As Toby Hadoke very aptly put it 'if everybody else involved in a production was dead, and Donald Tosh could claim he had done something, he claimed he had done it'
As . Australian free to air bbc dedicsted channel Abctv .. played it about every 3 years .. 1969. 1974 .. 1980 .1985 was last time i saw it . I dont remember other actors . I just remember the toy puzzle . & william hartnells reaction .. as he walked away .. i thought ah glad i wont have to talk about that episode ever . Lol . Its one of those episodes we forget easy ,, 1985 sylvester mcCoy was doing pantomime theatre shows in austraia ,, so we had drwho set in australia & new zealand ,, right at the time that both Lord of the Rings & Planet of the apes scene location scouts were scanning for more post ~hollywood ~ unusual film locations
@@jayjlevans2000 yes ,, australia played all episodes daily from 1973 anniversary ,, 1983 ..oh 5 days a week, during march 30~ to october ~ 22 april.. yes ,, celestial toymaker june ,,
@@acewickhamyoshi8330If that’s the case then why are three of its episodes STILL MISSING? Would’ve thought ABC would’ve sent their copies back by now…🧐
My Aunt was good friends with Terry Nation. Only found out a few months ago when she was talking about a mutual friend that lived on the Isle of Wight and mentioned him. I asked if he was a writer, and she calmly said ‘oh yes, he invented the Daleks’ as if it was nothing.
Look, I know we're all here for Daleks, but it is always an immense pleasure to see you guys branch out into other subject matters. Jack the Ripper, The Wheel in Space, and now the Celestial Toymaker. You bring a much-needed fact-based (with actual, proper documentation!) approach to your videos that always makes the audience walk away feeling the better for having learned all that you have. The fact that it's presented in an entertaining way only further proves the mastery of your craft. Can't wait to see what's next!
Thing is, as you retell things that happened to you years ago- even decades ago - they become more and more stories and less historically accurate-you just have to listen to successive retellings of the same events down the years by Jon Pertwee or Terrance Dicks to see how aspects “slip” somewhat to make the stories “better”. And who among us doesn’t tweak an anecdote to make ourselves more the hero - or indeed antihero - of a funny story? People’s memories are not the best foundation for history-documents and evidence are.
who among us remembers that the 6th Doctor almost said his name out loud? While walking on Ravolox (when we see it back from the trial) he says to Perri something akin to :"I could settle down and live my life here and write my memoirs. The memoirs of Doctor..." AND there Perri interrupts him. In his post-regeneration hubris the 6th almost told us his name!!
George and Margaret were basically a "meme" before that word got turned into a type of picture joke. And thank you for this episode, stepping out of the Dalek venue for a while. And thank you for the new word "materteral" which I didn't know either.
Incredible work, seriously! Thrown whole new light on my favourite story. I'm especially pleased to now understand why Dodo was written as thick as bricks. And Graeme Allan's score is very punctilious indeed. I'm recommending this video to friends & family.
Good stuff. On the idea that DODO is conceived to be typed over ANNE, there are a couple of occasions in Bell of Doom’s script where this has happened, and one where it’s failed to. Take a look! J
Brilliant detailed, fascinating work Sir ! I may be able to add to it... I used to work at the BBC,TV centre initially, but in the late 80s I worked at BBC Enterprises at Woodland. I was a Video Tape engineer, but by that time the job description had changed to 'Operator'. This irritated all of us as we most certainly needed engineering knowledge to make the Quadruplex VT machines work. As a long time Dr Who fan, my father and latterly I myself actually working on the show, and once it had been shelved - whatever - I wanted it back. The best I could do was to attempt to recondition episodes that were not acceptable for sale due to the masters having been wiped. So... a friend, Keith Hunter managed to get colour 525 copies of Terror of the Autons via Ian Levine. In the down time at BBC Ents I got them converted to 625. Keith and I wondered if there was any chance of adding the colour from the multi-gen, twice converted ex US copies to the monochrome Film Recording copies the BBC still had. The short story was - that indeed it was possible, but only just. And now the relevant bit. Somehow or another, I really can't recall, a chap called Peter Lydiard White watched me do the experiments. He was utterly delighted by the results, crude as they were. We chatted a lot as I fiddled with settings and such, and he said he had been the PA on Toymaker. I think he may have called it Toy Master, I certainly did for years. He proudly told me that he had come up with the Trilogic game ! I note the image of the script names a N. Lydiard White as the P.A. I presume this was him. He said he was called 'Snowy white' at the time. I hoped he would help get funding for the reccolorisation process, but I heard that he had a non fatal heart attack shortly after I saw him. I have seen no evidence he had anything to do with Toymaker until I saw the script page in this video. Well, I think it's interesting :-)
Yes, that's the same Snowy. Toymaker was his second story, he'd already done The Space Museum, and went on to do The War Machines, The Tomb of the Cybermen, The Ice Warriors and The Space Pirates.
One small but fun fact is that Clara (the clown that is, not the Impossible Girl) actually makes a very brief camio in one of the SJA stories (I think that it was the one with the killer clown, I forget the name of the story as I'm more of a fan of the Classic Series) In the shape of a photo found online while Sarah is looking for information about clowns. This gives us the hint that there would have indeed been an actual clown, named Clara, who would have played against the Toymaker ( maybe alongside another one named Joey) and lost, thus she would have become one of the Toymakers playthings. Also one does have to also remember that Cyril would most likely have once been a fat English, (maybe from a Public School) who would have been lured into playing a game with the Toymaker in return for food, and lost. Wow that's a bit close for comfort....
