The Crisis of Male Friendship
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Why doesn't Anthony Mackie like people saying his characters are gay? Is it true platonic bro-love is dying? Or is there something else going on?
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Sources:
Foucault, M. (2020). The history of sexuality. Penguin Classics.
Faderman, L. (2010). Surpassing the love of men: Romantic friendship and love between women from the Renaissance to the present. Alyson.
Bullough, V. L., & Brundage, J. A. (2010). Handbook of medieval sexuality. Routledge.
Anthony Mackie for Variety: variety.com/2021/tv/awards/an...
Collins, A. P. (1986). F. Scott Fitzgerald: Homosexuality and the Genesis of Tender Is the Night. Journal of modern literature, 13(1), 167-171.
Oscar Isaac Interview:
• 'Star Wars': Oscar Isa...
• Oscar Isaac Talks Poe ...
#gay #lgbt #anthonymackie - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
PHOTOSENSITIVITY WARNING 18:04 - there is a warning at the beginning but the timestamp is wrong.
Is that why the lighting was really bad?
It did occur to me that starting at 18:34 and ending at 18:31 was a little weird.
I hate how cute you are. Gimme. (7owo)7
I keep rewatching your videos whenever I'm sad and it always cheers me up! So please our saviour do an episode on Eddie/Venom and Athelstan/Ragnar Lothbrok pretty pleaaaaaaaseeeeeee :"D
Also is always why can't this TWO DUDES/TWO GIRLS just be friends and then turns every male-female friendship into romance with zero complains
I've seen people say Luca and Alberto can't be gay because they are "just close friends" and "why can't 2 guys just be intimate without being gay" and then say "but Luca likes Giulia"
it's wild honestly
@@tatsudragneel4761 ✨hypocrisy✨
Mostly about two dudes. The two girls parings don't disturb them as much.
@@respect6451 I wonder why??
Are people who use the argument "men can't be friends anymore" not aware that gay and bi/pan men still have male friends? Somebody tell them, please.
Honestly!! It’s annoying that we have to be the ones to blame for meanwhile me being a gay boy I have lots of male friendships (mostly gay men). Clearly we’re not the problem bc all my friendships with other gay guys have always been platonic, sometimes more intimate but always respecting boundaries. They need to stop blaming us for THEIR OWN insecurities
@@wonderland4515 Yes, exactly! Very well said, thank you
But that's the problem alot of people are shipping them because of there really close friendship when even if they were gay that still wouldn't mean they are gay for each other.
@@mrcoffee2634 whether or not friendships should be shipped depends on context, I think. There's always casual shipping - people who like to explore romantic what-ifs and will ship things just because it's fun, without actually expecting any payoff in canon content, and then there's shipping that's the result of characters having unexpected romantic chemistry, or just blatant queerbaiting. That's always still up for interpretation though, because it's not canon. I also think that if we did get more rep, or more than one (1) character in stories with gay rep, people wouldn't ship same-gender close friendships so often or so easily. Or maybe they would, because people ship friendships between men and women all the time too (without so much backlash though).
What I mean to point out in my original comment is that gay rep does not automatically erase friendship as Anthony Mackie and some other people seem to suggest. It's not one or the other. We can have depiction of mlm relationships and good male friendships in the same story. Straight men in mainstream media get to have both romances and "bromances" all the time, there's no reason why gay men couldn't have the same.
@@trueloveskiss5343you know what I find highly hypocritical? this level of touchiness over internet fandoms coming from straight men, who are the ones responsible for lesbians being fetishized left and right (including real life), and the majority of whom proudly admit to getting off to lesbian p*rn all the time
There really isn’t anything wrong with being platonically intimate with a person of the same gender. Just as there isn’t anything wrong with being romantically intimate with a person of the same gender. That’s why there shouldn’t even be a fear of being perceived as being gay with someone. Technically what Mackey just said was laced homophobia but presented as an inclusive statement. We don’t know if he’s even aware of that but the homophobia is still real and we can’t even ignore and forget that.
Okay, mackey stament have problems, but i dont think his pov is necessarily laced homophobia.
People are different. They have their own believes and identify themselves in their own way. Being confused as a gay man is not a bad thing because of gay, its a bad thing because you are being confused with something you are not. Not a terrible thing, just annoying. Its a confusion on your identity and people have the right to need to correct them. The same way i am annoyed when people confuse me as a straight man.
(I haven't seen the video yet, but i am familiarized with the manner and wanted to discuss it before being able to see it)
Indeed
@@professorrafaelrodrigues219 I totally see what you're saying, but I raise you the fact that a man and a woman who are friends don't normally find it bad or fear getting called a couple or together when in fact they're not. Theres just an unnecessary stigma around being supposedly gay with someone and I think that that is the issue here. As well as the fact that people are mistaken for things they don't want to be labeled as all the time. I have a twin brother and people have asked me multiple times if he was my partner, obviously that's a lot grosser considering we're related, but it's not the end of the world. You just move on and forget about it. I'm not gonna stop associating with him because we get those comments occasionally, you know what I mean? Does that make sense? But also, the other problem is that people are mad that others are assuming the potential for a relationship based on contextual signs within fictional characters (which are not real people, so it's okay to do). If they were real life people, then yes, it would most likely be intrusive and weird, but these are just fictional characters. As the youtuber presented in the video, there's a difference between interpreting books/shows/movies over real life relationships because writers often put in subtle connections that queer people are used to analyzing. If you've seen the captain america/buckey video then you would know that there are plenty examples in there for queer people to take as signs of queer characters.
@@professorrafaelrodrigues219 I know you say you hadn't seen the video yet, but this point is addressed, so hopefully you've watched it by now
Couldn’t have said it better myself
Mackie: "homosexuality is pure and beautiful which is why the fear of being accused of it makes me less likely to hang out with my bros"
🙄
Lmaao, right? Something doesn't add up. Not to say that as "good" intentions as calling it "pure" might be, it's still othering af and doesn't help matters in the real world.
@@Ash-hl2mr literally the only thing in my comment was a rephrasing of _what he said_ to highlight the hypocrisy of it accompanied by an eye roll. Where did I say anything about him as a person? Please tell me you're not one of those people who thinks pointing out inherent problems in something someone says is equivalent to attacking their personal character. Because you're in the wrong comment section for that
lmao, nailed it
You know what kind of platonic intimate relationship between man we need? Straight-Gay man friendship. I was so happy i got to see that in Sex Education with Otis and Eric. No fear of being read wrong, just bros being bros at its finest form.
Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry are an irl example!
Otis and Eric friendship is so cute!
there is also Gaby and Johnny from The Four of Us
Jonas and Isak (and the rest of their squad) from Skam are a good one too!
@@nicoleclasecruz7070 hell yeah i was gonna comment that! skam was so good, i love how they portrayed isak coming out and his friend's reactions
Sometimes, people think I look jewish, I'm not. So when someone asks if I am, I just say: "nope."
I don't have a mental breakdown like: "WHY WHY WHY WOULD YOU THINK I'M JEWISH!??1 DON'T MAKE A TINY MISTAKE IN THINKING FOR 5 SECONDS THAT I'M THE WRONG ETHNICITY BITCH-"
This is how straight guys react when someone asks if they might be gay.
Would you react the same if i call you republican? 🤣🤣🤣
@@geardestroy OH YEAH, that's the only valid reaction, in fact.
I knowww… it’s annoying that assuming someone is LGBTQ is the only thing that will get a reaction out of people. It’s not a big deal just say no and move on.
and when they fail to realize that the only reason so many ppl get mad for being assumed as gay is because there's a stigma around being gay.
