years. And, whatever you do, DO NOT VENT refrigerants to the atmosphere!
Heat pumps YES - but only with quality insulation in our structures
Here in Australia we call them "Air-Conditioners" and everyone has had one for the last 30 years.
Murica
@@joshwhiting1974 Reverse cycle A/c is a better term as it implies both heating and cooling. This has been around for decades ;)
I do not remember ever in my entire life long experience of dependence on a combustible gas being told it is unexpectedly unavailable. Electricity on the other hand has become unexpectedly unavailable hundreds if thousands of times.
It can happen, but it's rare. I had my gas shut off because of a leak in a supply line outside my house, it took a few days to be fixed. Electricity of course goes out many more times. That being said, if you have rooftop solar and a battery maybe it's comparable?
I am not correcting you, but just providing a reading suggestion: You should read /The Grid/.
Bro where do you live that your electricity runs out
@@user-xv1vm5xc1freally.... Texas?
@@yootoober2009 I thought that only happened once or twice. I wouldn’t say Texas is out thousands of time. That’s like outages every hour.
I've been doing refrigeration work since 1971. Have geothermal pumps in 6 locations starting in 1987. Existing HVAC contractors have been very resistant to geothermal and laws don't give any push to geothermal.
Refrigerants: Propane is one of the most efficient materials. No magic there, it just works.
TESLA can certainly have more effect on total energy consumption with heat pumps than with cars. The sooner the better.
When you think that there's not much heat at say zero degrees F, and therefore not much heat energy available to add to your 65 degree house to heat it, you may be forgetting that any temperature above -460 F has available heat. And that zero degrees outside has a huge amount of heat compared to -460F and with the proper machinery, all of that heat is available to move inside. A similar argument works in the other direction to cool your house, though with different numbers.
Problem is efficiency drops w temperature. In Minnesota winter not great
@@muskepticsometimes9133 True, the energy required for the heat pump goes up with lower outside temperatures and so does the cost to operate, but that doesn't eliminate its value.
@@donsmith717 it reduces net value to zero at some point, and then negative net value. Look it up
@@muskepticsometimes9133 You have to add up all the numbers to see the cost, not only look at the edge case for bad news.
@@garethrobinson2275 electricity costs more per Joule than gas. Heat pump advantage is efficiency which declines w temperature. You can't simply proclaim cold weather an edge case
This video is well done, it does not talk about the simple reversing valve required to cool the interior instead of only heating, this is the wonder of the heatpump.
better install an octovalve...
Three problems with heat pumps for space heating.
First, vent exit air temperature of traditional heat pumps is lower than NG furnace. The air "feels" cold.
Second, heat pump efficiency falls at lower outside temperatures. Current heat pumps switch to resistance heating when outside air temperature falls below about 10° F (system dependant)
Third, grid capacity must be increased to meet electricity demand as furnaces are replaced by HPs.
All are solvable, but there's a LOT of work to do here.
Amazing video! A must watch!
I was able to run my own little experiment, I have a whole home heat pump system HVAC unit but our unit has an auxiliary resistance heater integrated into it. Sometimes I worry in it's age our HVAC system has become inefficient, it seems to run for longer than it used to. So I decided to run an experiment. I would disable the HVAC and run aux heating for a month and see how it influenced my energy bill.
My energy is 10-11 cents per KWH. I ran this test during spring when outside temp was on the rise but average was about 50F.
Our monthly electricity bill increased from around 90$ per month to 140$ for the month with the resistance heater. I eliminated all other variables. I then returned to the HVAC and it came back down to 92$ the following month. All other energy use was within monthly norms.
This clinched it for me, HVAC systems (heat pumps) are FAR more efficient when it comes to heating a home.
We have been using heat pumps here 🇦🇺for a very long time. We don’t go below freezing yet have found the lose efficiency at low temperature. The newer ones must be getting better.
I hope this happens sooner as opposed to later. Would love to see a heat pump line at each gigafactory.
My top of the line Lennox Heat Pump doesn’t even come close to the efficiency of natural gas, when temperatures are below 20°F. It gets even harder to pull heat out of the air the colder you get. -60°F in Alaska, good luck.