I've often wondered if in the Deadly Assasin, when the Doctor is on the cliff edge and wipes the sand off the mirror, if that (only slightly different looking) laughing clown was a nod to the Toymaker episode? Only because that story has a few nods like the Kaled and his horse on the battlefield, etc.
You could also say that the Toymaker used Cyril in much the same way that young boys at the time would play with their Action Man figures or young girls would play with their Barbies in that he would change his outfits in order for him to have different 'roles' or 'play patterns' as they were figures that one was able to change their clothing and hwve them as more or less your own custom toys. That is why Action Man was not only marketed as army based toyline but also as a policeman a fireman and a footballer, among others....
@DVB0 True, but in the USA their was GI Joe, and in any case children do often use the same exact toys in different play patterns as they see fit. The Toymaker would have been no different...
One of the things that helped Action Man's longevity in Britain was the name. In America GI Joe tied the toy to the war Vietnam then Korea which were becoming unpopular in the States. In Britain Action Man extended into other character types. Part of my MSc research included men's recollections of playing Action Man. Some used the black jumper and other clothes to genre-shift the toy, turning him into a cool spy such as Ilya Kuryakin The Man from UNCLE
@@SportyMabamba Yeah, a mate up the road had loads of army based Action Men and Jeeps and maybe a tank! I had the arctic explorer and scuba diver, my brother had the astronaut and capsule!
This was fascinating! I knew The Celestial Toymaker had gone through script changes but I had no idea the extent of it or the changing of hands throughout. I didn’t feel at all like I was watching this for an hour, I could’ve happily sat here for double the runtime lol. Amazing detective work!
An hour-long special project taking a "deep dive" into the subject of 'who wrote what', and it's still more interesting than watching the actual programme was! Very rewarding to see the great team at Dalek 63-88 branching out into this sort of research. They're diligent, thoughtful and they don't miss a trick. And the narration, as ever, is charmingly detached from its obsessive thesis, amiable and particular -- rather like listening to a mildly amused dose of valium.
Considering the interview with Tosh was from 1992, when he was in his late 50s, I think we can probably safely exclude dementia and general forgetfulness and assume he thought "Well, everyone else is dead (Gerry Davis died in 1991), I can embellish the story all I like." The most favourable interpretation is he thought making all this stuff up would have made more of an article than simply admitting he didn't play much of a role in the final draft. Less favourably, he resigned in support of producer John Wiles and perhaps felt no duty to be accurate about a period of his life underpinned by staff fall-outs, animosity towards Gerry Davis, and numerous scriptwriting problems (not just with The Celestial Toymaker). I'd love to hear a Big Finish version of the original Hayles script, but it's a fair bet any copy of it is long gone.
Would have been interesting had he been in the states and available when Star Trek TOS Season 2 hadn’t started production including the dispute between Leonard Nimoy and Gene Roddenberry.
One interesting aside in ‘Allo Allo’ a production still of the clown is used as a photo of Fanny, Edith played by Silvaria’s mother, as a young circus performer.
Gerry Davis’s foreword to the novelisation makes interesting reading. According to that he was dispatching his rewritten pages to the studio every three hours.
Fascinating! I think Dodo is one of the companions who was very poorly handled by the writers, and reusing scripts intended for a different character helps explain the inconsistent treatment.
Creating new companion characters and then wishing they hadn’t, or casting an actor and then finding the actor doesn’t want a long running role, or so many other problems. From Vicki’s departure to Victoria’s arrival, the producers really were all over the place for a couple of years , and sometimes it reallly shows
So, with context "George and Margaret" is actually a really funny contemporary joke. They are like Mrs Mainwaring or Cataloguer Prink :) In a strange, ironic way, not appearing in it at all is still funny LOL
There's no surviving paperwork to confirm or deny that it wasn't part of Wiles' intention (perhaps in the Tosh draft in December, when the rumblings about Hartnell's exit start). There's no indication from other scripts from around that period so I suspect it didn't get very far. By the time the story was made Hartnell had already been recontracted for the rest of the third season in any case.
I was struck by the similarities of the robot depicted in the Celestial Toymaker and BBC TV version of Marvin the Paranoid Android from the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I'm aware that Douglas Adams wrote Dr Who scripts and would have had access to Dr Who archives, but who designed Marvin? The Toymaker entrapped people in his playroom but offered them a chance of escape, it wasn't long afterwards that Patrick McGoohan dropped Dangerman and created the Prisoner TV series. McGoohan already knew about Inverlair Lodge a place where people who knew too much were held during the war, he wanted to add video surveillance, mind altering drugs and mind control to the mix. Did Patrick Mcgoohan see the Celestial Toymaker and use it for the inspiration of No 2, and Rover the robot (played by a weather balloon)?
Marvin was probably designed by a collaboration between HHGTTG production designer Andrew Howe-Davis and costume designer Dee Robson, perhaps with a dash of Douglas Adams - depending I suppose on whether our plastic pal who's fun to be with qualifies as a costume or a prop. I think the similarity between the two robots is largely a coincidence, both being essentially a traditional box on legs, and Marvin's radio incarnation is undescribed.
I don't think Donald Tosh is a "liar" of any kind. His interviews are always good. I suspect if you edit or rewrite every script, you might remember more of it as your work years later.
It's taken a bit to get round to this video, but what a corker! As a Canadian lass that wasn't even thought of when this serial was made, it's fascinating to see some of the veil pulled back. Excellent documentary!
Without meeting any of the participants, it's difficult to know who to believe. It's a confused and troubled story from what seems to have been a confused and troubled time. As Terrance Dicks said later about rewrites: 'It's not getting better - It's getting worse!'
Something tells me he’d hate Gene Roddenberry for doing exactly that behind the writers’ backs throughout Star Trek TOS. So many that it’s difficult to know what scripts he did rewrites on or who else did the script changes.