I have the opposite problem 🤣
When I interpret two characters as gay, it rarely has to do with their actions alone. Of course holding hands isn't inherently gay. But when narrative and framing often used at the beginning of a straight relationship are applied to two characters of the same gender, I'm going to read it as inherently romantic. Holding hands with your best friend isn't gay. But you know what is gay? Holding hands with your best friend, while staring longingly at them, with romantic music swelling in the background, framed by a lingering shot on your faces. Real life doesn't have background music and lingering shots. It's the narrative and framing that are gay, not the action.
THIS EXACTLY
Very well said
Basically the entirety of Destiel in a nutshell lmao. They really threw every single romantic trope at us, created tens and hundreds of parallels between them & straight couples, and then called us crazy and delusional for expecting them to get together ❤️
Yes! Take Falcon and the Winter Soldier as an example. That was framed so romantically. The couple's therapy scene with their knees interlocked? That would be undeniably romantic if one of them was a woman, but the second that framing is used between two men it apparently loses its romantic charge all of a sudden. Or when they tumbled through that field with one landing on top of each other and pausing on them staring at each other for a beat before one pushes the other off. Undeniably a romantic trope (maybe with an accidental boob grab thrown in if you're a trashy anime) but because it's between two men we shouldn't read anything into it despite that not being the case in any other instance? Yet Bucky exchanges a smile with Falcon's sister and the audience is supposed to immediately feel the romantic tension as if they just stripped each other bare with one look. Please.
@@juicybutterriblydrab so glad you mentioned sambucky shfjdhs
Truly, people like to overthink their relationships. I am a gay woman who's been very, very platonically intimate with a gay man for the last 10 years or so (QP), and neither of us has had a crisis over being assumed a couple or over our own sexuality. We're best friends, we're very affectionate, we're happy. Who cares about the rest?
I am also a lesbian with a very very platonically intimate gay man best friend!! We are very physically affectionate. It is fun to see other people who experience the same relationship as we do :)
Well, that's good for you. Because whenever I actually manage to have a platonically intimate relationship with a man, there will be ALWAYS another friend of mine who wants to tell me what a good match we would be and why we ain'T together yet and it's so exhausting. Because it always makes me question myself, like, "What if he wants that? What if I want it and doesn't realize that?" And this makes me truly anxious and I hate it. I would just like to be friends with them. However, this girl that I'm actually interested in, we do the same things I also did with these male friends, even more, and not one single person has made any suggestions or any questions in this direction. It's so ironic.
@@DieVorleserin-ok8zr Yeah, heteronormativity is a bitch.
I'm always assumed to be the whichever-friend-I'm-with's couple since I'm fairly androgynous.
I'm also aro/ace so it gets kind of annoying that everyone goes "you would make such a good couple!" withought considering none of us might be straight and/or interested.
Sadly not much we can do though...
That's it. People need to look for their own business and stop complaining about others relationships.
I personally think that with how close I am with some of my friends it would be more insulting if nobody thought we are a couple.
Honestly though, you really hit it out of the park. I've seen the "protect male friendship" cry for so many years and while there's been push back, I've never seen it addressed as thoroughly as it is here.
It's the same thing of 'WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN/WOMEN'. It's just a disguise and an excuse to promote an agenda.
@@angeljaceherondale I usually refer to them as " your straight agenda is showing" type of deal. They ain't slick.
there' another video i definetly recommend if u like this! james somerton made a video on this too, but it's a bit longer
Yeah it’s nice to see it all explained so well
@@lillianabright03
What’s the video called.
I mean a girl can't be friends with a guy without someone assuming they're a couple and “shipping” them.
But that's totally okay, because that's ✨heterosexual✨
This is why I have a hard time making male friends and hanging out with them because everyone thinks we're dating all of a sudden 🙄.
The same happened to me during middle school. A teacher started shipping me with a male friend of mine. At first I humored it but then it got to the point that a good portion of my whole class started to tease us about being a couple. It turns out that the person did used to have feelings for me at the time and I started to develop a mini crush but it didn’t last that long. But even after the feelings went away people still teased us about being an item.
@@TiredHumanBeing tbh males especially Masculine ones don't like hanging out with women .
I can't even hang out with my own brother in public without feeling uncomfortable 😖
Me as an asexual with friends of different genders... I was always scared of being seen as a couple, but also glad to have people who wouldn't try and assume a friendship was something other than what it was.
there is a big difference between just shipping two dudes because you think they'd be an interesting couple and looking at a character and thinking they are heavily queercoded, or is used to purposefully queerbait. (and both are valid, but people like Mackie just don't understand the difference). a lot of times, the same types of people just chalk both situations up as headcanons, while simulatenously thinking that they're being pushed on everyone. it's like fandom 101, headcanons don't need to be accepted by everyone but shouldn't be ridiculed, and finding that a character is queercoded is analysis (that can be attributed to certain readings of the media), not a headcanon.
Also, they forget things such as metaphors and symbolism in cinema that are used literally EVERYWHERE to point out romanticism in context.
“Shipping” almost never comes out of nowhere.
@@mrsgansey3521 While your point is valid and i super agree with it, Crack Ship is a thing...
@@ttwilight_dragon yeah, I know.
That’s why I wrote “almost never”- meaning, that mostly, the most popular ships in fandoms are the ones who have the metaphorical emphasis on them, rather than just “oh, they look cute together”.
Say Naruto and Sasuke, Sam and Bucky, and etc.
However, shipping any characters without reasoning is super cool as well, and shouldn’t be frowned upon)
Unrelated, but your profile pic is 🔥🔥🔥
I mean, couldn‘t you technically you could say that different intepretations and analyses are some sort of headcanon
Mackie had no problem shipping himself with Black Widow, but when people started shipping him with a dude he was suddenly concerned about portraying platonic friendships 🤔😂
yeah kinda homophobic lol
@@gwenstacysrealbf755 he's... an interesting guy, the sandwich thing he said sounded like straight up misogyny but he spinned it to be equality?? but then if you look into it even a little bit it's really just fancy misogyny
@@liyre4189 he literally said "make daddy a sandwich" ... fucking gross
He can ship himself with whoever he wants it's not homophobic
@@demetriusmarshall8226 the fact that he can ship 2 characters with different genders but w fewer interactions, however being afraid of people shipping characters with same gender (+ Marvel's queerbaits) and quickly explaining that they're strongly platonic is, in fact, homophobic.
Not saying that it's just fiction. Did people ship Sebastian and Anthony romantically? No
If I took a shot every time somebody asked me if I “had a boyfriend” I would be comatose. No Janice, but I do wish I had a girlfriend, thanks for asking.
word
Period.
Truth!
Preach ✌🏽👑
Dude after Mackie's comments I had so many thoughts about why I disagreed with his pov. The one thing I deeply disagreed with as a q person was his mention of the "purity" of homosexual love and how it shouldn't be perverted with other purposes (I'm paraphrasing). But I saw a heck of a lot of people defending him and not open to listening to anyone that thinks any different. Each person is allowed to have their own thoughts, but I remember having no one online to actually talk with about why his comments rubbed me the wrong way. Your vid truly reflects my thoughts about why I was uncomfortable with his words. Oh man, I love your channel.
I recommend taking a tour of his other past interviews where he speaks about being raised on homophobic views and trying to break away from them, and his comments and work on *actual* queer representation in projects he starred in, as well as the issues of masculinity and portrayals of it in the black community, before you condemn him for one slightly poorly worded statement the interviewer led him towards bc the interviewer likes to throw black men under the bus. Because he HAS spoken about that at length, and with a lot more grace.
And he's not wrong to condemn the way the industry is milking queer fandom without committing to on paper representation. Mackie doesn't owe the fandom or Marvel performative queerbaiting for brownie points.