First, interesting video. Second, (minor error) .3T is 300 billion
R-134a is a potent greenhouse gas with a GWP (global warming potential) value of 1,430. In other words, the greenhouse effect of the R-134a refrigerant is 1,430 times the 100-year warming potential of the same volume of carbon dioxide. Not harmless.
My brother owns a geothermal heat pump. The earth is always 50 degrees several feet below the ground winter or summer. Less energy differences to fight against air vs ground. Smaller unit needed vs a traditional separate furnace and air conditioner. There are additional
Optional inexpensive metallic strips than can be added in the blower vs a separate expensive reserve resistance or gas furnace. It does not take that much more additional heat added to blower to really make things warm. My heat pump puts out 110 degree air
If the price is right, I would buy and promote tesla heat pumps for 🏡 homes. I want one!
Would someone block this jerk?
Another critique, the Mach E does not have a heat pump. The coolant system between the model Y and Mach E is what Sandy Munroes team were commenting on.
Teslas heat pump is great but that later half isn’t relavent to the heat pump, just the coolant system.
If Tesla made one competitively priced that worked well in MN I would buy it today.
Or Montana.
Too cold up North! Won't work well in temps under 40deg
@@stevekundzala676 false. Down to -13 they can provide 80% of rates BTU capacity in certain mini splits. A standard heat pump unit that most houses use, and mini splits are vastly different.
@@user-ln7of9gs4s Thank you! I didn't KNOW that, but suspected that a special unit may have better specs. I would NOT have guessed -13!
@@stevekundzala676 look at Mitsubishi mini split units with Hyper Heat. They also have a base pan heater in the outside unit. Mitsubishi has standard mini splits that heat and cool and higher tier that do the same but have different heating ratings for different outside temps. The seer ratings are different. They have units that from 6-12k btu that have seer ratings if 26-33 seer. You’re welcome.
Remember, a heat pump in a Tesla provides heat regardless of the temperature outside, to my knowledge. Think about that.
Heat pumps were notorious for working well in moderate temperatures in the sothern half of the United States but terribly in cold temperatures in the northern half. Electrical resistance heating elements were required for units in cold temperatures. Supposedly modern heat pumps have solved this problem. I wish your video would have explained how this was accomplished.
It's so weird to keep hearing about heat pumps as if it's something new... While they've been in use for >40 years in many other countries... It's called a reverse cycle air conditioner.
My understanding of heat pumps is the closer to 32 degrees Fahrenheit, the less effective the heat pump is because there is almost no ambient heat outside. That is why when it's really cold outside, the pump runs all the time struggling to keep a comfortable inside temperature of say, 72 degrees. My experience is that in such cases, the system always goes to its 'auxiliary' setting that is basically using electric coils to raise the heat. In this way, the heat pump is least efficient when you need it most. Is this correct?
32F is 0 Celsius, not absolute zero which is -273 C. All substances at greater than absolute zero contain thermal energy.
I wasn't exactly impressed with the heat pump idea in Northern climates until I saw numerous applications in Japan. I would be interested in learning how I could possibly incorporate the cooling component with a Warmboard radiant floor heating system. Can I cool the floor and coverings to cool a home? Maybe even use the water heater to augment the heat pump in the winter in a Northern climate?
Warmboard is prohibitively expensive. If you’re rich and bored, go for it. If you’re on any kind of a budget, don’t waste your time even looking at that product.
I understand that in cold weather heat can be scanvanged from electrical components and made into cabin heat but what about in hot environmnets when you want to cool the cabin and drivetrain components, where does the excess heat go?
The heat pump works like oil on a machine to withstand heat and cold and work better. Also more modern and efficient using its environment of energy and temperture to work better. Like being at equilibrium with the climate.
Small error at 2:50, $0.3T is not $30 billion, it's $300 billion
It’s nice that you can explain a refrigeration cycle but the colder it gets outside, the less efficient a heat pump is. In the Midwest, using an electric heat pump will result in a cold home and triple the heating costs. Natural gas is abundant, cheap and efficient.
Insulation is the answer ... then the reduced heat output is more than enough. That's much better than using fossil fuels to get the higher heat you presently need because of poor insulation ... then letting much of the heat escape from your house. No matter how wonderful natural gas may be at producing heat we have to move away from high carbon fossil sources.