You have a wonderful historical effort on display here. As someone who has watched "Toymaker" (in recon form, haven't got the animation yet) I remember struggling a lot to make sense of the story's guest cast, in particular the fact that Cyril seemed to be the same person every time while the others weren't. Now, it all makes a lot more sense. Deeply fascinating to see how much of the accepted history of this story's production has turned out to be completely wrong.
So punctiliously researched that I actually wonder if the pics of the mysterious aunt and uncle were actually Brian Hayles’s aunt and uncle. Fanny Cradock’s appearance got a round of applauze. More of this sort of thing! Was Hartnell’s two week absence always part of the plan for this?
Fantastic video, I've been rewatching all of your prior episodes while waiting for this one, and am constantly amazed at your level of detailed research. I've seen a couple of other people understandably perturbed by the use of AI generated visuals, and I was wondering if in future you'd at least distinguish which photos are AI generated, and which are pre-existing. It might just be me being me, but the presence of un-noted AI generated visuals give a sort of... lingering doubt to surrounding images. While I appreciate that they may be useful for relaying a point, it probably doesn't help a documentary to have the audience unsure if what they're looking at is actually real!
Awesome! I realise normal people would be bored silly by this type of thing... But I was gripped! It didn't seem like 54 minutes... it flew by. (Oh I am just sad!)
Great research! I love these little sidesteps into other areas beyond the Daleks. Thank you for finally explaining George and Margaret! I've gone and found the film on TH-cam. It's amazing how much myth has been taken as fact over the years, especially with most of the paperwork still in the archives! And it's nice to see Brian Hayles get his proper recognition.
Most of the paperwork for the story doesn't exist (same with almost all of John Wiles' stories except for 'Master Plan' - and even then that's missing a big chunk of the production paperwork). What there is has been pieced together from what few random sources survive. Mostly by accident in other files.
I remember seeing the available episode years ago and honestly it was pretty disturbing. I'd still be curious to see the whole story although i don't think in the manner which they've animated it. I do rather like that bit about Hale basically asking his now boss, can I do this thing as a bit of a welcome gift
What an amazing video! Absolutely brilliant stuff, many thanks. I do have a question about the use of the 'three spaces' tells in the scripts -- you say that this differentiates between the original (Brian Hayles) script and the numerous later additions but I was under the impression that the finished camera and rehearsal scripts were typed up by BBC secretaries (not sure of proper job title so I'll keep secretary) and not by the original writers. My inference from your video is that the secretary who typed up Hayles' *original* scripts had this 3-space mannerism but that the later additions were by other secretaries that did not. Is this a reasonable reading of your video?
She was very vocal about disliking the scripts for Galaxy 4 (among others) and expressed her disapproval that she was being given less and less to do. Complained too often. So they wrote her out to start planning their own new companion(s).
Do you have any further information on the photograph of the man typing in the rain (shown at the 50 min and 12 second mark)? Is it the writer himself, or is it just a stock image? I'd love to know the story behind it.
I like every aspect of the animated realm of the Toymaker, just not the horrible character designs. I don't know why some people insist on those horribly designed faces. The environments 10/10
Also as it happens I have been inspired to listen to my CD of 'The Celestial Toymaker' the first three episodes via the CD (which is a vintage single release which has a home in between my DVD's of 'The Ark' and 'The Gunfighters') and the fourth one via my much loved copy of the 'Lost in Time' DVD (I'm yet to buy the Blray the cartoon of the entire story that is, for obvious reasons) thanks to this very documentary.
I find the idea that the play George and Margorot is in someway canon to Dr Who, with the reason that they never show up being that they were kidnapped by the Toymaker, to be very amusing
@@flyhylandas far as I can find there hasn't been any allusion to it or elaboration on 6388's official channels and it's just been suddenly introduced, so if you have any info I'd appreciate if you shared.
OOh, nice to see the fanzine I edited - 23-11-63 - is cited. The interview was arranged and conducted by Gary Hopkins. It was published over two issues.Sadly, Hayles died after the first issue was published. Not wishing to be disrespectful, we actually debated about publishing the second part ! I think it's great that people are now able to use documentation alongside recollections
Great work here! I see you’re getting some pushback from using AI imagery to help illustrate your point. For what it’s worth, I don’t think it’s an issue on something like this. And that’s from someone who is not really a fan of the AI surge we’re seeing lately. This is clearly a non-profit passion project, and you’re not replacing an artist, you’re merely incorporating visuals that wouldn’t be there at all otherwise.
I don't mean to be rude but the introduction of ai imagery is a bit muddling. Generally these videos appear to have used either genuinely contenporary, visually appropriate, or more visibly intentionally modified images, so it rather muddled the overall image of the, well, imagery. It also does not help that the effects applied on actual photos combined with generated images with strange artifacring someahat makes it difficult to tell what images are genuine and makes the production feel less legitimate...
That’s not how AI image generation works. That’s like saying if you go to a zoo, see a bunch of giraffes then go home and draw a picture of a giraffe based on what you saw that day, you’ve stolen the image of the giraffes.
"George & Margaret" sounds like the inspiration for an early episode of ALL IN THE FAMILY, where George Jefferson is invited to dinner. Archie is annoyed, he wanted to go to the ballgame. Archie & his guest argue about things like "What makes you think God isn't black?" At the end, the guest is revealed to really be HENRY Jefferson, George's brother. What happened to George, Archie asks. "Oh, he went to the BALLGAME."
Guys I LOVE your videos! ...Really interesting, amazing research and beautifully put together. I have a question: I have a childhood memory from maybe the early-mid 80s where a group of people are being attacked by Daleks in a room with a table and there is a small Dalek that is cornering some children. Did I completely dream this up or is there something that exists that I'm mis-remembering?? Very grateful for any clues.