@@Inkcharm milking the fandom for views without commiting is wrong of course, but thats not what he meant here, at least not how it came across. He mentions some actions being masculine as if masculinity equals fighting bad guys and being strong, as if a masculine man couldn't be it and also be gay. Purity? Homosexual love is not pure and sacred, just as heterosexual love isn't pure or sacred. Like I mentioned above, we can all like Mackie while acknowledging his comments do feed into a type of homophobic excuse used by conservatites. I do agree the interviewer was crap (as it was the way they made headlines with his comments just to feed rage) but if he can talk without worries about his imaginary love story between the falcon and black widow, I see no difference between talking about the same character in a relationship with a man y'know? There's no difference. He has played q characters before and that's great but it doesn't mean he can't say things that just further the prejudice on the lgbtqia community (even if it wasn't his intention)
As a gay person, the different ways that made me disagree and feel insulted by his comments were explained pretty well in the video.
@@mrubbykat He literally said two sentences before this soundbite that he doesn't really engage with fandom and doesn't really know about it.
So you think the process was: is asked about fandom perception. admits that he doesn't really get fandom and lets them do whatever. is asked about how he feels about movie portrayals of male friendships. mentions people twist portrayals to furtheir their own agenda / exploitation of homosexuality - and THIS suddenly refers to fandom, which he doesn't know about, rather than the movie industry and marketed queerbaiting, which he DOES know about and which some of the FATWS writers did and were rightfully called out on? SURE. That's not at all a biased way of interpreting what he's actually saying here.
But even if we assume he was actually suddenly knowledgable about something he doesn't even look at by his own admission, and suddenly knows how fandom engages with shipping.
you honestly gonna tell me that he'd be wrong to call out the fetishization of mlm relationships? because uhm. As a queer fan who engages with a lot of fandom... mlm ships are *absolutely* 100% fetishized by fandom. I'm not saying shipping in general is that, not at all. But I mean. If the shoe fits... from heteronormative dynamics being enforced upon mlm ships to the fetishization of trauma and a broad variety of racist issues, shipping fandom ain't the amazing activism people seem to think it is.
Again, HIGHLY unlikely he even meant that. This is a 43 year old extremely busy man who is staying so far away from fandom spaces that he's thankfully not even aware of how racist some fans are about him (he said so himself when asked if he was aware of the racist discourse towards him. said he's not seen it. smart man.)
Btw, you're also taking his explanation on Sam's vulnerability and sensitivity + superheroes and masculinity the wrong way. He talked about how important Sam Wilson is to him bc Sam isn't the guy who will solve every issue by beating someone up, and how it's important to Mackie to show other forms of masculinity, and that Sam is the kinda guy who will try to understand someone and talk them back from the ledge rather than shoot them down. And that he loves that he gets to have emotional intelligence and sensitivity and vulnerability while being a superhero, which is often seen as this hypermasculine ideal. It was a commentary on how it's important in a genre built on the idea of manly men being manly and kicking ass that there are different types of masculinity that don't make anyone less hero material, so like.... he's making the points you want him to make, BUT OKAY.
Like I understand the hurt, believe me, I do. It was my gut instinct at first, too. But hear me out: Read this interview. He makes the same points but more eloquently and better, and you'll maybe see that he's actually advocated for black queer stories to be told because he thinks that's important. Tell me why in the space of a few weeks he would flip his stance from what he says here to 'no homo pls, dear fans' when actually everything he every says on these topics is framed in the context of his personal experience, black communities, and hollywood as an industry. almost like it's much more likely he's talking about industry queerbaiting when he's happy to play *actual* queer characters that are *actually* written as queer rather than help a studio get pats on the back for teasing and coding....
www.latinxspaces.com/latinx-comics/anthony-mackie-an-odyssey-by-interview
Indeed
I don't understand (should have that on a tshirt). Why was him calling homosexuality pure wrong? Sounds weird for sure, but I don't get Your point.
Two men on screen hang out together-
someone: Hey they could be in love!
Someone: what do you mean in lOvE can't men be close friends nowadays without you thinking their G-gAy
A man and a woman on screen hang out together-
someone: Hey they could be in love!
Someone: haha lol my thoughts exactly 🥴
Which is why I love Robin’s coming out in Stranger Things, maybe out of sheer pettiness. I mean, it felt good seeing people moaning “they would have been such a good couple.” It was specially satisfying bc I was sure they introduced her to the story just so she could end up as Steve’s girlfriend, and you probably know why that in itself is.. not ideal, to put it simply.
@@arol1644 Lol yeah, you put it perfectly. I love Maya Hawke for that reason.
It actually pisses me off when I see people ship Robin and Steve, because it's outright stated that she likes women not men, and the people who complain about her being lesbian/ship her with Steve *always* end up being the same idiots who shit their pants when someone suggests Will could be gay.
But that's an essay for another day.
@@arol1644 THEY GOT STRAIGHT BAITED AND I LOVED IT
Yes dipshit because men and women have become lovers from friends since the dawn of time whereas gay are a new thing
@@mandoilovepussy "Gay are a new thing"
...I'm guessing you're not very familiar with Ancient Greece...
Pushing heteronormativity is also extremely misogynistic:
Instead of portraying female characters as equals to the male ones, they often are seen as “the main character’s prize at the end of the movie” or “a love interest with no personality or depth”, or “that thing to build family with to keep making sequels out of their children”.
They are often nothing more that that. And obviously people will start shipping two men who had chemistry together, instead of a girl who is literally objectified and portrayed through male gaze.
This sums up alot of stories perfectly, the male goes on a journey form bonds and enemies along the way . jus to have the woman be his “ birthing prize” at the end
You’ve just explained my gripe with kingdom hearts.
Indeed
@@Ash-hl2mr what happens in kingdom hearts?
Well said.
I feel like some people tend to ignore the fact that subtext is often intentional and can be explicit (allegory, symbolism etc. are established literary techniques), as when you point said subtext out to them, they say you're an insane person trying to further your agenda and how you are ruining media and society for everyone.
EXACTLY!!
And when we point out this things and say that authors queerbaited us into believing that they were going to end up together because of the OBVIOUS metaphors, they say that we are insane and ruining precious “male friendships” in media…
@@mrsgansey3521 if because you people are desperate and feel entlyte to being pander to
@@geardestroy well considering that we pay for the services that give us the content that we watch we are in fact entitled to the gays in media, not that we get them anyway
I also see people saying that anything not spelled out explicitly doesn't exist (so pointing out subtext doesn't mean anything to them lmao). As if the only way to show romance is to have the characters say "I love you" while making out.
@@tammymac6067 And even after that there'll still be people denying they are gay.
I've spent enough time in anime-adjacent communities to have heard every one of those "no homo" arguments multiple times, with the "toxic masculinity" one being the most insulting IMO. I've actually even made that same point about the inherent tolerance of m/f friendships being interpreted as sexual versus the immediate backlash to interpreting same-gender relationships as such, calling on my own lived experience as a gay man hanging out with women, to try to break through to these people but to no avail. This video was brilliantly written and offered very good insight on this topic!
👍
Heteronormativity at its finest. I grew tired of trying to rationally explain it, now I just pretend I’m distracted and don’t hear what they’re saying.
"Kaworu is not gay" comes to mind. People making up the wildest """arguments""" to deny a character that literally says he loves the male protagonist and even kisses him but then come with pure hypocrisy by saying this male and female characters like each other after they blush once.
@@trueloveskiss5343 While I won't deny that toxic gay shippers don't exist, toxic shippers exist even in m/f ships, and when it comes to how severe they can be, they're pretty much equal
The anime community has a big homophpbia problem
if an actor cant differentiate themselves from their fictional character then they are a bad actor, your character isnt you so don put your own views and belifes into your character, i play straight characters all the time and i dont complain
Agreed
Do you dare to insult Anthony Mckey? He is more sucessful than you could ever hope to be
@@geardestroy Is this satire
This is why fandoms really really need to distance themselves from creators of the medium. This guy should have acted the role, collected his check, did some on contract PR and go back to living his life. Why this guy doing Fangirl Press Releases? Smh
I can't talk about his intentions but he has said problematic things in the past, learned from them, and corrected himself. However, this take does seem riled with homophobia when you consider the fact that he requested a love subplot with black widow. It's just, so you are allowed to see people as more than just friends, and advocate for a romantic relationship for them but not the fans :
I agree with you and have an additional take. Most of gay read male friendships are badly written. Friends generally don't get jealous when their friends get a significant other. They don't harbor a lot of hidden anger for each other for no reason. There's generally little unresolved tension between them. When all these things happen, it looks romantic, it's too possessive.
theres a lot of tension in real life bud. men just tend to suppress things as much as they can and these things are never addressed.