Help if the source of the heat was factored into the heat pump.
Draw heat from a glass enclosed conservatory on the sunny side of a building in winter.
Dump heat into a shaded space on the cold side of a house with directed air circulation in summer.
Draw off any heat from where it is not wanted to where it is wanted ie Hot Water system and cooking.
Pay attention to where you want the heat and you should cut out a lot of system fighting system.
Also design systems to draw heat from solar panels to cool them so they are more efficient and last longer. Add heat storage into systems because it is cheaper/simpler to store energy as heat than electricity. This includes designing buildings to NOT waste energy and be passively comfortable.
@The Tesla Space: 2:50 0.3T is 300 billion not 300 billion... might want to add a corrective caption.
Its soo funny in a way that Ford and GM as well others auto companies need to learn from Tesler how ahead he come that no other person can't out match him! Love his ideas while other auto makers is failing badly.
That was one of the best explanations of how a heat pump works that I have come across. I'm going to share this with a few people to see if it shifts their confused view of heat pumps. I find that so many people still don't get that heat pumps are not about extracting hot temperatures from outside to inside. I get the answer so many times - "they only work properly when you don't need the heat". WRONG. 😀
Maybe take another look at your system my friend. In heat mode the condenser is on the inside and evaporator on the outside. Beside that, liquid refrigerant boils from a high pressure/outside ambient air temperature liquid, into a low pressure/very low temperature gas along the coils of the evaporator (absorbing heat from outside for the boil) it then is piped to the compressor that converts it to a high pressure/high temperature gas. The condenser receives the high pressure/high temperature gas from the compressor and transfers heat from the gas into the surrounding (inside) air as it converts into the high pressure/inside ambient air temperature liquid along its coils that is piped to the evaporator outside.
At -45°C a temperature frequently seen in several populated parts of the world; The outside air is still colder than the R134a, this is a hurdle for that refriferant.
I agree, live high in Colorado mountains (9500+' / ~3000 m). Answer is using water to water heat pump. I have a self-designed and installed hydronic floor heating system that at the moment uses propane (couldn't find the right size water to water heat pump to fit the space 5 years ago). I have 4 solar hot water panels that still get the heating water >150F on the coldest days mid-winter (we have lots of sun). This goes to a HW storage tank, then to the propane boiler to hydronic system and hot water for house. I want to replace the propane with a water to water heat pump that only needs about 75-80F water from the storage tank via a heat exchanger to create the 140F for the home heating. I don't know why these just aren't made for residential use. Lots of large commercial buildings I've worked on use this type of heat pump system to heat and cool the building (usually low temp gas boilers for heat) and cooling towers (evap coolers) for cooling. I've also got 6kW solar PV and battery so think this should be able to hold the house through the 5-day storms we sometimes get. If someone (Canada?) would make these they would be far cheaper and simpler than geoexchange with plenty of heating capability. We don't need cooling but it could also work that way if needed. It would be nice if we could find out just how efficient the Tesla heat pumps are in EER (standard rating for heat pumps).
Heat pump, geothermal and solar heat has a huge potential.
Here in Canada we can get 4X with a geothermal heat pump.
Still the old houses have almost no insulation, thus at some point it would be better to rebuild them.
Perfect as usual. Just not sure how many people with keen interest in Tesla wouldn't understand the principle of a heat pump. Funny enough, I read about the principle of heat pump sometimes back in 1985. But for various reasons I was unable to install one until some seven years ago. Yet last year, when the Ukraine-Russia war started and energy costs went suddenly up, some people said I was a visionary. 🤣
👆👆 Hit me up on telegram to start making money every 24 hours👆👆
This fits right in with their residential solar and optional battery backup systems. Would be nice to have the option of outside air heat exchanger or the more efficient geothermal heat exchanger (at higher installation cost).
Most impressive part of this video is Tesla's ability to automate the build process through comprehensive design__ that is truly inspiring..
The world is definitely ready to switch to heat pumps. They are already in wide use in many countries, especially those without gas lines running all over the place. Heat pumps reduce the cost of heating a home if you have electric heat, by 66 percent, and 33 percent if you have oil or gas. With Tesla's heat pump, which will no doubt be more efficient, the savings will be greater.
But they need a lot of maintenace.... A gas boiler don't!