Thank you for the kind comments. The only thing I can think of that you may be remembering is the Spike Milligan comedy sketch that takes place in a room with a table and has a small Dalek. Its not as you describe but similar.
@@Dalek6388 ahh yes I know the Spike sketch (put him in the curry...) I don't think it was that but thinking about it I could even have misinterpreted Revelation of the Daleks and the model shot of a hovering Dalek as being a mini-one?? Anyhow, look forward to more of your Who-based archeology :)
One thing I disliked about this episode was how it retconned the black pool episode. Like its pretty clear that it would've been made had the BBC not been trying to shut the show down & due to that I feel like that episode should've been referenced. The Meep was fine since they where making an adaption of the original comic & the comics are in a wierder cannon. But I feel like Big Finish for the most part can be considered cannon & some of the books as they filled in the gap & all. Obviously Doctor who has no cannon really but when you directly say something its hard to look back at the older stuff as cannon.
Us classic fans are so well aware that Revelation of the Daleks cut the Doctor’s final line about taking Peri to Blackpool. We all think of it as the first adventure that we ‘lost’ during the hiatus. It seems a shame for The Giggle to insist that the Doctor hasn’t encountered the Toymaker again since Hartnell and therefore outright dismiss The Nightmare Fair
@@AurumEtAes I found it especially bad because the only available in their original form stories with the Toymaker. Well kinda but I listened to it in preparation for the new episode as the original isn't available in full.
Disappointed to see and hear so many AI generated elements in this video, for me whenever generative AI is used in a project it undermines the effort put into other areas. Having been subscribed a number of years I know the team is better than this and I hope this is just a one-off miss-step.
We have no real evidence of that beyond their surnames. Steven offers it as a suggestion, and the Doctor goes along with it, probably to shut him up about leaving Anne to die.
@@MuchWhittering Doctor: “I’m so sorry about leaving Anne to die.” Steven: “Dodo has the same last name. That means she survived.” Doctor: “Oh well that’s alright then.”
Well this was bloody good. We need more please. If only this was on the Blu-ray release rather then that (very odd) escape room game thingy., and that interview with Carmen Silvera, which sounded like it was recorded in a toilet bowl.
As Toby Hadoke very aptly put it 'if everybody else involved in a production was dead, and Donald Tosh could claim he had done something, he claimed he had done it'
It’s a bit like the reverse of JNT, where any and all bad decisions are now attributed to him! 😅
As . Australian free to air bbc dedicsted channel Abctv .. played it about every 3 years .. 1969. 1974 .. 1980 .1985 was last time i saw it . I dont remember other actors . I just remember the toy puzzle . & william hartnells reaction .. as he walked away .. i thought ah glad i wont have to talk about that episode ever . Lol . Its one of those episodes we forget easy ,, 1985 sylvester mcCoy was doing pantomime theatre shows in austraia ,, so we had drwho set in australia & new zealand ,, right at the time that both Lord of the Rings & Planet of the apes scene location scouts were scanning for more post ~hollywood ~ unusual film locations
@acewickhamyoshi8330 the full story aired in 85?
@@jayjlevans2000 yes ,, australia played all episodes daily from 1973 anniversary ,, 1983 ..oh 5 days a week, during march 30~ to october ~ 22 april.. yes ,, celestial toymaker june ,,
@@acewickhamyoshi8330If that’s the case then why are three of its episodes STILL MISSING? Would’ve thought ABC would’ve sent their copies back by now…🧐
My Aunt was good friends with Terry Nation. Only found out a few months ago when she was talking about a mutual friend that lived on the Isle of Wight and mentioned him. I asked if he was a writer, and she calmly said ‘oh yes, he invented the Daleks’ as if it was nothing.
Look, I know we're all here for Daleks, but it is always an immense pleasure to see you guys branch out into other subject matters. Jack the Ripper, The Wheel in Space, and now the Celestial Toymaker. You bring a much-needed fact-based (with actual, proper documentation!) approach to your videos that always makes the audience walk away feeling the better for having learned all that you have. The fact that it's presented in an entertaining way only further proves the mastery of your craft. Can't wait to see what's next!
An hour long video taking an almost irrelevant subject and breaking it down into almost obsessive detail? God yes, more please
Could have been twenty mins longer if it discussed Hartnell’s absence in more detail
@@chriswinwood6501 What about the time someone said the N word in the story?
Thing is, as you retell things that happened to you years ago- even decades ago - they become more and more stories and less historically accurate-you just have to listen to successive retellings of the same events down the years by Jon Pertwee or Terrance Dicks to see how aspects “slip” somewhat to make the stories “better”. And who among us doesn’t tweak an anecdote to make ourselves more the hero - or indeed antihero - of a funny story? People’s memories are not the best foundation for history-documents and evidence are.
That's my view entirely. The paperwork doesn't lie.
Paperwork can mislead. But it does need to be at the heart of a thorough examination.
who among us remembers that the 6th Doctor almost said his name out loud?
While walking on Ravolox (when we see it back from the trial) he says to Perri something akin to :"I could settle down and live my life here and write my memoirs. The memoirs of Doctor..." AND there Perri interrupts him. In his post-regeneration hubris the 6th almost told us his name!!
George and Margaret were basically a "meme" before that word got turned into a type of picture joke. And thank you for this episode, stepping out of the Dalek venue for a while. And thank you for the new word "materteral" which I didn't know either.
It's always neat seeing pop-culture references in prior decades I wasn't alive for. :D
Incredible work, seriously! Thrown whole new light on my favourite story. I'm especially pleased to now understand why Dodo was written as thick as bricks. And Graeme Allan's score is very punctilious indeed. I'm recommending this video to friends & family.