Eh they can u don’t have to be in love W ur best friend to be jealous their partner is taking away time from u,, that’s just like friendship sometimes especially if they’re ur bff
From experience, jealousy over a friend isn’t inherently romantic. But I will say that in media, its all about how its framed and how its played out.
There are actually articles to help best friends deal with your best friend getting a partner, is not at all uncommon! As someone said it really depends by the framing
It makes me sad that the people who need to see this either won't, or just won't listen
Most of the people who do need to get educated. Don't seek it out. They don't watch media that doesn't relate to them... And that's always the problem. 😩
In a way, I kinda appreciate it. This channel is one of the few safe havens for the gays on TH-cam imo
You don't see anyone commenting on straight ship videos this shit.
"it's like girls and guys can't be intimate friends without being labeled a couple and it's so unfaaaair ù.ú "
Shit, you don't even see this with two women/girls. Only two men/boys.
Well thats because its unrealistic. The chances for that working out are really really slim. Trust me I know from experience.
@@sirweebs2914 that's just you bruh. I have many close male friends and no I'm not even remotely attracted to them. A lot of straight men and women are JUST friends but idk if you're ready for that conversation yet.
@@sakshikhatavkar3562 I call bullshit. In my experience women and men cant be true friends. It can work sure but I never heared or saw a friendship between a woman and a man that worked out in the end, one always had feelings for the other.
@@sirweebs2914 Well I call THAT bullshit. Maybe it's the toxic hetereonormativity that we've all grown up in but trust me, purely platonic relationships between straight men and women exist, just like how friendships between gay men do. Just because your experience says otherwise doesn't mean the general census is that. I mean jeez it's like saying you're attracted to someone solely because they're your preferred gender/have the same sexual orientation. There are many other factors that come into play, surely I don't have to explain that to you??
Ironically, the older white actor Mark Hamill is much more mature and open minded than Mackey pertaining their respective character’s interpretation of sexuality. This is evident when Mark was asked about Luke Skywalker being gay in a Cambridge (or Oxford) interview. He responded by saying that “the story is meant to be interpreted by the people and its okay to understand it one way over the other,” and that, “it’s okay to think of Luke as gay or straight because there’s nothing wrong being any of those.” This is also during the height of The Force Awakens (or the sequel) on whether Finn and Poe will be depicted as being in a explicit homosexual relationship.
Always loved Mark Hamill, great job as Joker and Luke Skywalker. He just shot up 50 ranks in my head
Except that Mackie said he's happy to let fandom do what it wants, and never actually spoke out against the ship, and has talked at length about the issues in the black community regarding both portrayals of masculinity and portrayals of black queer men... but yeah no, pretending like he's close minded and ignoring the actual things he's said for YEARS about queer characters is much easier than acknowledging that it's not Mackie's job to queerbait on behalf of Marvel when THEY don't put in the actual representation.
But I'm sure you educated yourself on his actual stance before making this comment. Right?
he gets it.
@@Inkcharm no one is saying he's close minded, we're just saying his frustration is directed at the wrong people
@@bedtimerat because you are assuming his frustration is directed at fans not at various societal factors and the Hollywood industry. He never said anything bad about fandom shipping. You just assume so even though the question asked no longer was about fandom but about movie depictions of male friendship
I’m curious if any of these people who claim “why can’t we have two guys/two girls as close friends?” can list any instances or as many instances where they think “why can’t we have two guys/two girls be in a romantic relationship?”
I might be part the argument because i just don't like romanticism or shipping characters at all in fiction 😅
"But what about the guy/girl friendships?" - Not a particularly convincing argument.
2 gay guys can also be platonic friends… but they can also be gay 🤨
I don’t get why it’s so bad to be perceived as gay with the homies. If someone asks just be like “nah we aren’t together lmao” it’s not that hard
Yeah man, if people are clearly uncomfortable then we should just call them "HoMoPHoBes." Their feelings are surely not valid because of my moral superiority. Gtoh
ONG😭🙏
I want all the guys in the room to spend some time thinking really really hard about why the idea of possibly being or appearing gay should in any way affect their ability to be friends with other guys.
Right? If it affects you *that* severely, then maybe you need to do some introspection
I find it equally fascinating and hilarious that lesbian relationships are having the opposite "problem" because intimacy in female friendships is normalized so much; so when a lesbian couple hold hands, hugs, or other intimate acts, they're just "gals bein pals". (luckily, this is starting to change in fiction)
It's also quite interesting how male/female friendships in fiction are almost expected to become a romantic relationship at some point during the story, regardless of how much intimacy within their friendship is shown/told.
Great video, it gave me a lot to think about :D
People exaggerate things so much. They talk as if we the gays misinterpret all male friendships as gay when that's simply not true. No one watches New Girl or Friends thinking Nick/Schmidt and Chandler/Joey are gay for each other (even when they share physical intimacy like hugs or kisses or they share emotional moments). When we say a certain friendship may be interpreted as queer is because the authors purposely or accidentally add queer subtext and coding we've been interpreting for years. That type of queer analysis doesn't come out of nowhere like some people may think.
umm nice try sweet heart. The gays have literally claimed everyone in the Friends show to be gay. Especially that chandler is bi and that him and joey would be better then him and monica.
@@trueloveskiss5343 And by "the gays" I assume like 3 people who wrote an article about it in a website somewhere? If it's a twitter post, could it be that it's supposed to be a "hot take" or "unpopular opinion" one?
"There are dozens of us! Dozens!"
@@trueloveskiss5343 by that you mean a few straight girls who read bl and fetishize gay men? Yeah most of us queers don't ship the two
well I wouldn't say *no one*... there are some strange things lurking in the depths of youtube and tumblr. However, characters don't even have to speak for people to ship them. Just because some teenagers ship two characters doesn't mean anything. But when a ship becomes massively popular, it's probably worth conducting a thorough investigation of the textual evidence. Usually, if a huge number of people with all of their different biases and blind spots, notice something: then it's because there is something there. Of course, this is not perfect. People can be almost, but not quite, correct (for example, a lot of times you'll see people disregard a male character's very obvious love for a female character, because that male character also clearly loves another male character: which is both bi erasure, and not understanding how attraction works). Much of the time however, if a huge portion of the fandom thinks that two characters are gay: there is probably some truth in it.
@@trueloveskiss5343 I don't think you get it, and you're also literally doing the thing this video is criticizing.
Chandler and Joey *would* be a better, more healthy, relationship than Chandler and Monica. I haven't yet seen anyone claim that it's canonical, or that Chandler and Joey have any sort of romance in the actual show. Just that if they did, it would be better for both of them. AUs are allowed.
It baffles me how blatantly obvious it is that if someone assumes a guy and a girl are dating, no one gets offended and they just laugh it off. Now, when it comes to two guys, the gays™ are suddenly the biggest threat to healthy masculine friendships and displays of affection ?¿? maybe, just maybe, you could consider reacting the same way in both situations?
It baffles me that people still say 'blatantly obvious' without a hint of irony.
@@kateweatherwax6484I mean, I'd say I did pretty good considering this isn't a college essay and it's not even my first language.
god its so fucked up how when i become romantically, sexually, or otherwise 'involved' with another man, I can no longer have their friendship. kind of screwed up how that is forced to happen, huh?