@@ceesheemskerk2397 It's recommended that you have them serviced once a year, just like a gas boiler.
@@ceesheemskerk2397 WHAT? ARE YOU KIDDING?
@@barongerhardt As volumes increase, heat pumps will get cheaper, but here in the UK the aim is to reach a point where heat pumps are on a par with gas heating, so that as people age out their gas systems they will use heat pumps (where appropriate) to replace them. Poorly insulated homes tend not to do so well with heat pumps, but at the moment there is a lot of low hanging fruit. Also Tesla have done a great jobs of simplifying and streamlining the production of heat pumps for cars, and maybe they'll move into the home/office heat pump arena too.
@@simhedgesrex7097 I think for EVs, sure. ICE autos already have a free heat source. In the home, heat pumps are already a fairly common option and have reached near price parity with AC units. They will never get as cheap to produce, nor be as reliable, as the much simpler techs of resistive heating or combustion. The operations costs are where they get competitive, but we should also look at maintenance and get to a total life cycle cost.
Your insulation comment is interesting. I would assume it is some combination of under sizing of the heat pump and the larger temperature delta for heating vs cooling?
Hmm.. how about in areas where it gets really cold or really hot? Think they will design an affordable 2 stage heat pump?
For example: IF decompressing the refrigerant brings it down to -30°C and it is -30°C or less outside THEN heat transfer stops and the whole system stops working. On the coldest days people will have no heat at all. Hopefully they have backup: natural gas(cheap) or electric (expensive). They would have a heat pump they paid for and can't use year round.
Same goes for summer: IF compressing the refrigerant brings it up to 30°C and it is 30°C or more outside THEN the cooling system completely stops.
Right now, in Canada, we use heat pumps in larger commercial buildings but they also have other forms of heat. In 2 buildings I've worked in, we have to heat the heat pumps with gas heaters throughout winter so they don't get too cold.
@James Karrie source please. I searched for the term "variable inverter heat pump" but could not find exactly that. I found some Mitsubishi "inverter heat pump" technology but that was only good down to -25°C.
Did you perhaps mean "inverter-driven variable speed compressor" or "variable refrigerant flow (VRF)"? Even these systems don't claim to work in very cold temperatures. Only that they can maintain more consistent room temperatures.
I would love to read up on a system that can operate from -40°C to 40°C with a single compressor.
And if these do exist then why don't we install them. 🤔
How many days in the year you get -30c? So if you have to use a little bit of hydro or gas, it's not the end of the world & you still benefit widely from the Heat pump!
@Rozonoe Mi have you ever tried to sell a home owner two separate systems to heat their house?
Homebuilders don't care about efficiency, they only care about upfront cost and what is required by building code. If you want to make a difference, try and sell your idea to them.
Also, it was interesting to read that a gas furnace is more efficient than a heat pump below freezing. That would explain why my company keeps them around 5°C with gas heaters.
6 month/year is below freezing.
3 of those months regularly go below -30°C
So, no, I'm not seeing this "wide benefit".
Gas is cheap.
I think you could have improved your heat pump explanation by just explaining that heat is a thing and cold is just the absence of heat. Above absolute zero the air always contains heat. Heat pumps extract the outside heat and moves it to the cold place using the refrigerant that mechanism that you explain. Just like your refrigerator. it uses the same process in reverse to cool your house. Heat from the house is moved to the hotter outside making the outside still hotter (at least locally) and you house cooler.(relatively).
Love from Slovenia 🇸🇮!¡!¡
Heat pumps for homes aren't new. My current A/C for my house is an air to air heat pump, but the efficiency of the unit when the ambient temps are at 20 degrees Fahrenheit or colder becomes increasingly bad, and usually some type of secondary heat source (propane, in my case) is required. I looked into installing an underground water based (ok, glycol based) heat pump, instead of air to air it uses a closed loop glycol water system buried about 10 foot underground but it was expensive and after fighting with local bureaucrats trying to get an underground water loop unit installed in my house in 2015 I eventually gave up. I now own a Tesla, and the cabin heating/cooling system of that vehicle is a heat pump. I was (repeatedly) warned by people that the car would be cold or overly hot or it would completely kill the range to rely solely on a heat pump for cooling/heating the car but so far, even down to minus 10 degrees Fahrenheit or above 100 degrees the system works well. It does cost me some range but honestly its not uncommon for people to start their gas or diesel cars and let them just run for 10-15 minutes to get the interior of the car heated or cooled, depending on the season and doing that costs range for an ICE vehicle.