Incredible research, lads. Happy to hear cameos from the Missing Episodes Podcast hosts!
Good stuff. On the idea that DODO is conceived to be typed over ANNE, there are a couple of occasions in Bell of Doom’s script where this has happened, and one where it’s failed to. Take a look! J
Donald Tosh in ‘absolutely full of s***’ shock 😂
Tosh by name
Tosh by nature
Or he was misremembering or he just said yeah fuc_ it everybody is dead nobody can deny my claims.
I'd been saying it for years and it was nice to finally have enough definite evidence to disprove him.
Materteral - pertaining to, or in the manner of, an aunt. What a perfectly cromulent word!
Brilliant detailed, fascinating work Sir ! I may be able to add to it...
I used to work at the BBC,TV centre initially, but in the late 80s I worked at BBC Enterprises at Woodland. I was a Video Tape engineer, but by that time the job description had changed to 'Operator'. This irritated all of us as we most certainly needed engineering knowledge to make the Quadruplex VT machines work.
As a long time Dr Who fan, my father and latterly I myself actually working on the show, and once it had been shelved - whatever - I wanted it back. The best I could do was to attempt to recondition episodes that were not acceptable for sale due to the masters having been wiped. So... a friend, Keith Hunter managed to get colour 525 copies of Terror of the Autons via Ian Levine. In the down time at BBC Ents I got them converted to 625. Keith and I wondered if there was any chance of adding the colour from the multi-gen, twice converted ex US copies to the monochrome Film Recording copies the BBC still had. The short story was - that indeed it was possible, but only just.
And now the relevant bit. Somehow or another, I really can't recall, a chap called Peter Lydiard White watched me do the experiments. He was utterly delighted by the results, crude as they were. We chatted a lot as I fiddled with settings and such, and he said he had been the PA on Toymaker. I think he may have called it Toy Master, I certainly did for years.
He proudly told me that he had come up with the Trilogic game !
I note the image of the script names a N. Lydiard White as the P.A. I presume this was him. He said he was called 'Snowy white' at the time.
I hoped he would help get funding for the reccolorisation process, but I heard that he had a non fatal heart attack shortly after I saw him. I have seen no evidence he had anything to do with Toymaker until I saw the script page in this video.
Well, I think it's interesting :-)
Fascinating thank you!
Yes, that's the same Snowy.
Toymaker was his second story, he'd already done The Space Museum, and went on to do The War Machines, The Tomb of the Cybermen, The Ice Warriors and The Space Pirates.
@@DVB0 I wonder if he has any memorabilia - I'm sure he has more stories !
@@tortysoft I understand that he died some years ago.
@@DVB0 I am very sorry to hear that.He struck me as being a really nice chap, utterly loved Dr Who. RIP Snowy White.
One small but fun fact is that Clara (the clown that is, not the Impossible Girl) actually makes a very brief camio in one of the SJA stories (I think that it was the one with the killer clown, I forget the name of the story as I'm more of a fan of the Classic Series) In the shape of a photo found online while Sarah is looking for information about clowns.
This gives us the hint that there would have indeed been an actual clown, named Clara, who would have played against the Toymaker ( maybe alongside another one named Joey) and lost, thus she would have become one of the Toymakers playthings.
Also one does have to also remember that Cyril would most likely have once been a fat English, (maybe from a Public School) who would have been lured into playing a game with the Toymaker in return for food, and lost.
Wow that's a bit close for comfort....
I've often wondered if in the Deadly Assasin, when the Doctor is on the cliff edge and wipes the sand off the mirror, if that (only slightly different looking) laughing clown was a nod to the Toymaker episode? Only because that story has a few nods like the Kaled and his horse on the battlefield, etc.
You could also say that the Toymaker used Cyril in much the same way that young boys at the time would play with their Action Man figures or young girls would play with their Barbies in that he would change his outfits in order for him to have different 'roles' or 'play patterns' as they were figures that one was able to change their clothing and hwve them as more or less your own custom toys.
That is why Action Man was not only marketed as army based toyline but also as a policeman a fireman and a footballer, among others....
I don't think Action Man was released in Britain until the summer of 1966, after Toymaker was shown.
@DVB0 True, but in the USA their was GI Joe, and in any case children do often use the same exact toys in different play patterns as they see fit.
The Toymaker would have been no different...
One of the things that helped Action Man's longevity in Britain was the name. In America GI Joe tied the toy to the war Vietnam then Korea which were becoming unpopular in the States. In Britain Action Man extended into other character types. Part of my MSc research included men's recollections of playing Action Man. Some used the black jumper and other clothes to genre-shift the toy, turning him into a cool spy such as Ilya Kuryakin The Man from UNCLE
@@TymbusAction-Man was great, my brother and I had a few as kids 😄
@@SportyMabamba Yeah, a mate up the road had loads of army based Action Men and Jeeps and maybe a tank! I had the arctic explorer and scuba diver, my brother had the astronaut and capsule!
This was fascinating! I knew The Celestial Toymaker had gone through script changes but I had no idea the extent of it or the changing of hands throughout. I didn’t feel at all like I was watching this for an hour, I could’ve happily sat here for double the runtime lol. Amazing detective work!
An hour-long special project taking a "deep dive" into the subject of 'who wrote what', and it's still more interesting than watching the actual programme was! Very rewarding to see the great team at Dalek 63-88 branching out into this sort of research. They're diligent, thoughtful and they don't miss a trick. And the narration, as ever, is charmingly detached from its obsessive thesis, amiable and particular -- rather like listening to a mildly amused dose of valium.