It occurs to me that this is why the 'sassy gay best friend to the opposite sex' is probably such an over-utilized trope...
👍
Yeah I too hate when I become romantically involved with someone and our friendship immediately Thanos-snaps out of existence…
this is an interesting dive into overlapping subjects and behaviors. seriously an underrated creator here
*Alex:* Mackie, and people in his camp, generally believe there is a crisis going on, and it goes something like this-
*Ad:* Let's help people save with Liberty Mutual!
*Me:* Nice timing. 👌🤣
Mine was an add with a drag queen which made me laugh at the irony.
immediately after he talked about stereotypes i got an ad of a guy saying he doesnt fit the stereotypes (in a way that was clearly referencing being gay)
No hetero but I love you so much
Lol no hetero😂😂
No hetero lmao XD
the fact mackie is this defensive over the ship and the "exploitation of homosexuality" is so funny because. sam and bucky literally did couples therapy and then fell in a field together but if a cishet female/male pair was doing the same shit i just know that everyone would be fine with it
In what film did Steve and Bucky do couples therapy? I totally missed that.
@@cnashford2 it’s in the mini series “ the Falcon and the winter soldier “.
@@becky14 Ok, now I get it. In your initial comment, you meant Sam and Bucky rather than Steve and Bucky. My bad.
@@cnashford2 oh lmao thanks for pointing that out- i went ahead and fixed it
The part when you said that in F. Scott Fitzgerald uses homosexuality to signify a character's moral ambiguity was really interesting. I never thought about that while reading the book. The fact that authors of that time (and maybe even still) hint that a character might be lgbt to create a sense of unease that makes the reader question whether they're good or have evil intentions. That's literally a brilliant take on literature.
he actually has an entire video on that! I highly recommend it
Speculate if a fictional man and woman are dating and nobody bats an eye, speculate if two fictional men are dating and society goes wild.
The fact i read this in the guy who made this sound voice 💀
This is probably my favorite video so far. I love how you break down the argument that Anthony is making point by point and explore the soundness of each point in an intelligent and nuanced way, while also poking a bit of fun. Much love 💛
The fake old-timey voice is gold. Also, this is why I was on edge for all of Loki. A guy and a girl just can't be friends, apparently, and must get together by the end even if they're the same person
Fr i was do disappointed in the end
I was so unimpressed with that kiss in ep6. It was so unnecessary and sorta gross tbh
I hated that it made me feel ill when they got together
Thank you!!! I was starting to think I was the only one!
And after they bothered to say that Loki was bisexual as well. They might as well have not said anything.
I KNEW this was going to start with Anthony Mackie's weird podcast comment lmaooo
I swear every single time this channel uploads my day gets better
So what you're saying is a few centuries back you couldn't 'be' gay, you could just 'do' gay?
"Do gay, be crime" doesn't have the same ring to it
lol
well technically (and unfortunately) "doing gay" and "doing crime" were synonymous back then
@@puppieluver3697 yeah that's why I thought switching it to say "be crime" was funny!
late but this is so funny to me help
"Is there a crisis in your bedroom" idk why that made me laugh 😅
It shouldn't matter whether they're "just friends" or romantic. If you see it as romantic, cool; if you see it as platonic, cool. You shouldn't be afraid of your favorite characters being queer though. The point is to point out intimacy between two characters. Us gays are just frustrated more relationships aren't canonized, and then the straights complain that two people of the same gender can't "just be friends". I know there are plenty of straight shippers who are like "I want this guy and girl to get together in this show!" But people never ask "can't a guy and a girl just be FRIENDS anymore?" (I know there is also media criticism of the lack of platonic friendship shown on-screen between men and women but that's different than being reactive against some specific pairing)
Literally every investigative drama where there's the cop and then the other one, and the fact that I can think of so many and each and every one of them ends with the guy and the girl in a relationship is just bananas. And then there's the multiple guy duos that are always left as "they're really good friends"
If anything’s in crisis, it’s male-female friendships. Everybody assumes they’re dating and I’ve seen a decent amount of things on the internet with people stating that they would never be friends with the opposite gender and flat out that “male-female friendships don’t exist” (mainly from incels but still).
We all need to stop assuming people are dating in general. Either they will say they are dating directly or on social media, or we never find out. We don’t need to know about all the special relationships people have.
Right, I have close friendships with men and I’ve had people basically question why my husband lets me hang out with them one on one. Like first of all, ew, normalizing controlling jealous behavior is a whole other kind of messed up, and also I’m bisexual so like what I can’t have any friends at all?!?
Plus like there’s the whole thing of attraction being a weird thing. Like platonic attraction is a real thing, you can love someone deeply in a non romantic way, and there is a kind of potential romantic attraction too, like some of my friends I could have had romantic attraction to if we met when we were single, or if the age gap wasn’t as much or if just circumstances were just different, but that’s not the reality we live in and that’s fine, I’m happy with my romantic relationship and I’m happy with our friendship and the way it panned out. Friendship isn’t less than romantic relationships, just different.
Male friends can’t look at each other because their masculinity is so freaking fragile
Us gays just watch and laugh at them
All whileyou guys cry whenever you dont see yourself in a cartoon character 🤣🤣🤣
@@geardestroy It's interesting that with how much you seem to dislike queer people, you still use precious time of your day to click on this video and reply to all the comments. Thanks for helping out the algorithm, that's really nice of you :)
@@geardestroy lol was that supposed to be a jab? bc as far as ik, people can relate to characters regardless of who they are. seeing yall regurgitate "insults" is what is sad
@Knox2Don wdym “someone else’s story” is it some real persons 100 percent accurate real life?
@@geardestroy just like y’all cry when u see queer people in carton characters
Im actually happy that you mentioned queer readings of The Great Gatsby because my junior english teacher did actually mention the queer reading of it and we had a whole assignment about it! This was while I was closeted and before I came out, but I enjoyed the assignment nonetheless.
This is a Master's dregree project level of video essay, very well done!
Thank you for uploading this video, I'm literally writing an essay on this for my EPQ about gay erasure in history.
It literally gives me a broader understanding of what I'm writing about thanks so much!!
How could tought that so many people care more about what historic people interted in their butt than what they did in life, im sure those people want to be remember by what they layed rather than amy real contribution to humanity
@@geardestroy what
@@geardestroy what
@@geardestroy If you want to reduce their being gay down to their sex lives, that's on you. But, most people made being gay out to be unacceptable, low and punishable, which launched many years of trying to destroy those ideas. Those historical figures should also be known to have contributed great things to society despite having a part of their lives seen by people in general back then (and plenty now, whether or not they're masking it) as evil and disgusting; don't pretend you don't know the context.
Anyway, everything you've been posting under this video is just some lame generalization or complete nonsense.
@@geardestroy Say that to Oscar Wilde who was just doing fine writing shit then the straights tried to get on his personal life and put him in jail because of the gay novel he wrote and his homosexual behavior.
Thank you for covering this! "A close friendship between two men can't become romantic or men won't be able to get close to each other without worrying about being seen as gay!"
Oh, so that wasn't a problem before, like in the age of "pause" and "no homo?" Were you already being close with your friend no problem then suddenly one ship became canon and now everyone's calling you gay? 🙄 Suuure.