Heat pumps are awesome, I installed Mr Cool in my entire house 2 years ago, night and day comfort, massively less expensive to operate. Opposed to forced air, and 2 roof top master cool evaporative coolers. Heat pumps are definitely the way to go.
-JM
Where do you live, actually heat pumps freeze below 15C therefore in many cases are false economy, most manufacturers hide the fact by adding reverse flow of gas to thaw outdoor evaporation coil or many do even worse, add an electrical resistance heater, that is pure dumb but the average user dose not know that so these companies are scammers positec a product that is not fit for purpose. A lot of people are paid to give fake reviews etc, however the fact remains these things dibble work in cold weather when you actually need it to. Sorry to rain on the heat pump industry parade, I speak the truth so I will be silenced by big corps. I have done my own research but testing units. I can back it up. Fake technology except above 15 deg Celsius whatever that is in Fahrenheit, humidity also will have a varying effect on freezing. One lie used by these heat pump pushing sales people is: on cooler weather humidity is always lower and while that is partly true efficiency goes down quite a lot as well as humidity holds a lot of heat energy.
The world needs Tesla, or anyone to innovate and make these next-generation products to help save future generations.
In many parts of the world the dominant way of keeping temperature is already heat pumps.
Elon seems to never run out of exciting and innovative ideas.
Yes like the failed hyperloop, solar roof, robo taxi, tunnels, flying cars
@soeren72 True (to some extent) but Edison had far more failures than successes.
In 1992, my new stick built Glendale, Arizona 3 bedroom, 3 bath house was all electric including a central Heat Pump air HVAC rooftop unit. My bill never got over $61 dollars a month summer and winter...
Modern refrigerants are far from harmless, but they don’t destroy the ozone layer in the atmosphere
A refrigerator is a heat pump, it just can''t ge reversed like an HVAC can. So always get cold inside and if you check the coils behind the fridge, they're very warm
Your explanation for how a heat pump works is actually dead wrong in a couple of spots:
1. As commented on elsewhere, the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of the most commonly used refrigerants is huge. It is vitally important that these systems are designed to not leak and a fair amount goes into this. In some states at least, such as California, it is illegal to recharge an air conditioner until the leaks are fixed. You should never "run out of coolant" as I hear people talk about recharging their leaky old air conditioners over and over again, especially for say older cars as they have this ill conceived misconception that refrigerant is 'consumed' over time when in reality it only goes away due to leaks.. The fix for the GWP problem has actually been around since the dawn of air conditioning: propane. Yes, propane is a natural refrigerant and its GWP is orders of magnitude less than non-flammable refrigerants. However, regulators are afraid of it leading to fires, so it is not commonly used, especially not for large scale AC units / heat pumps. Personally, I think we have things figured out well enough to where we are just killing the environment for no reason by avoiding propane.
2. You are dead wrong about the explanation of fluid and gas in an air conditioner. Something to consider to get this story right is you see part of the refrigeration cycle all the time when you say boil water on the stove. You are constantly applying heat to boil water, but yet no matter high high you turn up the burner, the water sits at the exact same temperature. The reason for this is the phase change from a dense liquid to diffuse gas as in steam causes the working fluid, water in this case, to expand and cool. As the water expands and cools into steam, it takes out a great deal of heat from that pot of boiling water and thus cools it down to remain at the boiling point.
The other part of the air conditioning cycle you also see all the time while cooking is pressure. For one, go up to a high altitude and cook, say go on a backpacking trip to the High Sierras or Rocky Mountains or at least go to a high altitude mountain town. You have to cook for longer while cooking with boiling water because the water boils at a lower temperature. The reason water boils at a lower temperature is there is less pressure on the water. If you go into the vacuum of space, water will just boil until it freezes over. Actually, nothing can be a liquid in the vacuum of space. It is either a solid or a gas. The other thing you will see while cooking going in the other direction is cooking with a pressure cooker. Increase the pressure and you can increase the temperature that water stays a liquid. So then the water gets hotter before boiling and your food cooks faster with the higher temperature water.