Great investigation👍 Loved the little dive into the pop culture of the pre-Doctor Who era!
Fascinating video. Thanks so much for all your amazing work researching and creating this doco. Very much enjoyed.
So Donald is talking Tosh? This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this over the years!
Considering the interview with Tosh was from 1992, when he was in his late 50s, I think we can probably safely exclude dementia and general forgetfulness and assume he thought "Well, everyone else is dead (Gerry Davis died in 1991), I can embellish the story all I like."
The most favourable interpretation is he thought making all this stuff up would have made more of an article than simply admitting he didn't play much of a role in the final draft. Less favourably, he resigned in support of producer John Wiles and perhaps felt no duty to be accurate about a period of his life underpinned by staff fall-outs, animosity towards Gerry Davis, and numerous scriptwriting problems (not just with The Celestial Toymaker).
I'd love to hear a Big Finish version of the original Hayles script, but it's a fair bet any copy of it is long gone.
It's definite that there's no trace of it anywhere. The Hayles estate don't have it - though they do have many of his unmade storylines.
@@DVB0i am thinking on doing a article on the life and work of mr Hayles. How easy would it be to contact his estate. Via the BBC.
@@Adam-gt9tq They may be able to pass it on to whever his literary agent is now to deal with.
@@DVB0 David thanks I will consider that. i was inspired by the looking for documentaries and other researches including you own.
Have to say I found the toy maker episode rather boring,didn’t appeal to a 11 year old at all.
Nice one, thanks to the team for all their hard work on this one.
I'd never noticed before how much the younger Michael Gough looks like Leonard Nimoy.
Would have been interesting had he been in the states and available when Star Trek TOS Season 2 hadn’t started production including the dispute between Leonard Nimoy and Gene Roddenberry.
Fascination script archaeology. Congratulations too all involved in unravelling the past.
Superb documentary, beautifully produced as always. Thanks Gav & co!
One interesting aside in ‘Allo Allo’ a production still of the clown is used as a photo of Fanny, Edith played by Silvaria’s mother, as a young circus performer.
That's certainly a tidbit to file away!
Gerry Davis’s foreword to the novelisation makes interesting reading. According to that he was dispatching his rewritten pages to the studio every three hours.
Fascinating!
I think Dodo is one of the companions who was very poorly handled by the writers, and reusing scripts intended for a different character helps explain the inconsistent treatment.
Creating new companion characters and then wishing they hadn’t, or casting an actor and then finding the actor doesn’t want a long running role, or so many other problems. From Vicki’s departure to Victoria’s arrival, the producers really were all over the place for a couple of years , and sometimes it reallly shows
Quite interesting that this discussion of changes in scripts and ideas is more engaging than the final episode we got.
I like how the Toymaker is as nebulous as the myths as his own story is
Okay well this was fascinating! And also really well told, because it didn't feel at all like I'd just watched an hour long video.
It felt longer because of the background music, which doesn't feel needed given the quality and strength of spoken research?
Tosh by name, Tosh by nature.
So, with context "George and Margaret" is actually a really funny contemporary joke. They are like Mrs Mainwaring or Cataloguer Prink :) In a strange, ironic way, not appearing in it at all is still funny LOL
Great research! Can I ask was William Hartnell going to be replaced when made invisable or was this another myth?
There's no surviving paperwork to confirm or deny that it wasn't part of Wiles' intention (perhaps in the Tosh draft in December, when the rumblings about Hartnell's exit start). There's no indication from other scripts from around that period so I suspect it didn't get very far.
By the time the story was made Hartnell had already been recontracted for the rest of the third season in any case.
I was struck by the similarities of the robot depicted in the Celestial Toymaker and BBC TV version of Marvin the Paranoid Android from the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I'm aware that Douglas Adams wrote Dr Who scripts and would have had access to Dr Who archives, but who designed Marvin?
The Toymaker entrapped people in his playroom but offered them a chance of escape, it wasn't long afterwards that Patrick McGoohan dropped Dangerman and created the Prisoner TV series. McGoohan already knew about Inverlair Lodge a place where people who knew too much were held during the war, he wanted to add video surveillance, mind altering drugs and mind control to the mix.
Did Patrick Mcgoohan see the Celestial Toymaker and use it for the inspiration of No 2, and Rover the robot (played by a weather balloon)?
Marvin was probably designed by a collaboration between HHGTTG production designer Andrew Howe-Davis and costume designer Dee Robson, perhaps with a dash of Douglas Adams - depending I suppose on whether our plastic pal who's fun to be with qualifies as a costume or a prop. I think the similarity between the two robots is largely a coincidence, both being essentially a traditional box on legs, and Marvin's radio incarnation is undescribed.
The rover robot looks suspiciously like a Dalek. Lots of 60's spy/action series used carnivalesque themes and settings, eg the Avengers.
*Great research, well presented!* ⭐😃👍
As always, love all your hard work in research!
My word, you’ve finally become actual detectives! This Tosh fellow sounds well named…
Thanks guys, love your work.
I don't think Donald Tosh is a "liar" of any kind. His interviews are always good.
I suspect if you edit or rewrite every script, you might remember more of it as your work years later.
Brilliant suff as usual Gav. Really enjoyed this.
The toymakers gown is adapted from Mark Eden's costume in Marco Polo
A lovely video… I remember the story and I was a friend of Gerry so the whole thing has a little extra connection for me. Wonderful!
It's taken a bit to get round to this video, but what a corker! As a Canadian lass that wasn't even thought of when this serial was made, it's fascinating to see some of the veil pulled back. Excellent documentary!
Another great vid that’s very well narrated, thank you!
Fascinating! An hour long and I still wanted more at the end!