I do take some issue with the "close friends get romantically involved trope" if only because it usually means two people of not the same sex or two people of the same sexual orientation *must* get together if they're close, but that's a different story
I get the third paragraph part, but it's probably the fact that they could make that friendship into a relationship and it would make more sense than having a random heterosexual one pop up for the sake of heteronormativity but they refuse to do so that really pushes the need at least on my part for the friendship to actually go somewhere
@@guillemmartinez9958 In my mind, the idea that there needs to be a romantic relationship at *all* is sometimes exhausting. Yeah, making a hetero couple out of nowhere for the sake of heteronormitivity is annoying *cough* ending of Detective Pikachu *cough* especially when it takes away from a same sex friendship that seems to be heading in a romantic direction
But I'd love more emphasis on platonic love, on non-manogamy, on being single and happy by choice. Right now though, destigmatizing same sex romance (moreso than relationships) should be key but I don't want it to develop into the same "close friends must *always* get together." that happens with hetero relationships. However, we're far, far away from that becoming an issue when fandoms are vilified for even suggesting romance between two men, so it's not worth worrying about rn and that progress shouldn't come at the expense of the LGBT community who want to see themselves represented. (Except Elsa. Elsa is gay, kepp Elsa single ❤)
@@aboutashow I whole-heartedly agree, even though I am a romantic and love to see romantic pairings. There are instances that it just isn't needed
Just one more thing I keep thinking about: imagine if those guys in "intimate friendships" we see on tv were that intimate with all of their bros (if they have more than one bro in the story, that is). Would we still ship them as much (maybe), or would we think "this is a character who has no problem being intimate with his bros, cool" (also maybe). Often an important aspect of shipping is the fact that the two characters treat each other different from the way they treat other people. So if they have the same, typical, non-intimate relationship with all of their bros except with this one dude, should we just assume they're just so special for each other they can only have this type of friendship with each other, they're different, they're just that much more comfortable with each other than everyone else, ... BUT IT'S PURELY PLATONIC? You see?
Lastly, what would be wrong with having a gay romantic relationship AND a bunch of bros you're very intimate with in a platonic way (you know, the way we see in some really cool queer shows)? Is the story really gonna be so convoluted if you have your main characters interact with more people than just each other? xp
I don’t see people saying this very often about male/female friendships...
That comment by Mackie is really bad. He's pretending to protect the 'purity of homosexuality' by being lowkey homophobic? I think I prefer direct homophobes over these benevolent ones. Mackie could be a really great guy but honestly he needs to get educated on these topics before speaking out about it.
Also: if the straights are afraid to be seen as gay, they have to ask themselves who they are afraid of seeing them this way.
High key homophobic IMO, and yeah the only people who care if you’re gay is homophobic people smh
literally please go watch and/or read his other interviews where he speaks about the struggles of the black community regarding toxic masculinity, and the importance of representing the black queer community, before you start slinging the shade as if this man hasn't publically admitted that he was spoonfed homophobia since his childhood and had to work to unlearn a lot of it. What you're saying he said isn't what he actually said, and one soundbite doesn't suddenly change everything else he's spoken on about with regards to this topic. google is free btw.
@@Inkcharm this "google it" mentally is just..not it. look, people have the right to be mad about it. even if he acknowledged what he said in the interview and apologized for it, doesnt mean everyone has to accept his apology nor pity him bc of his past, specially since plenty of queer poc were also spoonfed heteronormativity and homophobia throughout their lives. lgbt people KNOW what that is like. him being a person of influence who is aware of these issues is great tho, its good hes trying to make a change by openly talking about it. this fact, however, shouldnt excuse him from making ignorant statements, and if he is so prone to being and doing better, then he and those who support him should count this as a learning opportunity.
@@Inkcharm You're right, but we were all spoon fed those things growing up. And in some communities they're more harshly taught than others. And even if reading multiple interviews and comments from 1 actor about a topic might make him seem more nuanced, that's not how it works. Because this comment of his is what people read and respond to.
And him overcoming struggles as a black man doesn't mean he's enlightened about other topics automatically. And because he seems like a good guy I just hope he can learn from other people and get a better idea about social issues he's not personally involved with but can speak about better as a role model in the future.
Another thing. It isn't even Mackie's fault. It's Disney's. They're making all the decisions here. And comments like Mackie's are great for them because then everyone is focused on that and they can hide behind that corporate logo and change nothing.
So personally I'd rather actors say nothing about these things they don't know anything about or have no say in whatsoever. Because frankly they're probably under very strict NDAs and can't comment on behind the scenes decisions anyway. So we don't need any vague halfhearted words that end up doing more harm than intended.
@@suikim9194 That's the thing though - he TRIED saying nothing. He said he's happy to let fandom do its thing, he smiled when romantic Sambucky was mentioned, and the interviewer kept pushing - and maneuvered him into that corner. This is a trend by the way - I've seen SO many interviews where you can tell white interviewers are trying to push Mackie into a corner, are trying to bait soundbites out of him. It very, very rarely works. It only worked here because the interviewer then proceeded to post select soundbites of the whole interview and frame it in a different setup, which made Mackie look worse than if we'd all just listened to the whole interview including the extremely leading questions he was asked. 'cause then I bet you anything ,fandom would have rolled its eyes and said "that was poorly phrased" and moved on largely. But the interviewer successfully weaponized queer fandom against a black man, and now here we are - with Mackie getting heat he does *not* deserve and fans who feel invalidated even though that's not what he did.
He agrees btw - I remember there's an interview where he said that he often feels like as a straight man he has no right to comment on issues pertaining to the queer community bc he's not part of it - and I imagine also bc he knows the bigotry he *had* to overcome and fight against in himself actively means he doesn't exactly have the respectful vocabulary and broad view that others have.
The fact at the end of the day is this though: Mackie doesn't care if people ship Sambucky - he literally said he's largely unaware of fandom and he's happy to let them do what they want to do. But that also means he's not gonna stray into queerbaiting, which is harmful and exploitative. Mackie isn't here for fake representation like that (comparable to how he said if Marvel is only using black crew in their black movies but is not using black crew in their largely white movies, that's also fake representation and racist in its own way - I'm telling you, that man understands the nuance.) He over corrected and phrased it poorly - but can you honestly say that he doesn't have a point? Because he's not saying there shouldn't be more queer rep. He's not saying fandom isn't allowed to ship. But he's not gonna queerbait on behalf of Marvel - and he's not gonna pretend like there's something there when it's not on paper, just to instill a hope that he can't guarantee is warranted. And believe me, I'm also not HAPPY with how he phrased it as a queer fan myself - but I have the critical thinking necessary to see that end of the day, him not playing that kinda will they won't they game is MUCH better than putting fans on the hook before Marvel commits to anything concrete. And I'm not gonna let my part of queer fandom be used by a shitty Variety interviewer with a history of whipping fans into a rage that is exclusively, always, targeted at black men for out of context statements that were at worst phrased clumsily but are not actually half as harmful as people understandably initially feel they are.
I’m a masc gay man, and most of my friends are straight guys. My relationship with them is strictly plutonic. And yes, I’ve had crushes on my straight friends over the years, but I never peruse them because:
a. they’re straight, so they would never consent.
b. Any weird non-reciprocated romantic tension would make things with them awkward at best, and could end our friendship at worst.
Yeah...
Had a crush on 3 of my closest friends
1st straight
2nd straight
3rd straight and homophobic
I’m a masculine bisexual man and I wish I was in your position. Heterosexual men have discriminated against me all my life.
If ur friendships end just like that they ain't your bros
"but why can't guys just be bros without fear???" homophobia. how hard is it for these people to understand? people shouldn't be SCARED to be mistaken as gay.
Ikr i hug and kiss my friends and i am not gay for them *i am gay for other guys tho*
But yeah socity is just...ugh
Long story, but let's get into it: When I was 21 I met this guy outside of the local community college that we both attended. We were both smoking a cigarette and found that we both enjoyed playing MTG . Anyway, we exchanged numbers and started meeting up before classes for games of Magic. Awesome. One day we were supposed to meet for coffee and a (super anticipated, much trashtalked) rematch of MTG. He didn't show. I called. He didn't answer. Next Monday at school, He wasn't out in our usual spot smoking, but I did see him all the way on the other end of the building (literally behind a pillar). I figured he was just being weird so I left him alone. He took pains to avoid me and never talked to me again. It happens. ANyway, pt 2. Six months later I met a dude that I worked with. Again, discussion of MTG, got together once to play. Right before our next scheduled hang out, I called cause I couldn't remember where we were supposed to meet. DUde answered, yelled at me, told me he's not "f*cking gay" and how [first guy name] had told him all about me and how I should stay away from him. Anyway, point of the story is that two guys were creeped out because apparently I was too gay while playing magic the gathering. Like, two guys can definitely be platonic friends... but alot of times dudes think that guys being friends is inherently gay. I don't understand any of it.