So now go back to the propane example as propane is a natural refrigerant that is actually used in some air conditioners and apply the above. Propane when released from the bottle say into the room is a gas. However, while in the bottle it is primarily a liquid. The reason it is a liquid in the bottle is pressure raises its boiling point to cause it to become a liquid at room temperature. Now say attach a smallish bottle of propane to a large propane grill, especially on a cold winter day, and turn up the flames. That bottle will get cold, very cold even, and as the bottle gets colder, the flames will go down. The reason for this is the rapid release of propane gas from the bottle lowers the pressure and causes more propane to boil. Remember when water boils and turns to steam, it cools. In this case with propane, you are lowering the pressure to get the same boiling effect. But then as the propane cools, it boils at a lower pressure. Conversely, and I mention this because it is important for air conditioning, as the pressure increases, it boils at a higher temperature, or I should say it condenses back into a liquid at a higher temperature. So going back to the grill example, the bottle will get very cold, get condensate on it, and even start frosting up. As it does this, the pressure goes down and thus the flame goes down. I mention this because this is something you can actually do and see the refrigeration cycle in action and see I am not making this up.
So now getting back to why you are wrong with how a heat pump works. The compressor takes a cold, lower pressure gas and forces it into a hot, high pressure gas / liquid. This high pressure gas / liquid is relatively hot because it is suddenly more dense. As it goes through a radiator, it cools and becomes completely a liquid. So the liquid is only really on the hot side of the heat pump, which is what you were dead wrong about. The expansion valve allows the pressure to be lowered and so the liquid expands into a gas and cools and this is how you get the cold side. The cold side is always a gas because a gas is less dense than a liquid and this is achieved by lowering the pressure. At the low pressure it will remain a diffuse gas at a low temperature. This is the other part you were dead wrong about.
3. You put this all together into a how air conditioners / heat pumps really work, and it quickly becomes clear why efficiency goes down with large temperature differentials. As the temperature differential becomes bigger, you have to make the hot side a certain pressure to force the refrigerant into a liquid that matches the heat you are trying to expel from the hot side radiator. Then you have to lower the pressure to do the same on the cold side, except the refrigerant needs to be a low enough pressure to stay a gas. This phase change is used to make the air conditioner / heat pump efficient and the pressure differentials need to be great enough to completely change phases between a gas and a liquid. So the larger the temperature differential, the larger the pressure differential that the compressor needs to work with. This differential is not linear either. So for example on a hot day, that extra 5 degrees can make the AC consume wildly more power.
Each different refrigerant has a different boiling point. This effects its efficiency along with some other factors and effects the temperature range that it is useful for.
When you hear about people setting up their heat pumps to do a ground exchange or an exchange with a body of water instead of an open air exchange for heating and cooling, it should quickly become apparent now why this is advantageous. Deep in the ground or with a body of water, the temperature is more constant than the air. So cold days this is good because you have something less cold to extract heat from. On hot days you have something cooler than outside air to do a heat exchange with. As touched on above, even a few extra degrees with what you are doing a heat exchange with can make a wild difference in power usage, so these other systems exchanging with the ground deep into the ground or at least with a body of water such as a swimming pool or say a pre-water heater tank tend to be dramatically more efficient than open air heat exchange systems, especially if you live in a place with real seasons. If you say live in SoCal, maybe you don't care as much in the winter, but in the summer you will feel the pinch more as it still gets hot outside and this is not ideal for open air exchange.
Tesla/Musk just announced a custom planned/built community for GigaTexas employees - seems like the logical place for prototypes to be installed and tested!
The more I investigate TESLA the company, the more I see why people invest in TSLA. Innovation is built into the dna of the company. I just started buying shares this month.
TSLA is over-priced from a P&E ratio. Charlie Munger and Berkshire Hathaway doesn’t buy it or short it.
Bill Gates took a large short position on TSLA and then wanted to collab with Elon on green energy. 🥴Can’t make this stuff up🤪😎🎉
The first time I visited Canada back in 1988 everyone was talking about how amazing great pumps were.