This is absolutely fascinating, and some amazing research.
Without meeting any of the participants, it's difficult to know who to believe. It's a confused and troubled story from what seems to have been a confused and troubled time. As Terrance Dicks said later about rewrites: 'It's not getting better - It's getting worse!'
Something tells me he’d hate Gene Roddenberry for doing exactly that behind the writers’ backs throughout Star Trek TOS. So many that it’s difficult to know what scripts he did rewrites on or who else did the script changes.
@@rayvenkman2087 Marc Cushman's three books has all the rewrite dates for TOS, indicating who did the rewriting....
@@DVB0 I have all three volumes.
Absolutely fascinating. Great job!
Fantastically done!
I am pausing after the intro, just to say that I am utterly hooked.
Now, back to the meat of the video!
You have a wonderful historical effort on display here. As someone who has watched "Toymaker" (in recon form, haven't got the animation yet) I remember struggling a lot to make sense of the story's guest cast, in particular the fact that Cyril seemed to be the same person every time while the others weren't. Now, it all makes a lot more sense. Deeply fascinating to see how much of the accepted history of this story's production has turned out to be completely wrong.
Just got the blu-ray for Father's Day, watched it, and then a video from my favorite Dr. Who archivists pops up!
Amazing work by all, thank you
So punctiliously researched that I actually wonder if the pics of the mysterious aunt and uncle were actually Brian Hayles’s aunt and uncle. Fanny Cradock’s appearance got a round of applauze. More of this sort of thing!
Was Hartnell’s two week absence always part of the plan for this?
A brilliant piece of work, in both technical and research terms. Absolutely loved it. Well done to all. Quite punctilious!
Just begun watching, as one of the 3 fans of the original Toymaker serial this ought to be interesting
Who’s the other two?
Guests whose main flaw is that they never stay long ... sound like perfect guests to me ;-)
Most punctilious. Your best video to date.
Fantastic video, I've been rewatching all of your prior episodes while waiting for this one, and am constantly amazed at your level of detailed research.
I've seen a couple of other people understandably perturbed by the use of AI generated visuals, and I was wondering if in future you'd at least distinguish which photos are AI generated, and which are pre-existing. It might just be me being me, but the presence of un-noted AI generated visuals give a sort of... lingering doubt to surrounding images. While I appreciate that they may be useful for relaying a point, it probably doesn't help a documentary to have the audience unsure if what they're looking at is actually real!
I have to say, this deep dive script history breakdown is flipping awesome! I love it!
Brilliant stuff thank you! x
Awesome! I realise normal people would be bored silly by this type of thing... But I was gripped! It didn't seem like 54 minutes... it flew by. (Oh I am just sad!)
Hello from North America
Lies about the Toymaker scripts??? Wait.... You mean to tell me it wasn't written by Hulk Hogan?
Changes appearance but still the same character? Obviously Cyril is a Time Lord.
Great research! I love these little sidesteps into other areas beyond the Daleks. Thank you for finally explaining George and Margaret! I've gone and found the film on TH-cam. It's amazing how much myth has been taken as fact over the years, especially with most of the paperwork still in the archives! And it's nice to see Brian Hayles get his proper recognition.
Most of the paperwork for the story doesn't exist (same with almost all of John Wiles' stories except for 'Master Plan' - and even then that's missing a big chunk of the production paperwork).
What there is has been pieced together from what few random sources survive. Mostly by accident in other files.
You could say that Cryil was the Toymaker's very own 'Fation Boy' LOL
I remember seeing the available episode years ago and honestly it was pretty disturbing. I'd still be curious to see the whole story although i don't think in the manner which they've animated it. I do rather like that bit about Hale basically asking his now boss, can I do this thing as a bit of a welcome gift
What an amazing video! Absolutely brilliant stuff, many thanks. I do have a question about the use of the 'three spaces' tells in the scripts -- you say that this differentiates between the original (Brian Hayles) script and the numerous later additions but I was under the impression that the finished camera and rehearsal scripts were typed up by BBC secretaries (not sure of proper job title so I'll keep secretary) and not by the original writers. My inference from your video is that the secretary who typed up Hayles' *original* scripts had this 3-space mannerism but that the later additions were by other secretaries that did not. Is this a reasonable reading of your video?
What was the reasoning the production soured on Maureen? I know she was conflicted to stay or leave the program at that point
She was very vocal about disliking the scripts for Galaxy 4 (among others) and expressed her disapproval that she was being given less and less to do. Complained too often. So they wrote her out to start planning their own new companion(s).
Do you have any further information on the photograph of the man typing in the rain (shown at the 50 min and 12 second mark)? Is it the writer himself, or is it just a stock image? I'd love to know the story behind it.
I like every aspect of the animated realm of the Toymaker, just not the horrible character designs.
I don't know why some people insist on those horribly designed faces.
The environments 10/10
Where have you been all my life? Fantastic work, instant sub.
Also as it happens I have been inspired to listen to my CD of 'The Celestial Toymaker' the first three episodes via the CD (which is a vintage single release which has a home in between my DVD's of 'The Ark' and 'The Gunfighters') and the fourth one via my much loved copy of the 'Lost in Time' DVD (I'm yet to buy the Blray the cartoon of the entire story that is, for obvious reasons) thanks to this very documentary.
quite a tangled web
I find the idea that the play George and Margorot is in someway canon to Dr Who, with the reason that they never show up being that they were kidnapped by the Toymaker, to be very amusing
There's nothing wrong with Chinese puzzles. Might as well complain about Russian dolls, Swiss watches, American cowboys, or Irish poetry.
I think this might be your most punctilious video yet!
Donald Tosh talking tosh about the extent of script and storyline fleshing-out and rewrites? Who knew? (Well, Terry Nation knew...)