Talk about toxic masculinity
I have a friend that calls me gay if we are less than 5 meters away from each other
I'm so sorry for existing I guess... if heterosexual male friendships are so fragile that they're under threat simply because gay people exist, maybe get better friends or change your behaviour... possibly both...
Exactly my opinion aswell.
I once had a best friend and we were like brothers I dont usually like beeing close to someone physically, a handshake will do just fine, but him I always used to embrace. We would laugh, drink, sing and make music together no matter what people called us.
Now Ive got a friend Im spending most my time with when Im outside we are completely alike often times even think the exact same we also act like we are gay sometimes to make fun of people calling us gay.
So yea Id say just live your life and dont care what others think.
@@sirweebs2914 exactly, like, if you're afraid of being called gay for being close friends with someone, just don't... no one will benefit from you distancing yourself from your friends, it's actually the worst thing you can do... this fear is a part of the reason why cishet men have such bad mental health, men usually don't have strong friend groups...
I'm not blaming men for feeling like that, society shames men for having strong friendships with other men and I know what shame does to your mind, but sometimes you need to take responsibility for your own feelings... poor people can't liberate themselves from poorness, statistically speaking it's extremely unlikely, the global economic system is stacked against them, but men can liberate themselves from shame, it's hard work, but it can be done...
@@walterl322 if you ask me people nowadays care way too much about what others think about them. I think social media did this as I can still remember the time when it wasn't as bad as it is now. I'm only 26 but when I was 10 I was climbing trees or hanging out with friends playing video games now the 10 year olds in my town only care about how cool they are, how many friends they have or how many designer clothes they wear it's honestly sickening how everything became so superficial. People really did become shallow its crazy to me how almost nobody can enjoy anything without taking pictures for example it's like nobody really lives in the moment anymore and it sure seems like everything they do they aren't doing for themselfs looks like they are only living to get validation.
@@sirweebs2914 I mean, caring about how we look is just a part of being an adult human, it's just a natural drive, but it can be exploited...
technology definitely has a negative impact on how we view ourselves because we're comparing ourselves to idealised images of others, but I don't think that technology is fully at fault here, technology isn't inherently good or bad, it's just a tool, but in the wrong hands it can be exploited... instagram exists not to serve humanity, but to generate profit, the more time you spend on social media, the more advertisements you see, which means more money for facebook... so there's an incentive to make it as addictive as possible, no matter how damaging it gets for the consumer and the more you look around, the more you start to notice that this is simply how the economy works, from social media to beauty products and even to food and housing...
oh lord, I always have to relate every problem to capitalism, but what can you do when the economic system you live under influences every aspect of your life...
This is masterfully written and performed. Great work
This is a flawless takedown of a thinly-veiled homophobic argument! Stay bless
@Revoboot sounds like you're the one who needs to cope, bud...
@GorboDonsz your most recent comment is “SOOOOOOOYYY” so yeah that about tells me everything I need to know about you and your beliefs. Touch grass you terminally online chud.
@@LoathsomeLucifer lmao not him deleting his channel over this 💀💀😭
When I started high school, all my male friendships vanished. I was a girl and only my best friend was the same gender. I tried to speak to some, but they avoided me. I managed to talk to one who wasn't part of our middle school group, and his male friends started mocking him, saying "Stop flirting!" and he left. I don't know about male friendship, but male-female friendship is something I lost and it really hurt. If it weren't for my best friend, I would have been completely alone.
In Highschool English reading *old novels* we would always have a moment when *two masculine men* have a moment and share some emotions and then some dude in the back of the room would go "What are they? Gay?!" The fear of being "perceived" as a gay has changed friendships and made them more distant.
straight frat bros give off the most homophobic homosexual vibes
Literally
I absolutely love this video, I think it's your best one yet. Maybe because I am passionate about this specific topic. You've articulated perfectly many of the things I have always tried to explain (in a less successful manner) to people who keep complaining about gays destroying platonic frienships. It frustrates me that even some queer people buy this argument
also those dude-bros are the kind kind of people to deny that anything gay is happening because "he likes this girl". yeah. we aren't saying that he doesn't like that girl. we're saying that he may also like this guy. its those kind of people that tend to completely dismiss the fact that people can like multiple genders.
I've been in the TBHK fandom and I see these people all the time
"are you and your friends gay?"
"oh no, we're just friends"
is such a simple conversation, but straight guys prefer to be more like "HOW DO YOU THINK ME AND MY FRIENDS ARE GAY?! OH, THIS WORLD IS TURNING EVERYONE GAY!😡"
someone doesn’t like normal people
In my humble opinion, one of the biggest challenges for modern, wester society in way to bigger inclusivity will learning how to look at things, subjects and other people beyond our own perspective. Technically, we understand that discimination is something bad (in general only, which is unfortunate), but have a problem to listen to experiences other than ours. Like, it is great that you do not hate minorities, but it does not mean their problems are solved or not valid. And what Mackie said is almost book example of that way of thinking. He sees his side of the story, the other one is ignored.
Very well said
might i say you are looking exquisite today with that shirt and lighting, have a good day king
bruh i want to go back to when romantic friendships existed 😭😭 it’s exactly what i need, just chilling with people without having to think if u want to be in a relationship with then or not because being in a relationship is the only way to get this kind of intimacy
Glad you made this! The subconscious homophobia behind the "men can't be platonically intimate anymore" thing is palpable. If you and your friends want to be more intimate and the only thing holding you back is fear of looking gay, idk what to tell ya fam.
Your videos really help. Because of some ppl in my life I had thought I was actually making up fictional character relationships and it’s really bad. That was until my mom and I watching shows while my mind blasting “SHIT THIS IS GAY”, feeling bad about it, then hear my mom (who still don’t know the difference between queer baiting and just plain gay) say in her eating voice: “well this is gay.”
I really don’t ship out loud, sure I spend weeks to make a ship animatic or hours on a ship fan art, but usually I only use the tag for the ship or like most of the time not posting at all spite the time and effort. I didn’t really knew the whole “you have to be a boi and girl to fall in love” idea until my preschool teacher told me I will get AIDS for wanting to marry my best friend and that was a actual problem :/(been the “fuck gender roles I want my room blue” kid since four, I used to be so fucking dumb wow). But it’s kind of frustrating when my mum don’t really get what I’m saying and kind of nice to find my own little community
(about the messy language, I just suck at being human sorry)
How about stop caring if people think you're gay or not. To fear being labelled as gay has the undertones of fearing emasculation, which not only means you think queer men are not really men, but also that you think being a man is somehow the better than being a 'non-man'
I was going to postulate that this problem also has to do with the fact that men are so sexualized, and not in the same way as females. In the sexual discourse, women are seen as mere objects, some authors even stated that women had no sex-drive, because society was incapable of conceiving female libido... And maybe, that's why so many lesbian couples are labelled as "just gal pals", because women "look sexy, but are not sexually active."
On the other hand, men are always depicted as always willing to have sex with no reserves. If a woman make advances to a man, he has to respond no to be perceived as "gay", because they are always expected to want sex.
Think about this, we as a society consider that men should not be close to kids in any context. Otherwise, the kids could be SA by said man.
Society cannot think about men in relationships in a non-sexual way.