Ok, Tesla developed an air conditioner that can run "backwards" - just like every other modern AC. But there is one thing that was not mentioned in the video: The main difference between a Heatpump and an AC is the location of the heating/cooling element. With ACs these heating/cooling elements are located high up below the ceiling of a room because cold air sinks down to the floor. This is great for cooling but bad for heating. The heating/cooling elements of heatpumps need to be located at the bottom of a room or even inside the floor in order to efficiently heat the room. Heatpumps can also become quite inefficient if the difference between the outside temperature and the desired temperature is too high. That's why it is inefficient to use radiators with heatpumps as radiators typically require temperatures of 65 C (150 F) or higher. The best option for heatpumps is floor heating because it usually operates at temperatures around 35 C (95 F).
Already running heat pumps in our house. Have 4 air split system airconds, and one of those is a reverse cycle unit in the bedroom.
The problem with heat pumps is they don't create a massive difference though - aka, they wont work on super cold days in the winter without some extra heating. Either by gas or electric - there still still need to be some way to create heat if it gets bad out side. Short of that - they are pretty amazing tech that should replace all current heating/cooling systems in the future.
The explanation is backwards, after the expansion valve the refrigerant pressure and temperature drops massively and the refrigerant changes state from high pressure liquid to low pressure gas, the outdoor fan blows cold air over the now extreamely cold coil which collects heat from outside. The still gas refrigerant then returns to the compressor where it’s pressure and temperature are increased massively before being sent to the indoor heater coil. A fan blows much cooler room air over the very hot coil and the heat is given up to the room. The high pressure liquid then passes over the expansion valve. The process repeats and warms your home using winter air. The efficiency is around 300%, ie, you get three times more cooling energy out than the electrical energy put in. But as the weather cools the efficiency can fall off rapidly for a number of reasons, not least of which is the requirement to periodically defrost the outdoor coil.
I am sorry to say that despite your voice-over being mostly fine, and the diagram introduced at 5:22 being fine, the one appearing at 5:41 and again at 6:13 has incorrect labels on the two heat exchangers. The outdoor exchanger is the evaporator and the indoor one the condenser, because this is what happens to the working fluid (refrigerant) in each. It is the latent heat in going from liquid to gas and back again that is being exploited. The compressor squeezes the gas into a superheated vapour which the indoor heat exchanger condenses into a liquid while giving its heat to the indoor air, and the expansion valve allows the liquid fluid reduce in pressure making it cooler (much colder than outdoors), which the ambient temperature then boils back into a gas.
In a reversible heat pump, with a few extra valves, the roles of the two heat exchangers can be reversed.
Otherwise a great video giving insight into how Tesla's engineering team is streets ahead of the competition.
The Prius has heat pump for years.
The problem is that I can cool my house with 3 tons of AC, but need at least 7 tons of heat pump to heat it. Delta t summer 30 degrees F, winter 80 degrees F. If I increase my insulation then I still have to have a considerably larger unit for heating than cooling. Extremely inefficient. I'll keep my 96% efficient gas furnace. For now replace all the old inefficient furnaces and boilers first.
Chemical refrigerant is NOT harmless at all, natural refrigerants are... 5:15 needs correction!
Could the heat pump work like pressuring or depressuring heat or cold in houses from the environment.
5:30 Why does your thermometer show 20ºF = 0ºC ?
Most refrigerants are not 'harmless' most currently in use have huge global warming potential. Better than a gas boiler but really careful refrigerant choice will be really important.
If the Tesla Heat Pump is quiet, room sized units are more appealing to some than massive whole house units. Why? As an example, my house has a highly efficient Bryant central HVAC for the downstairs and a separate, even more efficient, Mitsubishi system with in-room cassettes in each rooms upstairs. I expected the upstairs units to provide better flexibility, but it isn't enough to manage the differences between the shady east bedroom and the sunny west bedroom, especially in the spring and fall when the first needs a little heating and the second cooling. Furthermore, in addition to having totally cryptic and confusing remotes to control the cassettes (with no central control) our mitsubishi cassettes sometimes click loudly and randomly, even when turned off, making them non-ideal for the bedrooms they are in. As a consequence, we have considered having the Mitsubishi system ripped out and replaced with window units and space heaters, at least in a couple of bedrooms.