Uh... what's the deal with all the AI generated images?
Aren’t you smart enough to figure it out? You honestly don’t know what the deal is?
@@flyhylandas far as I can find there hasn't been any allusion to it or elaboration on 6388's official channels and it's just been suddenly introduced, so if you have any info I'd appreciate if you shared.
Don’t forget to hit the notification bell… OF DOOM. Hahahahahahahahahahaha 😂😂😂😂 I have GOT to try stand up.
Stand up and walk out the room….
@@Dalek6388 I used to like you Jon
I used to like your jokes
OOh, nice to see the fanzine I edited - 23-11-63 - is cited. The interview was arranged and conducted by Gary Hopkins. It was published over two issues.Sadly, Hayles died after the first issue was published. Not wishing to be disrespectful, we actually debated about publishing the second part ! I think it's great that people are now able to use documentation alongside recollections
I always thought The Toymaker a bit punctilious.
Punctilious research as always!
Thanks, I really enjoyed this video. It was so punctilious.
Great work here! I see you’re getting some pushback from using AI imagery to help illustrate your point.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think it’s an issue on something like this. And that’s from someone who is not really a fan of the AI surge we’re seeing lately. This is clearly a non-profit passion project, and you’re not replacing an artist, you’re merely incorporating visuals that wouldn’t be there at all otherwise.
I don't mean to be rude but the introduction of ai imagery is a bit muddling. Generally these videos appear to have used either genuinely contenporary, visually appropriate, or more visibly intentionally modified images, so it rather muddled the overall image of the, well, imagery. It also does not help that the effects applied on actual photos combined with generated images with strange artifacring someahat makes it difficult to tell what images are genuine and makes the production feel less legitimate...
Thanks!
Maybe lay off with the AI generated images. Not the best move to use a tool that cobbles together an image without the original artists' consent.
That’s not how AI image generation works. That’s like saying if you go to a zoo, see a bunch of giraffes then go home and draw a picture of a giraffe based on what you saw that day, you’ve stolen the image of the giraffes.
I'll let you know when we have AI, in about a thousand years.
One of the best researched Who video documentaries I have had the pleasure to watch, genuinely learnt a lot from this.
Well that’s just made me want to read the original scripts even more. Shame no one asked Hales what was different about it.
When Hayles died in 1978 nobody really knew that there had been endless rewrites done on Toymaker.
"George & Margaret" sounds like the inspiration for an early episode of ALL IN THE FAMILY, where George Jefferson is invited to dinner. Archie is annoyed, he wanted to go to the ballgame. Archie & his guest argue about things like "What makes you think God isn't black?" At the end, the guest is revealed to really be HENRY Jefferson, George's brother. What happened to George, Archie asks. "Oh, he went to the BALLGAME."
Hayles NOT Hailes
Guys I LOVE your videos! ...Really interesting, amazing research and beautifully put together. I have a question: I have a childhood memory from maybe the early-mid 80s where a group of people are being attacked by Daleks in a room with a table and there is a small Dalek that is cornering some children. Did I completely dream this up or is there something that exists that I'm mis-remembering?? Very grateful for any clues.
Thank you for the kind comments.
The only thing I can think of that you may be remembering is the Spike Milligan comedy sketch that takes place in a room with a table and has a small Dalek. Its not as you describe but similar.
@@Dalek6388 ahh yes I know the Spike sketch (put him in the curry...) I don't think it was that but thinking about it I could even have misinterpreted Revelation of the Daleks and the model shot of a hovering Dalek as being a mini-one?? Anyhow, look forward to more of your Who-based archeology :)
One thing I disliked about this episode was how it retconned the black pool episode. Like its pretty clear that it would've been made had the BBC not been trying to shut the show down & due to that I feel like that episode should've been referenced. The Meep was fine since they where making an adaption of the original comic & the comics are in a wierder cannon. But I feel like Big Finish for the most part can be considered cannon & some of the books as they filled in the gap & all. Obviously Doctor who has no cannon really but when you directly say something its hard to look back at the older stuff as cannon.
Us classic fans are so well aware that Revelation of the Daleks cut the Doctor’s final line about taking Peri to Blackpool. We all think of it as the first adventure that we ‘lost’ during the hiatus. It seems a shame for The Giggle to insist that the Doctor hasn’t encountered the Toymaker again since Hartnell and therefore outright dismiss The Nightmare Fair
@@AurumEtAes I found it especially bad because the only available in their original form stories with the Toymaker. Well kinda but I listened to it in preparation for the new episode as the original isn't available in full.
The reproduction of the tin toy robot is very impressive. I had one exactly like it as a child. I wonder what happened to the prop?
Either dissembled, scrapped or modified after this story for a different program likely.
Disappointed to see and hear so many AI generated elements in this video, for me whenever generative AI is used in a project it undermines the effort put into other areas.
Having been subscribed a number of years I know the team is better than this and I hope this is just a one-off miss-step.
Isn’t Dodo Anne’s descendant? As in Anne survived the massacre and she moved to Britain and her linage continued
We have no real evidence of that beyond their surnames. Steven offers it as a suggestion, and the Doctor goes along with it, probably to shut him up about leaving Anne to die.
@@MuchWhittering
Doctor: “I’m so sorry about leaving Anne to die.”
Steven: “Dodo has the same last name. That means she survived.”
Doctor: “Oh well that’s alright then.”
Well this was bloody good. We need more please. If only this was on the Blu-ray release rather then that (very odd) escape room game thingy., and that interview with Carmen Silvera, which sounded like it was recorded in a toilet bowl.
There's no SOUND help me😮
Is that AI artwork at 50:53?