PS: ¡Saludos de una venezolana en el exterior! Sigue creando contenido inteligente, lo apreciamos muchísimo.
this video is so important!! Thank you for covering modern understandings of sexuality and friendship, I didn’t really know that much about how sexuality became “identity” but im definitely gna research it now
Star Wars showed me the complaints are disingenuous. The straights said "why can't Finn and Poe just be friends?" & completely ignored that the emotional climax of the previous trilogy was between Anakin and Obi-Wan (2 platonic male friends)
My dad is always saying "why do you need so many boxes, why do you draw more lines" and for me, it comes down to, the boxes help us feel safe and seen. Getting rid of the boxes doesn't get rid of the people. But it does get rid of the security. There is a comfort in being able to say "I am a lesbian", "I am asexual", "I am nonbinary". It gives me, personally, a sense of personal understanding. It is one less question I have about myself. And if we didn't have those labels, yes, homophobes couldn't use them to identify us, but we also couldn't use them to identify each other. If we didn't have queer people, we wouldn't have queer spaces, spaces where it is safe for us to be ourselves. We wouldn't have queer representation, showing younger generations it is okay to be in a different box. Humans fear unidentified things, thus we gave ourselves identities. That doesn't get rid of the fear, but it does lessen it, and it gives a community, a support system. That's the way I see it.
And after all this time "two bros chilling in a hot tub, five feet apart 'cus they're not gay" is still relevant. Also just the fact that my abuela allowed my female friends in my room and not the males... Same vibes
And please for gods sake dont seriously ship real people. please being queer has nothing to do ith it, thats universal. And please dont blame "the gay" for that
An with spock an kirk, the term the are describes is canonically friends/brothers/lovers they canonically are aviable gay.
Th'y'la.
You are absolutely right, I m gonna admit I once did that when I was a child, I kind of regret, I can just tell you, that most are probably children doing that
the truth is people will almost never assume you're gay unless they're also gay. And even then all you gotta do is correct them if it bothers you. Gay people get assumed straight all the time, it's not that deep.
How about the friendship between Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson that was ruined by fangirls shipping them.
If theres any crisis of friendship in media its between men and women tbh
What really gets me about this type of criticism is the unsaid implication that if a male relationship turned out to be gay it can no longer be an example of healthy masculinity.
Why do some men think that?
Gayness and masculinity are not two opposing forces that cancel each other out. Gay men are, in fact, men and they shouldn’t be disqualified from being positive male role models.
Just wanted to say that the lighting at 25:52 is so aesthetically pleasing because with your shirt it creates the bi colours and with the bi flag in the background it's just... Haah, so nice to look at, hell ye. Also i really love this video and that you're doing such a great job at explaining this to people who might come from a point of view like mackie (meaning really not conciously homophobic and hateful but unconciously so because of the world we all grew up in basically) without making them feel stupid or attacked. Like, you're phrasing all these things in such an elegant way, it's so nice and satisfying to listen to you talking about things like this for which i myself for instance couldn't find the perfect words for :)
I hate it when like my mom or something says “your to young to be gay” like bro? What? Do you think I’ll automatically be straight when I’m 17 but then become gay at 18????
Yeah that stuff is stupid like you wouldn't mind if I had a bf but when I mentioned I like girls, suddenly it's an issue. 🤨
11:53 Also it is funny how straight people view sex. They act like it "just happens". It doesn't. Both parties have to actively consent to making that happen.
I have extremely emotionally deep relationships with my female friends. Have I ever even madeout with one of them? No. Why? Because Im not interested in that.
If your emotionally deep male friendships are turning sexual... well then you are probably a little bisexual (which is completely fine).
Haven't finished the video yet, but I think the issue is the perception that some straight (or even some straight-passing) people have that being gay or being called gay is inherently a bad thing. If men are afraid to have platonic intimate relationships because they don't want to be seen as gay, then they need to examine what's wrong with being gay. If the answer they come up with is (hopefully) "nothing," then they probably don't have anything to worry about. I think sexism ties into it as well- there's a homophobic stereotype that being gay equals being feminine, so these men don't want to be seen as gay, and therefore feminine. In that case, it's also good to examine what's wrong with femininity, in which case the answer should be, once again, "nothing."
Edit: Looks like I was spot-on! Hell yeah!
I agree wholeheartedly, it was just the lying, directly and indirectly, about the intentions of creators, on the part of certain others that bugged me.
Quick somebody sent this to Anthony Mackie
For me personally, there are clear differences of "friends" kissing/hugging/staring at each other in "romantic/sensual" to "friends" kissing/hugging/staring at each other in a "platonic" sense. Be it fiction or in real life, body language and voice delivery are signs people cannot dismiss.
Friends that are entirely platonic will have certain reactions, regardless of gender. If my entirely platonic best friend were to stare at me, I'd probably notice and react in an entirely platonic way: laugh while noting it, or stare back in a competitive sense. They would probably laugh back, no hesitance of half-heartedness to be noted within it at any time.
But "friends" who aren't entirely platonic will probably not react the same way (especially in the realm of fiction).
If both sides reciprocate, then they won't even notice or stop staring at each other. If one side notes it (even if they laugh), the other won't *always* mean it when they react in a platonic sense. Chances are they'd be flustered, surprised, non-reactive or even have that moment of hesitance to prepare the cover up of whatever romantic feelings they might feel.
This applies to fiction best. Using these signs in real life isn't meant to be always accurate or respectful. People have layers: they may have other reasons to do it that you can't see, unlike in fiction. Worry, anxiousness, curiosity, confusion, etc. However, denying these types of signs in fiction (or IRL) shouldn't be done with laced homophobia or ignorance.
If you're going to go out of your way to deny the reasons behind these signs, then have proper points in plot to back it up. If you're going to deny the *existence* of these signs, then you're going to have a heck ton of work to do if people believe are going to believe you.
honestly you're so underrated it's unfair
Haven’t watched yet but the title and thumbnail alone are *chefs kiss*
i was waiting for you to make a whole video on this. you always explain everything so clearly. thank u for giving me clear and concise arguments for when this topic appears again in a family reunion lmao
“Mackie and people in his camp generally believe there is a crisis going on, and it generally goes something like this-“ **ad**
Honestly I am so glad I found this channel, it's nice to see that I can relate to a group of people and also learn a few things too! Thanks for making videos.
this is the video I've been waiting for
This is SO annoying when people say this shit. I watch the Fox show "9-1-1" and a big ship on that show is Buck and Eddie. The writers have used tons of romance tropes for them, they are literally raising a child together, and it looks they're may be going canon this season (I'm hoping!). But I've heard people say "Omg, why can't men just be friends anymore! Wouldn't it be awesome if two friends could just raise a child together and it NOT be romantic?" Yes, they can. Bobby and Michael in the show are two friends who literally raise children together (Bobby married Michael's ex-wife and they all raise their two kids). But Bobby and Michael aren't brought up as an example of platonic friends raising kids together, because that isn't what this is really about. It's homophobia dressed up and presenting itself as "We need more platonic friendships on screen!" More than MLM rep or WLW rep? I'm sorry, but no. There's more than enough platonic relationship rep.
Another thing from an ace/aro angle is that it's hard to portray platonic relationship without the audience starting ships. Heard of fanfic?
If sexpectation is not the killer of friendship in media, it definitely help carry the corpse.
and the fact that girls can have much more affectionate friendships… like if two men were like that everyone would be calling them gay (which isn’t even a bad thing) but when it’s two women they don’t see it like that bc a lot of straights don’t view wlw relationships as real or valid relationships (like how straight girls will kiss for guys 😐). not to say u can’t be affectionate with ur friends, i am and i think male friendships should be able to show affection like that too. sorry if this was worded weirdly 💀
I'm so in love with your way of thinking seriously, everytime I see one of your videos I'm in my bed talking to the screen like: "I KNOW, RIGHT?!"
I'm sure i've said this many times before, but your videos never cease to amaze me. The careful thought, planning, and articulation that goes into these scripts (and editing!) are just out of this world. I look forward to every video!