So, at least in my head, my ideal home HVAC would perhaps have a central fan with heating/cooling units in each room cable of conditioning the air and pumping heat out of or in (or dare I dream, BETWEEN) the rooms in the house, all managed via a Tesla designed and provided app on our phones.
Unfortunately Teslas heat pumps fail frequently. My friend's new MY had it's pump fail at 3 weeks old. Many have had their pumps changed several times.
thank you for reporting on the Tesla master plan, I don’t think I’ve seen any report on the heat pump angle. This video could stand a quick edit: “heat density” are not the correct words. it would be more correct to say move from one reservoir to another. Likewise, it would be more correct, to say convert electrical energy to heat, rather than increase heat density from the battery. I would have loved to hear if they were exploring different refrigerants, because while it is correct, R134A (and r410) are not as ozone depleting, they are heat highly potent heat trapping gases which is exacerbating climate change (look up heat trapping potential).
Tesla had one significant advantage over existing car manufacturers: they weren't trying to refit existing production lines. Ford and the others already have factories, so when they design a new part they try to make it work within the constraints of the existing systems. Tesla just builds something new specifically for it.
There's nothing stopping legacy manufacturers actually designing dedicated EVs from scratch but they still want to adapt their old designs that are less suitable. It's like they are only dipping their toe in the water when they need to jump right in! They'll get the message eventually but some risk going to the wall before that happens.
And the others have the advantage of knowledge to produce a car without massive panel gaps , Way better interior, and better handling.
You can make methane with co2 from air and electricity. The electricity can come from wind or solar. The methane is a battery storing sunlight. You can get ethanol and methanol the same way. That is gasoline and diseal.
So I'm curious how a heat pump in a Tesla works on a nasty -35°C (-31°F) morning here in Canada.
Probably depends on the local humidity. Icing of the external coil is always a problem in cool to cold regions. Sizing is another. There have been a number of stories of installers underspecing the HP to keep the installation cost down. But they run the electric resistive heat during the winter which drives the operating cost way up.
Nice to hear that. Heat pumps are a must for a decarbonized world. I came to that conclusion a long time ago. However, presently, heat pumps beat fossile fuels only if electricity comes from renewable sources. If you have to make electricity from fossile fuels at 40% energy efficiency, and then heat your house with a heat pump efficient at 250%, then this is no better Than heating with a furnace that is 95% efficient. Conclusion: Heat pump are a must, but renewable electricity must come first. Note that some parts of the world do have 100% renewable electricity. So these parts should switch to heat pumps ASAP. In Canada, the simplest and cheapest home solution is a mural a/c units with "inverter" technology. Another technology better adapted to larger buildings is geothermal heat pumps.
Yes! I definitely believe he’s on to something huge!
Still can’t believe transitioning the worlds home and business heating will only cost $0.3T.
The sooner Tesla can produce these units at scale and to an affordable price point the better.
My father used to say “there’s no such thing as cold, cold is the absence of heat”.
Hell Yeah Brother. Elon can do anything. His brain never stops!! He was put on this world for a reason and he is doing what he has to do!!!!
Like the Hyperloop, robotaxi, FSD, tummels, solar roof. pure snakeoil. But he did get allot of blood on his hands when turning Ukrainian starlink off. that did cost allot of peoples lives. But Elon is a Ruski to the bone. Pals with Pootin
That moment when $0.3T equals $30B
It is good to see that you in the US have started to adopt heatpumps for heating. A little surprising to me as you have been using heatpumps for cooling for such long time? Here in Europe we have been using it for both cooling and heating for more than 50 years by now. I guess the reason for why you in the US have been using fossil fuels for heating is a matter of cost.
Ah. That explains it, I had no idea US was lagging behind on this front. Like you say, heat pumps have been the go to technology for decades around here. (Though a little wood still goes a long way on those really cold days)
Resistive heat is not low efficiency. It is 100% efficient since the waste energy is expressed as additional heat. The reason heating with electricity is expensive. It is because of the hardware needed to transfer electricity to the heating unit. This includes the high tension wires and transformers and dams and nuclear power plants. Heat pumps are now up to five times more efficient than 100% because they do not create heat. They just move it.
Deep geothermal can offset many fossil fuels, if we focus on building more deep geothermal power plants.